Abstract

Luisa Owen-Lang was born in 1935 in a small village in Yugoslavia and immigrated to the United States at the age of sixteen in 1951. In this interview, she discusses her childhood during the expulsion and subsequent ethnic cleansing of ethnic Germans. She also recounts her experiences as she was separated from her family and forced to endure harsh conditions in multiple concentration camps at the age of nine and her life after she moved to the United States. Owen-Lang also wrote a book about her experiences called Casualty of War: A Childhood Remembered, published by Texas A&M University Press.

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Interviewee

Owen-Lang, Luisa (interviewee)

Interviewer

Waldvogel, Madison (interviewer)

Project

Cleveland German-American Oral History Project

Date

4-8-2021

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

87 minutes

Transcript

Madison Waldvogel [00:00:02] So this is Matty, or Madison Waldvogel, sorry!

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:00:10] (laughs) Did you change your name?

Madison Waldvogel [00:00:12] No!

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:00:14] I'm here. How are you?

Madison Waldvogel [00:00:16] Good, how are you today?

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:00:18] I'm fine, I. You called me on my cell phone, but that's OK.

Madison Waldvogel [00:00:26] Oh, I can call you back if you prefer to do another number.

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:00:30] So is that the only number you had, so I forgot and let's just stay on it. It's good.

Madison Waldvogel [00:00:37] All right. And then just to remind you, I will be recording this call so that we can transcribe it later.

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:00:44] Oh, good.

Madison Waldvogel [00:00:46] All right, and are you ready to begin?

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:00:48] Yes.

Madison Waldvogel [00:00:49] All right. So just as an introduction, my name is Madison Waldvogel and I am a student at Cleveland State University and I'm working with the Oral History Project at Cleveland State. And then just for reference, today's date is April 4, 2021. And I am interviewing Luisa Owen-Lang. And I would like for this to be a more free form discussion about your childhood experiences and your immigration to America and whatever you're comfortable with sharing with me. Is that OK?

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:01:19] That is fine. But today's date is the 8th.

Madison Waldvogel [00:01:24] The 8th, you're right. So correction. Oh, I don't know why I said 4th. So, this is a correction. It's April 8, 2021.

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:01:32] I just throught– I'm used to being a teacher, you know, I listen hard. So here it is. Yes. So I will abide by your rules and your questions and I'll try not to deviate. So if I do, would you please just sort of, I don't know what, include a bit and let's keep it to your task, so to speak.

Madison Waldvogel [00:02:03] All right. Well, let's get started. So first, can I have your full name and your date of birth?

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:02:10] OK. My name is Luisa, L U I S A, Lang, L A N G. That was my maiden name, and my married name is Owen, which I kept. So it's Luisa Lang-Owen. And my date of birth is ... 1935. And what was the message?

Madison Waldvogel [00:02:40] Oh I have– So have, the rest, for the rest, could you tell me about the village you grew up in and your early family life? Because in this book, in the book you wrote, you painted such like a beautiful picture of your village. And I would like to hear more information about that and your family life.

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:02:59] OK, well, I was born in the little village, as I said, 1935. That's when the village got its electricity. So in other words, everything else was, how should I say, more on the primitive side or before electricity. So I was born into a multi-ethnic village of which there were about five hundred Germans. I think if I can remember correctly what I said in the book, but you can verify this by the book. So there were, instead of saying amounts, there were more, I think Serbs and Hungarians and then German. There were some, a few family of Jews and there were gypsies and also families of Slovaks, Czechoslovakian, so to speak. And this all was when it was settled it used to be swampland. And Maria Teresa settled some Germans from Alsace and from those German provinces. And Austrians, so they settled there, but Serbs also settled, so they got land from the Austrian Empire and so it was, how should I say, it was very varied in culture. My experiences as a child, because we all lived in the village and the houses were next to each other and some houses were occupied by Serbs, some by Hungarians, some by Germans. And I said all those very places the gypsies kept to the side, to the outside of the village, at the fringes of it. But each house had its own ambience that was more culturally determined. So although we shared the same life around the field, then it was agricultural mostly. And the people that were– The people that were the– Like my father was a blacksmith. So the people that sustained this agricultural society were people that were needed like the wagon maker and whatever have you. And there was a doctor and there was a pharmacist and there were schoolteachers in the various languages. Sometimes all children had to go to Serb school and sometimes they had their individual schools depending on what the world was doing. In other words, who was the one that determined such things like that. It was a Austro-Hungarian Empire or the Hungarian Empire or the Serb King. So when I was born, I was born in Yugoslavia. That's what this place was then called, this land, and we had a king, so we were loyal to our country and to our king, but we were of German descent and we kept our language and culture in this multi-ethnic village where we were neighborly, and with neighbors we had our own, let's say, clubs or our own holidays, which were varied because there were Greek Orthodox and Catholics. So did I say enough about that? So there was a mix of people and I was a child in this place. And since it was a village, I played with children of the neighbors, which were of different ethnic descent. And so I learned very quickly. I was bilingual when, my mother says when I was one, but of course mothers say those things but (laughs) when I started speaking fluently, immediately I spoke both languages. So that was a nice little trick, became easy. And later I learned to speak Hungarian, but that was much older, like seven. So.

Madison Waldvogel [00:08:09] So you grew up, it seems like, it sounds like you grew up in a very, very diverse village with a whole bunch of cultures going on at the same time. At home did you mainly speak German then?

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:08:20] Yes. And with our– Some of the people in the village spoke only their own language, and the Serbs were good at that. I don't know if it was their tribe or their king or– At the time when I was conscious of these things, I knew that some Serbs may have spoken German and they did. And probably in the Austro Hungarian empire, they had to speak Hungarian because of the Hungarian influence. So in other words, we didn't necessarily speak each other's language even. And so even as children, we kept– Sometimes some people kept to their own kind, so to speak. And– But my mother had a very good friend. Her best friend was Serb, which was not the usual thing. And so she came every day. And because they spoke Serb, because this person didn't speak German, although two houses away, she lived all her life from us. And so, in other words, I learned from that to me a very fortunate coincidence. So it's– And we then traded the cultural things. So when they had Christmas or Easter, we witnessed or I witnessed and I was allowed to participate in that celebration, which was very different from what I thought I was for. So I was well-educated in that diversity and it served me well through those other things that were not so pleasant. So, am I going too fast as far as speech?

Madison Waldvogel [00:10:19] Oh, no, you're– No, you're fine.

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:10:22] Good, good. I'm trying to be. Articulate speech is not exactly what I always do.

Madison Waldvogel [00:10:29] No, you're fine, but– So can you tell me more about life in your family and like who you lived with and stuff like that?

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:10:39] So I was the only child. I did have a sister that died at nine months from the whooping cough. And somehow or other I learned very quick because of my mother's sadness. I learned very quickly that I took someone else's place. I don't know what that did to me, but I always knew it. So at those times, people would have, you know, there was no television and no radio when I was born. So in other words, people talked to each other. So I got the people that were long dead, even if they were neighbors, were known through people talked about them. And this was an agricultural society. That is what bound us together. Our mutual concern and our mutual experiences in nature, in what our life was about, farming and living off the land. So we had plenty of diversity. But the basic thing we shared. So we may not speak each other's languages, but those experiences that we shared, we shared in common. There was no, how should I say? It made us know about each other's lives through that. And in the evenings when people would come from the field, they would sit outside in front of their houses and the children would play outside. And sometimes when it got very dark to play, you sat next to other people and listened to these conversations. And sometimes people that were identified by what had happened to them, like this so-and-so person, that everybody knew that her daughter had died at 19. But when she got stung or she was cutting roses and she got this whatever disease and died. So somehow certain experiences there were long past when I was born were known. So we knew about each other's grandparents and great grandparents, even if they were dead. You know? I don't know why I got stuck on this, but–

Madison Waldvogel [00:13:27] No, it's very interesting. So it's kind of like you guys didn't necessarily need a common language to unite all of you because you were all living off of the same land. And that all kind of connected you in a way that languages can't.

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:13:43] Yes. And it was beautiful, and you can't imagine. If you ever been on the seas, if you would think of this as land, so, and there were lots of grain and mostly they used to call it the breadbasket of Europe. So a yellow sea, you know, when the grain moved in these waves of things, and very high sky, beautiful, beautiful. It– Even today, you know, when I wrote this book, people said, oh, it's so idyllic. I described it idyllic. And later on I went there and now I have people that I've since then met and who are much younger, maybe in their 30s now, when I am 85, this woman talks about it, that land. And it has changed, but exactly with that fervor, as if we were a tree that, like, we were grounded in the soil and we recognize each other, even if we are of different nationalities or ethnic groups or whatever you say today, you know? So–.

Madison Waldvogel [00:15:06] Yeah.

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:15:07] It's that we say our Germans like we may be German from long ago, three hundred years ago, but we belong to that land. And so we identify. We might be proud of our ancestry. And they called themselves, these people that I belong to call themselves Donauschwaben, that the Swabians that came across north, not across, along the Danube, all the way from from all Uhl in Germany and– But they came from different provincialities and they came from Alsace and some were French. And some of my ancestry came from Alsace, and so even though we were loyal and we sang our songs and kept our culture and kept our cooking, whatever that was, good cooking, that we learned from other people around us, but we weren't like, we never became like a melting pot like that they say here. Except for those that are kept out of the pot, you know? Here, how should I say, here the excluded people, you know, here, it's not like they excluded people there. You know?

Madison Waldvogel [00:16:56] Mm-hmm.

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:16:57] Even the gypsies had more dignity, even though we kept to our own segregation. And sometimes within the ethnic group, the rich people segregated themselves from the poor, you know, like they celebrated a different locale, you know, or they couldn't marry each other because they weren't rich enough or something like that. So there were plenty of segregation and also sometimes very ill will towards different nationalities. But that feeling was usually brought by some other force, like the force of war, you know. So what happened to us was not so much indebtedness. Because, how should I say, then you love the same thing. (laughs) When you love this land, so to speak, there is more of a chance that you look at your each other with some respect because of that. I just made that up right now. Sorry. (laughs).

Madison Waldvogel [00:18:19] No, it's OK.

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:18:20] It's nothing like black and white is here. (phone rings) See, that's what would happen, but OK, I made short shrift of that, or I thought so. But anyway, so it– I don't know how to do this, I guess. I'm so sorry. (answering machine voice).

Madison Waldvogel [00:18:43] Oh, no you're fine.

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:18:46] OK. OK. See, I don't know how to turn it off. It's like a curse here. OK, fine, I got it. So I think we should get on with it. (laughs) Not hang on this thing. I love this village and I would say I feel more like, wherever I come from, then I feel German, I'm sorry to say, so you can see in the book when we went to Germany, it was great that we could speak our language without feeling like we were the enemy of the people, you know, but it wasn't home. And so I think that's important to say. And the people were cordial to each other. But sometimes there were these animosities around land who was favored by law. Like I say, it somehow came from the political scene outside, but not, you know, you didn't sweat bullets because somebody Serb moved next to you because that was the usual thing of the stuff, you know, not like when I came here in the 50s, you know? I went to the art academy in Cincinnati and I got so excited when they said Frisch's is coming and we will all go to was a small school. So I'm yelling through the corridor to someone. Joyce, Joyce! Joyce came from Jamaica. She was black. And I said, we're going to Frisch's! Come! And my friend looked at me like– She said, why are you so mean to her? Don't you know she can't go there? That was in 1956.

Madison Waldvogel [00:20:53] Wow.

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:20:54] So I wanted you to know that this segregation and this stuff that we did at home and which did bring about the demise of the people and which almost killed us, wasn't something like what is here. I think what this here–

Madison Waldvogel [00:21:21] So you would say that it was more born from what was going on outside of your village than (cross talk) kind of like seeped its way in?

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:21:32] Outside the world, the political world, you know? The political world was already in our country, you know, and it worked itself out. And so it was retribution for the German occupation or something like that. But it wasn't bred in a way like– I wanted you to understand that because it's a problem here now, you know? We're been talking about a problem that kills, you know, because that's why you're interviewing me, isn't it? So you want to see what has happened, you know, and so that we are wise about it. I'd say this is more demeaning, infumanizing, what is going on right here. Demeaning.

Madison Waldvogel [00:22:25] Yes. So I, I think what makes your story so interesting to read is because it's through the eyes of a child because you were nine years old at the time, correct?

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:22:38] Yes. I was, well, then the war started I was a little younger. In our country when they came in, I forgot now, '41 or '42, and they took my father because he was German. They took my father in the German, whatever thing they had there. And also some of the other Croats were also against the communists, the army. So in other words. But they weren't punished afterwards. Maybe singular people were punished. But this ethnic cleansing was directed to the German minority, which had been there for 300 years. So it was like, I don't know if it was some kind of retribution and so that's– I don't know why I deviated into today. I feel that this thing that we're concerned about how people can be neighbors and even have the same life and then kill each other, you know. It's alive and well and everywhere that you hear it on the news. So but this happened, well, so long ago.

Madison Waldvogel [00:24:05] So when, because you describe this beautiful village, as you said, this sea of gold and grains. When did you say you would, or how did you kind of notice that drastic kind of shift in the atmosphere in the village, as you could tell, that things were headed in a more difficult direction?

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:24:28] I saw it was a coincidence in some ways, when the German soldiers came into our village. But even before they came, there was an upheaval. And then they took some people captive of not German descent, and they held them. And they were sort of rumors of war with Germany. And then our king fled to England. He was young and whatever. So they went. So we were sort of exposed. Then the Germans then ran over us, the Germans from Germany you know, and the only nice thing about them was, I mean, that we immediately noticed they valued our friendly because they we spoke their language. They spoke our language. You know how it is. It's like that. And so then they took my father away and my mother was so against it and I could hear them talk about it. And there was this upheaval. And then they took away the Jews from our village. Nobody talked about it, but I accidentally saw some of their furniture outside coming home from school. And it so disturbed me. I can still remember the feeling and the feeling was that it was so severely painful that I wanted to disown it. Like I could feel as a little child. I walk and I think I wanted to go back to that place where I didn't know this feeling. You know, it was so sorrowful. And I– it's hard to think that I made that up as a grown up because I remember it so severe– I mean, so distinctly. And I went home and told my mother what it was. It's, I think it's fear that communicates to the child, fear and the change that sort of, you know, a peaceful, the things that I described to you that you see in that world and there's even with my mother would punish me. That wasn't so nice, you know, the thing was sort of a hole. You feel protected or you feel in your own environment and then something sort of tears us usunder, you know, and people are afraid and they mistrust each other and you see ugly things. That's when you realize something is going on. And it just got worse and worse and worse till, you know, till we were targeted. And then that was a big surprise. Why would we be targeted? You know, we didn't do anything to anyone. You know? There is a kind of naiveness. We weren't political at all. And our men, our brothers and fathers were away at war because the German army took them because of their ethnicity into the war. They were. If they didn't go, they were shot, you know, so like any other person that gets away, you know–

Madison Waldvogel [00:28:03] Yes.

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:28:04] They were, what is it, conscribed or conscription? You know, it had to be done. So it's not that easy. Maybe some people went there, you know, like wanted to be soldiers, but most of them didn't. And so, in other words, it was this horrible thing that we heard. And then the Russians were chasing the Germans back to wherever they came from and they had to go through our country. So we were occupied by the Russians for a while before they put us into concentration camps. And then we heard because Marshall Tito, who was a British communist who was in the woods with these communist after the Russians came and before they left, he served the power of the government. Then there was a decree against the Germans that had lived there for three hundred years, regardless of their political affiliation, because some people also were partisans or their children were partisans and they were Germans. They had to– Their property was confiscated. Their– All over night. Oh, it probably was a meeting that didn't last very long and shall be for the whole country, which was called then Yugoslavia. And everyone who is of German descent would have to relinquish their rights. They had no rights to any kind of law or, you know, you couldn't go to court or anything. And your property, even if you lived in your house, it belongs to the state. So anything you owned, fields or animals, whatever you owned, no longer was your possession. And then finally they came and took us away in little groups. First they took away the old men and they disappeared and you didn't know where they were. And then they took the young women. They had a wonderful little– They went by the calendar like, who is the age group, you know, they– From 18 to 31 or 30, women were taken away. They're disappeared. Women that had children under the age of two were allowed to stay home within that age group, but it was mathematically correct that it made your– I mean, it was insane, but that is going on. And even in '92, when they had their ethnic cleansing that everybody heard about because there was TV and then, too, they denied they were doing it. But those numbers were the same when they took boys and stuff away by a certain age group. And just to kill them, you know, or you never knew what they did with them till long after. So they took the young women to Russia. And one of my aunts had a two year old, but she was taken and one of my aunts had a baby six weeks old when they finally took us. So she stayed home and had another and who had twins. I don't know. They were, I think, nine months old. They all took us on January 2nd at night, 1945, before the war ended because it ended in May, I think, and we were taken from our village. I mean, they came with the men with guns, and I thought they were going to take my mother away. And I screamed bloody murder and please, please don't take my mother away. And there's some kind of psychological thing we had. We had a high window that was the height of the ceiling, but small. But my mother would have to go on some kind of chair to open it up usually. But someone knocked at that thing. And I had the experience as if the house was inverted. I mean, it was such a shock that those visual images are still in my mind, you know? And it was so dreadful. And then when they said, no, you're all going, I couldn't stop thanking the man. It was a young man that had the gun, you know, and he probably was from the village, but I didn't know him. But there were more people not from the village that were so sorry that came that came to take us. And then they took us away. It was very, very cold. And then we never got back. Never. We used to hope we would get back, but we never got back. I think I'm getting lost. So.

Madison Waldvogel [00:34:11] (laughs) No, you just– You just led me to my next point. So if you're comfortable with this next part, could you possibly share about some of the details of your experience that after you are forced to leave your village with your mother and all the other people that you are with?

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:34:32] Oh, well, I forgot the one experience which I just mentioned when it was very bad and we were still in the village, they shot a bunch of men and we were supposed to come in and watch it. And while lots of people went, I don't know if the Germanswent but some did. And my mother left us in our yard and wouldn't go. And then she must have had a terrible premonition that this was the beginning of the end and she didn't know what the end was, so it surprised us. And then we had a well in the yard and she asked me if I would jump with her in the well. Well, I was very afraid of frogs and there were always frogs in the well and it was a, had a shaft built out from bricks. And that was the horrible experience. But finally when she saw me walking towards the well, because I couldn't believe that she would do it, even though I was nine and a half years old, you know. And so she suddenly fell in front of me and asked me to forgive her. And I couldn't even respond to it. I couldn't even be glad. So there were these things that happened to other people, like they're shot. And so they– It was a short preparation to some things that you would never want to know. So then we were in this camp, the first one, they finally did take my mother away. And that was a horrendous thing. And that also had an image with it, which I didn't see, but which inserted itself into my memory. And it was like a huge, huge– I'm sure there was into this stall. Maybe it had big doors because it was a sheep stall where they put us in and my– The six month old baby, his diapers froze to it, froze, like I said, saying, you know? I mean, there were things which you do– you can't be told. They were individual, as many experiences as many people, that many varied experiences, you know? And so in the store, they also– I mean, we had to go out to, you know, there were no toilets or anything. And of course, these people were old. And so by tents, they put us out in this cold to do whatever we had to do. And some people couldn't get up and they made fun of people. And my grandfather was very frightened. And so my mother wasn't there. And this little boy that his mother they took away too, later on, we knew to Russia, and he was with us. And so my grandfather was scared. So he put a knife in his heart. I mean he tried to commit suicide.

Madison Waldvogel [00:38:12] Oh my goodness.

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:38:14] But it got stuck on his breastbone and people wanted to hide it because if they had seen that they would have shot him, you know? But in other words, these things I'm saying, they're all in the book, so it's nothing I could hide. These are sort of lived experiences and they are awful. But when you live them, they're just occurrences, you know–

Madison Waldvogel [00:38:49] And they become like a part of you, right?

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:38:52] Yes, yes. And then when you when you go, you have to go to the, I say bathroom, you have to go to pee. You can say that, but somebody's sensitive (laughs) but you have to go and you're on the way down, and the grandfather has already put the knife in his heart. It's not that I was oblivious to it and the women were sheltering him. And whatever it was, I described, and so, in the book, so I walked down and I couldn't go out right away or they weren't in nothing. But I did stuff because in this cold place, they have a fire in the middle of this and all around there was straw. So we were on straw like they could have fried that if they wanted to, but [00:39:49][inaudible]. [0.0s] So we were there and they were playing music on the guitar and warming themselves on fire because they were like guards in prison. They are in prison, too, you know what I mean? They're– And they're all the old people and children. There was nobody to fear, you know, so they sang this very beautiful love song. And since I understood their language, I caught myself– Suddenly I was transported back into the village because they were just people, you know, and then I caught myself saying I know a sad song, too, because it was a love song that I had learned from the neighbor girl, you know, who was older than I. But, or they had– Doesn't matter. From home. But that's where I was when I learned it. So they asked me to sing. And then from then on, I think that was that kind of, I don't know, I was identified as the little girl that could sing. And but when you were in a concentration camp. Any good thing that might single you out for getting less punishment or more of this or that, you know, that you need, it doesn't last long. It's not something, 'cause guards change. And so you can't count on anything, you know, any achievement that you had. But I think what I kept is this thing that I could see– I knew the killer in them, but I could see because maybe because I was a child, I could see the human in them or that the things that I knew through the village, you know, the goodness in them. I don't know how to say it without being modern, you know? It's something that happens, you know, that–

Madison Waldvogel [00:42:08] Oh, sorry. Would you say that your age and your perception of the world at the time had a huge impact on like how it kind of motivated you to see the world around you like you just said?

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:42:22] Maybe– You know, I don't want to single people out, but I was always very observant–

Madison Waldvogel [00:42:29] Hello? (phone connection issue)

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:42:30] Hello? Are you there? Hello?

Madison Waldvogel [00:42:35] Sorry. (long pause) Hello!

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:42:58] I'm here.

Madison Waldvogel [00:42:58] Sorry about that, it started raining where I live, so I think that kind of cut off the connection there.

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:43:05] Oh gosh! Is it bad storm or–.

Madison Waldvogel [00:43:08] No, it's kind of, it's kind of just steady rain right now. So we should be OK to keep continuing on.

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:43:15] OK, and so in other words, you ask me, I think I was always observant. And when I was little people would sort of, how should I say, people would test me like even Serb people, like they would at 3:00, they'd send me to the store—we didn't have grocery store, we just had a store—to buy something for them. And I got that charge out of it that I could do that, you know? So I was probably a little more advanced in my age, but maybe that had, my age, but there were plenty of children there that didn't feel like that. It's a very curious thing. I think I was in my 50s or past, I was in Europe and I met one of the people just by coincidence, that was my age that was there in the same camp. And he talked to me. I didn't know what he knew. We didn't– We didn't cross-examine each other. And he says out of nowhere, he's now this man was my age, you know, in his 50s, and he says, I remember you singing to the guards. And he said, and after that, it was better. That means to me, I just thought I was affirmed like, you know, when you have these experiences with people, you think, well, maybe you made it up and part of it you probably did because you're listening to me now and I don't know what you're doing in your mind with what I'm saying. But be this as it may be, he didn't mean that it got better. It got better for him because he could not– He was no longer afraid so much of them, you know? It didn't do anything to us. We didn't get anything. I didn't make a difference. What made the difference is him seeing that I wasn't afraid and seeing this thing and it made him less afraid too maybe. I may– Maybe you're right. Maybe that was possible because he was a child also. You know, he was close to 10 years old, you know, so he wasn't exactly a tiny child that you could give anything to. He had an understanding of and at 10 maybe you remember yourself and you remember many things, I'm sure.

Madison Waldvogel [00:46:15] Mm-hmm. So over the course of your time, how many camps did they transport you to?

Luisa Lang-Owen [00:46:24] At first they it was rather many because they had something in mind. They wanted to– Of course, they confiscated everything they had and they always kept taking away things because what we could take was, in fact that you could gather within 15 minutes. So we had some clothes and some food. But eventually when they put this into t

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