John Nosek and Leon Stevens Interview, 15 August 2023

Abstract

John Nosek (b. 1949) and Leon Stevens (b. 1948) are native Clevelanders who grew up on the east side. They discuss the Cleveland gay community in the 1970s and '80s, including managing the Gay Educational and Awareness Resource (GEAR) Foundation's High Gear newspaper in its early years and their gay activism in the mid- to late 1970s. Nosek and Stevens detail the early history of GEAR, its Gay Hotline, and its long struggle to establish what eventually became the LGBT Community Center of Greater Cleveland. The interview explores uneasy interactions and divisions that slowed the realization of a unified LGBTQ+ community as well as the characteristics of various geographical concentrations of LGBTQ+ residency in the Cleveland area. They discuss the role of gay men in historic preservation and urban gentrification, notably in Ohio City, where Nosek and Stevens designed an official neighborhood flag in 1983.

Interviewee

Nosek, John (interviewee); Stevens, Leon (interviewee)

Interviewer

Habyl, Riley (interviewer)

Project

LGBTQ+ Cleveland

Date

8-15-2023

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

125 minutes

Recommended Citation

"John Nosek and Leon Stevens Interview, 15 August 2023" (2023). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 701009.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/1265

Transcript

Riley Habyl [00:00:03] All right. Today's date is Tuesday, August 15th, 2023. This is Riley Habyl with the LGBTQ+ Cleveland Voices Oral History Collection. I'm interviewing John Nosek and Leon Stevens at their home in Cleveland's Ohio City neighborhood. So, John and Leon, thank you for speaking with me today.

John Nosek [00:00:20] We're happy you're here and willing to talk to us.

Riley Habyl [00:00:23] Thank you. To begin, could you both state your names and spell them for the record?

John Nosek [00:00:29] Oh. Go ahead, Leon.

Leon Stevens [00:00:30] First name, L-e-o-n. Last name S-t-e-v-e-n-s, Stevens.

John Nosek [00:00:40] And I'm John Nosek. Last name spelled N-o-s-e-k.

Riley Habyl [00:00:45] Thank you. So, where and when were you both born?

John Nosek [00:00:50] Well, John speaking. I was born at Huron Road Hospital—which is now demolished—and lived up until age five at East 79th and Superior. And at age five, my family moved me and my sister to Garfield Heights, where I went to elementary school, middle school, and high school. And Leon?

Leon Stevens [00:01:25] I was born in St. Luke's Hospital, now demolished. And I grew up on East 75th Street, which is actually a continuation of Fleet Avenue—which is actually now called Slavic Village. And there you have it.

Riley Habyl [00:01:46] Thank you. Could you tell me a bit about your educational backgrounds? Where and when you went to school?

Leon Stevens [00:01:52] Yes, I have a master's degree in library science, and—with a distribution for law librarianship. And I have a master's degree in German language and literature.

John Nosek [00:02:08] From?

Leon Stevens [00:02:09] Case Western Reserve [University].

Riley Habyl [00:02:11] What years did you attend Case Western?

Leon Stevens [00:02:18] (Laughs) Okay, John. Answer that question!

Riley Habyl [00:02:19] No worries.

John Nosek [00:02:21] I'm really not sure. I would imagine that it was late sixties through early seventies. I went to Cleveland State University—and am a proud alumnus, I might add. And I got my bachelor's degree from Cleveland State University in 1972 after being a co-op student—which is the way that I paid my way through college—and got my master's degree in 1978. And that in itself is a story. I had done all the coursework between '72 and '74, but because I got involved in gay activism, I let that go. And then I found out that there was a statute of limitations on when you might be able to get your master's degree. So I opted not for the test but for the written examination, and I passed. So I got that in '78.

Riley Habyl [00:03:21] Fantastic. Could you tell me a bit about your current or previous occupations?

Leon Stevens [00:03:27] I've been a law librarian for about 25 years with Walter and Haverfield. It's a law firm in Erieview Tower now. And yeah, that's my—pretty much my work experience. And I'm retired now.

John Nosek [00:03:47] I worked for the Cuyahoga County Mental Health Board for 19 years and basically moved up in position there. And after 19 years there, I moved to Positive Education Program, also known as PAP. And I was their government affairs director for 11 years, basically lobbying people and making sure rules and regulations for mental health organizations were not too onerous.

Riley Habyl [00:04:19] So how long have you been living in Cleveland?

John Nosek [00:04:22] Well, I've lived in Cleveland all my life.

Leon Stevens [00:04:24] Me too.

John Nosek [00:04:25] Yeah. So both of us are native Clevelanders. My parents were Polish immigrants, so—. My mother, may she rest in peace, was very smart. We only spoke Polish at home up until age five. But then she got my prospective kindergarten teacher to tutor me on the side, and that's how I learned English. And that was an interesting experience.

Riley Habyl [00:04:58] At what point in your lives did you first come to an understanding or awareness of your sexual identity?

Leon Stevens [00:05:04] (phone alarm dings) About five years old, I would say.

John Nosek [00:05:07] It was third grade for me. I had a crush on a young boy whose name I won't mention because he's probably not gay. But that's when I first realized that I preferred boys to girls in that manner.

Riley Habyl [00:05:23] When did you first become aware that there were other people that shared your sexual orientation, or that there were other gay people in the world?

John Nosek [00:05:34] I guess for me, it was at work. And in fact, it ties in to how Leon and I met each other. There were a couple of gay guys who worked where I worked. And again, I won't mention their names, but one of them actually introduced me to Leon. We were living in the same apartment building at the time, the Crestview on top of Little Italy there in—. Oh, on Overlook Road. And he said, "Oh, John, you know, are you aware that there is a single man living in your building at the Crestview?" And I said, "No. We've never crossed paths." And so, then he introduced Leon and I to each other.

Riley Habyl [00:06:17] What year was that around?

John Nosek [00:06:19] Oh, my God. I guess it was 1974.

Leon Stevens [00:06:23] I think so.

Riley Habyl [00:06:25] How would you describe the LGBT community in Cleveland in the 1970s?

John Nosek [00:06:31] Oof! Very active. It was like the golden age of—well, not only in Cleveland, but probably in the country. It was pre-AIDS. Cleveland, unlike other cities, was—. There was not a heavy pattern of persecution here. We don't know if it's because the bars were paying off the police or whether it was state law. Which you might recall, in 1974, there was a consensual sexual act that allowed 16 years old people and older to basically be free. And so—. I don't know. The 1970s are just so multi layered that we'd have to pick a particular topic within that.

Riley Habyl [00:07:20] Could you tell me a bit about some of the social spaces, like—. Where were some of the primary spaces that people in the LGBT community in the seventies met and organized out of?

Leon Stevens [00:07:32] Well. Ha. First I would say in bars, of course. We had at least 20 bars in Cleveland at one time—gay bars.

John Nosek [00:07:41] And lesbian bars.

Leon Stevens [00:07:43] Yeah, yeah. And so there was that. I first joined the Gay Activist Alliance at Case [Western Reserve University]. And it was a small group of maybe 12 people at most, or 20 people. And so I would say that's it.

John Nosek [00:08:15] Well, there was more. I mean—. If I may put in a shameless plug for us, Leon and I wrote three articles for the Encyclopedia of Cleveland History. One was on the GEAR Foundation, Gay Education and Awareness Resources [https://case.edu/ech/articles/g/gear-gay-education-awareness-and-resources-foundation].

Leon Stevens [00:08:31] (crosstalk) Oh, yeah, yeah. I forgot that.

John Nosek [00:08:31] High Gear [https://case.edu/ech/articles/h/high-gear], the newspaper that in its early stages, Leon and I managed. And the third article was on the Gay Community 1970s. And referring to the question that's on the table now, the Gay Community 1970s article [https://case.edu/ech/articles/g/gay-community-1970s] lists everything that was there. There were religion—. There were at least three gay religious organizations. There were—. A restaurant, Gypsy's Restaurant [2418 St. Clair Ave.] was there. There were movie houses and baths. And then, of course, there were the organizations I just mentioned, GEAR. And what else, Leon?

Leon Stevens [00:09:14] Radi—

John Nosek [00:09:15] Did I mention radio? John Vogel had a— (crosstalk)

Leon Stevens [00:09:18] Uh, yeah, you—

John Nosek [00:09:18] [GayWaves] On WRUW [91.1 FM]. So, there was a lot happening in the seventies in terms of where people could go. And things were pretty visible and out. The first pushback came when Anita Bryant launched her anti-gay rage. Although, in Cleveland we didn't seem to be really that affected by it. But I don't want to give you the impression that people were out and proud. That was not true. Basically, in the 1970s, most gay men and lesbians were closeted. I mean, there was fear of losing your job and the like. And Leon and I, from when we first met, decided that we would be out because we knew it was important that people knew your names. But if people wanted to participate and not use their real names to write articles for High Gear, we were open to that because we understood that coming out is a personal thing.

Leon Stevens [00:10:18] And the irony is, in High Gear we are always trying—. We were always trying to show faces of gay people. So we printed the pictures of these people—after asking permission. But the strange thing about it was they didn't want us to put their names. So—

Riley Habyl [00:10:42] Even with—? (crosstalk)

John Nosek [00:10:44] In other words, the image was okay but not the names. (crosstalk)

Leon Stevens [00:10:45] Yes. So they can say, "Oh, no. He looks like me, but that's not me."

John Nosek [00:10:50] That's true.

Leon Stevens [00:10:51] And that's an interesting phenomenon.

John Nosek [00:10:57] Yeah. We can't underestimate the closeted-ness in Cleveland in the seventies. But that didn't—. People—. It didn't prevent people from going out and having a good time, because the bars were packed. In fact, it was said by some that in the 1970s—between New York and Chicago—Cleveland was the hottest place to be for the lesbian and gay community at that time. And it's true, there was a lot happening. The bars were packed. You have to remember at that time, pre-AIDS, gay men didn't have to worry—. Well, we had to worry about syphilis and gonorrhea. But as far as AIDS, not—. The interesting thing about the 1970s, though, in terms of organization is that when we were—. Primarily our gay activism was from 1974 to '78, during that four years. You can only be an intense activist for a shorter period of time. And we tried to work with lesbians at that time, but one must remember that's when feminism was occurring. And feminism very much affected us. We understood the concepts between sexism and oppression. And we wanted to work with lesbians, but they didn't want to work with us. They were working with the feminists of that time. In fact, there's a newspaper called What She Wants that was—where both lesbians and feminists were involved. But then, Leon, tell—

Leon Stevens [00:12:32] Well— (crosstalk)

John Nosek [00:12:32] —our listeners what happened, and how the lesbians did come around. Not during our time, but—

Leon Stevens [00:12:40] Well, the National Organization of Women [National Organization for Women] felt, at one point, that lesbians are trying to characterize all women as potentially lesbian. And so, now—

John Nosek [00:12:58] (crosstalk) Rita Mae Brown.

Leon Stevens [00:12:59] So, finally—

John Nosek [00:13:00] Just a reminder.

Leon Stevens [00:13:01] Rita Mae Brown, the—

John Nosek [00:13:05] Top national lesbian.

Leon Stevens [00:13:06] Top national lesbian, quit NOW [National Organization for Women]. And once that happened, there was a cascade where lesbians were joint—identifying with gay people more than with just women's—

John Nosek [00:13:25] Women in general.

Leon Stevens [00:13:27] —organizations. Yeah. So—

John Nosek [00:13:28] And we were grateful for that. But that was, of course, past our time, because it was around 1980, I think. Or late seventies.

Leon Stevens [00:13:35] Yeah.

John Nosek [00:13:36] —when that happened, so. But what was interesting is we made a point of having as many articles as we could about lesbians, especially news items that would be of interest to our lesbian sisters. And then we did have straight female friends who helped with the paper. But if they ever wrote an article, they would use their real name. So, kudos to them. Those were early allies. (laughs) And we would have them write articles about more generic things. Not like, for instance, when Patti Smith's—. I don't know if you know her, but she was a rock goddess, if you will, of the 1970s. And we put her on the front page of one of our issues because Robert Mapplethorpe, the famous artist, took that photo. And so then we had our friend—I can mention her now, Donna Minkler, who wrote the article, the review of the article. So we did try to incorporate women as much as we could, but they were not lesbians. And although we did, as I say, highlight lesbian news and features written by others outside of Cleveland. By the way, Leon and I first—. When we first met, you know, we hit it off. We're both of Polish ancestry, and something I would recommend for all couples in general—not just gay and lesbian ones—but you find things that you want to work on together. And he and I had been involved in political activism outside the gay movement. Because you have to remember, the Vietnam War was raging at that time. And then, of course, the Civil Rights movement and the like. So we had had experience in marching, and protesting, and being involved. And so, it just seemed natural for us to find out what was happening in the gay community. And that's when we met Art MacDonald and his partner, Michael Madigan, who basically told us what was happening. We said, "Well, we're in with you." And this was just when GEAR was being formally incorporated. And that's how we got involved.

Riley Habyl [00:15:45] Around what year was it that you first met Art [MacDonald]?

John Nosek [00:15:48] It was either—. Yeah, I tried to remember that. It was either late 1974 or early '75. It couldn't have been later than January because we met Art [MacDonald] and Michael Madigan in March of 1975.

Leon Stevens [00:16:03] Oh, you know, it might be on that— (indicating to copy of High Gear)

John Nosek [00:16:06] Oh, so—. They can go to the articles for the details. (laughs)

Leon Stevens [00:16:09] Okay.

Riley Habyl [00:16:10] No worries. How did you first become involved with GEAR? Or, active with GEAR, I should say.

John Nosek [00:16:18] Okay. It was—. Like I said, March 1975 we met Art [MacDonald] and Mike [Madigan]. Art [MacDonald] was kind of like a one-man gay rights guy. He had—. He and his partner Michael Madigan moved from Chicago to Cleveland. And he was going to Cleveland State University and revived—although what he was reviving, I'm not sure at the time—a group, a student gay group that developed into GEAR. And this is an interesting story. This is not in the articles on the Encyclopedia of Cleveland History because I only learned about it recently thanks to Tom Suddes of The Plain Dealer, who wrote an article. He's always been an ally of the LGBT community. He wrote an article about how in the early seventies—. I mean, now we're talking like '72, '73. There was a group in Cincinnati that tried to incorporate itself as a private not-for-profit. I can't remember the name of the group now, but the attorney general refused to incorporate them. And this caused the state attorney general—. This caused an uproar in the state of Ohio because there were those who were saying, "Well, what about freedom of speech and freedom of association?" And, "Oh, no, no, these are gay people. Blah-blah-blah." So he basically put the kibosh on that group's not-for-profit incorporation. And there was so much media about it that when GEAR—. By the way, this is important. This is not in the articles. GEAR was incorporated as a foundation to get around this private not-for-profit repeal of the state attorney general for the Cincinnati group. (sound of rustling paper as Stevens refers to old newspapers here and periodically for the next several minutes) So that's—. And then they used their own funds basically. Art MacDonald's partner Michael Madigan was a lawyer, and he said, "Here, I'm going to fund this for a while." And there's a picture of him right there. (indicates to copy of High Gear, laughs)

Leon Stevens [00:18:25] 1975! (John laughs) And—. Yeah.

John Nosek [00:18:34] He—. So even though Art MacDonald was out doing all of the activism, it was really his partner who was kind of doing the initial funding. (loud sound of paper rustling; this happens periodically over the next few minutes as Leon refers to old newspapers) So that's a little bit of extra history for those interested.

Riley Habyl [00:18:48] Do you remember the name of the group in Cincinnati?

John Nosek [00:18:51] I wish I could. I've tried to look up that article, and I can't find the article. I even had the Cleveland Public—. No, no. It was—. Western Reserve Historical Society was helping me try to find the article, and we can't. But maybe you have better research skills. So, it's Thomas Suddes. He's the Plain Dealer edi—. He's on the editorial board.

Leon Stevens [00:19:17] You should spell that out.

John Nosek [00:19:21] S-u-d-d-e-s, Thomas. And it would have been within the last year. It was in the Plain Dealer. It was an article. But there was another time he mentioned this group, which is not the one that you're looking for. You're looking for the one that shows the entire history of how the state of Ohio tried to stop an LGBT group from incorporating. So when we met Mike [Madigan] and Art [MacDonald]—. Leon, if you remember—. They made it clear to us that GEAR's primary focus was eventually to establish an LGBT Center, but that they were hoping that they could bring the newspaper, High Gear, up to a point to where the profits would be able—not to support the Center in total, because obviously that wouldn't have been enough money—but enough money to support the Gay Hotline and the rental cost for what was then activities that were occurring under the GEAR umbrella. So paying the rent for that. So that was really—. And so, I guess in a way it was seed money for the [Community] Center. And that continued, as we all know, until 1982 when the paper went out of business. And then I think a few years later, GEAR then dissolved itself into the Cleveland LGBT Center. So I'm not sure of the date, but you can check that in the articles. I think we did include that. You want—. Anything you want to add, Leon, about that period?

Leon Stevens [00:20:58] Not really. I don't think so. That was pretty summary, so.

Riley Habyl [00:21:06] What were some of GEAR's—. Er—. When you first joined GEAR, what were some of the early programs or services that it offered?

John Nosek [00:21:14] Well, aside from the newspaper? Oh, they had discussion groups. They had—. And those groups were–one was for elders, one was for teenagers, another one was for couples. The Gay Hotline was probably the most important thing because there you could call anyone anonymously. And by the way, it's important to mention that both GEAR and High Gear were all-volunteer organizations. So even the people who worked on the [Gay] Hotline, they were volunteers. We may have paid for the expenses of the rent and the, you know, the telephone charges and the like, but—. We had set it up so that people could actually answer the phone from their homes during their volunteer shifts. And this then would give people entree to, you know, whatever it was that they were calling about. You want a discussion group? Do you want information about the bar scene? Do you want—. "Where can I go to meet other gay people of my age?" That kind of thing. So, and of course, the—. I guess the influence of feminism was really more on Leon and me, because when we did High Gear newspaper we set out—. And this caused a lot of arguments, let me tell you. You think the LGBT community might be a little fractured now? It's always been that way. We felt very strongly that in High Gear there should be no idealization of sex. You know, we didn't want perfect bodies. And, you know, this was not a porn or a—. This was our goal, this was not a porn place. We did allow—

Leon Stevens [00:23:00] We wanted a newspaper that somebody could take home to their parents and—

John Nosek [00:23:05] Right. Although some of the content was pretty shocking! (laughs)

Leon Stevens [00:23:09] Well, yeah. Yeah. Well, we were straightforward but—

John Nosek [00:23:12] But not to look at, you'd have to read. (laughs) So I think the issue for us was our advertisers. Because, you know, without all of the bars and the organizations that we mentioned earlier we wouldn't have a newspaper, or a Gay Hotline, or seed money for a gay Center. So that's what—

Leon Stevens [00:23:36] Advertisers always wanted to have hot, hot bodybuilder—

John Nosek [00:23:39] Right.

Leon Stevens [00:23:41] Half of them completely naked.

John Nosek [00:23:45] Right.

Leon Stevens [00:23:45] And so, it was just a struggle. (crosstalk)

John Nosek [00:23:48] Constant battle to say, "No, this is a newspaper that we want to—." And we did. I mean, there were many [places]— We distributed our newspaper in many straight establishments that didn't mind, you know?

Leon Stevens [00:24:00] Coventry Books and—

John Nosek [00:24:02] Record Revolution.

Leon Stevens [00:24:03] Yeah.

John Nosek [00:24:04] The Little Tap. At any business. Back in that day there was no internet, so the information you could get was from the printed press. And so, if they had newspapers of others, then we would always go in and say, "Well, would you mind adding ours?" So in a way, that was important. And then of course, we also didn't—. We were against age discrimination, as well as gender discrimination. I think what listeners might find interesting, though, is that attitudes toward bisexuality and trans [transgender] people were very different in the 1970s than they are today. We thought bisexuals were just gay people—gay and lesbian people who wouldn't admit that they were— (crosstalk)

Leon Stevens [00:24:51] Didn't wanna come out completely, so.

John Nosek [00:24:53] Yeah. And that was unfair. We did have an article on bisexuality because we knew that was relevant, even though we—. People thought what I just said. And then—. Oh, I lost my train of thought. Help me.

Leon Stevens [00:25:11] Well, what I would say about it is—. Well, we have already mentioned the division between lesbians not identifying with the gay—anything gay. And what I would say is—. Well, there are a lot of—. You had, for example, a gay Jewish group [Chevrei Tikvah] and then a gay Catholic group [Dignity], and then we had a gay church. I forgot what the name of it was.

John Nosek [00:25:50] Metropolitan Community Church [MCC]. (crosstalk)

Leon Stevens [00:25:51] Yeah, Metropolitan Community Church, MCC. And so, it's hard to lump every—everything together. What I would say about it though is—. And the reason we wanted to have a gay, LGBT Center—at that time you just said gay—is because people who were trying to get together were always being kicked out of places. So we were kicked out of—

John Nosek [00:26:24] St. John's Episcopal.

Leon Stevens [00:26:24] St. John's Episcopal Church here once they found out we were assembling the newspaper there. And then Hillel, on Case [Western Reserve University] campus, kicked out the Jewish gays. And there was another Catholic center, I can't remember the name of it.

John Nosek [00:26:41] Dignity.

Leon Stevens [00:26:46] But the center was called something else. It was a Catholic building. And so they kicked the gay group Dignity out of that. And then we were always just like—

John Nosek [00:27:02] Trying to find a space.

Leon Stevens [00:27:03] Trying to find a space where people could—gay people could get together. And so it was in people's private houses. But, you know, if you have a large group, it couldn't be there. And so, there was always this migration of people trying to get together and getting kicked out of places.

John Nosek [00:27:27] I just retrieved my original thought talking about attitudes toward trans [transgender] and bi [bisexual] people. We even had arguments among the staff about drag queens because we felt—. Again, because of the influence of feminism on our political thought at that time. Those of us who were politically active thought that drag queens were caricatures of women and that, you know, to give them voice is kind of like doing the caricature—continuing the caricature. So I must say I am shocked at how popular drag queens are today. I mean, they were—. They've always been a part of the gay male subculture, and lesbians too. You know, there are drag kings. And so—

Leon Stevens [00:28:18] Not many though.

John Nosek [00:28:20] (laughs) Well, it's easier to be a drag king than a drag queen. Anyway, so then when it came to actual trans [transgender] people, that wasn't even on our radar. You know, I mean, we—. The—. I mean, yes, we knew about Renée Richards, but it was like—. During the time that we were active in the seventies, did we ever even meet a transsexual person?

Leon Stevens [00:28:42] I don't think so. Or, if we did, we didn't know it.

John Nosek [00:28:44] Right. Exactly. So it was just—. I think it was ignorance on our part back then, which I'm ashamed to say. (crosstalk)

Leon Stevens [00:28:55] It was society in general, I would say. That was—

John Nosek [00:28:57] Right. But needless to say, as time went on and we got more educated—. We understand now that the B [bisexual] and the T [transgender] in LGBT are certainly as important, and warranted respect. And even going beyond that, that every person only has one life so let them live it as they like.

Riley Habyl [00:29:17] (unintelligible, crosstalk) Oh, sorry.

Leon Stevens [00:29:19] Well, what—. Can you remember the Kent State professor?

John Nosek [00:29:25] Dolores Noll.

Leon Stevens [00:29:26] Dolores Noll said, "What drag queens need is women's liberation."

John Nosek [00:29:36] (laughs) I remember her saying that.

Leon Stevens [00:29:39] And—

John Nosek [00:29:41] She was very important, by the way, in the Kent Gay Liberation Front. I think she— (crosstalk)

Leon Stevens [00:29:46] Oh, yeah.

John Nosek [00:29:46] —actually organized it.

Leon Stevens [00:29:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah. She was—. I forgot what she was a professor of, but maybe I can find—. Maybe I can find the article here. (Leon peruses through copies of High Gear) Let's see. Not that. Not that.

John Nosek [00:30:03] Leon, you'll be looking a while. It might not even be in those bags. Let's move on.

Leon Stevens [00:30:07] Yeah, let's move on.

Riley Habyl [00:30:10] No worries. So you mentioned that you were heavily influenced by lesbian feminist communities in the seventies.

John Nosek [00:30:15] (crosstalk) No, by feminist philosophy. Feminism, yes.

Riley Habyl [00:30:20] How did you—. I guess, how did you learn about feminism? And in what capacity, or in what spaces? If lesbians and gays weren't, you know, unified in the seventies, how— (crosstalk)

John Nosek [00:30:33] We read about it.

Riley Habyl [00:30:33] —how were you influenced?

John Nosek [00:30:34] We read about it, and it made sense.

Leon Stevens [00:30:36] Yeah. I would say my mother. (laughs)

John Nosek [00:30:38] Yeah. Your mother was a feminist, too.

Leon Stevens [00:30:41] Oh, yeah.

John Nosek [00:30:42] You know, I mean—. It was clear that women should have equal rights, that they should have a right to control their own bodies. In fact, I often have educated younger gay people who don't understand the link between a woman's right to choose and the gay movement. And I always say, "Don't—". What's important to understand is that the feminist phrase that I used to wear on t-shirts was "My body belongs to me." And so, I would explain to them, "Look. Your body belongs to you—whether you're a man or a woman—and that's what links us together." That, you know, people need to have choices about and control over their bodies. So that made sense. We were—. Certainly—. (crosstalk)

Leon Stevens [00:31:28] There's Dolores Noll. (indicating to copy of High Gear)

John Nosek [00:31:29] Oh, yeah. That's her. You found—

Leon Stevens [00:31:32] Yeah, we haven't—. We interviewed her.

John Nosek [00:31:34] She's deceased now, sadly, but—. So, you know, the Equal Rights Amendment. We were proponents of that. I think, unfortunately, that never did enter the U.S. Constitution. But, you know, when you read about feminism, it's—. You know, it's really humanism in a way. It's not—. I guess I never felt threatened by it, like apparently some men do today. It just seemed logical.

Riley Habyl [00:32:05] Was that—. I'm trying to think of a way to to phrase this. Were you outliers, as far as your—

John Nosek [00:32:15] Political beliefs?

Riley Habyl [00:32:16] Yeah.

John Nosek [00:32:16] Yeah, very much so. Very much so. I think we had to educate our volunteer coworkers on High Gear about why we were not permitting sexual advertising, and why—. It was a constant educate, but it was one-on-one. You know, "It's important—. Even though no lesbians are working on this paper, it's very important that we update people on news, and try to give them features, even if we replicate them from other sources." And that—. By the way, John Grabowski of the Western Reserve Historical Society said, "How were you able to get all these articles? And didn't you have to pay?" and the like. I said, "No, no, no. You have to understand, in the seventies gay newspapers were not that prolific."

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