Abstract
Joe Nicklos shares his experiences growing up in Cleveland's Tremont neighborhood. Born in 1928 to immigrant parents from Hungary, Nicklos discusses his family's cultural background and the strong sense of community in Tremont. He reflects on his education, local social activities, and the role of the church in his life. The interview also addresses the impact of the Great Depression and World War II on the neighborhood, as well as the changes brought about by urban development. Nicklos's narrative provides valuable insights into the historical and cultural dynamics of his community during the 20th century. Poor sound quality.
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Interviewee
Nicklos, Joe (interviewee)
Interviewer
McClung, Sonia (interviewer)
Project
Tremont History Project
Date
2003
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
48 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Joe Nicklos interview, 2003" (2003). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 223063.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/1382
Transcript
[Very faint audio; a follow-up interview with better audio begins at 00:27:17 and recaps several of the key topics covered in the original interview.]
Sonia McClung [00:00:01] 2 PM. I’m interviewing a former Tremont resident as part of the Tremont Oral History Project in correlation with Cleveland State University. My name is Sonia McClung and please state your name and spell.
Joe Nicklos [00:00:15] Joe Nicholas. N, I, C, K, L, O, S is the last name.
Sonia McClung [00:00:20] And Joe, you went to school, you grew up in Tremont?
Joe Nicklos [00:00:22] I went to St. Augustine’s grade school and Lincoln High School. Graduated Lincoln in 1959.
Sonia McClung [00:00:30] And can you tell me about high school? Were there games while you were in high school?
Joe Nicklos [00:00:34] When I was at Lincoln High School there were not any games whatsoever. I think we started developing all the [inaudible]. … [inaudible] … I don’t you might have some people who probably dated as I see this organization was developed at that time. We call it on which kids who do not belong to organized facilities institutions such as America also the Wooden Charleston that they were just out there. They were sort of antisocial.
Sonia McClung [00:01:46] And when you were in school.
Joe Nicklos [00:02:58] Everyone else was.
Sonia McClung [00:03:02] And after high school, what did you do after high school?
Joe Nicklos [00:03:04] I went to Western Reserve University, passed all the tests. Then I got drafted. [inaudible] I got out of high school in [inaudible], started college after that. [inaudible] John Carroll University [inaudible] And after that I started teaching at John Marshall High School in the late ’50s. I was there for six or seven years. And I coached different sports. In those days if you coached a sport, you didn’t take class, they took a class. Instead of having six classes, we had five classes. I got my master’s degree from Kent State University and masters was in personnel administration. So I started off as a social service teacher [inaudible] administrator [inaudible] at two different schools. And then I left and became the administrator at Parma Heights [inaudible]. Social work, social background economics and education from Parma [inaudible]. Totally schools [inaudible] by parents or taken from the parents because they were not able to control them. So I was there for a couple years. For a few years. I started with Catholic diocese. I started doing all those in the consulting purchasing consulting for the diocese which covers eight counties. So I worked with them for about 22 years. I was involved in the, at that time, some of the schools [inaudible]. So I actually went into the buildings [inaudible] scratch furniture, everything I want to sell. With my background in education in social work and growing up where I purchased [inaudible]. I retired from there in 1991. [inaudible].
Sonia McClung [00:06:06] You started working with Merrick House also?
Joe Nicklos [00:06:09] I started working at Merrick House in 1956, January of ’56. Worked with them ’56 all the way up until late ’62, early ’63. And the only reason I left a counselor and administrator [inaudible]. There was only so many hats that you could [inaudible]. And that meant being there three or four or five months [inaudible] my job, my full-time job. [inaudible] So I left either in December or January ’63, so I was there about seven years.
Sonia McClung [00:06:45] And while you were there, what did you-
Joe Nicklos [00:06:49] Okay, I first started out within the organization, working with kids in the organization. This unreached youth came about like in the mid ’56. Because I knew the neighborhood. I knew the neighborhood because I was born and raised there. I spent my first 16 years living in the neighborhood, actually up until I was 17, 18 years old. In and out of the neighborhood. I was asked to identify these groups, which we called unreached kids, and to see what we could do as far as working with them on an individual basis. And we had to identify where they were. And I said the areas that they congregated was the Lincoln Park, along with the bathhouse, which is now condominiums, located across from the park, the project areas, CMHA, down in the lower part of the community there, the Clark-25th Street area, Meyer-25th, and then Rowley and West 14th. Those seemed to be four areas. And they congregated about the park because it was an area that they could play around and not be disturbed unless the police came by and all that. And Meyer Avenue was a playground over there. Rowley-West 14th Street, there was a grade school called Buhrer School there. They would concentrate there so they could sit near the building, fire escapes and all that. [inaudible] would be wide open area. And if the police were coming, they could see if they’re coming. They could take off, you know what I mean? Because it wasn’t like being on the corner like that. So they concentrated four or five [inaudible]. So my job was to go out there and identify myself to them. Start working with them all on the streets. And it’s slowly process of bringing them into the settlement. I would bring them in one at a time. The kids are sad afterwards. Because sometimes they’re overwhelmed or they get into battles with these kids. I brought them in and one of the things that they always felt, they always felt the [inaudible]. And by bringing them into the settlement house, I tried to get them to get involved. I gave them a [inaudible] before I have met a couple times play basketball. They were very- They played a little bit on the playground. They could not get out steal the ball not shooting. So I brought them in Saturday played this week and I [inaudible]. [inaudible] go through the process with them. And I started to- And I was the referee. So I started blowing the whistle at all the things that they did wrong. They thought they got whipped [inaudible], so called them wimps. And they didn’t like this. They were very upset. And I said, Well, you got to learn how to play. This is the way it’s played in high school. You got to learn the game. This is the way it’s played. You got to play by rules and regulations. [inaudible] So it was a way of showing them that they were not as tough as they thought they were if they play by the rules. And they were so shocked that these wimps so-called wimps [inaudible] looked decent and all that [inaudible]. [inaudible] was decent, not decent. But they were not as goodly looking as they thought they were. And they had shorts on to play basketball. These kids were wearing their jeans [inaudible] and all that. They got whipped like that. They said, We want to play them again. [inaudible] some of their weaknesses. They had a build upon to follow rules and regulations. People know what you do each other step forward. And many times what I had to do is I could not move forward and find out identify who I get to the leader also they have to find out who I am. Many times they would call to talk to someone. I said I was Joe Niklos. And they said, oh, you’re with the Lord’s people. They know who you are. And the next day the guy [inaudible] Someone from the Lords [inaudible] at the Merrick House and said to me, [inaudible] on the corner of 24th, 25th. [inaudible] said guys are checking on you, tell ’em you’re okay. So your integrity had to go a long way. You couldn’t say one thing and do something else.
Sonia McClung [00:11:52] [inaudible]
Joe Niklos [00:11:54] At one time there was. Then they became [inaudible] point of view. You know where the Riverside Cemetery is? [Sonia: Mm hmm.] One night someone knocked over a couple of the tombstones. The next day we found in the paper it said something about we thought it was the Lords group when in reality it was not the Lords any group. Police come around sometimes if you have a jacket on and stop and push you against the wall in those days and search you to see if you had contraband or knives or guns.
Sonia McClung [00:12:24] Because of the kind of jackets they wore?
Joe Niklos [00:12:26] Yeah, [inaudible]. Well, these kids got very upset because they had [inaudible]. [inaudible]. And here the stigmatism had once been bad stuff and the police would get on to them so we [inaudible] the jackets [inaudible]. There was a retraction, but it wasn’t on the front, it was on like page 56 or something. And so there you had it weekend those followers getting around doing things. And in many ways they were very helpful to me with identifying or giving the information about particular person is that and in an informal way I gathered information by talking to kids who I played ball with so I can get up to date on the kids who I am [inaudible]. But again I could never reform a group. It was an individual. The kids followed that individual. The individual followed what I was hoping to do with them. It was a long process. It didn’t take a week, two weeks. Some groups, you can bring them into the settlement halls and get them involved in the canteen. And these kid groups, once you got them organized and got them into the settlements. [inaudible], I’m saying things that were six foot long and maybe three or four foot wide might have their emblem that they put on their jacket. The Kings, the Lords, the Amboy Dukes. These kids were good. We’d bring them in there. We’d use the workshop. They were good with their hands. Some of them had art, artistic. And they would- The emblem that you saw on the jackets, the Lords, Amboy Dukes, and that. They would in turn put this out on a plaque that would hang on a wall. Around the gymnasium there might be boys and girls doing the same thing and have these up on the wall and sort of. They were really in. Now they were part of the organization and that’s what you wanted to work toward. And I would bring them in on a Saturday when no one was there, bring them to the gym, and they’d see this. How do you get those? Well, these are the kids who were out in the streets like you. And some were never- Some may not ever have been out in the streets. So not all the kids were in gangs. But these are the kids who come here, are active, you know, maybe use our canteen nights or get into the basketball league there or get into the ping pong things. We have tournaments and all that. Get involved in the activities of the community center, which the Merrick House was. Because of the [inaudible] wall here, they want to identify themselves and you can find the [inaudible]. And then I remember some of these things. But you had boys, [inaudible] the Lords. You had the Misters. You had the Kings. There’s so many other different groups that were there, but they were all up there. And then what we would put on is like an amateur nights at time with these groups. And they’d have to act something out. I remember one group doing at that time. I know big time wrestling is real big now, but then it used to be not as bad as it would be now. Then they use vulgarity [inaudible] that was actually wrestling on TV. But it was on every night of the week. Because television wasn’t that big at that time. And so we had like a tag team match with the kids or you have something else going on. So we put things that were out there for the community. Then they would act out. So sometimes you do one thing. Other singing groups are in the case of music. See, you’ve got them, and many times they thought this was below them. But when they, when you brought them to a situation, you saw the kids say hey, we could do that. What did we do? Or the one group that was so roughly chopping, we did the tag team match, you know, setting up like a ring and doing things of that sort. So again then you finally got them into doing other things. Some had some of the kids from the South were good with the guitar, sort of acting like Elvis or something, other groups and things of that sort. So you got them. So you really had them. Again, start where they were, take their talents that they have, which some of them didn’t realize, and sort of sway them into utilizing their talents for good as opposed to beating up on some men, kids, women, whatever the case may be. And as I say, it took a period of time. I worked in the community about seven years and some of them I had that whole seven year period. Some I taught them towards the end of the period or the beginning of the period. I might have at one time 4, 5, 6 groups. Some might be younger. I’d have [inaudible] when [inaudible] 10, 11, 12, 13 years old, try to identify them before they become teenagers [inaudible], and somebody would have them meet me. And I still had to have a couple nights out on the streets to bring kids in. So it kept you- What started off being part-time could be maybe 30 to 40 hours a week. So eventually I had to give it up and I became the counselor, administrator in the Cleveland public schools and all that. But again that was the- The essence was as I stated, we didn’t call them juvenile delinquents. We called them unreached youth. At the meeting of that was that they were not organized as far as they were antisocial, anti school, anti community. They were outside the well-known normal kids who went to canteens in school and settlement houses for art classes, basketball. They were just out there doing their thing. [inaudible] -identify them.
Sonia McClung [00:18:10] What actually did they [inaudible] on the street- [inaudible]
Joe Nicklos [00:18:14] Well. They did a lot of standing around, they did some drinking and at that time drugs was not a real big thing, glue sniffing and that sort of thing. [inaudible] some cheap stuff. They did a lot of rumbling with other groups, with people warning groups could not, did not come into their [inaudible]. So they weren’t into active sports in school. Eventually [inaudible] they found out how good they were. Also by continuing to provide an example [inaudible] college education [inaudible] awakening [inaudible] intelligence, you can utilize your intelligence towards school, towards work, towards relationships with other people. But then tough [inaudible]. I think I showed you [inaudible] as far as I’ll give you an example [inaudible] through the area. And I wasn’t supposed to be working, but you’re always working. When you see a group standing somewhere either [inaudible], I pull up [inaudible] car so you can get an idea how young it was there and you can see the attention that [inaudible] they were getting [inaudible] they went out of their way to do things like fishing. I’m not a fisherman [inaudible] they fish and rod together [inaudible]. I think the relationship [inaudible]. He was associate principal. To this day I think he had to experience [inaudible]. And I would do things, give him responsibilities, which I didn’t do going to eat something prepares them [inaudible] someone makes a fire, makes sure the fire’s not going to cause a problem, burn us down. There were a lot of raccoons out there, so made sure that the trash can wasn’t closed right ’cause sometimes we hear all that noise outside. We’re not going out there but there [inaudible] ton of kids out there in the corner out in the woods at night up in there [inaudible]. As I stated, [inaudible] and I used to like to do things to get them involved [inaudible]. [inaudible] Coach, somebody’s trying to get in. Well, get up and check it out. We’re not, there’s this tough kid on the front [inaudible] 2:00 in the morning they’re just a scared as the kid so they weren’t as tough. Yes they talked tough but they also had the same fears, which they didn’t want to show but they would in situations like this. [inaudible] Fifty years ago, mid ’50s [inaudible]
Sonia McClung [00:23:39] I just have one more question. Earlier you had mentioned to me your idea as to why when you were in high school [inaudible] you returned [inaudible]-
Joe Nicklos [00:23:48] Okay. We- Mainly because of our family situation. [inaudible] They went from a rural community to a city maybe [inaudible] in the country-
Sonia McClung [00:24:26] Where did they come from?
Joe Niklos [00:24:27] They came from West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, in the South, [inaudible]. So things that were not problems in their community [inaudible]. [inaudible] -down there, and they knew everyone. And up here- [inaudible] -so it was a big thriving city. [inaudible] They came from a rural community, a place where they [inaudible]. They felt that they were outsiders and they didn’t know, because of the language [inaudible]. They were not part of the [inaudible] of their community. So I think the [inaudible]. They were the first generation [inaudible]. After the war, [inaudible] jobs. Came looking for jobs [inaudible]. There’s no smoke now. [inaudible] The sky was black. So there were a lot of jobs. [inaudible] [00:27:10] [audio cuts out for three seconds]
[Presumably due to poor audio quality, a follow-up interview is conducted on another day. The follow-up interview is more audible, albeit with constant background conversation and music, suggesting the interview took place in a Tremont restaurant.]
Sonia McClung [00:27:17] I have a few more questions. Again, could you tell me the years you were worked for the Merrick House?
Joe Nicklos [00:27:22] From 1956 until 1963. I was attending John Carroll in the beginning and then after I went into teaching, I continued on for a few years.
Sonia McClung [00:27:31] Okay, and while you were, while you were in high school, there were not any games?
Joe Nicklos [00:27:40] You know, I asked a couple of my friends that too. It seemed like we didn’t have any organized games. We had groups of kids who might’ve come together because they came from certain grade schools or certain churches in the area. But there wasn’t any gang where they came together and caused any- The word gang denotes to me that they’re causing some problems. No, we didn’t have any. I graduated in ’51. I think they came about, and we were mostly first-generation kids. At Lincoln High School, we had more than 30 different nationalities within the school and it seemed like we came together a great deal and not have any problems. And I think after the Second World War you had an influx of people coming in from the South and they weren’t a part of the fiber of the community like we were for 20, 30 years, our families and that. My parents came here from Kansas in 1924. Okay, so they were really ingrained in the community. But I would think the possibility is that these kids who came in from the South, maybe they’re 8, 10 years old in 1947, ’48, ’49. By the time they got into those teen periods, they still were not a part of the group in here. And they seemed to form together with those who perhaps were not a part of the fiber of the community. And as I stated, the gangs seemed to congregate in areas around playgrounds, school yards and things of that sort. You know, the major, and the CMHA facility down in the projects, which is the end of Starkweather Avenue, Lincoln Park, the bathhouse, which was a city facility, and around Buhrer School.
Sonia McClung [00:29:27] And while you were in school, were there any cliques?
Joe Nicklos [00:29:31] Yeah, there were, there were, there were cliques of kids. I think the cliques were possibly because again, as I stated, if they came from the same elementary school, you know, and that. But it seemed like it wasn’t very hard to get involved with the groups. I didn’t find it hard at all, you know, that you might have started off with the kids who came from your, perhaps your parochial grade school and then went on to there. I think there was 11 or 12 of us who went to from our parochial school that went on to Lincoln High School out of a class of 44. So nearly a third of the kids who were from art of grade school went to the high school. But you soon, you don’t go to the same classes, so you start getting involved either through athletics or through other social activities, student council, things of this sort, in the school and that or club groups within the school. We had a number of things, crafts and things of that and so school. So I think kids got involved. And they didn’t stick to one thing, you know.
Sonia McClung [00:30:36] If kids weren’t in cliques, was the cliques mostly based on an ethnicity or race or was it on groups that they were in?
Joe Nicklos [00:30:45] We had very few from the, blacks within our school, so that was never an issue. I mean it never came up because maybe had one or two through all the time, I spent four years in school there. Again, as I said, we had a lot of nationalities and we were used as a United- It was called UNESCO. We were used as a form for how different nationalities have come together and we’re amalgamated. It was called the melting pot. I meant to bring you that article from our log, our paper, school paper in there. But it didn’t appear to me- I’m of Lebanese background, and I meet every, twice a month with a group of men that we put together. We have a banquet every two years for our high school that we graduated from. Anyone who played ball at Lincoln High School, and if you were to come to our breakfasts, you’d find - I’m Lebanese - Polish, Slovak, German, Irish. And we kid each other like anything, you know, we always do, and it’s never taken personally. It was part of the fabric of the community. You got used to it. In fact, if you couldn’t take a razzing, you better not come back the next day, you know. So it’s something natural to us. So it wasn’t a problem of having different nationalities. I think it was because we were first generations and the aspect at that time was did you become a part of the country? You know, part of the America rather than being separated from- Our parents really wanted to become part of this land. And so I think that’s why we didn’t have, at our particular period of time, I’m not saying didn’t have other places in that, but with our I can only speak of my situation in my high school.
Sonia McClung [00:32:36] And then when you returned from the war, you found that gangs had come into the Tremont area?
Joe Nicklos [00:32:44] Yeah, when I returned from the service. I think if you read the booklet I gave you, that in about 1954 they started identifying that there were gang groups that were becoming prevalent. And these social service agencies like the Merrick House, Goodrich House, that are throughout the city of Cleveland, got together. And it took them about two years to get, put forth this booklet here. And about that time was when I, in ’56, when I started working there. I was discharged in October of ’55, and I started working there in ’56. And one of the programs that I worked with, I started working with groups that were within the settlement house area. We had to go out and identify. We started identifying groups that were not in the settlement hall, who were not part of the coming to the community centers and things of this nature, who were out there in the parks, the playgrounds, and all the constant, and gathering together. 10 to 15 to 20 different kids who seem to be on that playground every night. And so my job was to go out and identify these individuals. Sometimes we’re called the Meyers Avenue group or, you know, Buhrer School group and things of this sort. And we went out to identify them and slowly try to identify who the leaders were, work through the leaders and slowly bring ’em into the center, as I stated the other day. And hopefully by that way of giving them some structure and some direction and some leadership as far as utilizing their talents that they have and also trying to get them to simmer down and not cause any problems within the community in there. I think we were very successful with a number of the groups and that. You’re not going to reach everyone, but you just can’t let it be out there and not do anything about. And I think we were very successful going out there. I could be working with three or four groups at one time in those days. Might have someone, one of the groups along the line, where I have them already into the Americas, where we started calling them a club group as opposed to a gang group. And then some of the others working with them at different stages and all that. But it was a constant, you know, evolutionary process, not something that just happened overnight and all that. And so I think it was added about seven years. So it went through a lot of different groups of kids and all that through the years. Have I answered your question or you didn’t?
Sonia McClung [00:35:13] I have a few more questions. Were the gangs at that time, were they based around a race or ethnicity?
Joe Nicklos [00:35:23] No, [crosstalk] they were across- They were across the board. A good number of them could be the Appalachian. You know, some were who lived in the community. We didn’t have at that particular time the Puerto Rican factor and that, they weren’t coming here in droves in the ’50s. They didn’t start coming till much, much later. I’m sure you understand that. But I think the larger part of the groups were kids from West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, who came, and from the South, along with individuals who were here, whose parents were here, who were not first-generation, probably second-generation individuals, who might have come in because of the job situation from wherever they lived. And you had the steel mills here, which provided thousands of jobs for people to come in and that. And what attracted them was the proximity to the steel mills. And you couldn’t look at the sky unless you saw darkness here because of how many steel mills we had down in the Flats there off of Jennings Road and that. So I think they came here, settled there because of being very close to their jobs. And these were the boys and girls of that generation.
Sonia McClung [00:36:43] And what were some of the other names of the gangs? You mentioned a few. What other things did they call themselves?
Joe Nicklos [00:36:51] Well, I hate to really put the names out. I thought about these the other day because I don’t want these kids to think that they were gangs in the end, you know what I mean? So I won’t mention- I mentioned the names of names like the Kings, the Amboy Dukes. But these individuals became good [inaudible]. In fact, I know some of ’em today that became teachers and doctors and things of this sort, that they got straightened around. Good business people and that. But some of the groups were at that time the Misters, the Kings, the Amboy Dukes, as I stated, the Lords. There were so many others, I can’t remember all of them. It goes back nearly 50 years ago. So.
Sonia McClung [00:37:30] How did they identify themselves? Did they wear certain colors or did they- Did they act in a certain way?
Joe Nicklos [00:37:40] Some of ‘em actually got jackets where they put an emblem on front, name of the group on the back. And some did not do this. Ones that were perhaps more organized within themselves want to be identified as a particular group. And in many occasions, once we got them acclimated to become good citizens or do the right thing, if something happened in the community or walking down the street- I think I told you about the incident where the Riverside Cemetery and one evening the tombstones were all knocked over, and one of my groups was walking down the street. Police stopped them. In those days, the police did a lot of things that they can’t do today. Police stopped them, put them up against the wall, you know, searched them and did questioning of them. All that. And the next day the newspaper had stated that the possibility of this, even stronger than that, that this was attributed to a particular group. Well, it wasn’t the group. In fact, I got really uptight with the second police district there and contacted them and that and the retraction came in a newspaper, like page 56. And by having that jacket, it sort of identified them in the community as being bad. And at this point they weren’t bad. They were, they weren’t getting into trouble. And I sort of said, hey, maybe we better get rid of our jackets. But that day and age, the economic level of these kids were not to a point where they’re going to get rid of a jacket that’s keeping them warm at the same time identifying them. But it was a struggle for some. And then when they started getting good, they were on walking down 25th Street and Clark and that and something happened, Boom. The police would stop and assume it was them, you know, this particular group or other groups. So some did have identification. And I stated that once we moved ‘em into the Merrick House where they became what we call club groups, we, to get them to be identified with the settlement house, if you saw an emblem on someone’s chest that was maybe a 6 inch emblem by 4 inches, we took that same emblem and they designed all this themselves and made a plaque that would be like 5 or 6 feet long and 3 or 4 feet wide. And they hung on the gymnasium wall. And it would be boys’ and girls’ groups that were there. So it’s a matter of being identified as- And they themselves- We had a wood shop at the Merrick House, craft room and all. They would come in there, maybe they would work on it for three or four weeks, you know, once of twice a week, to cut it out, paint it, construct it, and then hang it there. And so, like, this was a sort of like a final triumph for them that they became part of the- They walk in and there’s our, you know, our plaque. And as I say, the plaque was full size. It’d be 5 or 6 feet by 3 or 4 feet. You know, it would hang on the wall. So it wasn’t something small, 5 by 6 inches. And it was very ingenious by them because they tried to outdo the other person’s plaque. And as I said, a lot of these kids had talents but they weren’t utilized or directed. And you found out within a group, goodness, this kid’s a good artist or this kid’s really good at constructing things and that. And they didn’t have that opportunity. So you took their talents and put ’em towards some meaningful, some worthwhile, and they found out that they had these talents. And then by bringing ’em in, we had what we called stunt nights. You know what I mean by a stunt night?
Sonia McClung [00:41:46] Like a talent show?
Jim Niklos [00:41:47] A talent show. Okay. And to get them involved in that, and sometimes you had to get them involved by using their- They were rough and tumble kids. And at that time wrestling was tag team matches in the ’50s and ’60s. I know it’s on TV too, but this is vulgarity today as compared to what, I mean, I wouldn’t advise anybody to watch today. It was, they wrestled. You knew it wasn’t for real, but they did a lot of things. And so today you have it where there’s, you know, everything- It’s obscene. I don’t understand how parents even take kids to it. See, but then it was roughhouse wrestling and you knew it was fake, but people enjoyed it, it was entertaining and that. And so the kids were like put on a tag team match, meaning two against two with another group, and have a referee, and the people act like they’re in the stands. There was a lady called Hatpin Mary in that day. If she didn’t like a wrestler and she had a long hatpin, if they came over close to the edge of the ring, she would stick ’em. Well, you had one of the guys dressed up as Hatpin Mary, you know, so you were to put on the whole show, announcer and that. So you’d get 8, 10, 12 kids and, and get the whole group involved. Four wrestlers, referee, Hatpin Mary, an announcer, a radio or TV announcer, and then somebody in the ring and all that. So that’s just an example of some of the things you, you do with them, you know, by giving an idea. So that would be a talent show. And these kids started realizing that they could compete with these kids who were so-called goody-goodies, you know, and also that they became a part of the community, as far as being outside and all that. I hope I gave you a good enough example there.
Sonia McClung [00:43:29] Definitely. The only other question I have is before you reached them, what activities did these gangs participate in on a day to day basis? And also what got them into trouble?
Joe Nicklos [00:43:42] Number one, is they had a lot of time on their hands. They weren’t doing well in school because right after school or as early as possible, they would be in the playgrounds, street corners, pool halls, you name it. And by having idle hands, somebody might suggest, let’s do this or let’s do that. Also somebody might be coming up the street or across the park that they felt like they didn’t like ’em, they’d jump ’em and beat ’em up. Or a man or a woman could be coming through and take their purse or something like that. You know, things of this nature. Did they commit major mayhem, in other words, killing them? I know of none, but beating up people? Yes. Theft, maybe run into a store, grab something, running out, things of this sort. Then at times fighting against each other, you know, where they fought against each other, where someone said something to someone and something other and boom, they do some battles and all that. And on a number of occasions I had to be- When I found out about this, I had to be an arbitrator, come down and both groups knew me. And you had to put- And if we got them to a talking stage, you know, then we could put out the fire and that. And one of the- And many times this happened because someone within the group would come to me and say something’s gonna be happening and that, a rumble. And if I got the information quick enough, I was able to stop it. If I couldn’t get, didn’t have the information, didn’t happen. And therefore what you had to do if that happened, then you’d have to go out and start talking before it came to a point where somebody’s gonna really kill someone or something like that. And I would say in most instances, if you got to the group or you got to someone within the group, they were more help to you than anyone else could be in that. But then again - I’m being repetitious here - it’s spontaneous things as opposed to planned.
Sonia McClung [00:45:55] And did the gangs typically carry any weapons with them?
Joe Nicklos [00:45:59] The only thing I ever know is knives and things of that sort, but not as far as any- I never knew of any pistols or things of that nature. These kids were from a very low- When I say low, I mean economic point. But they didn’t have the money to, or the know-know how, perhaps too. I knew of none. There could’ve been, but I knew of nothing at all. But I would say how they spent their- They drank a lot. And in those days you could get a pint of wine for half a buck or 35 cents. You know, so it’s easy, go in and somebody get it for you. And it could be easily hidden, if you know what a pint of wine looks like, in your jacket or things of the sort. But if you got in the group, you could smell this too. You got in the group, you could smell that they’ve been doing some drinking. And most of the time it was very cheap thing so they can get sick on it too. And also from that there was some glue sniffing going on. You know what I’m saying? The glue sniffing, where they put it in their bag, and that got them high on that. And you very easily tell when they were drinking or- And many times when they did this is when they did, they got into problems. It was their way of getting what they called high or getting their, you know, getting a kick out of something or other, you know. But that’s- And the weapons I only knew is in reference to knives and that, not as far as guns and that. And maybe a club of some sort, you know, that they made up, something that they made up that would be, could be used in fighting and that. So.
Sonia McClung [00:47:46] Well, I think that’s all. Thank you very much.
Joe Nicklos [00:47:47] Appreciate it. If I can be any further help just let me know, okay?
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