Nina Swerdlow interview, 2003

Abstract

Nina Swerdlow reflects on her life as a resident of the Tremont neighborhood. Swerdlow discusses her family's Jewish heritage and their immigration from Poland, detailing the cultural and social dynamics of the community during her upbringing. She shares memories of local businesses, community events, and the strong sense of neighborhood identity that characterized Tremont in the mid-20th century. Swerdlow also addresses the challenges faced by the community over the years, including economic decline and demographic shifts, while highlighting the resilience and adaptability of its residents. The interview provides valuable insights into the historical and cultural context of Tremont as experienced by a long-time resident.

Interviewee

Swerdlow, Nina (interviewee)

Project

Tremont History Project

Date

2003

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

45 minutes

Recommended Citation

"Nina Swerdlow interview, 2003" (2003). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 223070.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/1375

Transcript

Interviewer [00:00:03] This is [inaudible] with Ms. Nina Swerdlow and Bob-

Bob Denham [00:00:06] Denham.

Interviewer [00:00:07] Bob Denham. Who are both residents of Tremont. And the first question I’d like to start with is just if you could please state your name and spell it.

Nina Swerdlow [00:00:16] My name is Nina Swerdlow. S W, E, R, D, L, O, W. First name N, I, N, A.

Interviewer [00:00:25] Terrific. That was easy. Alright, and when did you move to Tremont? Or were you born here?

Nina Swerdlow [00:00:31] No, I was born in Munich, Germany. We came in October of 1950. 1950. We came to the States and we were in Tremont right after that.

Interviewer [00:00:45] And you moved to the States with your parents?

Nina Swerdlow [00:00:47] Yes.

Interviewer [00:00:47] Do you know why they chose Tremont?

Nina Swerdlow [00:00:51] Well, at that time, after the war, you had to have a sponsor. And my godfather lived here and he sponsored us. So I remember we lived on- We came to a little house right on Tremont Road.

Interviewer [00:01:06] Okay. Alright. So since you’re from your immigrant in the country, do you speak any other languages?

Nina Swerdlow [00:01:12] Ukrainian.

Interviewer [00:01:12] Ukrainian? Okay. And once your parents moved to the Tremont area, where did they work?

Nina Swerdlow [00:01:20] My mom is the cleaning lady for CEI. Cleveland Electric Illuminating Company. My dad worked in the first. He worked in the steel mills and then he went to Fisher and he worked. There was a company. That’s Fisher Foods. And he worked in [inaudible] department.

Interviewer [00:01:43] Did your father have any prior experience with his jobs?

Nina Swerdlow [00:01:46] He was steelman.

Interviewer [00:01:47] Yeah, he was that.

Nina Swerdlow [00:01:49] He worked in the coal mines since he was a child- [crosstalk] In the Ukraine. And I think butchering, he just- He was actually a blacksmith and butchering, living on the farm and all that, they just learned how to butcher food, so he did that.

Interviewer [00:02:09] And may I ask, why did your parents decide to immigrate to the United States?

Nina Swerdlow [00:02:14] Well, they were in a labor concentration camp during the war. And we just happened to get lucky and be in the United, in the American sector when Germany got divided.

Interviewer [00:02:24] That’s terrific. Okay, and where do you work?

Nina Swerdlow [00:02:27] I work at Cleveland Renaissance Hotel.

Interviewer [00:02:29] Can you start from, like, your first working experience up to that?

Nina Swerdlow [00:02:34] My first working experience, I was in high school. I worked for an attorney. I can’t think of his name. He was in the area. And I just did typing during that, you know, before I went to college, then I went, after I got out of school, I went to work for a law firm. Found out I didn’t like the 9 to 5. And I worked at Jim’s Steakhouse for like 23 years until it closed.

Interviewer [00:03:00] Okay. Where did you go to school? Or high school and then college?

Nina Swerdlow [00:03:05] Well, I went to Scranton School, which was still there, but new building. Then I went to Lincoln High School, which is now Lincoln Junior West or whatever, right on the corner of Clark and Scranton. And then I went to Ohio Northern and Marshall University. And I’m currently going to Tri-C taking classes.

Interviewer [00:03:22] As am I. Terrific. Do you have any memories of World War II? [crosstalk] You don’t?

Nina Swerdlow [00:03:30] No.

Interviewer [00:03:31] Do your parents speak about it at all?

Nina Swerdlow [00:03:33] My father’s deceased. Yeah. He was in the Russian army and my mother, my mother has some vivid memories. She’s- Her thing was like people don’t understand in this country what it’s like to be. You’re standing there. She’s got the German army on one side, the American army on the other side. We don’t understand any of the language. She says, you want to both get the hell out. And she says. And she remembers the bombing. Fourth of July is a hard holiday for her.

Interviewer [00:04:04] Why is that?

Nina Swerdlow [00:04:05] Because of the firecrackers and everything else. And she says she just-

Interviewer [00:04:08] What did she experience the bombing?

Nina Swerdlow [00:04:09] Well, in on her homeland. And then when she was in the labor camp, you know, when they started bombing, because she was in a munitions factory, labor just, you know, she did something you never forget.

Interviewer [00:04:27] Was this a labor camp run by the Germans or the Soviets? [crosstalk]

Nina Swerdlow [00:04:32] They just came in and you were going for a ride. That was it. She says luckily they treated them fairly decent because they needed the- They needed the labor. So.

Interviewer [00:04:45] Are you of Jewish descent?

Nina Swerdlow [00:04:47] No.

Interviewer [00:04:48] Okay. That was probably for the better then. Now, are you or were you ever married?

Nina Swerdlow [00:04:58] Yes, I was. I’m divorced.

Interviewer [00:05:00] Okay. Where did you get- Or did you, I’m sorry, did you marry someone from Tremont?

Nina Swerdlow [00:05:05] No. No.

Interviewer [00:05:07] Where is your- Where was your spouse?

Nina Swerdlow [00:05:09] He was from Strongsville. Suburbs.

Interviewer [00:05:11] Okay, sure. Why- Where were you married?

Nina Swerdlow [00:05:19] In Parma. A church that was St Vladimir’s Church, which is actually. Was right down the street from here.

Interviewer [00:05:25] So you were married in Tremont?

Nina Swerdlow [00:05:27] No, I wasn’t married in Tremont. The church had already left to go to Parma. They built a church.

Interviewer [00:05:33] The whole church moved?

Nina Swerdlow [00:05:34] Yeah, we built a brand-new church. I mean, this is after the highway and the highway came in and displaced a lot of people. So most people went out to Parma and needed a new church because there was very few people didn’t want to drive all the way. So made it out there.

Interviewer [00:05:54] And did a lot of Tremont residents started moving into Parma. [Yeah.] Why Parma, do you think?

Nina Swerdlow [00:05:59] Because it was new. I think it was still close. It wasn’t that far out in the suburbs. And it was like one bought a house, you know, then the others, the word spread and then another one spread and another one spread. Like the street of Marioncliff Drive or the church is built on the corner of Marioncliff and State. I think almost all of Marioncliff was Ukrainian people that moved from Tremont to Parma.

Interviewer [00:06:24] So you had a pretty ethnocentric- It was very- Alright. Do you recall the year 1967 at all when Carl Stokes was elected mayor?

Nina Swerdlow [00:06:35] Yes.

Interviewer [00:06:36] Can you just expound a little bit about that? What Tremont, kind of the reaction here.

Nina Swerdlow [00:06:43] I think by that time, you know, 71 was coming through. I was in college at the time and came back and it was very- People didn’t know what to expect because he was black and most of the ethnicity in the thing, you know, and we just- It was sort of like you just sort of waited, you know, you didn’t know what was gonna happen. I mean, it was like it was good for the change, but you weren’t quite sure if the change was going to be good, bad or indifferent.

Interviewer [00:07:10] Do you think that a lot of the Tremont residents voted for that, for Carl Stokes?

Nina Swerdlow [00:07:14] I don’t know. I really don’t. It was Democrat. It’s been pretty much Democrat oriented.

Interviewer [00:07:22] Okay.

Nina Swerdlow [00:07:22] You know.

Interviewer [00:07:25] Alright. What were your first and early impressions of Tremont as a child?

Nina Swerdlow [00:07:31] I remember-

Interviewer [00:07:32] What was it like to grow up here?

Nina Swerdlow [00:07:34] It was great. Oh, yeah. I remember our street before the freeway came in, I remember the huge trees. I mean, just walk on either side. Everyone knew each other. I mean, everyone down- I could walk. It was Hello, Hello. You know, every house. You know, every house.

Interviewer [00:07:53] What street was this?

Nina Swerdlow [00:07:54] Starkweather Avenue between Scranton and 14th Street. It was- And then we lived on the corner of Almond Court and Starkweather, which was a little alleyway going all the way around and came out on the other end of Starkweather. So we actually had a virtual playground of our own. I mean, all the kids. I remember as a child being out on Friday and Saturday night in the summer until midnight, one o’clock at night.

Interviewer [00:08:20] Like, how old, how old a child?

Nina Swerdlow [00:08:22] Oh, we’re talking like 10, 11, 12 years old.

Interviewer [00:08:25] Oh, really?

Nina Swerdlow [00:08:25] Oh, yeah. Even younger than that. I mean, because parents were out on the porch. Everyone was out on the porch. I remember going to Lincoln Park. We’d go walk into Lincoln Park at midnight. It’s just loaded with people.

Interviewer [00:08:37] So this area in the - what was this, the ‘50s and ‘60s - was relatively safe and-

Nina Swerdlow [00:08:43] Oh, God, yes. I mean, literally. I mean, it was like, remember, we would. We would Play. At night we pretend we were going on a jungle expedition. We start at one end of the alley and climb people’s garages. Parents, you know, if you hear the noise, it’s the kids, you know. And we do, we climb up trees, down garages. I mean, I remember getting caught in a tree once, being afraid to come down because I went up too high, you know. And they’re saying, well, you gotta make it down. Otherwise, you know, can’t call anyone to come and get you. We’re going all the way across house to house, you know, in the yard, sneaking around, you know, we didn’t have barriers. We’re talking about 11, 12 o’clock at night.

Interviewer [00:09:22] Terrific.

Nina Swerdlow [00:09:23] I mean even in the, in the winter when it would get dark, we’d be out until all night building snow forts, hooking. When a car would come by, we’d grab the back bumper and let him take us for a ride. I remember the watermelon man coming around.

Interviewer [00:09:41] What was that?

Nina Swerdlow [00:09:42] It was a gentleman that, horse and buggy, a flatbed, flatbed cart or whatever, selling watermelon. And he cuts you out of piece before you bought the watermelon to make sure it was good.

Interviewer [00:09:55] Do you remember what he would sell? What was the price of a watermelon?

Nina Swerdlow [00:09:59] 50 cents, something like that.

Interviewer [00:10:01] For a whole watermelon.

Nina Swerdlow [00:10:02] It was, you know. And then we’d have. The ragman would come around and collect rags.

Interviewer [00:10:09] Well, what would he do with the rags?

Nina Swerdlow [00:10:11] I don’t really know. But it was like people would put, you know, he had scraps out, they’d come around. He’d sell little trinkets here in there. You know, as soon as my- I remember the salesman coming to the house. I remember most of our drapes in the house were from the gentleman coming to the door.

Interviewer [00:10:30] Like a door-to-door drape salesman?

Nina Swerdlow [00:10:32] Door to door. And he just made his rounds every couple months, you know, I’ve got this, I’ve got this, you know, do you want this?

Interviewer [00:10:39] And generally the whole neighborhood was like that?

Nina Swerdlow [00:10:41] Yeah. Yeah.

Interviewer [00:10:42] Okay. After you had been here, I mean, did you see any major changes from the ‘50s up until like the mid-’70s? What were your impressions?

Nina Swerdlow [00:10:52] Biggest change was when 71 came through.

Interviewer [00:10:57] What was that like?

Nina Swerdlow [00:10:59] It just dismantled the whole neighborhood.

Interviewer [00:11:01] It was awful?

Nina Swerdlow [00:11:02] Oh yeah, it was people that probably would never have left. I mean, at that time nobody realized that you could fight and say, no, you can’t come in here. Like now when they’re talking about expanding the highway, there’s a big push there and you’re watching it very closely so that you know, no one can- We’ve had them promise not to take any more homes and that, you know, work with us. That time they just came in and told you, we’re buying your house. That’s it.

Interviewer [00:11:31] And they had a set price or-

Nina Swerdlow [00:11:33] Well, yeah, yeah, basically they did. And some people fought it, you know, but it was- You had no choice. It was done.

Interviewer [00:11:43] Did that happen to your home?

Nina Swerdlow [00:11:45] No, we’re left right- Our house is here, the alley’s here, and 71 is right next to us.

Interviewer [00:11:53] So would you say that the construction of 71 was directly responsible?

Nina Swerdlow [00:11:58] Oh, yeah. It was a direct responsibility of immigration out of here.

Interviewer [00:12:01] Of people leaving?

Nina Swerdlow [00:12:03] Oh, yeah, correct. People probably would have stayed. Kids would– You know, it was a great neighborhood until that time. Everything. You know, you walked everywhere. You weren’t afraid to do anything. You just went here and there, whatever. And then when that came in, you were displaced. I mean, people, houses, beautiful homes. I mean, just absolutely gorgeous homes, just plowed right over.

Interviewer [00:12:31] And where did those people go then?

Nina Swerdlow [00:12:33] Parma. Most of them went to Parma and suburbs, but mainly Parma, I think that was closer. A few people bought, went around and bought another house down here, you know, and held out. But then you gotta remember after that, it was like a divide. Put a divide right down in the middle of the neighborhood. And it got so bad here that you wouldn’t even walk. I remember the corner store was up the street and to the right. And at one time I was driving. I drove even during the day. I mean, all of a sudden, I remember when I was a kid, you never locked your door. I mean, we never locked our doors in the ‘50s. Never thought of it.

Interviewer [00:13:09] And then after that, you started? [crosstalk] Is that because you had a different element moving into Tremont, or you had better access to–

Nina Swerdlow [00:13:21] No, I think it was because you had different element. You had more. Like the people that moved to Parma weren’t rich, but the people, when they left, the people that moved in were poorer than they were. [crosstalk] And it was ethically mixed around here. I mean, no one. When I went to school, to grade school, we had Hispanics. I mean, we had some blacks. And no one ever thought about it. It was never that kind of a divide. I mean, you just didn’t think about it that, you know, you had a party, everyone was invited.

Interviewer [00:13:54] So you think Tremont sort of escaped the racial divide of this country because of the immigrant population?

Nina Swerdlow [00:14:02] I think so, because I think they were. They knew what it was like to be. I remember when we came here, you know you were a DP, Displaced Person. That’s what they were. Probably a DP. It was like a slur. But, you know, most of them didn’t understand, didn’t speak the language to begin with. You’re talking about people that came in the ‘50s and that from a regime that was terrifying, did not speak the language. They came to a country, had no knowledge of what was gonna happen. I remember my mother said the first Thanksgiving we were here, she didn’t know. All she knew was everyone got Thanksgiving off. And, you know, and she said she remembers it was warm. It was a relatively warm Thanksgiving. She says, all of a sudden, she says she heard thunder, lightning, and there’s snow. She said it was a- What kind of place is this? She says it’s thundering. It’s lightning. She says it’s 60 degrees, two hours later and there’s snow coming down. I mean, it snowed and snowed. It didn’t thunder and lightning over there. She said- She said she didn’t know what the hell was going on.

Interviewer [00:15:09] That’s Cleveland, I guess. So you’d say that the construction of 71 changed your impression more than anything else. [crosstalk]

Nina Swerdlow [00:15:17] Yeah. I remember-

Interviewer [00:15:18] For the better or for the worse?

Nina Swerdlow [00:15:19] For the worse. Yeah. Because there, for a while, when the riots were going on in Cleveland, it was horrible. I mean, you just didn’t–

Interviewer [00:15:25] What time was that?

Nina Swerdlow [ 00:15:26 ] When were the riots? About the ‘70s? Late ‘60s. [crosstalk] Yeah.

Interviewer [00:15:35] Can you speak a little about his administration? Like what caused the riots and what he did, right or wrong?

Nina Swerdlow [00:15:39] Oh, God. I think he gave blacks a voice. And I think they expected everything too quickly because all of a sudden they had a voice in what was going on and what they wanted. And, I mean, just pent-up anger more than anything. That’s my view.

Interviewer [00:16:03] Which is right after Martin Luther King? That was ’63? ’65?

Nina Swerdlow [00:16:09] I’m trying to remember. I can’t remember what year the riots were.

Bob Denham [00:16:11] Yeah, Martin Luther King happened after this. Martin Luther King, are you thinking about his assassination?

Interviewer [00:16:18] Yeah. That was 1965. Two years after Kennedy, I believe?

Bob Denham [00:16:24] Is that right? [crosstalk]

Bob Denham [00:16:26] That would be about ’67 or 8. But nonetheless, the riots were about ’64.

Interviewer [00:16:34] And what were the riots about? Was it mostly African Americans rioting?

Bob Denham [00:16:39] As long as we’re not talking about Tremont specifically, I could jump in here, I feel. Okay. Carl Stokes was in office. And Carl Stokes– There seemed to be the feeling of a unity in the black population that probably wasn’t there. And I agree with you. They felt that they should be handed everything very quickly, and that just wasn’t true.

Interviewer [00:17:19] Handed things like what specifically?

Nina Swerdlow [00:17:24] Jobs, you know, everything that was due them, you know, I mean, they’ve been suppressed, and all of a sudden you’ve got a black mayor, and they feel like, you know, oh, it’s our turn. I should be able to get this job. I should be able to get this. I should be working where that white person is working. And it got very ugly. I mean, because I remember my dad was– I had to take my dad to the Cleveland Clinic, and we were driving through the east side, and I thought my father said - bad time, my father didn’t speak English well - and I could see the worried look on his face because there was groups of blacks on the corners. My father says, I just keep driving. That’s all. He said, I’m not stopping for any reason. It was very frightening. I mean, I was like. I think I was 16 years old. I mean, I was just- I mean, I remember being scared. I’m thinking, oh, God, what if someone comes? You know, a friend of mine at.

Bob Denham [00:18:16] That time was in the National Guard. I don’t know if I ever told this story.

Nina Swerdlow [00:18:19] Yeah.

Bob Denham [00:18:20] And he was called up for the riots. And he literally- We laughed about this for years. He literally took the rapid transit to the war front.

Interviewer [00:18:32] Wow! Down to downtown?

Bob Denham [00:18:34] To the near east side. He did. I mean, in full uniform. He would report to his reporting points, wherever that was, on the Rapid. And they would deploy him from there. And meanwhile, they’re burning down the near east side. I mean, it really has nothing to do with Tremont, per se, but nonetheless, it was a hell of an event.

Nina Swerdlow [00:18:57] But then I think when the riots took place, I think more people migrated into Tremont, into the west side. Until that time, I think you had- It was sort of- You had blacks, but you didn’t have any major- The only thing you had was, like, the projects. And the projects weren’t even that bad at that time.

Interviewer [00:19:15] Can you explain about the projects a little? Where?

Nina Swerdlow [00:19:18] Well, they’re down the corner at the bottom end of- By St. Theodosius Church there was a project down there. [crosstalk] I’m trying to think. I can’t think. West 7th, I think it was right in the corner there. But I remember-

Bob Denham [00:19:31] West 7, right off of 490.

Nina Swerdlow [00:19:34] There was a lot of blacks down there, but we never had any problem. It was like we were down there and no one bothered you.

Interviewer [00:19:42] And this was public housing?

Nina Swerdlow [00:19:43] Yeah, public housing, but nobody bothered you. But then there was a lot of whites in there, too, that were in public housing. And I think a lot of people here just never thought of it because we never had it, you know, I don’t, I remember blacks are working in steel mills. I remember my dad saying that they would, like when you go get your paycheck cashed, they would go like the Dempsey’s or Lemko Hall was a bar here. And I remember my father saying, hey there’s two black guys that, you know, gave him a ride home. And then they said, you know, could you cash a paycheck for you? Because they weren’t allowed, allowed to go in Lemko’s. And my father, I remember my father saying, no, you come on in with me. You know-

Interviewer [00:20:28] Did they had like a whites only?

Nina Swerdlow [00:20:31] No, it wasn’t specific whites only. It was just that they knew that they weren’t welcome. And my father just says, now come on in, we’ll have a beer. And I guess the guy- I remember my father saying, the gentleman back there started giving me some lip. And my father says, well then fine, I don’t have to come here and cash my check. And neither do any of these other people. You know, their money’s as good as, you know, our money. And it’s just- And I remember a lot of blacks, he says, my father, for a long time, he says they would come and they’d give my father the paychecks and my father would walk in and cash or checks to come out and give me their money. And I said, well, why would they trust you? He says, because he knew that I was going to give them money. Where am I going to go? The door is right there. You know, I’m not going to take off the back door. He, then it got to a point, he’s like, you know, well, come on in and have a beer. And it just slowly just, you know, got accepted. I remember at Dempsey’s when it was originally if a black man came in, they served him, but when he got up, they just took the fishbowl and dropped it on the floor instead of washing it.

Interviewer [00:21:35] And these were Ukrainian-owned businesses?

Nina Swerdlow [00:21:39] No, not all of them were Ukrainian-owned. And Lemko’s. I don’t remember who owned Lemko’s. It was, I know Dempsey’s was Polish, I think, but they’d been here for a long time. But it was just, you know, it was a time at that time and then gradually, just like, you know, people would start, you know, you got the steel mills and more blacks were working in them. And they just, you know, came into the neighbor- To them, this was like to the immigrant, the ethnics that moved out of here to Parma, the blacks that moved in here, it was like for them going from the east side to the west side. It was just a step along. It was a better place. They wanted to get their kids out the east side and from the influence that was there. And they figured, okay, if they move away from it-

Interviewer [00:22:31] And most residents of Tremont, I mean, did they– Was it a welcoming thing or was it–

Nina Swerdlow [00:22:37] I don’t think– I don’t think I ever thought of it, to tell you truthfully.

Interviewer [00:22:41] Okay.

Nina Swerdlow [00:22:42] I mean, it was never specifically, you know, oh, look who’s moving in. It was just, you know-

Interviewer [00:22:50] So you wouldn’t say-

Nina Swerdlow [00:22:51] And it depended on the person. I mean, you had- I mean, I’m sorry. I have had Puerto Ricans. I’ve had blacks living next door to me in this rental. I have had white trash. It depended on the people.

Interviewer [00:23:09] And was that the general impression of the Tremont area, do you think?

Nina Swerdlow [00:23:12] I think most of us, I mean, especially I says, I think most of us, yeah, I think once you’ve been, probably just again. So, you know, because we came, a lot of people didn’t like the idea that you had, you know, foreign speaking, you know, like I said, they called you a DP. You know, I remember having, going places with my mother and translating because my mother didn’t understand the language that well.

Interviewer [00:23:41] How long did it take your parents to learn the language? I mean, well, enough to learn-

Nina Swerdlow [00:23:46] My mother taught herself to read and write and speak. Let me put it this way, my mother gets by it. I mean, there’s certain things that she, you know, try, say, I can’t remember the word. You know, she’s like, she says, this is the stupidest language I ever saw. How can a GH be an F? You know. In my country, you know, the letters here, that’s how it sounds, you know, here, PHs and GHs. What kind of stupid thing is this? But she turned out to read- She taught herself to read the paper. I remember it took a while. It was little by little. She worked at it.

Interviewer [00:24:24] But she didn’t take any formal classes or anything?

Nina Swerdlow [00:24:26] No, at that time, you didn’t, you know, you were working. You went to work. You know, she worked nights, got up top to school, you know, you worked eight, ten hours a day. You came home and cooked meals.

Interviewer [00:24:39] Were you the first person in your family to go to college?

Nina Swerdlow [00:24:42] Yes. Yeah.

Interviewer [00:24:43] Were your parents happy to see that happen?

Nina Swerdlow [00:24:46] Oh, yeah. Oh, sure. My father– I remember my father telling me, we goof around. He says. He says the rule here is I don’t care. Until you graduate from high school, you don’t leave this house. I don’t care if that means you’re 22 years old. You graduate from high school before you go out, leave the house. Now when I came, he told me I wanted to go to college, I mean, they were just ecstatic.

Interviewer [00:25:10] Do you think that’s because. I mean, do you feel they wanted you to stay in the Tremont area?

Nina Swerdlow [00:25:15] No, no, I think it was just they wanted us to have an education. The big thing is an education, to have an education.

Interviewer [00:25:21] How do you feel about the concept of the American Dream? You know, the idea that you’re going to do financially better than your parents. Is that-

Nina Swerdlow [00:25:29] In this economic time?

Interviewer [00:25:33] I mean, not necessarily now, but when you were trying to go through college.

Nina Swerdlow [00:25:39] I look at it, my parents came here with nothing, and most of the people who came here with nothing, and if I compare what I did to what they did, they still did better than I did. I mean, to go to a foreign country, not speak the language, be able to survive, raise two kids, buy a house. I mean, I don’t remember- We weren’t rich, but I don’t remember wanting for anything. I mean, there was always food on the table. My friends were allowed to come in, you know, at any time. I think now, I think people now have a harder time making ends meet than they did. I mean, I think because of all the little gadgets that, you know, you want this, you have to have a big color, you know, the TV, this and that and the- Then it was just, you know, want a TV? Okay, we have. We can probably get one in, you know, six weeks, or put money away and get a TV. It was not a charge. You went to the store and you paid cash.

Interviewer [00:26:43] Do you think they achieved their goals as far as what they wanted to do when they move in this country?

Nina Swerdlow [00:26:48] I don’t think they actually intended to move to this country. I mean, that’s it. Most of them didn’t- It was not a matter of choice of, oh, I want to go to America. At that time, it wasn’t, you know, America’s America, you know. It was a matter of the Soviets were in power. You know, you had Stalin, and they knew what Stalin was. You have to remember during the time of the war, you had Stalin, who they knew that practically starved Ukraine out of existence.

Interviewer [00:27:15] And all the purges?

Nina Swerdlow [00:27:17] And then you had Hitler, which, you know, you heard, little rougher, but you didn’t know what the hell he was about because you didn’t know him. And he said, my mother. I remember my mother saying, you were standing there when. When the, when the German army walked in, he. She said the ground shook. You could hear them. You could feel the ground vibrating, you know, from like a mile away. You could just feel. Then you had the Americans that walked in, very relaxed. She said you didn’t know. She said when they got liberated, she said, there you are, you’re living. There’s- I mean, you were actually at that point, you’re living in barracks, you know, two, three families to, you know, like three or four rooms. You were sharing, you know, rooms. And you could go home, you could go back to the Soviet Union, which you knew what Stalin would do to you, or you could take a chance. They said you got the opportunity. She said, my father said, we can’t do any worse than if we go there, we’re liable to be dead. So.

Interviewer [00:28:25] It’s a serious choice. So just- I’m sorry to change the topic, but in the time that you lived in Tremont, you’d say that you saw it go from a nice neighborhood to something that wasn’t as good?

Nina Swerdlow [00:28:40] No, I saw it go from a really great neighborhood down into the dredges practically and then get rebuilt up, back up.

Interviewer [00:28:49] What were your thoughts when the people forced out by 71 and then-

Nina Swerdlow [00:28:55] The ones that were forced out by 71, they probably never would have moved except for 71. And then the other ones, when it started, the economy started going down, the neighborhood started going down, running for the light. I think the second biggest thing was when the busing came in. When the busing came in, they didn’t want the kids bused to the east side. I mean, you had a school, you know, a block and a half away from your house, and your kid had to get on a bus an hour early to go to the east side. It didn’t make sense to ’em.

Interviewer [00:29:28] And that made people move?

Nina Swerdlow [00:29:29] Oh, sure, I think I had that made it big. I think that that was probably even bigger than, you know, I believe for that with 71. 71, they didn’t have a choice because the house was gone. You know, where are you going to live? But when the busing came in, I think that was just voluntary. They wanted the hell out, but a lot of- Right. I mean, just left.

Interviewer [00:29:50] You’d say primarily they moved to Parma?

Nina Swerdlow [00:29:53] Most of them moved to Parma. I think then after Parma, after maybe 10, 12, 14, 15 years in Parma, then they might move out to like Seven Hills or North Royalton, but most of them went to Parma.

Interviewer [00:30:03] Did you keep up with your friends who moved to Parma?

Nina Swerdlow [ 00:30:05 ] Because we, you know, went to the church there. So you saw everybody, and people would say, oh, oh, you still live down - it was called the South Side, it wasn’t called Tremont.

Interviewer [00:30:18] This is the South Side.

Nina Swerdlow [00:30:19] This is the South Side. That’s when you talked. It was the South Side. Tremont was just the street. Oh, you still live there? Yeah. Okay. Oh, poor thing.

Interviewer [00:30:29] You know, and that was their perception.

Nina Swerdlow [00:30:32] Yeah. Now, you know, you were. You were sort of like, this was the ghetto and that was the elite.

Interviewer [00:30:37] The people who moved, would you say their lives were better or worse for the move?

Nina Swerdlow [00:30:49] I don’t know. To them, it must have been, they probably thought they were better. You know, they had their kids being bused anywhere they’re going to school, you know, where they wanted to. They thought it was probably much safer, especially during the time when it really went downhill. So, yeah, they probably thought it was a good move. I mean, I never thought. I remember my parents talking about moving. I don’t want to move. [audio cuts out briefly] Because when you- I mean, I can get out to 71, 490, 480, any- [crosstalk]

Interviewer [00:31:29] [inaudible] fast from downtown. [crosstalk] Yeah.

Nina Swerdlow [00:31:31] Within three minutes from my house, five, I can be at any highway I want and go anywhere.

Interviewer [00:31:38] So you’re glad you stayed?

Nina Swerdlow [00:31:39] Oh, yeah.

Bob Denham [00:31:40] In addition to which- I’m sorry to interrupt you, but in addition to which, you can walk to virtually everything you need. You can walk to a beverage store, you can walk to a, you know, tavern. You can walk to the Dairy Mart, you can walk to Civilization’s [coffee shop]. You can walk to the park. Parma, you can’t do that. On the other hand, Parma, it’s got a little bit nicer yards, the housing stock is probably a little bit nicer, it was then-

Nina Swerdlow [00:32:04] It’s all coming back. I mean, I remember houses here that you looked at even 15 years ago, you could get for like $5,000 and put 20, 30 in, have a nice home. Now that- Now that house that was selling for $5,000 and falling- You can’t even buy a dilapidated house for under 25.

Interviewer [00:32:27] The house sold for 5,000?

Nina Swerdlow [00:32:29] Oh, yeah, there were some houses. I mean, and that was. You’re paying too much. I mean, there were some houses that was five grand. Oh, yeah, they were just falling apart. I mean, I was the- Maybe 10, you know, but, I mean, they were in bad shape, you know.

Bob Denham [00:32:41] Yeah, but you have to understand, Chris, that they had no- There was no lot to speak of. It was 30 feet wide, maybe, and they were well over 100 years old.

Nina Swerdlow [00:32:54] And they just weren’t taken care of, you know, and even some of the nicer places. And so they. If you- I mean, like a lot of new houses down in West 7th, people buy. I remember one girl that came to work for the steakhouse, she said, they just bought a house down in West 7th. I thought, oh, my God, what the hell are you doing moving down there? You know? And she said, we bought the house for 25. We got a loan for 50 or 60, and we’re going to rehab it. And that’s what people did because you couldn’t. They couldn’t afford to go out to Parma where houses, which I call Little Cracker Jack boxes, were going for 90, $100,000.

Interviewer [00:33:37] Right.

Nina Swerdlow [00:33:37] You know, where originally, when they moved out to Parma, the house cost him $30,000 and people thought that was a lot.

Interviewer [00:33:46] So the people who moved in to replace the people who moved to Parma were primarily of African American and [crosstalk] Hispanic descent?

Nina Swerdlow [00:33:54] And Hispanic. And then you had some, mainly Hispanic. I don’t know. It’s always been so mixed, you know what I’m saying? It was, racially, it’s been mixed with all kind of activity. I mean, you hear people fighting here and there, but you never had that. I honestly would say you never had that people swearing words at each other, you know, like, oh, you’re this and that, you know, it was like- I mean, we just grew up mixed together. If you were black, you were- That you were part of the group. If you were Hispanic, you know, I remember high school kid I went to grade school in high school, and he died in Vietnam. We all went. I mean, we were all upset. It didn’t matter that you were, you know, we were white and they were Hispanic. He was a friend of ours. It was just the way it was.

Interviewer [00:34:51] So you wouldn’t say the immigration of different and more, I don’t know how you say it, a different racial element, was bad for the neighborhood?

Nina Swerdlow [00:35:03] No, the neighborhood. The worst thing that happened here was 71 came in and took it apart. That’s it. Even then, even had 71 not come in, I think, and the houses stayed, you would have had some influence of blacks moving on. But everyone kept a heart. You have to remember here it was when 71 took over and disseminated and a lot of people kept their property and became slum loads, but people wanted to move and they, you know, they just wanted to sell it and a lot of properties brought up. And you had slum, or that’s basically what I call them. They didn’t live here. They just came around to collect the rent. And they didn’t join them to rehab the house and then saying, like, maybe. I’d say maybe in the late ’80s is when it started. You know, people coming in, obviously, it was like, yeah, this is not too bad. You can get a bus and go downtown. You know, everything is easily accessible. And you had some people that started buying horses and not just to buy them and, you know, hold them for rent. They started rehabbing them. And the only bad part about that is some of the people that are poor, that can’t afford to do it, have been displaced. You know, it’s hard for them to find a place to live. Like, you know, they were used to paying $200 a month. Now, that place that they were paying $200 a month that someone bought cause they’ve rehabbed and going for 750.

Interviewer [00:36:32] So generally, how do you feel about the urban renewal that’s going on?

Nina Swerdlow [00:36:38] I love it. Oh, yeah. I mean, I don’t like the place. I don’t like the fact that a lot of the poor people, you know, feel like they’ve been displaced. You know, you get the quote, unquote, young yuppies with money coming in and thinking, oh, we can do what we want. But it’s– I think it’s mixed. And I think we have to learn how to coexist, you know? I mean, the people that are here, I’ve been here. I mean, I’ve gone away to college, etc. When I got married, my dad was ill, so we moved back into the house upstairs. You know, my parents were downstairs. I said, I’m not going anywhere. I don’t want to go to the suburbs. I was here to stay.

Interviewer [00:37:28] And so you’ve been generally happy with the way Tremont turned around?

Nina Swerdlow [00:37:32] Oh, yeah.

Interviewer [00:37:33] Would you say it’s come full circle from the–

Nina Swerdlow [00:37:36] No, I think you still got a lot of going to do. I think people are going to settle in and there’s going to be a mixture of the very rich in the new houses. And I think that along the way, people will. Everyone will find just a little niche. You know what I’m saying?

Interviewer [00:37:53] What do you see in Tremont’s near future in the next 15 or 20 years? What kind of people do you see living here?

Nina Swerdlow [00:38:03] A lot of professionals. I think there’ll be a lot of, you know. Well, now, I don’t know. You know, we used to call them middle class. I think they call poor now. I have no idea. You know, but we have- They’re doing new HOPE projects and all that’s for housing for, you know, lower income. It’s going to be very mixed.

Interviewer [00:38:24] And you don’t mind the lower-income housing?

Nina Swerdlow [00:38:28] No, low income housing. Like I said, I’ve had next door to me, I’ve had people that are very poor. Doesn’t matter if you’re brought up to take care of the property, whether you own it or not, keep it clean, you’re gonna do it whether you’re poor or rich. And then I’ve had some that are very what I would call white trash. They probably made more than the poor blacks that live next door. We kept it, you know, it’s really hard to raise a lot of it. It’s just, you just do, you know, you take care whether it’s your property or not, you take care of it and you’re living there. That’s the thing I said. I’m living here. I don’t want to see that trash outside my house. And whether you own the property or not, I still don’t want to see it because you’ve got to go out and look at it.

Interviewer [00:39:22] Is that the general opinion of the neighborhood, would you say?

Nina Swerdlow [00:39:27] A lot of people? Most people, yeah. I mean, I think like, you know, when I was young, you had Puerto Ricans coming in, you know, living here and people would say I died. You know, they don’t, they don’t take care of stuff and all that. You know, if you rent, too many property values going to go down, right? What you found some that you rented to- I’ll tell you what, you would walk by, you could eat off the sidewalks, you know, and especially- And if they work and bought their own house, my God, you know, the lawn was manicured and little- I mean, you were fighting to keep up with them because they were putting you to shame and you thought you were doing a good job. And all of a sudden they’re out there that, you know, you can’t see the dirt on the sidewalk. [inaudible] it up a little bit. And then some on them that bought property and they were still like they were made, rented. It’s just– So it’s a matter of how you’re brought up. It didn’t matter if you had property or not. Some people kept things clean, some didn’t.

Interviewer [00:40:24] Would you say that the people who owned the property did a better job or the people that-

Nina Swerdlow [00:40:28] No, most of the time people that owned their property did. And the ones that were going to do it, that were looking to own property and live in the neighborhood, but if they rented they still, you know? It didn’t matter that they were renting, they were living there and they didn’t want to look out at garbage.

Interviewer [00:40:48] Did that influx of the new immigrant group cause a lot of residents to move or-

Nina Swerdlow [00:40:53] I think it had some, a little bit to do with it. You know, it’s changed. People panic. You know, it’s all sudden- What always amazed me was when we moved here, we were the outsiders, you know, all of a sudden you had people talking this foreign language, and all of a sudden we’re here, and all of a sudden you have these Hispanics moving in or whatever. They’re talking a foreign language. You don’t understand what they’re saying. So they’re the outsider. I think it just takes psych-

Interviewer [00:41:26] And really, this is my last question is if you were moving the Cleveland area now and you really didn’t, all you could see were the neighborhoods, you saw the suburbs and you see the Tremont area and you wanted to raise a family, do you think that you would want to do that here or would you rather be in a suburb?

Nina Swerdlow [00:41:47] No, I’m a city girl. I like the inner-

Interviewer [00:41:51] You think this is a place to-

Nina Swerdlow [00:41:53] Yeah, I mean, I knew my neighbors. I mean, I knew everyone. I mean, I knew if I did something when I was growing up. Mrs. So and So from across the street, You cut that out right now, I’m telling you. I mean, I knew it would be nothing if someone really caught me doing something for them to give me a whack. You know now, you wouldn’t dare to touch a child, you know, especially not your own, let alone somebody else’s. But I knew that I would go home and tell my father because my father would say, you probably deserved it, and he’d whack me, you know, I mean, it was. I’m not talking about whacking you swat on the ass and all that, but everybody watched out for everybody. I mean, it was not, you know, I wouldn’t think of sassing somebody if I was doing something, you know, don’t you stop that right now and don’t, you know, don’t be doing that or whatever. I mean, that’s me. I mean, I just didn’t think- I knew I didn’t want him call my father.

Interviewer [00:42:46] Is that the same today or-

Nina Swerdlow [00:42:50] No, that’s different today. That’s different now. God forbid if you say something to your own kid alone and somebody else’s kid. I mean, it’s just, you know. And then again, it depends on the individual. My father never thought well, no, it’s not her. It was always, what did they do now? We were guilty. We had to prove we were innocent. Whereas now it’s, you know, oh, my Johnny wouldn’t do that. Well, people are out of communication. We had to entertain ourselves. We played with other children, we went out, we were together. They knew what we were doing. You know, I’m going here, we’re gonna walk, we’re gonna walk to the show. I remember on Saturdays, garden show was there or license show, there’d be like 10 of us, you know, we’d get money to go to the show. And someone, we had a family that wasn’t that rich. So we pool our money, the money we would have gotten for ice cream. Okay, I’ll give you a nickel. That’ll get them there, you know, and we pull our money. So we all would go. And we would never think of. It was not like, you know, well, they had, we had more and he didn’t have. We shared it really was because I remember the one family that was there, they had eight kids. So it was tough for them, you know, big house and we’d go, like I said, we said, we’re going to go to the show. Well, they couldn’t afford to go to the show. The older ones, we had the older ones that played with us, you know. So I’d say, you know, show’s 50 cents. I go to dollar, you know, okay.

Interviewer [00:44:17] It was 50 cents?

Nina Swerdlow [00:44:19] There’s like 25 of 50 cents. Yeah, I mean we went to two, two movies and 21 cartoons. I’m not kidding. It was an all-day event. We went at noon and got home at 6:00.

Interviewer [00:44:34] Geez.

Nina Swerdlow [00:44:34] I remember going. And it would be dark sometimes. I remember we watched Frankenstein, Giraffe, I don’t remember which one it was. I mean, we were walking down the middle of the street because we were afraid there was something hiding in the corners.

Interviewer [00:44:48] Alright, well that’s, that’s terrific. Do you have any questions of me or this process?

Nina Swerdlow [00:44:54] What are you studying?

Interviewer [00:44:56] I gotta stop.

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