Pat Agatisa is a newer member of the Village Garden Club in Shaker Heights. She discusses growing up in New York City, living in Pittsburgh, and moving to Shaker Heights in the early 2000s to a house on Green Lake. She discusses her leading role in overseeing the upkeep of the garden club’s Cherry Tree Grove at Horseshoe Lake. Agatisa describes how the club accepted its first male member, reflects on how the club dealt with the Covid-19 pandemic, and shares gardening tips.


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Agatisa, Pat (interviewee)


Cameron, Caitlen (interviewer)


Shaker Heights Historical Society



Document Type

Oral History


62 minutes


Caitlen Cameron [00:00:02] Alright, today is August 20th. It's a Friday, and it's a little cloudy out. We have some sun. We are at the Shaker Historical Society, kind of in the garden. We were just at the Grove, but my name is Caitlin Cameron and I am here with...

Pat Agatisa [00:00:19] Pat Agatisa. And that's A-G-A-T-I-S-A.

Caitlen Cameron [00:00:26] Yes. And, yeah, she was doing a little work over there, so I took her away for a minute, and I'm excited to get this started. Are you ready?

Pat Agatisa [00:00:33] Yes, I am.

Caitlen Cameron [00:00:33] And do you consent to be recorded?

Pat Agatisa [00:00:35] Of course, yes.

Caitlen Cameron [00:00:37] Okay. So I guess I kind of just want to start out with the basics, and when were you born?

Pat Agatisa [00:00:41] I was born April 8th, 1954, a long time ago. [laughs] Once you hit 60, you know, I mean, everything changes and you relax, I think, with age. I was born in Brooklyn, New York. Mhm. I lived there until, let's see, 1987 when we moved to Pittsburgh. A lot happened in between there. So I don't know. What do you want to know about my childhood or?

Caitlen Cameron [00:01:09] Mhm.

Pat Agatisa [00:01:11] Alright. Brooklyn in those days is not the Brooklyn of now nor the Brooklyn of the 1970s or '80s. I grew up in Sheepshead Bay which is a small... My mother used to call it a small fishing village on the bay. It's near Coney Island, which everybody knows, you know, where all the rides are. There was Coney Island, Brighton Beach, and then Manhattan Beach was the beach that I used to go to, and Sheepshead Bay was probably a half a mile away from it. So I spent my summers walking to the beach with my sisters, you know, went to the local parochial school, got a scholarship to a girls', a private girls' school in Manhattan, which was a big step for the Brooklyn girl to go to school in Manhattan. But my sister, my oldest sister, had gone there also. She didn't have the scholarship. I did. So I grew up taking the New York City subways at the age of 14 to 18, an hour and 15 minute ride up to the Upper East Side of Manhattan, where I went to a private Catholic girls' school that had, I guess, 40 students in each class. So total of a hundred and sixty women went to the school. It was a great experience. You know, it was the type school where we didn't have a gym. We took ballet. Where we took speech and etiquette, how to walk with books on our head, you know, learn how to walk properly. Yeah. Yeah. It was... It was a great experience. I enjoyed it immensely. It took me out of my comfort zone in the sense because some of the women, girls then, were daughters of ambassadors or, you know, well financed parents versus I was, you know, the girl from Brooklyn, you know. So a few years ago, it was our fortieth reunion. And here I am in Cleveland, and I was the one that organized it.

Caitlen Cameron [00:03:16] Really?

Pat Agatisa [00:03:16] Yeah. Yeah. I got the... I got the Dominican Girl Award at graduation. And that was like Miss Social, you know, like I was the friendly one that try to be everyone's friend. So I reached out and organized our fortieth anniversary reunion. And in 2022 it's our fiftieth, and I hope somebody else plans it but... [laughs] But the school was great. School was an old brownstone that had been owned by B. Altman of B. Altman and Co., a very well-known New York department store. He was a Jewish gentleman who was befriended by the Dominican nuns and he donated his home and mansion to the nuns.

Caitlen Cameron [00:04:03] Wow.

Pat Agatisa [00:04:03] So, you know, our... We had a ballroom, you know, with the huge paintings and tapestries and the like, which is where we took ballet. And there was a chapel, though I'm sure as a Jewish man it wasn't a chapel initially, but it became a chapel and the classrooms were the drawing room and the bedrooms. And I remember the bathroom had a tub because it had been a mansion. So, yeah, it was a great experience.

Caitlen Cameron [00:04:29] That's cool.

Pat Agatisa [00:04:29] Yeah. Yeah.

Caitlen Cameron [00:04:30] So it wasn't like dorms or anything?

Pat Agatisa [00:04:32] Oh no, no. I commuted.

Caitlen Cameron [00:04:34] Okay.

Pat Agatisa [00:04:34] Yeah, yeah. Mhm.

Caitlen Cameron [00:04:36] So coming from there, did you ever feel like, I don't know, because you had all these high society friends...

Pat Agatisa [00:04:43] Yeah.

Caitlen Cameron [00:04:44] Did they help you in the long run or did they make you feel like....

Pat Agatisa [00:04:47] No, they didn't. And I think that's why I got the... Oh, it was called the Old Dominican Girl Award. Now I remember. Because I just felt like I should be everyone's friend, and we were a close-knit group. And those relationships continue, you know, be it only by Facebook, but... And reunions when we get together.

Caitlen Cameron [00:05:08] Yeah.

Pat Agatisa [00:05:08] Yeah, yeah. So and from there I went to college in Brooklyn Heights in Brooklyn, St. Francis College, another nice Catholic college. And I commuted to there. And it was a school run by Franciscan brothers, very small also. Had gone... It had been in existence from like 1870s or something. So I went in, let's see, '72 to '76, 1972 to 1976. So it was about a hundred years old when I went, but it had only gone coed two years prior.

Caitlen Cameron [00:05:47] Oh.

Pat Agatisa [00:05:47] So I had come from a small old girl's high school to an almost all male college.

Caitlen Cameron [00:05:54] Oh my gosh.

Pat Agatisa [00:05:54] That was culture shock. I mean, I remember walking into the cafeteria and the school was on multiple levels because they had bought buildings next door to each other or added them. And I remember the first time I had to walk into the cafeteria, I was standing and there were like three steps down from where I was into the cafeteria. And I felt like I was on a platform and everyone was staring at me. I was like, okay, where am I going to sit? You know what I mean? It was like somebody's day in high school, you know, that first day, but it was in college. And I was a biology major and there were probably only twenty biology majors because it was mostly a business school. And, you know, got to know those students had actually met my husband there.

Caitlen Cameron [00:06:40] Really?

Pat Agatisa [00:06:41] Yeah. Yeah. So he was two years older than me. He was a biology major. But we met in French class and... But we were just friends during college. I met someone else actually after college, got engaged to him.

Caitlen Cameron [00:07:00] Okay.

Pat Agatisa [00:07:00] You know. And after college, I went on to Rutgers to get a Masters in genetic counseling, which is rather, it was a rather... Do you know about genetic counseling?

Caitlen Cameron [00:07:13] Mm-mm.

Pat Agatisa [00:07:14] Okay. At the time, it was a career that was very new that entails counseling people about genetic diseases that they have or they might pass on to their children. It was at a time when newborn screening became popular. You know, when, I don't know if you know about, they take a heel stick, the blood sample from babies, and they test for a number of genetic diseases.

Caitlen Cameron [00:07:41] Okay.

Pat Agatisa [00:07:42] And genetic counseling at that time for me was, you know, reaching out to the people whose children were diagnosed and informing the parents about what was in store, you know, educating them. But... So I had gone to Rutgers for my masters and I talked about I had a hundred applications?

Caitlen Cameron [00:08:01] Mhm.

Pat Agatisa [00:08:02] Well, when I graduated with my master's in genetic counseling, I sent out one hundred—in those days there wasn't online—

Caitlen Cameron [00:08:08] Yeah.

Pat Agatisa [00:08:10] I printed up a hundred resumes and a hundred letters and sent them to just about every hospital in the tri-state area. Got one interview. And I figured, okay, I have to really ace this interview if this is the only one I got. And it was at the State University of New York at Downstate, and it was for the sickle cell program. Sickle cell is a disease that is inherited in primarily African American population, and they needed a genetic counselor to work with the pediatric and the adult population. So I had an interview with the adult hematologist, the adult sickle cell doctor, and the pediatric sickle cell doctor. And when I knocked on the door, the pediatric sickle cell doctor's office, Jerry, my husband now, answered the door and he looked at me and he goes, Oh, I know her from St. Francis College. You should hire her. And I said, Oh, hi, Bill, which is his brother's name, who had been the president of the school.

Caitlen Cameron [00:09:11] Oh no!

Pat Agatisa [00:09:11] Yeah! [laughs] Well, to make a long story short, an hour, a year and a half later, we were married. The other engagement was ditched and, you know.

Caitlen Cameron [00:09:17] Really?

Pat Agatisa [00:09:18] Yeah, yeah. And we were married. I mean, we, you know, initially, we were friends, but something grew, and I cut off the engagement and yeah, it was meant to be, you know, so we're married now forty-one years, almost forty-two.

Caitlen Cameron [00:09:41] Congrats, that's amazing actually.

Pat Agatisa [00:09:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, you know, it was meant to be. And I talked about, you know, my husband being having polio. And when I told, you know, Jerry came around, met my parents and you know, knowing that he was handicapped and, you know, having polio, he has, you know, no muscle in his left leg, has a noticeable limp and, you know, with time, it's gotten harder for him to walk and now he wears a brace. But when I told my mother I was going to marry Jerry, she said to me, you know, he's going to be in a wheelchair one day. And I said, Yeah, Mom, and I'll push it. Yeah. And, you know, lately I do have to push it like at airports and stuff when he can't walk far. And I remember thinking that when I came home from California the other day, you know, about what my mother had said. And that's fine, you know? So I'm the person I am because of our relationship. So that we met in Brooklyn and he was the doctor's lab tech. He was her research assistant. And he had always wanted to be a physician. You know, growing up with polio, his mother and his grandmother had been very staunch proponents of him getting an education and one day becoming a doctor and finding the cure for polio. You know.

Caitlen Cameron [00:11:05] Yeah.

Pat Agatisa [00:11:05] I mean, the vaccine obviously came out. And when he was 30, he finally applied to medical school at State University of New York Downstate, and he went to medical school there. And he... And after medical school, you know, you go to do a residency, and he ended up being placed in Pittsburgh. So we moved to Pittsburgh...

Caitlen Cameron [00:11:30] Okay.

Pat Agatisa [00:11:31] In 1987.

Caitlen Cameron [00:11:34] So were you still doing the same job as before?

Pat Agatisa [00:11:38] I... Yeah. When we moved to Pittsburgh, I worked at SUNY Downstate for ten years when we moved to Pittsburgh. I did get a job in the sickle cell program at the Children's Hospital of Pittsburgh, and I worked there for nearly ten years. Okay? Jerry was doing his residency at Pittsburgh and did a rotation through hematology and mentioned, oh, you know, my wife's a genetic counselor, and it was a Friday, a Thursday or Friday. I was pregnant with my second son and the doctor in charge said, oh, we could use somebody like that. And like on Tuesday, I had an interview and Wednesday I had a job. And I was like, you know, I am pregnant. And, you know, this can only be part time. But, so I continued with her. So I was a genetic counselor, really combined about twenty years.

Caitlen Cameron [00:12:26] Wow.

Pat Agatisa [00:12:26] Yeah. And do you want to know further? My education? So I say when I was 40, I had a mid-life crisis and I decided I wanted to go back to school and the School of Public... There was the Children's Hospital, the School of Public Health and the middle school where our oldest son Colin was going. And I was curious about the School of Public Health, you know, a degree in public health. So I went there for an interview and ended up getting enrolled in the Ph.D. Program and... Took me eight years. I did it part time and I have a Ph.D. in public health and epidemiology with an emphasis on women's health.

Caitlen Cameron [00:13:06] Wow.

Pat Agatisa [00:13:07] Do you want to move into the shade? We can move the table that way.

Caitlen Cameron [00:13:11] I just...

Pat Agatisa [00:13:12] Okay, whatever.

Caitlen Cameron [00:13:15] That's amazing, so you have your Ph.D.?

Pat Agatisa [00:13:15] Yeah, yeah.

Caitlen Cameron [00:13:15] Congratulations. An amazing feat.

Pat Agatisa [00:13:20] I mean, I remember sitting at the kitchen table with my kids with us all doing our homework, so...

Caitlen Cameron [00:13:25] Really?

Pat Agatisa [00:13:26] Yeah. Yeah. And they were there when I did my defense. Colin was... It took me eight years so I started in, let me think... I graduated in, let's see, we moved here 2004 so I probably graduated and I did my postdoc in Pittsburgh, so like 2002. So my kids were like fourteen and, no, seventeen and thirteen or twelve. Yeah. So they were there at my defense. Jerry was next to me changing my slides and I don't know if you know about a defense, but you give your whole research and then they drill you.

Caitlen Cameron [00:14:09] Yeah.

Pat Agatisa [00:14:09] You know, and I'll never forget Brendon, who is this idyllic little ten year old with blond curly hair came and sat next to me. You know, I'm here at the defense. He came sat next to me. Most of the people left because they knew that's the decorum. And I just looked at my advisor and she kind of smiled and they drilled to me with Brendon standing right next to me, you know...

Caitlen Cameron [00:14:31] Really?

Pat Agatisa [00:14:32] Seated there. And, you know, obviously I passed. So my research was in actually in cardiova... Nontraditional risk factors of heart disease in women because, you know, heart disease is the number one killer of women. People don't realize that. They think it's breast cancer or something like that. And women have atypical symptoms and signs of heart disease and they tend to let it go unnoticed. You know, women bear the pain and they get a little indigestion or whatever. And so I looked into depression as being a risk factor for heart disease. That was my postdoc work. And my doctoral work was actually on women having hypertension during pregnancy and putting, setting themselves up for risk later in life, having heart disease. Yeah. So it was a great research trajectory. And every now and then I get posts from Researchgate. I don't know if you know what that is about. My citations and my thesis paper has like two hundred thirty, you know, it's like one of the sentinel papers about hypertension and pregnancy and the need for surveillance throughout your life, you know, to curtail the development of heart disease. So it was good work. It really was. Then we moved to Pittsburgh, I mean, from Pittsburgh to Cleveland for my husband's career once again. [laughs] You know, it happens. It happens. It happens. And I got a job at the Clinic, and this one was in the Women's Health Division, more reverting back to my genetic counseling work in which I worked with an ob-gyn about prenatal testing in women and their decision-making process. So, and that entailed a lot of interviewing women about what they thought about it, how they think doctors should explain things to them, what their role should be, what the doctor's role should be in finding out what their values and preferences were, instead of just handing out the stuff and saying, you're going to have this test. So that was great. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. I've been talking too much.

Caitlen Cameron [00:16:58] No, that's what this is.

Pat Agatisa [00:16:59] Yeah.

Caitlen Cameron [00:17:00] This.... Just to get this in there. Do you any advice or any notes that women should for, like risk factor, like, say, like you've mentioned hypertension. Is there anything that women need to watch out for, I guess, throughout their life?

Pat Agatisa [00:17:20] Throughout their life? I think they shouldn't deny if they have pain. If they're feeling uncomfortable, when women tend to grin and bear it, they take care of their partners and children more so than themselves, you know. So they should obviously eat healthy and exercise. But they... You know, when issues come up, they should speak up.

Caitlen Cameron [00:17:50] Okay.

Pat Agatisa [00:17:50] Yeah.

Caitlen Cameron [00:17:52] Thank you.

Pat Agatisa [00:17:52] And especially women that had hypertension during pregnancy. That should be on their medical history so they get routine, you know, blood pressure checks and lipid tests or that kind of thing. Mhm.

Caitlen Cameron [00:18:04] Because the stress on your body's one thing but I mean.

Pat Agatisa [00:18:06] Yeah.

Caitlen Cameron [00:18:06] But especially on your heart.

Pat Agatisa [00:18:07] Right. And depression. Having an effect on your heart also is something that's overlooked, you know. So... Mhm.

Caitlen Cameron [00:18:13] Well, thank you.

Pat Agatisa [00:18:13] Yeah.

Caitlen Cameron [00:18:15] So, okay. So you made it to Cleveland...

Pat Agatisa [00:18:16] Yeah!

Caitlen Cameron [00:18:16] After, after following him.

Pat Agatisa [00:18:21] And I'm here 17 years now. We moved in 2004. Yeah. August 2nd we bought our house. I mean, we moved in, so 17 years here now.

Caitlen Cameron [00:18:30] Wow. So are you in the Shaker Heights area or are you in Cleveland Heights?

Pat Agatisa [00:18:33] Shaker.

Caitlen Cameron [00:18:35] Shaker?

Pat Agatisa [00:18:35] Mhm.

Caitlen Cameron [00:18:35] And you've always been in Shaker since you've been here?

Pat Agatisa [00:18:36] Yeah. Mhm.

Caitlen Cameron [00:18:36] Wow. That's...

Pat Agatisa [00:18:39] Yeah.

Caitlen Cameron [00:18:40] Is it... Do you know what year your house was built?

Pat Agatisa [00:18:42] Yes. 1914. I live on Green Lake, which is one of the small lakes. Do you know where Green Lake is? It's that way. Okay. And Dozie's my neighbor, you know. She and I did a lot of research on our... Which is kind of how we know the historic society too. We did a lot of research on the architect of our homes because it was the same architect. When you see our houses, you'll see they don't really look alike. But Harry Shupe was and I can't remember the first name, but [Carl] White, it was Shupe & White [White & Shupe] who built my house and Shupe alone built Dozie's house. My house was built in 1914. It was the first house built on Green Lake. There's eleven houses on the lake and the original owner was Frederick Green, hence Green Lake.

Caitlen Cameron [00:19:28] Yeah.

Pat Agatisa [00:19:29] So I feel proud of that. Yeah, it's a lovely Dutch colonial. You'll have to come visit. When we went to see it, you know, when Jerry got offered the job... Actually we went house hunting before Jerry was actually offered the job at the Cleveland Clinic. We found it. We put an offer on it and then he finally got his offer for a job. But it was in the workings, you know. When we got to it, we just looked at it and saw that it's on the lake and we said, okay, we'll buy it. And I remember the realtor looking at us like you didn't even walk inside. And we said, you don't understand. We're from Brooklyn. We'll buy it, you know? [laughs] You know, it's the ideal location. So it's been lovely. When we bought it, our younger son Brendon was a sophomore in high school and Colin was a sophomore in college. So we brought the seven-bedroom house, which was ridiculously large, but it's just idyllic. So and I've been working on the garden ever since. Mhm. Yeah.

Caitlen Cameron [00:20:35] So that's what I wanted to ask you. So did you have a garden at anywhere in your past or did you start in the Shaker [house]?

Pat Agatisa [00:20:43] Well, in Brooklyn, we had a small garden that my mother tended to and it was more of the rhododendrons and forsythia and impatiens. And I remember there were... There was a peach tree and a nectarine tree in the backyard that my dad had planted. And as a result, I hate peaches and nectarines because that's what we ate all summer. And we had peach pie and peach cobbler and nectarine this and that. I cannot eat those...

Caitlen Cameron [00:21:06] Really?

Pat Agatisa [00:21:08] [Laughs] Those fruit, you know, but I didn't tend to it. Oh, though I remember one... I forgot about that. When I was probably middle school age, I decided to rip up part of the backyard and plant a vegetable garden while my dad was at work. So my younger sister—I have three sisters, some of them must've helped me—and we tore up the backyard and my father came home and I think he could have killed us for ripping up the lawn. But we were getting ready to plant tomatoes and basil. And I'm Italian. Agatisa is my name. My husband's name is Boyle. So, you know, it was like ingrained in us. You had to have tomatoes and basil growing. Yeah. So that was my first garden, now that I think of it. When we moved to Pittsburgh, we bought kind of a brownstone that had a postage-stamp front yard and back yard. You know, that I... I had neighbors that advised me. There was one man two doors down that helped me with designing the front yard. And the back yard had the most majestic magnolia tree that... My neighbor had grown up in the house that I lived in and then moved next door and she said that her family had planted that tree. So when we were there, it was like 30 years old. So it was beautiful. And we took pictures of it before we moved because we knew we'd miss the magnolia tree. But they were small. And then when I moved to my house in Shaker... I'm going to move back because of the sun.

Caitlen Cameron [00:22:44] That's fine.

Pat Agatisa [00:22:44] The previous owner had done a lot of gardening. So the backbones were there. And, you know, I had to hire a landscaper and Dozie was next door and she's an avid gardener. And she would come over and hint—weed. [laughs] If you walk through Dozie's... If she'd come and visit, if she'd walk through my lawn, she'd be picking all of these things out, you know, and I'm like, Dozie, it's okay, it's green.

Caitlen Cameron [00:23:10] Every clover?

Pat Agatisa [00:23:10] Yes.

Caitlen Cameron [00:23:11] Wow!

Pat Agatisa [00:23:11] Oh yeah. If it isn't... If it isn't a blade of grass, she's a fanatic. I tell my landscapers as long as it's green, I don't care. Yeah, but she helped me a lot. And, you know, by trial and error, I started planting different things and...

Caitlen Cameron [00:23:29] We can try to move.

Pat Agatisa [00:23:29] Yeah, let's... Yeah, let's just move into the shade. [recording paused]

Caitlen Cameron [00:23:34] [Recording resumes] Alright. We are back. We moved into the shade a little bit...

Pat Agatisa [00:23:36] [Laughs]

Caitlen Cameron [00:23:36] But, as you were saying, with your lovely garden behind your house and picking out the clovers...

Pat Agatisa [00:23:44] Mhm. Yeah, it's it's a huge garden. We have an acre and a half. So there is gardens in the back, gardens on the side, gardens in the front. Many of my plants are donations from Dozie and other, now, other Village Garden Club members. We do plant swaps, which is really handy. So I really try to plant perennials, not annuals, getting more into more native plants instead of, you know, ornamentals that are short-lived.

Caitlen Cameron [00:24:19] So what is a native plant?

Pat Agatisa [00:24:22] Yeah, a native plant is a plant that grows in this climate, has always been in this climate, you know. We talked about... Dozie talked about Black-eyed Susans or Coneflowers. Those are fairly native, you know, versus putting in, you know, annuals like petunias. And was it, oh, and impatiens and that kind of thing. You know, plants that attract butterflies like milkweed and butterfly, you know, attractive type things, plants with trumpet flowers so that the hummingbirds come and, you know, my garden is not landscaped, you know, so that... It's not perfectly groomed and sculpted. It's kind of a wild mess at this point because I was gone for two weeks. But it brings me great joy. It really does. You know, when we came home from California the other day, the first thing I had to do was walk outside and, like, just look at all the beds and the weeds, but, you know, cut some flowers and bring them inside. I have a sunroom that... That's the favored room in my house because it's, you know, two sides of windows. And I can sit in it all winter long and still feel like I'm outside in my garden.

Caitlen Cameron [00:25:45] Yeah.

Pat Agatisa [00:25:46] You know? So, yeah, it's an ideal place to live, and I always say, as long as we live in Cleveland, we won't sell the house even though it's way too large, you know, but I could never drive by it if I still lived in Cleveland, you know? So we're here for a while.

Caitlen Cameron [00:26:07] That's a great... It's kind of an honor to live in a Shaker house. I feel like everybody who lives in one, it's like such history and such a rich... Like your surroundings are all part of Shaker, part of the Heights and the development of the area. So that's really great that you cherish it.

Pat Agatisa [00:26:26] Yeah, I feel like I'm the steward of the house now, not necessarily the owner, and it will be passed on to somebody else. I feel the spirit of the people that lived in it before and I honor them. And actually two people have come into my house and told me I have a ghost. Literally, they walk in...

Caitlen Cameron [00:26:41] Do you think you do?

Pat Agatisa [00:26:42] Now I wonder. Do you want me to share that story? When I first moved to Shaker, I joined the East Side Welcome Club. You might have heard about it from other people. Sally... I was a president of it. Sally was a past president. Dozie was the vice-pr[esident]... I got Dozie involved when I was the president. But anyway, I had a meeting at my house. It might've been book club or something from the East Side Welcome Club, and a woman literally walked in my house and said to me, you know you have a ghost? And I said, well, he or she must be very happy because he or she has not manifested themselves to me. And she said it's a she. That was the end of discussion. Okay?

Caitlen Cameron [00:27:23] Really?

Pat Agatisa [00:27:23] Yeah. Soon afterwards... Oh, maybe a few years later, when I was working at the Clinic, one of my coworkers' husband on the side, did a painting and I needed the kitchen painted or something. I don't know, I think he started in the kitchen. Yeah. So he came to my house and he walked in and his eyes like lightened up, like whitened, I mean, and he said, you know you have a ghost? The same exact line. And I said, well, he or she must be happy because, you know, they haven't met with us because they haven't manifested themselves. And he said it's a she. So I was like...

Caitlen Cameron [00:28:03] Same thing.

Pat Agatisa [00:28:04] The same exact thing. And I said, okay. And I said, yeah, someone else told me that. He goes, Oh, yeah, you have a ghost. So I don't know, it was that day or when he came back, you know, for the... After the estimate and planning what color and all that other stuff. He and I, I know it's kind of crazy because I'm a scientist, you know, I'm an educated woman. You know, I'm an epidemiologist. He and I were standing in the kitchen talking about what color I was going to paint the kitchen, a pretty like light sage green. And the two of us had the sensation of like a cold wash coming from behind us and going out the windows towards the lake to the point that I got goosebumps, and his eyes and I were like, whoa! And I looked at him and I was like, Jeff? And I said, Did you feel? Then he goes, Oh, yeah, that was her. And he said, Don't worry, ma'am, we'll... I'll make sure I do a nice job in the house. You know, it will be beautiful. And he painted the house while I was gone and, you know, at work. And one day he told me he did see her sitting on the couch in the living room in a white dress. So I'm convinced it's Mrs. Green, you know, the original owner. I mean, it's hard for me to say that, but a lot of people that live in Shaker talk about spirits that they feel in their homes. And, you know, if she's there, I hope she's happy with us. But as I said, you know, I've had this house and all the people before me and after me hopefully will... I know the people before me treasured it, and hopefully the people after me will, too.

Caitlen Cameron [00:29:44] Yeah, that's a great story because I've heard that the ghost, like, you know, how there's historic preservation and making sure that house stay the same. I've heard that ghosts are the real historic preservation.

Pat Agatisa [00:30:01] Yeah. [laughs]

Caitlen Cameron [00:30:01] Because they make sure things do not change.

Pat Agatisa [00:30:03] Yeah, yeah. [laughs] Well, it might've been because he was painting, you know.

Caitlen Cameron [00:30:06] Well that's great.

Pat Agatisa [00:30:07] Yeah. Yeah.

Caitlen Cameron [00:30:08] So I guess I kind of wanted to know, you have this garden, right behind your hous

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