Devinity Interview, 25 July 2023

Abstract

Devinity (b. 1979) grew up in Sandersville, Georgia, before moving to Cleveland in 1992. Devinity discusses coming out as a transgender woman in the 1990s, her career as a female illusionist/entertainer, and discrimination within the LGBTQ+ community. Devinity discusses working as former employee of the LGBT Community Center of Greater Cleveland, including her involvement in the Center's Trans Wellness Program, Transgender Day of Remembrance, Transgender Day of Visibility, and Pride events. She discusses founding the Trans Wellness Resources and Support Network and her ongoing work as a LGBTQ+ community activist.

Interviewee

Devinity (interviewee)

Interviewer

Habyl, Riley (interviewer)

Project

LGBTQ+ Cleveland

Date

7-25-2023

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

145 minutes

Recommended Citation

"Devinity Interview, 25 July 2023" (2023). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 701004.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/1263

Transcript

Riley Habyl [00:00:00] Today's date is Tuesday, July 25th, 2023. This is Riley Habyl with LGBTQ+ Cleveland Voices Oral History Project. I'm interviewing Devin

ity at Trans Wellness [Center] in Cleveland, Ohio. So thank you for meeting with me today, Devinity.

Devinity [00:00:15] Oh, thanks for having me.

Riley Habyl [00:00:18] To begin, could you please state your name and spell it for the record?

Devinity [00:00:21] Ah, Devinity, D-e-v-i-n-i-t-y.

Riley Habyl [00:00:27] So where were you born?

Devinity [00:00:29] Oh, girl! I don't tell people those kind of questions. I was born in the cabbage patch field. (both laugh)

Riley Habyl [00:00:37] You don't have to say the month or the day. (crosstalk)

Devinity [00:00:39] Oh well, well, I wasn't going to do that part, you know. But I'm originally from Georgia. You know, Sandersville, Georgia. Hines Street, to be exact.

Riley Habyl [00:00:52] When did you come to Ohio?

Devinity [00:00:53] Well. (laughs) I came to Ohio, it was '92 when I came here, but it wasn't, Oh, let's go to Cleveland and just, you know, enjoy the weather in the summer, it's lovely. I was basically thrown out of the house and pretty much was left here. (laughs) Yeah. So I made do. Made it my home.

Riley Habyl [00:01:25] Why were you thrown out?

Devinity [00:01:26] Well. My at that time parents didn't understand—neither did I, but they didn't care if I knew or not—what trans was, what LGBT was, what gay was, any of that. They just, you know, being from a minister's kid, that just wasn't allowed and they just got rid of me versus not letting that bother them and love me or therapy (laughs) or something. They just threw me away like a piece of trash.

Riley Habyl [00:02:03] When did you first begin to understand your identity and to– Or I should say, when did you first start or first become aware that being trans was a thing, that there, becoming aware of your gender identity and the–? Sorry.

Devinity [00:02:25] No, you're fine. I–.

Riley Habyl [00:02:26] When did you first become aware of that?

Devinity [00:02:28] I look at it as my understanding of the word because I still struggle with that even to this day, That is, trans is just the word that we are more accustomed to. And now we can, like, try to put some formulations to it. But I feel that I'm actually bigger and grander than that, you know. But I think I was... Hmm. I want to say like maybe eight, nine years ago, honestly, you know, because when I first came here, you know, and I met other girls and things, we didn't really have a full understanding of of what we were. We just thought we were just living. We were just women that's just doing what we had to do, you know. And so that's why I say maybe eight, eight or nine, either eight or seven years ago when I basically came and started working at the LGBT Center because they had a little more information on pronouns, on gender, on identities, and the whole bit. So that was when I was able to just dive in. I'm like, Ooh, information! Let's see. (laughs) Where do I align at? You know. So you know, it's a couple of years ago.

Riley Habyl [00:03:50] So you mentioned that you were thrown out and that you met other girls. How did you meet them or how did you find this sense of community?

Devinity [00:03:59] Hmm. Well. Oh, that was another tricky part. I did have a great aunt that lived here. It was my grandma's sister. So she let me stay with her, and I stayed upstairs. She was downstairs. And then, of course, life happened, and she passed away. And when she passed away is when life really just said, Okay, you said you grown. You ready? Let's see what you get. (laughs) And so after she passed away, I–. Right before she passed away, that was when I wanted to go to work in my authentic self. And I was walked off the property. I was, like, dismissed as if I was some felon or somebody breaking into the place or whatever. And, you know, and I worked there for a long time. I'm the general manager and had a couple stores under me and all because I want to come into work as me? You know. And, and a lot of people feel when someone say that they're trans, once again this word that we are associating with, that's supposed to mean that you lost your autonomy over your person, over you, because you need to see a therapist. (laughs) How could anybody, a doctor or a therapist or a minister or a friend or anybody, tell you what's best for you than you? That's, that's the trick that, you know, we're trying to do in trying to let people understand that just because I say I'm trans or I can say I'm married, I can say I'm a doctor, I can say whatever it is you feel you want to be, that does not mean your autonomy is tooken away or subjected because of what you're saying. You know, just have an open mind that the possibilities of what you know could be wrong or have room for errors and could be [in]doctrinated or could be changed and could be mended or whatever the case may be. Let people just be, you know, and you'll find your way a lot better.

Riley Habyl [00:06:28] Absolutely.

Devinity [00:06:28] Mm hmm.

Riley Habyl [00:06:30] Do you know around what year it was that you were fired from your job? The one that you were just speaking about?

Devinity [00:06:38] Uh, I know it was in the '90s. I want to say at least maybe 1997, '98, somewhere around there. Somewhere around there. Because '99 is when I moved to the West Side, I had my own very first owned apartment using the money, and da-da-da-da. So, yeah. It had it been around there. '97, '98. Hopefully my memory, (laughs) 'cause it's so long ago.

Riley Habyl [00:07:15] No worries. When did you first become aware of or involved with the LGBTQ community in Cleveland?

Devinity [00:07:27] When did I first get involved?

Riley Habyl [00:07:28] Yeah. Or aware of it or involved–

Devinity [00:07:32] Oh!

Riley Habyl [00:07:33] with members–

Devinity [00:07:33] Now this story, mm hmm, the LGBT [Community] Center has always been like Narnia for me. Now I don't know about anybody else. It's like in a whole 'nother world and a whole 'nother area, but it's really like, right there. You just can't see it or whatever. And so I'm going back to when it was the [Living] Room on West 28th [correction: West 29th]. It was a storefront there, and one way in, and then you'd come out on the other side of the storefront. They didn't want me in there. They didn't like any girls, anybody that was kind of feminine or exude any kind of woman-y. They want you to get away. And so I was just like, Okay. And so years later, now that the [LGBT Community] Center done moved from West 28, they moved down into Detroit Shoreway and—on 65th, 65th and Detroit—and that, you will miss that as well, too, because it looked like it was a storefront and you don't know if you should go in, you don't know if it's open, you don't know what it is. You just, you know. But this particular time, there was someone else that knew about it. And I went in them and I went in just to charge my phone because, of course, life had happened and I was, you know, on the streets and all of that and I needed to charge my phone up, and (inaudible). Now, now, if you know your history of LGBT [laughs], this was at a time of two executive directors before Phyllis Seven Harris. Right. So two executives before her. And so that executive basically just was so rude and just told me to just leave and I couldn't be in there. I couldn't come in there. So I was like, What the hey? You know, so here's some more compilations had piled up of okay, I don't LGBT is for me when they say the T is me. (laughs) You see what I said? Because each time I go to places like that that's supposed to be marked safe for me, it never was. And so I left there, ended up getting involved into prostitution, and you know, meeting a bunch of other girls that let me sleep on the floor. And it was both of us sleeping on the floor were like, you know. And then we started to travel, going to different states to try to make money and live and survive. And we made it back. And this was after that executive was gone there was another one. She was more like a butch lebian like. She was actually kind of okay. She didn't like wasn't like, rude to me, you know, she just didn't speak to me. (laughs) So I don't know. Pick your battles. Either they coming out and telling you to get out or they just just act like you ain't even in existence. And so because of that, I was able to charge my phone. I was able to go there, charge my phone. Sometimes I would fall asleep on the couch or whatever, you know, 'cause they're opened up all night, you know. And so I would leave there and get myself on to the next task of the next day. And so this one time I came, I had a friend that worked there and they was the youth coordinator, and I had just graduated from culinary school, and I just went to go see them. Da-da-da-da-da. And they go, Can you go in and cook some food for the kids? I was, what really happened, they were supposed to've went to the store and got the food and/or ordered some food and they just forgot to do it. Mmm. We still friends to this day. [laughs] And so they was like, Can you go in there and cook something and da-da-da-da-da-da, I don't care what it is, it's you know, I'm just like, Uh-huh. So I go in there and I cook the food and I guess the food just permeated the whole basement because this was when it was in the basement. And this is when I first met Phyllis [Harris]. She turned the corner, came in that kitchen, and she was like, Is that you in here making this place smell like that? [laughs] I was like, Yeah. I said, You hungry? I'll fix you a plate. She was like, What you got over there? You know. So I told her everything that I had and everything. So she did end up getting the plate. And, uh, that was very much the welcome to the Center, because I guess, you know, they always say the best thing to get into someone is through their belly. And I gave her a plate. And I went to take her a napkin and a drink, and when I got to her office was her door you could see through it, she was about to lick the plate (laughs), so I was like, That plate was good! And so I gave her, her napkin and the drink that I had. And I said, If you want some more, I could get you some more. (laughs) But she was so sweet and everything. And then shortly after that. I was hired there as a POL [Public Opinion Leader]. And then I moved up the ranks of learning all of this stuff about HIV prevention. And next thing you know, I was hired as the actual coordinator over that position. And then after that, I ended up getting another raise as the case manager of the Center. Yeah! And but also during that time. I created a program for transgender people there. So it was like, Oh my God, you know. So I always tell people, you know, good or bad, I don't care how you feel or whatever happens in life, you always remember those who paid you attention and listened to you. And even if you don't like,, value their opinion or whatever may happen later in life, you still have to remember that that person, and I tell her this all the time, I'm like you are the first executive director of the LGBT, because you remember my story I was telling you?

Riley Habyl [00:14:24] Yeah.

Devinity [00:14:25] I said, you're the first one to even actually speak to me, and not only that, hire me. Mm hmm. And, um, and then on top of that, I just learned so much because I really when I came there, the time I came to, like, to cook for the kids, I came back a whole nother time. But this time I'm here for business. I came to pick her brain. I was on the East Side picking the brains of the other executive directors of nonprofits. And then I was picking the brain of her, obviously ended up getting stuck there for seven years. I tell you this, that I think she is smart. Yeah. I'm gonna let you pick my brain. Seven years ago, I was actually. In the process of starting my own organization, and at that time I even enrolled in CSU for business management. I was in college courses and different things like that, but I wanted to do it because I'm a lived experience kind of girl. And, you know, a lot of stuff that you read in the book is fun, you know, a nice little exercise in the reading and all that. But to be a part of the community and to help the community, I don't think you can read that in the book. I think you have to help this particular especially this marginalized community just, you know, trans. I don't think a book can help you identify, help you approach, help you be anything other than a barrier. You know, for this particular group of individuals like myself. And then you have to incorporate that into the bigger picture of the. Other letters. And just try to exist because there is diversity in what we consider like street life and there's diversity in LGBT life. You know, trans people are marginalized on all bases no matter what. You know, you think. Oh, they LGBT, they find a group. You still see a trans girls on t-shirts, you still see a trans group in mowed down and nobody even care, you know, especially this LGBT. You know, I spoken to a lot of people that is LGBT and, you know, later I'm secure now and I'm fine and well. But I wanted to just ask those questions. Why you? Say you love these people in your community. And you got like a whole basement in a garage that you don't even use. Why would you not let a trans girl spend a night do or stay there to get herself together and figure out what her next plans are because of the things that have happened to her, You know? And this supposed to be your friend like this? A friend, and you don't do that. And so. The the biggest thing. Is the perception that people have of trans people. Because we only have sex work. That is the only job. That didn't actually for a resume. It didn't actually for a history. It did actually for a cover letter. It's for nothing. And you make your own hours. But you do have to risk your life is the only thing that it actually for. You see what I'm saying? So, you know, trans people have to take a big bite of this world and it's bullshit, you know, to have to just suck it up and just do great yourself and have sex. And you're not even sure on what that is. That's let's be clear on that part. You're thrown out. And you starting to see other people. And that's the only way to make money. Because each time you try to go somewhere to get a job, they don't want to hire you over gadgetry of, Oh, my God, your mouth. Oh, my God, No, Get away from me. Oh, my God. And then they want to say he and all these other different things, and you know, just make you uncomfortable. Just make you just feel like you're not valid or you're not wanted. And then on top of that, you don't have nobody's house that you can go and just couch surf, you know, because I hear a lot of the gay men like, oh my God, I'm just couch surfing and I'm gonna be at this couch tomorrow. And I'm sitting here like, Child, I wish I had a couch to surf on. You know. I'm sleeping outside. Is you crazy? I'm sleeping in the hotel room that the trick had paid for, and he had to go back to his wife. So I'm telling the hotel, I need late checkout. (laughs) Just so you could get some sleep. And these people just not paying attention to their own community and everything and the intricate things that happens. They just thinking that, oh, we're gay, we're queer, we're fine. Everything is just rainbows and unicorns. So, you know, let me get back on track 'cause you know, I'm sure some more questions. I just get so passionate, you know.

Riley Habyl [00:20:04] Related to what you just said–.

Devinity [00:20:05] Mm hmm.

Riley Habyl [00:20:06] When you first got involved with the [LGBT Community] Center, were there any trans-specific programs or resources geared towards that sense of multiple marginalization, both outside of and within the community?

Devinity [00:20:18] No. There was nothing at that LGBT Center related to trans, regarding trans, working, seeing. I was like, when I go in there, I didn't see another trans person. I didn't see no one else that looked like me. You know. And even when I was hired, I wasn't even hired because I was trans. I wasn't hired because there was a need for trans. I was hired for the stigma. All trans people have HIV. Come to find out, I don't. Come to find out I ain't never have it and never had an STD or nothing. So that kind of baffled a lot of the LGBT people. But also it was my catapult (laughs) because that was when I got into Ending the AIDS Epidemic campaign and I ended up being the spokesperson for it because, in their knowledge, because I'm going to say this, there is other trans people, men and women, that do not have HIV, do not have STDs, sex worker or not. That is just a stigma that people have or the perception of trans people. So what–. I'm the spokesperson for that and I go around and I was just taking pictures and just lettin' people know about Truvada and Descovey and I had an influence in, on the injection that is now Cabenuva. It was just, oh my God. And then to hear people saying, Oh my God, I saw you on a bus, you on a billboard, I saw you on this. I was just like, Oh my God! So that was like my, my catapult. Because when that happened, everything else started to happen right after. So, yeah.

Riley Habyl [00:22:21] Do you know if the lack of trans-specific resources, programs, and anything related to the trans community at the [LGBT Community] Center was to do with a lack of–? I mean, I would assume that it wasn't because there wasn't a need; there was a clear need for it. Was it resistance from upper management or from the LGB community?

Devinity [00:22:42] Well, it's all of the above because when I pitched the idea, they said that they don't feel like it is a need. Why should they have it? What is the purpose of it? And I'm sitting here like, you got a "T" outside on this big ol' sign, and you sayin' what is the need? You know, I was kind of taken aback, but I also was prepared that this is the world. You know, you're going to get a lot of no's before you get a get a yes. Even if it pertains to something that could potentially save somebody's life. You know, someone would still say no. And of course, that's not my organization. I can't come up in there and tell them how to run their organization. That's you do what you what do. But I just was like, okay, to not see any kind of trans resources or representatives or anything of that nature, I just knew to just come in here, just charge my phone, maybe fall asleep if need be, and just be on my way. But when I was hired as the, uh, not the POL [Public Opinion Leader], because that wasn't enough like power or enough like, say, but when I was hired as the HIV prevention coordinator, that gave me what I needed. And so that was when I was like almost a year into that position. That's when I was like, you know what? Let we not forget what I was what I came up in here for. You know. This is Q. But, you know, what is there for trans people? Why am I just just giving 'em HIV tests and, you know, telling 'em what society's already perceiving them to be? So I pitched the idea of the Trans Wellness program there that has all of that, a community, of belonging, where you can just come there and just, you know, get the resources and just feel like you belong somewhere. You see somebody else that looks like you. You know. And also get a meal, which I had to hustle that up too 'cause you know, because also pitching that idea, they didn't feel like it was a need. Okay? I know it's a need because I've lived it. I'm still living it. So I'm just like, they don't see? Like, what do I got to do, jump in the middle of the road or jump on their car? Like, what, for them to see. And so I was like, I was like about three or four days pitching this idea to the [LGBT Community] Center. And I was like, Just give me a chance to show you that there is a need. And so Phyllis says, Well, we are a nonprofit. We don't have any money to pay you. Everything is grant funded or donation. And I was like, I am already getting paid for HIV prevention through the AIDS Funding Collaborative. That is enough. And please make sure I have enough to not become a prostitute while I work here. And she looked at me and that's when she, I felt like she kind of got it a little bit. And she said, I can do that. And so it wasn't like the accurate pay I should have been getting, but it was just enough to–. I was still happy. I didn't care. I just know that I didn't have to be on that hoe stroll or on somebody's line trying to find somebody to have sex with so I can put food on the table, clothes on my back and the whole bit. And so she did that, and I created the program and then I hustled my butt off to make sure that that was going to show not just her, but the community itself, that it is a need for this trans wellness program. And so I got with the youth coordinator, I got with the SAGE coordinator, and that's how I was able to get food to actually see the trans people. Because a lot of times you come in, some of them are from off the streets, they come in off of drugs, they come in off their high, and they're hungry, like your body is finally telling you, Okay, it's been seven days. You ain't drunk nothing, you ain't ate nothing. Okay, it's time to do something. And so they just ravage and just eat something. And so. I mean, some of the other people that [are] at the [LGBT Community] Center—I don't say all, that's why I said some—have some really good hearts. This one gave a couple of those particular individuals canned goods and (laughs), you know, made them a goodie little bag. And then they went outside to go move their car and they saw the bag, you know, in the garbage by the garbage can, and they was just like so tooken back like, I gave this person all this stuff and da-da-da-da-da. I just don't understand why they would just throw it in the trash. And so I was like, let me see what this bag. So I looked in it. I said, What is someone that is homeless—key word, homeless—is gonna do with some ravioli beans and some ravioli pizzas, and what are they gonna do with it? First of all, they don't have a can opener. Secondly, they don't have a stove or oven or microwave. They don't have a bowl (laughs), a fork or spoon. I said, Now, please don't take offense to this. This is why this bag was found in the garbage down the street, because if they were spiteful or vindictive, they would have just, just threw it at you or left it right there where you was at. And so they took it down the street, didn't think you was gonna come down here to see it. You know. But let's not dwell on that. Let me just show you and whoever else at the Center that is interested on what to do when these situations arise. And so I'm talking about I had a couple employees, and I'm just in that kitchen, I'm just showin' 'em. You know, someone comes in here and they're high or coming off that high or whatever. That's the only reason why they came here. They didn't come here because they need to use the computer. They didn't come here because they need to get a HIV test or whatever. They didn't come here to join any kind of programs or whatever. They came here because, like I said, that marquee outside says that I can come in here. Hopefully if I come in here, y'all got some food. I've seen the kitchen. They should have something. You know, don't care what it is. I just know you should have something. And so when you're comin' off these drugs, that something can actually save their life. You know, seven days, can you imagine seven days without eating or drinking anything? So that something can actually last to get to something else. And so they used to order like pantrylike stuff for some of the staff. And then of course, the kids get everything. (laughs) And so I was like, Okay, well, what don't we just order a couple of stuff so that the staff can have chips and crackers and cookies and different things like that. And get the little pouch juices 'cause those are good. And so, the coordinator that was in charge of that, I was like, just order a couple of 'em and we can put it right here and just put it for the staff. Child, that thing turned into a pantry for outreach. (laughs) And it was designated, so when people come in, they could come in there and get some quick food that they could just open it, eat, throw the container away versus having to getting the can and and all these different things. And so that has been going on since. The basement into the new [LGBT Community] Center, I don't, you know, it's been over a little almost, a little over 30 days. So I don't know what's going on now. But when I left there, that was still going on. People could come in there and just actually be a community. Do you see what I'm saying? Even though it was not–. It didn't seem like it was geared for that to happen. You know. Yeah. What's the next questions? (laughs)

Riley Habyl [00:32:13] I have one more question (crosstalk) about the LGBT Center.

Devinity [00:32:14] Oh, okay. Oh, I can answer whatever you want.

Riley Habyl [00:32:20] So, it was about, you say it was in the mid-2010s that you were able to get Trans Wellness off the ground? After that program was launched, would you say that there– Or how would you describe the reception of not just [LGBT Community] Center staff but Center participants towards the trans wellness program or towards the idea of actually having programs that represented, like you said, the T in the LGBT as part of the Center?

Devinity [00:32:55] Well, it was–. It was challenging even up until the day I left out of there. It was like the community that is LGBT—key word, LGBT, now they're upset that there's other letters now, but let's not forget the T. (laughs) It's like they act as if they don't understand or they are oblivious or they're not affected, or it don't pertain to me so it's not my issue, it's not my concern, it's not my whatever. And so me running around, of course, the supervisors and the powers that be just say, Here, just do you. So you're like, people gotta eat, people want to get their name changed, people want somewhere to live, people want a shelter, and people want like help. And so they just, like, ignore and say you're the coordinator. So I'm like, Okay, so I'm the coordinator and I'm sitting here running HIV prevention, still doing my trainings and tests and making sure that we have people at the [LGBT Community] Center doing tests, making sure I'm keeping up with the cities and counties and the CDC and everybody else. And then I'm also over here making sure that the trans people have everything that they need. So I've always told people, you know, a lot of people work at places that you wore several hats. I said, I did more than several hats. I actually provided. You know, to a point where I had to forget who I was to make sure that the people got the help that they need. I had to learn how to maintain the job, but also keep up with the community. You know, I didn't want the community to feel like I've changed. I'm bougie, Oh, I got a job, I got money, and da-da-da-da-da. And I'm sitting here like, Child, it ain't no money, first of all. I didn't even get full-time pay until last December. Mm hmm. And that came from a grant that I had ended up getting and so that's why I'm like, I'm telling people, I'm like, Don't think that it's all glitz and glamor. I'm only there to make sure you have somewhere to be and somewhere to just be catty or just act like you're better than somebody. You know. I'm making sure you're able to do that. (laughs) You know. And so when, 'cause when I did my outreaches and things like that, I would meet people out on the streets, out at the bars, and a lot of times I'm the only one from the LGBT Center that's out taking care of people, looking out for people's wellbeing and actually, like, loving on people. And then I had got a call that it was this trans girl was sexually assaulted and raped, and she was up at Metro and this was about maybe three, four in the morning. And I go, I didn't care. I needed to get a couple more hours of sleep to get up for work or whatever. I went because I remember when I was sexually assaulted and pistol-whipped and left in a field from being shot at, the whole bit. And I had to deal with that by myself. So I know. So this is why I just rushed out the house and I set up up there at Metro with this lady for at least a good five hours until it was, I had to say, okay, I had to go. But I had, only reason why I had to go is because I had to get to the LGBT Center because there was a meeting that day. All staff. Right. And so I never looked at anything that I'd done at the Center personally. I looked at it as I'm able to provide the care and resources and the love that this community so need, so deserve. And I will worry about me later. That's how I fueled myself to even stay there. That's how fueled myself to even go with the adversities that I even went through by even working there. And so I'm excited. I'm happy that I went to Metro and I spent this time with this lady and I wanted to tell everybody this. And so they pass it around at the meeting, and, Oh, what you do today? What was the best thing about, a highlight of your day? Or, and then there was a point they was stuck on rose and thorns. (laughs) So I'm just like, okay, so I'm like, okay, now I got something to interject in. I could use this for the rose. I could use this for the thorn. So I'm going in about it, and once again, the next day, I'm being wrote up in the executive office to be reprimanded [laughs], yeah, for putting the Center in jeopardy for going up to the Metro, yeah, at that time of day. That was like the second one at this time. Now I've had quite a few. That's the crazy part. You know, the other one, like I told you, it was the birth certificate that I purchased of my own money. And I had to sit there and tell them. I'm like, So you mean to tell me if I work here, you also have to tell me how to spend my money? The lack of it that you're giving me? So when I cashed my check and I want to throw it out here in the middle of the street, I'm going to get written up? And so I've come to find out that the supervisor had told the executive that I had... This is going to baffle you. And I always tell people this why I kept every last one of my write ups because it's far-fetched. You won't believe me unless you read it. She told the executive that I took the money and put it in the expense account to get the money back for me. So you mean to tell me that you literally is supposed to be paying for people's birth certificates, which is only $25, and you want to tell the executive that I put $25 in an expense account to get the money back? And the whole thing about it, I didn't know what expense account was. I'm the one that's always kept in the dark. I'm the last one to learn or know something. And they quick to say, Oh, you don't check your e-mails. You don't do this. And I'm sitting here looking at them like, I'm still learning how to do that, dodo! So I had to learn to just let them say what they want to say. Let them taunt me or let them do whatever it is they felt that they, felt that that was good for them to say or do, just so I could help the community. Mm hmm. Don't take nothing personal. Don't react to nothing and don't attach to nothing. Mm hmm. That's how I spent my seven years at the LGBT Center.

Riley Habyl [00:41:35] That's unbelievable.

Devinity [00:41:36] Exactly. And so. And it's more.

Riley Hab