Abstract
Virgil Dominic was born in Oklahoma. He is a retired television News Director and General Manager. Dominic is an inductee in the Cleveland Broadcasters Hall of Fame; Cleveland Press Club; Ohio Broadcasters Hall of Fame; Associated Press Hall of Fame and UPI Hall of Fame. This 2017 interview was collected as part of a yearlong, community-wide commemoration of the 50th anniversary of Carl Stokes' election as mayor of Cleveland.
Loading...
Interviewee
Dominic, Virgil (interviewee)
Interviewer
Tolliver, Sherrie (interviewer); Hickey, Christine (participant)
Project
Stokes: Honoring the Past, Inspiring the Future
Date
6-14-2017
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
76 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Virgil Dominic interview, 14 June 2017" (2017). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 501037.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/1186
Transcript
Sherrie Tolliver [00:00:04] The voice you hear is Sherrie Toliver. I am interviewing Virgil Dominic for the Carl and Louis Stokes Oral History program here at Tri-C. You may also hear the voice of Christine Hickey, production. We're speaking with Mr. Dominic, who is an icon here in Cleveland in the news reporting for many, many years. Think of him as a native son, even though you are actually from Tulsa, Oklahoma. Tell us what it was like coming to Cleveland to work in the news?
Virgil Dominic [00:00:45] Well, I was thrilled. Back in those days, which was 1965, Cleveland was the seventh largest market in the entire United States. Huge market. I went to work at WKYC, TV3, as the main anchor. The station was actually owned by NBC. In addition to being an affiliate, the ownership was also NBC. So the newsroom was staffed by NBC news correspondents. So I did the 6:00 and 11:00 news on television. Then whenever something major would happen in our area, they would pull me off anchoring and I would go become a reporter and I would report the story for the NBC Newscasts nationwide. So it was a great honor and I must say that coming to Cleveland was almost like coming home because I have a lot of relatives in the area. Even though I was born and raised in Oklahoma, my father who was an Italian immigrant and his dad, my grandfather, came to the Cleveland area directly from Italy and they got jobs in the rubber industry down in Akron. So throughout my life I've always had aunts and uncles and cousins in the Cleveland area. It's just wonderful how God works things from time to time. The other magnificent thing was that I was welcomed with the warmest regard, and in the warmest ways, by the people of Cleveland. Which doesn't happen in many markets. So I've always been so grateful that most of my career has been spent in Cleveland, and that I've lived here now most of my life, have so many friends and relatives here. I'm truly blessed.
Sherrie Tolliver [00:03:09] When did you first realize that you wanted to go into broadcast journalism?
Virgil Dominic [00:03:15] Well, probably when I was 16 years old. I was raised in a town of 17,000 people in southeast Oklahoma called McAllister. At an early age I had a very high singing voice. The Italian parents of that era, if any child had any kind of a musical ability, in particularly singing, mom and dad thought he was going to be the next Caruso. [laughs] So they, at great expense to them - I think it was $3.00 a week - they gave me singing lessons. Then a wonderful thing happened that nobody could quite believe at the time, but they opened a radio station in McAllister, Oklahoma. So when I was 15 or 16 I was working in a shoe store and my music teacher got a 15 minute radio program on the little radio station, KEDD, the 1,000 Watt Voice of Southeast Oklahoma. Whenever I was scheduled to sing on the program, she also let me read the script. So I'd get off, you know, in my lunch hour at [inaudible] the show went on at 3:00. I'd run up to the studio and I'd do the announcing and I'd do the singing. One fateful day that changed my life, I was rushing out of the studio because I had to get back to my job at the shoe store, and on the way out a gentleman stopped me and he said, Virgil, he said, you know, I'm the owner of this radio station. And he said, I've been listening to you on the air and you have a pretty good voice. And he said, Did you ever consider going into radio? And I said, No, sir. No, sir, I never did. Which I hadn't. So I went home and I talked to my parents about it, and my mother was very much against it. She thought radio was just so insecure. But my dad encouraged me to try. So I went and I got a job at the radio station. I was 16 years old, and now I'm 82. So I've been in it for a long time. [laughs]
Sherrie Tolliver [00:05:51] It was fate, not coincidence.
Virgil Dominic [00:05:53] Yeah. It was.
Sherrie Tolliver [00:05:55] And I misspoke. You actually went to the University of Tulsa?
Virgil Dominic [00:05:58] I went to the University of Tulsa, yes, I did. The Golden Hurricane. [laughs] Sherrie Tolliver [00:06:04] So you arrived in Cleveland just before Carl Stokes' historic bid for mayor. Could you tell us what it was like to meet him the very first time? What were your thoughts?
Virgil Dominic [00:06:15] Well, you know, that was 1965 and I met him only briefly then, but I got to know him pretty well when he ran in 1967. You know, there are so many impressions that I have of Carl Stokes and the almost overwhelming one is that he had such a charisma about him. You know, there's that old saying that certain people can walk into a room and they're immediately noticed, and that was Carl Stokes. No matter where he went, into any kind of a meeting, you knew that he was there. So I got to cover his campaign in 1967 and it was quite exciting. I think, you know, it all began, Sherrie, and this is just my opinion, but I think the catalyst for Carl was the Hough Riot. Even though he was not mayor at that time, of course. But he was a member of the Ohio legislature. But I think the significance of Hough was it became a symbol for all that was wrong in the black community. All of the discrimination in every level you can think of, whether it was education, jobs, economics, transportation. All of that frustration sort of came together in that terrible, terrible Hough Riot. So people then in the neighborhoods, I think, began to get a feeling that the only way they could really change things, because the White Administrations had not done very much, the only way it could change is if they elected an African American. And Carl, of course, was in the legislature. He began thinking about it and decided. There was a primary first in which, as I recall, 20 people ran. Including other African Americans. But Carl won the primary and went on, then, to the general election in which he faced a gentleman of great reputation, great integrity. A very honorable man named Seth Taft. So Carl was the Democratic candidate -- the first time he ran, he ran as an independent. This time he ran as the representative of the Democratic Party. And Seth Taft, of course, was a Republican. Everything came together and the outcome I believe really hinged on a series of debates between the two men. They were incredible debates. There was such an intense interest because, my gosh. You know? Cleveland, which was a white majority city at that time, I think around 61 percent as I recall were white. To have a black man run for the highest office in the city was almost unheard of, it had of course never happened before. So there was just an intense interest. The first debate was held on the east side at Alexander Hamilton Junior High School in the African American community. My gosh, another incredible thing happened. You know, television back then was in many ways just the beginning. I mean, now today there are live shots on every newscast. Maybe four, five, six of them. But covering something live back then was so complicated, it involved so much equipment it didn't happen very often. But this first debate was televised. I've seen figures where more than 100,000 people watched. Now, the auditorium that night, of course, was absolutely jam packed. Now, I was working as an anchor so I did not get to go to the auditorium. Of course, I watched the television feed. Carl came on, you know, very handsome, very well dressed, and he went after Seth Taft right away. And his primary argument was that Seth Taft was a carpetbagger. He lived in Pepper Pike, a very affluent suburb of Cleveland. Still is. Carl kept emphasizing in the debate, This man lives in a seven-bedroom house. You know? Which, of course, was, you know, who could believe that? Especially, you know, back in those days. I believe, again my opinion, Seth Taft was a bit rattled at the intensity and the arguments that Carl was portraying. So later Seth Taft himself said that that debate for him had been an absolute disaster. But something else happened between then and the next debate, which was held on the white west side. It was, I believe Carl had such a feeling that he'd done so well that he was going to just wipe out this guy. There wasn't even going to be a contest. So that began to be reported and there began to become a feeling that Carl perhaps was erring on the side of becoming a bit ego driven and arrogant. I think also Carl had dominated that first debate so much that between then and the second debate there kind of an aroma of sympathy that developed for Seth Taft. So when he then went to the white west side, the debate was completely different. The crowd was more favoring Seth Taft. And Seth Taft had learned a little bit, you know, from that debate and he came out attacking Carl. And he attacked him on the basis of, You're arrogant and you don't know what you're doing. In essence. So many words. Then he attacked him on, Your programs that you're recommending won't work. They're not the right thing for the City of Cleveland. Then Carl, and again this is my opinion but shared by many, and to this day we don't know why he did it because at that time Carl was far in the lead. But after hearing Seth Taft attack him for being arrogant, Carl said in so many words, and I think these are the exact words, he said, On November 7th (which was the election day) if Seth Taft is elected, it will be for only one reason. That he has white skin. Oh, my goodness. That auditorium erupted into shouts of anger, protest. Especially because Seth Taft had said from the very beginning of the campaign that he would never bring up race. That race would not be an issue. And then all of a sudden, my goodness, the black candidate, Carl Stokes, brings up and injects into the campaign the issue of race. So a lot of people were disappointed in Carl at that time, including the leaders of the Democratic Party. I think it hurt Carl in a number of ways. The Democratic Party, which he was depending upon, really, to give him a lot of support, the support became rather tepid. The benefit also for Seth Taft was that, oh my goodness, the money began to pour it. Because not everybody, but a large majority, felt sorry for him. So he started getting money, which allowed him to advertise himself, and he began getting support from some of the leading members of the community. The next thing you know, the race tightened. There were other debates. I think there were three more, I think there were five in all, but none had the impact that that second debate had. Incredibly, incredibly, on the Sunday before the election Seth Taft, who was way behind at the beginning of the race, Carl was way ahead, and the Plain Dealer came out with a poll and it showed the two men virtually tied at 50 percent each. Just about 50 percent each. So then what happened was, the election came - and I was covering election night and it was one of the most stimulating evenings, you know, I've ever had in my entire broadcast career. Because it was so close, it was so close. The results weren't known until very early in the morning, the next day. I think we were on until about 3:00 am, maybe 3:30 am when it finally became apparent that Carl had won, by the narrowest of margins. I think the margin was 2500 votes in favor of Carl, out of 250,000 that were cast. And then, here is the important thing, even then Carl only got 15 percent of the white vote. But that was enough to put him over the top. Now, if I could add, there was one more thing about Carl that people were not used to. Especially white people. I was privileged to cover him on a couple of times in this regard. Carl decided that what he would do was to go into the white neighborhoods and knock on doors and actually went completely unannounced. He would just go block by block, knock on the door. People would come to the door, my gosh. There was Carl Stokes. Well, back in those days, you know, it was highly unusual for any black person to go calling on a white resident. Yet here was this very good looking, very well dressed, very well mannered, smooth as glass, kind of a gentleman, and that was Carl Stokes and he did ask for the vote. Now, who knows, but he got 15 percent of the white vote, which was just enough to put him over the top, and I think a large part of it was that calling individually on white people in their homes and winning enough of them over. Convincing them that he was a good person.
Sherrie Tolliver [00:18:47] There was a chapter in his autobiography called, How to get elected by white people. Can you tell us a little more about the campaign? And specifically maybe even the campaign night because it was so close? Any recollections of the people,since you were at the station, people that were actually at the headquarters, what their recollections were?
Virgil Dominic [00:19:17] Well, the feeling was one of just, you know, complete tension. In both camps, there was an aura of quiet. Which is very unusual for an election night. But it was so quiet. Everybody was just on pins and needles. You know? And people were reluctant, the leaders of the respective campaigns. They were reluctant to say anything. Because they literally did not know, you know, what was going to happen. So there was a lot of seriousness about the whole mood at both camps. There was a lot of tension, as I've said, and a very reluctance to say anything that might later prove to be false. So it was different in that respect.
Sherrie Tolliver [00:20:13] Heady time. Continuing with you discussing his perhaps misstep with the debate, what was his relationship like with the press? And did that play a big part in his election and his tenure at mayor?
Virgil Dominic [00:20:33] Yes, yes. Those were, in many ways, a wonderful, wonderful time, because one of the great things about it, believe it or not, and this is going to sound [laughs] very strange, but one of the great things about it was there was less press. So let me explain a little bit. You know how it is today. I mean, there is everything; cable channels, satellite channels, foreign channels, international companies coming over. I mean, just look at the Presidential press briefings and how many people are in that room. Back then, there were two newspapers in town and there were three television stations and that was the media. Okay? So it produced a couple of very interesting results. One was that you got to know the political leaders very, very well and they got to know you very, very well. So once you had won their confidence, and you did by the traditional words of being fair and balanced. Once the political leaders saw that you were someone that could be trusted, then occasionally what would happen is the political leaders would have an individual meeting, a private meeting, with members of the press and they would say things like- well, I'll give you one example with Carl. This was after his being mayor, because this kind of a story could have caused him a lot of damage during the campaign. But he told me that one of the most difficult decisions that he ever made involved Martin Luther King, Junior. Back in 1967 when Carl was running what turned out to be the successful campaign, Martin Luther King was at his peak, or very near his peak. He was famous all over the country, all over the world, recognized as the great leader of African Americans. And revered in the black community like perhaps no other man. So Martin Luther King, according to Carl, wanted to come to Cleveland to help Carl, and he told Carl, Carl told me, that he proposed to hold rallies to get out the black vote, and to hold parades and, you know, really make a big splash in the community. And Carl said one of the hardest decisions that he ever had to make, because this man was one of his role models, was to confront Martin Luther King, Junior, and tell him not to come. Because Carl feared that with that much publicity the white community might resent it at a very critical point in the campaign and that they would resent Martin Luther King and all of the rallies and all of the falderal that goes with those campaigns and his great ability as an orator. Carl thought it might backfire on him and cause him to lose the election. He finally convinced Martin Luther King, Junior, that he had a real chance to become the first black mayor of a major American city but that things were so dicey that things could go wrong, too. He said it was one of the hardest decisions he's ever had to make. But that was the level of trust, you know? To get back to your original question, that the media had at that time with the leaders of the community. I think a large part of it was that, unlike today, they know the reporter. They know everything about that reporter back then. They knew about your reputation, they knew your background, your education, they even knew, you know, about your families. So it's a much more personal relationship between elected officials and the media back then. People don't, you know, comment about that very much but as I reflected in preparing for this interview it was one of the great privileges of being a journalist at that time.
Sherrie Tolliver [00:25:41] Carl's elected, it's history, what is his first priority as mayor. What vision did he have for the City of Cleveland?
Virgil Dominic [00:25:51] Well, his priority from day one, and he had preached this on the campaign, too, was that he was going to improve conditions in the Black community in every way. Especially in giving blacks more opportunities economically. He was going to create more jobs. What he did immediately in City Hall was he did add a number of Blacks, and a number of women, to his administration and created, I don't know how many, but a great deal of jobs in the immediate vicinity of where he was working in the mayor's office. So that was the first thing. His major, major point throughout his mayoral years was trying to improve conditions in the Black community. He also did something for which I think he deserves a great deal of credit. In order to make the jobs and improve the education and improve the condition overall of the African Americans, he created a program called Cleveland: NOW! What that was, was a program whereby he asked the community to donate, I think it was like $50 billion. Because obviously you could not raise that kind of money from city taxes. At this time, where he'd been elected and was enjoying the privileges of being the new mayor and people's good will towards him at that time, he thought the time was auspicious for him to put forward this program. So many, many people. Many, many white citizens. Many leaders in the white community began contributing money. Many foundations did. He was well on his way to getting the money whereby he would create the jobs by attracting new businesses to the community. The power that he had to do such a thing, and to win the confidence of the people, the confidence level being so high that they would actually go to their purses and their pocketbooks to contribute money. It's one of his outstanding achievements which I don't think he gets nearly enough credit for. But things went wrong, in one word. And that word was Glenville. Glenville. The riot in Glenville was a turning point, I think, in the administration of Carl Stokes. You know, he did some things that were not liked by the white community, particularly the police department. But things were so bad with the shootings and people being killed, that Carl decided that he would bar white policeman from going into that area for a period of time. He then, himself, along with his brother Louis, went in, walked the sidewalks, trying to calm people down. It was really, you know, obviously an horrific night. But then it came out there was a gentleman, a Black nationalist named Ahmed Evans and he had a small shop of some sort in Glenville. That's where the shooting began. I think to this day no one really knows who fired the first shot. But the turning point was it later developed that, it came out that some of the ClevelandNOW funds Ahmed Evans had secured for himself and for his own purposes. When that came out in the press, the white community especially really resented it. You have to remember, you know, that Glenville was a terrible, terrible incident. It was fresh on everybody's minds and everybody was shocked by it. And then to find out that, you know, a great fund that Carl had started, that white people were contributing to, that some of the money -- and I think it was really an insignificant sum, $10,000.00. But it didn't matter. Just the fact that a black nationalist had somehow gotten ahold of this money that white people had contributed began to turn the tide against Carl. People began to lose faith in him and began to have less confidence in him. Although he went on to be a successful mayor, the white people began to leave the City of Cleveland. And tings were never quite the same for Carl after that.
Sherrie Tolliver [00:32:10] That Glenville incident in '68 brings to mind what had happened just a few months before, which of course was a horrific day in April in '68 when Martin Luther King was assassinated. Tell us about that, because that was a high point for him, was it not? How the city responded to Dr. King's death?
Virgil Dominic [00:32:32] It was a high point in several instances, including nationally. Because Carl very honestly reacted to it in such sorrow that while on television he actually cried. They were genuine tears. People could tell that he was incredibly moved and incredibly hurt by the loss of Martin Luther King, Junior. The other very, very significant thing was that riots had erupted in many, many cities across the United States and it didn't happen in Cleveland. I believe the number one reason it did not happen in Cleveland was that Carl immediately went into the black community. I was with him for an hour or two, because then I had to go back and do the 11 o'clock news. But I walked with him and he had this very calming influence, people were all over the sidewalks, and people were out of their homes and yelling, hollering. Things were on the verge of just erupting into violence. Carl and his brother, Louis, and George Forbes who was the majority leader in Council at that time, I believe, they actually walked the streets. And I could remember Carl going up to individuals saying, Things are going to be okay. We must remain calm. We mustn't let this get any worse than it already is. So that also appeared on national television, and I realized the significance of that because a few days later NBC News had sent me to Detroit, where riots had occurred. Although it was after the riots, I was doing a story of the devastation that had happened during the riots, and it was amazing. Such a contrast between those burned out buildings and the rubble and the cement and glass that had been broken, to the calmness in the Hough and Glenville communities. And it was all because of Carl. About how he handled it with such aplomb and calmness, peacefulness. One of the high points of his leadership, I believe. Undoubtedly.
Sherrie Tolliver [00:35:27] It sounds like that would be maybe how you characterize his lasting legacy in Cleveland? What he accomplished? The Clevelanders think of what he gave to the city?
Virgil Dominic [00:35:42] I'll tell you what I think is his lasting legacy. Now, you'll have to remember back in those days things were so different. I mean, Black people in many ways were considered inferior. On the part of some whites. I don't think the majority of whites felt that way. The fact that a Black person, a Black man could be elected to such a high position, I believe that that was a signal to the entire United States of America that blacks were just as capable as succeeding in leadership roles than were white people. I think that is Carl's lasting legacy. I think he inspired many Black men, many Black women, to run for public office. You see the result. And it happened almost overnight when you think back. I don't have the exact figures, but Black gentlemen, in some cases women, were elected across the country to major positions of power. Mayorships, seats in Congress. That had never happened before. I think that it happened in large measure because Carl Stokes had not only done a good job, even though he was highly controversial at times, but the fact that he was a leader, the fact that he had charisma, the fact that he had such an infectious smile, that he conveyed a sense of ‘just give me a chance and I'll do a great job for you.’ The fact that the national television networks were reporting that side of him on the stories that they did, I think he was an inspiration that probably lasts to this day. Incredible, incredible moment in our history.
Sherrie Tolliver [00:38:09] We turn to his brother, Louis, who unlike Carl who wanted to go into politics and had gone through several elections, never wanted to be a politician. How did he go from never wanting to be a politician to 30 years in Congress? Can you tell us what it was like to work with Louis?
Virgil Dominic [00:38:31] Louis was just... a wonderful gentleman. You know, I miss him to this day. You're exactly right. You know, he- Louis never wanted to be a politician. He had worked very, very hard in his life. He worked in menial jobs, at one time he was even a shoeshine boy. He worked in an Army-Navy store at one time. A man, just like his brother, who literally pulled himself up by the boot straps. Louis, I think, saw racial prejudice up close. And one of the things that he told me was in this military career, which occurred in the mid '40s, he was I think at Fort Leonard Wood Missouri for initial training. And the training had ended and they put Louis and the rest of his unit on a train to transfer them to another base. It just so happened at that time, this was the mid 40's so the war was still going on, and the train also had a car full of German POWs who were being transferred to a camp, to an internment camp. Along the route the train stopped to give those aboard, the soldiers and the prisoners, a meal. A dinner. I think it was somewhere in Georgia, I think it was Fort Stewart or someplace like that. So they all got off the train and went into the dining hall, and Louis said it was almost unbelievable. He said they had the white soldiers in one part of the lunchroom, then they had the German POWs in another section, then they put up a black curtain to separate even the German prisoners from the Black soldiers. Of which, of course, he was in that group. So he was always, you know, so mild mannered, Louis was. But when he told me that story you could see a fire in his eyes about how much he still resented that, and I think also it was one of the things that motivated him into public life. But how he became a member of Congress you could put in two words. The words are Carl Stokes. Because Carl and Louis were, you know, extremely close. I mean, brothers in every sense of that word. They were best friends, conferred with each other a lot, advised each other a lot, believed in each other a lot, and pulled for each other a lot. They were quite a combination. So Louis, of course, his whole thing was being a lawyer. He'd studied very hard, he had his own law firm, and he was completely devoted to that law firm. He loved it. That was going to be his life. Then Carl started working on him. Carl was mayor, and he worked on him. Kept working on him, and he kept saying, you know, I've got my machine all set up. Because he had all his volunteers from the time that he was mayor, that helped him get elected mayor. So he finally convinced Louis to run for Congress and he won in overwhelming majority. I think it was like 75 percent. The other thing, too, that Louis did right from the very beginning. He also, you know, was just a charming man. But very, very different from Carl. I mean, when you were with Carl it was exciting. You know? You were always wondering what was going to happen next. You know? He always was so engaging and so active, lots of energy. Louis was very quiet, very conservative, he had his own way about him. You know? He obviously was very skilled, very educated. One of the things that, you know, I will never, never forget was that after he won the election and he was the first Black congressman from the state of Ohio. Just think about that. These two brothers, holy mackerel. One the first black mayor and now the first black congressman from Ohio. But he said in a very excited and sincere manner, "I am going to work within the system. I'm not going to fight the system, I believe in the system. You ought to believe in the system, too, because look at me. I ran in the system, and I got elected. I believe that any black person or any minority can do the same thing." Then he had a bit of a caveat, and it was the reality of that day. He said, "Yes, it can happen. But for a black person, you're going to have to work harder. Unlike a white person running for office, you're going to have to prove yourself in a much more determined and dramatic fashion." So throughout that long, long career of 30 years. Thirty years. That was always his demeanor. That was always his guiding star. Yeah. He was going to fight prejudice and he was going to fight dishonesty. He was going to fight all the enemies there are out there to the democratic process and to the people involved in our country, but he was going to do it within the system. And he always did.
Sherrie Tolliver [00:46:10] I can hear something.
Christine Hickey [00:46:12] Yeah, yeah, I don't think there's anything. How's it sound over there, Adrian, okay?
Adrian [00:46:18] All I'm hearing is just a little bit of the computer.
Christine Hickey [00:46:21] Okay.
Sherrie Tolliver [00:46:22] I just wasn't sure the- It's like.
Christine Hickey [00:46:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sherrie Tolliver [00:46:26] Okay, well, we'll figure. Okay, thank you.
Christine Hickey [00:46:30] Virgil, when you're talking about Lou, you try and say his name at the beginning so I know who you're. Which one? When I go back and look at it, I know which one you're talking about. I know. If we're gonna hear this on its own, we're not going to necessarily hear her question.
Virgil Dominic [00:46:47] Okay.
Christine Hickey [00:46:47] So if you can just answer, in a complete sense, most of them. I've got bites picked out in my head, but just keep that in mind.
Virgil Dominic [00:46:53] All right. Okay. At some point, you know, I'd like to talk about the influence of their mother. Okay, very good. Very, very good. Mm-hmm. Thanks.
Sherrie Tolliver [00:47:08] Okay. I heard you speak about how much support they gave each other and how close they were. And the one thing they agreed on, even though they had two different personalities, was who influenced them the most, and that was Mrs. Louise Stokes. Did you ever meet her? And can you tell us any stories about their relationship with her and what a great influence she was on them?
Virgil Dominic [00:47:33] You know, I never had the pleasure of meeting Mrs. Stokes, but listening to how Carl and Louis Stokes described her, she was quite a lady. She was a cleaning lady and she worked by her hands. I understand she used to take the trolley out to the white neighborhoods and scrub the floors. You know, dust the house, do the dishes, all the dirty work. She had to do it all alone because her husband, the father of Carl and Lou Stokes, had passed away when they were both small. Louis Stokes, when I interviewed him one time, he was very, very sentimental about his mother. He told me a wonderful story which I was able to recite when I covered his funeral. He said that as little boys Carl and he were out in the yard playing one day. They lived in public housing, Outhwaithe. They were out playing and there were other kids around and they had toys. So Carl and Louis, they were playing with sticks and stones and hide-and-seek, but other kids had tricycles and things, little cars to play with, as most children do. So they got a little huffy about it. Louis said that they, both Carl and Louis, went in to see their mother who was home at the time, and they began complaining to Mrs. Stokes and said, Mom, in so many words, we don't have any toys. We don't have any toys. These other children, look. They've got toys. And Louis told me that immediately his mother, Carl's mother and his mother, she put down her broom and took the hands of both of her children, led them out the door, walked them down to the sidewalk. They had no idea what was happening. She walked them to a public library. To a public library. They walked into the public library and Mrs. Stokes, according to Louis, said, Look. Look at all the books. These are your toys. Go play with them. I am telling you, I think that's one of the greatest inspirational stories I have ever heard. And look at the effect it had. They did exactly what their mother told them to do. All the rest of their lives they studied books and books. Both became lawyers, one became the first Black mayor of a major American city, and one served in Congress for 30 years. You talk about the power of a mother? Inspirational.
Sherrie Tolliver [00:51:17] Wow. Speaking of her values and the influence she had on them, my next question would be reminiscing about Louis's character as a congressman. What was his reputation like in Congress? Earlier you said he confronted things through the system. What battles did he have in Congress? If you can think of anything in particular.
Virgil Dominic [00:51:47] Well, he was, again, like Carl he was mostly engaged with trying to improve the lives of minorities. He had great causes and they involved education. They involved jobs. They involved medical care, was a very, very big issue for him. He was respected throughout the halls of the Congress. I can't recall ever hearing a fellow Congressman criticize Louis Stokes. It was all because of his demeanor, of his quiet manner. Here's the other word, respect. You know, respect for the law, but also respect for his fellow congressmen. He continued to work within the system, and he began to be rewarded for that in the halls of Congress. For instance, one of his first assignments was to the Appropriations Committee. It was an incredibly important job because that's the committee that decides where the federal government is going to spend its dollars. I don't have any firm figures, but Louis Stokes because of that position, undoubtedly played a major influence in millions and millions of dollars going from the federal government into the state of Ohio, and into Cleveland, his district. I think it was also highly significant, during the time that he served there was a very important congressman who was the Speaker of the House, Tip O'Neal, from Boston. He was pure Irish and he had a gregarious kind of a personality. But he was known as sort of the king maker, and he was Speaker of the House in every sense of that word. He controlled that House. He had such confidence in Louis Stokes that he appointed him to the committee that investigations the assassinations of both Martin Luther King, Junior, and John F. Kennedy. So that is a clear example of the respect that he enjoyed in Congress. So, you know, being the reporter that I am, after Louis retired I tried to gently probe a little bit to find out what he really felt about those assassinations. But true to his character I got nowhere. You know, those lips were silent about that. What is officially on the record is that the committee did come out with the finding that there could have been more than one assassin, but there was no evidence of a conspiracy. So that's what the record shows, and that's the way it is until something else may turn up later on. But true to his word, he had sealed lips when it came to that issue.
Sherrie Tolliver [00:55:54] On that last question, if I was new to the city and I was walking around and I saw all these building and places named after the Stokes brothers and I said, Who are these guys and why is everything named after them? What did they do? How would you summarize for someone who really didn't know? That wasn't a Clevelander. Just the impact, who they were as people? Not so much as politicians, but as people to the City of Cleveland.
Virgil Dominic [00:56:26] Well, I think I would put it this way. They absolutely loved the city. They loved it, you know, from the ground up.
Christine Hickey [00:56:37] Could you start with, you know, the Stokes brothers absolutely love this city?
Virgil Dominic [00:56:44] Well, I guess I would put it this way. I think the Stokes brothers, Carl and Louis both, they truly loved the City. They were born and raised here, and although they went separate ways later. As you know, Carl became an anchorman in New York City for a period of time, and of course Louis then went to Washington, but their heart was always here. Their heart was always with the people of Cleveland and with the city itself. So their lasting contributions are evident in some of the buildings that we have in the city. The recreation centers, the hospitals, the welfare centers, educational facilities. And those are all well deserved tributes to them. I do believe that their lasting contribution goes far, far beyond the City of Cleveland and the boundaries of the state of Ohio. These were men of rare intellect, rare courage, because it was so difficult at that time to run as a black person. We don't talk about courage very much anymore, but Carl and Louis Stokes both had that 100 percent. The other thing that they had, sure they had their defects here and there, but they never lost their compassion for trying to help people. They were not in it to enrich themselves. I mean, you hear nowadays, and I'm not being critical. I don't want you to think that, or anyone listening to. I'm not being critical of the present system, but it is a fact that most of our congressman in office now have a great deal of money. Carl and Louis did not. Their motivation was pure, which is another word you don't hear very often anymore. They wanted to do the right thing, they wanted to help. They wanted to use what their mother had given them, and the influence that she had on their thinking and on their behavior. I think it was all rooted in their mother. And they succeeded in achieving her dreams for them, by leaps and bounds. I was extremely privileged, not only to cover them as a journalist, but to get to know them as friends. As friends. I can still hear Louis, you know, coming down the hallway and seeing me and saying, Hey, Virg, how you doing? That was him. Always low key, always humble. Boy, I've used a lot of words here that you don't hear anymore. Humility, I think, marked both of them to a large degree. It was the leavening, especially with Carl. Carl had this incredible personality and was just so energetic. But he never lost his humility, too. And used it when it was appropriate.
Christine Hickey [01:01:08] Let's talk about how Carl and other leaders of the Cleveland community handled the day that MLK was assassinated. Tell me when did this happen and how did Carl handle the situation compared to what happened in other cities?
Virgil Dominic [01:01:38] Well, Carl acted with a great deal of courage. He went into the Black community, actually walked the streets, and talked to individuals. The potential for a riot was very, very great. Riots had occurred in other cities. But Carl, through his personality, the peacefulness with which he approached people, his words of encouragement, calmness, Don't make this worse, played a major role in keeping things quiet in Cleveland.
Christine Hickey [01:02:13] How did you compare that to when you went out to Detroit?
Virgil Dominic [01:02:18] A few days later, you know, I was sent by NBC News to cover the aftermath of the riots in Detroit, and it was an incredible contrast to see the broken glass and to see the shattered buildings and to see the results of the fires and the charred remains of once were proud buildings. All as a result of that riot.
Christine Hickey [01:02:42] Okay. Then I want to get the beginning of it. So on April 4, 1968. Just explain that. April 4, 1968, Reverend Martin Luther King was assassinated. You said something, hold on. I didn't write it down. But you gave a lot of credit to him about keeping Cleveland under control. I'm not sure what you said. I don't remember exactly what you said. Just set up the story that on April 4th of 1968.
Virgil Dominic [01:03:26] Well, when Martin Luther King, Junior, was shot and assassinated it, of course, was a great shock, especially to Clevelanders and especially to Carl Stokes, because Martin Luther King Jr. had come to Cleveland many, many times. So he had a very personal relationship with Martin Luther King Jr. In spite of the grief that he was feeling, he immediately went to the Black community because he sensed that there could be a riot and he walked the streets of the Black neighborhoods. People were all over the streets, everybody was out, nobody was at home. The potential for violence was very, very high. But Carl was very, very calm. He spoke in quiet terms, he approached all kinds of individuals, spoke to them one on one and told them to calm down, not to make things worse, that we were going to get through this. In large measure, we did not have a riot. And in large measure it was because of Carl Stokes.
Christine Hickey [01:04:31] I don't know how much you can talk about the Appropriations Committee that Lou was on. I think he had a lot of influence in that position. Not only for Cleveland, he was able to help the Cleveland urban communities, but also throughout the United States. I was just wondering if you could talk briefly on that, about the influence that he had and the opportunity he had and how he used his power for the greater good in a way.
Virgil Dominic [01:05:14] Well, Louis Stokes' time on the Appropriations Committee, he applied his intellect to it, he applied his philosophy of staying within the system. He did that by evaluating every dollar that came before him. If he felt that those dollars were going to be well spent, were needed to be spent, then he certainly approved it. If he did not feel that way, he certainly did not hesitate in speaking out because he was going to save the taxpayers' money. So there was that combination of wanting to help, but doing it on a logical basis. I think that was his great contribution to being a member of the Appropriations Committee.
Christine Hickey [01:06:01] Okay. How would you summarize briefly Louis's political philosophy? You mentioned it before, but give me a brief point. How would you summarize Louis's political philosophy?
Virgil Dominic [01:06:24] Louis Stokes' philosophy was one that he stated at the very beginning of his terms in Congress. In his very first term, he said he was proud to be elected but he was not going to be a firebrand. That he had confidence in the system the government well established in the United States of America, and that he was going to do his job, but within the system. Now, this was occurring when there was great deal of outside influence with people that were trying to disrupt things. There were people who were encouraging violence. But he put a lid on that. It was so important because he was a member of Congress. I'm not quite sure I said that in just the right way. Let me give it another try, if you don't mind. I think to his everlasting credit, Louis Stokes' political philosophy was stated on almost the first day of his career as a Congressman. He said he was not going to be a firebrand. He was going to work within the system. He believed in the system. He, himself, was a product of the system. He had run within the system and had won, proving then that the system works. Throughout his career, that's what he did.
Christine Hickey [01:07:54] When I think about him, through all the conversations we've had with individuals, civic leadership comes really to mind. Can you briefly talk about the fact that both of the Stokes brothers were true civic leaders? They put Cleveland and the community members of Cleveland first.
Virgil Dominic [01:08:28] Well, Carl and Louis Stokes, of course, were native Clevelanders and they never forgot that. They went their separate ways in their careers but Cleveland was still home. They loved Cleveland. From the very beginning- Mm, I don't like what I just said. Is this more or less what you-
Christine Hickey [01:08:51] Yes. The fact that they grew up in the communities and they saw a need for a stand. These are politicians that didn't get a piece of paper that said there were needs in these different neighborhoods, they saw them first hand. They lived it. They knew a different part of Cleveland than our traditional politicians had seen at that time. I think they were moved by that, like you said, in the military and different things like that. They had experienced life in a different way and that led them to lead in a different way.
Virgil Dominic [01:09:31] Well, Carl and Louis Stokes, first of all were native Clevelanders and they never forgot that. They absolutely loved Cleveland. Their experience growing up in poverty really shaped their philosophy. It was shaped in this way, they knew what the problems were, they knew what the suffering was, and as political leaders they set out to alleviate that suffering through legislation and in other ways they possibly could.
Christine Hickey [01:09:59] That makes sense. Okay, thank you.
Virgil Dominic [01:10:02] Thank you.
Christine Hickey [01:10:08] This is a question I don't know the answer to at all, but did either of those gentlemen inspire you in any way?
Virgil Dominic [01:10:30] There is no doubt, you know, that as a reporter and as a citizen I looked up to Carl Stokes and I looked up to Louis Stokes, absolutely. I mean, I saw them clearly as leaders. I thought that they were the kind of leaders who anyone should admire. Because they might have had their faults and their defects here and there, but the overall thrust of their life was to help and to serve. That's why I looked up to them, and in many ways yes, they did influence me. I wanted to be the best I could be, too.
Christine Hickey [01:11:14] Can you- Now you- During the election night, you were in the- You were at the station. You weren't necessarily on the streets?
Virgil Dominic [01:11:20] Oh, no, no. I was anchoring.
Christine Hickey [01:11:22] Okay. What was it like, though, when Carl's. When they announced that Carl won, did you get a feeling. I know you weren't- You weren't on the streets, but from your perspective, sitting on that, what was going on at that time? What was the feeling?
Virgil Dominic [01:11:46] Well, it had been a very, very long evening because the election was so close and the outcome was not known until about 3 or 3:30 in the morning of the following day. There was the sense of almost wow. You know? He did it. This is really, really something major. And it's something that Cleveland should be proud of. That we elected the first Black mayor of a major American city. So there was that sense of participating in something that was historic. It was a very, very good feeling. Going home that night, you know, you felt good about America.
Christine Hickey [01:12:43] I know it's lengthy, but could you explain Cleveland: NOW!, briefly? I know there was some, I don't know if the word is correct, corruption issues that eventually came up. I'm not sure if that's the right word or not, but something happened with the term. I'm trying to figure out-
Virgil Dominic [01:13:08] Well, the only thing I could add would be the major thing was that Ahmed Evans. In my opinion that's what turned it. Because that was the corruption issue. People felt that in some way the system was corrupt because this Black nationalist had gotten his hands on money that was really meant for something entirely different, especially in the eyes of the white community.
Christine Hickey [01:13:34] So this is me trying to figure out the situation. So from what you're telling me is that Glenville riots, there was a shooting situation. Right. But it wasn't necessarily related to Cleveland now. No, it's just- That's how it came out.
Virgil Dominic [01:13:54] That's how it turned out. Yeah, exactly.
Christine Hickey [01:13:58] Okay. I was just making sure that I understood that correctly and didn't. Okay. Trying to think if there's one thing, one thing that you could say about Louis as reference to his legacy, you know, if you could pick one thing about Lou that you would want somebody to know about his legacy, not. Not the, you know, the 30 years in Congress, necessarily, but if there's just something that someone could take away from that. From Lou.
Virgil Dominic [01:14:46] Louis Stokes and his life and career are proof that- Let's see.
Christine Hickey [01:15:02] Something to do with the civic.
Virgil Dominic [01:15:06] Louis Stokes and the way he lived his life and lived his career, I think is proof that one man can do so much good for so many other people, if that person is motivated by the right things. That is using his intellect, using his education and his energy to serve the people and to help people who need it.
Creative Commons License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 License.
