Abstract
Irene Pavlyshyn shares her experiences growing up in the Tremont neighborhood of Cleveland, Ohio. Born in 1935 to Ukrainian immigrant parents, Pavlyshyn discusses her family's cultural traditions and the strong sense of community among residents. She reflects on her education, local social activities, and the role of the church in her upbringing. The interview also addresses the challenges faced by the community during economic downturns and the impact of urban development on Tremont.
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Interviewee
Pavlyshyn, Irene (interviewee)
Project
Tremont History Project
Date
2003
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
43 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Irene Pavlyshyn interview, 2003" (2003). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 223065.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/1380
Transcript
Interviewer [00:00:02] Okay, can you please tell me what your name is and can you spell it for me?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:00:08] My name is Irene Pavlyshyn. That’s spelled P, A, V, L, Y, S, H, Y, N.
Interviewer [00:00:20] Thank you. What are your, some of your early childhood memories of growing up in Tremont?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:00:31] Being kind of being kind of surrounded with many friends, lots of outdoor activities, lots of playing, not necessarily sports, because unless you went to the park or unless you went to the schoolyard, there wasn’t ample space space to have anything like baseball games or things like that, but the kind of sports that or the kind of games that girls would be involved in, like hopscotch and tag, hide and go seek, things like that.
Interviewer [00:01:12] Okay. When did your parents move to Tremont? Do you know why they moved to that area?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:01:21] Well, they moved to the area and they came to this country in 1912 and they settled in that area. They didn’t live in any other section of Cleveland, and primarily because the church was there and other people of their nationality were there, and some relatives that had come before them came to Tremont, and this is the reason that they were there.
Interviewer [00:01:50] So do you have a lot of relatives that lived in that area?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:01:54] There were. There aren’t any more. But there were not any close relatives. There were people that, let’s say, were from the same village that my mother and father were, and we called them aunts and uncles, even though they weren’t actually blood relatives. But as far as blood relatives, there weren’t too many because I guess when they came from the old country, there were just a few of them that were ambitious enough or were adventurous enough to come from the old country to America.
Interviewer [00:02:29] Do you remember what languages they spoke?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:02:32] They spoke Ukrainian and they were able to speak Polish.
Interviewer [00:02:38] Did they teach you how to speak those languages?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:02:43] I don’t know whether it was a mutual learning from them or whether it was just. We did go to Ukrainian school, and so we learned a lot about writing and reading the language, but primarily we learned from home and from church.
Interviewer [00:03:02] Did your friends speak that language?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:03:04] Yes, they did, too. So we were able to converse with our friends. However, we never did. We never used the Ukrainian language in speaking with our friends. It was just primarily at home and in church.
Interviewer [00:03:20] The neighborhood that you grew up in, were there a lot of different nationalities? Can you name some?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:03:27] Well, how big a neighborhood do you mean? Do you mean within my block or do you mean within five, six blocks?
Interviewer [00:03:37] Say three or four blocks?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:03:39] Three. Within three or four blocks, there were Ukrainians, there were Polish, Russians. There were some Slovaks. But in Our immediate area. That’s about all that there were.
Interviewer [00:03:56] Did they all speak English or did they all speak their native language?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:04:01] No, they all spoke English. The mothers and fathers, of course, spoke their native language. And to some extent some of those mothers and fathers did not speak English too well. But the children of course did because of the school.
Interviewer [00:04:19] Can you tell me something about the house you grew up in? Was it a very large house, a small house?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:04:26] Well, it was- It was a two-family house. It was, I mean, two-story house. And there were- My father had a grocery store and then later a bar in the front and in the back was living quarters and then upstairs there were two sets of living quarters.
Interviewer [00:04:49] What were your sleeping arrangements with your sister?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:04:52] We shared a bedroom.
Interviewer [00:04:53] Did that cause any problems?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:04:55] The usual problems [laughs] when girls are growing up or boys, I suppose. Just a little. [crosstalk] Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
Interviewer [00:05:08] Did you ever get married?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:05:11] Yes, I married, not when I was in that area but when I had moved out of that area.
Interviewer [00:05:16] Okay. Do you remember where your reception was at and your wedding?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:05:22] Oh, yes, uh huh. My reception was at Bessie Miller’s and my wedding was at St. Vladimir’s Ukrainian Orthodox Church on West 11th.
Interviewer [00:05:33] Do you remember what kind of food was served at the reception?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:05:37] Yeah, at Bessie Miller’s, they were noted for their chicken dinners. So there was- It wasn’t an ethnic type of cuisine. It was just a regular chicken dinner with, you know, with the potatoes and so forth.
Interviewer [00:05:55] Do you remember what type of music they played?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:05:59] Yes, they played all types of music. They played polkas, of course, you know, for the dancing. And they played a few foxtrots, but primarily polkas.
Interviewer [00:06:15] Where did your parents work, and did both your parents work?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:06:20] My mother worked before she was married and she worked in a bakery, Not a bakery, but she worked for Halle Brothers and Halle Brothers had a cafeteria for their employees and she worked there in the bakery. She worked there for a while and then she worked, I believe that’s all, really.
Interviewer [00:06:46] Was that unusual for a woman to work?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:06:50] No, no, not at all. In fact, some women, a lot of the women worked after they were married, but my mother, after she was married, my father, as I said, owned the store. So she helped out and that was where she worked. My father worked for a while at City Hospital. He was a clerk there. And then he had a chance to move back to- He had come from New York with his sister when he was single, and he had a chance to move back to New York with her because she was moving back. But he decided to stay here. And then after he stayed here, he had the job at City Hospital. And then he married my mother and bought this property. Bought the store. And that was his-
Interviewer [00:07:49] So both parents just ran the store?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:07:50] Yes.
Interviewer [00:07:52] When you were a child, where did you guys play?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:07:56] Oh, we played in our backyard. We had a small backyard, and we played out on the street. Not the street, but the sidewalks and things like roller skating, you know, we would go back and forth and play games there on the sidewalk, but that was about it. Unless we would go sometimes, especially, we would go to Brookside Park.
Interviewer [00:08:27] What types of games did you play?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:08:30] We played hopscotch, tag, hide and go seek. We played with dolls. We played make believe, you know, dressing, dressing up and things like that.
Interviewer [00:08:46] Where did you go to church at?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:08:48] We went to St. Peter and Paul. It was a Ukrainian Catholic church.
Interviewer [00:08:56] When you went to church, did you go with your family or did you go with groups of people? Did you go with your neighbors?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:09:02] No, we went with my- It was very close, so oftentimes we went alone, but most of the time we went with our folks.
Interviewer [00:09:12] When you went to church, what language was the mass said in?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:09:17] The language was for the- At the beginning it was all in Ukrainian, but then later on they introduced an English service or an English Mass, and we used to go to that one.
Interviewer [00:09:30] Did you understand the mass when it said?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:09:31] In Ukrainian? Yes, after a while, yes. You know, he had books and there was a translation. So you understood what was going on.
Interviewer [00:09:44] When you were growing up as a child, what was your favorite food?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:09:50] Oh, golly, I think noodles. [laughs] I’ve liked noodles all my life. But I liked the pierogies, you know, I liked those. I liked the stuffed cabbage. I liked pork chops, love chicken soup. And that’s about it.
Interviewer [00:10:10] Were these dishes always made by your mother?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:10:14] Yes. Uh huh.
Interviewer [00:10:15] What type of food did she cook that you really didn’t like?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:10:20] Well, occasionally she would, you know. I can’t think of any food that she cook that we did not like. She really tried to please us all the time. She, sometimes she gave my father some things that we didn’t eat, such as, you know, pig’s feed and things like that that were not- Didn’t appeal to us.
Interviewer [00:10:46] Did your mother. Did she teach you to cook? Did she pass on the tray?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:10:51] Somewhat, but not. Not too much. Not too much.
Interviewer [00:10:57] When did you- Or your parents. Where did you grocery shop?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:11:02] Oh, we had a store that was about a half a block away. And it was a grocery store. It was mom and pop store. It was a meat market and they had vegetables and produce.
Interviewer [00:11:16] How often did you go shopping?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:11:19] Probably daily. You know, there was always something that we had to get.
Interviewer [00:11:23] But you always walked to the store?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:11:25] Oh, yes.
Interviewer [00:11:25] Did you ever go to the West Side Market?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:11:28] Oh, yes, we used to go- We used to go there on Saturdays with my father.
Interviewer [00:11:33] Do you remember what types of food you bought at the West Side Market?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:11:37] Oh, we bought certain kinds of breads and rolls, and oftentimes there was pork, pork tenderloin. We used to go to the chicken place, which, where they had live chickens, you know, that you could pick out and then bring that chicken home after he was killed and dressed. [laughs]
Interviewer [00:12:00] How did you get to the West Side Market?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:12:02] My father had. No. My father had a car.
Interviewer [00:12:04] So you drove?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:12:05] We drove.
Interviewer [00:12:15] What kinds of food were served during holidays and celebrations? Were there certain foods served during Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:12:26] Well, not Thanksgiving, but during Easter, there was always kielbasa, as you might know about that, and always eggs. And there was always a horseradish made with beets. That was a popular dish at that time, too. And at Christmastime, there would be the pierogies and stuffed cabbage. There’d be cabbage and peas, and all of those would be meatless dishes for Christmas.
Interviewer [00:13:06] When some of the bridges were out, did that affect your shopping going to the West Side Market?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:13:14] Well, you know, I’m trying to think if there was. It was no, because the Abbey Bridge was always there. And so we were able to go to the West Side Market. And it wasn’t. I think it was during the war that the Central Viaduct was demolished at that time. So it really didn’t affect us because by that time we had already moved. It was during the war.
Interviewer [00:13:43] What was dating like when you were a teenager?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:13:47] Well, let’s see. A little different than it is now. It seems like now people meet each other in places. But at that time, the boy came to your house and, you know, he was introduced to your parents. And then you went out from that point, and then he returned, came back and returned you to your home. Now, I think it’s just, you know, well, I’ll meet you down at the corner. And, you know, and then everybody’s on their own.
Interviewer [00:14:19] Did you go on group dates or were they all individual dates?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:14:23] Oh, they weren’t individual dates very much. But most of all, they were group dates.
Interviewer [00:14:30] Where did you go on dates? What was the kind of place?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:14:33] Oh, we’d go to Dairy Dell [a restaurant at 2342 Professor]. We’d go to a basketball game at the high school or a football game or a dance, a school dance, a movie, and that would be about it.
Interviewer [00:14:47] Any favorite movies you can remember?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:14:49] Oh, I liked Humphrey Bogart a lot and Chris Clark Gable and, you know, Mae West and some of the earlier ones, James Cagney. We really spend a lot of time in the movies.
Interviewer [00:15:04] Do you remember how much it cost to go to the movies?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:15:07] Well, I know that when we would splurge and go downtown, we could, see we were very close to town, so we would just get on the streetcar and go down to the Palace. That would be 35 cents before noon. And you had a movie plus the vaudeville show at that time. But for the local show it probably was about 15 cents.
Interviewer [00:15:34] What can you remember about Lincoln Park?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:15:37] Lincoln Park was a good place to cut through. We always cut through to go to West 14th, but we didn’t stop spend a lot of time in Lincoln Park. Actually, there was really nothing there but a park. You know, there weren’t any ball fields or diamonds or anything like that. And they did have a pool in the middle, you know, where the gazebo is now. But we didn’t go there. If we went swimming at all, it would be to Edgewater or to Brookside.
Interviewer [00:16:10] What high school did you go to?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:16:11] Lincoln High.
Interviewer [00:16:12] And what year did you graduate?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:16:14] January ’41.
Interviewer [00:16:17] What were your favorite subjects in school?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:16:20] I liked journalism. I liked English. I liked foreign languages, liked biology.
Interviewer [00:16:33] Were there any classes you didn’t like?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:16:35] I didn’t care for math. I didn’t care for math.
Interviewer [00:16:42] Do you think Tremont was a good place to grow up as a child?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:16:46] Oh, yes, I do.
Interviewer [00:16:49] Was it- Basically, why?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:16:53] Well, it probably was the time, because I’m sure in other neighborhoods people felt that way too. But there was a closeness, you know, to the people that were there. You had a lot of good friends that you could count on. There was always somebody to do something with. And for the most part the people were honest and hardworking and they were quite interested in keeping up the neighborhood. [crosstalk] Good teachers, good school system. Uh huh.
Interviewer [00:17:32] How has Tremont changed now and has it been for the better or worse?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:17:38] Well, there a period of time, I think, when it was worse because as the people left Tremont, then groups of people came in that were not used to the neighborhood and maybe there was more poverty at that time and there wasn’t as much attention paid to the children. I think a good many of the people probably had to work, although I shouldn’t say that because in my day there were many mothers that worked and yet the children were well-behaved. Not to say that there wasn’t any kind of delinquency because there was, you know, but now, of course, it’s like Ohio City. It’s trendy in some places and not in others.
Interviewer [00:18:29] Do you go back there often to visit?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:18:32] Not to visit, but to go to the restaurants.
Interviewer [00:18:35] Speaking of the restaurants, what do you think about all the new restaurants in that area? Is that a good thing?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:18:44] I think it’s a good thing because it’s bringing people back into the neighborhood. And although I think a lot of the people that live in the neighborhood, I’ve heard them express the view that, you know, people just coming in here to eat and they don’t care anything else about the neighborhood and then they just go. And I suppose there’s a certain amount of that, but I think the neighborhood is improved.
Interviewer [00:19:14] Do most of the residents that live there now, can they afford to eat at all these new restaurants?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:19:19] Probably not. Probably not.
Interviewer [00:19:22] So they’re probably-
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:19:24] There’s probably just look on these as being places that, you know, the people come in from out of the city, out of the neighborhood to eat. And I don’t know whether the- I don’t know just how much the people in the neighborhood are benefiting from that unless they have a shop like, you know, the delicatessen that they have there on 11th Street, and they really don’t have any gift shops or anything as such. But it seems like there’s more of a focus on the neighborhood, and I think that’s good. I think when there’s people are looking to upgrade the neighborhood, I think it’s always good for the residents.
Interviewer [00:20:12] What do you think about all the new houses, the expensive condominiums being built there?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:20:21] Well, you know, I guess they have a section there where they’re ordinary houses, I think on West 7th Street. That I think is fine. And the condos, I’ve been in some of them, and they’re kind of way out, and, you know, it- I guess it’s good for the neighborhood because what, you know, what, what would be the alternative? You know, if people didn’t come in and try to upgrade the neighborhood, you know, it might just become a neighborhood of blight. But on the other hand, it’s- You know, some of these places are really too much. [laughs]
Interviewer [00:21:01] The new condos, how big are they?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:21:04] Well, the new condos, let’s see, I’ve been in several of them, and they’re the townhouses, you know, that are three storied, and they’re. They’re not overly huge. They’re good for a couple, you know, but not necessarily for a family that would be raising children.
Interviewer [00:21:28] What type of people are buying these houses?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:21:30] I think. I think that people that are yuppies, you know, people that have a nice income and both working.
Interviewer [00:21:43] What do you think drove them to the Tremont area?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:21:46] I think the fact that they started with the restaurants and then some of the people that are the real estate people, you know, or the builders, I think that they saw an opportunity, you know, to build something that was close to town for people to work in town and come there. And I think that that’s probably what drew it.
Interviewer [00:22:13] What was it like during the Depression? Do you have any memories?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:22:19] Well, everything was, you know, people were very, very careful about what they bought, if they could buy anything. And they were very careful about the clothes that they wore and to take good care of the things that they had, because they realized that, you know, it wouldn’t be replaced in a hurry. And there weren’t too many opportunities for recreation other than recreation at home. A lot of people did a lot of reading and a lot of board games.
Interviewer [00:22:58] What type of board games?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:22:59] Like Monopoly, Checkers, that kind of- Chinese Checkers, things like that.
Interviewer [00:23:09] Going back to your dad’s store, what do you remember about the store?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:23:16] Well, it was at first- First it was a grocery store in delicatessen. I remember my mother working there, and I remember my father working there. And when we came home from school, we’d go into the store and then there’d be four or five steps that would go back into our living quarters. So we didn’t spend an awful lot of time. We’d spend time in the store in the evening because it was open quite late, as I remember. And then later on, when Prohibition was repealed, then my father applied for a liquor license. And then from then on he had a bar there. And that I remember well, because at that time I was probably close to being a teenager. And the same thing was true, you know, that we would come through the bar and it was all neighborhood trade. There were very few people that came from out of the neighborhood. There were people that worked in the steel mills, for instance, and would walk up and on their way up to catch the bus or streetcar, maybe. They would have their favorite bars to stop in. And they’d either stop in our bar or maybe the one on the corner that belonged to my uncle or maybe the one in the next bar block, because there were a number of bars. People drank in those days. [laughs]
Interviewer [00:24:49] When it was a grocery store, can you remember what types of food he sold?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:24:53] Oh, a lot of canned stuff. A lot of canned, yeah. And then we would have- There would be a Jewish bakery that delivered bread, fresh bread and rolls, and we would carry those. But primarily it was just groceries.
Interviewer [00:25:14] Did you have to work to make some extra money at all?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:25:19] There. I used to work at the store. I worked at the store, but as far as the. I worked when I was in high school, but that was just for a very short time.
Interviewer [00:25:32] When you went shopping for clothes, was that in the neighborhood or did you have to go downtown or elsewhere?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:25:40] Well, you know, the Central Viaduct was there at that time, and it was very easy to get into town. And from the time that we were maybe about 13 or 14, we went downtown and bought our own clothes. We were able to do that because, you know, we had- Our favorite stores was the May Company, of course, and Higbee’s. So at first, you know, my mother would go with us and help us select things. But after a while, when you became a teenager, why, then you picked your own things, more or less. Although there was a. There was local- On our street, there was a department store.
Interviewer [00:26:23] When you went downtown, did you guys take. Take a car or-
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:26:28] No, we took the streetcar.
Interviewer [00:26:30] Do you remember how much that cost?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:26:32] I think there was- I think it must have been about 5 cents, 5 or 10 cents.
Interviewer [00:26:36] How long did it take you to get to downtown?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:26:40] Probably about 10 to 15 minutes.
Interviewer [00:26:42] Was it like a social event, going shopping, or did you just go shopping, come right back?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:26:48] Probably just go shopping and then come right back. It was a social event when we went to the movie, you know, when we went to the Palace, and oftentimes we would just stop on the Square where the trolley left you off, and then walk, you know, to Playhouse Square. So there was quite a bit of walking in town.
Interviewer [00:27:10] Do you remember going to any amusement parks when you were younger?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:27:14] Oh, yes. Yeah, we went to Euclid Beach, Puritas Springs, Geauga Lake. What else was there? That’s about it. Puritas and, yeah, those three.
Interviewer [00:27:29] What can you remember about each park?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:27:32] Well, Puritus Springs had a very nice- I’m going to back up. Euclid Beach was probably the best because it was nicest. It was the largest. And I can remember that they had a nice carousel there. It was not a carousel as such, you know, that little kids would like, but it was like a- They called it a racing- You know, they had all the animals were-
Interviewer [00:28:11] It was like a racing carousel.
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:28:12] Racing carousel, yeah.
Interviewer [00:28:14] And then I believe Cedar Point owns that right now.
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:28:17] Okay. Yes, I think that’s right. I think that they did. So that was a special treat, you know, because that was a little bit more advanced than the other. And of course there was always that you were ahead of somebody else, you know. And then the Ferris wheel, they had a very nice- They used to call it the Bug, you know, that went around and then at a certain point there’d be a curtain, kind of a tarp that would enclose the, enclose the cars. And then, you know, you’d be in the dark and going around. And then after a while it. The caterpillar, it was called a caterpillar. It just opened up and there you were and the Ferris wheel. And of course the. The old mill race, you know, the one that went down into the water, that was a favorite too.
Interviewer [00:29:14] Do you remember riding the Flying Turns?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:29:18] One time only. I didn’t go in for any of that. But the Flying Turns was very exciting. Very exciting.
Interviewer [00:29:25] You remember the Funhouse?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:29:27] Oh, and the Funhouse, yeah. Not too much about what it was like, except that we went in and there was that huge, you know, woman that was standing in that picture of or the statue of the woman that was laughing. That was- I remember that. And then as far as Puritas Springs and there wasn’t anything especially there that I can remember. It had the regular, you know, the Ferris wheel, the carousel, but nothing outstanding. They had a terrific roller coaster there that I never rode, but everybody said it was the best. [laughs]
Interviewer [00:30:18] Did you go there on dates or with family?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:30:21] No, with family.
Interviewer [00:30:22] Do you remember what type of food you guys would eat there? Did you buy your food or did you bring picnics?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:30:28] Well, when we went to Geauga Lake we had- Often went by train. You’d go by train?
Interviewer [00:30:34] Do you remember how long that took to get there?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:30:37] Probably an hour, I’d say. And we always took a picnic lunch with us and we would eat in a wooded area. And then from that point we went to, across, not across the lake, but we went around the lake to the amusement park. And I guess that’s where- I don’t know what there is now. Probably Six Flags.
Interviewer [00:31:07] Probably, yeah. Do you remember what types of food you guys packed?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:31:09] Oh yeah, we- Sandwiches, cookies, hard boiled eggs, probably Coca-Cola, something.
Interviewer [00:31:19] Did you ever buy stuff inside the park or was it mostly brought home?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:31:23] No, when we got to the park, there would always be ice cream that we would buy or popcorn, maybe something to drink. And at Euclid Beach we didn’t bring anything. We just ate there. And oftentimes hot dogs or hamburgers, taffy. And then of course we went to Cedar Point. I forgot to mention that. And we went by boat to Cedar Point.
Interviewer [00:31:57] How long did that take?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:31:58] It probably took about three to four hours, I suppose.
Interviewer [00:32:01] That was a very long day.
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:32:03] Very long day. Yeah. And we would take things with us to eat there, too, because it was a long trip. And we would come to the end of the pier in that area. That’s Frontierland now, at Cedar Point. That’s where the boat would let you off. And there was a pier and then it was a long walk into the- Long walk into the park.
Interviewer [00:32:24] Did you enjoy Cedar Point?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:32:26] Oh, yes. Yeah, that was, you know, the boat ride was good. And in fact, I think I remember the boat ride, you know, and the walking more than I do the park itself. [crosstalk]
Interviewer [00:32:37] The park. It was more of an event in itself just to get there.
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:32:39] Yes, that’s right.
Interviewer [00:32:42] Alright, I’m going to change the side of the tape. [recording stops and resumes] Going back to Tremont, was crime a problem there? Were there any gangs?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:32:57] Yes, there were. I’m sure there was, you know, crime and there was, there were gangs. In fact, after I moved out of the area, I moved into a neighborhood where a former teacher at Tremont lived. And I got to know her pretty well. And she talked about a group of people from the University of Chicago having come to the area and did a study of the Tremont area. And they said that during that time, during the time that we went to school, that that area had more juvenile delinquency than any other place in the country. Now that was hard for me to believe.
Interviewer [00:33:46] What do you think contributed to that?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:33:49] Well, I think a lot of times, I think that, poverty to begin with, and the fact that the mother and father were away for long periods of time and had to work. There were many children and they published their results in a book that was called Amid Spires and Stacks. They kept that for a long time in the public library downtown in their stacks area, where you had to go and you had to get permission to take those books out. When I was a student at Western Reserve, I was taking a course in recreation, and our teacher at that time told us about this, and she said, now, if you’d like to, you know, you go to the library and get the book and you read about it and find out what was going on, you know, at that time. Well, it was really an eye-opener because I had no idea, we had no idea that all of this crime and these gangs were in the area. You know, they were in the area.
Interviewer [00:35:04] But they really did affect you.
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:35:06] They didn’t. Didn’t affect. And so that- I think that is probably something good to say about the way you were brought up, you know, because for. For one thing, we never, you know, we never cussed at home. We didn’t cheat, we didn’t steal, deal. We didn’t do anything like that. And I think it was the influence of the home and the church and the teachers too, you know, that kept a certain group within the straight and narrow. But I remember that this woman, I was telling you, the woman teacher that I was telling you about that lived in the area. In fact, she lived in this area. She said that at that time the principal of the school would not permit any of her teachers to read that book. You know, that it was- They were interested in reading about it because, of course, the people from the University of Chicago had come and done the kind of interviews that you’re doing, and they were interested in knowing the outcome of that and what was being written. And the principal was very reluctant. She wouldn’t allow them to read it. Of course, they could read it on their own if they wanted to, because she was afraid that they would be a little fearful about the area that they were teaching in. So that. That was always interesting to me. I read the book and as I say, it was really an eye-opener because it talked about the gangs on the South Side having fights with gangs from the East Side, you know, and they’re coming together and-
Interviewer [00:36:46] And what did they find about mostly?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:36:48] Well, they fought about, probably about territory, fought about girls, girlfriends and that kind of thing. And just, you know, to show, I guess, to show that this was their area and you were not to come in this area, that kind of thing. I wonder if that book is still around.
Interviewer [00:37:09] When you were a child, did your parents take you on vacations anywhere?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:37:13] Yes, we had an aunt that lived in New York. So about every year or two we would go,
Interviewer [00:37:19] Is this New York City?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:37:21] One aunt lived in the outskirts in a small town in New York. The other one lived in New York City. And then we always generally went to a cottage for a week. And that would be a cottage that would be in Willoughby, Willoughby-on-the-Lake, someplace out east. You know, in those days, the people there, I mean, it wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t an area where a lot of people lived. They just had little cottages and some people would rent them out.
Interviewer [00:37:59] Did you go with friends or just your immediate family?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:38:02] Just the immediate family and probably an aunt or two that would come along and a cousin.
Interviewer [00:38:08] What did you do there to entertain yourself?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:38:13] Swim, Yeah. Play games.
Interviewer [00:38:16] Swimming in a pool?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:38:18] No, swimming. Swimming in the lake. It was close to Lake Erie. Yeah.
Interviewer [00:38:26] Do you remember when Carl Stokes became mayor? What can you tell me about that? Were there any problems since he was an African American?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:38:39] No, I don’t think so. I think by the time he became mayor, I think it was pretty generally accepted, I think. I don’t remember any problems that there were.
Interviewer [00:38:56] Is there anything else you would like to add?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:39:00] Well, I think it’s- I think it’s a wonderful thing that you’re doing because it helps to bring back memories, and it also helps, I think, in helping people understand, you know, what went on before.
Interviewer [00:39:18] Do you think it was a better place to live back then than it is now?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:39:21] Oh, yes. Yeah, definitely.
Interviewer [00:39:25] Why do you say that?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:39:26] Well, I think because there was a sense of unity in the neighborhood there. And now I feel that, you know, there’s two definite types of people that are there. You know, the people that are living in the condos and then that are patronizing places like Lola’s and Fat Cats and things like that. And then the people that just are just residents of the area.
Interviewer [00:39:50] So you think it was more family-oriented years ago, and now it’s not so much family-oriented?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:39:58] But I don’t think that this. I don’t think particularly that this is just. Just in the Tremont neighborhood. I think it’s that way throughout. I think it’s just- I think it’s a sign of the times.
Interviewer [00:40:12] You grew up in the Tremont area. How long did you live there?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:40:16] We lived there for, I think I was 19 when I moved into this area.
Interviewer [00:40:24] Why did you move away from the Tremont area?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:40:27] Well, people were moving away, you know, from the area. People were moving out to Parma and to Brooklyn.
Interviewer [00:40:33] Do you know why they were moving out?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:40:35] Probably just because, you know, they felt that it was time to move on and to have a better home.
Interviewer [00:40:44] So you said they were bigger and better outside of Tremont?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:40:49] Yes, uh huh, and I wouldn’t say anything for the school system because I think the school system was good. You know, it was the same school system here. It was there. And in some respects, you know, I think the school system was very good there. For instance, we always had two periods of English every day. Every day. And, you know, as far as grammar and reading and understanding and sentence structure and things like that, I think we had a very, very good background.
Interviewer [00:41:22] Did many of your friends go to private school or was it all public school?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:41:28] Public and parochial. There were several parochial schools in the neighborhood.
Interviewer [00:41:33] Do you think they got a better education going to private school than public school?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:41:38] You mean to the parochial school?
Interviewer [00:41:40] Yeah, right.
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:41:42] No, I don’t think so.
Interviewer [00:41:43] You think the school system has changed now where it’s not as good?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:41:49] Yes, I’m afraid so. [laughs] I’m afraid so. But I think it’s turning around.
Interviewer [00:41:55] What do you think they can do to change to make it like it used to be?
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:42:00] More involvement by the parents, I think. And that’s not to say that there’s no involvement, because my daughter teaches in the Cleveland system and she teaches in the Harvard-Lee area, and those parents are very involved in their children’s school. But I think in some of the areas and some of the schools throughout the city, I think there’s not enough involvement of the parents.
Interviewer [00:42:31] Alright. Thank you very much.
Irene Pavlyshyn [00:42:36] Okay.
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