Charles V. Williams interview, 01 February 2020

Abstract

Charles V. Williams is a longtime advocate for the Black Deaf community at both the local, state, and national levels. In this first of two interviews, he discusses losing his hearing as a child, growing up on Cleveland's East Side, early efforts to help Black Deaf newcomers to the city, working at Thompson Products and in the Cuyahoga County Engineer's Office, and campaigning for Carl Stokes for mayor.

Interviewee

Williams, Charles V. (interviewee); Harris, Lori (interpreter); Cangelosi-Williams, Pat (participant)

Interviewer

Souther, Mark (interviewer)

Project

Project Team

Date

2-1-2020

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

92 minutes

Recommended Citation

"Charles V. Williams interview, 01 February 2020" (2020). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 999160.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/1231

Related Resources

Project Team @ Cleveland Voices

Transcript

Mark Souther [00:00:01] Today is February 1st, 2020. My name is Mark Souther. I'm from Cleveland State University, representing the Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection, and I am with Mr. Charles V. Williams, or Chuck Williams, at his home in Cleveland Heights. Thank you very much for agreeing to be interviewed. This is actually our second interview because we had a technical difficulty with our first one for which I am very, very sorry. So we're back, and we're hoping for a better morning today. Thank you for allowing us to do it.

Charles Williams [00:00:41] Thank you very much this morning for being so honest.

Mark Souther [00:00:45] Sure. My pleasure. Would you state your full name for our recording?

Charles Williams [00:00:52] My full name is Charles Victor Williams. They got that name from the Bible.

Mark Souther [00:01:01] Please tell me the year of your birth and tell me again about your parents.

Charles Williams [00:01:08] I was born March 25th, 1931. My father's name is Theodore Martin Williams and my mother's name is Irene Bass Williams. My mother came from Marietta, Ohio, with eleven, five brothers and six sisters. They call that Snaketown because there are a lot of snakes down in Marietta, Ohio.

Mark Souther [00:01:45] Where did they live when they came to Cleveland?

Charles Williams [00:01:53] Well, when they came here, my father told me he used to live in Lakewood, which you'd call Cleveland at that time, and living with his grandfather. For some reason, I was told that Cleveland moved across the bridge. But you have a horse trotting going down in the lower level and come up the upper level. Then that would be Cleveland, which would run into Superior, Euclid Avenue at that time.

Mark Souther [00:02:29] Do you know what your grandfather did for a living when he was living there?

Charles Williams [00:02:34] My grandfather? My grandfather worked for the train [railroads]. At that time he was working on the train. That's where his income was coming from until he retired.

Mark Souther [00:02:45] And what did your mother do?

Charles Williams [00:02:54] Well, that's one thing that was never told. My father and his father, that's all I know. I know nothing about my father's mother or anything like that during my time. I grew up with my grandfather, and on my mother's side, I grew up with my grandmother but [was] never told about my grandfather's side.

Mark Souther [00:03:22] When did they come to live in the Outhwaite Homes? Your father and mother and you?

Charles Williams [00:03:38] I don't know, they were already in Ohio at that time, but all I know they grew up in Ohio. Maybe I never had a chance to ask about their family or my mother's family side, but I haven't met all my mother's family side. I met them. Some lived in Canada during World War II because they didn't want to join the service at that time. Came back home when the war was over. So my father's side, all I know is that my grandfather was living with my father... with his son at time.

Mark Souther [00:04:17] How old were you when they moved to the Outhwaite Homes, the public housing project?

Charles Williams [00:04:30] Well, that's interesting, because I never know how old I was, but I was able to say around maybe seven, eight years old at that time when we moved in the project, and I never knew it was the project at all, but I knew I had a bed and bathroom at that time. I was never told that we were living in a government apartment at that time.

Mark Souther [00:05:08] It was home.

Charles Williams [00:05:13] Well, it was home, yeah. It was nice, because there was a man named James Lewis. He was deaf. He stayed with us. And his spouse are buried with Ted, my older brother, down at the Alexander Graham Bell School. At that time, a lot of older Deaf had responsibility of taking younger kids to school, but they'd go through the house to pick them up so the parents don't have to take them there. Everyone was responsible for that. But during my time, no one picked me up. I mean things changed because I knew my way.

Mark Souther [00:05:50] You were in school at Alexander Graham Bell School.

Charles Williams [00:05:54] I went to public school first. I went to Case-Woodland School at East 40th and Woodland. That's where I noticed I lost my hearing.

Mark Souther [00:06:08] So you had hearing when you were at Bell and then lost it, started to lose it...

Charles Williams [00:06:14] Oh, I was hearing, I was hearing, yeah. I was a normal kid then, and I noticed that my brother was Deaf but home signing, so I went to hearing school and talked with all the people and kids and all that. And I had fun though.

Mark Souther [00:06:36] Can you tell me about what it was like as you were losing your hearing, at home, such as around the dining table, conversations with family? How did...

Charles Williams [00:06:51] It was a big change and it was hard for me as a young kid. Things I couldn't do. Because a lot of famous people who were singers and all that. Hazel Scott, Frank Sinatra, and all, and I wanted to be a singer myself, you know. Because of what I saw, I wanted to be part of that, and I just grew up and told Dad that I wanted to be involved with music because I loved music. All the time, I'd stick my head down in the tape recorder, listen to music over and over and over a thousand times, even I was down in the basement. But I grew up a little bit disappointed, and I didn't really know I lost my hearing until I got slapped in the face though. That really bothers me.

Mark Souther [00:07:46] Can you tell me about that incident?

Charles Williams [00:07:48] Well, I was in Case-Woodland School, and I went home for lunch and one of the famous people there was Don King who was from the boxing days. He went to school there with me. But he was a bad boy at that time. And I went home. My mother gave me my lunch and I walked back to school. Went upstairs, like I said, and I saw the teacher writing on the blackboard, and I looked at the book that we all had and looked at the page, I looked down the pages, and my teacher came up and I was the last person sitting in the row. It was over 40 students at that time. We had a big class. I was surprised when I looked down and saw two white legs down and I looked up and she said, "Charles, did you hear me call you?" I said, "No." Boy, she slapped the hell out of me. I'm sorry I'm saying that word though, but I got up and walked home because my mother had taught if anybody hit you or touch you, you come straight home. That's exactly what I did. So my mother wanted to know why I got slapped, so we went back to school at that time and talked to the teacher and banged her out. And they was in the hallway where I was just hanging around, looking around. Then my mother tapped me on the shoulder, and it was the first time she ever tapped me on the shoulder. They'd always call my name out. Then asked me if I wanted to go take a hearing test. That was strange. I said, "Fine." Then we went over three blocks to Alexander Graham Bell School. It was recess at that time, and I saw all those kids talking with their hands and all that. Then I saw my brother out there in the field. So we went in, and I took that test and I was surprised I was 10 percent south of normal, and they gave me a hearing aid and battery and microphone and all. It bugs me like crazy, I hate it though, but my father made sure I wear it every morning when I go to school. That's where the trouble started.

Mark Souther [00:10:14] Tell me about what happened when you would wear the hearing aid to school. The trouble that you mentioned.

Charles Williams [00:10:24] Well, I was bullied. I was very bullied. People, the kids never saw somebody wearing a hearing aid, something like that there, and kept picking on me and pulled the cord out. My ear swelled up. I kept it to myself. I didn't say anything to my dad until things got worse, and I told him I couldn't take it anymore. So the [inaudible] came out, and my dad said, does he wear glasses? At that time a lot of kids were wearing glasses, during my time growing up. If you dropped them, the glass cracked. [inaudible] So he said take 'em. So that's where I had the strength to do that. When there was a class changing over, he come down, "Hey Chuck, what's the score?" I said, "I don't know." We had no backpack at that time. We had books with... You had to carry your books. So I dropped my books and I put him up. I didn't know I had that much power, but I never told my dad that I fought back. But I kept it to myself, but the kid screamed like, "Don't mess with Chuck now! He's very mad now. Leave him alone!" So I had no problem until I went back to class and sat down. That's when the teacher told me, "Go in the office." I said, "For what?" "Go in the office." She said picked up the phone, called me, go in the office, so I walked in the office. That was at East Tech High School. So, they told me I couldn't come to class the next day or anything like that. They told my father and mother and never told me the reason why, but that was it. But before I went to East Tech, I went Benedictine School because my whole family, my mother's family, all went to Catholic school. But my brother couldn't go because he was hearing. So I went to Benedictine that time. I was so excited when I went to Benedictine. I had no problem because there were six to seven guys in the classroom. And I was enjoying going to Benedictine until I went home for lunch. When the streetcar come down the hill, I saw Father Roberts in the station wagon waving me back, and I had a choice: take the streetcar to go home or eat and go back. But since he waved me back, I went back to his office. He was there waiting for me to walk in. Handed me a piece of blank paper. I said, "Father Robert, what's the paper for? "You're finished." I said, "I can't hear. Nobody told me, that the microphone, whatever you call it. No leaving school property or anything for lunch, anything, I couldn't hear." Oh, well, I missed that school, I loved it, and I went back home and told my mother, and my mother called my father. My father got upset and made a lot of calls to the top people and all that. One strike, that was it. So I didn't know where to go until one of my deaf friends--he was going to Ohio School for the Deaf--he was showing me pictures of football, basketball, and all of that. His name is Morris, and he lived one block away from me. And I looked at the pictures and I told my mom and dad and said no, you couldn't go there. So I wrote a letter saying I wanted to go there and the superintendent came down to the house, knocked on the door and said, your son could go. So I was there for two years because I was older at that time. I fell in love with the school. I was probably the only Black [person] going that year at the high school. Not the middle school, but the high school. It's from elementary up to the high school. So I picked up everything and all the teachers were signing though, but I couldn't understand, had to learn how to pick it up. And while I'm there I learned a lot of bad things and how the students were cheating and all that. They went back at school at night and got a paper for taking the test and brought it to my house. Boy, I couldn't believe they did that with a flashlight and all that. I had a lot of fun. Our grades were up though. The teacher wanted to know how smart we were. We never told her that she offered [inaudible] papers ... Definitely put in correct, right, Third World the best [inaudible]. The people are really smart, taught me a lot. But we all had flashlights. We had flashlights. And then my football coach, he was deaf. And he was living at the YMCA. I couldn't believe he was living at the YMCA at that time. So it's football. I played football and all that. It's different now. We're playing offense and defense, and I happened to be the punter or left halfback on the defense and all, and I made, all the time, put in club paper every football game in that day. My name appeared. So my father... They played in Newcomerstown in Ohio. So it was at night, and I was surprised to see my father and mother there sitting on the bench at night with my brother all by themselves. I looked on the other side and saw all the people on that side, all the visitors on that side, showing my mother, my father, and brother. They came out all the way from Cleveland. It's about a 140 miles. Mom said, "You're gonna get hurt." She saw all those big guys. I said, "No way, mom." So we played. So, one guy really got hurt and when he tackled a boy, he flew up in the air without hitting him, and all the kids came to me from the other town and said, "Wow, you really know how to play football," and all that. So it was in the newspaper. So my father made the newspaper, Call and Post said I was going to Ohio State. They never told me about it. I was very upset. They had a great big picture of me in the Call and Post, that's the black paper, the Call and Post. I would look and stare at myself and say I was going to Ohio State at that time. Oh, well, I really had fun. But ended up for the community and me [inaudible] my coach was very upset because the American Association for the Deaf never gave me my medal or pin or anything because they discriminate.

Mark Souther [00:17:46] So you were you were voted to the Hall of Fame for your involvement there? Can you tell me about that? I'm looking at a picture. Just to add to the record before you do, I'm looking at a picture and a headline that says "Williams is Star in Ohio Deaf Win." And that you "played fullback, scored three touchdowns on runs of 64, 30, and 68 yards, and added ground that set up the other touchdowns to lead his team to victory." Can you tell me about the Hall of Fame honor that you got as a result of this?

Charles Williams [00:18:36] No, that was for all the Deaf schools. They picked them out, whoever's made good records or anything like that. So my name was nominated by my coach, so the Deaf American Association didn't pick me when they found out I was Black. So I didn't get my reward from them. I was very upset with that. That was not from my local school there but from the National...

Mark Souther [00:19:13] I want to go back a little bit to pick up a couple of things that we missed along the way. One question that occurred to me when you were mentioning about the hearing aid being pulled out repeatedly. Did your older brother, who was also Deaf, not wear a hearing aid to school?

Charles Williams [00:19:33] So my brother couldn't even wear his. He was completely Deaf. He was completely Deaf...

Mark Souther [00:19:41] I see, completely Deaf.

Charles Williams [00:19:41] Completely Deaf. Yes, we were forced to learn lip reading at that time at the Alexander Graham Bell. Everyone had to learn lip reading whether you were Deaf or hard of hearing. If the principal would catch you signing in the hallway changing class, you go in his office. He would take a hard copy book and hit your knuckle ten times and you'd bleed sometimes. There's nothing your mother and father can do because they're happy, they want you to learn lip reading because it's easy for them instead of for the parents to learn sign language. They think sign language was terrible at that time. It did not become law until later in life.

Mark Souther [00:20:27] I see. One other thing that I wanted to go back to that I have in my notes is unrelated to deafness, but it has to do with racial discrimination, and I wonder if you can tell me a little bit about incidents that you experienced when you were growing up in Cleveland, that had to do with segregation.

Charles Williams [00:20:54] I was never told by my mother or father though, but it's by seeing it. Things where you couldn't go. For example, my Deaf friend lived on the West Side. And I told told him in school that I was coming over to their house so we can go out together. But he didn't say anything to me about I couldn't come. And I took the streetcar and went over, over the bridge and to his house. Found out he was living in an apartment at that time. So I went up and knocked on his door. His mother came to the door and said, "Go away. Don't you come here no more." In school we were best friends, but he was a little bit embarrassed. He didn't open the door. I couldn't see him. So I went back home on the streetcar. I didn't realize what I was facing. Then I went to the Euclid Avenue. Then I found out I was going to the movies, and I was told by my Deaf friends, if you're going to a movie you have to go upstairs. You're not allowed to go in the lower level. So I began to learn how to protect myself, not to do anything [inaudible] or anything at that time. And I saw discrimination on Black people, Spanish people, and all that. But the worst thing was my mother... when we were living in the project, we went downtown on the streetcar and went into 5 and 10 cent store. When we went to the 5 and 10 cent store, and everybody was sitting in the stool. We had to stand in the back in there, and the waitress asked what you want and we had to order food standing up while the people were sitting down. So if there's a vacant seat there we weren't allowed to sit. That was at the 5 and 10 cent store. So I got used to it. And I went out to Shaker Square and a cop said, "What are you doing out in this neighborhood?" I said, "I came see my friend," who happened to be white. He says, "Go back where you come from. Don't let me catch you coming here again." But I never told my father or anything like that. I just picked it up and without it bothering me. I really didn't know what was going on though. But that was strange because they're chasing me away. I did nothing wrong. I didn't know what it was. My father and mother never told me anything about discrimination or anything like that.

Mark Souther [00:23:41] At the time, did you think it may have have something... at the time did you think maybe it was the cause of deafness as opposed to race? Or did you not?

Charles Williams [00:23:51] I don't think my deafness had anything to do with it. I think my color had something to do with it because when I was living in the project at that time, and I was playing, and I happened to be on the wrong side of the street, on Woodland, a cop arrested me, grabbed me. I tried to climb over the fence, get on the other side. My mother came out, and she told the policeman, "Will you let my son come over the fence again?" [He said] "I'll have you arrested." Cop didn't know who my mother was. My mother and my father was a prosecutor at that time. So, he released me. I had to climb back over the fence and get back on my mother's side again. And that was very strange because I got away with a lot of things because of my father and the other Black kids couldn't get by.

Mark Souther [00:24:53] When you mentioned you were on the wrong side of Woodland, is that what you mean? Was that a racial boundary? Is that what you're telling me?

Charles Williams [00:25:02] At that time, yeah, here in Greater Cleveland. I couldn't believe it.

Mark Souther [00:25:06] Where on Woodland? What? What numbered street would be near there?

Charles Williams [00:25:10] Down on 40th Street on Woodland. Case-Woodland School was right there and the markets are all in the back. The markets and all that. At East 55th there was big sign for Sohio gas station. They had a great big clock there. I used to step out of the house and walk up and look up and I could see the big clock and I'd know what it was. I didn't have to have a watch at that time.

Mark Souther [00:25:36] So was it customary then not to be able to go to the south side of the street if you were African American? Do I have that right?

Charles Williams [00:25:46] Depends if you worked there, but you can't go knock on your friend's door because their mother and father embarrassed because the neighbors say "Unnnh!" just like that.

Mark Souther [00:25:55] One other thing I wanted to ask about the Outhwaite Homes is that I understand you grew up with the Stokes brothers, and I wonder if you can tell me a little bit about your memories of them when they were teenagers and when you were a teenager.

Charles Williams [00:26:17] Well, I grew up at Outhwaite and I never knew who the Stokes brothers were. They lived near the tennis court and basketball court and recreation center and Kennard School, that's where Pat's mother graduated from. I can't think of the name of that junior high school. I grew up in that neighborhood, and I had a lot of fun. Everybody was there and what was so impressive about the neighborhood was that... It was World War II at that time, and my father was responsible when the air raid warden made the noise, he had to go around with his flashlight and tell the neighbor, "Turn the light off." Turn the light out because if there was an airplane would be dropping bombs at that time. I was walking with my father over there, and he's flashing his light and telling people to turn their lights out. It was so dark, I began to realize you couldn't see the airplane or anything like that. That was very interesting. And I was the newspaper boy at that time for the Plain Dealer. I didn't know how to count change. [Laughing] People gave me change and asked where I learned my math and all that. It was very interesting. So we had a laundry down in the project, a laundry room with certain things where you're supposed to... My mother taught me how to iron the bedsheets and all that. Chinese people lived there also. We did not get along. I was surprised. He happened to be the only person with light skin where we lived at. I never saw a rabbit. I never saw sheep. I never saw anything until I moved outside the project. See a dead rabbit. Saw those kind of animals though. But we had rules. If they catch me walk on grass, I had to pay 10 cents at that time. [inaudible] green grass and all that, swimming pools and all. So I had a lot of fun until my father bought a car. That's when we moved out.

Mark Souther [00:29:01] Can you tell me why that was?

Charles Williams [00:29:04] He didn't want me to know about the Stokes brothers. I knew who they were. They didn't know who we were because we never communicate with his mother. I always call the brother, her son come in the house. They were disappointed. I didn't know anything about the father, I'd never seen the father though, but the mother make them read their books and all that. But they'd see me and my brother talking with our hands. That's how they recognized us. We waved at each other. But I didn't realize that they became lawyers later in life. Then the Stokes brothers went in service and became, see when he became in service, I forget what you call that, he was in service and they came of service, and the Stokes brothers was in charge? [inaudible] liquor at that time, no more. Because in my time, a lot of people I had their party at their home at night. Open the door, sell whiskey right there. They had no bars where we can go to...

Mark Souther [00:30:11] They had no what?

Charles Williams [00:30:13] Bars.

Mark Souther [00:30:13] Bars. Okay.

Charles Williams [00:30:20] After hours, that's what they had was a lot of afterhours rye, a lot of whorehouses too. If you see a red light you know what that was and all that. And if you go into a bar or nightclub you have to turn in your knife, pocket knife, or anything like that. It was totally different, but you stay on Cedar Road you're alright. Cedar was always packed. And a factory was on 55th Street where they made tanks and all that. The building's still there. It's really vacant there. I can't believe they never tear down that building.

Mark Souther [00:31:05] Where on 55th are we talking about?

Charles Williams [00:31:09] 55th and Cedar and Carnegie.

Mark Souther [00:31:12] Oh, I know where you mean, up at Warner Swasey. Warner and Swasey.

Charles Williams [00:31:16] Right, yeah, right, right. They never tore it down. Boy, I don't know why they left it up there though, it's just really vacant there. Been a long time. That neighborhood was really packed. Around the corner they had big factories where these die things make all things with metal and all that, tanks and all that. But it used to be packed all the time, 24 hours round the clock there. The streetcar goes up and down the street there, and a lot of whores walked up and down the street.

Mark Souther [00:31:54] Is this on Euclid or on 55th that you're speaking of?

Charles Williams [00:31:56] No, no, no. On Chester and Cedar. That Scovill's way on the other side. On Chester and Cedar.

Mark Souther [00:32:12] Cedar and maybe Central?

Charles Williams [00:32:14] Oh, my God. Cedar and Chester. Cedar and Chester!

Mark Souther [00:32:23] Can you tell me about any memories of the Majestic Hotel down there at 55th and Central since we're talking about that area?

Charles Williams [00:32:34] That was a popular hotel for a lot of people, very popular, that was on East 55th Street and Scovill, I think, if I'm right.

Mark Souther [00:32:42] I think Central.

Charles Williams [00:32:54] Oh, Central, right, right, right. Because things began to change and then the business wasn't so good, so they fold up because a lot of famous people used that hotel and a lot of my Deaf friends used that place too because there was no other place where did they could come when they visited Cleveland and all that. That was very popular, right, on East 55th Street.

Mark Souther [00:33:19] One other story I wanted you to tell me was about your, your deaf friends when you were in high school. I have in my notes a mention of a Frank Lammarino. Can you tell me about him and about anything you'd like to share about him and your friendship?

Charles Williams [00:33:39] Frank Lammarino was really, he's Italian, and he's very open, and he lived on Euclid Avenue, in part of East Cleveland by Hough Bakery--it's not there no more. His mother and father and family was real good to me and my brother. Frank always wanted us to go places where he'd go. We couldn't go down to Little Italy. Couldn't go down that hill by himself. Cemetery's right around there. That's where he lived, one block away from the cemetery. We played baseball for the Catholic Church on the West Side. Yeah, the baseball team.

Charles Williams [00:34:45] No, the Catholic Church, what's the name of the church? Saint what? [Pat Cangelosi-Williams and Lori Harris quietly offer names.] No. No. No. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

Lori Harris (interpreter) [00:35:04] St. Augustine.

Mark Souther [00:35:05] Would you go to his house? To Frank's house?

Charles Williams [00:35:12] Oh, yeah, spaghetti! His mother cooked a very big pot of spaghetti. Talked to my mother, the whole family and all. We had no problem until Frank took us to go to Akron to play baseball and we had to stay overnight. So we went in a hotel, booked a room. Frank got his room. I couldn't get mine. So I told the boy, said, can I borrow your phone? He gave me the phone. I called my dad. I said, "Would you talk to this man? He said I can't sleep here." My father talked to him. He said, "We have a room for you." So I didn't know how much power my dad had about that. He helped changing things, I think. Maybe I shouldn't know it, but I have to thank Frank for that. He was really close to me. He comes over to my house all the time. Knock on my door, it's three o'clock in the morning, ask for help... Because I'm very strong. I see. I learned a lot from my father. And he's in trouble. They know where to come.

Mark Souther [00:36:27] Mhm. With your friend Frank Lammarino, he was deaf as well, correct?

Charles Williams [00:36:31] Oh, yeah, completely deaf.

Mark Souther [00:36:34] Can you tell me about the experience about the deaf club, not being able to go to the deaf club?

Charles Williams [00:36:45] I couldn't believe it. All those friends I went to school with? I couldn't believe I couldn't join their club. And me and my brother couldn't join that club. And that line right there, they say, Ahh, because older deaf people told them and their bylaws said No Negroes at that time, written on there. No Negroes allowed to be members. So you went to West Side, to West 14th Street to the Catholic Church over there. They had a club over there. We joined with them. We joined with them later on. We decided our own baseball team for the Black Deaf Assoication. We had our own baseball team.

Mark Souther [00:37:31] What was it called?

Charles Williams [00:37:34] The Cleveland Silent Club.

Mark Souther [00:37:38] And what sports? It was baseball and anything else?

Charles Williams [00:37:42] Basketball and bowling.

Mark Souther [00:37:44] And since you had your own club, was there ever an issue of competing against other clubs that were white?

Charles Williams [00:37:53] No, no. Oh, yeah, definitely, if we go to Indianapolis we had problems, yeah, yeah, yeah. But we had to stay in black hotels separately at that time. Sure. But we played against the white teams, we had no problem with that until... After the game, they had with the party night. We couldn't go into the party. So [inaudible] around there. We had to go the black party and the white party, both in the same hotel. The manager set that up to separate us. That was in Indianapolis at that time. We felt bad. We want them all to come together because we all paid dues to the same organization, you know. So I'm just picking up and learning every day while we're still young and finally watched my dad. I'd been going down to the courthouse, sitting in the back and watch how he ran round the court and all, and I learned a lot. So I really wanted to become a lawyer at that time and there was no school to be able to take me because they didn't know to communicate with me though.

Mark Souther [00:39:17] I have one other thing I wanted to ask, since you were mentioning your father, can you talk a little bit more about about him? You mentioned that he got you out of a lot of issues that arose. And you you haven't really said a lot about him though as a judge, some of the things that he did. I wondered if you could say a little bit about that for a few minutes.

Charles Williams [00:39:42] Well, my dad, I don't know. Because he never talked to me. But he talked to my three sisters. But I know he cared about me and my brother. Oh, yeah. One eye on me and my brother all the time. Always made sure we'd come home all the time on time. If not, he sent the detectives to go look for us. Me and my brother were disappointed because we had to be home at 12 o'clock. I can't tell my two daughters that, w

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