Abstract
Betty Pinkney and her husband, Arnold, were long time advocates for the Stokes brothers. Arnold helped elect Louis to Congress and was a major strategist for the Democratic party. Arnold Pinkney, an insurance executive, also ran Jesse Jackson's national campaign for President in 1984. This 2017 interview was collected as part of a yearlong, community-wide commemoration of the 50th anniversary of Carl Stokes' election as mayor of Cleveland.
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Interviewee
Pinkney, Betty (interviewee)
Interviewer
Perry, Dee (interviewer); Hickey, Christine (participant); Taylor, Jacob (participant)
Project
Stokes: Honoring the Past, Inspiring the Future
Date
4-28-2017
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
87 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Betty Pinkney interview, 28 April 2017" (2017). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 501004.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/1219
Transcript
Dee Perry [00:00:04] We are here at Corporate College on Friday, April 28, 2017 with Betty Pinkney and I'm going to ask questions related to the Stokes Commemoration Project. I'm Dee Perry and later in the conversation we'll also have questions perhaps from Jacob Taylor and Christine Hickey. And Betty is B,E,T,T,Y and Pinkney, P,I,N,K,N,E,Y. And so we begin, and I want to start Betty with talking about what was the place where you grew up, what was the name of the city or town?
Betty Pinkney [00:00:40] I grew up in Albion, Michigan, which is a small town in Michigan with about a population of perhaps 12,000 at that time. It's about 100 miles west of Detroit, a very, very pleasant little small town where we all knew each other. It was in those days near Battle Creek, Michigan. You know of that? Cereal City?
Dee Perry Uh huh.
Betty Pinkney And I was from a family of five.
Dee Perry [00:01:10] And did your parents come from someplace south or was that-
Betty Pinkney [00:01:17] Yes, my mother came from Kentucky and my father came from Alabama and he migrated during the Great Migration period to Albion and my mother likewise and they kind of met and that's how our family started. He had relatives, as you know, familiar story. He came as a young man and found work and established himself and met my mother and we just had a very nice family life in Albion, Michigan. Oh no, it wasn't Cuyahoga County, that's here in Cleveland. It was a little bit later, Calhoun County, Michigan. Yes.
Dee Perry [00:02:09] As you were coming of age, what were you seeing around you in Albion in terms of race relations and maybe how politics work? Did you pay attention to that?
Betty Pinkney [00:02:22] Race relations? I lived in a mixed community. Our next door neighbors were Italian and other whites across, you know, on this street that I lived on, I'd say we lived- Our street was probably between an all white community and probably an African predominant African American community. But so I didn't. My elementary school was mixed. We had one high school and I didn't really feel a lot of race relations type problems in the early years. My first recollection of that was when I was in the fifth grade. One of my good friends was white and one day she came to my desk and told me that she couldn't play with me anymore because I was colored. And that was very shocking and it really hurt. I went home and told my mother and I cried because we played, we went- Well, we were just in the fifth grade but we had always been, you know, gone to school together and- And that was probably my first recollection of a race-related issue. And the next was when I was probably in 11th grade and I went to this- This is a very small town. So truck stop has a different definition than it does here. But nevertheless, it was a small restaurant where trucks would stop on the main street. And so I went there to ask for a job. And they told me that they didn't hire coloreds. That's what we were called at that time. And I was hurt, but I was angry because I'm thinking this is a truck stop. Well, there was probably something in that too that was discriminatory because I felt a truck stop. These are hardcore people passing through town with no established residences and all that. And I'm from a good home and a churchgoing family and I'm getting ready to go to college and all that. So all of that. But those are the two instances that come to my mind immediately as it relates to race relations politically. I don't recall much about that. I know my parents were members of the NAACP and they used to go to regular meetings. Other than that, there probably wasn't much as a child that I recall in which there was involvement in politics. And I suppose my political. Even as I went to college, I went to Albion College. And when Arnold came to Albion, he came to go to college there. And later on that was probably my first introduction to anything politically because even then he seemed to always be fighting something or standing up for something.
Dee Perry [00:05:40] Yes, and you mentioned Arnold in terms of Albion College. But I wonder, once you were together, if he talked about his growing up in Youngstown? What do you know about his childhood and growing up?
Betty Pinkney [00:05:57] He grew up in Youngstown from a very stable family, as did I. His father worked in a steel mill and his mother was a domestic. His father was a deacon in the church and his mother was a member of the Usher Board, a Baptist church, Third Baptist Church. I remember that so clearly. And so they were just a good, sound, hard working, church going family. He was very active in school. His leadership skills probably started, I would say, in the first grade. But he was a good student, an outstanding athlete, and he liked. He loved all sports, played all sports, lettered in all sports. I think he ended up with 12 letters because he played all sports and he was president of athletic club and president of his graduating class. And he just. He also. He was a person that always worked. He worked in a bakery, he sold newspaper. He had a paper route which was probably one of the larger routes in Youngstown at that time, particularly for the area that he covered. And he always told that he hired other people to work Other kids to help him out. And he was always the one in charge of this route was probably his style through life. But his father died three months before he graduated from high school. He was very close to his father, and he just never quite seemed to have gotten over that. They were very close. He learned a lot from his father. His father was vice president of the Mahoning County Republican, one of the vice chairs of the Republican Party. And his mother was a precinct committee woman. So you see, there was always family and politics in his family. And he said his father. He learned a lot from his father about politics. And he just- It was a long time before he really. So when his father passed, then he had to kind of assume responsibility for his family. He was the youngest of five children, so the others weren't. Not all five children were there. But he, you know, started to work. He worked some in the steel mill, which was a job that he liked. But nevertheless, he did that to help his mom. I didn't know his parents. His father. I didn't know him when his father passed. And he was in college when his mother passed. So my mother and I went to Youngstown to her funeral. But they obviously were very, very loving parents and gave him a good foundation, which attributed to the type of person he became in later life. And he learned a lot from his parents. He had an active. He once- I heard him say he was a bad child. One of these perfect kids that never got in trouble. And he- I remember him saying his first one of his. He was very competitive too. One of his first disappointments was when I think he lost. I'm going to say baseball, basketball game after two winning seasons. And in a list of things about what you remember about your life, he named that as number one, perhaps because of his age as a young [person], that's his first recollection of something that disappointed him. But that was one. That first time they lost after two winning seasons. But he always loved sports.
Dee Perry [00:10:09] And you two met at Albion College?
Betty Pinkney [00:10:12] Yes.
Dee Perry [00:10:13] What was your first impression of Arnold?
Betty Pinkney [00:10:16] It was a while before he came to Albion College. Albion College was a small private Methodist school. And he and four African American males came to Albion College on a scholarship. So that means out of an enrollment of perhaps a thousand, there might have been six African Americans coming to a small town. Naturally, they attracted a lot of attention. Now, when he came, I was only 14, so I didn't, wasn't all that impressed and wasn't around them that much. My older sister knew of them because she was of that age and a college age herself. But we kind of got to know each other by the time I was in the 12th grade. And he was a student teacher in my history class. And by then we became friendly and got to know each other better. He was a senior in college, and I was a senior in high school. So we dated some with supervision. Because those were the days we'd go to the movie and my mother would go with us. And so those were the days that we got to know each other. He played sports in college. My father liked sports. So he would go to the campus and watch them play anyway. And then he would come to our house on Friday nights. Back then they had Friday night fights, I think it was. And he would come over and watch. And of these four African American young men who came to Albion, each kind of ended up belonging. Being adopted by one family. And he kind of ended up with our family. So. And of course, everybody liked all of them. And, you know, the family they wanted. Parents wanted to cook, be sure they ate well and all of that. He was there on an academic scholarship. He was switched, which means whether he continued in sports or not, he had to maintain. I think it was a B average, which he did. So even if something happened and he didn't continue in sports, probably, maybe if he didn't, yes, continue in sports, he still could continue to go to college. As long as he kept that B average. So that was always very important to him. So, as I say, we met, got to know each other better, and then we each graduated. So he went- I went to college at home. I have a twin sister. So we went to college at home, at Albion College. And then he went to the service and ultimately moved to Cleveland. And then relationship resumed, I would say, after he got out of the service, he'd come back to Albion to visit me and all. So it was a good time for both of us.
Dee Perry [00:13:39] At what point did you say, this is the man of my future? When did you know that?
Betty Pinkney [00:13:50] It would have been after he came back. He tells the story, which is embarrassing, on one tape I watched when he graduated and I graduated. I guess I was 17 or 18. And so then he went on off to the service, and we continued. I have nice letters that he wrote me even in. And so at that time, he tells the story of what we called then a Dear John. Well, I was only 17 when he left and started to date. And also, I thought it was only fair that I let him know that, you know, I was dating and all. And he never forgot that. But nevertheless, after he got out of the service, we resumed our relationship. And it continued, I guess, to answer. By the time when he got out and we started to. In. The relationship resumed. I realized then that this is a person that I ought to be with the rest of my life. And my family liked him, too. My mother, who was very strict, and my father. He was, but he was- They were both very loving people, but particular when. When I was a junior in college, Arnold asked for my hand in marriage. I can see us now. We were sitting on the piano bench, and he asked my mom if he could marry me. And she said, no, she has to finish college. That was important to her because, you know, education was really, really important. And you get that first and then other things come. So we had a nice relationship then, and I taught a year in Grand Rapids, and then we married and I came to Cleveland in '50 - oh, that seems so long ago - in '57.
Dee Perry [00:16:00] For you, was there much contrast between Albion and Cleveland when you came to town? How did it seem like as a place to live?
Betty Pinkney [00:16:12] Just spatially, I'd say it was just a larger town physically, because, as I said, I lived in a small town where you knew everybody and families were close and all, you knew your neighbors. And when I moved here, we lived in an apartment building, so that was new for me. I taught school and Arnold was in law school and that caught the bus sometimes. Sometimes he'd give me a ride to school. There wasn't a marked difference that caused any problem because it was comfortable, it was an easy transition. And he. When I came, I just have to laugh when I think about him because when we married, my intention was to become a housewife. And so I, you know, my sister and I didn't have to do much in cooking and all of that type of thing because my mother cooked, my father cooked, my older sister. So all we had to do was go to college and we had nice little jobs. I worked in the administration office and. And she worked in the sports complex. So I thought after we married, well, now I'll learn how to be a good wife. Well, we were hardly home from honeymoon when he took me down to the Board of Education because at that time they needed teachers and he saw this article indicating that they needed more educators. So I was able to go to work almost immediately, which I like. So he, you know, he was always interested in. We worked. Let's say we worked as a team, and he was kind of the team leader at that point.
Dee Perry [00:18:08] Was he working for Prudential Insurance?
Betty Pinkney [00:18:15] No, at that time he was with Great Lakes. He was with Great Lakes and then he worked. That was an African American Insurance Company. He was very successful with that. Then he went with Great Lakes, I'm sorry, with Prudential. And he became very, very successful with Prudential. And he was also going to law school and he ran out of money. I was teaching and he was selling insurance. But he felt that he needed to generate more income, so he started selling insurance. And he really liked it. He liked people. And he found that it was very easy for him to sell insurance because he didn't meet any strangers. You need insurance. So this is something he could do. And he was very successful at it. And so that's how he happened to have stayed in the insurance business. And then after being with Great Lakes for a while, then he was hired by Prudential. Once he gave a speech called One Last Call, and he was telling how he was searching for employment and he wanted to go with a larger company. And his One Last call was to Prudential. After that, I suppose he was going to try something else and they hired him. And it was to their advantage that he went to work for them because he was very successful and became a member of the Million Dollar Roundtable for four or five years, which meant million dollars in production, not income, as some people would often ask. He was very, very successful at that. And then finally he decided that he was never going to achieve more than an agent status with Prudential and his. It's just in his spirit to rise to the top and be a leader. So that's when he and Charles Pearl started Pinkney Perry Insurance Agency. And of course, he was with them probably 45 years before he retired from the insurance business. So that became a lifelong. And it was probably good because it allowed him the freedom to do a plethora of other things that he liked and that attracted him. And he became so involved in the community that insurance was probably because, you know, it's not like you're selling all day, every day.
Dee Perry [00:21:13] And speaking of the community, during the time that he was building his business, he was also an activist for civil rights. And I wanted to have you talk about some of the things that he was involved in in the community in terms of protesting and action and politics.
Betty Pinkney [00:21:36] My recollection of his community started with Phyllis Wheatley. He headed the Membership Drive, and he was very successful in that. And I think that's one of the ways he started to become known. He chaired the Membership Drive and he asked me to. We worked together on a lot of things to put a women's committee together. And I did, and that was successful. And he. The next recollection is he got involved with the NAACP, where he became vice president of the NAACP. He was active also in NIEU, which was an organization that Jim Brown and some of the athletes started, the Negro Industrial Economic Union. And it was to promote economic advancements for minorities. And it was big at that time. It was Jim Brown and Bobby Mitchell and some of the other athletes who were local, you know, involved with the Browns at that time. And then he was with Citizens League and a number of other community organizations. Arnold was early on he just seemed to navigate toward those that had. Whose goal was empowerment, economic improvement, civil rights, education, all of the above was the kind of things that he was in all at once almost. But that was just in him, in his spirit, gifts he was given and people sought him out and he liked it because there were things that appealed to him and needs that he saw that needed to be addressed. So he. That's kind of where he was at that time. I was looking. Someone gave my daughter an article that told when Arnold was appointed to the Board of Education. And I think that was in late. We married in '57, in the early '60s, and at that, in a 10-year period. It listed some of the organizations which I just mentioned that he was already involved in. And at that time he was 35, 36 or something like that. And that was before, probably before he got involved in political campaigns.
Dee Perry [00:24:26] Do you recall when he first crossed paths with Carl and or Louis Stokes, among his many pursuits?
Betty Pinkney [00:24:36] During insurance, early days of insurance, they had a bail bond service, he and Charles Perry. And they had very interesting stories to tell about that. But that's probably when he started to see particularly Lou Stokes, because Lou was practicing and he was involved in cases that were very challenging and that required that people have bail bond service. And I think that was probably when he started to see them, know them, each were lawyers. And after that it just kind of took off after that, because that was probably toward the mid, maybe mid-'60s. And then of course, other things started to happen and they seemed to have been attracted to each other.
Dee Perry [00:25:41] Yeah, it seems like they had similar goals.
Betty Pinkney [00:25:45] They did.
Dee Perry [00:25:50] So in the mid-'60s, Carl would have already gone to the Ohio legislature while Lou was still working as a lawyer. When he decided, when Carl decided to run for mayor in 1965, was Arnold involved in that process?
Betty Pinkney [00:26:07] Yes, Arnold was always involved in Carl's campaigns, even when he ran for the legislature. And I was too, because back then we had those terrible bed sheet ballots. And so- So the campaign was a little slightly different. And you always had to have people checking to see that folk were registered when they- And we did a lot of that. He was involved in the campaign even then, and he was involved in all of Carl's campaigns, ultimately becoming his campaign manager in, I guess it was '69. But yes, he was closely involved with them in the campaigns.
Dee Perry [00:26:56] Tell me about the campaign for legislature, because that's a story that I haven't heard before. What was the strategy for getting Carl elected and how were you involved in that too?
Betty Pinkney [00:27:11] Well, I was involved as a volunteer and the kind of things that volunteers do, you know, phone calls and checking signatures on petitions and all that type of thing. And he. Arnold, I cannot say specifically what he did. And I just know that I was involved because he was. And we knew. I mean, Carl was, you know, he had this magnetic personality and people just wanted to help him. And that was in their, I say, early days because there were certainly African American politicians in office before Carl Stokes. But he was probably the beginning of what at that time would be another generation. And we all were young then and wanted to be a part of that. And these campaigns were very exciting. And we always saw. You just felt if he ran, he could win and you wanted to be a part of that. And Arnold was a good. He wasn't managing his campaign then, but he brought to the table instincts of how to win. Each person is given certain talents, and Arnold certainly had his. Among his was organizing and generating interest, knowing how to put a plan together and all of that. So I don't know specifically what he did when Carl ran. I just know that he was involved in his campaign. And he would. In one of those campaigns, he would drive Carl around as he was, you know, campaigning. I had a picture someplace, couldn't quite locate it of Carl waving and Arnold driving. So he was always involved some level. And as the years progressed, he had more responsibility in those campaigns. His first campaign that I recall was for Judge White, Charles White, who was a judicial candidate. And I remember going over. They lived off of roughly in the Glenville area, I believe. And we went to his house. Just very, very. Just very refined people, he and his wife. And he was. I was so impressed with going to a judge's house because that had never. That had not something I had had an experience with. And we went and she served us dinner. And he invited Arnold to manage his campaign. And he did, and it was successful. He was already a judge. So he ran his reelection campaign, and that was successful. And he ran the campaign for Lloyd Brown early in the early years. So he started early. You know, he started early with all of that.
Dee Perry [00:30:11] When it came to the mayoral campaign, the first one, did you see a bigger organization being built? I mean, was it? Was there a structure for getting people out to knock on doors and those kinds of things?
Betty Pinkney [00:30:29] One of Arnold's strengths, two things he believed in strongly, was voter registration and get out the vote. And in order to do that, you had to have, do each of those. You had to have people trained, you had to have people already working groups already organized so that when it was time for that to happen, you had someone to rely on that knew what to do. So by the time Carl was running in his. Trying to get the year straight, but anyway, that would be his second campaign, I guess. But anyway, he- I was- I'm not real clear on what the organizational structure was before Arnold, because I know Dr. Clement ran a campaign, and so I believe Arnold ran the one after that. But you just- I just saw a structure come together. He believed- Arnold believed, one, in a lot of meeting, having a lot of meetings, but in so doing, you were able to determine- First, he believed in having a lot of meetings, and in so doing, you could see how your organization was working. He thought his kind of mantra was, you organize, strategize, and plan. As the saying goes, you plan your work and work your plan. And that's what he would do. And it was wonderful to see. It was so exciting to see this. As I said, I'm not sure what happened with the previous campaigns. I just know the car was running and everything. But to see the campaign come together in the wards, the excitement. In part of the excitement for me was that I had not had that kind of exposure before, but to go to the ward club meetings and to see the rallies put together and the car pools and the motorcades, and we did robocalls in, but to the phone calls and the strategy of all of that, and each peace required some organization. I worked a lot on phone banks, and that was an effort in itself because you had to get people together. You had to have days and times, and you had to get groups that would come in. And that was a part of the bigger picture of organizing a campaign. And to see all of that in place was. And that was basically the same structure he used for all of his campaigns. First, you know, to organize, to strategize and to plan and then hope for the best.
Dee Perry [00:33:42] And the best happened in November of 1967. Where were you on election night?
Betty Pinkney [00:33:51] You know, after- It took a while for the results to come in. And I believe I want to say like two or three o'clock in the morning. I could be wrong about that. But it was late and by then I think we had gone home because the counting was different. Now you push a button, results, all that back then, almost every precinct and all that had to be added up. I've seen one campaign where we thought the person had lost, but the counting errors determined that wasn't the case. But the counting, the tabulations and all that was almost by hand. So it took a long time to get results. So if I recall, we were at home in another election. I remember being down at headquarters down at the Rockefeller Building. So maybe so, but I. But anyway, he. Between the two, that's where. That's where we were specifically. And that was in each. Any victory is thrill of victory, agony of defeat. You know, we experienced both over the years. But one of the things he learned a lot, Arnold learned a lot about campaigning was the philosophy. What he learned in sports, he was able to transport that into campaigning because he said that in sports you have to be a team leader. You have to- He would assess the weakness of the opposition. You had to appreciate victories and you had to accept defeat. And in the middle of all that, put something together whereby an event would be successful. And he kind of carried that philosophy throughout all of his work in politics and organizing. Good at organizing, good at getting people to work and all that. And frequent meetings. I used to say, do we have to have another meeting and go the same thing? Yes, we do.
Dee Perry [00:36:18] I'm wondering what Arnold's role was as Carl Stokes began to put together his administration, his cabinet, his vision?
Betty Pinkney [00:36:30] Well, Arnold was Carl Stokes's executive assistant, so he helped select people for the cabinet. He understood Carl quite well and he knew what Carl's ambitions were and what his goals were. So he probably was a good choice as an executive assistant because he knew the arena that he was moving into and working in, and he was the perfect person to help to carry that out. He knew the Stokes well by then. So he had an idea of what Carl Stokes wanted and how that needed to happen based on his experience with them.
Dee Perry [00:37:19] And what did you see or hear or read about being Carl's vision? What did he say he wanted to achieve for the city?
Betty Pinkney [00:37:29] I think, you know, as you think back about Carl's campaign, and I see campaigns now, I don't know that it's all that different because you want a healthy city, you want a safe city. He co started the Urban Coalition which was amazing because that was something new because that gave business people in particular as well as local an opportunity to come together and strategize on how to make. I hate to say Cleveland a great city, but I don't use that terminology, but it has been used before, let me put it like that. But. And you wanted good, you wanted schools in which children could achieve healthy, healthy community, healthy people. So I don't know that his vision was all that different from what we hear people. People wanting today. Some, certainly safety was one. And I don't know that it was. I don't think it was. I don't think we had safety issues then, but we certainly had some. But I just don't think it was that different as I think back about what he wanted. And he started the "Cleveland: NOW!" program which was to generate funds for the benefit of the city. And that was a major project and something new. It was an electric time when Carl was. Because he was fresh and he was vibrant and he was charismatic. And he kept coming up with ideas to help the city help Cleveland. And you knew that he liked it, he enjoyed it.
Dee Perry [00:39:38] And in the background going on at the same time of his election was the campaign to address what had happened in redistricting, the 21st Congressional District. Talk a bit about how that unfolded because Arnold Pinckney was also involved in how that happened.
Betty Pinkney [00:40:03] Yes, he was involved in that. And of course it was during the time when districts were not aligned so that particularly African Americans had any hope of having congressional representation. And to the benefit of everyone, Lou became the legal counsel for that effort, taking it to all the courts or wherever the decision needed to be made. Lou was the person, he was just stellar in that effort to see to it that that got done. And the final result was the 21st District Caucus was carved out in which African Americans had an opportunity to have an elected representative in Congress. And it turns out as things happened, Lou was that person. And that worked well also because of who he was and what he was able to achieve as an outstanding and highly respectful respected congressman for 30 years, I believe.
Dee Perry [00:41:25] And when people talk about Carl Stokes, including you, they always say he was charismatic, he was electric. What would you say about Lou Stokes style of leadership?
Betty Pinkney [00:41:39] As I think about Carl and Louis, Carl attracted attention. Lou commanded attention. Carl was urban. Lou was studied and intentional. Carl, well, one of his other interests was he was a boxer and he had that competitive instinct. You know, Lou was calm and humble. Carl had some arrogance. It's not a criticism, it was just an observation. Lou was the most humble person you have probably ever met, Lou. Carl sometimes would just kind of shoot from the hips because it was instinctive for him. He just kind of knew what to do. Lou was studied. And for example, you never or I never ever saw Lou speak where he didn't have a written presentation, which he delivered wonderfully. You never saw him get up and just speak off the cuff. So that was. That was kind of a difference in them. Each person was successful in the path that they took and in the way that they delivered what they were doing. But it was kind of a marked difference in their personalities, as you see in children, in any family. Carl and Kazi said there was no question about Carl's charisma and his smile and his kind of playfulness sometimes. But he was a politician who understood politics and he. I think he was probably good at predicting outcomes, good at making choices in the people. He got to, as was Louis assist him. Arnold was, as I said, Carl's administrative executive assistant. And then when Lou was elected to Congress, he went to help Lou organize and set up and everything in his district in Washington, as well as working with them in the 21st caucus. So they were just aligned in a lot of ways. All along the way
Dee Perry [00:44:23] I was. I read a passage in. In Lou Stokes's autobiography, the Gentleman from Ohio, where he just-
Christine Hickey [00:44:31] Dee, can you please wait a minute?
Jacob Taylor [00:44:32] It's a lawnmower.
Dee Perry [00:44:32] Thank you. Yeah, I sort of heard it, but I wasn't paying attention.
[interviewer waits for lawnmower noise in background to abate] Dee Perry [00:45:28] So I was going to mention a passage that I read in Lou's book, the Gentleman from Ohio, where he's describing the meeting that, where he says, Carl actually said, Lou is going to be our candidate and Arnold is going to run that campaign. Lou writes that Arnold says he had to go check with Betty because he said he wasn't going to run any more campaigns. Yes. So what happened in that conversation? Obviously-
Betty Pinkney [00:46:01] When he called me - I see that so clearly in my mind - when he called me, I was in Michigan with family and I can see it. So I was standing at the sink and he called and he said, well, Lou is going to run for Congress and he wants me to be his campaign manager. And I said, okay, since it's Lou Stokes. Lou told that story so many times, but it was true, because that's exactly what I said. Because by then I thought Arnold was at the end stage of running campaigns. But it seemed to kick off a New era of campaigns subsequent to that. And that's exactly what happened. He. And then. And so the campaign, you know, got started and he was happy to be Lou's campaign campaign manager. And here again, I got involved in the campaign. And I remember when, just to show you how you link together in unusual ways, the day of Lou's kickoff, it was at a hotel and it was very nice. Someone asked my father was not well and someone asked about my father. I had come home to go come for the kickoff. And during that time my father passed. Perhaps that's why I was home then. I don't know. I just remember I was home at the time. But I certainly said if. Okay, since it's for Louis Stokes, because I did not anticipate. I didn't have the vision, I guess, or the short side. I guess I'm short sighted. It never. I just didn't think that his political life would extend for so long after that. But it did- But it was a great campaign. It was an exciting campaign to be campaigning for someone, a potential congressman. And all of the skills, all of the lessons. Arnold said that he learned a lot about politics from his father because I said his father. Father was vice chair of the Republican Party. And he also. So he used all of his skills learned and God given in Lou's campaign. And it was just a wonderful experience. And people just, you know, here again it was Stokes. Carl was elected, well, then in '67 and Louis in '68. So it was kind of a coming together. The usual people, the ones kind of were still together and anxious to come out again. Campaigning was fun at that, and it could very well be now, but it was a lot of fun back then because Arnold believed in energizing people and he liked a lot of activity. And so there was always something going on, always something to do. And once he had a voter registration drive that at that time registered more people than had been at any time in the history of this area. But he was very big on voter registration.
Dee Perry [00:49:39] And you said that the campaign for Lou Stokes kicked off a whole 'nother era. Had Arnold been thinking about not running campaigns anymore for a particular reason? Because nobody was running for anything that he was interested in promoting or because it was just so much work? I mean, why had he been thinking about not doing it anymore?
Betty Pinkney [00:50:04] Well, he had run campaigns and they were successful. So he just thought, well, I've been there and done that, you know, and at that particular time, and Carl had run and that was. He just finished Carl's campaign. And so we had that victory. He had that victory. And then with the success of the carving out of the 21st district, Lou's, and somebody, you know, Lou was responsible for that. And then somebody had to run. It was almost his interest. I won't even. I won't say it was revived. It was just reinstituted, started all over again. And I think after the Carl Stokes campaign, you thought, well, wow, we made it. We did something. We got a Black marriage. It was only 33% minority population in Cleveland at that time, so this was not an easy task. And, you know, on the heels of that, you probably think, well, you know, I did good, and so I'll go back to insurance or whatever was on his mind at the time. But it was. He said, well, I have to call my wife. Probably said, yes, but let me call my wife also. Because who would turn that opportunity down? Particularly when you had the kind of involvement with the family, with Cleveland, you're well known, you're well respected. Because he was certainly well respected. So it was just a natural. It was just something that was offered that you could not refuse and a challenge too.
Dee Perry [00:51:52] And so many other campaigns seem to come up that fit that description. After that, what were some of the highlights in terms of campaigns after Lou Stokes that took Arnold to a national level in terms of helping presidential campaigns?
Betty Pinkney [00:52:13] Well, one was that by now he's known and you know, Stokes going to Congress and that level of exposure that you would get. And after, you see, after Carl Stokes was elected, that introduced into Cleveland to a whole series of people. They wanted to know, how do you do this and who helps you do this? And how do you- How do Blacks get elected in major positions, particularly a- You're minority and you are the minority in a larger community. So. And Carl was- Carl was actually. Carl was becoming well known around the country. Carl Stokes from Cleveland. So people were seeking out Cleveland, coming to Cleveland, wanting to know, how do you do this? How is this done? And the major players were who they were. And so he got to know people. And Arnold, you know, he didn't meet any strangers. So wherever he would go and when they had. I know they had a convention in Indiana, Gary, Indiana, because the person there was the next one to be elected from a major a city after Carl Stokes. And that was kind of a national convention. And there were all kinds of situations in which he got exposure and people got to know Arnold and were aware of the work that he did. I remember when John Bustamani came to our house and that was probably. It was I think there was a 21st District Caucus parade that- Picnic that day. And he said that, well, those were exciting times. You know, here's Jesse Jackson and Carl Stokes and Lou Stokes and George Forbes and Arnold Pinckney and all these people are sitting in your living room talking. It was just thrilling. And so, you know, John came to say, attorney Bustamante came to say that there was, I guess, I guess that time they thought Jesse might run. It seems like it might have been, but whatever. And he wanted Arnold to run the camp, manage the campaign. And here again, that- How could you say no? We weren't real deeply involved in the Civil Rights Movement in terms of traveling. You know, we was always here. Arnold knew Dr. King and with Dr. Hoover when he would come in town and things at that level. But we didn't get deeply involved where you were across the country marching and civil rights efforts and all that. So this was kind of an opportunity to be a follow up and extension of what that generated, the opportunities that generated. So when he was invited, my daughter was Tracy. She was a teenager then. She wasn't real thrilled about it because, you know, she. It meant her father was going to be gone a lot, as any youngster would feel like that. So she wasn't real thrilled about it, but she became a part of the campaign also. So we all pitched in Jesse Jackson's campaign and it was a very exhausting campaign for him because it was national. But here again, he did what he needed to do and he would come home probably every two or three weeks. And most of the time he rested, was asleep when somebody wasn't calling him on the phone, but he just became known. And when he worked with Senator Humphrey, that was in, I guess that would have been before. Yes, that would have been before Jesse Jackson, but it was because he was becoming known around the country and he, Senator Humphrey, when Arnold, Arnold's parents were Republican and he heard, I think he was the mayor at that time, anyway, he heard Humphrey speak at the Democratic National Convention and he was very impressed because he was pushing for civil rights and it turned out to be very divisive in the convention and some of the Southerners walked out and that whole story. But that is what. That also piqued his interest in politics and campaigning and they developed a very close relationship. And when, when Senator Humphrey was running for president, he asked Arnold to be his national. One of the deputy campaign managers and he did that. And that turned out to be one of the first conventions I ever went. National conventions. I went to which I found quite exciting and to see how all of that worked. And he. They became very, very close, and even when after his health started to fail, I was just looking the other day at a nice note we got from Mrs. Humphrey thanking you for being supportive during his illness. And when he died, Arnold went to his funeral and rode with her, with her in the family car. He kind of looked at him as his surrogate father in a sense because Arnold was at one place in his political life and Humphrey and another. And he learned a lot from him and he liked his philosophy about life and about the human and civil rights of other people for which he fought extremely, extremely hard center. Humphrey did. And he just kind of became known around, Arnold did. And he- Okay.
Dee Perry [00:58:57] I had a feeling you were going to say something else.
Betty Pinkney [00:58:59] I was, but that was in another direction, I guess. Let's stay focused on this.
Dee Perry [00:59:05] Actually, I wanted to go in another direction for a couple of minutes because there was a point after Carl had done two terms and said, I'm not running for a third. When Arnold threw his hat into the ring for mayor. What was that experience like when he decided to run?
Betty Pinkney [00:59:24] We were on vacation in Virginia and we got this call. I think George Forbes called Arnold and told him that Mayor Stokes had announced that he was not going to seek re election for a third term. That would have been in '71. And so, you know, so then that started, who's going to run and all of that. And Arnold just kind of became the one to run next. It was something he hadn't really planned on, but because he knows how to campaign and he knows what campaign's involved and all that, he knew the city and, and all he agreed to do that, you know, it wasn't like he had. That was his goal in life. It's just one of those things that come up and you have to make a decision. And he did and he lost. And that, you know, it's difficult, but you accept it because one of his beliefs is that you, you accept defeat. And then he, four years later, he ran again and lost. And at that point he decided two things. One, he could not be a candidate and a campaign manager. And he was better at being a campaign manager. And he decided at that. And then there were other things also in this campaigning business, being a candidate, some of this was required of you violated his beliefs and some of the things you're asked to do, the compromises you might have to wait making. He didn't want to do that. And he decided it was better for him to be a campaign manager than a candidate. And he decided at that point that he would not see seek reelection again, and he did not. But he continued to manage campaigns. A number of them came up after that. So I remember after the second campaign, you lose and, you know, so you swallow hard, but then the next day you have to get up and go back, get, get back, get. And I remember going down to the church because I was working on something at church and I saw Reverend Moss that particular day and I wasn't going to say anything about it, but we talked and he was very comforting, so it was good for me. But all of this teaches you a lot about what life is about and how you have to accept victories. Thrill of victory, agony of defeat, and there is some agony in it, but he gave it his best and that's all you can do. And then after that, he went on back to being a campaign manager, which he liked, which was good for him.
Dee Perry [01:02:46] And I was thinking back to the way you described, described Carl and Louis and their styles of leadership. How would you have described Arnold Pinkney as a leader?
Betty Pinkney [01:02:58] He was, I guess you say most people are dedicated, but he was a very cerebral type. He read a lot, he researched a lot. He looked back at other campaigns and he knew what he wanted to do, which I think is important. What he envisioned out of his analysis, what the needs were and how he could have a part of that and be a part of that. And he wanted you to be, if you signed on, he wanted you to be reliable. He wanted you to be able to add something to the camp, not just, oh, here's another campaign. We go for the, you know, rallies and stuff. Like he wanted you to have, assume responsibility, understand why you were there and what the goal was. He was. Arnold's a serious type of person, and he took. He took responsibilities seriously and he was competitive and he was in it to win it. And it didn't always win, but it was never, because that was not his goal. He was not one of these who thought, well, whoever, whatever we run this time and this is tryout for the next election, he was in it to win it. For him to say that, remember that his first loss was a high school, probably junior high school, years and years after that, and maybe you would remember that, but he was a person who took on tasks and he enjoyed campaigning because he liked people and he attracted people as well. And people folk respected Arnold and believed in him a lot. There was a lot of his father. He talked about his father a lot. And you know, you always say, wish this could have. Wish his father could have seen who he became and what he became. And his father had a lot to do with that because his father was a very respected man, as was his family there in Youngstown.
Dee Perry [01:05:31] When you look at what the Stokes brothers accomplished and the hand that Arnold Pinkney had in that, can you talk about what a legacy that is? I mean, what does it say to younger generations who look at what they accomplished?
Betty Pinkney [01:05:55] One, I think it says you need to be prepared. You need a reason to do something. You need a reason why you want to do this. And in so doing, you need to get prepared so that you can be. You need to know why you're doing it, what you expect. The legacy of the Stokes was just that it kind of started just a whole new generation, a whole time. That says nothing about the Civil Rights movement and all that. But out of the Civil Rights movement came the development and the advancement of African Americans in politics. That was not to say they want others, but a new interest in how to get involved and how your community could benefit and the liabilities of politics also. Because there are, you know, there's the losses, there's sometimes unfortunate incidents come out of people being involved in politics and all of that. But their legacy was it can be done. It has to be done. It has been done. And there's a way to do it. And there are those people need to- I think you leaders rise to grow into leadership. You grow to become a leader. And you can see that. And you can see that in people. Early on, you know, Reverend Moss was a person who, among his many, many, many, many strengths, he could see something in you that you don't see in yourself. And you can. I can think of a child now at church. You just know that this child is going to be a leader, maybe a minister, maybe a politician, maybe a doctor, whatever. At some point, you can see that in people. And those. And leaders emerge. I don't think you just. Somebody said, well, I think you'd be a good leader. Come on, come on, help me. You emerge. In emerging, you have done things to show what qualities you have, that you know how to do things, how that you can engage other people, how that you can get people who want to help you do achieve whatever your goal is. And I think out of all the Stokes brothers were. All of that applies to the Stokes brothers because they had. And theirs was- It was like it was. Their time has come, as I think you've heard that expression, and they knew how to capitalize on it. As you read Lou's book, you just see- You see him developing almost from the time he was a child. You could just watch. You could almost- If you were an artist, you could just draw. You could just draw a whole series of pictures showing him develop from childhood to Congress and then his success in Congress, he emerged. He didn't start out wanting to be a congressman. You know, a lot of times leaders, they end up where they didn't start out or doing what they thought they would. Arnold wanted to be a professional baseball player, and he played, and he was very good in sports. He. When he was in the army, he played with some major leaguers on a baseball team. And one of them was a scout for the Cleveland Indians. And he knew that Arnold was interested. And probably at that time, Arnold was 24, maybe, but this scout told him that you need. The African Americans need more lawyers than they do baseball players. One, because at that time he wanted to be a lawyer. And two, by the time you get to the majors, you will be older because he was probably 22 or 23 then. And I guess by the time you went through training and all of that, he felt he would be too old to be. But anyway, that was the logic he used, and Arnold accepted that. And so he didn't. That kind of ended his desire to be a professional because he loved baseball. He was very good at it. He was a shortstop. And I used to say, how many home runs did you hit? But that was just. But I'm saying you don't always end up where you thought you wanted to, but you can be successful at something else.
Dee Perry [01:11:10] Yeah, he definitely hit a lot of home runs in the end, in all the arenas.
Betty Pinkney [01:11:13] He certainly did.
Dee Perry [01:11:19] I think that's all that's on my list. Christine or Jacob, do you have some other things you want to?
Christine Hickey [01:11:29] I'm good.
Jacob Taylor [01:11:32] The first question I really had was, did Arnold run any of Lou's reelection campaigns?
Betty Pinkney [01:11:38] Lou Stokes. The second one. Yes.
Jacob Taylor [01:11:41] He ran the first and the second one. And when I was looking, researching the two of you, I came across some stuff that suggested that you were a Democratic delegate.
Betty Pinkney [01:11:55] Yes. Huh. I was delegate. Oh, that was wonderful. To be a delegate to the convention. [crosstalk] To be a delegate to the national convention. First convention I went to was when Hubert Humphrey. I was just there with Arnold. And that was exciting to see how these conventions run. And then I was delegate when Jesse Jackson was a candidate as well as Jimmy Carter. And to get to be a delegate, it's very exciting because, you know, you're with Everybody, we all have the same goal. And you get to go to these little caucuses, caucus meetings, things you hear about when you're involved in politics, but you never see it. And you make decisions about how you're going to vote. And sometimes you see that when you have the, the meeting of all the delegates and the call for a vote, it's not always. Sometimes the person in charge will say, well, this passed or it didn't. And it may not necessarily pass if it's particularly something platform wise and they want everybody to vote on it. I kind of remember that kind of stuck out in my mind once when I went to. But you would love being delegate if you've never been one. You see everybody. That's important in politics and you see all of the other delegations and you see, you hear the clapping and excitement. And to me, one of the exciting things is I even like this on tv, when they call for the vote, each delegation gets say, well, we have however many delegates you have and we from the great state of Ohio and we vote. So many votes are cast for this one and that one. And that is just. You love each delegation and how they come up and announce who they're vote for. So you would love. That's an experience that's worth having, being a delegate. And once I had to be, I was interviewed. Tim Hagan, he interviewed me on the little station. I mean, I was the delegate. It must have been Jimmy Carter. And he interviewed me. Maybe it was Jesse Jackson. Anyway, he interviewed me and it was televised back at home. So that was one of the benefits of being a delegate. And then with Jesse's campaign, each delegation has a phone and you use that phone to call in votes or when messages need to get to your delegation on what you need to do and all of that. So I was right next to the one when Jesse Jackson was the candidate. And so I got to have. That phone was given to me. I still have it now. So there's a lot of side benefits. But it's just being a part of the process and seeing how conventions run and what the responsibilities are of leadership in the convention. It's worthwhile.
Dee Perry [01:15:12] And I wanted to follow up on that because how does someone get to be a delegate? Delegate is it.
Betty Pinkney [01:15:20] At that time you were elected from your. Each congressional district has so many delegates. And at that time you had to have so many men as well as women and a certain number of minorities. So that was. And you and your congressional district meets and you have a little election in the congressional district and they elect people. And if, you know, you want to be a delegate, then you make sure that you have a bunch of people. People come to the con, the meeting of your congressional district. So when the vote is held, you get elected. So it's a small little, you know, election for you, so to speak. So that, that's how that works.
Dee Perry [01:16:10] Anything.
Betty Pinkney [01:16:12] Please don't ask me any other questions.
Christine Hickey [01:16:14] Oh, you have another one? Jacob has another one.
Jacob Taylor [01:16:16] I wanted to follow up. And the follow-up questions would be, so when doing that, were you able to pull from your husband's kind of connections to get that or was there, I mean, what was involved for you to get the people to come?
Betty Pinkney [01:16:31] Both. It was- We were a team, you know, Arnold and I were a team on a number of levels and a lot of things. So naturally, he being Arnold Pinckney in our Lou's congressional district, that was to my advantage. But I worked in politics and in the campaigns and I taught, you know, so I wasn't exactly an unknown. So I brought something to the table also. So I got elected as a delegate. But yeah, it took both of us because there was always competition for, you know, there were more people wanting to be delegates than there were slots open. So you had, you had competition, so you had to be sure that you got your people out.
Christine Hickey [01:17:34] Okay, I want to go back a little bit to Carl's victory. And when it was announced, I know you were, you were at home, but when you first heard of the victory, the victory, what were your thoughts and how did you feel about that?
Betty Pinkney [01:17:55] Well, you cried for one, because you're so happy. And it's probably, as I think about this, and it was probably like when President Obama got elected, it was just because it was a very close election and it took so long that you, you know, young then and impatient, you probably pretty much given up. So it was a time of great excitement and right away you just saw a new kind of hope, a new kind of excitement. And in this particular, he was already the mayor. So this was his third election. So you're talking about the one that Arnold ran in 67, in 69, rather, you know, like you would be when you're pulling for any candidate. But your situation is a little different because, you know, you're the minority and you know that you've had. And it shows you how in any election you have to have help from all sides, from everyone. So while you're learning lessons, you're enjoying the victory and you're full of antipathy, anticipation that the person will be successful and that the roadblocks are minimal and the successes are sufficient so that that person leaves a history, a legacy, a statement about the value of them being having been elected. And also, you feel good because you know what the little. If you were a volunteer and you worked, you know that your work was not in vain, even in the defeat, you don't regret having done it, but you know that your work was not in vain, and that's part of any success story and victory.
Christine Hickey [01:20:15] And I know you weren't involved after the campaign necessarily in politics or anything. But from your perspective, being, you know, a citizen of Cleveland, how do you think Carl did, you know, what challenges did you see with him overall? How was his administration, do you feel?
Betty Pinkney [01:20:37] Excuse me?
Christine Hickey [01:20:38] So how do you feel Carl did as a mayor?
Betty Pinkney [01:20:41] I felt that Carl was- I felt that Carl was successful because he, as I say, he started some programs that were new to the city. The "Cleveland: NOW!," as I mentioned, the Urban Coalition. He was able to get people organized so that they wanted to be. He fought. It was a problem sometimes with the police, as it seems to always be. And unfortunately, the riots were probably his downfall. But he was successful because he was the mayor and he was strong. Carl was very strong, Strong and deliberate person. So that if he felt the city should. If he felt other potential candidates were not going to be good for the city, he would stand up for that. He. Whatever. He. You knew what. There was no question in what he believed in. In. And he fought for that. And his was for the betterment of all people and African Americans, especially because of our history. That is my take on his. He was in the right place at the right time and made a left, a legacy that will always be remembered. And he was one of the few people who served in all branches of government, too.
Christine Hickey [01:22:30] I know you talked a little bit about their legacy, but do you- What would you hope that students and our youth today could learn and take away from their legacy?
Betty Pinkney [01:22:40] First, I hope they study history. History. I hope they study. You know, we're in a completely new generation of young people. We have Millennials. We have some who are less patient, who are in a hurry, but they have a lot to offer. And I hope that they would be students of history so they understand what we have gone through. And when I say we, I mean African Americans in particular, and women and other minority groups. Let me put it like that. And on the basis of that, I hope that they will learn that you must prepare. You must have a reason for doing something. You must have goals. You must have an end game. That you're. That you strive, you must, and you must be inclusive. And I don't see that as a problem nowadays among, you know, individual groups, but mainly that you study history, that you. That you know what and why you're doing something. Not because change clearly is going to take place. And if you want to. What part of change do you want to be and why and are you the change that needs to happen? And so here again, you need to organize, strategize, plan and carry out your plan. That's what my hope is for young people and not disband people with experience. Weeks ago. But number of housing.
Christine Hickey [01:24:39] Okay, so. What?
Jacob Taylor [01:24:43] I said try to get a number.
Christine Hickey [01:24:44] Right. So were you- Do I ask this or not, Jacob? Okay, sorry. Were you or Arnold involved in the Lee-Seville housing improvement project? And if so, can you tell us a little bit?
Betty Pinkney [01:24:55] I'm not aware of that. I know of the project. I wasn't- And I just don't have much recollection about that. No.
Jacob Taylor [01:25:06] Kind of related to that, Carl Stokes, Cleveland- You mentioned "Cleveland: NOW!," a lot of the programs he did were related to housing. Do you have any-
Betty Pinkney [01:25:14] Excuse me, I'm sorry.
Dee Perry [01:25:16] He was saying that a lot of the projects that Carl was involved in were related to housing in Cleveland. And did you have any thoughts about or recollections of those?
Betty Pinkney [01:25:32] I personally don't. A lot of, you know, in addition to working in these campaigns, I was also a wife and a mother and I was active on, you know, the PT and all those kind of things. So some of the subsequent projects and all of that, I wasn't really involved in a lot. After the campaign was over, I kind of went back to being at home and going to PTA meetings and then I was involved in my church and I was on the board of hospital and things that went off in my direction. So to that extent, I can't really answer that in a- Answer that.
Christine Hickey [01:26:13] Was there anything else that, you know, you wanted to mention about the campaign or the Stokes brothers that we didn't touch?
Betty Pinkney [01:26:19] You know, I think. I think I pretty much covered at this point. I think. I think not. You did a good job in putting these questions together. So you probably covered everything that I might have thought about.
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