Abstract

Reverend Charles Lucas, Jr., was born in Wheeling, West Virginia. He is the pastor of St. James African Methodist Episcopal Church. During the 1970s he was president of the Cleveland Branch of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP). This 2017 interview was collected as part of a yearlong, community-wide commemoration of the 50th anniversary of Carl Stokes' election as mayor of Cleveland.

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Interviewee

Lucas, Charles (interviewee)

Interviewer

Perry, Dee (interviewer); Hickey, Christine (participant)

Project

Stokes: Honoring the Past, Inspiring the Future

Date

4-24-2017

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

70 minutes

Transcript

Dee Perry [00:00:40] We are here at St. James African Methodist Episcopal Church on Monday, April 24, 2017, with the Reverend Charles Lucas Jr. And we are going to talk about the Stokes Commemoration Project. And it is Charles, C,H,A,R,L,E,S, Lucas, L,U,C,A,S. And Reverend Lucas, there's a story in your family about the man who was your great-great grandfather, Josiah Lucas, and how he obtained his freedom from slavery in 1852. And I'd like to begin by having you tell us that story.

Charles Lucas [00:00:44] It's quite a story. The plantation owner was named Lukas, L,U,K,A,S, and during that period of time, they often named slaves after them. So that's what he did. His great ability was to make parquet flooring. Now, that meant you didn't go to Walmart and buy it, but you had to cut the tree down, cure it, and make these small little blocks to make parquet. So the slave owner told him that if he would parquet the whole house, he would give him his freedom. It is thought that he didn't think he would be able to do it and it would take him lifetime to do it. But he didn't know how much Josiah wanted his freedom. And so he worked at it and he parqueted the whole house. And the slave master kept his word. Sometimes they didn't, but he did keep his word and he gave him his freedom papers. He wrote them out. What he did not know was that Josiah, my great grandfather, could also read and write. And so when he got to the edge of the plantation - Lukas was spelled L,U,K,A,S, and we have the papers that's been traveled through the generations - where he crossed the K out and put the C because he didn't want to keep all of the slave master's name. And so then he had already worked out an arrangement with little lady there. And they jumped the broom and got married. And he took her from - this was in Richmond, Virginia - and they walked from Richmond, Virginia, through town after town. He also was good at making leather goods. And so he would get to a town and he would make leather goods and make enough money to go to the next town. And they ended up in Cadiz, Ohio. And when he got to Cadiz, Ohio, they settled there and had two sons. And in addition to the craftsmanship that he had, he built a school there for colored kids. And they built it from the ground. He, along with his two sons, and one of the sons became the principal of the school. And of course they named it Paul Lawrence Dunbar, Dunbar School. And that's the story of Josiah.

Dee Perry [00:03:25] How was that history shared among your family members?

Charles Lucas [00:03:30] Well, because he realized that education was so very important, all of his descendants learned to read and write. That was just important. And also to keep the family tradition of knowing what went on from Richmond all the way up to little Cadiz, Ohio. And his two sons, they each had three children. And one of his sons, a very interesting story about him. He was William H. Lucas. He was the first elected state official in the state of Ohio. And he was elected in 1898 as the Treasurer of county there. And interestingly enough, he won because his opponents couldn't read and write as well and as he could. And he was Black. And so he became an office holder. And he kept that job from- He was reelected over and over again from the 1800s to 1941, and the first year that he was elected, because he was, at that time the word was colored, they made him have his office in the basement of the courthouse. And there we have some beautiful pictures of him with- He had beautiful penmanship because everything was written the parcel of the land and so forth. And there he was writing the parcels and taking care of all the sales of the county. And in later years, they wanted him to move upstairs, and he said he'd never move upstairs because he wanted them to always remember that he had to move his office in the basement to start with. So he kept that up. And then there's a picture in my office. One of his other sons became a barber, and he opened up the first owned colored store in Cadiz, Ohio, barber shop in 1923. And there's a little story with that that I think is both interesting and humorous. When he opened up the store, the barbershop, rather, the mayor came in and said, the sheriff wants you to know that you're to color- You're to cut white people's hair through the week and then coloreds on Saturday. Now, did you get that clear? He said, you're the only color, all through the week, white people and then colored on Saturday. That's an order from the sheriff. Well, the story goes that when the sheriff came in, my grandfather had this razor right at his neck. And he said, I understand that I'm only supposed to cut white people through the week and colored on Saturday. And the sheriff said, you can cut any time you want. So that became the first integrated barbershop in the little town of Cadiz, Ohio.

Dee Perry [00:06:41] That's a great story. I wanted to talk about the passion for education that ran through the family and led your father Charles Lucas Sr. to move from Cadiz to Cleveland.

Charles Lucas [00:07:00] Well, again, an interesting story we were living in- I was born actually in Wheeling, West Virginia, because even though he was the principal of school there, and my father- Now we're moved up to my father, Dunbar School, which was from the kindergarten all the way to 12th grade. But culoreds could not go to the hospital in Cadiz, Ohio. So I was born 30 miles away in Wheeling, West Virginia, because he could not go to the hospital there. Well, he made quite a record there in Cadiz, Ohio, and somebody in Cleveland had heard about him. And so they interviewed him in Cadiz and offered him the position of coming to Cleveland and being the first vice principal of a school. And so he came up to Cleveland for the final interview. And when he got off at the bus station down on Chester Avenue, there was another gentleman there, and he asked him for directions to the Board of Education. And this gentleman asked him, why was he interested in going to the Board of Education. And my dad told him the story, and he said, oh. And they had little conversation. And the man's name was Nathaniel Christopher, who happened to be the president of the NAACP. And so as they talked, he said, you know, how much are they going to pay you at the school system? And now you remember this in the '40s. He said, $5,000. He said, we can pay you $7,000 if you'll come and head the NAACP. So that's how that occurred. So my dad became the head of NAACP, a job that he held for the next nine years. And during that particular time, he was very instrumental in a number of the legislative things in the state and both in the city that had to do with civil rights and equal representation for Blacks at that time. So that's how we got to Cleveland. Now, interestingly enough, when you talk about education, my mother was also a teacher. In fact, when my father graduated from Wilberforce, at that time, they had what's known as the Colored Teacher's Manual. And so he got job in Sedalia, Missouri. That's where my mother was teaching, and they taught together. They got married, and then he came back to head up Dunbar School. So it was very, very- I had a wealth of blessings to have father and mother, both with advanced degrees. And all of my mother's sisters were teachers. So we had education. And they all married teachers. Everybody married a teacher. So education was an early part of my life and that I respected it so much. And naturally, when you are in that kind of situation, your friends and your mother's friends, your father's friends, were all pushing for education at that time. So that's my background as far as that goes.

Dee Perry [00:10:11] And I wanted to talk a little bit more about the NAACP at that point, because I'm curious. Along with the education piece, there was also a community activist piece in the family. What did your father, and perhaps your mother too, to you or show you about the importance of what the NAACP was doing?

Charles Lucas [00:10:37] Well, I had first a very initial situation that I'll never forget as long as I live. As soon as my father got involved in the NAACP at that time, often here in Cleveland, you see a- They run it lot of times about what Euclid Avenue looked like with the bustling of the shoppers and so forth. And those pictures, many of them, were taken in the '50s. And people don't realize that even in the '50s in Cleveland, Ohio, that Blacks could not try on clothes in the stores downtown. Black women could not try on hats and men could not try on suits. And right on the corner of Ninth and Euclid at that time was huge. It was a beautiful building. Bond Clothes. And so my father and number of people in NAACP decided to have a protest march down Euclid Avenue to protest that Blacks could not try on clothes in the stores. Women could not- Black women could not try on hats. And so we had quite a march, and I was maybe, I guess about 10 by that time. And they have a little sign - I have picture of me - they gave me little sign. And on my sign it said, Jim Crow must go. I had no idea who Jim Crow was, but I was carrying this sign down Euclid Avenue. Well, that night, about 2 o'clock, there was a crash in the windows of our home. And my father ran and grabbed me. And then we could see out on the front lawn was a cross where the Klan had- The Cleveland Klan had burned cross on our front lawn. And the- I'll never- I can still hear the glass breaking. And you know how many years ago that was. And then I watch this cross burning in our front yard. Well, there was an initial concern about the neighbors and so forth. And when we finally went outside, because my father called the police - this was like 3 o'clock in the morning - the police didn't get there till 8 o'clock the next morning. And so as soon as we felt it was safe, we went out and we went out, the neighbors started coming and coming and coming, and they were all in support of what was going on. And they said, we're going to start watching their house more and so forth. But that was an early episode, being in NAACP. My father then, as far as employment was concerned, and when you look in the records of the State House, you'll see that the first Fair Employment Practices Commission, he was behind that. And that was to break the barrier of places where Blacks could not get jobs. And so I was brought up with civil rights, a spoon of civil rights every day. Now, what happened was, I don't have brothers and sisters, and so my parents, because my mother taught, she was off on the weekends. Every weekend would either go with my mother or go with my father. And so when I went with my father, because he was involved in all of the civil rights things that were going on, the community stuff, the community activists, the political and so forth, he would tell me, he said, now if you just be quiet and sit in the corner, they'll forget you're there and you can hear all what's going on. And he gave me little book. He said, anything you don't understand, just write it in the book. And then when we get in the car, I'll explain to you what it is or name that you are hearing for the first time. And so was I then exposed to some of the early people who were in Council like Charlie Carr and Claybourne George and John Kellogg. These were the names that were really popular in those days. And the judges like Augustus Parker and Perry B. Jackson and so forth. I would go to all these meetings with my dad because they met on Saturdays, and I would listen to what was going on. Then I would ask him a question or we'd get in the car. So it started off, and the reason I have been involved in it in an odd way, as a young person, I was hearing all this, and people like Carl Stokes and Lou Stokes and George Forbes and all of them, they were on the other end just coming along. And then of course, when I got older, then was fitting in with them. And sometimes when I'm with people like George Forbes and so forth, they will tell me, they will say stories to me, but it wasn't me, it was my dad. And so they just kind of brought me along with it as the years would go on. And they'd say, Charlie, you remember the time we did such and such and such thing? And just said, oh, yes, I remember, but that was my dad and not me.

Dee Perry [00:15:36] On that note, Louis Stokes became part of the NAACP in the early 1950s, and by 1958 he was chairing the group's legal redress committee. I want to have you talk a little bit about the purpose of that committee. And Louis Stokes became part of the NAACP in the early 1950s, and by 1958, he was chairing the group's legal redress committee. And I wanted to have you talk about the purpose of that committee, what it would have been doing.

Charles Lucas [00:16:14] Well, it did several things. Number one, unfortunately, many of the Black residents did not have funds for legal representation for various situations, both cases and so forth. So the committee was set up so that they would be able to provide free service for people who needed legal assistance, especially people who were trying to get a job and they couldn't get a job, or they were at a job and they were fired. And we felt they were fired due to their color or not, because of their job performance. And so the legal redress committee was set up, and Louis Stokes did a good job. In fact, during that era, most of the young Black lawyers, that's the first thing they did, was signed up with the legal redress committee, and they got their practice started that way. So that was basically that era. And then, you know, Louis was a tremendously calm type person, as far as he could jump with it when you had to. But he was often called upon just to talk to people, and he would go to, let's say, an employer that there was some problems, and they would talk it out, and the person would get the job or get the job back or so forth.

Dee Perry [00:17:40] Do you recall the first time you met Lou and or Carl Stokes?

Charles Lucas [00:17:45] Well, I met both of them as a younger person because they both were around and so forth. But I really got to know him. He and my father were very disturbed that there was no Black representation in Congress from Ohio. And so Charlie Vanik was the congressman and it was the old 21st congressional district at that time. The districts have since been redistributed. And so he and my father and Carl Character. And they filed the lawsuit, the federal lawsuit to create the district so that there would be a Black representative from this area. So I was tagging along with my dad through this, and that's when I first met Lou.

Dee Perry [00:18:44] And that case was Lucas versus Rhodes, the redistricting, went all the way to the Supreme Court. Before we go further into that, though, I wanted to also mention that in the early to mid-'60s, the NAACP was protesting de facto segregation in the Cleveland public school system. And I'm curious what your memories are of going through that system.

Charles Lucas [00:19:14] Well, you really hit the jackpot, because in 1970, I was very active with the NAACP, naturally because of my dad. And I was the third vice president of the NACP. The president was Russell Adrian. And Russell Adrian received position of the legal counsel for the old CTS, the forerunner of RTA. But they told him that he could not be the president of the NAACP and be the counsel for CTS. So that meant that the first vice president would become the president. Well, interestingly enough, the first vice president was a Catholic priest, a white Catholic priest. And when the word went out that same day that he was going to be the president of NAACP, the they moved him from Cleveland to New Orleans. So that left him out. The second vice president was an employee at the Cleveland library. And they told her, if you take the job, you'll lose your job here. So I was the third vice president. I became the NAACP president. And so historically, when they talk about me being the youngest president of the United States of the NAACP, it was due to that link that it went down, down, down to me. And then when I had to run on my own the next year, and I won handily, but many people said, we thought we were voting for your father. But the reason I'm mentioning that is it became on my plate the de facto segregation case. And interestingly enough, the site that we're on today here at 8401 Cedar, there used to be building next to this building. It was formerly a funeral home, Angeles Funeral Home. The church bought that and rented it to the NAACP. And that was NAACP office on this very site. And so on this site, I became the youngest president of the NAACP. And on my desk immediately was whether to file the suit against the Board of Education. At that time, there were 98 members of the board of NAACP. At that time we had huge board. And so half of the board was for filing the suit, and half of the board was not for filing the suit. And so Roy Wilkins was the national director of NAACP at that time. And so after- And I'm presiding, and after much talk back and forth, back and forth, they said, I think you should go to New York and ask Roy Wilkins his opinion and bring it back. And we want to hear what Roy Wilkins has to say. Well, I knew in the back of my mind that the group that was asking already knew the answer because it was the older group on the board. And they were, of course, close to Roy Wilkins. So Jim Stallings, who was the president of the branch at that time, I mean, the director of the branch at that time, we went to New York and We went to New York. We had an appointment at 11 o'clock to see Roy Wilkins. Now, there's another side of this. But that was a big deal that we were going to see Roy Wilkins, his national leader and so forth. So we got there. The secretary said he regretted that he was running late today, but as soon as he finished his appointment, we could go in. So we went in, went in at 12 o'clock, and he said, oh, my goodness. He said, you know one thing about it. always eat exactly at 12 o'clock. Won't you come with me? And we would go out and I always have Chinese on Thursday. It had to be Thursday. So we went to this restaurant, everybody knew him, and people were coming over and we were meeting and so we started talking. He said, guys, forgive me, but I never talk business over lunch. I just never talk business over lunch. So we had this lunch and then all of sudden he looked at his watch and he said, I'm to meet with the governor of New York. I must go right- Fellas, it was so good meeting you, and left. And it took us a while - to show you how we were green at that time - it took us a while before a bell rang in our head that he was not going to say anything. It was going to be a Cleveland decision and not his. So we came back to the meeting and they said, well, what did Roy say? And we told the story, and they said he didn't say anything. So he had the vote and they voted then to file the suit. However, this is something that has always troubled me all of these years. I asked the board if they would permit me-

Unknown speaker [00:24:21] Need to stop. Had a battery die. 

Christine Hickey [00:24:28] So can we start with-

Dee Perry [00:24:29] Let's just pick it up at where Roy Wilkins is talking about going to lunch.

Charles Lucas [00:24:40] Oh, just going to lunch.

Dee Perry [00:24:42] Yeah, yeah. Start from the part where he's suggesting that he has to have lunch.

Charles Lucas [00:24:48] Right, right. Okay. All right. And so we finally go into Roy Wilkins' office and he said, oh, my goodness, it's 12 o'clock. And I always eat, I always have lunch at exactly 12:00 clock, and it's Thursday, and I always have Chinese on Thursday. So down the stairs we went, popped in the cab, you know how New York is. And we went to restaurant and when we started to our case of what was going on in Cleveland, he said, oh, wait minute, that's one thing, I never talk business over lunch. And so we had the lunch, and when we got finished with the lunch, we were ready to tell our story again. And he looked at his watch and he said, I'm supposed to meet the governor of New York. He said, fellas, it's been nice meeting you. Have a good trip back. And that was it. So we came back, and of course, the board wanted to know, what did Roy Wilkins say? And we said he didn't say anything at all. He left it up to the Cleveland Branch to decide. So we got ready to vote, and they were ready to vote to do it. And I asked if I could have one more shot with the board of education. Paul Briggs was the superintendent of schools at that time. And we had a plan of what could happen in Cleveland. And we talked about specialty schools where we'd have school where there was nursing. We talked about aviation, an aviation high school. We laid all of these things out, because what was happening during that period of time, they were building schools on top of schools, sometimes blocks away, to keep Blacks all in one place, whites all the way in one place. So the schools were not integrated. But that wasn't the main problem. The main problem was that the new books and the new things were going to the west side, and the east side was getting the leftovers from the- It was pitiful. The east side was getting books that were marked and torn, and the west side was getting brand-new, fresh books. And the teachers, the good teachers, were on one side, Black teachers on the other side. So, anyway, I said, let me have one more shot. But the reason I wanted to mention that the exact plan which is now 30 years later or more, that we presented to them way back then, is what they have now. John Hay, which was straight up here, is now a school where they just train you for going into medicine and so forth. They built the Aviation High School after that, which unfortunately is not in use now. I belong to a group right now that's trying to get the aviation school open and running again, because that was a great way for young people of, men and women, boys and girls, to go into that field. And also a student have choice to go wherever they want to go. And after all of that and busing and all of that, they came back and did the same thing. Anyway, we went to them, and at that time, Paul Briggs said to us, our committee, meet me at the Union Club and we'll talk it out. Well, we had a big problem with that because here was the Union Club, which is right downtown at 12th and Euclid, but it was segregated at that time, the '70s. It was not until Nolan Elderson, who was the president of the college there, he was the first Black that belonged to the Union Club. And we said, well, we fussed lot about going in. I convinced him. I said, this is really important because I don't want bussing personally. I could see where a lot of problems would occur, but if we have to do it, we're going to do it. So we went down and Paul Briggs was there and Frank Joseph and all of the players at that time from the white community. And I presented- We presented our plan again, and when we finished, they said, well, we'll take it up at our board meeting today. So we went over - at that time the board of education was there at 6th and Rockwell - and we went, and the meeting went on and on and on and on. So we were waiting for them to make the presentation, waiting for them to make the presentation. And so finally, the president of the board said to Paul Briggs, is there anything else? And Paul Briggs said, nothing at all. And so they closed the meeting, and we went over and filed the lawsuit. So I'm really involved in that because I was the president that filed the lawsuit that created the separation of schools.

Dee Perry [00:29:47] I want to go back few few years again to that 1968 case, the Lucas versus Rhodes, which set up, set in motion the ability for Louis Stokes to become Ohio's first Black congressman. But the Lucas who was your father, Charles Lucas Sr., also had role beyond his name on the lawsuit.

Charles Lucas [00:30:19] That's what I wanted to read to you. As you know, The Gentleman from Ohio, the Louis Stokes book that came out this year, on page 92, I want to read you a couple paragraphs. Walker, who coincidentally belonged to this church, who was the editor of the Call and Post, said - Walker was the owner and editor in chief of the Call and Post. If there was a kingmaker in Cleveland's Black community, W. O. Walker was it. But first I had to discuss it with Jay and the children. This is Louis Stokes trying to make up his mind about running. It was still Sunday morning, so everybody was at home. We all sat in the living room. We talked it over. And she said, honey, will support you in whatever you want to do, and if you need me, I'll be there. With that - this is Louis Stokes speaking - I went to see W. O. Walker. W. O. Walker, known in the community simply as W. O., was at home. We sat together as I described what I wanted to do and asked him for his suggestion. W. O. gave it some thought. He said, I'll support you, he said, but we also have to have somebody on the Republican side who can take care of the community in the event something untoward happens to you. I have to have a Republican to support you if you go down for some reason. And that person would be Charlie Lucas. Great, I said - this is Lou Stokes speaking - Charlie would be an excellent candidate to have on the other side. Lou speaking: I wasn't kidding. Charlie Lucas has served the community well. He has been head of the NAACP earlier. He's been a school principal. He's been a member of the state board of education. He was a leader in the fight for fair housing. Charlie is one of the best speakers I've ever heard. He's articulate, he's knowledgeable, always well prepared, a man of great dignity, highly respected. Like me, he hasn't run for this kind of office, but he could run and be accepted. Charlie had been our plaintiff in Lucas versus Rhodes. And now, according to W. O., anyway, I was going to serve my opponent. And one thing, we were going to be gentlemen together. So I think that tells the whole story of that.

Dee Perry [00:32:55] I'm curious what your father's reaction was to being the candidate who was opposing Louis Stokes.

Charles Lucas [00:33:05] Well, they realized that they wanted to make sure that a Black was going to be elected on either side. And you see what happened in that primary, 18 people ran against Lou. Not against, but he ran. And these were the big names at that time. George Forbes, Councilman white, all of them. They were all of them big political names. And Lou was a novice. He was coming along. So there was great possibility that he was not going to win. Now, interestingly enough, in the race, he and my dad, he got 12,000 votes and my dad got 7,000 votes. So, see, it could have gone either way.

Dee Perry [00:33:52] Was your father disappointed that he didn't win or was he a supporter?

Charles Lucas [00:33:57] No, not really. Because he was in it just in case. And he had- My father was a businessman by that time. He was long gone from NAACP, and he was doing very well. And he realized that they wanted to make sure that a Black was elected. So he ran that way. And he and Lou, they were friends all the way through the race. And after that, he would often say to me, you know, anything your dad ever wants. And the only thing, as you recall, and then my father died in 1989. And after that, Lou used to treat me the same way you treat my dad. And we had lot of relationship after that. And he would, when we ever had few moments, he would talk about- He called it the gentleman's race. And that's why my dad wasn't upset at all. My mother was a little bit, you know, the women are. She's a little afraid, but other than that-

Dee Perry [00:35:04] I was just thinking about the school busing.

Charles Lucas [00:35:10] Can we pause one second? Was she up there? Is she here?

Christine Hickey [00:35:16] She's not in the room yet. She's coming down. 

Charles Lucas [00:35:19] Okay.

Christine Hickey [00:35:20] I'll just hold her until you finish.

Charles Lucas [00:35:21] Okay. All right, go ahead then. Thank you.

Dee Perry [00:35:25] What I was going to ask is the school busing story that you told little bit earlier. Lou Stokes had been in Congress about six years by that point. So was he involved at all in the deliberations that were going back and forth about filing the lawsuit or what unfolded after that?

Charles Lucas [00:35:52] He was, to degree, but he was very supportive of our efforts and he had trust in what was going on. But he too, would have liked not to have seen the lawsuit. But when we were up against the kind of wall we were up against, he was supportive.

Dee Perry [00:36:18] And you said that you didn't want to see busing happened. So as it unfolded over the course of decades, it turned out, what are your thoughts about how it impacted the Cleveland public schools?

Charles Lucas [00:36:33] Well, I knew it would impact, just like it did. Number one, you had an exodus of hundreds of white students going into private schools or new- That was even before charter schools, but they had friendship schools and so forth. I knew that a number of the good teachers were going to lose them all around because some of them didn't want to come into the community. And also I was very delighted that there was minimum of violence. My experience with busing had been quite severe. When I was at Boston University- In fact, the first case of busing was in Boston, Massachusetts, and they closed all the schools. The head of the education at that time was a lady named Louise Day Hicks. And so they closed all the schools. And most of the white students found their way to private institutions and so forth, but the Black students were just in the streets. And so the churches went together and opened up Freedom Schools, and I became the principal of Freedom School there in Boston. That's when they were breaking windows and kids were injured and so forth. So I'd seen busing in the raw, and I didn't want to see it here in Cleveland. But thankfully, there was minimal violence. I wouldn't say violence, but I would say disruptive things that happened.

Dee Perry [00:38:13] At what point did you enter the ministry or decide that was going to be path for you?

Charles Lucas [00:38:21] That went way back to this church again. I grew up in this church. My family joined here when we first came to Cleveland. And I was on my way to a role, I thought, in politics. That's what was I wanted to do. But sitting on the third row of that pew over there, I felt the urge and the presence of the voice of God to go into the ministry. I was in my first year of college at that time. And there's side story about that. I used to tease them that they should put a plaque on that where God called me, because when I went to school, I came back. I never pastored here. pastored other churches. But. So when I came back to pastor, there's now a plaque over there on that pew where the Lord called me to preach. So I started off from this church and then went on. I pastored St. Paul on the west side, Greater Avery on Wade Park. And then in our church, as you know, we're moved around by bishops, they gave me the opportunity to pastor the largest church in the Midwest. First Church, Kansas City. So I was there for nine years. And then in 1989, my father died. I came back to Cleveland. I pastored Christ Our Redeemer in Cleveland Heights. And then 15 years ago, I was walking in my house and collapsed. They took me over to University Hospital and found a large tumor on my spine. So they told me that if they left it on, I would be in nursing home the rest of my life. But if they took it off, I'd be in wheelchair. So I retired. And four years ago - I would visit here from time to time - and four years ago, I was visiting, and the minister who had just been assigned, brand-new pastor, he came over and asked me, he said, I've got to go in the hospital for two weeks. Would you fill in for me till I get back? I said I'd be delighted to do that. Unfortunately, he stayed in the hospital four months and he died. Well, I've been here four months. So the congregation said, well, why don't you stay? Well, I was already retired. And in my church, when you retire, you have to just serve at the pleasure of the bishop. So the next year, they asked if I'd stay another year. The next year, they asked if I'd stay the next year. So four times, so I've been here. So I don't know. This might be my last. So I ended up pastoring this church. So it's been a great joy. Forty-nine years I've been in the ministry.

Dee Perry [00:41:09] I wanted- We've been talking about the family connection with Louis Stokes, but I wanted to back up and talk about Carl. When did you- Did you become aware of him at the same time as Louis? Was he part of NAACP activities?

Charles Lucas [00:41:29] Yes and no. Lou was much more active than Carl at that time. But interestingly enough, when I really got to know Carl Stokes, they lived on Larchmere, and we lived on Cormere, and we were two blocks away. And our wives, Shirley, his wife, and my wife Vicki, became wonderful friends. And our houses were almost exactly behind each other, separated by a street, but everybody knew everybody. So we had almost a path from my house over to Carl's house and Carl's house over to my house. And so we really became closer via our wives and our families. And so that's when I really became part of his group of supporters. So, naturally, when he decided to run for mayor, we were very active in the campaign. And many of the activities that were going on at that time, I was part of it. I was at that time pastoring on the west side. And so it was very interesting because I brought him over to St. Paul Church. St. Paul Church sits on the corner of West 130th and Liberty. And when I was there during those years, 130th, on the right side, was nothing but whites. They lived on the right, and the Blacks all lived on the left. It was terrible. But the church- The one thing that was Black on the right side was our church. And so when it was announced that Carl Stokes was coming out to do a campaign rally, they threw dead squirrels and they marked up my windows and all of that. But the night that he came the for the speech, it was a sight to behold. Not only was the church just packed, but we opened up the windows and the people were outside. There must have been a good two or three hundred people just outside, all around, for Carl to come and speak. And of course, he arrived, and Carl was great showman. And he arrived, and he was hugging and kissing his way through, and he came up and he spoke that night at the church. And of course, we made a big endorsement of him running and so forth. So that is- I have many fond memories of the time that he was in office, because I would- I did not serve in his cabinet because I was pastoring at that time, but he often called upon me for various things that were going on. And then when he died some years later, they had two funerals. They had a funeral at city hall in the morning, and they had a funeral in the afternoon in the auditorium across the street. And I was asked to do the eulogy for Carl at city hall. And Jesse Jackson did the one across the street. So it was a great honor for me. Sad honor, but it was great honor for me to preach his funeral at city hall where he served as the first Black mayor.

Dee Perry [00:44:58] The speech that you're describing at the church on the west side, was that during the 1967-

Charles Lucas [00:45:05] Yeah, his first camp- Yes, campaign. Yeah.

Dee Perry [00:45:06] He actually ran in 1965-

Charles Lucas [00:45:10] Right.

Dee Perry [00:45:11] As well. Were you-

Charles Lucas [00:45:12] No, no, was not. I was- In fact, I was still in school. I came back in 1966 and in fact that's when I got married. And I keep up with that very, very quickly.

Dee Perry [00:45:30] 1966 reminds me that that's the year of the Hough riots. Was there NAACP involvement? Were the Stokes brothers at all involved in helping to make things better?

Charles Lucas [00:45:53] Well, think we all were. I had just gotten back to Cleveland, and I grew up on East Boulevard and my parents still live there. And so when the word went out, we, as I mentioned, lived on Cormere, which right at Shaker Square, you know, that's where our house was. And so when the word went out that the riots had started, I immediately jumped in the car and drove over to my parents house because they are on the edge of Hough there at East Boulevard and Superior, across from the park. And by the time I got there - this was in pre-cellphone days, people had beepers and stuff like that - there was a call for all the ministers to come to Lane Church, which is down at 46th and Cedar - Enzo Montgomery was the pastor at that time - for us to get in jeeps and go through the community and talk people into going home. Every time you'd see crowd of people, you go up and of course Hough was burning at that time. So there I was in one of those jeeps with the police. I mean the army. And so we worked all through the night because not only- The Hough riots could have gone whole different way if we had not immediately interceded. I think they would have burned everything down, and I think even lives would have been lost. So Lou and Carl, they were all in. Everybody was out during that time. Of course, Carl was mayor by the time the next riot, the Glenville riot, he was the mayor at that time and that's when he made that fateful decision. And you know, that was something that stuck on him the rest of his life as far as when he ordered white policemen out of Glenville and only Black policemen to go in. And he- I can't speak for him, but I think when he looked back on that, it was good decision for saving white lives because it was that raw. But on the other hand the police department felt they all should have been able to go in.

Dee Perry [00:48:20] Did you see or read or have conversations about shift in attitude towards Carl Stokes after the Glenville riots?

Charles Lucas [00:48:31] Oh, yes, and I think that was one of the reasons he didn't run again. There were a number of reasons, but I think- Because the police department had totally turned on him, and the community after the riots, there were different groups that were started to help rebuild Hough, number one, which they did an excellent job. They started some manufacturing firms. One was Accurate Fabricating Company and another was [inaudible]. So they did number of businesses up and down Hough, trying to encourage both Black entrepreneurship. I think Paint Masters was another, Black paint company, and so forth. So Carl was involved naturally in all of that- But I think the- After the riots and after some of the divisions that took place, I think that was some of the reasons that he decided not to run again. And the night, it was interestingly, the night that he made that decision, my father- There's little side to it, but my father had key to our house and because of the grandchildren, he was there all the time. You know, he'd come home, my dad was there, my mother was there. And so again, this is before beepers and all that, we got a call to come over to Carl's house right away. And my dad said, let's go. And I said, I can't go because my kids were at home. I said, they were little, the kids. I said, you go ahead. And so Dad sprinted across the back of the house and went over. When he came back, his face was almost ashen. And he said, wow, that was some meeting. He said- Carl Stokes was there. I think he mentioned George Forbes, Arnold Pinkney, so forth. Said Carl announced to us that he was not going to run. And it was quite a shock to the community. But then, of course, Arnold then ran that year and unfortunately was not elected.

Dee Perry [00:50:48] You mentioned the meeting that took place about Carl not running. And so out of that meeting, was it decided, did your father say that it was decided at that meeting that Arnold would be the next candidate or-

Charles Lucas [00:51:06] It wasn't quite that night, but it was very, you know, we knew some- We had to put somebody. Don't forget, Arnold had run the campaign, had run both Lou's campaign as well as Carl's campaign. He had very a vibrant insurance business at that time, in fact, still, still going on. And there were several people that wanted to do it in the mix, but they felt that Arnold had the best public name and he knew the roots of Cleveland and also the precincts and precinct committee people, because, as you know, elected office, if you know precinct committee people and ward leaders and so forth, you got a heads up to some of it. And so that his decision was then made that he would be the candidate that year.

Dee Perry [00:52:02] I wanted to go back to Louis Stokes for bit because he continued in Congress for 30 years, even though it wouldn't have been his first choice to be in that position. Did you, after, or as his tenure continued, have interactions with Louis Stokes as well?

Charles Lucas [00:52:31] I don't want to boast, but I think have at least 20, if not more, citations from Lou Stokes during the time he was in office for various things that we were working in together. One of them was the Council for Economic Opportunities. He loved Head Start, and it was beautiful during that time because, so did Voinovich. And so between Lou and Congress on one end and Voinovich on the other end. That's why so many new installations were built during his time. And one of them was named after him out on Harvard. And then, of course, there's an interesting building in East Cleveland at the Windermere Station, which became the Lou Stokes Station, and the idea there is that we built the Head Start- It's just a novel building. It's won awards. The architecture is beautiful. But the idea is that a mother could, or a father working, they could drop the kids off and get on the rapid. You know, the transportation was right there. But that station is named Lou Stokes. Well, afterward, we named the Head Start building the George Forbes Building. And the night that we dedicated the George Forbes Building, Lou was still living at that time, and Lou was on the program, and he had a beautiful humor. He said to George, he said, now, George, I know you're going to come someday and just walk around your building, the George Forbes Building. But when you get tired of that, just step across the street and walk through the Louis Stokes Building. So everyone got a big smile out of that. But as far as the- I was also on the board at Case for minority hiring and minority building. And he was a big help as far as he's done things he did for university. I'm sure you remember him, what he did for the schools, the local schools, Cuyahoga as well as Cleveland State and so forth. He wrote many a check, and especially after he became the head of the Appropriations Committee. So we stayed in touch, and we were often on programs together, we served on committees together. And he was just fine man.

Dee Perry [00:55:12] I agree. When you-

Charles Lucas [00:55:15] There's a- This is way off subject in its own way, but at his funeral, at Lou Stokes's funeral at Olivet, there was quite a big, big fanfare. And all of a sudden, who arrived but the Vice President of the United States. And I was sitting near the front, right near the front, and he came in and he greeted the family and so forth. Of course, they brought him up for remarks. And so after the service was over, the Secret Service made pathway for him to come. And right when he got about ten feet from me, he said, Oh! And he ran over and he hugged me, and we hugged each other. He was so glad to see and did the, you know, one thing in Washington, when you do the pat. You know, the Washington pat? He gave me the Washington pat and went off. So my driver said, I didn't know you knew the Vice President. I said, I don't. That's the first time I've ever seen him in my life. Because everybody all around was then coming up to me and saying, oh, you know, the Vice President. So thought, well, Lou probably got chuckle from up in heaven that that happened to me at his funeral. [laughs] So I wrote him a letter. I wrote the Vice President a letter and told him at that time, that was when he was deciding whether he was going to run or not going to run. And I didn't write him a letter to run or not, but said, he was just so glad to see you, and at the funeral and so forth. So he sent me response and just signed it Joe. [laughs] So I'm on terms with the former Vice President of the United States.

Dee Perry [00:57:09] Nice. When you think about all the things that you just described from Louis Stokes and all that Carl accomplished in the four years of his being mayor of Cleveland, what do you think is the best legacy? What do you think was the most, are some of the most important qualities they passed along?

Charles Lucas [00:57:38] Because we unfortunately remain in many parts a divided country, in many parts, however, there's been some great doors that have been opened up where some of these little kids running around here and Head Start, they can say, you know, I'd like to be the mayor of the city of Cleveland. I'd like to be Congressman. I'd like to be President of the United States. So when you open those kind of political doors, because there was a time in my generation where if you said to somebody, there's going to be Black president of the United States. Oh, not- It's going to be the year 3000 something, you know. Now that opened up. So you have people like Carl Stokes who opened up the mayor's office. And so each time a door is opened, in education, doors open in the business community- As you know, last year there was such a big fanfare about finding out there was some Black lady that was running the controls for the spaceship that was never brought out because you wouldn't immediately think of that. You would think of all white operators doing something. So when anything has opened up, you give hope for somebody along the line to say, well, I can do that, I can be that. And that's what they did. Both Carl and Lou.

Dee Perry [00:59:19] What do you think are some organizations or activities that you'd suggest to young people today that would nurture that kind of leadership and commitment to the community?

Charles Lucas [01:00:32] Well, naturally, due to my profession, I would start with the church. Because the church has been always at the forefront of whatever's going on. We see more people to actually talk to. Now, LeBron sees more people in the stands and someone sees more people over at the ballpark, but we see more people to talk to than any institution, that is, the church, synagogue, temple, the mosque, wherever. And still in many cases it's a place where you have someone who's able to give so-called a discourse and people listen to. Some churches, like the Unitarian Church, have always been proud that they have their service so that the there's service first, then there's discussion, and that's when the church ends after discussion. So we are in the position to be influential, to be supportive, and so that's the church. Then there are organizations like the NAACP, the Urban League. On our side we have buildings like Karamu, which is not far from here, Friendly Inn- There are number of places where you can go and be a part of constructive development and leadership.

Dee Perry [01:01:02] And what do you think are the most important issues that are confronting our current and future leaders?

Charles Lucas [01:01:10] Well, first of all, I think there should be a realization of the real America. When I started in the ministry, every wedding that I presided, and by the way, I've presided over 381 weddings in my career. But every wedding that I presided over, there were bridesmaids, groomsmen, all Black. As the years have gone on, you see Black and white. Years have gone, Black, white, Hispanic and so forth, Chinese, Asian. You know, we are more of mixed culture than we are admitting. And think some of the overt racism that you talk about is with smaller group than people realize, because families are now very integrated. You can go pew by pew in this church and every other pew, the son is married to white or the daughter is married to an Asian or somebody's this or somebody's that. I mean, we have become very mixed culture. And in that, I think we can highlight that more than try to press it down. I only look at Fox TV just to see what they're saying. But so much that you hear divisions aren't really there. And then some divisions are still very real, but there's some people. When I went to- A little side thing, when I went to the University of Pittsburgh in 1959, my roommate was Mike Ditka, and he was from little town in Pennsylvania. And so we all were getting together the first evenings, and it was little humor. He said, I want everybody to come up and rub on Lucas hand to see that it doesn't come off. Because he was laughing because so many of them said they'd never seen a Black person before. Because in their community, they come from all-white communities. We have very rare now all-white communities or people have been to the Army. Now, early on, the Army was segregated. You had the Black troops and the white troops. Now you have everybody together. The other funny thing was, right when I went to the University of Pittsburgh, they passed a law that the universities, on your application, they could not ask for race anymore. But they asked for a picture. And of course, I was very amused because you have some Black people that are white as snow. They don't know who they are. [laughs] But you went through all of that. But all of that is different now. Getting me, in fact, even getting a Black roommate, having a Black roommate. At that time, they asked the person, would you mind having a Black roommate? That was in the '50s, '60s. It wasn't until public accommodation laws that that changed. So, see, when you see all that, in my view, in my vision at my age now, and I hear people still talking that old talk about, you know, segregation and separate. I said, you can't separate these people. Now they're all together. You know, there's a program going to come on, white man talking about, you know, he wants to be, he wants to have nothing but white people around him. He doesn't know who's around him, number one. And number two is America isn't built that way. You had years ago, and from your history, you remember a man named Marcus Garvey who was able to sell to America, to give him enough money to have enough ships to ship all the Black people back to Africa. And you have people now, you have people on the fringe talking about, what can we do to get rid of all the Black people? Oh, where are you going to send them? You don't have not enough ships. It's crazy. So I know sometimes I'm- They tell me in my liberal thinking, but if we think real, how much could change in America if we were just shipped around. We're in like with this business with Trump. Is Trump a racist" What is he? You know, it's a rough time and I'm still in the middle of it.

Dee Perry [01:06:05] We're glad you are. Thank you so much.

Christine Hickey [01:06:09] We talked about Carl and you supported him during his mayor race, but we didn't really talk about what your thoughts are or where you were or take us back to that night when he won that mayor race. I mean, I don't know if you felt it was- If it was surprise to you, but take us back to that night, what it was like for him to become the first Black man.

Charles Lucas [01:06:46] Yeah, well, there's a little, not interlude, but a little thought before then when Carl was running against Seth Taft. And Seth Taft was a fine man. He just died last year, believe the year before, but he died recently. But he had been very active in the Black community. He and his wife served on various boards and so forth and just a decent guy. So that's when- And unfortunately still you have the east side and the west side, the west side, all white as far as the voting goes. And so running against him or running against him either way, if you want to talk about Carl against him or Seth against Carl, if you were just stepping aside, that would have been very hard choice because both of them were just fine people. So you had pockets of voters in various sections that were having hard decision to say, well, I'm just going to vote for Carl because he'll be the first Black mayor. And so that was in the mix. So they brought Martin Luther King in a number of times and he was able to galvanize some things. That was another little thing about Martin Luther King. During that period of time, no hotel in Cleveland would house Martin Luther King. Each of them had gone and gotten a police citation that if Martin Luther King was in the hotel, he was putting in danger the rest of the guests because there were threats. You know, whenever Martin Luther King would come, they were going to blow it up or they were going to do something. And so there used to be the Lancers restaurant over on Carnegie. It burned. It's now down on 20 something and Superior. But anyway, Fleet and Beulah Slaughter owned the Lancer. They also owned some apartment buildings right over here on 80th. And so they cleared out an apartment and fixed it up very nicely so that Martin Luther King would have place to stay. This is in Cleveland, Ohio. He couldn't stay anywhere else, so they brought him in. He came in. I'm saying he came in at least five times, but he came in little bit more, and that got lot of boost in the community. And, you know, it was very close race, and he won just by a few votes, not a few, but it was close, so we were just ecstatic. And the party went on all night long. And he was beside himself, of course. Carl, he was just an interesting fellow in the sense of, as you know, he went from here to being newscaster, and then he went to being an ambassador, and then he came back and served as judge, you know, so he was quite character.

Dee Perry [01:10:03] I think we've covered the work waterfront.

Charles Lucas [01:10:04] And more. And more than you wanted.

Dee Perry [01:10:07] No, no, it was all- Is there- Is there anything else that you can think of that you wanted to say that we didn't touch on?

Charles Lucas [01:10:17] No, nothing I think of.

Dee Perry [01:10:18] All right. And we are, we are good.

Charles Lucas [01:10:21] All right.

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