Abstract
Crawford Pickens talks about moving from Alabama to Cleveland in 1973 to find better employment. He worked at Forest City Foundry and Ohio Aluminum before retiring in July 2021. Before retiring, he maintained plots at a community garden on Sandusky Avenue and E. 112th Street. In 2001, he maintained two plots at the Schaffer-Miles Garden before becoming the garden manager there. In this interview, Pickens discusses what he knows of the garden’s history, the challenges of operating the garden, and what he hopes for the garden’s future.
Interviewee
Pickens, Crawford (interviewee)
Interviewer
Carubia, Ava (interviewer)
Project
Union-Miles
Date
1-14-2025
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
26 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Crawford Pickens interview, 14 January 2025" (2025). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 483011.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/1357
Transcript
Ava Carubia [00:00:00] Recording now. It’s very simple system just on my phone. But today is January 14th, 2025. My name is Ava Carubia and I’m here at NuPoint Development Corporation. Interviewing Mr. Crawford Pickens for the Cleveland Regional Oral History Project. Thank you for agreeing to be interviewed for the record. Can you please state your name, your birth date and where you were born?
Crawford Pickens [00:00:25] My name is Crawford Pickens. My birthday is […] 1955 and I was born in Alabama.
Ava Carubia [00:00:35] Alright, so can you tell the story of how you got to Cleveland, how you ended up here?
Crawford Pickens [00:00:41] Well, I came to Cleveland because I wanted to make more money. And when I graduated from school, I worked for highway state, state highway and I wasn’t making enough money. So my father was already living here. He brought me up here and I got a job.
Ava Carubia [00:01:02] And what year was that?
Crawford Pickens [00:01:03] That was 1973.
Ava Carubia [00:01:05] Okay.
Crawford Pickens [00:01:06] And I’ve been here ever since ’73 up to now. And I retired. I worked at Forest City Foundry for 10 years and then I retired from Ohio Aluminum. I worked there for 37, 37 and a half. Closed 38 years and I retired in July 2021.
Ava Carubia [00:01:35] Okay. Congratulations.
Crawford Pickens [00:01:37] I’ve been retired now four years, going on five. And I’ve been gardening. I started in Alabama. My uncle started me off in Alabama when I was like 7 years old working with him. I worked beside him in the garden, showed me how to plant, harvest stuff and plot. And I probably been doing that probably all my life. And I came to Cleveland, I got married and I had a garden behind my house in my backyard for many years. And so my father came back one day, he told me, he said “Son,” I said “Yes, sir.” He said, “You got kids now. What you plant back there ain’t gonna be enough to raise them.” You know, to help out. He said “I’m gonna get you set up down here.” This development down here on Sandusky. The garden now. I was there for 12 and a half over 13 years down at the garden off of Sandusky, 104. And he got me a spot and I started there, planting.
Ava Carubia [00:02:52] And what year would you say that was?
Crawford Pickens [00:02:57] That was in ’80 round. ’88, ’89. Somewhere in there, I think. I there until, like up until ’90, ’96, ’97, something like that. I guess around about that. And reason why we left there because the water system wasn’t. The line broke and I moved to this one. A buddy of mine told me about this garden out here now here on Miles. And I went up there, came up, stopped up there, asked the lady, she gave me two spots. And I’ve been there since going on 11 years.
Ava Carubia [00:03:44] So what year was that when you moved to the garden on Miles? I can’t do math.
Crawford Pickens [00:03:50] It was in 2000.
Ava Carubia [00:03:53] 2000.
Crawford Pickens [00:03:55] I wanted to try 2000. I’d say it had been by 2002 or 2003.
Ava Carubia [00:04:02] Okay.
Crawford Pickens [00:04:02] I guess.
Ava Carubia [00:04:03] So at that point, who was in charge of the garden?
Crawford Pickens [00:04:08] Bill. Frank, Frank [unclear]. He was in charge of the garden until a year ago. And he stepped down because his health. But I was helping him out as. But I was working and coming over to [unclear] time, whatever he wanted me to do, apply, help out or someone apply this [unclear] doing. I was one of this guy. He just took me on his wing to me to help him out, you know, to run it because his health was falling on him. And then when he retired, I mean, he stepped down. He asked me, “what I want you to do is take over.” I took over in 2021 and I’ve been lead person since 2021. And it’s going up here now, in Miles.
Ava Carubia [00:05:00] So I want to. I want to come back to that later. But I want to go back to you coming to Cleveland. When you first moved here, what area were you living in?
Crawford Pickens [00:05:08] Oh, when I first moved here, I lived off of Doe.
Ava Carubia [00:05:12] Okay.
Crawford Pickens [00:05:12] You know, you know, off East 120.
Ava Carubia [00:05:15] Okay.
Crawford Pickens [00:05:16] And off of 116th.
Ava Carubia [00:05:20] And how long were you there for?
Crawford Pickens [00:05:22] I was there with my mother, my father, about a year, about. I say about eight months. Then I told him that I want me. I got me a little kitchenette off of 89th, between 89th and Hough. And I stayed there until I got married, took my wife and we moved. We had married, then we moved to. Excuse me. We moved to Banbury in Warrensville. And we was there for about two and a half years, maybe going on three. Then we moved out of there and moved to Cleveland Heights off of [unclear]. And we saved up money and bought a house. And then when I got divorced from her in ’80, I think it was ’80, ’88 or ’89. And I met my second wife and we was already saving up. She was already saving up money. I moved to. Onto the West Side, West Park. And that’s where I’m living now.
Ava Carubia [00:06:39] That’s far.
Crawford Pickens [00:06:41] Yeah.
Ava Carubia [00:06:41] Yeah.
Crawford Pickens [00:06:43] Until she passed away in 2020.
Ava Carubia [00:06:46] I’m sorry.
Crawford Pickens [00:06:47] She had a heart attack. Massive heart attack. So right now I’m single.
Ava Carubia [00:06:55] I guess. Going back to still when you came to Cleveland, since you’re from Alabama, what differences did you notice between the South and Cleveland?
Crawford Pickens [00:07:05] Well, the south is okay. I love. Well, I go down every chance I get because that’s my home. And we always had our own land. So the house [unclear] there. So I have a place to stay when I get there, I go down like three times a year down in Alabama. And reason why I really came because of job wise and everything. I never gonna pay no money hardly. And I had to come up here and better myself. You know, at the time, when I graduated from high school, my parents weren’t able enough to send me into college or nothing like that. So I did that to help them out. I got a job to help them out, you know, and stuff. So I’ve been here ever since I graduated from high school.
Ava Carubia [00:08:01] And you talked about, you’ve been gardening since you were 7?
Crawford Pickens [00:08:07] Well, yes. My father. I mean, my uncle. It’s my uncle and my grandfather was too. Had got too old to do any more work, so my uncle took me by his side and showed me how to plant and do things, you know. Yeah.
Ava Carubia [00:08:36] And why do you think you kept gardening all these years?
Crawford Pickens [00:08:40] Because I love vegetables. I raised up on it. You know, greens, peas, tomatoes, things like that. I love the work in it. In it some. I like the way. I like to feel that, you know, I know where my fresh stuff, fresh vegetables coming from. That’s why.
Ava Carubia [00:09:11] So I guess just going and talking more about the garden now, how does the system work? How do people get plots?
Crawford Pickens [00:09:21] Okay, my plots up there is $7 a spot, for a spot. It’s 20x20 and $3 for the pay, that for the summer, for the water for the whole summer. In all it would be 10 dollars. And they do good, they move up. We got. They move up to four spots each year. If they come back and wait this spot and keep it up, they can move advance up every year. That’s how the spot. That’s how it goes up there to the garden. That’s how we do it up there. That’s how I was told how to do it from the. You know, for Ohio State them and stuff.
Ava Carubia [00:10:07] So Ohio State came in and taught y’all how to do stuff?
Crawford Pickens [00:10:10] Yeah, that’s how it was when I first started.
Ava Carubia [00:10:13] Okay.
Crawford Pickens [00:10:15] And we got. I got. I got 29. 29 garden members so far. And I got three more supposed to be joining this year. [unclear] people.
Ava Carubia [00:10:31] Do you know anything about. Because that garden used to be owned by the schools, right?
Crawford Pickens [00:10:37] Yeah, I was told that.
Ava Carubia [00:10:39] Okay.
Crawford Pickens [00:10:41] But I didn’t know nothing about it until I got up there. They was talking about it. That used to be they made it out of community garden or they used to be the school. We had kids and stuff coming. The plants, you know, vegetables and things like that, you know. But. And that happened. And that shed was. That’s like a history. They used to plant. I was told from the older people said that used to be raised. Start off with plants and stuff in there. Plants. Plants, you know. Yeah.
Ava Carubia [00:11:22] Are there any of those older people still left around or?
Crawford Pickens [00:11:26] There are a few, couple of them. A lot of them passed on. I got a few of them still there, was there back when the older people was there, you know.
Ava Carubia [00:11:40] And what else have they told you about how the garden used to be?
Crawford Pickens [00:11:43] It used to be real nice, they said. It used to be real nice and used to have like they had a cookouts because they had the plugs, heat, water running, sink. But the people harvest stuff. They come in there and wash the vegetables off. We got plenty of tables, tables still good. Lights, you know, the lights. All that go on now because. Well, the roof is bad on it and. And it got [unclear], you know. All that is shut down because people broke in after they found out what happened. Broke the line going to the [unclear] and everything, you know, and stuff like that. But they said it was fixed up. It was real nice. They said now you take care of meetings and all that, you know.
Ava Carubia [00:12:46] So what do you think is still similar from the older days of the garden and what’s changed since then?
Crawford Pickens [00:12:55] Well, to me, the way I look at it, it ain’t too much changed because all I’m telling them are doing are very. They remind me. They told me. They remind. I was told that I try to keep everything going. Like Mr. Sim, he was the older guy running back there doing it back then, you know. And the one year I had the kids program, the summer program I had kids came one year. They did a lot of painting. Painting bricks, stuff like that. We got the wall with paint going up in the driveway and I was trying to show them. They wanted me to try to teach them how to harvest and plant stuff and everything. But only reason why I had to turn that down because I didn’t have no running water in the bathroom. You know, I had a bunch of girls.
Ava Carubia [00:14:06] And when did the water get shut off?
Crawford Pickens [00:14:09] Well, the water turned. I get the water cut on. I don’t know how long the water going to the building been shut off. But the water. We got water going to the. For the garden on. I had returned on every year in March, end of March about the Middle of March, end of March, first of April. And they shared all like first of October. The City. Yeah.
Ava Carubia [00:14:37] If you could make the garden the way that you want it, what do you do?
Crawford Pickens [00:14:43] You know, if I can make it back like it used to be and had the money, I have to do the same thing like it was years ago when they had it fixed up. The main thing I would like to have, that’s a history building, you know, had a quick thing, I had the building repaired and I keep the same members I got. Cause they good members and everybody that do work together, you know. And I don’t have. That’s what I would like to have, that did if I could. That’s what I’m talking to what’s called about having the building redid, I mean get a grant, you know, to try to have that building remodeled, roof put on, windows put in and some doors in the bathroom. Main thing, we need a bathroom repair. But the ladies and gentlemen have bathrooms. Cause see, right now, if a lady got to go to the bathroom, that means she got to go back home to use the restroom. And that’s what. If I could have it, that’s what I would like to have did. If I could do it. Get a contractor come in and redo that whole Destroy that whole, because the building’s a good finish, you know, floor, the ceiling. It’s just the roof and the windows and the doors needs to be replaced. So you know, electric running, you know, like so we can have meetings or whatever, you know.
Ava Carubia [00:16:29] When you first joined, how many people had garden plots. First joined the garden? You said in 2002 you joined the garden?
Crawford Pickens [00:16:41] I think, I can’t remember now how many we had. It was about 24, 25.
Ava Carubia [00:16:46] So it stayed pretty much the same. Yeah.
Crawford Pickens [00:16:48] But now it raised up a little more. See what it is now. We had a few deaths and we had a few people have passed away. You know, it’s an up and down situation now. You know, maybe you have 29 or 30 people. Two people may decide I don’t want to come back, you know, they’ll do it one year and say, well, okay, I don’t think I want to be, you know. So I mean that’s way, how it goes, you know. To tell you, be honest with you, that’s the way it go. But the older people, they still hanging in there. They ain’t going nowhere, you know. Cause they say I’m doing a very good job. And I try to, I keep myself busy every day during the summer, you know, everybody work together. You know, what I have. And like I say, I have a good. A good. A good group, you know. Anything I ask them to do, they fall right in there and help me out, you know, so. But that’s the only. That’s why all us. All I want is that building repair like it used to be, you know. That’s the main thing. That’s why I run up on. She came up to the saw me, one day. That’s the first thing we was discussing about that. About the roof, and running, you know, the bathroom.
Ava Carubia [00:18:27] Yeah.
Crawford Pickens [00:18:27] Because they don’t want one of them potty-squatty. So the lady said, no, they don’t want that. Cause it stay too filthy. But I understand, you know, so they have to. You know, most times they come. If they don’t, they stay there and do what they have to do with their garden, they leave.
Ava Carubia [00:18:49] I have a couple more questions that are a little less related to the garden in particular, but one is just that working in the garden with community members, you get to kind of know the community maybe. What would you say about the community along Miles or here in Union-Miles?
Crawford Pickens [00:19:08] Well, right there where we at now, we have no problem. The, have pretty good community. I mean, in that community, they really good. They don’t bother us and we don’t bother them. If they want something, they’ll come across. They’ll come and ask like for some tomatoes, [unclear greens]. We give them. We give to them, you know. And I didn’t have no problem. Oh well. This year, first time we had a problem, but kind of solved it. The guy was coming across the fence. I don’t know where he. I didn’t know if he lived in the community or he did live in it, you know, he was getting as much he can in his pockets like tomatoes, cucumbers. And then a couple times. One time he came back, had a bad, you know. He never wanted to talk to us, you know. Every time we caught him. I caught him about a couple of times, but he jumped the fence, you know. You know, and I got a camera, you know, and everything. And I could see him walking around in the garden with a hoodie on. I never seen his face. He always wore a black hoodie, black slacks and red, black tennis shoes, you know, so. But other than that, we ain’t. We ain’t had no more problem since I’ve been there. By the people in the community, you know. Cause the people that live across from us live in an apartment. They. They very nice, you know. They don’t try to interfere with us or whatever in the garden. Anything, you know, with park on the side, you know, street. It was too. There’s too many cars and they come up in the garden, they had to park outside the bar. So everything get along good.
Ava Carubia [00:21:16] Well, I have one more question that it’s more personal to you just because this is an oral history interview. I’m wondering what message you’d like to leave for future generations that could be listening to this interview.
Crawford Pickens [00:21:29] Say what now?
Ava Carubia [00:21:30] What message would you like to leave for future generations who are potentially listening to this interview?
Crawford Pickens [00:21:36] Like, what you mean, leave a message?
Ava Carubia [00:21:39] Like, if you could tell the younger generation something?
Crawford Pickens [00:21:42] Well, I would tell young generation. The problem is now a lot of young generation, they don’t want. They don’t really want to plant a garden because I had like eight young, That’s why I brought it back up here. People came supposed to be wanting to learn how to plant, learn how to plan a garden. Most things they want to do is play on the phone. They come in, they’re getting paid, the State paying. They were making like, I think, 15 dollars an hour for four hours. They want to come in. They come in in the morning time. They start at 8, leave at 12, you know, and then when you put them in the field to do something, tell them, okay, they got to cut the weeds down. They cutting the whole thing down, the plants and everything. So it’s hard to get a young person, very young person to work in the garden. The way I. I mean, the way my community, way I look at it, because I spend with them, you know. You know, that’s about all I can say, though. They’s not gonna want to do it. They say this is not for me, you know, so.
Ava Carubia [00:23:06] Well, that’s my last question. Do you have anything you want to add within this interview?
Crawford Pickens [00:23:14] Well, since the last interview, I’m glad you all had me come in and interview and I’m letting you know what everything. How things going. But the main thing I would like for you to do is. And another thing I would like for you to do is, we need an address. Because that’s the problem we having now. When I get ready to turn the water on, first thing the City ask me, what’s the address to the garden. We don’t have the address. Everybody tell me they gonna. They’ll look into it. They’re gonna do this. I ain’t hear. I ain’t hear no more from it. And I’ve been digging, trying to find it, you know, and the one address I used to try to get them to turn it on used East 120th and Miles. But it, they want to come and tell me, “That’s not an address.” But I end up. I had to go through so many changes to get the water cut on and cut off. You know, that’s the important thing I really need now is that I need an address between now and April, you know, and everything. So I went to the City. They have the mayor, have a program. I go there and be next door here, you know. I went there a little before Thanksgiving and I told him the same thing, that I need an address. So he told me that he’ll look into it and see he could find. He definitely could find it. But I ain’t heard. I gave him my phone number, my name and everything. I ain’t heard nothing from it, you know. And another thing I would like to do is like I told what’s her name who came up there, did an interview with me. I asked for the site to get a grant to get this building remodel. And we’ll go from there, you know, because the building is solid. It’s a good building. It’s not. It needs just a roof on it, windows on it and doors on it and electric and water, the line running for the bathroom. That’s the important thing that we really need right now.
Ava Carubia [00:25:32] Okay, well, I’m going to go ahead and pause this interview.
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