Identifier,913045
Interviewee,Ursula Korniechouk
Date,3/28/14
Interviewer,Molly Schnoke
Abstract,"Ursula Korniechouk, a native of Germany, describes her life in Germany and the experiences she had in Cleveland. Growing up during World War Two had a tremendous affect on Korniechouk. Her father was outspoken against the Hitler regime, and her mother was concerned that he would be apprehended by the authorities. She came to Cleveland because of her husband, and she quickly became acquainted with the racial divide in Cleveland. She was shocked at how people could be so racist in a country that was supposed to be free. In the late 1960s, she needed to step back from being a political activist and moved into working fulltime to support her family. She began working for the Cleveland Museum of Art and created outreach programs that tried to connect the museum to the general public. She end by reiterating how suprised and heartbroken she was once she realized how deep and pervasive the racial problem was in this country."
Tags,"Germany, Nuremburg, bauhaus, World War 2, Hitler, concentration camps, school, education, Spain, arts, culture, academia, Cleveland, Cleveland Museum of Art, violence, languages, racism, African American, Martin Luther King, Hough Riots, Carl Stokes, Near West Side, University Circle, Sherman Lee, Nottingham Spirk"
Special Notes,Ursula is German with a little accent
0,"Introductions, born January 31, 1932 in Nuremburg (Northern Bavaria) called Roth (sp?); She can remember a time before she could walk when she was with her father in his studio and she was ""parked"" in a wastepaper basket"
1,"Her father was a pastor and the studio was his study; Says that they were very lucky because the original house for the pastor of the town was built in the 1300s and was falling apart, so the town built a new parsonage and they had a say in how it was built - bauhaus style"
2,They lived in the most elevated place in the town - where the church was; everything was around the church square and had a very medieval layout
3,She loves raw potato dumplings and sour braten; World War 2 really saw the city bombed because it was home to the military airport of nuremburg
4,"she remembers these days clearer than what came after them; her father was in opposition to Hitler - and saw vandalism against their parsonage, as a result of a Sunday sermon; the outside world was strange"
5,"Family life was fairy tale like, but the outside world was dangerous to her; For her World War 2 started when Hitler annexed Austria because of all of the parades that occurred"
6,"She was six years old when they annexed Austria, and she saw her mother crying; She says that her mother said that she understands the Catholic position of not allowing priests to marry because she felt endangered by her husband's remarks"
7,"They stayed in Germany in that small town until February 1947, they then moved to a university town in 1947; She explains the difference between German grade school and American grade school"
8,"She had to commute by train to Nuremburg for her first year (an hour) but it was bombed out and evacuated to the Alps, but under the Hitler Youth and her parents would not let her go - they found a different school for her"
9,"They found this school 22 miles south of Roth, which was an all-boys school that was converted to included girls, it was not so ""Hitler-ized"" in fact some professers were not even part of the party, which was unheard of"
10,"Talks about the handwriting changes that Hitler demanded in the schools, and how she liked the old angular writing"
11,The teachers that allowed her to remain in the old angular writing were not pro-hitler; had to share their school books because by 1942-43 the war had taken its toll
12,"She says that no one told the kids, including her, what was going on - not even concentration camps - because they were afraid that the kids would run their mouths and the adults would end up in concentration camps"
13,She remembers first hearing the phrase concentration camp in the first grade - a girl pinched her and told her that her dad was going to be in Dachau concentration camp and she told her parents and her mother explained that it was a kind of prison for people who were not necessarily bad
14,"The town, even though it was close to Nuremburg was not bombed much; the only damage was from bombs that destroyed bridges to deter the allies; The town fell in April 20, 1945; The SS unit that was supposed to defend the town was Hungarian"
15,"The Hungarian SS had disappeared when they were supposed to defend the town and blow the bridges - except the houses were blown around the bridges - blamed it on the Hungarians who did not know how to read German (jokingly); Her town was not damaged much, but 3-4miles out was massage damage"
16,Nearly all houses were peppered with machine guns especially in the last days; it was a daily experience; but now it seems like a bad dream
17,"She realizes now how much she got used to things at the time, sounds more dramatic than it was; Allied forces came through her town - Americans - came in on their tanks; She has good and bad things; She was most shocked by how dirty these men were - littered etc"
18,She also detested how vulgar these troops looked; She did like how sensitive some of them were; She graduated high school in 1950 and by that time they moved to another town: Erlangen
19,"Her parents decided that their kids needed a more open world-view, and they got it; Had a great-uncle was a rich man who offered to pay for her university studies"
20,"He sent her to study in various places - Lauzanne in Switzerland for one year, London for a year, Madrid for a year, and she was supposed to go to Florence for a year - always attracted to the arts, but her mother discouraged it from a professional standpoint"
21,"Regardless of her mother, she wanted to study art and literary studies - wanted to become a literary translator - she thought that if people across nations were able to read each other's great works they wouldn't fight so much;"
22,What this dream meant is that she could not do a traditional academic - linear- path; she thought low of the academic world because she thought that they did not do enough to combat Hitler
23,"Not just German academia, but the world over; She has sinced changed her mind; but at the time she dealt with good books to learn; chronicles what she did in London and Madrid"
24,"In London, she took up the case of those poor who were voiceless; she got certifications from universities, but not in an orderly path"
25,"She finished her first year of study in Spain, but after she stayed with a family in Spain instead of going to Florence where she became a teacher's assistant"
26,"Her parents were not interested in her staying in Spain without studying so they recalled her home; She eventually married a man, but she was not that in love with him - but she was his sidekick and would quell family fights"
27,"She says that one day this man showed up in Erlangen on a Vespa drove all the way from Madrid - to ask her to marry him, swept her off her feet; told him to go back to Madrid and spend 6 months and if he still felt the way he did then she would marry him, she did but she doesn't think that people should get married like that"
28,"They got married in 1955, lived in Madrid; Madrid was ""dreamy"" during those years; She learned how to drive in an Austin from 1923 - it was wooden"
29,"Describes her driving lessons,with an old car surrounded by old cars that kept breaking down; these cars were kept together because people could not buy cars in Spain; says that the quality of the repairs were fantastic because they did not have mass production"
30,Says that they did not spend a lot of time with entertainment because they did not have very much money. They spent 5 years in Spain and then came to Cleveland
31,"She found Cleveland pretty ugly in 1960s, but she found the smokestacks in the flats - hundreds of them - producing different colors smoke, she was moved by that and loved it; She also loved the bridges; they came here because her husband needed work and he needed steel mills to work on as an engineer"
32,"Cleveland fit the bill as a steel town or a heavy-industry town; They lived in Parma, and they did not even realize that Parma was not included in Cleveland; found the Cleveland Museum of Art, quickly"
33,"She got to experience Cleveland from a different angle than most people; For Christmas she got into the habit of giving everyone close to her gifts that were usually homemade, but in Cleveland she did not have the facilities; so she bought a small enameling kiln at a garage sale; and she needed a book that tought her how to enamel - someone told her she could get the book at the Karamu"
34,"She thought that the Karamu was a shop and she looked it up in the phonebook, she went there and it wasn't a shop or a department store - it was a community center that was empty other than some children and a tall, black woman"
35,"She explains why she's there, and this woman asked where Ursula is from because of her accent - told her she is originally German to which the woman responded in German and how happy she was to find someone who spoke German; helped her find enameling supplies - exchanged information and the woman asked if they could meet with their children downtown to speak German"
36,"She agreed, but it took her time to realize that this sort of consorting was not done between members of different races; This woman clued her in on the racism in the country and she couldn't believe it at all - became very sensitive on the issue and very critical of white cleveland "
37,"Explains how this woman learned German - scholarship to Denmark and Germany for a two years; She did not pay attention to where they met because she did not know any better; in 1963 they marched on Washington; it took until 1964, for her to have a decisive moment regarding race"
38,She saw on the television her friend being hauled away by the cops from Glenville; She was very worried about her friend; Her friend's family was surprised that a white woman would be interested in her; They became close friends and created a program to bring African American students to carry the post in Parma
39,"They were able to organize through her connections in Karamu; She never felt in danger because of the black people in her neighborhood, but her neighbors were ok, except she got a couple of threatening anonymous phone calls; She never felt in danger going to Karamu House either"
40,"When Martin Luther King was killed she called St. Paul's (Cleveland Heights), St. John's downtown, Trinity Cathedral, to ring the bell and none of them did"
41,"None of these churches wanted to stick their necks out; She recalls the the 1966 Hough riots, her friend was at the art museum and she called Ursula"
42,Her friend asked to be picked up because the riots had closed everything down; She wanted to drive through Chester and the national guard asked her what her business was and she had a police escort; She was not afraid because she did notice anything
43,"The first time she felt fear was two days later at Parmatown Mall with her friend who was not her usual self - her friend kept thinking that if she were sitting at the wheel she would have gone to jail, but since it was Ursula she got an escort"
44,"Her friend was very militant and Ursula became militant, except for the issue of Black violence - Ursula said she would not walk with someone with a gun - this frightened Ursula"
45,"She figured out what her neighbors felt about her: the person behind her was in agreement, but the person down the street wanted to make her out to be the devil; 1967, she volunteered for Carl Stokes for mayor"
46,"She was on the ground to help people register, she would go from house to house and then drive people to register them, but she never felt any danger"
47,"Her husband was afraid for her; She was happy that Stokes won, but she was upset that he become corrupt; glad that they made headway in racial relations"
48,Talks about the different African American organizations that she got close to through her friends - she saw these things as a person neither white nor black; Her friend moved to Tennessee to become a head librarian and they lost sight of their friendship
49,"She kept up with registering people, she would register people for the Near West Side who were hispanic; She could expain to people why they should vote because they couldn't read the newspaper - it was different from African American communities"
50,She was upset with the African American community for not helping the latino community - thought it was discrimination; She worked for the hispanic community in 1968
51,She got a fulltime job after the 1968 elections and it took every ounce of her time - She got a job at the CMA by a fluke; She figured out that her husband had mental problems and couldn't hold a job
52,"She looked and looked for a job but couldn't find anything; She went to an agency that specialized in helping ""genteel"" women, she could speak languages but people did not want to teach"
53,She learned about America and the American way and it was things she did not like; She had some fascinating assignments working for big companies who had people come in from abroad - licensing agreements- well paid but not consistant only from word of mouth
54,Gives one example of a case she that proved to be significant in a federal case; She got this call through word of mouth and something she translated
55,"Continues to give the path on which she got the call for this federal case that dealt with Candian Bankers, from then on she would get odd jobs that were very interesting"
56,She had six weeks with two engineers from Argentina to help them deal with huge machinery that they wanted to install in Argentina - exciting; But when it came to looking for a job she was lost
57,She went to the agency and said she needs something but she can't even typewrite; she saw an ad at the agency for the CMA
58,She asked about it and the lady said it was too far beneath her in the education department; she demanded it so she could get her foot in the door
59,"She got that job, but it did not last more than 2 months - hired for a traveling exhibition - 19th century German painting; Describes what they had to do surrounding the exhibition"
60,"Says that not many people in the museum knew about 19th German painting, but she knew because of going to high school in Germany and loving literature; The art museum people said the 19th century was French not German"
61,She rebutted and said that the American 19th century painters studied in Germany - so she did the audio/visual for the show;
62,"She made a slide show and the curators and the director said she is now promoted to instructor, and she did it even though she did not have a master's - she would often give classes on things she knew little about - got her fired up"
63,She would also have to substitute for her boss to teach at Case Western Reserve - calls it a quick apprenticeship
64,She was then called in to be Sherman Lee's assistant (he was the director) she told him that she wasn't sure if it were a promotion or an execution - he was thunderstruck that she thought this way - it was a promotion but she says she was not the administrative type
65,He took trips around the world at museums around the world and she was tasked with keeping the home base; she did this for 7 years; 
66,"Dealt with a woman who was jealous of her job, but they made a deal Ursula would take the outside community, and this other woman would deal with the Cleveland community; This woman would sabotage Ursula; Sherman Lee asked her about the conflict"
67,"He knew about the conflict, but would not step in; She then transferred to the Cleveland Institute of Art as a response; she thinks that this secretary held too much power over Lee and his family"
68,"When she joined the institute, she worked on researching how much space they actually need at the Institute"
69,"They were debating acquiring the Ford factory, and she found that they should take it over; She had to coordinate the groups to renovate and retrofit the building; Says there were squatters in the building"
70,The building is huge and there were different types of squatters on different floors; even motorcycle gangs that would race in the building; Nottingham Spirk was in that building and actually paid rent
71,"She did not go alone, she needed security and had police; to get people out who were reluctant - they threatened with lawsuits - had a railroad trestle"
72,"She wanted to preserve the trestle, but lost that battle; There was a section that was big into drug trafficking and they had to throw them out but she could not deal with it alone because it was too dangerous"
73,Says that this was in 1982-1983 when the Institute took over the building; she thinks that the trouble in University Circle was overblown - she was there for the thinker explosion
74,She did not think it was so dangerous because she did not fear things because she did not carry the baggage - she went out for lunch and convinced people that there was safety in numbers
75,"When the thinker exploded it was around the Kent state shooting - it was an unsettled time and they saw it in that context, and they still do not know who did it"
76,People resented the art museum because they were poor and the museum was very rich; The museums were lumped into the ivory tower and people felt that they were out of touch
77,"She offered to give courses for Hispanic children to break down those walls, but they said they needed to do it for all minorities if they do it for one; She had the idea that she would do it in her own name via the museum"
78,"She applied for grants from several foundations around the city; describes the grants that she wrote and what they outlined - included transportation, time in the galleries, and a hands-on craft"
79,The foundations all came back and said it was too cheap it would mess up their books; She thinks the Cleveland Foundation finally changed their mind because she added a lunch and it would cost enough - 30 saturdays for the whole program
80,"This was one of the reasons that Sherman Lee promoted her; She says that the museum often thought about its position in the public; She would have continued thinking of plans, but she was too busy working for Sherman Lee"
81,"She was and still is heartbroken over how much the racial issue is a problem, says it has gone better but racism has gone underground; Thanks and END OF INTERVIEW"