Abstract
Cordell Stokes is the youngest child of Carl Stokes and was born while his father was the mayor of Cleveland. He is a graduate of Youngstown State University and is an executive with the Urban League of Greater Cleveland. This 2017 interview was collected as part of a yearlong, community-wide commemoration of the 50th anniversary of Carl Stokes' election as mayor of Cleveland.
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Interviewee
Stokes, Cordell (interviewee)
Interviewer
Donato, Mike (interviewer)
Project
Stokes: Honoring the Past, Inspiring the Future
Date
7-18-2017
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
65 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Cordell Stokes interview, 18 July 2017" (2017). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 501012.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/1211
Transcript
Mike Donato [00:00:04] Cordell, let's talk a little bit. We'll start where I want to talk a little bit about your father and your uncle. Let's start with your father. From your perspective, what made him a special person?
Cordell Stokes [00:00:16] What made my father a special person was the fact that during the 1970s he had custody of all three of, including my brother and my sister. And he also had to maintain a career, a very impacting one as a newscaster. Being the first Black anchor on a major news network and dealing in a very large city especially in the '70s where it was very crime-ridden very difficult place to live in for kids. And the way he took ownership of maintaining both the balance of the home and the expectations of a dad and the expectations of a parent, in particular to ensure that we were able to reach our potentials. And so I think that that was one major special component that I always look back on is, as well as my uncle, both having ownership. Even though they subsequently had partners a little bit later on, the initial was for him and my uncle to take ownership of the kids.
Mike Donato [00:01:23] If there is one or two elements that he instilled in you from, from growing up and your life's lessons, tell me what those might be?
Cordell Stokes [00:01:32] Loyalty, commitment, and understanding about what life is all about. That you're going to have to prepare yourself to be competitive for the long journey, barring that there's no short-term illness or something that cuts your lifespan short, and a dedication to people's needs. But also more importantly I think it is finding who you are, what your talents are, and how to go about making that happen.
Mike Donato [00:02:03] Can you tell me something about him that might surprise people?
Cordell Stokes [00:02:12] It's a difficult question because he was so public in many ways. And by meaning public, I mean he was in the public both in the community, in the pool rooms, as a mayor, as a judge, as an ambassador. So he never separated himself from the people he tried to do so much for. And so by being exposed to people, they got to know who he was And so they knew who the Carl Stokes was in the city hall, but they knew him outside of city hall. If I had to nail down to one area in particular, I think it's that people probably did not know except for a few good, close friends, and obviously the family would know, is his true commitment to his kids barring no concern whatsoever he was there, thick and thin, throughout every process. So many times our elected officials and those that are very prominent in the community many times they forget about their commitment in their homes because they're so public. And whatever it is that you hear is what you take as that's who that person is. But he was very loving, very understanding about how to, in particular with me being the youngest we just had a very very close relationship. Similar with my uncle. The two of us were very very close. He was a second father to me. And so I think that that's probably the one aspect is that he was genuinely entrenched in the family.
Mike Donato [00:03:58] Great answer. Now obviously you were very young during the time when it was in the second term when you were born. Do you have any distant memories during his time as mayor that you can recall?
Cordell Stokes [00:04:11] No I don't. Because at that time it was- He served two two-year terms. Right now today they have four years. I was two years old when he completed his term and we departed to New York. I can remember going back to 1972-1973, which is about a year or two off, and would have a better understanding. However obviously the communication about what it was like and then those that are around him family, etc., it was very easy for me to tangibly kind of pick up without having been there. And then of course knowing many of the people who were instrumental in every aspect of his administration or community leaders like Harllel Jones, who played an important role during the Glenville Riots, etc. So from that standpoint very minimal from a firsthand perspective but certainly very concrete moving forward in understanding what it was like.
Mike Donato [00:05:16] What about with your siblings and your cousins? I mean you've heard them reflect about- They were older during that time. So a secondhand perspective of what those years were like for the family.
Cordell Stokes [00:05:31] Sure. Well you are right. Since you're going to be interviewing all of our family members for the most part. Chucky, Lori, Angie, obviously my sister has passed on. My brother's unavailable being in California. However, they will give you a good perspective of what it was like because our two families were intricately woven. I mean, we were very close, still close today, so we could almost be considered brothers and sisters as opposed to first cousins. And with our two fathers being best friends as well as brothers, you know it's not much that was not known. And of course they kicked down knowledge to me on some things. But I, again, my relationship with both my father and my uncle. I pretty much knew what was going on and what transpired and was very engaged in many of the other political things as I grew up very young. Mm-hmm.
Mike Donato [00:06:30] Absolutely. Looking back from his time as mayor and what you've learned, what you've observed, what do you feel was his greatest accomplishment?
Cordell Stokes [00:06:42] I think from my perspective, it's not going to be your normal response, but I think it's very important because when you had the eighth largest city in the country two years as a matter of fact he ran the first time in '65. So you just passed the Voting Rights Act and you still had people being hung around this country. And the segregation that existed and still in some cases still exists today. His biggest thing was that with a 37 percent Black population if I remember correctly, you still talk about even if you won all 37 percent of the Black population, you still lose. So his biggest legacy in my opinion was, as he had clearly stated on many occasions, was to not trick his people so that he interfaced regularly and consistently with the white population, the white business community. He did not deter away from trying to interface with that population of voting base because he knew he needed it. And so he had to go over there and talk about what he would do for those constituencies. And during that time frame, we're talking about 1966-67, even '65, even though he lost the first time. So it was important to him to be able to go back to the east side and stand on the same two principles without selling out, quote unquote, to secure the white vote. And that was very important to him is to have that type of balancing act. And so out of everything, I think at such a critical time in history to have been able to do that and being the largest city in the country, coming from the projects, having gone through an army of segregation, having interfaced or had issues impacted on him about abuses of prejudice, that he stood course and did the right thing in ensuring that both what he talked to the white constituents about he would try to do faithfully and the same thing he tried to do for the Black constituents to maintain that same integrity and try and make his mayoral position as effective as possible which obviously did promote the ability for economic development of businesses in the Black community that never had access to. And of course creation of jobs. And of course with the Cleveland NOW program which was unheard of especially at that time when you're talking about the white business community coming together with a Black mayor in to form an economic agenda that had a result on building community centers and other public housing for the community of which was in the minority was unheard of now we know with the riots and all that it showed a little bit later that a Black man being mayor doesn't necessarily avail the protections that you might have been thinking about. But it was certainly a historic effort and one to be reflected upon even in today's economy.
Mike Donato [00:10:08] One of the things about your dad as mayor is he was going through all that stuff with the riots and the city. But he was an early environmentalist really. Talk a little bit about that and maybe where that came from in him about the importance of looking at the environmental issues especially with the lake at the time?
Cordell Stokes [00:10:29] Sure. I'm glad you brought that up because green and LEED and all of those things are much more prominent today and especially with the type of business I deal with various contracting entities and going into different cities. That is what is the thing today, right, Green and LEED and what have you. Well back then obviously we had a major situation with the lake. And I can't give you the premise from which he worked from other than what I would say is that he knows that that was an issue that needed to be dealt with because it had a natural impact on all people not just minorities because it's, right, split you know right in the middle of everything So everybody had to live off of that. So I think at minimum he knew he had to address it and he did the things he needed to do in order to do that. No different from when, excuse me, he was successful in working with HUD to have funds released to come back into the community that were typically frozen and not being used. So it does go back in many ways, when you talk about the environmental aspect of that, he never constrained what he could do And so if you want to look at the environmental aspect why can't a Black man as mayor address an environmental concern at the level he tried to do or did. Why couldn't he be mayor of the eighth largest city in the country that is heavily segregated and a minimal Black population that one would think is going to be the base to take you where you need to be. So he had to believe going across the west side that he could get votes if people listened to him. And so environmentally he felt that he could use all of the resources at his disposal to be able to address a concern for the entire city and region.
Mike Donato [00:12:33] He passed- You were in your 20s when he-
Cordell Stokes [00:12:35] Yep I was 25.
Mike Donato [00:12:38] Okay. I mean did you ever chance to sit down and just talk to him about during his time in office and you know maybe? Did he ever talk to you, what maybe he thought was like you know boy I'm really proud of this and maybe was there a regret that he had for maybe something he didn't have time or wasn't able to get something done because of bureaucracy or whatever the reasoning?
Cordell Stokes [00:13:00] Well I think that Cleveland NOW really chipped at him because you also had at the offset there was a photo, I think it was maybe New York Times or somewhere else. Not New York Times, but one of the national magazines. And it depicted him standing there with many of the Black nationalists behind him with guns, etd. And it promoted the idea that he was using the Cleveland NOW money to fund Black nationalists and the armory that they had. Well that was far from the truth, but I think that because it helped to stunt the potential of that process that public private partnership. I think that's something that he probably wish he could have you know been able to work out or continue or not to have had that issue. Also the situation about Fareed Muhammad who did the shooting that when they thought they had things under control you also had the situation that he had to pull out the white police Well he made the decision with other community leaders and pastors. That was a big, big situation that still has implication today where he made the firm decision as mayor to pull white police out of work so that the Black community could deal with those issues. That had its own implications from that standpoint. I also probably would say, first of all, he didn't get a chance to see through his term or terms of his appointment as Ambassador to the Seychelles Islands. While I think that that office is now closed he had become very attached to the locals and it was so quick that he had to return here. So I know that was something that was devastating to him. And obviously the cancer itself was a major problem because it was out of his control. So I'll add that that was a big issue to him to not have control of this cancer. And obviously subsequently he went on to pass on. So those are some areas there. Probably. Oh, being very transparent because this is something that has been shared I remember one of his big concerns was when we returned here to the city of Cleveland. He felt that he had opened up the doors for many people that are now millionaires. Now probably retiring as elected officials or other high capacities. And he didn't get the welcome he thought coming back home to be able to run for office. So that was something else that he had to deal with. And how would I know? I remember many a night in the middle of the evening where he'd be up there drinking on something but smoking his cigar. Lights are off and he's sitting on the couch and I'd sit with him and we'd talk about whatever those issues were. He was in a big battle when we returned here, of course, with the Plain Dealer so I could recall many nights about 11 o'clock at night he'll wake me up from bed and say let's go Downtown go down on the old- Was that Chester? And pick up the papers at midnight if you recall during that time And then we'd stop off and get something to eat, some barbecue or something which now has implication on me. I get up in the middle of the night and still eat. So I mean but the point is that how he approached. He always tried to think strategy and that strategy would have to be thought about at any point of night, any point of time in the day or night.
Mike Donato [00:17:09] Do you think he realized what a difference he made in his life? I mean it's probably when you're living it you may not have a chance to look back? But do you think he realized he made a difference?
Cordell Stokes [00:17:23] Well I know he does, he did. And he understood the impact that he had made. And that kind of ties into what I just shared with you about some of his discouragement coming back home and getting the fabric of this community- Even though he won his election it was always you have to know what the struggle was to get there. And so he was very clear. Now, was he perfect? None of us are perfect. And if you're in politics you're ready for battle and so you're committed. So I can't give you day to day what his battles are and whether he was on the right side or the wrong side. Every day. You're always going to be on one or the other at some point in time. But overall he knows that he tried to do what was right and whatever that capacity was or resulted in is what it is. That's where the chips fell and where they lay. So overall to answer your question he did know he made a significant impact in this country. And then number two, I knew he wasn't done and was cut short by the Seychelles Islands to have an international impact.
Mike Donato [00:18:37] This year we're looking at this 50 years from the time he was elected. So we ve had some time just to look back now. And what do you think is the legacy of your father?
Cordell Stokes [00:18:53] The legacy of my father can be summed up in a couple of ways. Number one, our ideology through the family both my uncle and my father was not rags to riches but poverty to power. And by going from poverty to power, that means that they were able to effectuate change. So legacy, he was able to grow up in the first public housing, able to drop out of high school, gamble in the streets play pool, traveled with some of our family members who were pool players. Fat Roy and a couple others. Ended up going to the service seeing the world from a different perspective but in the segregated army to come back to go back to high school where he was older and more worldly traveler than the high school student that he just returned from the service in, holding guns, meeting women in Europe, dealing with a greater adult dynamic and coming home. So he realized a lot of change. And I remember one of the big areas when he attended West Virginia State College, which is a Black HBCU school and institute, his professor told him at that time you go get to a white institution because that's where you're going to need to learn for this world. Now of course were supportive of HBCUs, etc., but this is what it was at that time what that professor told him to do and whatever it is that he saw in him. And so he moved on. So the bottom-line legacy I think is the poverty the power in which the power allowed them to effectuate change in many ways, both business and people's lives, overall. And communities.
Mike Donato [00:20:59] Absolutely.
Cordell Stokes [00:21:00] Sure.
Mike Donato [00:21:02] If you- Looking back, you know, with your father and uncle they, I mean, they felt that need that drive to get involved and serve you know specifically in political life. Where did that deep motivation come from?
Cordell Stokes [00:21:18] The deep motivation we're in two different separate silos where my father enjoyed the mixing the mingling and had a focus in the political arena which again goes back to effectuating change. Right? But he was a lawyer by trade or by academia and by trade because he was practicing law in the very beginning. Then number two, you have my uncle who was on the opposite end where he didn't need the public. But what he did do is he knew he needed to try and do something to be a part of what was transpiring. And you'll hear from his kids to talk about his legal work during Dr. King and working with people here locally that had many issues. And then of course unprecedented legal cases at the Supreme Court level, Terry versus Ohio, that's taught in every legal institution now people going on to be an attorney or get their law degree. So from there two different angles. Now, because they were so close and they both had their business practice with their law firm in the early days, the politics kind of rolled over. And then obviously the legal work that my father requested of my uncle to help with the formation of the 21st Congressional District so that we could have representation from a minority standpoint. And then obviously winning that case, it was like who's going to run for the position. And so at that point my father they thought it would have been for him, but as he would say he's already mayor. So the push to get my uncle run against a slew of African American candidates, all of which many of them had gone on to be very prominent judges and mayors, city council people, whatever it may be. So it was not a talent, talent rich. It was a very talent-rich slate of candidates. And so he won. And so that put him in a position actually if I look at it him going into Congress, which is a legislative body, his legal acumen was perfect tie to be able to formulate legislation that would have positive impact on not only this community but the United States as a whole. And in his position in particular having been one of the very few what they call cardinals where he chaired three different appropriation subcommittees, that's a lot of power for a Black man to have in Congress at that time. But he also received great counsel from Tip O' Neill and others. So the service came from. That's how it kind of parted into their respective lives of representing people. And because my uncle loves people it was easy for him to make that transition.
Mike Donato [00:24:31] So let's segue a little bit into your uncle now. You know it's always been reported that when your dad wanted Lou to run, Lou was hesitant. Because as you mentioned, Lou, he wasn't necessarily as much of a public person as your dad was. Have you ever heard inside stories about how your dad talked your uncle into deciding to go for this and do something like this because Lou appeared to be hesitant?
Cordell Stokes [00:24:57] Well, because he liked to do the legal work. I mean he was a phenomenal lawyer and that's where his heart was. And it would be interesting to see the results of your overall interviews with his children because of course in their household there could be some more intimate discussion. But my relationship with my uncle where I was always with him, I mean we had our conversations in particular after my father died. I was able to grow up with him in a more adult way. I think what it comes down to is, why not him? And yes he didn't necessarily want to be. To go out there and solicit votes, raise money. He was very comfortable in my opinion during the work he had been doing. Right? And the impact that derived from his work. So I think that there was probably hesitancy, reluctance, but I think it came back to the reality that I could do it too, in many ways. And I did the work to create the district, and my brother's mayor. And so I think all those types of feelings might have played a part into it before making his final decision. And obviously history has shown the results.
Mike Donato [00:26:19] You talked about this a little bit but your father and uncle, I mean they were a real team from every sense of the word. Tell me a little bit about their relationship from your perspective.
Cordell Stokes [00:26:30] Oh, just like anybody else's brother and brother and sister relationship, the good, the bad, and the ugly. But the bottom line is that the tie-in is that they're brothers. They had great leadership from our grandmother about creating that solidarity. And they were two different people in many respects. Right? And so it's no different from any other family dynamic. But the bottom line is love was unconditional. Any issues that would arise they work through it just like any of us. Then the other thing is they protected one another the best way. And my father probably in many more ways because he was that very aggressive political-minded- And I can give you an example of why I'm making mention to this. All the years we were growing up in New York My uncle was running the Congressional district caucus here. And so you're talking about the politics that comes with it. There are issues. So a statement would be made I got to fly into Cleveland to go help Lou. And that was his face. So you want to I'm going to take you or I m not taking you this trip. And then there was some other verbiage. No need for me to carry that on. But the point is that no matter where we lived politically they were tied together. And he would not have anybody do anything to his brother that he would deem to slight him or to be abusive toward him in any kind of way. And so they were thick as thieves from that standpoint.
Mike Donato [00:28:20] Lou went on to obviously an amazing career and not a surprise but from someone who maybe was a little bit hesitant about going for it. What did your dad say about his success and how did he feel about what Lou went on to achieve that he witnessed in his lifetime?
Cordell Stokes [00:28:39] He gave him the opportunity to be successful. [laughs] That's the first thing he's going to say. Now, that's tongue in cheek. But that's his brother. And many people, as I used to always say, they say you're Carl's brother. Well, actually he's Lou's brother. He's the younger one. Right? So those kind of dynamics always created some smiles and what have you But between the two of them he was very proud of what his brother had accomplished up until which was extraordinary. Some of the big cases the Iran-Contra Affair representation on Martin Luther King's assassination, John F. Kennedy and on and on. The things he did on behalf of the health community, veterans community, small-business community, were extraordinary to that time. And that's all he could know is up until 1996, and then he was very supportive of him to get that appointment to the Seychelles Islands. So he was very very proud of his brother. And out of the reluctance, listen, Lou Stokes had great skill sets. And whatever he did it was within his skill set and he took advantage of making sure that, number one, he did not placate. He was a very serious man when he came, you know, because he used to prepare me as I started entering into my business career and what have you about you got to be prepared you got to read your material if you're on a board or what have you and be very thoughtful and judicious about you know how you go about your business. When people pay you, they're paying you for results or for you to exact whatever the requirement is. Don't play with people's money. Be very serious about your business So he had those attributes. And so therefore my father saw all of that. He knew Lou Stokes was no joke. He knew that from day one.
Mike Donato [00:30:57] You were always close with Lou, your uncle, and said especially after your father passed then that bond tightened a little bit. What made Lou special as a person?
Cordell Stokes [00:31:08] From your perspective just like I shared earlier about sometimes people have a different perception about people who are prominent in the community about what they do in their home. My uncle was the same way very committed to the family jovial joked all the time had big-time laughs all day long, could tell a story. He was just special from that. That's the balance that you want. Very caring. Listen. I've spoken with my uncle about things that I've never even talked to my father about. Not that I wouldn't, because I was cut short, but him taking on the secondary father role of me at the conclusion of his death we had a chance to grow together. So from 25 - I'm 48 at this point - I've had many years to go through some things and very confidential discussions in a myriad of ways. So he has great flexibility very nimble in how he could conduct himself in life which would obviously be inclusive of business politics family etc. And from my perspective now I can t tell you his dealings with everyone else I've always found him to be very truthful about what he had to say to me. So I never second-guessed what he shared with me. And so when you have that type of relationship then it brings about the kinds of confidences that will be required to be able to move your relationship to the next level.
Mike Donato [00:32:56] Great. I'll do a little more plotting.
Cordell Stokes [00:33:00] Sure.
Mike Donato [00:33:01] I'll walk those over. Just pause for one second.
Cordell Stokes [00:33:04] Sure.
Mike Donato [00:33:04] How you good on time?
Cordell Stokes [00:33:06] Yeah. I'm here with you. Feel it.
Mike Donato [00:33:09] Yeah absolutely.
Cordell Stokes [00:33:10] He was never too big for the room.
Mike Donato [00:33:11] No and I'd have one time with Virgil Dominic and they were telling stories together about their old days. And I was able to sit back and just listen to those two talk about. Remember that night when you called and this was happening and it was- It's a great experience.
Cordell Stokes [00:33:24] You hear them get to laughing and- Yeah, very- Yeah that's- I think. Yeah.
Mike Donato [00:33:32] Good good. Okay, Cordell. Sure. Let's go look back into to your. Your uncle a little bit. You've talked about this but let's be specific. What was him that made him a great congressman?
Cordell Stokes [00:33:47] He was a gentleman, number one.
Mike Donato [00:33:50] Could you start by saying, "My uncle was a gentleman," and go from there? I'm sorry.
Cordell Stokes [00:33:54] Sure. My uncle was a gentleman, number one. He also took to heart what his predecessor, I can't think of the congressman who he replaced, you know, when they did the redistricting. But he had high regard for him and they took him under his wing, both Republicans and Democrats, you know not everyone but a good core of the ones in the early days, to teach him what being a congressman was all about. And to be an effective congressional member was to be able to deal with people of other thought processes. Right? And then to work out how to get a deal done so that they can get some things for their community and he can come back home and deliver to his community. And being a student, that was a part of the process. But then there's other things you have to do. Learning the legalities of proper process and- And he always dealt with other individuals with respect. And I think that's the key, and kind of dovetails into what you and I were just talking about which results in his humbleness and the fact- And that's another thing I have not mentioned which is for both of them, in particular my uncle. We are no better than anyone else. The other thing that was taught to us, in particular I know with me it was shared with me on many occasions from both of them and for certain reasons to protect me. Whatever name they built under Stokes is what they built. We have the advantage of doing some things that can take advantage of the name that has been built, but you have to build who you are and build your reputation and then they'll know that you're a Stokes, by the way you do your work.
Mike Donato [00:36:04] Great, very nice. Do you know what- Do you ever have an opportunity to talk to your uncle about- I mean, he did so much in Congress but is there one or two things that he was processed of of having accomplished as a congressman?
Cordell Stokes [00:36:23] Whew! It's a lofty- I mean sometimes it's overwhelming. And then, even during this 50th commemorative project I've even I thought I knew just about anything I could pretty much know. But there's so many other things I did not know that he had accomplished because you know I mean it was just too much. As an example many times when he was going to go to the floor even if I was in college in San Diego or wherever I was living, he'd make sure either a staff member or if he was speaking to me the night before make sure to watch me I'm going to be on the floor talking about X Y and Z. So, when I look at all of his accomplishments, I mean I'm just going to say National Institution of Health. I mean the veterans, small business. When just as an example he and Dan Golden with NASA had the Stokes Mentor Protege Program because of the commitment to developing minority businesses. So I don't want to pigeonhole anything because he put his hands into a lot, and then you have to talk about things that because he was in leadership there were many other congressional members that didn't have the stature and would go to him to kind of be the go-between with other people to try and make deals happen. So I will not be able to pigeonhole anything. I don't know if it might be fair enough to even say I don't know how the naming of my grandmother's post office ranks with everything else he did because of the type of love and admiration and respect they had for my grandmother and by them going back to get the post office named after her up on Warrensville. That could possibly be right at the top of his charts but I don't know. But he's proud of a lot of things he's done because impacted such a broad spread spectrum of people from rich down to the poor.
Mike Donato [00:38:36] How did he influence you as a person, Cordell?
Cordell Stokes [00:38:41] He influenced me to be the type of business professional that I am and to grow up every year. As an example, he shared with me a long time ago, which I've incorporated and found a benefit as I started getting into my professional career in my mid 20s going into my latter 20s, is about taking time for yourself to do a critical evaluation of who you are and what you're doing and where you're going. He used to always tell me no one can be more critical to yourself than you because you can't lie to yourself. And doing a full evaluation every year, trying to figure out where you need to be, how far you've come how short, what things you need to do to be better, X, Y, and Z, that was very helpful to me and had great impact just by that. Also just being there always in communication. Anything transpired Just him being available always touchable,
Mike Donato [00:39:55] It's been a few generations since they began in power their time in office. How do you see their influence on these next generations? If you look at something today or over the last 10 years, how have they influenced our generations?
Cordell Stokes [00:40:14] Well I think number one it gives inspiration to young people that you can be anybody that you want. And as long as you have the qualifications and skills and X, Y, and Z, to be able to pursue it and ultimately achieve it you would think that there would have been more of an impact. Now, of course you had when my father was elected mayor then you had a succession of mayors right Gibson and Newark and on and on Maynard and Atlanta Bradley L.A., et cetera. So it had impact from that standpoint. But really this political system today is not- Would not be conducive to what they knew it to be. So if you re thinking about an impact on the system it actually has gone in a different direction. Number one here in Cleveland when we reference the district caucus you had a collection of Black leadership community leaders, activists, ward leaders, precinct leaders, elected officials all working together in concert not without issue But There was for years a time that Cleveland was seen by all national politicians with this caucus and what they would do in working together to elect people in their district and around that are going to be in concert with the needs of the people. They had a lot of power, and that was constituted right in this district here and set precedent that allowed for presidential candidates to make sure they flew in to be a part of the parade. That is not the process anymore. You have micro groups, small groups of politicians that work together. So the collective has kind of gone away in my opinion. Then you talk about in Congress. Everything I shared with you that he learned from the preceding leaders about respect and how to conduct business and how to negotiate. You have more congressional people retiring early to go back into the private sector because the culture of that body is not what it had been before. And I guess the biggest example would be, it was a Republican Congress that basically pushed the state civil rights throw with a big push in hand with Lyndon Johnson as your Democrat leader. So I mean you have that mindset, I think you see it every day. So I think that from an individual standpoint especially in the very beginning, and then in other cities. As an example you got Maynard Jackson when he was elected as mayor of Atlanta You take the airport project down there that s now named after Hartsfield Jackson which Hartsfield's family did not want to have his name. However, we call him like the father of the DBE program You know he was able to force through his own politics a way to get more and more African Americans and other minorities involved in the multi billion-dollar project that would not have had access without his leadership So you had immediate actions and the blueprint that they could follow of, you know, what Carl Stokes did here to open up city hall et cetera So that s pretty much where I think we would want to leave that discussion without too much more detail. Read between the lines.
Mike Donato [00:44:05] You've been back and forth to Cleveland over the years. You've been back here, what, for the last four or five years?
Cordell Stokes [00:44:11] Since 2013. Mm-hmm.
Mike Donato [00:44:14] This is kind of an abstract question but what do you think your father would think of Cleveland right now? What's happening with Cleveland. Cleveland's had ebbs and flows, obviously as all cities. What do you think his perspective would be on where we are as a city and a community right now?
Cordell Stokes [00:44:30] Oh, that's another one. Because where his mindset was back in the '80s, I could talk about his real. Well first of all he'd respect Mayor Jackson. That's number one. So I could tell you that. Now, in 2017, I'm just going to take him from the '80s. Okay. So the schools was a big issue and the funding of it. And he used to always talk about it. But he was a judge so he used to take it almost to the line politically and sometimes catch, you know ,lash back forth. And he was in a big battle with George Forbes and others at that time. However some of the principals like don't forget about the Cleveland Schools. Obviously, we've had quite a bit of trouble. The advent of more and more charter schools he was opposed to because it would detract away from the schools and the funding needed. So he was all about making sure the integrity of the public school system needed to be addressed. And if it's hampered today, we need to continue to work at it. Now I know that Mayor White got in got you know took over the schools. I don't want to get into the details because there's pluses and minuses, but I'm giving you a framework from which he was working from. The other thing was about leaving Cleveland. Don't do it. Keep your home. Stay invested in the city of Cleveland because in the future they're going to try and rework this to bring more white people back. And you're seeing that the development of Downtown. Now, I can tell you for sure from you know we're totally different in 2017 from 1980. I mean, technology is greater the economy is different dynamics are different. And so over time you have to change and you have to sometimes accept some things to get to another. Right? Well if we're just staying right where he was at that time I could tell you he would be opposed to all of the heavy development Downtown and the lackluster development in the inner core. What's going on? Why would I say that? Because it was very important to him that African Americans have the same access as white people. And the way Kinsman in Union and Mount Pleasant and Ward 1 used to be a place to live, a destination place to go, restaurants, all sorts of activities. I always lean in because I'm in business and I go into different cities to penetrate markets. And you want to be in a position to recruit talent to you. You can't recruit talent to go into Mount Pleasant or into the Harvard community. It's not conducive to a professional where, remember we were losing a lot of talent. Well when you're trying to attract new talent, our communities are not necessarily built to sustain the attraction. Now some areas over in Hough has done a good job. Fannie Lewis when she started that and on the continuation of other leaders in the community. But overall I could tell you the schools would be a big concern to him. Where they are today and the fact that there's been more lenience in going into charter schools and other types of schools, vocational schools, and they're diminishing. And it's existing not only here but around the country, would be a concern to him because everybody's not going to go get a degree. Plus, many people that suffered the worst during the economy we alluded to earlier was because everybody had degrees. But the ones that kept working were the ones that had a vocational skill of some sort in many ways. And that's what we teach out here too. I mean there's a balance. It's just not the end to all. So he is a big proponent on vocational skill sets just as well as education of course. So I think that schools, housing, the dynamic I think he might have taken a different approach to the development of this economy. But then again too we didn't have what we just left with the economy from '08 and what dynamics now exist. So he might have to be a little bit more creative et cetera. Never know. But I think those are some core areas of concern. And hold on one more point. The loss of all these hospitals. Mount Sinai, and X, Y, and Z, that for one reason or another. Access to emergency care and other things are something also that would have been very important to him.
Mike Donato [00:49:32] Absolutely. Let's talk a little bit about this project on the anniversary of the 50th of being elected, your father being elected, Tri-C and the city's undertaking this Stokes Commemorative Project? What does this mean to you and your family to have something like this going on?
Cordell Stokes [00:49:53] Well I think it's extraordinary. I was speaking with a client of mine the other day and he brought it up because he was from out of state and he was down in Arkansas recently for the Black Professional Administrators Conference and saw some of the display that they had down there because some of the leadership exists from up here. To see President Johnson and his team take on ownership of this and all of the community partners at every level to come together to not just put on an anniversary celebration. The thing I was sharing with a client of mine is that the justice of this really comes down that there's going to be white papers that are going to come out of this, teaching tools for our future to look back at things that did work, didn't work, things we could incorporate, new relationships being built by community partners. So this is- It is a celebration of the two of them. And as President Johnson spoke with me in the very beginning that it was dedicated for my father. Right? But that many of the people around stakeholders said you can't do it without Lou. Which is true. And plus his sustaining participation here in the community to ensure the upliftment of this entire city. So I mean I think that that's the biggest thing is that the approach has been not just a celebration of party but more of a celebration party but also in the academia type of environment to see how Cleveland can further propel itself into the century by looking back at the last 50 years and what has transpired. So I think that that's the most beautiful part about it is because you know we've had building dedications and all sorts of things over the many years and for the things that they both accomplish they do that. But I think what they would be most appreciative of is what the long-term result could be for future constituents here in the city and business environment.
Mike Donato [00:52:13] Let's talk about that perspective, Cordell. Let's look at maybe some of the young people in particular. This is going to be a standing exhibit after the share. So why would this project be important for young people moving forward?
Cordell Stokes [00:52:31] We're only as good as our past understanding of it because the future has to be able to propel itself, evolution. As I was sharing with my business partner the other day, the athletes in the and were great at this time but we are nothing like these athletes today. Now, skill sets and all that, that's you know, details, but evolution is evident. So for young people you re going to get older, God willing. And so and as you get older and as time continues because time waits on no one, that clock continues to tick. And as that year rolls around whatever is happening in this world you know this is a different, different world than even just a year or so ago when President Obama was here. And we have to change in a very nimble and flexible way to deal with new leadership the way this leadership is taking us so that we could be supported. So for our young people today it's important for them to have this access of information and number one to know that Cleveland was a beginning place of extraordinary feat during a very, very difficult time. Very un- It was not a very inviting timeframe for African Americans. And so I think it's important for our young people to get that understanding but also understand what came about from all of the prejudice and the environment that was created in the '60s and '50s. That two Black men who started out on Quincy in a rickety house with nothing to public housing that was an upgrade, to the fact that they were able to move on and make distinguishing achievements in this society, irregardless of from where they come from, but that there's also other individuals like them who also grew up in the same area, Judge Harper and many others, who similarly go through it. So it also gives access to to young people to learn about some of our older guard by way of this commemorative project who have come together to hear their story and be able to work with their family and other mentors to continue to make a plan for them to one day, 50 years later when they get into their career be, have something that they could reflect on that has made some major impact in this society. Society that they learned from this commemorative project and just propelled whatever that issue may be into that new future for the benefit of all mankind.
Mike Donato [00:55:24] Great answer. I've got one more for you. You mentioned this a little bit but what does it mean for you to carry on the Stokes name and the Stokes legacy?
Cordell Stokes [00:55:39] Well, it's important for me to want to be the type of man that, in particular because over time my uncle really had more of an involvement as I was coming out of my early 20s. But my father always from the beginning he wants you to do this be the best that you can be. But it really became impacted because as a younger adult you're starting to really get into where you need to be. Because of what was told to me about being very cautious about the Stokes name and how you use it, I think it becomes, well I do know what I really enjoy is that because I help so many people for non-payment, where I just help people navigate certain things. It's a joy to see the ultimate result especially when it's positive and I'm able to have a direct impact in helping someone. That's where the legacy ties in. Now, the other side is what my uncle had shared is that you don't have to be a politician. He said we did that at it's appointed time but the things we did was to create an atmosphere that you can now go make money and sustain your family in whatever you want to do. So because you know you don't necessarily make money, you know those that do make money, that's a problem in politics because it's not meant to do that. But some do. But for him for both of them but in particular my uncle it's the platform that is now created for all of us to be able to achieve on an equitable standard. In many cases of course you have some natural things you're not going to eradicate racism, institutional racism. But the point is that you now have a society where you can actually go after certain positions, start your own company like I did, where you didn't think about that many years ago in many cases. But you can do anything, just about, that you want, as long as you're prepared. And so I think that that's where I look at the legacy to really be something that I really reflect on in a positive manner.
Mike Donato [00:58:09] Did you have the need to give back a little bit because of the way you were raised and watching with your family?
Cordell Stokes [00:58:17] Don't think it's a need. I think it's just within me. You know, there's, you know with my father running around and the things I used to listen to him firsthand or going to meetings and seeing what he was going to try and do to help people get jobs. Even when he was judged whatever it is always staying involved. And then with my uncle when he would come into town, pick me up and I'd drive with him for the whole day and see how he's interacting I mean it was a great feeling to walk into Tri-C Downtown on 30th when they would give away all the clothing and the food and the big party and what have you and to see the faces of kids who were my age. I wasn't getting anything. You know it wasn't for me, it was for his constituents. So seeing that is a remarkable feeling. But if there was one thing I didn't like that I did get out of and that tied into you know you can get into business et cetera, is you know it's a demanding job people calling on you. Now, over my years I've had, you know, I've been in positions of community where I've had to deal with a massive number of people. Similarly in Las Vegas, where I was one of the founders of our Black Caucus out there in which, while I was going through the formation of it, my uncle was the one that recommended I put a political action committee to it so we could deal with the political infrastructure. So I mean I had to deal for several years and actually got burned out from that and maintaining a director position at the same time. But I was doing the right thing. But that was one of the areas I saw as, you know, if you're going to do it and do it like my uncle or like my dad you got to be all in. And that could be a 24-hour thing and then that could impact your family. So I like my free time and I try to take advantage of my free time with my wife, et cetera. So I just come to respect the demands of that type of job and the fact that I've been groomed in business and government relations. So I've always intertwined. I've never been fully removed because I've lobbied federally. So I mean I've been in the game. So I'm not totally removed from all of the interaction. But it always is a good feeling. It's innate to me to try and find a way to help someone.
Mike Donato [01:01:01] I'm just going to just go off the one point you made. Then I'll let you go.
Cordell Stokes [01:01:04] Sure.
Mike Donato [01:01:04] You talked about the 24-hour commitment that they both had. Talk a little bit about people maybe they don't think about that other politicians whatever but let's talk about the commitment that they had in their roles to serve and and what it took, the toll it took.
Cordell Stokes [01:01:24] It would be interesting for my cousins to describe that to you in particular with my uncle because they had a longer opportunity to really go through that from an elected standpoint. I'm just telling you a public servantm in regards to Carl and Louism if they're doing their job right as my uncle used to say because a friend of mine was elected to Congress one year in Nevada and he's an African American who my uncle met and really took a liking to when he visited with me in Vegas a couple of times, but he lost his race right away and had moved to D.C. My uncle used to always say if you're doing your job you should never lose an election. And what is that job? It's what Tip O'Neill told him Lou you don't live in D.C. your constituents are in Cleveland. So understanding your commitment is to people as a public servant. You can't put a timeline on that when they elect you because it's not just one person that elected you. It's a number of especially if you're in Congress. So you had a lot of people if they elected you or even if they didn't vote for you, since you're the representative, just like Donald Trump is our president. I have expectations of Donald Trump. I didn't vote for him but now he's our president. I respect the voting electorate but I have expectations of service of areas of concern to me. And so similarly with those two, Carl and Louis, they understood people expected them to represent their interests and their needs every day, not just Monday through Friday. And so you had to be in front of your constituents. And obviously my uncle had a much longer sustaining career in having to do that and he lavished it but he also was tired but he was committed to the process. So every public servant if they re doing their job right will have the same story that this is not a time limitation. If you're elected for just two years and you're termed out after two years them two years your public is going to work I tell you. Last thing I'll bring to your attention Mike like my father said long time long time ago when he asked for people to vote for him and they voted for him and he became elected Let me tell you something. They didn't wait till the next day to start asking for something. It started right away. And they had every right to feel that way whether they actually casted the vote or not. Because now you're in a position of responsibility to care for whatever that constituency base is.
Mike Donato [01:04:23] Great. That should do it. Thank you so much.
Cordell Stokes [01:04:25] Okay well it's my pleasure. [crosstalk] Thank you so much for your time. Yep. It's been a pleasure.
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