Abstract
Joan Campbell, born in Youngstown in 1931, is an ordained pastor, who has committed her life to service and activism working with important leaders such as Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King Jr. She worked to organize voters for Carl Stokes’ mayoral campaign. This 2017 interview was collected as part of a yearlong, community-wide commemoration of the 50th anniversary of Carl Stokes' election as mayor of Cleveland.
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Interviewee
Campbell, Joan (interviewee)
Interviewer
Perry, Dee (interviewer)
Project
Stokes: Honoring the Past, Inspiring the Future
Date
1-12-2017
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
82 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Joan Campbell interview, 12 January 2017" (2017). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 501020.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/1202
Transcript
Dee Perry [00:00:04] We're in the Hanna Library of the Western Reserve Historical Society on Thursday, January 12, 2017, to interview the Reverend Dr. Joan Brown Campbell for the Stokes commemoration exhibition. And it is Reverend R E V E R E N D. Dr. D,O,C,T,O,R Joan J,O,A,N Brown B,R,O,W,N Campbell C,A,M,P,B,E,L,L. Reverend Campbell, I wanted to start with the fact that you were. You became an ordained minister sometime in the '80s, but in 1965, you were active in your church at a time when the Civil Rights Movement was very much in effect. What church were you a member of and how would you describe it in terms of diversity?
Joan Campbell [00:01:12] I was a member of Heights Christian Church and had been a member of that church for quite a while. I had three young children, all of whom were baptized in that church, and it was a very active church. The minister, Dr. Albert Pennybacker, was an extremely active minister in the areas of race and in the areas of social justice, and the church was known for that.
Dee Perry [00:01:39] And so in 1965, you invited the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. To speak at your church. What prompted you to do that, and what was the reaction of the church establishment?
Joan Campbell [00:01:52] Well, Martin Luther King was in town in Cleveland and had been visiting, as he put it himself. He said, I think that I have visited every Black church in the city of Cleveland. We were preparing for an election in which the first African American would be a candidate, that being Carl Stokes for mayor of the city.
Joan Campbell [00:02:15] And so we were sitting in a meeting and we had regular monthly meetings, sometimes more often of people in the various congregations, churches, synagogues, mosques that were interested in the election. And when Dr. King said that, I was very struck by that. And I said, have you ever been in white church in your time in Cleveland, which was almost a year of his being there and being.
Joan Campbell [00:02:44] And he said, no, I've never been invited. And, well, I was very young, I was in my early 30s, and very naive and very taken with Dr. King. And so I said, what I realized, history has taught me was the, to some degree, the unacceptable invitation. And I said, well, Dr. King, I'm sure that you'd be welcome in my congregation.
Joan Campbell [00:03:10] I have a minister who's been working for civil rights, and I can't think of anything more wonderful for my congregation than for you to say, we'd be honored if you'd be willing to come and speak for us. That's the short of a very long story.
Dee Perry [00:03:29] You were sure that Dr. King would be welcome. Were you surprised by the reaction of people who attended the church?
Joan Campbell [00:03:40] I was extremely surprised by the fact that the church didn't take the information that he was willing to come. I really expected, because of the pastor, who had been so strong an advocate for civil rights and such a person who admired Dr. King so much, that I really expected when I went to the congregation, to the leadership, that I would receive a thank you. What a wonderful opportunity. It was not that way. It became immediately clear from the very beginning that there would be strong opposition, as is all too often true in churches and in other places as well. Those with the most resources, the most wealth, the most worried about the way the congregation might be seen or understood that immediately said, now, I don't think we need to make this step. In the beginning, it was a little softer, a kind of no, but not a forceful no. As the discussion went on, it got more heated and the congregation began to divide between those who wanted him to come. And at one point, it became so much of an issue that one of the well to do people in the congregation said, you know, we've always wanted to redecorate the synagogue. I mean, to redecorate the place where we have our services. And I think I could find the resources for that to happen. And so let's wait to invite him after we've redone the sanctuary. I have to tell you, no one in that congregation had ever heard of redoing the sanctuary anytime before that moment. And of course, the point to be made was then we would have no acceptable place to receive him. And without making the story take too long, what began to happen was there were Those who wanted Dr. King, and there were those who thought it would be a very big mistake. And then it became even more heated. There were those who said, we will leave the congregation if, in fact, Dr. King comes to speak here. And so the congregation divided very seriously. So with some of the people with the greatest amount of resources, particularly their pledges, it began to be clear that the church would lose some of their resources if we went ahead and invited Dr. King. To make a long story short, we did invite him. The pastor, Dr. Albert Pennybacker, was the pastor and was very much in favor of this and affirmed the decision. It's a long and complex story about how it played out, but it had personal effects in my own life. My husband was an attorney at what was then Squire Sanders and Dempsey. And as Squire Sanders pointed out, they did the work for the city, they were the lawyers for the city. And one had to be careful of the position that One took about what was eventually to be the election of Carl Stokes. And so it became heated, complicated, and dangerous because it had to have Dr. King come into a situation where there wasn't universal and no white church had invited him to come into their congregation before this particular invitation. The invitation stood, but therein, and behind that lies a very long, complicated, in some ways a shameful story. It was a church whose minister had spoken out, spoken out strongly on the absolute value and importance that the church become an integrated congregation. It was his dream. Not just what he said as the pastor, but this is the dream for our society. So for Dr. King to come, for Minnie, was something that gave reason and importance to the pastor's own beliefs and teachings. But for those who were opposed to it, they were, unfortunately, the people with the money and the threats of people losing jobs, of people's lives being affected by this was strong.
Dee Perry [00:08:26] I just want to continue down this road for a little bit longer because Dr. King did in fact come to the church, but he spoke on the steps. And you've said that it was the beginning of who you are today, that whole process. And then the speech itself. I wanted you to talk about how. So how did that change you? How did that event change you?
Joan Campbell [00:08:51] Well, the way in which Dr. King was received, or not received within my own congregation probably changed my own life. I began to understand in very personal ways what it meant to be an advocate for Martin Luther King. He came into our home for dinner. We had to have the police come into the house and go over the whole house before he was allowed to come. We had to have police in the house all night long. It certainly created more than a little bit of difficulty in my own family, my husband being a squire Sanders lawyer, it being clear that this was not the most acceptable idea that he would come to the church. And so it began to affect my own personal life. Not just the decision to have him, but for the grace of God, he came. The church would not allow him to speak inside the church. And so he spoke on the back steps of the church, and thousands of people came. We couldn't possibly have ever gotten that many people inside the congregation. And so the story of the congregation's life became stronger because he spoke, not weaker. And to this day, people will go and stand on that back step and will recall for those who are. I'm now 85 years old, and so for many, they don't live anymore. And so. But the story gets told every year, and the people go and they stand on the back steps of the church. And they remember. And the people that are of my age, people who were there, come back and tell the story. And for the minister himself, when he left the congregation, not at that point, he stayed as the pastor quite a while after that, but the way they honored him the day he left and went to another, bigger congregation, actually in Texas, they have a big plaque on the back door of the church that says, during the ministry of Albert M. Pennybacker, Dr. Martin Luther King spoke from these steps. And so it has become the rich history of that congregation, which is now an integrated congregation.
Dee Perry [00:11:22] 1965 was a momentous year for other reasons. That was the first run by Carl Stokes for mayor of Cleveland. Were you and members of your church involved in that first attempt to become mayor by Carl Stokes?
Joan Campbell [00:11:46] Many people in the congregation were, in fact, very involved in. And that was before Dr. King came. They were already involved and committed to do what they could. After all, this was a suburban congregation, and these were not people that could vote for the mayor, but because he was the city's mayor. But the fact is, many people in the congregation before and after Dr. King came were already involved in the possible election because he was to become the first African American mayor of a major American City.
Dee Perry [00:12:24] And Dr. King came to Cleveland specifically around encouraging the registration of more Black voters. Were you also involved in the voter registration drive?
Joan Campbell [00:12:38] Really, the reason that the group of people came together to work was for the election of Carl Stokes. The incident of Dr. King's presence in the congregation, though, it played very large both in my own personal life and in the life of that congregation. The real issue that people were facing was, would we. Could we. Should we have the first? Would it be our privilege or would it be our curse to have the first African American mayor of a major American city? So already the city was divided and divided right down the lines of how people felt about Carl's becoming the first mayor. And so it all became tied together and became part not only of the history of that church, but the history of Cleveland is very much tied to the election of Carl Stokes and certainly to the presence of Dr. King and his involvement, as was the involvement of many of the African American churches. And then gradually, the white churches began. And I do think that Heights Christian Church should be given a good courage badge for being the first, the first white church in the city to take on what we thought in its most simple form was to honor a man who had already won the Nobel Peace Prize. To this day, I sort of try to tell the story now to My grandchildren. And soon, I suppose I will tell it to a great grandchild that who would have thought that a man as revered as Dr. King, he'd won the huge Nobel Peace Prize for who he was and what he did would be treated in the way that he was treated. But it was also true that I do believe that without Dr. King, it might not have been possible for Carl Stokes to become the mayor. He played a very key role.
Dee Perry [00:14:42] Did Carl Stokes speak at your church?
Joan Campbell [00:14:46] Did what?
Dee Perry [00:14:46] Did Carl Stokes speak at your church?
Joan Campbell [00:14:49] Yes. Yes, Carl Stokes did speak at the church.
Dee Perry [00:14:51] And what was the reception to him?
Joan Campbell [00:14:54] Well, it was at a different time than I think. The time that King came was a time of turmoil within the city. There was plenty of disagreement about supporting a man to be the Black mayor of the city. And so. But Carl Stokes came to speak at the church after he became the mayor, not during the struggle to become the mayor.
Dee Perry [00:15:25] He did not win the election in 1965, but it was a very close race. When he ran again in 1967, were you involved in that effort?
Joan Campbell [00:15:39] When he ran in '67, I was very involved. And I had an assignment that I won't ever forget, not because of its front-page importance, but because of its impact in my life. In one of the major AME churches in Cleveland, the night before the election, we gathered 500 students and the pastor of that church, and if he were still alive, I would go back again and tell him. You didn't tell me what it was like to have 500 young people stay in your church overnight. Getting prepared to go door to door to make sure that the vote came out so that people got out and actually voted. It was one of the most important efforts in that election was that these young people went door to door in the city of Cleveland offering to take people to vote. At that point in time, there were many people who had never voted before. Even though they had the right to vote. They were too concerned about whether they had the real right to vote, to leave their house, to go to the place to vote. And the presence of these young people was extremely effective, where they would go knock on the door and say, have you voted? Let me take you. And we did have to be very careful with the lines that we drew, because at that point in time, and I want to be very clear to say, it is not this way today, but at that point in time, it was dangerous for people to go into Little Italy, especially if they were African Americans, trying to get out the vote. And so we had to be very clear with them that you could not cross that line. And we did have one young man out of 500. We have one student who was badly treated, didn't die from it, didn't have to be hospitalized, but at least knew that he was in an unwelcome place. And it's not that way today. These stories are always hard to tell because you look back in history, and I know Little Italy, and they would be horrified. They don't want that story told over and over again. But it was a part of the reality. And it seems to me maybe the gift of being 85 is that you can look back on history, and I could see. I can still feel the pain of how I felt at the way people were so against having an African American mayor. It was very difficult for me to believe that that kind of hatred existed. But we encountered it on a regular basis when we were walking door to door at that time.
Dee Perry [00:18:27] Were you there in place on election night, watching the returns with the candidate and the organization around him?
Joan Campbell [00:18:37] Well, the night of the election was, of course, a very, very, you know, both exciting and fearful night, wondering how it would come out. And more than that, how would the city receive if we did elect Carl Stokes? How would he be received? I remember a story that I often tell because it's important in my own family. Most people know that Jane Campbell was the first and to date the only woman mayor of the city of Cleveland, who's my daughter. But she went door to door with me when we were working for the election of Carl Stokes. And at one point, we were on the west side of town and in a neighborhood particularly opposed to having that gentleman be the mayor of Cleveland. And after we were thrown out of two or three houses, rather impolitely, she turned to me, I think she was 12 years old, and she said, I can't imagine how anyone in their right mind would ever want to be mayor of this city with people being this mean. And when she called me to say, mother, I'm going to run for mayor many years later, I said, do you remember what you said when you were 12 years old and what you had to go through and what Carl had to go through to become the mayor of the city.
Dee Perry [00:20:00] After the election, directly after, what kind of reaction did you see, feel, read about in the city?
Joan Campbell [00:20:12] Well, I think after the election, you had a mixed situation. At that point, there were many people and a growing number of people who were proud of the fact that Cleveland had the first African American mayor. But as I found out from my own Daughter when she became the first woman mayor. It's nice historically to have been the first. In whatever field you're in, in the time that you're living through it, it is difficult, people. When Carl became the mayor, there was an acceptance of his becoming the mayor, despite all the unacceptance that there was in his fight to be the mayor. But there was always an undercurrent, and he was always judged by those who had said, this will not be good for the city. He will not be a good mayor. And of course, then he had to come up against when Dr. King was killed. And I still remember to this day that Carl said, we will not have a dangerous city because of this. We will be able to say that the first African American mayor of Cleveland is able to keep the peace even in the face of something this terrible. And in the main, that was true. There were incidents, but the city was not brought to terrible disorder like some cities were. And Carl Stokes called the ministers, these ministers, some of whom had not wanted to elect him, many of whom had wanted to. White ministers and Black ministers joined him that night and walked the streets of the Cleveland to keep the peace. And I think, for me, as I remember it, it was a very important time, time perhaps, when for the first time, the city said, this is our mayor, and we're proud of him.
Dee Perry [00:22:17] He had some strategies for improving life in the city. But before we talk about those, I wanted to get a sense from you, if you knew what the challenges were that he was up against. What state, economically, socially, racially was Cleveland in at the time when he became mayor?
Joan Campbell [00:22:46] Well, of course, when Carl became the mayor, the city was openly divided. We're still a divided city in many ways, but at that point in time, it was open. It was out there. There were people that wanted him to be mayor, people that didn't. The line for that was clearly the line of race. And so the racial divide became very clear, very much out there. And in many ways, that was both a negative and. And a positive. I think for many people, particularly in the suburban areas, it was hard for them to believe that there would be as much uprising against an African American mayor as the city put forward. But it also became true that Carl became a mayor that was taken seriously. Gradually, what you began to see were people coming to say, this is our mayor. Now, in no way would I say, nor do I remember, that all went well. I remember very well when his son was kidnapped on his way home from school. And I particularly remember that because it was at that point that you realized that if even the child of the mayor, a little boy, was going to be in danger. And it all came back into my own life when my daughter became the mayor and she had two children, two girls, both in high school. And the police took. Had to take them to school every day and take them home every night. Now, I have to tell you, as the grandmother now and then, of course, as the grandmother of those children, girls, can you imagine teenage girls thinking of anything more fun for them than to have to go to school in a police car and come home in a police car? But the danger of the life of people in public service, which we have seen, if you remember that particular time, for those who are listening, I'm sure they will remember that was a time of our losing a number of people by being killed for simply being in public life. And public life was dangerous. And it was a time in which the prejudices were played out on the lives of people in public life. And to this day, I think our mayor in the city and the mayors in many cities have a kind of protection that I think some people look at now and say, well, why do we have this? But they forget the time in which it was dangerous to be in public life. And I think when people judge Carl Stokes or Lou Stokes or our current mayor or mayors in any major city, they fail to realize the way in which it affects the life of every single person in that mayor's family. And I saw it myself, I saw the girls. They were enriched by it, no doubt about it. But it also affected who they were. And my youngest granddaughter, Jane's youngest daughter, when she wrote her essay for college, and her essay was called seeing is not necessarily believing. And I said to her, Katie, why did you do that? Why are you writing that story? She said, well, Grandma, I, I know that's true. I knew the mayor. She lived in this house. And when I watched the news, what they told us was not true and that I have never forgotten that affected a child, that what she would see on the nightly news in some channels, not all. And she was able to say, that's not really the way it was. That's not what happened. She probably grew up at that point well beyond her years.
Dee Perry [00:26:58] You mentioned Louis Stokes. And in the same year that Carl took over as mayor of Cleveland, Louis Stokes was elected as Ohio's first Black congressman. Were you witness to his campaign strategy involved in that at all? Was your first encounter with Lou Stokes?
Joan Campbell [00:27:21] I actually knew Lou Stokes before I knew Carl Stokes because he was very involved in the city's work and livelihood, as was my daughter, even then at that point. But I remember I worked very strongly in the ecumenical movement and worked with the Black ministers in the city. And I remember sitting very quietly at that point. I was very young and not a person of note of any means, But I had the privilege of sitting and listening one night to the congregation. It was a conversation between the African American ministers About who should run for mayor, Whether it would be Carl or whether it would be Lou. And I feel to tell every bit of that story would be a violation of. Of being sitting there and just quietly listening. But they evaluated the worth of both of them as what it would mean to the city, to the Black community, to the country. And they felt that Lou would be more likely to be elected because to be the mayor, he was a more flamboyant, more energetic, Perhaps a person with a lot of personal. What's the word? Energy. And attracted people easily.
Dee Perry [00:28:49] You said that they thought Lou would be more electable. Did you mean Carl?
Joan Campbell [00:28:54] Carl. Carl. Carl would be more likely to be elected to mayor. But I think what they also continually said was that Lou was the one with the staying power. And that when the time came for someone to be in Congress, which was more of a staying power, you might explain it that way. Role, you could be elected perhaps more often than you would be if you were going to be the mayor. And so I was privileged to sit and listen to this conversation about how the Black minister themselves evaluated those two men. Both of them valued highly for what role they could play in public life, particularly as they became the first. I know from watching my daughter, I know from my own life every job I've had. I was the first woman to have that job. And the same was true with Jane when she became the first woman to be mayor. So to be the first is both an honor and a terrific challenge. And so I think we have the stokes brothers to thank for taking the risk of being the first mayor and the member of congress that will be remembered in a very positive way for a very long time.
Dee Perry [00:30:22] What were some of the strategies that you saw? Carl Stokes. And on a national scale, Lou Stokes put forward. What kinds of programs would you look at and say, yes, that was something they were doing to advance the city and the country?
Joan Campbell [00:30:44] Well, both Lou and Carl had a strong affection, would be the right word, I think, for the poor. They'd lived in the ghetto. They had lived in poverty. Their mother was a huge influence in both of their lives. Both of them will say that people who knew them as a family gave her many, many kudos for the mother that she was to them and for the strength that she gave them. And so I think they had a commitment to family, and I think both of them could be said to have had a commitment to advancing the role of women, black women, particularly, in political life, which at that point was not on the front. That wasn't the front story for most people. And so I saw both of them. Carl, of course, was the more ebullient, exciting kind of a personality. Lou much more steady Eddie. And of course, we saw that play out in his life. But they never forgot that they grew up in the ghetto and they never forgot their mother. And so in both cases, they were dedicated to the role of women. I think they were very positive in the role of women. And I've heard particularly Lou Stokes speak often about the things that women have to deal with, not just African American women, but women in general, and was a supporter for that. And I think we saw that in his life. And I think for Carl, I would have to say that I think the public life for Carl was more difficult perhaps, than it was for Lou. He was a more flamboyant individual. He was the kind of person that people either loved or questioned. He didn't have a lot of in-betweeners. Lou, on the other hand, I think, didn't have the advantage of being loved and adored, but he had the advantage of being steady Eddie. And I think people saw that. And we watched him move through in his life to be more trusted and more trusted and more trusted. And so I think he gave a larger. Well, it's almost not fair to say that they both gave a strong hit to prejudice. They both made it clear that prejudice was destructive of human life. And that's exactly the way Carl would have said is a destruction of human life. It is not taking God's children seriously. And because of his way of saying things, at least in my life, that message became a very powerful message. And Lou was just the steady person that kept saying. People would keep saying always. And I'm sure he smiled a little. You can count on him. You can always count on him.
Dee Perry [00:33:55] One of the events that stymied the progress of Carl Stokes, many people agree, was the Glenville shootout and then riots in July of 1968. How did you experience those events?
Joan Campbell [00:34:17] Well, I think it was the first that for many of us, that we had encountered the meaning of an African American mayor with an uprising from an African American community. And I think that for Carl, it Was what it would be for anybody difficult, Perhaps more difficult, because this was an African American mayor speaking to a community that was struggling with who they were, what their rights were. You know, Carl had to face the fact that his very election gave people that were African Americans and others as well. I think it affected the lives of women who were fighting for rights. The fact that he got elected made people say it's possible. And when things become possible that have been impossible, there often is played into that, unfortunately, not only grace and power, but trouble. And I think that that was a particularly difficult time. But what it took was to be able to say, an African American mayor comes forthrightly into a situation, Whether these are African Americans or white people or who they were, that there were rights and wrongs. And I think that was an important thing for people to see.
Dee Perry [00:35:55] Before the Glenville situation, Carl Stokes had embarked on a plan for revitalizing Cleveland, the Cleveland now plan. Did you know some of the. The steps that he was taking? Were you aware of how that plan was supposed to play out and what happened after Glenville?
Joan Campbell [00:36:22] I'm not. As I moved to New York City. Well, not quite at that point of time, But I was less involved in what was happening in that particular incident. I think what was important, really. And we never got to see whether he was able to bring it to fruition because his only being there for two terms was not long enough time to really test out some of the issues that he put forward. The blessing of it was that he put these ideas forward, and he tried to help the city see this isn't just a matter of dealing with the issue of prejudice. And where he really was challenged was because I worked with many of the women who were on welfare, and nobody gave Carl stokes a harder time than the women on welfare. They would go and line up in his office and say, mayor, we need your help. We need to help with this situation of what's happening to the women in this community. And at times, Carl, with his own particular sense of humor and his way of going, could someone give me a little help on this issue? But the fact is, he knew very well, and this is where his mother came in, was he knew that the women on welfare, and in those days, those women on welfare were pretty well. They were pretty well organized, and they were a force, and they pushed Carl to do more for them than was really possible for him to do, Being the mayor, not the whole of the city council, but there was no question but that he had in his own soul an understanding that this had to be a part. And to this day, that remains a part of the struggle of the issue of race. And that is what is to happen to the women that are still living lives that should not be.
Dee Perry [00:38:35] What was your role in working with those women? What did you want to help them do?
Joan Campbell [00:38:44] Well, I had. Probably my most meaningful work was really with the women. And I still remember at that point in time, I lived in Shaker Heights. I lived in a lovely, very large home. And I tell this story because it bothered me at the time. It bothers me to this day. And I invited the women to come to my home so that they could have dinner there. I can't tell you how many people that I thought were my friends said, you can't do that. That's dangerous. These women are going to come out to your house. Well, let us help you put away your silver and put away the valuable things that are on display in your house. And I said to them, I said, I lost a lot of friends over this. I said, I've invited these women to come to my home. I want them to see what it's like. And I have no way do I intend to put away things that I think are valuable. These women are going to come into my house. I've been in all of their houses. I know what they have and what they don't have. And I remember saying to one person who never forgave me, I said, you know, in those days, we were talking a lot about the possible dropping of an atom bomb. And I said to her, I said, you know what? If I thought there was an atom bomb to be dropped, I would go live in the ghetto. I would not live in Shaker Heights. And the reason is because I've never been in one of their homes when there hasn't been food. And I've always been amazed that however many more people than were expected, there was food. And somehow something got poured in and something came from somewhere. I never knew where or how, but it was always, have a seat. Have a bite to eat. And I said, when I experienced that generosity, and I was not blind to what could have been trouble for me, but I trusted these women, and they lived very hard lives. And they came and they had a great afternoon, and everything was in order.
Dee Perry [00:41:04] I'm thinking about the fact that you were someone who was, as you said, one of those firsts in many of the areas that you went into. What led you to the path of becoming an ordained minister?
Joan Campbell [00:41:25] Well, it was- I was- The minister that I had, I will tell you a story that will be a good story for people to know. He came to the congregation that I was part of when I was 32 years old, as was he. We were raising our children, stayed in touch with each other during all the years that was. I'm now 85 and that was when I was 32. So that church and what I learned from that minister has been more important in my life than people can possibly know. I am engaged to be married to him at this point in my life. His wife died. My man that was beloved in my life. I was divorced and a big piece of that was related to all of the things we're talking about. But I don't just choose to go into it because I don't want to be talking about fault. The fact of the matter is the issues of those days were disruptive issues in family life and for white people who got into the struggle.More than once I heard the stories of people whose families were split apart. People took. It wasn't whether they took different stands. I look back at my husband and I admire the fact that he believed that he had to feed his family and that my outgoingness on the issue of race was going to hurt him in his law firm. And those were very serious issues for people to face. This was not a light hearted. I don't much like the dress you have or I don't much like what you're doing. These were issues that could break apart a family. And I think that stories that need to be told not in a short way like we are talking, but real stories about people's lives and how it is a costly thing to go against the stream. And I think I found that out. There are times in which I wonder did I get into it too far? Without question, my children were all affected and to this day very positively. A daughter who became the mayor, a son who is in education and a doctor who's head at Metro Hospital of the family care for old people. So in many ways they all think and they will say that we learned a lot, Mom. And they saw that it was hard, but they also saw the rewards of what it meant to believe in something and to say this is not right and I want to be part of the answer to what isn't right.
Dee Perry [00:44:15] And at some point along your journey, what was right for you was to say, I'm going to do this as a woman of faith and I'm going to lead others as a pastor?
Joan Campbell [00:44:28] Yes, I made the decision and I was ordained in an African American church and it was the black pastors that talked me into becoming a minister, they were the ones that said, you know how to preach, girl, and you know how to tell the story and you've lived the life. And I was 50 years old when I was ordained. I was one of the first women ordained and ordained in an African American church at Yale University. And so it's- I've never been sorry to have taken on that challenge. The ministry for me is a great blessing. It's a lot of trouble at times, keeps you up at night and gives you jobs to do that are very tough to do. But on the other hand, I think it has affected my whole family in a positive way. And I yearn for the day when, as we're walking into the times that we live in now, that the churches get their courage back and that they're able to say, we live in a free country. And the church's role is to help that freedom be for all God's people. And we need that today.
Dee Perry [00:45:50] Also today, can you look at things around the city, around the region and point to that and say that's a legacy of Carl Stokes or Louis Stokes or the Civil Rights movement in general?
Joan Campbell [00:46:07] Oh, I think absolutely. I mean, the fact that the city has changed, there's just no doubt that the people who were the early people, the Stokes brothers, certainly, but many people who, whose names we don't know and we don't keep calling out, they have made it a more open place. I mean, my kids went to Shaker schools. Shaker schools are now schools that are black and white. They have people that are from different countries, speak different languages. I remember going there as a minister and being told that there were at least 14 or 15 religions within the people who are the kids who are there in school. And that all of this diversity, it became not just the diversity of race, but it became the issue of diversity itself. Shaker can claim to be a diverse community, which it most assuredly was not at the time that Carl was there and the time that that Dr. King was speaking. But one of the things that amazed me, I for a while worked at the World Council of Churches. And so it meant I got to speak all over the world. And I was asked one day to speak in a little tiny church in Germany, way up in the Northland. And it was still a church where the men and women sat on different sides of the church and married women sat in a different row than women that weren't married. Very old fashioned from us. And I asked them, they said, we've asked you to preach. And I said, could you give me a suggestion? I didn't feel a lot of camaraderie with these people. I mean, I didn't know their life very well, and it's hard to preach when you don't really know. And they said, well, we thought you knew what we wanted. We want you to preach about Dr. King. Now, this was years later, and if you'd have ever asked me to guess what, what they would want me to preach about, I wouldn't have thought it was Dr. King. I thought, how does this little German church way up in the part of Germany that most people don't know, that what they wanted from me as an American? They assumed that he was a hero to me and that that's what they wanted to hear about. So his story is everywhere. And like Gandhi, Dr. King became like Gandhi. And he is to this day someone that what he taught people, how he changed people. The very story about my own congregation when he walked into that church and that day that he walked into that church. And for those of us who wanted him to be there, I can never do it hardly without crying. And the police had called me and said, this is very dangerous, Reverend. Please understand this is this dangerous. And he is to be met at 12:00 O'clock noon on the border of Shaker Heights and the border of Cleveland. And he has to be on time, and he's never on time. And I said, you're telling me that I have to get Dr. King on time? And they said, yes, because his life and everybody else's depends on the fact that there's not one second of time when a police force doesn't have him in their hands. And when he comes to the border of Cleveland and our police hand him over to the Shaker police, that has to be without a hole in it. So I was assigned to talk to Dr. King. And at that point, he was not Martin to me, he was Dr. King. And I told him, and he looked at me and he smiled and he said, well, my dear, it looks to me like I could do you a favor. I'll be on time. And when those police forces came together, he was exactly on time. Probably one of the few times in his life. But the fact is he knew what mattered. And I felt honored in that. He didn't say, what a stupid idea. I'll come when I'll come. He didn't take on this attitude of somebody ultra important that said, I'll do it my way. But what he did was he took me to. To his Heart and said, I see you're suffering over this. I mean, don't worry, I'll be there. And he was there. And the takeover from one city to another, and then all of these thousands of people who signed up to hear him speak, to this day, that will always be a memory for me.
Dee Perry [00:50:55] We've been talking about it a time in the mid to late 60s when the Civil Rights Movement was very active. Now, today, it seems when you say civil rights, that people are talking about another era. So I wonder if you see the need for a movement like that or a mechanism that continues to champion equality and justice.
Joan Campbell [00:51:28] Oh, I think there's no question, but the fact that our day needs a strong movement. And I think in our most recent election, we saw it in the young people. We saw the young people come forward. And to this day, I watch them. These are my grandchildren. I see that they have a dream, but it's not a dream that is coming to them from their elders or even because of them. It's coming out of what they themselves are experiencing. And what I'm watching are young people who are more committed to finding a common life than they are to making money. Not all of them, by any means, but I feel something in the air about what they're doing, what choices. I'm watching my grandchildren. What choices are they making? My granddaughter, who's in medical school, and the other night I said to her, Jessica, what do you think you're going to want to do? And you're in your third year now? And she said, Grandma, I think I want to be an anesthesiologist. And I said, interesting choice. She said, yes, but I want to be an anesthesiologist that has special instruction in babies that need anesthetics. It's a whole different world, and we don't have that. And so I listened to this, and I watched my other granddaughter, who ended up in Cuba, going to seminary in Cuba. She was in the Peace Corps. This is Jane Campbell's kids. I mean, and it's just I could go through them. There's too many of them. But to see their dreams and visions, they're not ones that if someone said to me, would you develop a dream or a vision for your grandchildren in the first place? I wouldn't say yes. Those grandchildren are strong enough that I would know better than to say yes to such a question. But the fact is, as I watch young people, not just mine, it just happens that I know more about them. But I have a young man that works for me, and he works for me because I am not a computer wizard. Anybody that knew me for two minutes would say that was true. He is. He can make things happen that no matter how good an idea I have or what connections I have, I'm not able. It's one of the really scary things about being. People ask me, what's it like to be 85? I said, it's fine as long as I don't have to think about the fact that my communication is, is limited by the difficulty I have with. Understand I wasn't born with a computer in my hands. And I think that there's a lot happening in how young people, I think we're going to see young people. I believe we're beginning to see it. We saw it in the election. They're taking a look of their own at what it is for them would describe the life that they're looking for in terms of.
Dee Perry [00:54:35] We were talking about a very divided city and a very divided country in the late 60s. What are you seeing now that gives you pause and that gives you hope?
Joan Campbell [00:55:01] Well, of course, looking backwards is always easier than looking forward because I was deeply involved in the divisions of the day of yesterday. I know those strategies pretty well. I know what changed it. I know what brought it to people's minds. What worries me today is how do we define what we're facing, the divisions that we're facing. And it's impossible as an 85 year old to even compare myself as a, what was I then, you know, 32 year old. It feels different to me today, but it probably feels different in part because of my age and partly it feels different because we're so, it's so important to us. Twittering, for instance, tweeting, this is like, you know, to me, I would not even think of doing this. But the fact of the matter is that this becomes not just in a coming president, but in ways of communication. The ways we communicate. I have more trouble envisioning. And I talk to my grandchildren and say, help me envision how you're going to make change happen. And I want to hear their answers because. And they'll say to me, but you helped make things change happen. How did that happen? And so through them, we try to seek the common ground for the first. And one thing that we all say to each other is there is a determination to think there's something wrong and that we can make a difference. And once you say that, whether you're in that generation, a coming up generation, or a generation who is facing their last wonderful days, that was always. The issue is you have to believe that something needs to be addressed. And I think that's. That's what we have to face up to, is there are issues in front of us that are creating danger for the lives of many people. And where there's agreement on that, it's not the generation that's the problem. It's the people who are so committed to leaving it the same as it is and not to realize the differentiation that there is in race, in gender, in. In economic viability, in all of the ways that we divide ourselves. Those with the passion to deal with those divisions, regardless of their age, they'll be able to work together.
Dee Perry [00:57:46] You mentioned your daughter Jane, the first and only female mayor of Cleveland. I'm wondering if there were things in her campaign strategy, in her ascension to the mayor's office, that you could look back and say there's a parallel to when Carl Stokes became mayor.
Joan Campbell [00:58:08] Well, I think the parallel. There was a lot of parallel, actually, because whenever I speak out of some of my own experience of always being the first woman to do whatever job I had, there's some privileges with that, and there's some curiosity that people have. I noticed that a lot with Jane and with Carl, the kind of, what's it going to be like? Not the question that you. The question you want to have asked is, am I a good mayor? Do you think I'm a good mayor? Not are you a good Black mayor? Are you a good woman mayor? But what are you offering the city? I saw that with Carl. I saw that with Jane. There's a lot of way of evaluating who they were as who they were, not only by what they did or were not able to do, but because one was Black and one was a woman. And I think that that's an issue that is common in both cases, where you get. And I know that from my own life, from being in so many of my jobs, the first woman. And at times I used to say, could we just evaluate what I'm doing not just as the first woman, as though that was going to make a difference, because the prejudice is built into that. And sometimes it's not just prejudice. Sometimes there's a. All right, we'll give her a little bit more room. But the worst part of it is that, well, you know, we're. We're not really sure how a woman is going to approach this issue or that issue or this was the first Black. And in that case, they're very much alike. Is that, you know, to sum. If I could try to sum it up, which is hard. It's as though a woman mare has a behavior pattern that is tied to all these other women, and that an African American mare, particularly the first one, is going to behave somehow in an African American way. And so what you have to overcome is, please, I'm your mayor. I'm a person. I'm making decisions for the city. I care about the people of this city. And could we value that, just that, without overlaying it with the first woman and the first Black?
Dee Perry [01:00:32] In his autobiography, Carl Stokes wrote about feeling like he was on borrowed time, that he only had a certain amount of time to try and affect change because people were going to deliberately block his path. Did Jane have that same sense that people were deliberately trying to stop her progress?
Joan Campbell [01:01:01] Jane Campbell was the first and to this date, the only woman mayor. Yes, and now I'm her mother. I also am sad for her that no street has ever been named for her. No recognition has ever been given to the first woman mayor, and I'm puzzled by that. She is, to this day, the only woman mayor the city has ever, ever had. And as women are talking now about having a big demonstration, I said to somebody, I said, I wonder if Cleveland would think about honoring their only woman mayor as we look at these days, for what is tomorrow going to mean for women? But I'm always fascinated by the fact that that isn't a part of the Cleveland.
Dee Perry [01:01:55] I wonder, because we talked a lot about Carl's legacy, if there are things that you can look at in terms of Louis Stokes and perhaps a relationship that he had with the city of Cleveland and therefore with your daughter as mayor, legacies that he and she helped create for the city.
Joan Campbell [01:02:21] Well, I think there's. It's a rather complicated issue to discuss in a way, because there's no question but what Lou Stokes, Mayor Stokes, and mayor Campbell all created something for the city that they had not had before. And it meant that people had to encounter something that they hadn't had to encounter. I can remember the Black ministers talking to Jane when she was the mayor and saying, now, mayor. It was when she was running for the second term. And they said, all right, you know, you have to stop saying we. We is not a good thing. If you want to get elected, you have to say, I did. And I remember Jane saying to me, I happened to be in one of these meetings, and she said, but I am not doing this. We are doing what's happening in this city. But I began to think about it, and I thought, perhaps One of the things that marks a woman is the we part of what we are. Making this happen, you should see it as a strength, not as a weakness. But what they were trying to say to her, the African American men that were talking to her, they wanted her. And they said, mayor, you know, that's all fine, but what you need to do is to say, I did this so that people understand that you understand leadership. For them, it was not a matter of your bragging. It is a matter of saying, I'm your leader, pay attention to this. And this is what I'm saying we have done or need to do. I will never forget that conversation because I thought it was instructive to me who's been the first woman in every job I've ever had. And so I think there's a lot of really good conversation that the city of Cleveland could have about the first African American mayors or even the continuing the mayors that we have and the first woman mayor. I think the whole concept of first and of breaking open something that hasn't been is, well, we look at the President of the United States and we look at how he presented himself. And as I watched him as he left office, I thought, with what dignity and beauty of person did he make that? Did he take that leaving now? I voted for him. I thought he was, you know, who I wanted to see be our head of government. So I don't come as an unbiased person on that issue, but I think being a first of anything is laden with gifts, but also with challenges.
Dee Perry [01:05:28] Speaking of challenges, what do you see as the biggest one facing our city and our region today?
Joan Campbell [01:05:37] It's hard to say what is the biggest challenge facing us. I think in many ways the city's challenge is the challenge of the region, not just the city itself. I wrestle in my own mind with take Columbus, that has grown as a city because it kept taking in suburban areas. I think one of the things that Cleveland has to face is we are separate, all the separate entities. When you ask people, if you say to people, I happen to live in Chagrin Falls, but I always say I live in Cleveland because Cleveland is the defining name of the area we live. And I think one of the challenges we have to face is how do we unite these different areas in a precise way, not just in an ethereal way, but to say what way, as Jane used to say when she was mayor. You know, there are things that the city of Cleveland could learn from the south suburbs, but there are things the suburbs could learn from the city of Cleveland as well, and to get that into a more unified force for what is the Cleveland area could only be a plus for us. I know very well that there's a lot of pitfalls in that, and a lot of people's futures depend on the separation. But to rise above the need of persons to be elected or not elected by virtue of the smallness of the part of the city in which they live or the part of the Cleveland area. Could we have a discussion about this and take honest look at what would it mean for us to become a more united Cleveland in the future?
Dee Perry [01:07:33] Before I'm totally done, I wanted to find out if there are any questions in the room that you feel like?
Joan Campbell [01:07:40] I wanted to go back a little bit.
Dee Perry [01:07:43] And number five, kind of going back to number five, just so you have it.
Dee Perry [01:07:50] First aware of Carl Stokes. Yeah, first aware of Carl Stokes or first aware. You know, when did you first become involved in civil rights? I mean, was it at that church because of the minister there or what initially sparked that drive that you have to fight for civil rights? Talk straight to Dee. But, you know. And did you hear what Christine was saying?
Joan Campbell [01:08:23] The question was, where did I get involved?
Dee Perry [01:08:26] Exactly.
Joan Campbell [01:08:30] There is no question in my mind that my first involvement with taking a position where there was prejudice came from my father. I will always remember my father's- One of his best friends was an anesthesiologist in the city of Youngstown. Now, this would have been if- I'm 85. I was 10 years old at that point. I was a young kid. And this man who was the- In those days, anesthesiologists were rare. It was a brand-new idea. But because he was a surgeon, he knew that some patients lost their life. They have had a different animal anesthesia. Anyway, that's more details than is needed. But one night he called my sister and myself into the room with my mother, and he said, I want you to know that this doctor, my very best friend, committed suicide tonight. And I knew when my father started to have tears in his eyes, something terrible had happened. I didn't really understand everything of what it was. And he said to us, I think to my mother's worry, he said, you know, he was a homosexual. And back in those days, he didn't say that. But what he said was, in the time in which we live, that was unacceptable. And he said, so we lost a gift of God to the people of this city. But because of prejudice. That was the beginning for me of having my father say to me, because of prejudice, this man took his own life. I've never forgotten that story. I didn't even know what to be a homosexual meant or what it was. And it was not even on the table of talk in that far back. But I think from that day forward, and my father and mother both. My mother took the white YWCA in Youngstown, Ohio, and joined it to the Black YWCA. And she was practical. She didn't give me a lecture about, this is about race. She said, this is stupid. Why do we have two YWCA's when we're trying to talk about women who need a place to come together? So I'm now head of the white YWCA, and I've made a decision with the woman at the Black YWCA that we will become one YWCA. And to this day, in Youngstown, there is one Y. So I grew up without having any lectures on race or prejudice. I had no lectures on that at all in the form of a lecture. What I had was living people. When I look back on it, and I think, you know, I remember my father. My father and mother had a big fight about whether I should go to a girls' school or go to the University of Michigan. And my father said, no, she's not going to a girls' school. I don't want her to go to a girls school. She's going to live in a world where men have the power, and I want her to be able to do and be who she can be. And so, no, she's going to the University of Michigan, which I did. And not to speak against girls schools, but you have to. When people ask me why was I able to deal with the Stokes issue and with the hatred in the church that arose out of this? And I said, you know, I got brought up that way. And I think I have to give a lot of credit to my parents who lived lives. My father was a doctor at a time when in the steel mills, if those people, people didn't have any money to have a doctor, the hospital had something called G Ward, J Ward. And J Ward was for the poor. But only doctors that chose to work on that ward. Imagine, not every doctor in the hospital had to do it. And my father worked on. He used to talk about J Ward because those were people that needed a doctor and they didn't have the money to have it. So. So if you grow up, I mean, my lesson that I learned was if my father were listening today, he would say, good, but don't take such big chances, girl, be careful. Because he was also a father and, you know, I remember as a child he gave me a motto. And today women would say it isn't really a good motto because it's all about a man. But he was also, his father was a minister. And he said, dare to be a Daniel, dare to stand alone, dare to have a purpose bold and dare to make it known. And my whole growing up years, and when I was with Dr. King, I remember saying to myself, you'd be proud, Dad. I dared to be a Daniel. And that those things, I mean, I speak to young mothers, young fathers, people raising children. The importance of how you raise your children has everything to do with how they emerge in later life, I think.
Dee Perry [01:13:57] And the other point I wanted to get in was when you first became aware of Carl Stokes, when was he on your radar? Before he began to run for mayor or.
Joan Campbell [01:14:11] No, he was somewhat. Because he had run and lost the first time that he ran for mayor. And I was interested in politics. I was always interested in politics. And also in the church that I belonged to, we did have a minister who often preached about the injustices of life and directly spoke about race. And so I was very tuned to that. And in that way I knew Carl, not personally, but I knew that he had run for mayor. I knew the struggle he'd had. And so for me, it was an honor to get to work with him then and get to meet him and to be working for his election. And of course, if you were at that point in time and you were a pretty strong member of a congregation that was a liberal congregation, a congregation that was committed to the ending of prejudice, you had to know about Martin Luther King. I mean, that was something that I think we all in that congregation knowing about Dr. King was just sort of a self evident thing that you would do if in fact we were going to live out the gospel in the way it was being preached to us. And I will never, ever, I will all my life be able to say I believe that because a pastor said, you know, we are all God's people. That is what we have to know. All the rest of it is commentary. As long as we're aware that we're all God's people, then we will act out our lives in ways that are the ways we ought to as people of religion. And there's no question in my mind but what my religion was, the guide to all that happened, my parents, my faith were what came together in me and said, then I chose, you know, I can't tell you that when I chose the life that I did that I knew it would be something sometimes as difficult. I didn't know I'd end up with a divorce. I didn't know that there'd be threats to the family. I didn't know any of that. But because I think I had a strong beginning as a child and then a strong life of faith. I mean, my grandfather's father. My grandfather was a minister. So for me, the life of faith was. But it's probably, to this day, it annoys me if ministers aren't brave. I want them to be brave. I think that's our job, is to put forward for people what it means to be a person of faith. And what it means, as you look at. And I carefully use the word faith, not the word a person of Christian faith, because I really believe that the faith of all people is to be honored. And. And in many ways, the same story is told in different ways. And I'm a great believer in the fact that people of faith have to come to trust one another just as they would people who have no faith, but have found a way in life to believe in what it means to say, I believe that all people are equal. That's a huge thing to follow because it's very hard to live that out.
Dee Perry [01:17:50] And unless there is something that you feel like we missed or that you just especially want to add. Reverend Campbell, I think we're done. But let me give you a moment to think about that. If there's anything else you want to say.
Joan Campbell [01:18:03] Well, I have one closing comment. I have great faith in the coming generation. I see them as grandchildren. I see them as people who come and help me when I'm not so good at the computer. I see young people who take a political stance that is honorable. And so what I want people that are of my age, grandparents. I want us to. To be able to listen to the young people and say, are there things we have to give them? Yes, I believe we do. But are there things they can teach us? And I believe there is lots that they can teach us. And in the difficult times that I'm sure we're going to face, I think we need to look to the young people and to see are they the ones, through whatever channel is available to them, that they will begin to challenge this country to be what it was born to be. One more quick one, Reverend. You talked about Lou. You knew them both very well. He was steady, and he talk a little bit more about Lou, about his quiet determination, his years of service. And were you surprised by. By all that he accomplished throughout his career. In many ways, I knew Lou Stokes better than I knew Carl. I knew Carl more as the mayor, as the. I knew him personally. I shouldn't say that. I knew a lot of his personal struggles. I worked hard with his son, who's had a terrible time trying to help him deal with issues of drugs and with other kind of issues.
Joan Campbell [01:19:49] But Lou became a friend of the family. Lou supported Jane when she ran for mayor. I mean, really supported her. Supported her in every way that you can imagine. Lou and I were friends. His wife and I were friends. When I worked at the chautauqua institution, Almost every other year, we would have him come as a speaker because, you know, people were always so happy when he would come. He was thorough. He was able to help. He had the skill of standing there as a Black man, first person to have taken the position that he held, and a person of real stature and note. And yet, when he spoke to a group of people, he had a way of speaking to them that he could be heard. He didn't press the button in people that immediately went, no, I don't want to hear that. You're challenging me. He had a steady Eddie quality about him, and he had progress that he could show. He could say, here's what I've done when I've been in the Congress. He had real accomplishments to be able. And he was there long enough to have not only had accomplishments, but to be honored by all of his colleagues. And so I think in the long run, perhaps because my friendship with Carl was probably more personal, but it was much shorter and less deep. My knowledge of Lou was more complete, more full. I felt I knew him as a father, as a politician, as a man who was willing to say that there are certain things in life that were problems for him and other things in which he'd made great accomplishment. I was a great admirer, and he did do incredible things. I mean, he was honored by everybody in the government. I mean, he was almost universally respected. And for all those of us who attended his funeral, we saw the love for him, the cross on all kinds of lines,
Dee Perry [01:22:02] And I think that's it. Reverend Campbell, thank you so much.
Joan Campbell [01:22:05] You're welcome.
Dee Perry [01:22:06] And your insight.
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