Abstract
Steven Bullock was born in North Carolina. He was the CEO of the Greater Cleveland Chapter of the American Red Cross. After retirement Bullock founded the Bullock Group, a management consulting company for non-profit and public institutions. This 2017 interview was collected as part of a yearlong, community-wide commemoration of the 50th anniversary of Carl Stokes' election as mayor of Cleveland.
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Interviewee
Bullock, Steve (interviewee)
Interviewer
Perry, Dee (interviewer); Hickey, Christine (participant); Taylor, Jacob (participant)
Project
Stokes: Honoring the Past, Inspiring the Future
Date
3-9-2017
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
97 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Steve Bullock interview, 09 March 2017" (2017). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 501036.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/1185
Transcript
Dee Perry [00:00:04] We are here in the Hanna Library of Western Reserve Historical Society and here for the Stokes commemoration project, I'm Dee Perry. Christine Hickey will be asking questions perhaps, and perhaps Jacob Taylor as well. And we are here to talk with Steve Bullock. S,T,E,V,E. B,U,L,L,O,C,K. Steve Bullock. And Steve, thank you for being with us.
Steve Bullock [00:00:35] Thank you. Pleasure.
Dee Perry [00:00:37] I want to start by asking about your father, William Henry Bullock, because it fascinates me that he was born in 1865 and was 72 years old when you were born. What do you know about the circumstances in which he grew up?
Steve Bullock [00:00:53] Well, first let me respond to the first part. My father said that he was born in 1865 and that's the year that I use. I have some young nephews who are researchers and they say he was born in 1867. The two years don't matter to me. So as far as I'm concerned, he was born in 1865. In terms of your question as to what I know about his early life, he was the youngest of eight children. He had seven siblings and brothers and sisters. He was the youngest and he grew up on a plantation. The plantation was owned by Bullock. My grandfather, I guess, had lived there, was a freed slave and had lived there for quite some time. So his early years were spent on a farm, as was the case for me, for that matter, as a part of this family of eight children, mother and father, they were. I'll just say this quickly. In those days, my grandfather urged his children to marry someone who was fair skinned because that would give them a better chance of success in life. That was his philosophy. And my father was the only one who didn't do that. So he was kind of, I don't want to say he was mischievous, but he didn't totally follow his father's instructions.
Dee Perry [00:02:42] You were the youngest of your father's 22 children and 14 of those he had with your mother, Ida. You mentioned living on a farm. Give us a sense of the location. Where were you and what day to day life was like?
Steve Bullock [00:02:58] I grew up in Halifax County, North Carolina. That's eastern part of the state. On different- We lived on a number of farms during my early years and during the summer, the days were from sunrise to sunset. You were working on the farm. There was some aspect of we grew cotton, peanuts and tobacco. So we would be working on the farm. And during the school year, which was a tough time if you were a sharecropper, which is what we were, we work in somebody else's property. The landowner is the person who made the money, and our job was to do the work. Usually the owner did not want anybody who was old enough to do any work to go to school. He worked on the farm, and we did that. My older siblings often dropped out of school. When they were about to enter high school or early years of high school, they would have to drop out. My mother finally said, that's not going to happen to the children. At the end, there were three of us. I had, at that time, two brothers just older than I am. His first one is Floyd, who's still alive. He's a Baptist preacher, retired, and accountant in Riverside, California. And then Morris was next to me. Morris was two years older than I was. But Morris and I graduated from high school the same year. And it's because he refused to go to school until I was ready to go with him. But we would miss spring months, the last few months of school, and we'd miss the early fall because that's harvest time and that was our activity. I notice what I've talked about does not include any leisure time. We did have sometimes late Saturday afternoon and Sunday after church to play games and whatever we could make up with the toys that we found or created to use.
Dee Perry [00:05:41] It sounds like education was something that was really important to your mother, your father as well.
Steve Bullock [00:05:50] It was important for both my father and my mother. My father was older than my mother indicated. My father was 72 when I was born. My mother was 38. So there was quite an age difference between them. So by the time I was growing up, my father was not really physically in a position to be greatly involved, but he had voice and he had voice in our family. And he. We had Bible study and prayer every Sunday morning, regardless of what else was going on. And he was one of the Southern praying deacons. If you've ever known anyone like that who can pray some really strong prayers. But education was the key to a better life. And both of them stress that. My mother spoke about it more than my father did. In fact, she would say, I want you to work hard, and I want you to be the best at whatever it is you decide that you're going to be. And then she would say, and I don't want you to be afraid of hard work. Hard work never killed anyone. Now, today, I would say, I don't agree with my mother because, in fact, I think hard work actually kills her ultimately. In her later years, she had a number of strokes and finally passed away at the age of 91, which is not bad. In terms of God gives me that many years. I'm grateful for what he's already given me, but certainly will be grateful if I live as long as my mother and my father died at the age of 93.
Dee Perry [00:07:51] Good genes. What did you observe about race relations in your area as you were growing up?
Steve Bullock [00:08:01] Yes. Well, I grew up at a time and in a place where there were clearly at least two communities separate and unequal and the community that I grew up in attended. Just to give you some examples, we attended segregated schools. And the schools in North Carolina and several other states in the south and Midwest were schools that were either built largely by the people. The state did not build schools for blacks throughout the state. Now, in my state of North Carolina, they built schools around Charlotte and some of the other counties where the populations were larger. But in Halifax county, the schools that we attended were built by were called Rosenwald schools. And I don't know if you've heard of the Rosenwald was a family associated with Sears, in fact, the Sears Roebuck Company and the CEO name was Rosenwald. And he created a foundation and one of the many things that he supported. But it is said that his. This goes back to the early 1900s when he started to do build these schools. Actually, in the 1800s, he started to build these schools. So I attended Eden Rosenwald School, elementary school through the sixth grade and then seventh grade, I went to White Oak Rosenwald School and then finally Eden, I'm sorry, in Borden High School, which was actually built by the county. So that's what I mean by separate. So we had. The schools were segregated and as I said, clearly unequal. We used. We got the books that were outdated from the white school. So I say to my white friends that I used books that came from the white schools and the textbooks in those days, there were questions in the back of the book and you'd go in the. And my white friends had put all the wrong answers in the back of the book. So we didn't use any of their questions. So education was clearly segregated. And then one of the other things that I just mentioned because this was important to us, was voting rights. My father died never being able to vote. And the reason he was not able to vote was because in that part of the world, the United States, you were required to first pay a fee and then you had to take what was called a literacy test. And the test could be. Read that paragraph and answer it to my satisfaction. Well, you never reached whatever that satisfaction was or tell me how many marvels in that jar, silly questions to which, and this did not hit me as to being racist. I was concerned that my father really didn't know the answers. And then one day, the principal of my high school, this is now in the 50s, early 50s, failed to pass the literacy test. And I said, something is wrong with this picture. So we all started from that time working hard on voter rights. And I did that throughout college. I'm sorry, go ahead. But the other things that were quite visible, you know, you had. If you went to a restaurant, you. You didn't go in the front door. If you would buy something to take out, you bought it from a side door. And water fountains were separate. So that was the culture. And there were other more dangerous activities. You didn't walk on the road, especially at night, because somebody just might run over you. My mother actually was hit by some teenagers driving. It was just beginning to be dark, get dark. Before she got home, she had a packet under her arm. It actually knocked the packets out from under her arm, but she was fine. But that's it, sort of. It tells you what it was like. This is- We hadn't made a lot of progress at that time in terms of race relations.
Christine Hickey [00:13:24] Give us one second. What was wrong with that?
Jacob Taylor [00:13:26] We just had to get one thing correct. This cable- [brief crosstalk regarding technical issue] Dee Perry [00:13:49] You mentioned a few moments ago that the era you were talking about was in the '50s. Had the Civil Rights movement made any impact in your region of North Carolina before you went off to college?
Steve Bullock [00:14:04] Not a lot. Not a whole lot. As I said, we were aware and attempting to take some steps in terms of voter registration, but there was not a lot. I graduated from high school in 1955, and things started to change after that. During my years in college and then even after I graduated from college in 1959, the schools had been integrated, for example, schools were integrated. I'm going to say '55, about '57. Before I graduated from high school, my nieces and nephews that I left behind actually went to their last few years of high school and integrated schools. And I need to quickly add, because of my age at the end of that, 14 children my mother had. I had nieces and nephews who were my age. I actually, a niece graduated with Morris and me the same year from the same. We were all in the same class, 1955.
Dee Perry [00:15:30] College was Virginia Union University. How did you manage to get to college? Because I'm thinking money was probably not in great supply.
Steve Bullock [00:15:42] And you are absolutely correct. The first place, by the time I knew that I had to go to college, I knew that I had to find a way to make it happen. And I'd like to take just a few minutes to give you something which is a little different than what you would expect somebody like me to find. Inspiration. But my mother worked as a- She actually got an LPN certificate, and she worked for people and families in the little town of Enfield, which is in Halifax County, which is where we lived. Always somewhere around Enfield, if not Enfield. She would bring home lots of things from these. Sometimes clothes, other things that she thought had. And the people that she worked for thought had some value. But one of the things she brought was magazines, and she brought Life magazine. And I read it, and I learned about the Vanderbilt family. Now I'm growing up in Enfield, Halifax County, North Carolina, which is on the east coast. And the Vanderbilts lived in Asheville and anywhere else they wanted to live. But I would read about them and ask the question, how is it that I have to get up every day with nothing and work hard all day, and these people are living the life? And I finally decided, okay, I'm not going to be jealous about them. They got there, they're there, and God blessed them. But somewhere between where I am and where they are, God must have intended for me. And that started with that. I had to find a way to prepare myself to improve my situation. And my mother kept saying, you got to go to school, you gotta go to college. And they said it so much that I thought, okay, we had conversations about why go to college. You prepare yourself to add value, to be more valuable for yourself and for the communities where you live. So I figured, okay, I'm ready. Here I am. Send me, send me. So I never thought about what it would cost to go to college or that it would cost. I know I had to get to high school in order to learn, and I had to find a way to buy my own clothes of my parents, buy my own clothes and so forth. But when I walked on the campus of Virginia Union, I had never. I was probably the most naive person ever to go to college. I had never walked on a campus before. But I got it. I applied. And I applied because a lady, one of my teachers, Willie Mae Johnson, who taught English, and she was my class advisor. In fact, she Gave me the names of the schools that I should apply, and Virginia Union was one of them, and I was accepted. They gave me a little scholarship. It only cost $800 a semester, but I didn't have $8. So I worked that summer at Virginia beach. And that's another whole story. It was the summer of 1955, the summer that Emmett Till was brutally murdered. And my friend and I were having. We were not murdered. We were not even physically attacked, but we certainly could have been and often had to take actions to make sure that we were not. So in Virginia beach, blacks were not allowed on the beach or on the boardwalk. But I made enough money to buy clothes and to get to Virginia Union for the first semester. The scholarship helped me with what I had, and the scholarship got me through the first semester. And all of a sudden, I'm still going to class and doing things, and the dean calls me. And the dean was Dr. Thomas Henderson, and Dr. Samuel DeWitt Proctor was the president of the school at that time. I was called into the dean's office, and he said, Stevie, when are you going to pay your bill? I said, do my what? What do you mean, pay my bill? People have been telling me I got to go to college, and here I am. So now you're telling me I got to pay. And so this goes back to how naive I was even after being there. So I spent time in Sam Proctor's office, and then he sent me back to the dean, and he sent me back to the president. And they finally said, okay, you don't have any money, but we're going to keep you. And I said, okay, here's what you have to do. So this is. Now I'm going into the second semester of my freshman year. I was afforded the opportunity to take two jobs. One on campus, which I worked for three and a half years, and one off campus, which I worked at night. And I said to the dean, I can't take the night job because I won't sing in the choir. The choir was going to go to Europe and travel was one of the other things that I wanted to get an education. I wanted to figure out what's going on in the world around me. So he said, okay, you want to sing in the choir. The only problem is, in order to sing in the choir, you have to be a student here. And if you don't pay your bill, you're not going to be a student. And we're providing you with an opportunity to pay your bill. And it hit me that, okay, I get It. So I took the job. I did not sing in the choir. Later on I built up enough so that I could do some other things. So I got involved in other activities. I actually was very involved with the student government. I was the chief justice on the campus my junior and senior year. And you had to campaign and run and be elected to serve, serve in those kind of positions, like president of student government. So it happened because some people said, we're going to give you a chance. And I took that chance and I'm happy about it. I thank Dr. Sam Proctor for being at Virginia Union. Thank God for sending him there. I jokingly say to people that I think God sent him there for me and we met there. He became president the year before I arrived and he left the year after I left and went to North Carolina A and T as the president there.
Dee Perry [00:23:40] And while we're talking about Dr. Proctor, you got a chance to travel with him as an undergrad when he'd go on fundraising trips to university. What did you observe on those trips that you might have learned lessons from?
Steve Bullock [00:23:57] Oh, I learned a lot. And we could spend the rest of the next two hours talking about what I learned from Sam Proctor, probably. But I'm going to share something with you that I remember. There are some things that really hit me hard in my life. One happened when I was at that Eden Rosenwald School. And I'd like to share that with you at some point. But Sam Proctor would take. I was not the only student that he took on these trips, but he took me when he went to the eastern part of North Carolina. People would know about Enfield and so forth. So we would. And he'd make his pitch to whatever group was gathered at a church or school. And sometimes he'd actually get money right there. And I learned a lot from that. Just how he presented himself and how he convinced people what he was doing and what Virginia Union was doing. It was valuable for more than Steve Bullock and Sam Proctor. But the other thing, very simple thing that I still use in life, is we would drive in his car and when we came back, by the way, if we left early enough, we'd stop and get ice cream and eat ice cream, drive him back. But he would say, I want you to pay attention to what I'm doing. We're driving on this two lane road and there were this 301. I don't know if you know much about the roads. Route 1 goes from Maine to Florida. 301 is similar. So these are busy, busy roads. And he would Say, I am not looking just in front of this car. I'm paying attention to what's ahead of me and what is or what might get in my way to slow me down. And my goal is to make sure that I don't allow anything to stop me or to slow me down. And he said, you have to apply that to life, and I'll never forget it. And I do apply it to life. I call it looking around corners. You have to pay attention and be able to. To look around corners and over hills so that nobody can see over hills. But using your experience and paying attention to what else is going for a lot of. In case of the traffic, there are a lot of trucks that often happen. You got to figure out how you're going to navigate through that traffic and get to your goal or destination in this case. But he was talking with me about life goals, get to your goal on time or in the way that you want to get there. So I took that away from my time at Virginia Union. He actually. Virginia Union, period. And this is true of. I know we're not here to talk about Historically Black Colleges, but it's an important subject for me, which is the reason today I am on the board of my alma mater and I also chair the United Negro College Fund here in Northern Ohio, is you learn more than academics and athletics. You learn how to navigate your way through life. And that's what Dr. Proctor was doing.
Dee Perry [00:28:00] When you finished college, you were drafted into the Army. At that point, it had been desegregated by an executive order for maybe 10, 11 years. But I'm wondering what your experience was when you got into the Army.
Steve Bullock [00:28:21] Yeah. Let me say something about the draft first, because I could have gone on to graduate school. Dr. Proctor helped me with that, but I did not want to do what he was suggesting that I do. That was one time I did not take his advice. He wanted me to go to Atlanta University and get a master's degree in social work. And I was more interested. I wanted to work in human services, but I wanted to prepare myself to be in the business aspect of the leader of the organization, which he had also stressed that I consider. So I. I decided that instead of enrolling in school, I took a job in Washington, D.C. knowing that I was going to be drafted. And it came real soon, in November of 19. I graduated in May 1959 and was drafted in November of 1959. In terms of the integrated military, I'll tell you this, I'll just share the experience of the first day we had to report to the county seat, which is the little community city was Halifax, Halifax County. And the city of Halifax is where we had to report. So I reported there. And there were, I'm going to say, maybe 15 of us, and it was almost evenly split, Black and white. We did what we had to do there in order to sign up at this county seat. And then we were separated and I was put in charge of the Blacks and another guy was put in charge of the whites. We got on a bus and went to Raleigh, North Carolina, which is the capital of the state. And that's where we were sworn in and took the oath. And I continued as the head of the Black group. And I was given a voucher to take there. We boarded a train. I was to get them on the train, and I had a voucher to buy food and the other guy had same for the white troops, white inductees. So we took the train to Columbia, South Carolina, then got on another bus. Well, we stopped in Raleigh before we got on the bus. We went to this place to eat, and of course we got to go to separate doors. And then we. So we go to Columbus, to Columbia, South Carolina, get on the bus, and we're to Fort Jackson, which is where we got our basic training. When we got off the bus at Fort Jackson, all of a sudden, sudden we were one. We had been separate from Halifax through Raleigh to Columbia, and we had to eat separate. But when we got to Fort Jackson, we were one group. We all ate at the same time, picnic table type, style table. And that was my experience throughout the time in the military. There were some people who were not happy. I'm sure that we were there, but there were individuals. The institution had changed, and it changed maybe by force in some cases. I do know that there was one branch of the service that was slow getting on board, and I think it was the Navy. But I was in the army. And so the rest of my time in the military was spent in an integrated society. When I was discharged in February 1962, now this is later than you think, and things were better, but I come back to civilian society and I'm facing the same, same thing. I left, but I did not experience that in the military.
Dee Perry [00:32:48] The Civil Rights movement was heating up in those early '60s to mid-'60s times. What were your thoughts and feelings about what was going on with the movement?
Steve Bullock [00:33:01] Well, I was encouraged. Now I was discharged from the military in February of 1962, and I went to work for the American Red Cross in March one month later. And I don't regret having made that decision. But the organizations here, I'm still dealing with more racism, including in the Red Cross. In the Red Cross at that time, African Americans were only for the most part, people in maintenance. The professionals were all in something called service to the armed forces. So my work, I think you may know this, spent on military. Again on military installations serving as the Red Cross field director. And it was not all in the United States. I started my time with the Red Cross at Fort Belvoir, Virginia, and went from there to Fort Monmouth, New Jersey, and from there to Europe for three years. That I would not do again. And the reason I would not agree to spend three years out of the country, you don't come back to the same place, you know, it was positive because when, after spending three years in France and Germany is where we were. But I had my wife and our oldest son who were with me. They joined me after about three months, I guess. But when we came back, things had changed. Before I left, we were not. We would have conferences in Virginia and the African American staff could not go to those conferences because we couldn't stay in the hotels. So the conferences for Blacks were held in New York or New Jersey, someplace where we could stay in the hotels. When I came back, that had all changed. I remember my first experience, which caused me to. There were a lot of things that I realized that we had missed, even keeping up with social activities. The music had changed and dances, you know, we were young dancers those days and we didn't know the dances. These are not necessarily important, important things. But I would not want to stay out of the country for a three year period. But I walked into this department store and this lady said, may I help you, sir? And I didn't even look because I'm sure she wasn't speaking to me because she said it again. I said, oh my goodness, this is wonderful. Before I left, the attention I got was somebody would be following me around to see, make sure I'm. I'm not doing something that I shouldn't be doing. So it was much of what we. The differences that we experienced when we came back were very positive.
Dee Perry [00:36:24] Tell me about those early days with the Red Cross. What were your duties as a-
Steve Bullock [00:36:31] Okay. My title was at the beginning, assistant field director. And then I became a field director. And our work was to spend time. We were actually assigned, as I said, to a military installation. And I mentioned Fort Belvoir and Fort Monmouth and then overseas. There were military installations overseas and the duties were a little different. Overseas. But our role was to serve as a connector or provide, make sure the relationship between the service person and the family. And it was largely the family that we were not concerned with anyone beyond the immediate family of the service person. In times of illness or some family problems, we would communicate that through the local Red Cross, say, here in Cleveland, would send the message to me at Fort Monmouth or to Pommern, Germany, wherever it was, and explain there's an issue with the family that the service person needs to know about. And we would spend time counseling with the person. It could be if the person is married and his family is back in the States, there could be a problem with the wife having financial problems, having the children ill children. And also some pleasant things, too, like sometimes a child will be born while the serviceman is overseas and his wife, family back in the States. So we helped to connect them and keep them connected. So I spent my time in the early years doing counseling with family members or the service person. And when I became the field director, then I had several staff who worked for me doing that work. And I provided the administrative work, which is what I wanted to do. And I wanted to get to the level where I could be involved in helping to create policy and administrative practices as well. And that eventually happened, but it didn't happen until I was able to get out of service at military installations.
Dee Perry [00:39:15] So you're moving up the ladder in the Red Cross, and at a time when America is full of change and turmoil. I'm curious because I've talked to other people who were in various parts of the world in 1967 when Carl Stokes was elected mayor in Cleveland. And they've told me that they, they heard about it, read about it, saw it, wherever they were. What about you?
Steve Bullock [00:39:48] Yes, absolutely. In 1967, I was either back at Fort Belvoir in Virginia or in Vietnam. I went to Vietnam in October. I'm sorry, in November of 1966. And I was there for 11 months. I came back in October of 1968. But I remember when Carl Stokes was elected and there had been. There was after another person whose name I'm not remembering right now, elected in Indiana, in smaller communities. So Carl Stokes was the first major mayor of a major city. And it was powerful news for me and for most people who were working hard to try to navigate through all of the stuff that we were having to deal with in those days, this was, for me, very encouraging. And the fact that he. I knew nothing about the. I shouldn't say nothing. What I read, I was still reading everything I could get my hands on to try to keep up. Going back to those days of reading Life magazine, it was another way, in a positive way. Unlike. Although the Vanderbilt thing was positive for me, it was seeing something that initially was negative for me, that somebody else was living such a great life. But this was a very encouraging time for me. And particularly because I'm still. Although I'm. Well, I spent 11 months in Vietnam, again out of the country. But my work with the Red Cross did not allow me to be as involved as I would like to have been some of that time. Until I got into an executive position, more executive position to be involved in community, local, community activities. So I will tell you that I thank you as many folks who did what they did, including Martin Luther King. As a student, he visited the campus of Virginia, and I did get to know him. But then I graduated and I went on to the Red Cross and went to the army, which took me out of position to be engaged as much as I would have been if I had been doing something else. And then the Red Cross took me. Took me out as well. So I say thank you to people who were on the front line. But I learned along the way, and I will tell you where with the Red Cross, I was in Atlanta, Georgia. By this time, I have some control over my own time. I remember working hard and Andrew Young's campaign in Atlanta. But I also got to know a man by the name of Clarence Coleman. He was the regional director of the Urban League and later became the dean of the School of Social Work that Sam Proctor tried to send me to. But he said to me when I first met him, when I first got to Atlanta, and he said, if you need somebody to talk to, come see me. And I did that often. But he said one day I said, I've had it. I can't fix this organization. And I wanted to go do something else. And I had actually applied for a position at General Motors in the Human Resources Department. Not something I wanted to do, but I. I was starting to get really down in my mind, everyday spirit and so forth. But anyway, he said something to me that changed all of that. And it was, why? Are you running from something or are you running to something? And I said, I guess I really am running from something. He said, well, my advice is not. Not, don't do that. Stay where you are and make the change that you can make there and let that be your contribution. So I did. I stayed with the Red Cross until I was ready to retire. And I Do think with some other, working with some other people, we made a difference within. So my civil rights activities were more within the Red Cross than it was outside the community.
Dee Perry [00:45:07] And I want to have you expand on that a little bit. What were the changes that you wanted to see happen?
Steve Bullock [00:45:15] Starting with why isn't the American Red Cross at least open to hiring Blacks and other minorities in the Red Cross, not just in service to armed forces of the Red Cross? A lady whose name I'm not going to remember now. She's the wife of a lawyer and she was a nurse with a Master's Degree. I'm sorry, a social worker with a Master's Degree was here in Cleveland when I came, and she told me she applied for a position at the Cleveland Red Cross when she came. This would have been in the 60s, somewhere along the way. And they told her there are two areas. She could be the elevator operator or she could work in the maintenance department. And that was not acceptable to me. So what Clarence Coleman said to me is, you stay there and you get into those positions and help others to follow. And that has happened. There had not been anyone who had been the executive director or the chief executive of a local Red Cross chapter during those days. When I came here to Cleveland in 1982, that was a first. In a major city. There had been someone in a small town in New Jersey which was, well, I don't need to be negative about other communities, but it was not a place that I would be looking to try to go, to be pioneering or trailblazing. But I don't know what the numbers are now today. But I saw that change in the Red Cross, and the Red Cross began to embrace me as someone who could help to make that change. And helping to make the change was simply getting people to make. Make up their minds that the Red Cross needed to change its policies. And that's why I wanted to get to that level, to try to help to have an impact on policies of the Red Cross and then help with practices after we agree that we need to change the policies.
Dee Perry [00:48:04] I want to get a sense of when you came to Cleveland, how it struck you, what were your impressions of the city?
Steve Bullock [00:48:15] Well, this is interesting too, because I was in St. Paul. Let me back up a little bit. So my first chief executive position was in St. Paul. I was the head of the St. Paul Area Red Cross and the Minnesota, Wisconsin division of the Red Cross. And that was great. Minnesota did welcome us there and my family. And although we lived West St. Paul, which had a population of 70,000 and the 1980 census reported there was 17 Blacks and five of them were in my house in West St. Paul. Our daughter, our youngest was the only black student in her elementary school. But it was fine. That was, that was all fine. So coming when I was ready to come here, I came interviewed for the position and I was accepted. So I had a good relationship with the mayor of St. Paul. His name was George Latimer. At the time he was the mayor and he was a friend of George Voinovich in Cleveland. He was a Democrat and George Voinovich was a Republican. But anyway, he said, well, I don't know why you want to go to Cleveland. I don't know why you want to leave here. And a lot of people said that to me, why are you going to Cleveland? Do you know the river burned in Cleveland? I ended that conversation with everyone by saying, everybody's got some challenges and Cleveland has its challenges. Maybe I can go and add some value in my little space and hopefully others will do the same. And it has changed. That'll all change. I've been here now 32 years, 34 years. I think my math is, may be a little bit off, but anyway. But I've seen a lot of changes and I've been proud of Cleveland since I came here. I actually got. After spending some time with Lou Stokes and others in this community, in addition to having a full time job at the Red Cross, I got myself involved in a lot of activities. I actually chaired a committee called the New Cleveland Campaign for a short period. And what I learned in talking to people and moving around the city is that we Clevelanders probably spread more bad news about Cleveland than people who didn't live in Cleveland. And the purpose of this campaign was to try to make get us to a position where we would be more positive about what's going on and to work to improve in those areas where we needed to improve. A lot of changes this came was sort of associated with the Growth Association, which is now The Partnership. But the- So people had negative things to say and wondered if I had lost my way and if I needed some guidance, maybe go somewhere. I even got calls from people in Atlanta. Why are you going to Cleveland? I'm going to Cleveland because I have an opportunity to do something different and I think have a greater expand my reach than beyond what I've been able to do so far. And I have absolutely no regret. In fact, I'm happy to be here. We're not going to stay here much longer because my wife and I are getting older and we need warm climate, need a warm climate. I tell people that I came from Minnesota to Cleveland looking for a warmer climate and I didn't find it. So we're going to. Going to go on maybe further south and a few. My wife would like to go tomorrow, but maybe in a couple of years we'll move.
Dee Perry [00:53:05] You mentioned Lou Stokes briefly, and I wanted to circle back to that because I'm curious about when your first encounter with him was. What were the circumstances and what were your impressions of him?
Steve Bullock [00:53:18] Well, the circumstances were kind of interesting because one of the- After my conversation with George Latimer in St. Paul, I made a list of the people together with George Latimer. And then when I got here, just looking around and talking to people on my board, a list of people that I needed to reach out to. And I actually was in the process of scheduling a meeting with Lou Sokes in his office in Washington. I did go to Washington to meet the representatives from Ohio several times early in my time here. But he called me before I actually got an appointment to, to meet him, just to say welcome. And I knew who he was and I knew, maybe I'm going to say the cloth of which he had been cut, I think the whole family just reading the stories about them and public housing and then reaching the levels that they reached. So I knew about him. But anyway, he actually called me and I did still follow through with my visit to Washington to meet with him formally and officially. But I guess I began to see him immediately. He offered his support and he left it very broad. Anything that I can do to be helpful or help you to be successful at the Red Cross in our community, let me know. And I agreed to do that. There were times when we would talk with him about various legislation and that kind of thing, but the power or the value that he brought to me was. Was one of just personal guidance in terms of introducing me to. And he didn't just introduce me to Black people, he introduced me, identified and introduced me to people, the leaders of the community and even the state. I mean, he'd tell me about folks in Columbus and even Cincinnati. And there were others here too, that I spoke with. Otis Moss, who's quite knowledgeable about what is going on. Carl Hoover was the person that he pointed me to. Stokes. So his. Over the time, until the last time I saw him, which was sometime after Obama was here and we were at a function that was the first time, last time I saw him, to have a chance to talk with him, It was all about how Are things going and can I help you every time? And he was so different. There were a lot of good people. There are a lot of good people, and there were a lot of good people here when I came here. But not everybody reached out like Lou Stokes did. And he didn't have to reach out when we were standing face to face. And he's just saying, I'm here to do whatever. I can just remember that there was another person who would say that to me. I never got. I don't know if you know, Judge Coleman, who is now deceased. Towards the end of his life, he had some problems with his back, and he walked really bent over. He and I never had any lengthy conversations, but I would see him at social events and he would say, all right, I'm happy you were at the Red Cross. I'm paying attention. Keep on doing what you're doing. And that was. I said, fine. I don't know if. If he really knows what I'm doing or not, but at least he's telling me that he's trying to encourage me. But Lou Stokes sessions were one on one. And I think, as I said earlier, some of those years when I was back and forth Washington, I would get a chance to ride back with him from Washington on the same plane, and we would talk about what's going on and how he could help. You ask what kind of person I'm going to say that. And I don't want to be negative about anybody, have this statement come across as being negative about anybody. But there are politicians and there are public servants, and Lou Stokes was a public servant. It was service over status. He was there to serve, and he did so I just set him apart from some other politicians. I like to think of him because he was a public servant.
Dee Perry [00:59:08] One of the goals that you had with the Red Cross was a more inclusive and diverse board. Was Louis Stokes help in-
Steve Bullock [00:59:20] He was helpful with that. That's how I got to know Ed Winter Moss, actually, through Otis Moss. But I actually made a list and having conversations with him. And Ed Winter was one of the people I put on my list. And she came and she served on our board the whole time I was there in some capacity. She was actually our chair of volunteers, which is a very critical position in every Red Cross chapter, including as a chair of volunteers at the national headquarters. So there were a number of people that he helped with. But I want to stress that he didn't just focus on black people. Lou Stokes didn't. He would point to others that I should try to get to know and develop, cultivate some kind of a relationship with which was important. I mean, I needed, or we needed, I should say, the whole community, or at least representation from the whole community at the Red Cross. And I spent- I don't know if you're aware of this, but I spent at some point actually working at the national level attempting to do the same thing. It was called- The area that I was in was called Serving And Involving The Entire Community. We had this beautiful- SAITEC, it was called. And what that meant was the Red Cross had committed itself to trying to involve the total community and its work and in the service that were provided. There were times when I first joined the Red Cross if there was a disaster, and it didn't just happen in the South, it happened in Pennsylvania, other places where flooding, some disaster occurred. And the Red Cross only served on one side of the railroad track, not the other side. And speaking of Cleveland, when I was in Vietnam, when Martin Luther. Martin Luther King was murdered, and when the riots occurred and there were riots here in Cleveland, but there were riots in other, smaller communities. Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, for example, I went to. When I got back, I was on assignment in Pennsylvania. I went to. To meet with the local Red Cross executive. And she said, well, we don't go over there. Those people ride it over there. So we don't go on that. We don't provide any service for them. So we worked hard at changing all of that and made some progress in changing that.
Dee Perry [01:02:50] I'm wondering - because you had in common with the Stokes brothers a mother who stressed the importance of education - I'm wondering what you said to your children and other people's children about the impact it can have?
Steve Bullock [01:03:07] Yes. Yeah. Well, I- I Talk about preparation for what it is you're trying to accomplish in life. And education is a part of that preparation. And I say a part. It is a major part of that, part of that piece of what I think everybody needs to do. Find a way to make a decision what it is you're trying to accomplish, and make sure you figure out what you need to do to prepare yourself in order to accomplish what it is you're trying to accomplish. So we had that conversation often similar conversation. I've never said hard work never killed anybody. But what I do say, it's interesting. I just had this conversation at a meeting a couple of Saturdays ago with some adults that if you work hard enough in your studies, you do well. Now you got to have the time, but you got to put the time in. So I go back to when I was in college and having to work at night and then come home, come to my room and study at night. But it paid off every time if I decided, okay, I'm not going to go to sleep right now until I figure out what this problem is that I don't understand yet. So hard work. As a student, we had standards for our children, and it was pretty basic. But in the major subjects that prepare you for life, like being able to read, being able to write, being able to speak, being able to count, you have to do well, and there's no maybe. You have to do well so that you can make progress through life. And I had an interesting experience which I quickly share with you. Our daughter is our youngest child. We have two sons and a daughter. Our daughter now has a doctorate in education, but she was a 9th grader in high school, and she made a C in English. And, okay, you can't make a C in English. Physics, maybe, but you can't make a C in English. So, Kelly, what is the problem? What do you think? I don't know, Dad. I don't know. So I went to the school and met with the. The English teacher, who happened to also be a homeroom teacher, sat through the class, and then I talked with him and he laughed and he said, oh, not everybody's an A student. And I said, okay, you don't have to say anymore. I know what the problem is. It's you and your expectations of her are not the same as mine. But she's going to work to achieve what we and she expect of her. Not the sea is okay, which is your expectations. And I left that meeting, went to meet with the superintendent, and his response was, I need you to help me with people like that, so you need to come serve on the school board. Which I did later on. But it was. So I guess I would say that it was the expectations that we had for our children. And then we went to school with them, and all three of our kids went through public schools. We could have switched and gone to private schools. I'm not sure how much difference there would have been. I just. We figured that we would go to school with them and what I mean by that, we were present. I didn't go and sit in class with them. Oh, that day I did. When I wanted to figure out why she was getting Cs in English. And we have a lot of children, my wife and I, and a lot of them. I say a lot of children. We have three children, but all their friends call us mom and dad as well, and I'm sure there are other parents that do the same. But we try to instill without trying to raise somebody else's children, but just try to encourage them to do the best that they can and to get an education.
Dee Perry [01:08:31] What do you think young people, really any people, can take in terms of lessons about leadership from the Stokes brothers example?
Steve Bullock [01:08:42] Oh. Well, I think another thing that I talk about when I'm doing my coaching is leaders. People need to try to pay attention and know when it's time to lead now. So how do you do that? And I think the Stokes brothers knew that, knew how to figure that out. And it probably came about as a result of their early years and understanding that somebody needed to take steps to make some changes in some. In the human condition, put it that way, I think was what they focused on, especially Lou Stokes. I think both of them. But my watching Lou Stokes, his focus was the human condition and somebody needed to do to try to effect change. And he saw it as part of his purpose. So what I hope that they will learn is that what I had relearned and reaffirmed for me was that you need to understand what your purpose is and what your purpose is something, one that you have some passion about. I mean, that comes from somewhere. And I think God touches us and helps us to know when we're doing his purpose. Actually he's doing this work through us. So I hope they would figure out how to understand what their purpose is and then do what the Stokes brothers did and prepare themselves to do something about it. So it's identification and preparation and then performance. You have to step up and lead and it can lead in many ways. People were critical of our former President Obama about leading from behind. You actually can lead from behind. And there are times when it's probably important to lead from behind, but it's knowing that it's time for you to use what God's given you to make a difference. And I hope they see that in the lives of Carl and Lou Stokes. I think it was demonstrated over and over again. For me it was anyway over and over again. And they. Sometimes I'm going to say this and then I'm going to correct myself. Sometimes you would think they almost created the opportunity, but I think God created the opportunity and they used God's gifts to step in and do something positive as much as they could do positive.
Dee Perry [01:12:29] I have some other questions, but I want to stop for a moment and see if there's anything that Christine or Jacob wants to-
Christine Hickey [01:12:36] Yeah, I wanted to go back to- I know we touched on it briefly. Do you have about 15? I believe when we spoke on the phone, Mr. Bullock, that you had mentioned that you had heard about Carl and Arnold Pinkney and different things like that. And so I want to go back to that point. So 15 and 16 and then Louis moved to Congress. So I wanted to know what your thoughts are on that.
Steve Bullock [01:13:05] What I'd heard?
Christine Hickey [01:13:08] So if- Dee, do you just want to ask 15 and 16, that would help.
Dee Perry [01:13:12] Okay. The question was about what you heard about the election of Carl Stokes and Arnold Pinkney's role in that election as well.
Steve Bullock [01:13:28] Yeah. Now, I, as I said, the election occurred in November of 1967. Right? That is the year that I left to go to Vietnam. So I was in Vietnam and listening to AFN, Armed Forces Network TV and radio and reading the army newspaper and other newspapers as well. But anyway, so I knew about Carl Stokes election. I did not know about Pinkney until later. And I was back in Washington and I can't even remember what it was that caused me to focus on Arnold Pinkney, but I actually would read, see him quoted or his name in some of the articles that I was reading. But I also, and I'm not going to remember who it was someone I met, someone who told me the story of Arnold Pinkney and told me about him being a baseball player. He was a baseball player, wanted to be a baseball player, but actually I guess played for some time. And then he became this very successful political advisor somewhere along the way and ended up in Carl Stokes' campaign. So, I knew some of Arnold Pinkney's life, but did not get that, did not initially connect that to Carl Stokes election. I began to pay attention to Carl Stokes after his time as mayor and then paid attention to him when he was a judge, but again had no Lou Stokes Stokes, but had no direct contact with him. When I came to Cleveland, I made myself known to Arnold Pinkney. Arnold and Betty Pinkney and spent a lot of time with them, working with them. He was another person who. I told him I wasn't running for anything. I did. Eventually I ran for the school board and for city council, but I didn't hire him to manage my campaign. But I. But I did talk with him about it, like I did with Lou Stokes, managing me or helping me as the head of the Red Cross. And Betty Pinkney, the same is true of her. She and I ended up serving on a number of boards together, especially the University Hospital's boards. At one point I was on both the hospital board and the association board as well. She chaired the diversity committee and I served on that with her at University Hospitals. So then we just knew the Pinkney's until he passed away. And I still see Betty now and then.
Dee Perry [01:17:24] And I wanted to circle back to that late '60s period because I forgot that, besides Carl Stokes' groundbreaking win, Lou Stokes, as the first Black congressman from Ohio, was a groundbreaker too. What did you hear or learn about that election even out of the country?
Steve Bullock [01:17:50] I don't know much details about the campaign. I just know that he was elected. And this is another bright time for me, especially being away. You know, things. Things are going on that are good or positive. People are making strides and I'm happy about that. You know, They weren't the only people, but both Carl Stokes and Carl and Lou. And I keep stressing that my relationship was really strong, much stronger. Because for whatever reasons, time coming here, I guess, I don't know. I'm not sure what probably my time of arrival was with Lou Stokes, but- When you're fighting a battle, and I hate to say that, maybe I shouldn't say it, and I don't hate either, maybe I shouldn't say it that way. When you are sort of struggling with trying to achieve your own, the goals that you have set for yourself and mine were focused on the inner circle. I made the decision that I'm going to get in the circle of the Red Cross and I'm going to change it. And when you see somebody else being successful, it gives you hope. And this happened for me twice from the same family. And then of course with Lou, it was more than twice the fact that he was elected. But then when I began to actually have a personal relationship with him, he was a source of inspiration and hope for me by the life that he lived and the successes that he had even as a Congress. I mean, his work in the Congress, not just getting elected, but when he got elected, got there, he did something and made a difference. And that's what I was trying to do in the Red Cross.
Dee Perry [01:20:20] Yeah, okay.
Christine Hickey [01:20:22] No, yeah, that was good then.
Dee Perry [01:20:23] Then I just have a few more. What would you say- It was important, I think they demonstrated, both Carl and Lou, that it was important to them to leave a path for younger generations. What would you say to them about how they can effect change in today's world?
Steve Bullock [01:20:50] Well, I'll go back and use my formula. First, determine what it is you're trying to accomplish. What is your purpose? My purpose broadly was to improve the human condition, starting for myself and my family and get me off that farm picking cotton and priming tobacco. I don't remember if that means taking the leaves off of tobacco stalk, shaking peanuts. Those were the three things that we did find that place that God had for me between where the Vanderbilts lived and where I was living. And then prepare yourself to make a difference and understand what the preparation is. And once you're prepared and you get there, you have to perform. And the way I look at that is what is the value? What value am I able to bring to whatever the situation is? So know that. Don't take a position or agree to serve on a committee or a board if you, if you don't, if you're not going to try to take, bring with you some value to whatever it is that work is all about. So it's know your purpose, prepare and then perform and then evaluate what it is so that you can, you can further improve yourself. And you know the. We all have blind spots. So no matter how much you prepare or no matter how many terminal degrees you have or technical degrees you have, we all have blind spots. And I say therefore, we all have some level of ignorance. And that's not bad. We can't know everything. So you got. We all are ignorant about something, but smart people are the people who know that they are ignorant. That may sound confusing, but if you're smart, you know where you're ignorant and one or two things you can do about it. One is try to be smart about it if you can. If it's not an area that you're prepared to, maybe if it's too technical, that somebody, then the purpose is to surround yourself with someone who knows what you do not know. So that's what I mean. Smart people know they're ignorant and they find somebody to fill that gap to help them, which then makes them smart about everything if you surround yourself with enough people. So I, I think also perseverance is important. You got to stay the course. Martin Luther King talked about keeping your eye on a prize, and I don't want to demean what he meant, but whatever your goal is should be your prize. And you want to keep your eye on the prize and don't allow someone to distract you. And the last thing I guess is to know that. And I'm not Otis Moss or somebody who's trained, very well trained faith leader. But I do know that God gave us all gifts and our gifts may be different, but what he expects of us is to grow those gifts and share them and use them. That's what Carl and Lou Stokes did. They. They used their gifts and they shared them with others. They worked to grow those gifts. You know, the five and the three and the one talents. The story of that, the person with five talents used them, three used them. The person with one buried it and he was given one talent and that's what he ended up with, one talent. That's not what God expects. We should try to grow the gifts and share them. The gifts that he's given us and share them. And he's given us all many gifts. Some may not be as shiny as somebody else's gifts. You know, it doesn't blind you when you look at it. Something. But we all have gifts and we should use them. That's my advice to everyone, actually, but certainly to young people.
Dee Perry [01:26:37] And you certainly use them in a lot of different ways beyond the Red Cross leadership, Cleveland, working with the Cleveland Foundation, leading your own company. But I wanted to make sure I leave room in case there's something I haven't touched on that you really want to share a message about. Yeah.
Christine Hickey [01:26:58] And when you do that, just put your folder down.
Steve Bullock [01:27:01] Oh, I'm sorry. [laughs] I didn't even notice things.
Christine Hickey [01:27:03] That's okay.
Steve Bullock [01:27:04] But-
Christine Hickey [01:27:04] Yeah, but look at your notes.
Steve Bullock [01:27:07] Well, no, I saw what I was looking for. I apologize for that. Oh, no, it's okay. I didn't mean to change clothes while I was sitting here, so. Okay, refresh.
Dee Perry [01:27:23] We've covered a lot of subjects, but I've missed some and I wanted to make sure there was, if there was something that you really wanted to get into the conversation.
Steve Bullock [01:27:34] Well, I would say this. One of the other things going back to what my advice would be to young people who want to achieve as the Stokes brothers did, is I think relationships are critical for everyone, but especially for leaders. And that is we need to determine strategically. I don't mean to be exclusive, but strategically, we need to determine.
Dee Perry [01:28:21] I'm sorry. That was a great thought, but I'm hearing that really loudly and I'm thinking that's going to be hard to-
Christine Hickey [01:28:28] How is it?
Dee Perry [01:28:30] Well, actually, before I ask that last question again, I was just realizing there was one thing that I missed that I wanted to get in. You helped with making the Martin Luther King holiday into. Or the Martin Luther King birthday into a holiday? Or was that Lou Stokes?
Steve Bullock [01:29:01] Oh, okay. When I was in Minnesota, This was- I was there 1976 to 1982. And I'm not going to remember exactly what year it was, but it was during that period when there was this move afoot to Try to get Martin Luther King holiday. And I was involved with a group there through our church, Pilgrim Baptist Church. My pastor was a Virginia Union graduate. Anyway, we did several events to try to convince to move that forward, including spending time in marches to the Capitol and making the presentations regarding. I remember being out in the very. I don't know if it's January, didn't matter. January, February, there was snow and there was snow in December and November. But we were preparing for this march and we had one of the leaders of the. One of the faith leaders, a preacher. It wasn't my pastor, it was another. Reverend Williams made this speech about racism and he was talking about how things have changed. And he said racism was similar to the automotive industry in the olden days. You had stick shift and you change the gear and you'd feel it and then automatic and you don't know it. And he said the same thing is going on in racism. Things are changing that are negative when you don't even realize it because it's so smooth. And I don't know why, but I remember that because he got so many folks attention. But anyway, we. Minnesota, like others finally came around. And I don't remember the date that it became a holiday in Minnesota, but it was during that period when I was there.
Dee Perry [01:31:29] And now as you think about the things that we've talked about and things that are still on your mind, I wanted to see if there's a final message or some just thoughts that you wanted to-
Steve Bullock [01:31:42] Well, yes, I was talking about the value of establishing relationships, especially for everyone. But as I said, for someone who is in a leadership position or who is in the place to be a leader, I think it's important, important to determine what relationships on a strategic basis you want to develop. And as I said, this is not to be exclusive. That's not the intent. I am one who whenever I have opportunity to be exclusive or inclusive, I am inclusive and that's what I encourage. But I think there are some very along the way there are strategic opportunities to develop relationships that are mutually beneficial, not just tie yourself to somebody who's going to carry you along. And that's the other thing I wanted to go back to that. So don't let me forget that somebody's going to carry you along. But my, my education caused me to graduate a lot of times and my first graduation was from the sixth grade at Eden Rosenwald Elementary School. And maybe I remember this so well because my cousin was our speaker and his message was he told us the story about in Those days. In the little town of Enfield, there were parking meters, and for 5 cents, you could park for an hour. This is in the 40s. Yeah, about 49, 50, maybe 51 somewhere in there. Five cents gets you an hour on a parking meter. And he said he would see people who come to find a parking space, and they would drive around the block until somebody moved out of the parking space and they would park on that nickel. He talked about wasting time and using fuel, but they were determined to park on somebody else's nickel. And his message to us was, I do not want you to go through life trying to park on somebody else's nickel. You know, make it on you. Make it on your own. So back to my point that I asked you to help me to remember, which was about strategic relationships. I met people. This is an area where I may have some regrets for myself in terms that I didn't do. I actually had an assignment to work for H. Ross Perot for about three weeks. It was in relation to prisoners trying to get prisoners released, American prisoners of war released in Vietnam. And I maintained that relationship. We were philosophically not in the same place, H. Ross Perot and Steve Bullock. But it could have been an important relationship for me in terms of accomplishing my goals. That's one that I didn't hang onto as long as I should have. And Colin Powell was another one. I had a great relationship with him, and I just let it drop because I was working on something else. But there are others, like Lou Stokes, that I. I did not. I maintained until the very end. And there are lots of others. And right here in this town, Otis Moss is one of my true friends as well. And I could name others. But if you think. I think spend some time just thinking about what. Relationships are important. As I said, they need to be mutually beneficial, not just I'm taking from you and not providing anything in terms of help for you. And that goes back to the nickel, you know, not living on somebody else's nickel in your life. But I would encourage people to pay attention to that and know that you have an opportunity to receive, but you also have a great opportunity to give and to share the blessings that God has given you.
Dee Perry [01:37:03] Thank you so much.
Steve Bullock [01:37:04] Okay, thank you. I appreciate this time.
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