Abstract

Reverend Emmitt Theophilus Caviness is a native of Marshall, Texas. He is the pastor of Greater Abyssinia Baptist Church and the president of the Cleveland chapter of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. Caviness served as a commissioner in the Stokes Administration. This 2017 interview was collected as part of a yearlong, community-wide commemoration of the 50th anniversary of Carl Stokes' election as mayor of Cleveland.

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Interviewee

Caviness, Emmitt Theophilus (interviewee)

Interviewer

Hall, Susan (interviewer); Hickey, Christine (participant)

Project

Stokes: Honoring the Past, Inspiring the Future

Date

2-16-2017

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

74 minutes

Transcript

Susan Hall [00:00:04] Good morning. I'm Susan L. Hall. It's February 16, 2017, and we are here at Greater Abyssinia Baptist Church in the library with Reverend Emmitt Theophilus Caviness. Good morning.

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:00:19] Good morning.

Susan Hall [00:00:19] Can you please say your name and spell it for us as you'd like to be referenced?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:00:23] My name is the Reverend Dr. E. Theophilus Caviness. That's E, period. Capital T, H, E, O, P, H, I, L, U, S. Capital C, A, V, I, N, E, double S.

Susan Hall [00:00:37] You moved to Cleveland in 1961 from East St. Louis, Illinois, with your young family after pastoring at St. Paul Baptist Church. How did you feel about moving to Cleveland and what was your impression of the Glenville neighborhood where Greater Cleveland Abyssinia Baptist Church is located?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:01:18] My wife, my son, and my dog came to Cleveland and in 1961, July of that month. And we came here with abundant enthusiasm for new congregation, new opportunity to bond with people and to integrate into the community and make it better place to live for all of the people who were here. In fact, in coming here, this area was so populated that had never seen that many people, people of color in specific area. So we were almost astounded by seeing so many of us having come from city that was not as large as Cleveland. We were really flabbergasted to see so many of us congregated in particular area.

Susan Hall [00:01:45] How were you received by the congregation as non-Clevelander and native of Marshall, Texas?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:01:51] Well, having come from Texas, it was- We were well received. In fact, the congregation had voted to receive us overwhelmingly. And so it was- They were cordial, they were friendly, and it was kind of down-home atmosphere and it was blessing for all of us.

Susan Hall [00:02:13] Would you describe your perception of race relations in Cleveland in the 1960s?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:02:18] In the 1960s, I would describe race relations here as the status quo. Don't rock the boat. Keep things as calm as you can. Make sure that everybody stays peaceful. There was hardly lot of equality and justice that was here at the time. And so I think in order to describe the atmosphere, it was something of let sleeping dogs lie and don't rock the boat.

Susan Hall [00:02:48] What was the size of your congregation when you arrived in Cleveland and how involved were they in civil rights?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:03:22] The congregation was approximately about 3,000 congregants and growing every day because there was so many people in this immediate area, until every week we were receiving new people. And so I would say that the congregation at that time was vibrant, upbeat, and we were receiving new congregants weekly, we baptized once a month. And things were really going well.

Susan Hall [00:03:25] In the early 1960s, a group of ministers went to City Hall to voice their concerns about the dangerous climate in Cleveland. Tell us more about what happened that day.

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:04:31] Well, I mentioned that in Cleveland we had an atmosphere of calm where don't rock the boat, keep things as they are, don't disturb things. And lack of progress was inculcated in that kind of atmosphere. And so having come, things were, I guess probably the calm before the storm was a way of describing it. Things were not as they should have been with regard to equality and justice and freedom. And there was a lack of opportunity, job security and all that, that kind of thing. And so there was unrest, I guess, underneath all of the calm that seemed on the surface. And so there was a prevailing kind of concern in the totality of the African American community that something needs to change. And so we were about to understand that in order to get that change, we were going to have to become active as ministers, as churches and the like. And so we began to do that.

Susan Hall [00:04:44] And on that day, who was in attendance?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:04:50] I think we were at Bob Lawson's church, B. Robert Lawson, at 79th and Quincy. The Emmanuel Baptist Church minister Dr. McKinney was there, who was pastor of the Antioch Baptist Church. Rev. Dr. Odie Hoover, pastor of the Olivet Institutional Baptist Church, was there. Myself and Reverend Jarman, who was pastor, Shiloh Baptist Church, among the others who were there.

Susan Hall [00:05:17] Can you describe the first time you met Carl Stokes?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:05:21] The first time I met this illustrious and distinguished gentleman was, I suppose, at the minister's conference. Dapper, articulate command of the English language, well-spoken, handsome kind of person, gregarious, outgoing, just had all the assets one would want in a real distinguished leader.

Susan Hall [00:05:47] Was he very well known in your congregation at that time?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:05:50] Was he well known in our congregation?

Susan Hall [00:05:54] Was Carl Stokes well known?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:05:56] Carl Stokes was a state representative. He was not well known amongst the church people. I think he went to St. Paul AME Zion Church, and his mother and Lou and all of them were members of that church. And so it was not too well known, I suppose, in the religious community because he was an activist state representative and the like. But to know him and to meet him was to almost know him because he was so outgoing and had such pleasing personality and kind of a guy. There's ma agnetism about him that was second to none.

Susan Hall [00:06:35] Where and when did a coalition of ministers vote to back Carl Stokes for mayor?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:06:42] Well, let me go back and just say prior to our supporting Carl and electing to stand with him, we had gone to City hall because said that was kind of calm before the storm. We had sent delegation, Reverend Jarman and two or three other fellows to Cleveland City hall to talk with Mayor Ralph Locher. We were asking for a dialogue, asking for a conversation, asking for ways and efforts that we could improve the situation for our people. And so instead of Ralph Locher dialoguing with those ministers, he had the police to escort him out of City Hall. And that began an unrest in this town that was noted by Carl Stokes. And so we talked with him, and Carl was of the opinion that don't get angry, don't get be smart. Let's take over the process, not just participate and let's take over the process. And so instead of going awry with activities that would not be wholesome for the totality of the community, we embraced Carl Stokes. And it was at that Emanuel Baptist Church that group of ministers met. And Carl, along with Dr. Clement, came to speak to us. And Carl made the pitch that it's time for change in this community. Other cultures have had their opportunities, time for us to do it. That was not well taken amongst the ministers because ministerial activities during that time was kind of aloof from political activity. There was an idea that maybe political activity was not so kosher, not so ethical or the like. And so there was an aloof that was present at the time. And ministers were not inclined to get involved in the governmental processes, not inclined to become politically associated. But I was new in this town and just wanted some change. And I knew that in order for progress to happen, there had to be some ruffling of feathers, there had to be some kind of peaceful activity. And so I made the motion that day that the ministerial community would coalesce behind Carl Stokes to see if we could not achieve some efforts that we had not done before. And it was at that day that Carl and Dr. Clemens, we came out of Emanuel Church. And Carl asked me, would you join our team? I said, I'm with you, I will be with the team, but I'm not a politician. I want to make sure that the churches become involved. My sole purpose for activity in any body would be that the preponderance of people were aided and assisted and helped. And so I wanted to make sure that I would participate in the process but not become a politician. I've always wanted to be church-oriented, church-based. And from there we could coalesce and help our leaders do what they need to do. And so we walked with him at that, joined that activity with him. So from then on, I walked with, accompanied him for appearances around the city.

Susan Hall [00:09:58] Were there any dissenters or was the vote unanimous to support him from the clergy?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:10:05] There was unanimous support for him at Emanuel Church that day. And I think he was buoyed by that. He was energized by that because it takes a community, it takes a village to get things done relative to what he was trying to do. And so once he had the religious community and by and for the Baptist churches were the ones involved, and we were the aggressive ones who were trying to change things. Not that there weren't other denominations, but we were out there in the streets making sure that things were moving. And so think he was energized by that. And that gave him enthusiasm, in fact, for him to ask me to join the crowd, I think suggested that he was enthusiastic about it and overjoyed that this had transpired.

Susan Hall [00:10:51] What role did you play specifically in the 1965 and 1967 mayoral campaign?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:10:58] I guess I was a foot soldier. I was a foot soldier. I was a procurer. I was one who tried to make sure that the ministers understood the thrust and that where we must needs go. I wanted to make sure that we included everybody, the least of our brothers and sisters, the street people and all. I wanted to make sure that all of us were on board with this opportunity for change in this city and making it a better city than it was at the time.

Susan Hall [00:11:29] What role did other clergy in Cleveland play in the mayoral campaigns for Carl Stokes?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:11:34] I think they joined the effort. They went to their churches, they talked about what we can do and how we can help in this process. In fact, have pictures around here in the church. You'll see where Carl Stokes came, and he just royally received. And I think he got that same kind of reception around the city.

Susan Hall [00:11:53] When did you become the president of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:11:58] Sixteen years ago, I embraced the leadership of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. Prior to that time, I think Dr. C. J. Matthews was the president, and it had fallen into kind of a lethargy that they were not as vocal. And the national office called me and asked me if would not assist him. And I said to Dr. Matthews that would be more than happy to help him. But the national office made a decision that I should really take over the leadership of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. And so it was because of the national leadership of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference asking me to take over this chapter that I embraced it. Sixteen years ago, and since that time, we've been actively giving scholarships to young people. We've been a voice for change in this community, a voice for the voiceless, trying to make sure that everyone was able to participate and get at the table of justice and equality and freedom.

Susan Hall [00:12:57] What role did the Southern Christian Leadership Conference play in the advancement of civil rights in Cleveland and the election of Carl Stokes?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:13:07] Dr. Martin Luther King- I met Dr. Martin Luther King when I was in East St. Louis, Illinois. Prior to my coming here, his beautiful wife had concert at St. Paul Baptist Church. And so I knew Martin and Ralph Abernathy on a personal basis. And so having known him, it was not new for me when he was asking to come to this city, it was not strange to me to embrace him. And so when I came here, I knew of the activity that he had done in Montgomery, Alabama, and around the South. And so it was really kind of a kindred spirit that allowed that to happen. And so when we were trying to embrace the efforts of Carl Stokes to become mayor of the city, Martin became involved. Mr. Bustamante was businessman here. He had known Coretta, and he had known Martin. And so they were sojourners. And with his understanding, Carol Hoover, Joy Bustamante, Mr. Bustamante, knowing them, they were aiding Carl Stokes. And so all of them came together in trying to make sure that Martin would assist us in our efforts. And so it was March 22, 1965, that Martin embraced Cleveland and came to Cleveland. In fact, he was on the Selma march from Montgomery to Selma, and he left that march on Wednesday evening and came here to aid and assist us. Throngs of people marched down 105. There were, suppose, about 6,000 people who were marching down 105. Martin was coming here to aid us in that voting process. And he was at Cory Methodist Church, which is a block from here. And when Martin came that night, there was 3,000 people assembled in Cory Methodist Church. And I was in the pulpit with him. And there were so many people on the outside. In fact, there were more people on the outside than on the inside. So Martin reached over and he said, Reverend Caviness, would you mind opening your church so that we can accommodate the throngs of people on outside? So I said, I'd be more than happy to, Martin. And so I slipped out of the back and came down to the church. And they announced at Cory that Dr. King was going to make his maiden speech here at Greater Abyssinia. And I suppose when I got here and opened the church up, within 15 minutes we had 1,100 people in the congregation. I had taken an offering prior the Sunday before because I knew that freedom is a good thing, but the delivery has some attachments. And so you have to understand that in order to achieve anything, there has to be some financial concerns associated therewith. And so that Sunday morning I had asked our development committee, our social action committee to help us. So we raised a great number of- We raised a good amount of money. And so that night we also raised money. And I'll say that because there's a caveat to what we had done little later. But right after Martin came down here, 1,100 people were here. And Martin stood there and spoke. He was basically concerned about voting. He said, that is the thing that we must do. And I think it was in concert with what Carl Stokes was trying to do. But he said, the most important step that you can make is that short trek to the voting booth. And he was espousing that prior to Martin's coming, sometime after Malcolm X had been to Cory, and Malcolm had espoused the philosophy that, you know, we're going to change things by any means and by any means possible. And he said, if you don't listen to Reverend Dr. King, his nonviolent activity, then you have to deal with us in our efforts to by all means get it done. So Martin spoke to us and we gave him colossal offering, a great deal of finance to help him. And you'll see on my desk a little thank-you note that he said for our civil rights committee here in Cleveland. Thank you, Father. The large amount of finance that we had given to him in our church, there were more Alabamians than any other state. I'm from Texas. We had some Louisianians, there are some people from Louisiana, there are some from other southern states. But by and large, if you ask the folk from Alabama in our church, it would be preponderous. I mean, they would be overwhelming. And so Martin said, I love Cleveland. And I asked him, Martin, why do you love Cleveland? Because after he had spoken that night, he went to his motel room and I talked to him about an hour on the phone while the other ministers were in there. Reverend Hoover and all of them were taking care of the monetary gifts that they had given. But I talked to him about an hour and he said, I love Cleveland because there are so many ex-Alabamians here. I think every time you had something that happened in Alabama, something egregious that happened to Black people, they would get on the and and get on the train and come to Cleveland. So we had an exodus of people who came here in colossal numbers. But that was the night that was memorable. It was the night that Martin Luther King electrified this town and I think mobilized more people to join the struggle.

Susan Hall [00:18:48] What was the reception of Malcolm after he delivered the Ballot or the Bullet at Cory?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:18:56] Well, Malcolm was nationalistic in his approach, wanting to change things a little faster than change can happen. And so he was espousing the ballot or the bullet. That was anathema to Martin because Martin was all about love your enemy, treat your enemy the way that you would want to be treated. But Malcolm had different message of give us the ballot or you're going to get the bullet. And Martin knew. And Malcolm, I suppose deep down in the deepest part of his soul, understood that we could not win by the bullet because we didn't have any bullets. And so there was hardly any need for us to pursue that kind of philosophy.

Susan Hall [00:19:45] How did the city of Cleveland change after the election of Carl Stokes as the first African American mayor of a major American city?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:19:54] Things were- Listen, you had to have been there to really get the enthusiasm, the joy, the sheer happiness, the fulfillment that was rampant in the streets. I think we were at the Rockefeller Building down on Superior. We were dancing in the street because I suppose this was our South African kind of exodus and freedom. But we were ecstatic. People were happy. They were dancing in the street. There was no Black-white. Together we almost exercised and had that song exemplified We shall overcome. It was our overcoming moment. We thought we had arrived, not knowing the struggle was going to continue. But that was the first part of our quest to make this town the kind of town that all of us could really appreciate and understand that we were valued and important to what's going on.

Susan Hall [00:20:58] What changes occurred in the Black community, post-election?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:21:03] I think that was- The atmosphere was changed. There was a sense of justice being propagated and there was sense of now you have the opportunity to go forward. Prior to that, I think there was kind of a lid on how far we could arrive progress. So it was open. Nothing is given to you, it's earned. But I think the atmosphere amongst the great number of the people was that now we can really understand that we are part of this city. Prior to that, we were kind of on the outside. We were kind of left behind. But at that time, we got there, arrived at the sense that we can get it done. We are part of this city now it's our city. As over against- Prior to it someone else's city. Now it's our city. And I think the changes were excellent in government at the time, there was token kind of involvement in City Hall. I think the one job that was occupied by an African American was the community relation. That has always been that token that you give to people. And I think Bert Gardner, who was head of the YMCA down on St. Clair, was the man who occupied that seat. But other than that, there were very, very few people of color. Janitorial service was not as involved as it should have been. And so Carl made a tremendous difference. It was almost a democratic thrust. It was an opportunity now for people to advance based upon your ability, not the color of your skin, but the content of your character and your ability to do the job. I think that is what really happened.

Susan Hall [00:23:05] At that time you worked in the Stokes administration. What position did you hold?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:23:12] When I embraced Carl Stokes, and I told you early on that Carl wanted me to come part of his administration. I always wanted to stay with the church. I wanted to work in governmental activity because I felt that if you are a minister, that you wanted to minister not only to the soul of people, you not only wanted to save their souls, you wanted to save themselves. So I am- So it was my philosophy. And so we can do this if we understand that God loves all of us and all of us are a part of that process. And so while I did not want to go downtown, I wanted to personally help Carl get the job done. And so he appointed me to the zoning board. I was the first African American chairman of the zoning board. Now, you got to understand, here’s a kid who came up in Texas, in a little small town, Marshall, Texas, 120 miles from Dallas, Texas. I didn’t know what zoning was. You lived wherever you could. And so here this guy is so aggressive. He says, “Be the chairman.” I said, “Wait a minute, slow down.” He said, “No, you got to be the chairman.” So I chaired that zoning board. I had to read overnight. I had to really become understanding of zoning and all of that. But I was the first African American chairman. Sylvester Williams was on that committee. But that was the kind of man he was. “You can do it, then go about it. You have the opportunity now, so get it done.” So that began my relationship to City Hall. When I left, I stayed on that zoning board for six and a half years. And then George Forbes brought me to City Council. I stayed there six and a half years. And after that, then I went to the mayor’s office for 10 years with George V. Voinovich. And subsequent to that, then I went with Voinovich down to Columbus, Ohio, as head of the Ohio Civil Rights Commission for eight years under George Voinovich and one year under Governor Taft. So that has been my journey with governmental activity.

Susan Hall [00:25:26] What other appointments happened after the election of Carl Stokes for African Americans? 

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:25:32] Say it again.

Susan Hall [00:25:32] What other appointments? Who else was appointed to key positions in the cabinet of Carl Stokes?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:25:39] Carl Stokes went around the country securing talent for his cabinet—African Americans in Pittsburgh, Chicago, wherever they were. And there was a dearth of positions for African Americans. And so young men of stature who were apprised of opportunities were trying to get to Cleveland. And so he reached out and got talent from Chicago, Pittsburgh, and around the country. So he had a distinguished cabinet of professionals who knew what they were doing. They had not had the opportunity in other cities, but he gave them that opportunity. So this man was massive in his quest to make sure that his administration became a model for administrations around the country. And he did an excellent job of securing a cabinet that was right on target with the things that should be going on.

Susan Hall [00:26:37] What were the major challenges during the Stokes mayoral administration years?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:26:44] Carl Stokes wanted opportunity for everybody, and he wanted everybody to have a chance to sit at the table of equality and justice and freedom. And so it was he who was not just concerned with having people come in, but he wanted to kind of have the community involved in this. So if you had talent, then he wanted to seek you out and give you the opportunity to succeed. And so everyone in this town then understood how fortunate they were to have a man who reached out to make sure the opportunity was there for them to succeed.

Susan Hall [00:27:30] If Carl Stokes had not been elected in 1967, do you think that there would have been access for people of color and women to serve in Cleveland city government?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:27:41] Absolutely not. If Carl Stokes were not elected mayor of this town, I'm frightened at what might have transpired because there was unrest. There was feeling of uneasiness with regard to how things were going. And from what transpired later on, you can understand what was going on at the time. So I think his election really delayed confrontation and the kinds of things that would have destroyed the city.

Susan Hall [00:28:16] Louis Stokes ran for congressional office in 1968 as a representative of the 21st Congressional District. What role did you play in his campaign?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:28:27] I suppose I played the same role in trying to get Carl Stokes elected. Because I think right after he was elected, he called me to his office. He said, I want to see you. So I went down to his office, and he said, Now, my brother Carl, in Columbus, had worked hard to make sure that we would have a congressional district in Cleveland. In fact, he worked with Republicans, and he had that kind of personality that could work with anyone. And so he worked with the people in Columbus, and they created a district, the 21st District. And so then, when they did that, Carl thought that his brother would be the ideal person to take that seat. And so he called me into City Hall, and he said, Now, Reverend Caviness, you’ve aided me, and you’ve helped me. Now I want you to help my brother.” And so I said, “What do you want us to do? He said, Well, I want you to first let the people know how qualified he is for this congressional seat. And I think there were about 21 other people who ran. But Lou Stokes had worked with the NAACP. He had done an excellent job with the NAACP, was always out there for people, trying to do the best for them. And as a consequence, Carl said this: My brother has been out there working in situations free of charge, and I just think he’s eminently qualified for this job, and I’d like for you to help him. So it was at that point that I began, then, to do the same thing that I’d done for Carl. I did that for Lou Stokes.

Susan Hall [00:30:03] How did the election of Louis Stokes as the first African American elected to Congress in the state of Ohio change politics in Cleveland?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:30:13] Things were never the same. With Lou Stokes as the congressman from the 21st District and Carl Stokes as mayor of the City of Cleveland, things were going upward. They were going forward. In fact, that duo really changed things for Northeast Ohio. Lou was kind of a calm, smooth-talking, kind of magnetic guy that, you know, he could sell you a bad used car. He was smooth. Carl was aggressive. But Lou had that smile you would get from him. It was infectious. And he could sell you a used car that would not be as good as it should be. That’s the kind of guy he was. So the two of them, they complemented one another. Carl was that aggressive kind. Lou was smooth and the like. So the two of them did wonders for this city. Change did not come as easily as Carl would have wanted it. Carl had a difficult time with City Council. They were not prepared to endorse the changes that he had embraced. And so he had problems with City Hall at the time, but he and his brother formulated the kind of team that moved this city and this area forward. In fact, you remember, the Democratic Party was very difficult to handle. At that time, they did not want to work with Carl Stokes. So Carl and Louis formulated the 21st Congressional District Caucus, which worked out that, in spite of the Democratic Party that did not want to embrace Carl. So they constituted the 21st Congressional District Caucus that was not in the area or the avenue of politics as usual. They embraced the concept of, Let’s get this done, and as we are, we’ve got to make sure it happens. And so we’ve got to look around the city and not restrict ourselves to just partisan Democratic politics. We’ve got to embrace the totality of our peoples.” So the motif, the motive for us was, Let’s get things done. Let’s do things for people that need to be done. And so that 21st Congressional District Caucus had an independent air. It had an independent kind of aura that embraced people regardless of their politics. In fact, one of the things that they did there, they went for Virgil Brown, who was county commissioner at the time, and so he was a Republican. So while the Democrats did not want to embrace Carl Stokes, the 21st Congressional District Caucus began to embrace people who were competent, willing, and ready to work. And so we got a lot done as a consequence.

Susan Hall [00:33:25] What were some of the major challenges that Carl and Louis Stokes faced in governance?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:33:31] Moving the dial forward, making sure that progress was inclusive of everyone. In bringing people in, instead of excluding people, they were including people. And I think Lou and Carl did a great job of mobilizing talent in this area, and it kind of—it really caused the country around here and around us to wake up and understand their power. We elected Carl Stokes with 33 percent of the population, 27 to 33 percent of the population. That was unheard of. We won by 3,000 votes in '65. We lost by approximately that. And then we came back and won. Around the country, cities that had better racial populations than we did were not inclined to go forward. So Carl Stokes became that kind of emblem. He became that kind of symbol that said, We can do it, and regardless of the numbers, let’s get it done. And so he and his brother formulated the kind of atmosphere for the country to embrace. And so after we had done that, and he became the first African American mayor of a major metropolitan city in the country, they began to get the enthusiasm and the idea that they could get it done. So Gary, Indiana, was subsequent to us, and then they went around the country, finally, you know, Atlanta, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, all of them. We can get it done. And I think all that began in the mind of young Carl Stokes, who was aggressive and willing to get it done regardless of what we had to do.

Susan Hall [00:35:17] Carl's election, as you said, is because of coalition politics. Who, outside of the Black community, were supporters of Carl Stokes through his campaign and his subsequent election?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:35:32] You know, progressive people, people who were people of all colors, people who were interested in the democratic concept, people who were inclined to open the table for people to sit. And I think he had Caucasians, he had Hispanics, Latinos. He had people of every ethnic group, every political stripe who came together to help him. It was kind of once in lifetime moment. It was a Camelot moment, where here is an opportunity for us to show that democracy can work for the least of our brothers and our sisters.

Susan Hall [00:36:15] You spent many years serving on the Civil Rights Commission. What were you able to accomplish during those years?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:36:23] I served for eight years. I sat under George Voinovich on the Ohio Civil Rights Commission, and one year with Governor Taft. And serving on that Civil Rights Commission gave me an opportunity around the state to address places of unrest. Wherever there was a transpiration that happened because of racism or something like that, or people who were treated unfairly, that gave me an opportunity as chairman of that commission to go to that particular place and defuse the situation so that there would not be rioting and that kind of thing. And so that gave us an opportunity to address all of the activities around the state that did not really portray the kind of togetherness, the kind of justice that George Voinovich was about, and we were able to calm a lot of situations that otherwise might have flared up and been conflagrative to this state.

Susan Hall [00:37:33] It's often suggested that civil rights organizations like the NAACP and the Urban League are no longer relevant or attractive to young people and possibly even to the greater Black community in general. What do you think has caused that to occur?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:37:53] You know, I’m appalled that that reality is part of the discussion. We must understand that without struggle, there is no progress. Frederick Douglass was right on target. No progress without struggle. You’re never going to achieve anything without really fighting for it. And so it pains me that young people do not understand how important it is to participate in the struggle for freedom and justice and equality. As I said, the oppressor is never going to accede to the oppressed without struggle. And so we have to make sure that somewhere down the line, our young folk understand that the struggle continues, that wherever you are, you are who you are. And if you’re going to make sure that things change, you’ve got to be part of the process. And so I’m amazed that we cannot get a preponderance of our young people to understand that you need to be a registered voter. Fifty years ago, Martin Luther King came to this city asking us to exercise that right to vote. And because we did that, we were able to elect an African American mayor of a major metropolitan city. He asked us to do that. Fifty years—here we are replicating this. If voting were not so important, why would people be trying to repress it? So you’ve got to participate in the process. Talk is cheap. You’ve got to work and make sure that it happens. And so I would say to those young folks that all of us should be in this. Without the NAACP, Congress of Racial Equality, the Urban League, the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, without the support of these organizations coming together and making sure things happen, we never would have been able to arrive at where we are today. So it’s important for young people to understand the struggle continues. There will never be a utopian kind of situation without our fighting for it. And so I say it pains me to see young people not understanding from whence we have come and how we have come. And in order to get where we need to go, we’re going to have to be participatory in the process.

Susan Hall [00:40:16] What do you think the future holds?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:40:19] I’m always optimistic. It’s amazing. While we’re celebrating Black History, we’re also talking about 50 years of progress with Carl Stokes as our leader. I’m optimistic that things will get better. Right now, right now, because of our not wholly involving ourselves in the process, we are confronted with some painful times. I thought that this country was on its way up with regard to affording opportunity for everyone. I thought that racism had been really challenged and that we were on our way up. Unfortunately, with the last election and the things that happened, there’s a gloom that has come over all of us who are activists out there, and we don’t know just where we are in terms of this country. We had done something in Northeast Ohio that had never been done before. And that was probably the tenor and tune of what was permeating the society of this country. But this last election gave me pain to understand that, really, the struggle continues. It’s not over until it’s over. We’ve got to make sure that we are diligent and vigilant in participating in the process and understanding that change comes when you are prepared to be what you’re talking about. Change comes when you’re prepared to work for it and struggle for it. And so it means, with what is happening now, we have to double our efforts. And where we have been less vocal and less involved, the time now is for us to become involved, become vocal. We’ve got to resist the efforts of those who would carry us back to from whence we have come. We’ve got to go forward. William Barber down in North Carolina says, "Ever forward and never backward." And I think that’s what we’ve got to embrace. Young folks, all folks, must understand, if we don’t go forward, then we will relapse into activities that really are not the best, are not in the best interest of America and the United States of America. Martin Luther King always said, "Either we are going to ultimately learn to live like brothers and sisters, or we’re going to die as fools." And so I’m of that opinion that we’ve got to keep, keep struggling, understanding that no people have come so far as fast as we have. And so this democratic republic has afforded us the opportunity to make things happen. And that’s where we must be. We must be vigilant and diligent, involved in the process, understanding that the struggle continues. And in order for us to arrive at the zenith of where we want to go, everybody has to be all in.

Susan Hall [00:43:36] You have referred to yourself as a "Republicrat" in the past. What does that term mean to you?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:43:43] I always say I’m a "Republicrat" because I see people, regardless of their political affiliation, as persons who are either on the right side of the issue or the wrong side of the issue. And there are some good people in the Republican Party, there are some good people in the Democratic Party, and I’m not going to embrace anyone that’s not of the concept of affording equal justice and equality to everyone. And so I’ve seen in the past great participation from the Republican Party. We could never have gotten the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, without Everett Dirksen of Illinois participating. Lyndon Johnson even said, if it had not been for Everett Dirksen, a Republican from Illinois, we would not have gotten it. Jacob Javits in New York, Rockefeller—these were Republican people. So prior to John Kennedy’s election, most Black folks were Republican. We embraced Abraham Lincoln’s concept, so we were all Republican. I think Roosevelt, President Roosevelt, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, caused some change with his New Deal, and he had some. But we really became convinced when Dr. Martin Luther King was in jail in Alabama and John Kennedy called Coretta Scott King and said, I want to do something about getting your husband out of jail. Richard Nixon was running for president. If he had made that phone call, we would have stayed Republican. But when that man made that call, that turned it. And so John Kennedy became the president and Nixon lost. So that says to me, there are good people in every corner. Lyndon Johnson was a segregationist to the core from the beginning. But he was a man who was at the right place at the right time, and he was the one who got the Civil Rights Act. He was the one who got the Voting Rights Act. So here’s an arch-segregationist who— Hugo Black, who was on the Supreme Court, was in the Ku Klux Klan. So you’ve got people of every stripe on either side. So from that, I understand that you can’t just be wedded to a particular party. You’ve got to understand that there are good people in every party. So I become part of the Republican good people and Democratic good people. So that’s the reason why I'm a "Republicrat."

Susan Hall [00:46:10] What do you think started the Glenville riots of 1968?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:46:14] I think the riots in 1968 began because there were impatient people who wanted change instantaneously, and they felt that the best way to get change was the bullet. As Malcolm X once said, you could get some guns. So one of the painful moments of Carl Stokes's mayoralty was the fact that he had tried to help a community group have resources. So instead of the resources that he had raised to try to help improve situations, there were some misguided individuals who wanted instant change, who took those funds, and instead of helping the community, they bought guns. And as a consequence, we had an insurrection and a riot. And that did more damage to this community than you can ever fathom or imagine. In fact, that began the erosion of our communities, because the good efforts of Carl Stokes then were really challenged by this insurrection of misguided people who wanted change. Martin Luther King said the only way you're going to really change people is by changing their hearts. You can legislate their behavior, but you've got to change their hearts. So he was about nonviolent protest, nonviolent action that embraced people and loved people. And so Martin was of the opinion that what we do is inflict pain upon ourselves in order to gain the support of those who are not where we are.

Unknown speakers [00:47:55] [partially audible discussion about technicals issue] Susan Hall [00:49:18] Do you think Mayor Stokes' order to keep white police from patrolling the neighborhood and then ultimately calling in the National Guard heightened racial tensions in the neighborhood as well as throughout Cleveland?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:49:30] Well, I think obviously it heightened tensions and it- Many people abhorred his decision, but his decision was in the best interest of saving lives. It was about saving lives. I'm telling you, at the time, there was so much racism in the police department that were they able to come during that high time of tension and unrest into the community, that would have been loss of life, unheard of. And so I think he made the wise decision, although it was not popular. He made the decision that we're going to allow the communities to kind of police themselves. And so we were in the streets, we were around the streets, making sure that our people were calm, that we did not react to the violence that had been perpetrated against us. So we were peacekeepers. We understood that there can be no peace without justice. But I think the fact that Carl asked the police department to stay away from this situation and allow the community to kind of police itself was stroke of genius. And I think it saved multitudinous number of lives.

Susan Hall [00:50:49] What was the feeling about the National Guard coming in?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:50:54] It was- People did not like it, but it was necessary because unrest was all over the place and people were inclined to take up do violence. And if the National Guard were not here, then it would have given naysayers and people who were out to create havoc and to create animosity and opposition and that kind of thing, they would have had field day. So I think the National Guard was here to make sure overall things were going to work out in peaceful manner. And I think it was a stroke of genius. It was a courageous move on the part of the mayor to make that call. And I think that saved a number of lives that otherwise would have been lost.

Susan Hall [00:51:43] What role did you and Greater Abyssinia Baptist Church congregation play during and after the riots in Glenville?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:51:51] We were right here to make sure that we asked the people to be peaceful. In order to get change, you've got to be peaceful. There can be no progress without us understanding the attitudes and efforts of all people. So people in this community were of the opinion that, look, we are going forward and in order to go forward we've got to be peaceful. There must be the democratic process of allowing things to develop and the power must be in the people to get things done and to make sure that things are done. So I think that great Abyssinian was here on this corner preaching calm, peace with justice and peace with. And tranquility with an opportunity to go forward.

Susan Hall [00:52:48] In what ways has Glenville changed in the past 50 years?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:52:54] When I came in July 1961, Glenville was called the Gold Coast. It was a Jewish neighborhood primarily, and it was changing from a Jewish neighborhood to an African American neighborhood. And so it was considered the Gold Coast. Everything was fantastic. There were stores, there was everything that you would want in this community. And then the riots came, and they decimated so much of the progress we had made. And so, as a consequence, that brings up the fact that Martin Luther King was right. In order to have progress, you’ve got to have peace, and you’ve got to understand that the only way that you’re going to have change is through nonviolent action. He was a man who propagated the agape concept of love. Not eros and storge love, but agape love, which means that you love your enemy, you pray for them. That’s not- it's not taking a back seat. It’s simply saying the way to really win, and the way to win people, is by loving them and not by fighting them. I think Martin was of the opinion that if people have hell in them, you don’t beat the hell out of them; you love the hell out of them. So that's the only way you can gain. And so that becomes the opportunity for us to go forward in love and not try to injure anyone else, but to make sure that we are the people who love our neighbor as ourselves.

Susan Hall [00:54:39] You have stated that freedom is free, but you have to pay for its delivery. What does that statement mean to you today?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:54:48] Freedom is free. The democratic process is free. But the delivery process costs energy and it costs finances, it costs involvement. And so you're not going to get anything by sitting on it. You're going to have to be forceful. And LeBron says, Everything, nothing is given, it's earned. So I think what we try to say is that if you believe in what you believe in, then you've got to work for it. That nobody needed to give you what you need and you beg for what you want, you do what you have to do in order to achieve the success and the end that you would like to have.

Susan Hall [00:55:34] Cleveland provided the fiduciary means for the civil rights movement and electoral campaigns of the '60s.

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:55:43] Say that again.

Susan Hall [00:55:44] Who supported economically the Civil Rights movement in Cleveland and the electoral process in Cleveland during the '60s?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:55:52] Philanthropists. People who had money. We did not have a whole lot of money, but you know, it doesn't take a whole lot of money. If you have energy and you are prepared to get a job done, then a little bit here, a little bit there, and we put it all together and got it done. But there were generous people of the Caucasian community, generous people of the Jewish community, who aided us. We would never have arrived at where we are without the assistance of Caucasian people and Jewish people who have understood our struggle and who have understood our pain. So they have coalesced with us and always been there for us. In terms of money, we did not have a whole lot of money, but we had the idea that if you just stay at it, you can get it done. And if you'll just participate in the process, then somehow or another good things will happen.

Susan Hall [00:56:46] One of the goals of the Stokes commemoration this year is to explore the brothers' impact on political access and civil rights. What is your view of their impact in those areas?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:56:58] The Stokes era, the Stokes brothers, the Stokes motif, all of what the Stokeses stood for, has meant so much in this country. Not just in Northeast Ohio, not just in the state of Ohio, but around the world. Their efforts, aided and assisted by that magnanimous doctor, Martin Luther King Jr., who came here and ultimately took a bullet for his people, took a bullet for democracy, took a bullet for goodness, instilled in people the kind of idea that all is not lost, that we can succeed, that this democratic process can work, that we can get it done. It just takes patience, it takes energy, hard work, and we can get it done. And I think if all of us really understand that it takes not only a village, but it takes a family, it takes all of us to make it happen, we can make it happen. And I think Carl Stokes and Lou Stokes were the embodiment of that kind of progress and that kind of change, that kind of unselfish love and forgiveness that can get it done across the world.

Susan Hall [00:58:20] What were your major accomplishments while you were working with the zoning-

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:58:27] The concern on the zoning board was to make sure that neighborhoods were protected, that people in the neighborhood did not have an erosion of their premises. We wanted to make sure that zoning activity happened within the parameters of what it really was. And so, if you wanted to put a trucking concern in the middle of a neighborhood, that would be deleterious to that neighborhood. So, in order for you to have a society, a community that was stable and progressive, you had to make sure that every place was in its designated place. And so you could not have a trucking company put in. We did not legislate. The zoning board does not legislate. That's the purview of the legislative body. We were dealing with exceptions. Where do you want to put this? Why do you want to put that, in addition to the legislative law? But we were meticulous and methodical in making sure that we did not disturb the residential area. That would cause deterioration and deleterious activity to people’s security in their homes.

Susan Hall [00:59:44] And what were the major accomplishments done by you during your time with the Ohio Civil Rights Commission?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [00:59:53] I think by being at the Civil Rights Commission during that time, it was a time of unrest around the country, so we were able to still, calm muddy waters in the state of Ohio, where we were able to make sure that there were no major incidents that caused disruption to our state. And so we kind of survived wherein other communities were in disarray.

Susan Hall [01:00:23] Do you believe that the Ohio Civil Rights Commission is still needed today?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [01:00:29] Ohio Civil Rights Commission is needed today because there will always be opportunities for people to understand that all of us are important to the progress of all of us. So we need to have some attention to the inequities that might transpire in certain areas. So the Civil Rights Commission is there to sensitize the need for us to be vigilant and to make sure always, that if there's an inequity perpetrated against anyone, is an inequity perpetrated against all of us. When one is not free, none of us are free. So it's important for us to always reach out to have the totality of our community to understand that we can either live together as brothers and sisters or we'll die as fools.

Susan Hall [01:01:22] What do you believe is needed to continue to carry out the legacy into the future of yourself, Carl, and Louis Stokes?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [01:01:32] I think it's important for people who have really been part of the struggle, people who have been there. And I don’t say how successful I was, but for 55 years, I have pastored this church. And I think it's important for leadership, for people who have occupied positions of strength, to make sure that they mentor younger people. And so I have, in my quest, made sure that I always reach out. And representing the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, I'm always meticulously aware of young people who have a four-grade average or a four-point average. Those who are trying to succeed, we give them scholarships. We want to let them know that they can succeed. And so always in the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, always we have— Let me just mention the fact that FirstEnergy and elected officers of this have participated in this process of trying to help young people and trying to help them to understand. So I feel it’s important for you to mentor someone. So I’ve reached out to a young man by the name of Reverend Dr. Aaron Phillips. He's pastor of the Sure House Baptist Church here. And so he is a brilliant young former lawyer. He pastors a church here and understands the lay of the land. So I've reached out to make sure that I pour into him all of the skills and the wisdom that I've secured through the years. I pour out into him, and he goes out and implements that. And so he's become my extension in the community to make sure that wherever people are in need, he's there to help them. And I think that's so important for leaders in our city. Always reach back and get someone. And with young African American men having such a difficult time, it's supremely important for us now to not succeed ourselves, but to reach back and get a young boy — a young girl, for sure, but most of all a young boy because they're having so many challenges - to reach back and get them. So I've tried to make sure that you mentor someone. And I would ask— The Fatherhood Initiative is all about making sure that you reach back, not for yourself, but to make sure that you bring someone along, help someone, make sure that you pour into them. Because we live in those who come after us. And in order for us to live forever, it is to keep on giving to young people who will come up and be of that stripe and motive.

Susan Hall [01:04:01] As a young man, who was your inspiration and mentor?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [01:04:05] Well, I had a number of people who inspired me. In fact, Carl Stokes, Lou Stokes, all of these persons really inspired me. But I went to Bishop College down in Dallas, Texas. At the time, it was in Marshall, Texas. And so I had the dean of the college and the president of the college, Dr. — Reverend, I mean — Dr. J. J. Rhoads and Reverend Melvin Banks. These were inspirations to me. And as a little hungry boy, born poor in the city of Marshall, Texas, education to me became the key to progress. The bullet doesn't do it. Violence does not do it. Education does. And so an educational process kind of puts the onus on people who want to get it done. You're accountable. The Lord made you. He gave you talent, so you use that talent. So I saw in J. J. Rhoads and Melvin Banks the kind of leadership that I wanted to exemplify once I got into my efforts. Dr. J. J. Rhoads was the inspiration for getting the University of Texas to have its first student of color. He was principal of Booker T. Washington School in Dallas and the first African American president of Bishop College in Marshall, Texas. And through his leadership and inspiration and involvement with the NAACP and its efforts, they integrated the University of Texas. That was replicated in Alabama, where people there did the same thing with Miss Lucy to make sure she was the first student at the University of Alabama. You remember George Wallace at the door. But we succeeded. So I think it's also important for us to be people of leadership, but people who so conduct themselves that young folk will see in them the kind of change they will want to be, the kind of leader they want to be. And it's important for us to reach back and bring some child with us, pour out into them the kinds of things that we’ve tried to live for.

Susan Hall [01:06:20] Tell us about your early life- [inaudible] Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [01:06:22] Well, I just alluded to the fact that I was born in a little town of 25,000 people, in Marshall, Texas, 120 miles from Dallas, Texas. You know, when you’re in a small town, you always give the biggest town that you are associated with. So, if people don’t know Marshall, Texas, we had a little town that had East Texas Baptist College, it had Bishop College, it had Wiley College. And so I was born in that little town, rigidly segregated. If you go in my office, you'll see that I graduated from a colored school. Not a school, but a colored school. And so I emanated out of the bowels of rigid segregationist activity. And so, wanting to succeed, understanding that it takes an education to get it done, then I wanted to make sure that I participated in that process. So I remember going to City Hall, and there was a mural on the wall, and it had a bar, as if a bar of ice— Black people on one side, white people on the other. Never the twain would meet. And I looked at that mural and said, I really want to bring those forces together. And so it has been my life's intention, it's been my life's effort, trying to make sure that people are brought together, that we have so much in common and so little in which we are different. And so it's important for us to work together. So from that small town in Marshall, Texas, near Dallas, Texas, then I went to a Lutheran school, Eden Theological Seminary in Webster Groves, Missouri. And that prepared me, understanding from that Lutheran background and Baptist background, bringing them together. It prepared me to understand that you work with all people and that there's a little good in everybody. I understand the theological concept that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But I want to always believe that, in spite of all being guilty and having done wrong, there's a little bit of goodness. If you appeal to that, people can be of good persuasion, people can be of good attitudinal force, and they will be a little better. So, if you are the kind of person that you ought to be, they might see something good in you and try to replicate that.

Susan Hall [01:08:45] What civil rights activities were you involved in before you arrived in Cleveland?

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [01:08:51] I was in seminary most of the time, so I came to Cleveland. This was my major involvement. When I came to Cleveland, this is when I really became involved, because I was a student for the most part. But prior to that, if you look on this table, you’ll see where I was in East St. Louis, Illinois. That was southern Illinois. It's totally different from Chicago, Illinois. And I arrived in that town. I’d been in Arkansas. I pastored a church in Arkansas and Texas, and out in Pickton, Texas. But when I came to East St. Louis, Illinois, that was a segregated town. It had an all-white City Council, it had a mayor, and so Black people did not participate. And if you'll see in one of my little columns here how I began a ministerial group, and we started to change things in East St. Louis, Illinois. And my committee of ministers challenged City Hall. We had the first— We elected the first African American councilperson for that city. Now it has an African American mayor. That's what the era has done across this country.

Susan Hall [01:10:01] Tell us more about your family life.

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [01:10:04] Well, I said I started out in Marshall, Texas, went to elementary school in Marshall, went to Bishop College, which was in Marshall, Texas. Then later on it moved to Dallas. It was 107 years in its entirety. Then they closed down because of some things that transpired. But after I graduated from Bishop, I went to Eden Theological Seminary in Webster Groves, Missouri. And it was there that— I had known my wife at Bishop College, and then we got married right after I graduated from the seminary. We started out with a little church, Mount Nebo Baptist Church, in Madison, Illinois. We stayed at Mount Nebo Baptist Church six and a half years, and then we left there and went to St. Paul Baptist Church in East St. Louis, Illinois, a little larger parish. I stayed there six and a half years, and then after that I came to this city and have been here 55 years. And so my wife and I had Theophilus James, Theodosia Jacqueline — a boy and a girl — and my dog Toppy and myself. Those are they- So we’ve been here ever since.

Christine Hickey [01:11:31] Was there anything else you would like to add? We might have- I was going to look back, you know, you talked about Lou Stokes little bit, Louis Stokes. Do you have a relationship with Louis Stokes after the election and everything? Because he was, he was a- He played large part in Cleveland for 30 years. So I didn't know what your relationship with him was during that time period. Not just in the late '60s or the early '70s, but beyond.

Emmitt Theophilus Caviness [01:12:00] I mentioned the fact that, okay, I mentioned the fact that Louis Stokes was an icon for this area, but there would be no Louis Stokes and all of the distinguished things that he accomplished without Carl Stokes. So I think the importance, the massive leadership that Carl Stokes afforded this city and this nation, really caused his brother to go forward. And he accomplished so much in his 30-year history. All over this town, I don't think there's a building that has any other name than Louis Stokes. You won’t find one that's of any consequence that is not Louis Stokes. Right down the street, we have the Veterans Center, and it's named after Louis Stokes. Carl Stokes, you'll find him at the water department, you'll find him on the streets and the like. But I think Louis Stokes accomplished so much, and Carl Stokes's life was cut short by an early transition. But Louis was able to do so many good things around the country. I had an opportunity to take a delegation of people from our church in this area up to Washington, D.C., and he took this whole group, and you’ll see in my office there's a picture with him standing at the foot of the Capitol. He took us in, gave us a royal reception. And his magnanimity, his pleasing personality, his, just his whole self caused him to be able to go forward without sometimes as much opposition as there would be for someone else. So I think his accomplishments are untold, and we have nothing but good omens for a great man who did such a great job.

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