Abstract
Edward Kovacic, former Police Chief with the Cleveland Police Department, discusses his involvement investigating the assassination plot against Mayor Dennis Kucinich in 1978. He discusses how the CPD found out about the case, his investigation of the plot, his interactions with the assassin, "The Old Man," and why the investigation ended without an arrest. Other topics include his beginnings with the police department, the Maryland State Police, Dennis Kucinich's relationship with the CPD, Municipal Light, Tommy Sinito, and Ray Laird.
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Interviewee
Kovacic, Ed (interviewee)
Interviewer
Raeder, Adam (interviewer)
Project
Project Team
Date
1-2-2000
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
58 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Ed Kovacic interview, 02 January 2000" (2000). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 999105_851001.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/1033
Transcript
Adam Raeder [00:00:01] All right. Okay. So today is March 14, 2010, and I am here with Ed Kovacic. First off, just to start, when did you join the Cleveland police department?
Ed Kovacic [00:00:19] I was sworn in August 31, 1959.
Adam Raeder [00:00:25] Wow. You know the exact date?
Ed Kovacic [00:00:26] Oh, yes. I’ll never forget it.
Adam Raeder [00:00:31] Why did you join the police department?
Ed Kovacic [00:00:33] I always wanted to be a policeman, and my dad was a low ranking politician. He didn’t want me to be a policeman. My eyes were borderline. And he said that he would do anything in his power to stop me from being a policeman. And it took a while to convince him, but finally he backed off, and I was able to get on.
Adam Raeder [00:01:02] What was it about being a policeman that drew you to it?
Ed Kovacic [00:01:09] I think that it was. I knew a policeman by the name of Billy Tofant, and he used to stop by our house on 96th street off St. Clair. And back in those days, the police cars were, I believe, red, white and blue, as I remember. And he would stop by in his uniform and in his police car. And I thought, wow, I want to be a policeman. The stories he would tell and the things that he did were just something I wanted to do. And I’ll tell you something else. I saw things happen when I was a kid growing up, and I really wanted to get on the department to stop some of the things that I saw when I was a kid. There were some bad practices back then. I grew up right in the heart of Cleveland, and I saw some things that weren’t right.
Adam Raeder [00:02:16] Where in the heart of Cleveland?
Ed Kovacic [00:02:18] Well, we lived in a lot of houses during the depression. I grew up during the Depression and then World War II. And I think before I was eleven years old, I think we lived in eight houses. Yes, eight houses before I was eleven years old. But basically it was always somewhere around 79th and St. Clair, out to about 110th and St. Clair, but always in that general area, northeast Cleveland, and not in the more affluent sections of northeast Cleveland.
Adam Raeder [00:03:02] Well, if you invited a police officer in you knew as a child for all the stories he had, you’ve definitely gotten some of your own.
Ed Kovacic [00:03:11] Oh, yes, a few. More than a few.
Adam Raeder [00:03:12] Including this one. So just how did you become involved in this whole Dennis Kucinich thing to begin with?
Ed Kovacic [00:03:23] Well, I have to, really, since the last time we talked, I thought about it. I was in the intelligence unit for quite a while. I started there as a detective, promoted the sergeant, and they kept me in the intelligence unit as a sergeant. And we primarily, we investigated organized crime, but we also met because of where we were. We met the people in that unit met law enforcement officers from every agency in northeast Ohio and worked with very, very closely with them. I got promoted to lieutenant, and I was assigned to the scientific investigation unit because while I was in the intelligence unit, I developed some expertise in bombs and explosives. Cleveland at that time was called the bomb capital of the United States. We had an organized crime war going, and one of the units in the scientific unit was the bomb squad, the people that went out and defused the bombs and gathered physical evidence at the crime scenes and so forth. And so for that reason, when I was promoted to lieutenant, there was a lieutenant in the intelligence unit. I went into this the other end. In the intelligence unit, you investigated the reasons behind the bombings and hopefully tried to make an arrest, if you could. And then in the scientific unit, you took the other approach. You went about it as a means of gathering scientific evidence to prove who committed that bombing. And while I was there, one day I received a phone call, and this caller on the other end of the line identified himself as a sergeant in the Baltimore State Police. His name is Ray Leard. And he said that I was one of two people that he was told could be trusted completely in the Cleveland police Department. And that recommendation came from an FBI agent who had retired and was working for the attorney general of the state of Ohio. This Ray Leard first called the attorney general’s office, spoke to this retired agent. The agent said, call Ed Kovacic. And then he proceeded to tell me this outlandish story, that they were going to kill Dennis Kucinich and that he was members. He was a member of a special undercover unit in Baltimore whose sole duty was to investigate, contract, or to set up and be part of any kind of a hit, any kind of a killing, you know, for money. I couldn’t believe him, so I didn’t believe him. I said, uh huh, yeah. And I thought it was a policeman pulling my leg, you know. So I said, I’ll call you back. He said, I’ll give you the number. I said, no, you won’t. I’ll call back. And I got an operator, and I got the phone number of the Maryland State Police, and I called their switchboard, and I asked for Sergeant Ray Leard, and they connected me to this man. I couldn’t. I still had difficulty believing what he told me. Basically, his story was that he was working undercover and had a professional hitman that he had converted and was now. He knew Ray. Sergeant Ray Leard was a police officer, this hitman, but Ray had something on him. So the guy had to work with him, you know. And he said that this man had been up to Cleveland and was going to kill Kucinich during a parade in Cleveland, and something had happened. Kucinich went to the hospital, and so he went back to Baltimore, and they. He brought Ray into this plot to kill Kucinich. So we didn’t have a real. We didn’t have a chief then. We had an acting chief, and he had been taken out of the chief’s office the day before with what they thought was a heart attack. And no one was supposed to talk to him. And I didn’t know who else to talk to. This guy I knew was absolutely straight, you know, very trustworthy. His name was Ed Ngorsky, and he was right under. He was next position down in the pecking order from the chief, and a real good guy and a friend. Well, he chewed me out for calling him, you know, and he said, this better be important. What is it? And I said, well, I had a call. I verified it. It’s the truth. There is a plot to kill Dennis Kucinich. There was silence on the other end of the phone. I said, is that important enough? He says, yes. Then we discussed what to do and what steps to take, and he told me to take in confidence another man we both knew by the name of Bobby Gallagher. And I did. And very quietly, we beefed up security at the hospital. That was our first step. But we had to really confirm this thing. So I made arrangements for Sergeant Leard to bring this man up to Cleveland. I wanted to interview him. Ray agreed. They flew up in a. As a matter of fact, it was Ray’s idea, not mine. It was Ray’s idea to fly this man up in one of their planes, one of the state police planes, and meet with me so I could determine for myself just how credible this outlandish story was. During the discussions I had with Ngorsky, a name came up. Tommy Sinito, who was an organized crime figure that I knew from my days. I didn’t know personally, but I knew by reputation from my days in the intelligence unit that he was an integral part of what you might call the Cosa Nostra. And I learned later he became a sworn member. I mean, he took the oath and everything later, but he was earning his way up in the ranks at this time. So we set up a little plan to see, to test the veracity of the so called hitman. And the way we did it was I took four photographs in a lineup, and the very next photograph was one of Tommy Sinito. And the idea was, when you’re doing something like this, you do that because you don’t watch those photographs. You watch the face of the man looking at the photographs, because if they recognize him, there’s going to be something in their facial expression that gives them away. Even if they say, no, I don’t recognize them. Their body language is saying, well, yes, I do. And then after that, I put in every member of organized crime that I could think of in Cleveland. There was about eight or nine of them. So the plane landed, I got on board, and the hitman, as I remember, he had a broken arm or a broken shoulder. There was a cast, and his arm was like on a brace up in the air, forming, like, a right angle. And we talked for a few minutes, and then I brought out the photographs. And when he came to Sinito’s photograph, he didn’t hesitate. Oh, oh. Originally in the phone call with Ray Leard. I have to go back. Ray told me that his contact man in Cleveland, he only knew by the name of Tommy. That’s how we came up with Sinito’s name. Yeah, I skipped that.
Adam Raeder [00:13:21] I was wondering. I was going to ask in a little bit.
Ed Kovacic [00:13:24] Yeah, well, Tommy, that’s how it came about, because Ray said that they only knew that his name was Tommy. So when the hitman got to Sinito’s picture, he just casually flipped it out and said, that’s Tommy. Then he started going through the rest of the pictures, and I saw him getting upset. Let’s say that’s the only word. There was something about his demeanor that changed. And he turned to Ray and he said, let’s get out of here. And Ray said, why? What’s the matter? He said, my arm’s hurting. Let’s go back. I want to go back now. So they took off. They left. I went back to the station and Ray called me. Now, I’m not going to use police language. I’m not going to use any obscenities in this. But Ray called me, and in a very agitated way, he said, what the blank did you do? I had no idea what he was talking about. And he said, the old man. And that’s what we called him. Never knew his name, just the old man. And he said, the old man said that you had the pictures of every made man in the Cosa Nostra after Tommy’s picture. And he figured Tommy was a made man and he didn’t want anything to do with this deal. And I said, well, Tommy’s not a made man. I said, tell him that, you know, it’s okay. He’s not a made man. And I just did that. Tell him why I did it. You know, I wanted to see what would happen. So he called me back a few days later, and he said, well, he’s back on board now. In the meantime, a reporter from the Plain Dealer, he later became an editor. And I really can’t. I can’t think of his name offhand, although it might come to me later. But he was a very, very aggressive reporter. He called and said, hey, have you heard anything about a plot to kill Kucinich? And I said, why? And he said, well, I’m picking up that he was going to get killed in this march. And that’s why he went in the hospital. And his first name was Bob. And I said, Bob, do you trust me? He said, yes. And I said, okay, lay off this. Don’t write anything about it. And when the time comes, I’ll tell you what is going. You’ll have firsthand what’s going on. But until then, please don’t write anything. It’s that important. And he agreed. And he never did. He never wrote anything about the information he had. The next step was for my former partner in the intelligence unit, a fellow by the name of Andy Vaniel [?]. He had been out of town, and his was a second name that had been given to Ray Leard by the FBI agent. Andy was still in the intelligence unit. When he got back. He was going to a school. When he got back, we briefed him and we went to Baltimore. It was an unbelievable time there. Ray and this hitman took us to some of the most. Oh, my gosh, I still. I blush when I think about the places he took me. And they introduced me to a man who was somehow had gotten in trouble with the organized crime family, I believe it was, in Philadelphia. And they exiled him to Baltimore, and he set up this bar. And of course, my partner and I wouldn’t drink. But our story was that we were from Detroit. I could never figure out why they wanted to do that, because we didn’t know a thing about Detroit and that we were in town to hire a hitman to kill our partner. And this fella that ran the bar, owned the bar, you know, this fellow that was exiled by the mob in Philadelphia said he was sitting down and he heard that, and he said, well, you come to the right place. This guy here, I know for a fact he can help you out, and it will never come back to you. So that kind of confirmed.
Adam Raeder [00:18:45] This guy being the old man?
Ed Kovacic [00:18:46] The old man. It kind of confirmed that the old man was really what he said and what Ray said. Then we met with the head of the unit there, and we also talked to somebody else. I don’t. I’m not even sure if it wasn’t the governor. I’m not sure. But we talked to somebody pretty high up in government there over the phone, and they gave permission for the Maryland State Police to bring a surveillance vehicle and a car with four of their officers in that car to Cleveland and work with us to bring this thing about to see how, you know, if we could get enough evidence to arrest the people involved here in Cleveland. But I remember when we were. When we were up there, when we were down there in Baltimore and bar hopping, the informant got pretty drunk, and we got a lot of background information on the first attempt. And then I asked him if he knew why they wanted Kucinich killed. And he said. He says it’s got something to do with the electric company up there. Kucinich is stopping something connected with an electric company. That’s all I know. Well, that would be Muny Light. And at that time, or Cleveland Public Power, as it’s known today. And there was a real, real serious attempt by a lot of powerful people to sell Muny Light. They wanted to get rid of Muny Light. And the reason was when the Illuminating Company would go to the PUCO, Public Utilities Commission of Ohio, and argue rate hikes, the utility commission would. The mayor would send down a representative from Cleveland Public Power, and they’d say, well, I don’t know the exact rates, but let’s say the Illuminating Company was asking for $10 a volt, or however they measure electricity, and the Muny Light plant was producing electricity. And they would testify they were making money selling this electricity for $7 a volt. So they would deny the Illuminating Company these raises. So my understanding was that there was some kind of a kitty for whatever politician could bring this about, you know, that. I don’t know, campaign promises, you know, campaign donations or what, but it was a legitimate thing. You know, I didn’t mean that Illuminating Company didn’t hire a hitman, but somebody did who wanted to get in on this bounty that they were offering to whoever could get rid of Cleveland Public Power. That’s my understanding. Now, I have no inside information, and I could be 100% wrong.
Adam Raeder [00:22:36] And you have no idea what the mob’s interest in the Illuminating Company making more money was?
Ed Kovacic [00:22:43] No, none. That’s the only logical conclusion that you could come to. But there was, in fact, a great deal of pressure to sell Muny Light. And the only person standing between that sale and the status quo was Dennis Kucinich. He said, no, we are not selling Muny Light. And he said it, he meant it, and he just would not budge. So what other conclusion can you draw?
Adam Raeder [00:23:19] Hold on 1 second.
Ed Kovacic [00:23:36] What, a little loud were they getting?
Adam Raeder [00:23:38] Yeah. Okay. Anyway, so the old man told you that he knew that, all he knew was that it somehow involved the electric company.
Ed Kovacic [00:23:52] Yeah.
Adam Raeder [00:23:53] And what did he tell you in terms of background on the first attempt?
Ed Kovacic [00:23:57] Well, that came after they came to Cleveland. We met with them. The first meeting we had was with him. My people, Cleveland people, Maryland State Police was in the Holiday Inn out there in Euclid. I don’t think it’s a Holiday Inn anymore, but that’s where we first met. And right there, the old man started getting jumpy. And Ray told me later he was comfortable with Ray’s people, he was comfortable with me, but he was not comfortable with the people I brought in from Cleveland. I don’t know why he never explained that. But anyhow, in any event, Ray and I by ourselves took the old. Oh, I should tell you this. All the people that were working on this went to the Bond Court hotel, all of our men and the Baltimore people, and we had rooms there, and we were not allowed to be out of each other’s sight for any reason. So there was always two people together so that no one could make a phone call to somebody. We were, you know, really afraid of, of a leak of some kind. And I think we stayed there two nights. But anyhow, we were taking this very seriously. The old man took me around and we got to City Hall, and he described City Hall perfectly. And he said, you can’t get at the mayor because inside because of this, and you can’t get out because of this. He described all the ins and outs of City Hall. He had been through that building. And then he told me that he was going to take Kucinich out on that march. So that information that was coming from independently from the Plain Dealer reporter was verified. He said, yeah, I was going to take him out during a march. He was involved in a march. He knew the route. And he says, I was looking for a place. And then he went to the hospital.
Adam Raeder [00:26:40] Do you remember what march that was?
Ed Kovacic [00:26:44] No, I don’t. It was some kind of a civil rights march, as I remember. It was something to do with, with civil rights, but I’m not sure exactly beyond that. I did know at one time, I don’t know. And then we asked him how he was going to do it, and he said, well, Kucinich always has breakfast at a diner on the west side. And that was common knowledge that was in the papers and everything. And he said, I went to the building there. And he said, the best building for me to get a shot at him, he was going to use a rifle, scope sighted rifle. And he said, the best place for me to get a shot at him was from this one building. And he said, but I couldn’t because it couldn’t get up to the roof. The only way to get up on the roof of this building, you had to go into a store to get up the roof. So he said, I did find a building directly across the street from this diner, and I was going to take him out after he had eaten and was in the process of leaving. And he said, I’d had a clear shot at him from this other building. So we went down to the site, and everything that he had said he had been there. I mean, there’s no doubt in my mind everything that he told us was absolutely true. Then we went to the. Oh, and then he said that another reason he had chosen the particular building was because there was a door, that the roof was actually on top of the second floor, as I recall, the two story building. And there was a door. You had to go up a ladder to get on the roof, but there was a door that was always left open, a back door during the day, and it was a business place. So his plan was to go up on this roof, kill Kucinich, just drop the rifle right there, and go down the very rickety ladder down to this doorway, go in the building, mingle with the crowd, which he expected would be leaving the building, to see what was going on, and just calmly walk away. And we went to the building. Rickety old ladder. We climbed up to that roof, thinking that ladder was going to give way. And everything that he said was 100% on the money.
Adam Raeder [00:29:53] Now, the diner was Tony’s Diner.
Ed Kovacic [00:29:55] Tony’s Diner, right, right.
Adam Raeder [00:29:59] And, like, what was the view like when you got onto the roof? Was it obvious he was gonna have a shot?
Ed Kovacic [00:30:06] Oh, yes, absolutely. I think even anyone halfway familiar with firing a rifle could have taken the shot, even without a telescopic sight. I mean, open sights would have been fine from that distance, and, yeah, it would have been a good, clean shot.
Adam Raeder [00:30:32] Now, was this going to happen the day of the parade, or were these two separate incidents?
Ed Kovacic [00:30:36] Two separate. This was what he was going to do after the parade was canceled, he was contacted when he went back to Baltimore, and they said, well, pick another way. This was the way he picked. Oh, I should tell you this. The reason he. Ray told me the reason that the old man opened up to him was they were out one night, and Ray said, you know, he was drinking, but the old man was taking speed. He was a speed freak. And they got back to the hotel room, and the old man was babbling on, babbling on. And he said, you know what? I just got back from Cleveland. I’m going to take out the mayor there. That’s how. That’s what happened. I should have probably started there, but, you know, I’m going back to things that happened when? 1977 and 78? Somewhere in there.
Adam Raeder [00:31:42] Kucinich was elected in 77.
Ed Kovacic [00:31:44] Yeah. So then we arranged a meeting with Tommy, and Ray Leard was wearing a microphone, you know, a transmitter, and we wired him, and we had the state police in their surveillance vehicles, and we were surrounded. We surrounded the place, waited.
Adam Raeder [00:32:15] Where was this place?
Ed Kovacic [00:32:16] Port O’ Call on Brookpark. And Ray would go to the bathroom to talk to us. And he went into the bathroom and he said, Tommy’s here. Tommy’s here. And he went back out, and we’re waiting and waiting, and he comes back in the bathroom and he says, something’s going on. He said, when I came out the first time after talking to you, I caught the old man giving Tommy the off sign, and Tommy left. Tommy got up and left. So we called it off. We debriefed him. And Ray said, I don’t know what happened. He said, but I caught the old man giving him a sign to get out. Tommy, a sign to get out. And the old man wouldn’t explain why. He admitted it. He said, yeah, I did. He said, why? He says, I don’t want to get involved in this. It’s too dangerous. I still think Tommy’s in. I think he’s a made man. But something about the Cleveland crew is what spooked him. I don’t think there was any real cause for it. I think he just didn’t trust. He trusted me because he knew, you know, he knew me and he trusted my partner. But when we brought in these, he thought he was going to be working with all people from Baltimore. When he saw that we were Cleveland police, police, he just figured the odds are that one of them is going to talk. One of them is going to say something, you know. So before he left, every morning, I think it was every. I don’t remember now. But quite often, members of this organized crime family would meet in a restaurant on Chagrin somewhere. I don’t even. I don’t remember where it was. And Ray and the old man walked in to see if there was any recognition between the old man and these guys, you know, these made men. And Ray said that they stared at him, they looked at him, but nobody spoke to him. I guess that they went back to Baltimore. Ray calls me every once in a while, or he called me for a couple years, but I think that was kind of the end of it.
Adam Raeder [00:35:13] So what was the purpose of having him go into that restaurant?
Ed Kovacic [00:35:17] Just to see what reaction there would be with these organized crime people? Would there be any recognition? Or would they invite him over and say, come? Did they even know him? We were still testing his credibility. There were people on my squad that. The people, the squad we had put together that thought we were nuts. There was really nothing to it. But I was convinced it was right. Because when the old man lays out City Hall for me, tells me, you can’t get a shot from the railroad tracks, you can’t do this, you can’t do that. And then he starts talking about buildings that he had looked over and how you get up on the roof and things like that. He had been to Cleveland. He had cased out City Hall. He had cased out the site that he chose to pull off this assassination. There was no doubt in my mind about that. Why would he do that? Why would he go through all this if it wasn’t a real, honest to God plot to kill Dennis? There’s no explanation for him lying, nor could he lie as completely as he did pick out. This is Tommy. Ray Leard, a police officer, says, yeah, Tommy’s here. Tommy’s here. Why? Why? Why? Everything adds up to in my mind and in the minds of my superiors, my bosses, that this, in fact, was a legitimate attempt to kill the mayor.
Adam Raeder [00:37:15] Why do you think there was no other attempt on Kucinich?
Ed Kovacic [00:37:21] I think that the old man, when he got back, Ray told me that what the old man did was he told people that he found out Ray was a policeman. That’s why they called off the hit. And he had no way of knowing that Ray was a policeman. And that’s why he off. Tommy told Tommy to get out. And that kind of boosted him up in the eyes of the mob, you know, that he. That he reacted the way he did when he found out Ray was a policeman, so. And they disbanded. Oh, and I don’t think I told you, I went to their office of this squad that Ray had told me about. Frankly, I didn’t. I didn’t believe they would do that. Have a regular unit whose only job was to solicit contract killings or get, you know, pretend to solicit them and then make arrests. I said, how many arrests have you made? He said, we made a dozen last year, a dozen arrests on contract murders. Husbands want their wives killed, you know, things like that. Motorcycle guys. But they had a whole office. I think I going to say there was probably six guys in Ray squad, and they had an insurance office. They had a name of an insurance company, and they posed as insurance salesmen, and they would take contract hit and they’d go. And I asked Ray, I said, is it unusual? You know, here you are up in Cleveland. He said, no, we go to. We’ve been to New York a couple times on this, and we worked with New York police. It was quite a setup they had there. Difficult to believe. Difficult to believe.
Adam Raeder [00:39:29] Then on the first hit during the parade, when he couldn’t get him during the parade, did he give you any idea of how he was gonna pull it off during the parade? Had it still gone on?
Ed Kovacic [00:39:43] No, he, he. You know what? I’m not sure on that. I’m not sure now that he did, but I think he was in the. He was here, and he was in the process of looking for a spot, knew the parade route. And then Dennis didn’t make the parade, but I’m not sure if I know. He never took us any place and said, this is where I was going to take him out during the parade. But he did take us to City Hall. Describe the inside of City Hall, described the back of City Hall, and took us to the place where he was going to whack him.
Adam Raeder [00:40:32] All right. And then when Dennis became sick, he went to the hospital with an ulcer, I believe was deal. Then he got. Then there was a whole hubbub in the papers because he got out of town and no one knew where he was. Was him getting out of town in any way connected with, like with the fact that there was a hit out on him, or was it just advice of doctors?
Ed Kovacic [00:40:58] No. You know, from then on in, all of the things that he did were done without the department. I mean, he didn’t tell us. He didn’t say anything. He didn’t ask for any advice, but whatever went on after that. And there was also an incident, and I can’t recall now if it was before or after, but there was an incident somehow down at the base– he went to a baseball game. He had a. I think he had a bulletproof vest on it. There was something in the paper, and I’m not sure if I think what had happened. And again, I’m not sure the timeline on this and all of this, anything extracurricular, other than what was done with the hitman, was handled by this Inspector Ngorsky and Inspector Gallagher. And this could have happened. No, it couldn’t have happened when we were in Baltimore because it was cold, but I don’t remember specifically. But there was an incident, and it was in the papers, and it had something to do with a baseball game, and I think he had people around him, and I think there might have been SWAT people there or so something. And they were. There was. They were kind of ridiculing him for the extra protection he had. So I think. Although I was never told, I think Kucinich might have caught on that there was a hit, and he just didn’t know where to turn. That’s why he might have gone to the hospital, you know? I don’t know. I don’t know. He had a very tight knit circle there at City Hall. Trusted no one. And he served one term. And towards the end of his term, he realized that the police were not his enemy. He became very, very friendly, let’s say, with the police.
Adam Raeder [00:43:24] Because you guys had to have informed him, like, as soon as you guys learned there was what you believed was a credible threat. I mean, informing Kucinich had to be one of your first steps, right?
Ed Kovacic [00:43:34] No, I don’t know that. I know that Bobby Gallagher increased. Inspector Gallagher was told to increase the security at the hospital, and I don’t know what steps were taken for his personal safety after that. And I don’t know at what point he was advised of this threat. But I do know that he was. Could have been after he got out of the hospital. And who he told, I don’t know. But all I know is that I believe the old man. I believe them to this day. I believe the threat was credible, and I believe it wasn’t for Ray Leard and the Baltimore State Police Kucinich wouldn’t be sitting in Washington today. That’s my firm belief.
Adam Raeder [00:44:40] Do you know whatever happened to the old man?
Ed Kovacic [00:44:43] No. I talked to Ray several times, and he said the old man’s still around. He’s doing good. But I haven’t talked to Ray in 20 years. Ten years, something like that.
Adam Raeder [00:44:54] And how old would you have guessed the old man was?
Ed Kovacic [00:44:59] The old man was probably in his late fifties back then. He was the old man. He had gray hair. He’s kind of a little bit heavy. Not fat, but heavy, powerful heavy, you know. And, you know, and the thing about him is he just looked like everybody else, you know.
Adam Raeder [00:45:29] Couple odds and ends. When you met with him on the airplane and showed him Tommy’s picture, where was the airplane? Was that Hopkins? Was that Burke?
Ed Kovacic [00:45:37] Burke.
Adam Raeder [00:45:38] All right. And was that just you, Ray, and the old man then?
Ed Kovacic [00:45:45] Right. And I had been given. I had a briefcase, and it had a recorder in there. And this is. This happened several times to me. We had a man in charge of taking care of our equipment. Tape recorder didn’t work.
Adam Raeder [00:46:09] Oh, man, that’d be terrible.
Ed Kovacic [00:46:12] I was. I tell you, as an aside, one time, I was posing as a. When I was in the intelligence unit, I was posing as a guy from Cook Coffee. They were being extorted. I jumped in my car. Cook Coffee car. I had my gun under my leg. And the signal was when we had, money had changed hands, that I’d start coughing. I started coughing. Nobody came. I started coughing. Nobody came. And I wound down the window, and I started coughing. Nobody came. And the guy said, what’s the matter? I said, I’m scared to death, you know. He said, you got me scared to death. I think I’m going to have a heart attack. And he had a gun, you know, and he put the gun. I waited. He put the gun in his coat pocket. He started to get out of the car, and I said. Pulled out my gun. I said, I’m a police officer. You’re under arrest. He said, I’ll give you the two hundred back. Why did I tell you that crazy story? What was my point? I don’t see how it related to this?
Adam Raeder [00:47:26] It was messed up communication.
Ed Kovacic [00:47:30] Oh, yeah. Oh, that’s right. And what had happened was we had these new batteries, and we didn’t know they had a memory. And when we tested my transmitter, it was working fine. But the batteries, which had been recharged, you know, supposedly 100%, only had about five minutes of battery life, and my transmitter went dead. I get on the plane with this guy, and the tape recorder didn’t work, didn’t go on. Press the button, you know, didn’t go on, didn’t have it hooked up. Right. So anyhow, that’s. Any more questions?
Adam Raeder [00:48:17] One more thing I think hoping you could shed light on. You know, as they’re going through the articles in the archives, they made a big deal about this bill Kucinich passed, which was attacking vending machine companies as sort of an anti crime bill. And I was hoping you could shed light on sort of the relationship between vending machines and organized crime.
Ed Kovacic [00:48:39] Absolutely. Absolutely there was. Back then, there were three organized crime figures. One of which was the head man, John Scalish, and Maishe Rockman and Frank Embrescia. And according to the FBI, they were all made members. Scalish was the don. They owned Buckeye Vending. They owned the whole vending company. So there definitely was a tie between that, between the vending machines. And that could have had something to do with it, too. You know that. I just know what the old man told me.
Adam Raeder [00:49:31] And then I asked, the last thing I got is at this time, you know, when you were assembling the photo packet, just what did you know about Tommy Sinito?
Ed Kovacic [00:49:43] Tommy. I first met Tommy. I interviewed him. There was an attempted murder of a man in Cleveland by the name of Doggett, Bob Doggett. And a man had been found floating in the Ohio River by the name of Chick Johnson. Chick Johnson. And somehow. And I don’t remember all the particulars now, but somehow, Chick Johnson had leased or rented a car from Tommy Sinito. We went down. His place was on the south, somewhere between Cleveland and Akron, as I remember. And we went down there to interview him about leasing this car to Chick Johnson. And this Chick Johnson came up to Cleveland. He shot Robert Doggett, who was a stand up, straight up guy. I mean, he was in charge of the model cities program. And he spotted some corruption there. I interviewed him. I had a tape recording. I gave it to the chief, Rademaker. And Rademaker told me that they were going to handle it at City Hall. And then Doggett got shot. It’s a long story. And I involved Danny Greene in it. And Doggett picked Greene out of a lineup, but anyhow, and Greene didn’t do it. It was this Chick Johnson and the FBI. I was kind of told that they might have had some wiretaps that led them to Chick Johnson. But because Johnson didn’t do the job properly, he was killed and dumped in the river. That’s the only time I met Sinito. When we ran a record check on him. I believe he had just one arrest. And that was for a burglary of a jewelry store on a college campus somewhere out of state. Indiana or Illinois, somewhere in that area. And that was it. And then he began to really be associated with organized crime figures, but never any criminal, you know, like loan sharking or anything else. They just. He was like, an associate. He was a pretty smart guy. He was really a smart guy. And he managed to keep a very low profile. But the intelligence unit had gathered information that he was a real player. He was becoming a real player after this shooting of Doggett. Up until then, we hadn’t even heard. Up until that shooting, we hadn’t heard of him. That was before Kucinich was mayor. That was when Perk was mayor.
Adam Raeder [00:53:21] So he was pretty low on you guys’ radar, all told, until this happened, or.
Ed Kovacic [00:53:29] Yeah, when he first got into office, I don’t think he trusted the department at all. And he surrounded himself with some very strange people, you know, I mean, not crooked. One thing I’ll say about Kucinich, I believe he is. I don’t agree with him, but he is an honest man. I really believe that Kucinich is an honest man. And I think he was honest when he was mayor, and I think he’s honest to this day. But no, he didn’t like us. And he had the Grdina sisters, and one of them was like, 20 years old or something, 21, something like that. She was a assistant safety director, and the safety director was a former police officer who was never worthy to wear that badge of a police officer, let alone a safety director. Kucinich had a way of surrounding himself with people who were not, you know, 100% interested in the welfare of the city. But the Grdina sisters were. But, boy, they were. They were on us like a wet blanket. They were questioning everything. They were going to have me arrested for polluting the lake. Serious. I’m not lying to you. They were going to have me arrested for polluting the lake.
Adam Raeder [00:55:10] For what?
Ed Kovacic [00:55:11] We had M80 firecrackers we couldn’t get rid of. And we just tried everything. And finally we said, we’re going to take them down at the foot of Burke airport. They were extending the airport. They had walled off this section out there, and they were dumping sludge in there. If people want to expand on the airport, they better check what’s under that ground before they talk about expanding so. Or doing away with it. I think people only live because the planes take off and land so quickly. Otherwise, you know, if you spend any time out there, God knows what you’re getting from what’s in that ground underneath those runways. But anyhow, you’re gonna have to get me back on track again.
Adam Raeder [00:56:04] The Grdina sisters.
Ed Kovacic [00:56:05] Oh, yeah, they were gonna. Yeah. So we had these things and we put them in a 55 gallon drum. We rolled them down the hill. It was a cold day. Rolled them down the hill into the sludge pit. It wouldn’t sink. We used to do crazy things. We got a 30–06 rifle, and we shot holes in the 55 gallon drum trying to get it to sink. It wouldn’t sink. When they found out that I had done this, they said they were going to have me arrested for polluting the lake. Seriously. They were serious. They were serious. And that’s. That’s the way they operated back then. You know, they.
Adam Raeder [00:56:54] Yeah. One of them was negotiating a new contract, like one of the Grdina sisters was part of negotiating the new contract with the Cleveland police, wasn’t she? And really ticked off a lot of people, if the news stories are correct.
Ed Kovacic [00:57:09] Oh, yes. But then later, she took. And I think it might have been after. After the Kucinich thing, but she made a point of taking me out the lunch with another gal from the safety director’s office who I knew she was married to a Cleveland disc jockey. I can’t remember which one. He was a real, you know, flaming guy. You know what I mean? He was flamboyant. That’s word I want to use. And my cousin Vic and I. Vic was in the scientific unit, too, and he was a sergeant, and they took us both out to lunch. And she was great. She was great. Like I said, they all just came around, and at the end, they were. I would say they were supporters of the police by the time he left office.
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