Abstract

In this 2025 interview, Paul Hill, Jr. reflects on his early life in Cleveland and decision to move to East Cleveland in the early 1980s to raise his children in a predominantly Black community. He discusses his extensive educational background and his early career in the federal government, where he worked on school desegregation, civil-rights compliance, and racial conflict mediation. Hill describes his long tenure as President and CEO of East End Neighborhood House where he expanded youth, family, and community programs. He also recounts his influential scholarship and institution-building, including his book "Coming of Age", and his founding of the National Rites of Passage Institute, which has trained hundreds of adults and impacted more than 10,000 youth nationwide.

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Interviewee

Hill, Paul (interviewee)

Interviewer

Mays, Nick (interviewer)

Project

East Cleveland

Date

11-11-2025

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

137 minutes

Transcript

Nick Mays [00:00:00] My name is Dr. Nicholas S. Mays. Today is November 11th, 2025. Today we are joined by Mr. Paul Hill Jr. Conducting an oral history interview for the East Cleveland oral History Project. Mr. Hill is an educator, so civil rights practitioner, 33 year nonprofit CEO, founder of the National Rights of Passage Institute, and an author whose work has shaped youth development nationwide. Mr. Hill is an East Cleveland resident residing in the city for over 40 years. Our conversation today explores his personal journey, the evolution of thought and his enduring relationship with the city of East Cleveland. Mr. Hill, welcome and thank you for your participation.

Paul Hill [00:01:03] Oh, thank you for having me here, Dr. Mays

Nick Mays [00:01:05] Can we start with your name, age and date of birth?

Paul Hill [00:01:12] Paul Hill Jr. 80 years of age, birth […] 1945.

Nick Mays [00:01:20] Thank you, Mr. Hill. So I want to begin examining or discussing your early life, Mr. Hill. Where were you born and raised?

Paul Hill [00:01:31] Born in Cleveland, Ohio, at Mary B. Talbert Hospital. That used to be on 55th, close to, well, 55th in Woodland. Raised in public housing. Early years, formative years, public housing, Outhwaite in the central area of Cleveland. Then moved to the Union Miles area as a kindergartner. 12309 Oakville. Lived in that area from kindergarten through the early parts of seventh grade. [00:02:11] Then we moved to Lee Harvard. Lee Harvard won 5505 Eldermere Avenue and then left there and started higher education. I went to Charles Dickens Elementary School, Alexander Hamilton Middle School, then transferred to Charles Elliot, which was called a junior high school then, but a middle school, and then went to John Adams High School where I graduated in 1964.

Nick Mays [00:02:47] Mr. Hill, can you introduce us to your parents and siblings?

Paul Hill [00:02:53] Mother and father. Father, Paul Hill Sr. Mother, Mabel Craig Hill. Both were born in Alabama. Father, Pittsview, Alabama. My mother, Selma, Alabama. They were raised in the south and migrated part of that second migration, that great migration during the late 30s. They relocated when they were teenagers, I think between the ages of 17, maybe 16 and 18 to Cleveland, Ohio. They left Alabama because opportunities being much better in the north as far as employment and you know, because of the type of oppression, repression that existed in the south, you know, throughout that time, continues to some extent today. So they moved north, what is called Alabama North.

Nick Mays [00:03:58] Alabama North. I heard that term before.

Paul Hill [00:04:03] Yeah, that’s the title of a good book that talks about really it focuses on Cleveland, but the migration to Cleveland where jobs were Detroit. But specifically she does a lot of research on Cleveland. Black folks from Alabama in particular, have.

Nick Mays [00:04:25] You ever had conversations with your parents about their own experience in the Jim Crow South?

Paul Hill [00:04:33] You know, thinking about that? They really never talked about it because of those experiences. I know I had relatives because most of my father’s relatives already were here, his uncles and aunts, but they really never talked about their experiences in the South. My mother never talked about it. She had cousins that would come up and that would stay with us later on in life when they were older. When I was asked about the south, they just said they were just some horrible bad experiences because I never knew my grandfathers and they never knew their fathers because their fathers were killed before they were born as a result of certain experiences, you know, within the South. So they never talked about, you know, those experiences except later on in life sharing with us. They were very harsh experiences, bad memories. And that was one of the main reasons that they ended up coming north, or uncles and aunts came north, found jobs, and then they followed them.

Nick Mays [00:05:43] Yeah, I was just gonna ask, do you know who received them here? As for the most part, there was always kinfolks or people to receive migrants from the South.

Paul Hill [00:05:53] And you said, well, my father, he had four brothers and one sister. So the older brothers left and found jobs and then sent for them. And they followed them, uncles and aunts for the older brother. My father’s older brothers were already here and they had found jobs and the rest of the family followed. For my mother, she ended up. Her mother stayed in the south, remarried, and she came and lived with her uncle and aunt until she met my father. And then they were married. They were married in late teens or early twenties.

Nick Mays [00:06:42] What was–as much as you can recall, what was life like growing up as a young child, a young man in Cleveland?

Paul Hill [00:06:52] You know, I think of memories of living in public housing in the central area off way. Never forget, you know, living on a street in public housing called Case Court. And where we lived. And I guess I was. My memory, if it serves right, three, four, four years of age, moved when we. When I was five. But remember, the public housing, it was. It was fairly integrated as far as blacks and whites. And that was some of the first public housing in the central area, you know, within the United States. And, you know, I, you know, fond memories of what I remember relative to living in public housing, in public housing at that time, it really reflected a history as far as there was only a certain area that blacks that migrated from the south during the 30s and the 40s and the 50s could live. And that was the sanctuary Of Cleveland sanctuary of Cleveland public housing. You think of my father that went to Central High School. Some of his classmates were Carl Stokes and Louis Stokes. They grew up in public housing, living with their mother in the sanctuary. I think of some of my peers, you know, former councilman from the sanctuary, Alani Burton, you know, grew up in the Central Area. So lots of individuals that I that end up in my peers, you know, their parents and themselves, grew up in public housing. So they bring back some, you know, fond memories. Then remember moving to Union Miles, where my parents, along with their uncle, purchased a house on Oakville Avenue in Union Miles area. We lived downstairs, myself and two brothers and my uncle and aunt lived upstairs with their daughter. And I remember the community at that time at Union Miles area being very integrated to have. Charles Dickens Elementary School was very integrated. And this was before integration and the focus on desegregation. They were ethnic communities that I remember you had a strong Eastern European population and an Italian population relative to some of the students I went with at Charles Dickens, as well as Alexander Hamilton and John Adams High School. So I have very fond memories of my early years of development and growing up as far as family existence, as far as community existence, as far as never remember any. You know, the positive always outweighed the negative. So it was a very nurturing environment. I remember Antioch Baptist Church, which was my family church, was very important as far as my early development. Attending, you know, Sunday school, junior church, you know, picnics that the church had. So I have very fond memories in Antioch Baptist Church was very important, you know, as far as my development, you know, my social development.

Nick Mays [00:10:25] What did your parents do for work?

Paul Hill [00:10:30] You know, my father, when he moved to Cleveland, he worked at National Bronze. That was right before World War II and even during World War II. And he became a union steward and became very involved actively within the community specifically. And it brings back memories of, I guess you would call it my rights of passage. Myself and brother Ron in particular, with an organization called the Future Outlook League, which was started by John O. Holly. The main post office downtown on Orange Avenue is named after John O. Holly. John o’ Holly started the Future Outlook League, which my uncle. My uncle Albert Porter and his sister Leila Porter were the founding members of that organization. Was followed by my father and some of his cousins becoming members of that organization. But it was an organization that focused on equal employment opportunities for African Americans in Cleveland. The motto was, do not spend your money where.

Nick Mays [00:11:48] Don’t buy where you can’t. Don’t Spend or don’t buy where you can’t work.

Paul Hill [00:11:54] Exactly. At that time, I remember Woolworths, which was a drugstore. Black people would spend plenty of money there, but they wouldn’t hire them. Ohio built telephone company at that time would. So they use boycotts and picketing. And I remember their headquarters was located on 55th and Woodland. There used to be a market on 56 and right above that market with the Future Outlook League. And I used to go to meetings with my father, my brother and I be involved in the picketing and economic boycotts. One of the things that stands out about the Future Outlook League was the equal roles of men and women. Because I remember in those meetings there were men and women and women, you know, they shared their opinions and were involved in US Strategy meetings. So that stood out to me. So that was a baptism. As far as my father’s involvement and the Future outlook with his cousins. As far as community activity and community activism within Cleveland at a very early age.

Nick Mays [00:13:00] Would you say that your early experience shaped your sense of justice, education or community responsibility?

Paul Hill [00:13:11] Oh, yes. That was my first rites of passage. Father being a role model, my uncles being role models because they were actively involved seeking community equality for African Americans. As far as justice. My mother, she worked a variety of jobs. She was a graduate of, I guess it was called John Hay High School back then. Also, but she worked a variety of different jobs. She later ended up working at the Cleveland Post Office where she retired, as did a lot of African Americans professionals, non professionals. Seemed like all of them worked either part time after their regular jobs. What was their main job at the Cleveland Post Office? As far as what was important anchors for African Americans. As far as employment, I would say living in public housing. Public housing was very important. Religious institutions very important in development as well as the post office was very important as far as being able to provide income for being able to purchase homes and sending children to, you know, onto higher education. Those institutions were very important.

Nick Mays [00:14:42] How was living in public houses, housing important in those days compared to how the public housing is thought of? The perception around that it’s extreme, you know, people who are of extreme poverty, single parenthood, drug crises. When we think about, you know, no one wants to be there but for their situation. The way you speak to it is if it was a different dynamic or like opportunity.

Paul Hill [00:15:28] You would have to really think about the 4 million of us that were freed coming out of enslavement. As far as many ended up sharecropping the discrimination that existed in housing and employment, you know, limited opportunities as far as employment, limited opportunities as far as fair housing, then you have to look at the values, you know, that we came out of enslavement with. I always say internally our values were much stronger then, than you know, now as far as what was important to us; that sense of family. Because one of the first things that we did in coming out of enslavement was looking for lost family members, getting married in record breaking numbers. So family and community was very strong and very important to us. [00:16:34] Coming out of enslavement, it seemed like the more we became assimilated into American culture, especially with the discrimination, the various forms of discrimination that mutated, you know, it tended to work against us. And even though we ended up with the external trappings of what I guess you would consider success, as far as certain opportunities, doors of opportunities being open, those values that our forebears and ancestors had during enslavement, coming out of enslavement, weren’t as strong the more we became assimilated into American culture. Poverty has always existed in the African American community. But I kind of differentiate between material poverty and spiritual poverty. There was a sense of integrity and ethics. We had more so after slavery than we have now because of those internal strengths that we had that got us through enslavement. They helped us during the early years relative to the various migrations north. [00:18:00] You know, a lot of those values, you know, we have lost. Franz Renan, you know, in his favorite author of mine, a scholar of mine, you know, he talks about the oppressed taking on the values of the oppressors. So even though opportunities may have availed themselves, relatively speaking, as we progress relative to assimilation America, some of those values that we lost, that represented our strengths in the past, we lost as far as moving forward into the future and the values that are reflected of a market economy, you know, of our oppressors, like overemphasis on individualism, over emphasis on materialism, over emphasis on hedonism or pleasure seeking, we ended up taking on, that worked against us to an extent as far as the importance of family, you know, and community.

Nick Mays [00:19:03] Wow. Well, but so I want to pivot and I want to begin talking about your family and your connection with East Cleveland. Can you first introduce us to your immediate family, including your wife?

Paul Hill [00:19:22] My wife, Marquita Hill. We were married. We got married in 1969. I met her at Ohio University. She was in high school at the time. She was a senior in High school, junior, senior, I think senior. And I was entering my. I was a sophomore at Ohio University and she came down to Ohio University in Athens, Ohio for a little sisters weekend. I was a friend of her cousin, Earl Greer, and he introduced me to her. And we, you know, I met, we had a long distance relationship because she lived in Cincinnati, you know, I’m from Cleveland. But we ended up getting married in 1969. And we’re coming up on our February 1, 2025, will be are. 57 years of marriage.

Nick Mays [00:20:31] February 2026, like next year or.

Paul Hill [00:20:34] February 1, 2026 will be 57th year of being married. You know, I live with locke. We’d have eight children. One died in childbirth. So we have seven living five daughters and, and two sons. And of the five daughters and two sons, we have 10 grandchildren. All of my children are college educated with postgraduate education too. You know, very proud of them. A lot of them have followed us as far as their involvement within the community. Family being very, very important to them as family was important to myself, you know, and my wife, the importance of family. And so those values have been carried on, you know, through our children. [00:21:35] Our oldest child is, you know, 55. The youngest one is in there, 40s, 40s early. Oldest grandchild is 24, youngest grandchild being 5.

Nick Mays [00:21:56] Thank you for that, Mr. Hill. Why? Well, first of all, when did you and your wife move to East Cleveland?

Paul Hill [00:22:09] Well, you know, after being married, end up going to, well, living in Cincinnati for a short period of time with my wife. What’s from where? I worked at General Electric because I had graduated with a degree in business administration with a minor in accounting. So I worked as an accounting clerk at General Electric plant in Cincinnati. Then I ended up getting a scholarship, becoming part of the teachers Corps and going to graduate school at the University of Kentucky. So we moved to Kentucky and that’s where after my undergrad degree from Ohio University, but moved to Kentucky where I got a degree in education and then from Kentucky, ended up moving to the University of Wisconsin, where I got a Ford Fellowship in a program where I ended up receiving a master’s in Urban Educational Policy Studies and getting also a degree in social work.And then I ended up getting a job with the United States Justice Department in Atlanta, Georgia. So we lived there for a while. That was during the Nixon Administration. Then ended up leaving there, getting a job with the United States Health Education Welfare Department, Office of Civil Rights. Ended up moving to Kentucky, Cleveland. [00:23:56] Once we lived in Cleveland, we lived in Shaker for a number of years. And we lived in Shaker for about 15 years. We had two houses that we purchased in Shaker. One, the first one was on Winslow. Second one was on Chadbourne. And then we ended up moving in 1980 to East Cleveland. [00:24:21] And the reason why East Cleveland was, you know, some of those subtle racism that we experience, our children experienced in Shaker Heights at that time, relative to neighbors. And we always, my wife in particular, always wanted our children to be brought up in a situation where they were in the majority. And we found she found a house in these Cleveland, really a nice home that would accommodate the number of children that we had. [00:24:53] So made a decision to leave Shaker and move to East Cleveland in 1980. It was interesting when we moved from Shaker to East Cleveland. It astounded a lot of our friends and some of our neighbors. First thing, they wanted to know if I had lost my job or what was wrong, why would we be leaving Shaker Heights, going to East Cleveland. Because of the stigma at that time that continues today when people think of East Cleveland more negative than positive. But we felt that East Cleveland had a lot to offer and that the positive outweighed the negative, especially relative to our children being brought up in an environment where they were in the majority. [00:25:38] Anything that was lacking in East Cleveland we made up for relative to our family situation.

Nick Mays [00:25:48] I was going to ask you, and you made some or a brief mention to it. How do you think living in a city or in a space where the majority looked like you–how did that shape your experience as a family? But also, how do you think it shaped the experience for your children growing up in the city where the majority of people look like them? .

Paul Hill [00:26:21] One of the benefits of living in a majority, where you’re in the majority in a community. It really goes back to looking at my mother and my father and some of my forebears and even my cousins my age that were brought up in the south and went to all black schools. [00:26:47] And the benefits of that, as far as the tightness and unity that exists within the family itself, as far as self esteem, feeling good about who they are, you know; thinking about something as simple as very close cousins, the Craigs being brought up in Selma, Alabama, even with all that oppression and repressive type of experiences, the schools that they went to where they were in the majority; the type of teachers that they have that live in the community, and the high expectation that their teachers had of them singing every morning the black national anthem. So there’s a lot of positive Things relative to self esteem, belongingness and love that comes out of a situation where the community that you live in reflects the majority of people that represent you. There’s certain strengths, a certain positiveness relative to belonging and love and self esteem that comes out of those experiences. So we felt the same thing relative to living in East Cleveland. One thing about East Cleveland, our children have always been bi culture. I’ll never forget some of their friends. They always referred to my children in our family as the Huxtables. Because of our children were able to speak standard English, non standard English, you know, just to differentiate between.And I don’t say that to stigmatize non standard English because non standard English is a carry over from the vernacular relative to our forebears and ancestors from Africa, relative to word endings, not using verbs. All of those are legitimate linguistic strengths that we just carry forth that are reflected in what is called non standard English. But our children were very bicultural. They could fit in any type of environment and feel comfortable. So the East Cleveland experience did nothing more than strengthen who they felt that they were relative to being of African ancestry, being African Americans. So we felt there was certain stress being in that where we were, majority environment that reflected who we were. And some of those are reflected.I’ll never forget doing some consulting work for the old Society bank, which became Key Corp. And there was a good friend of mine, Jan Bullard, who was a senior vice president at Society bank at that time. And I was doing some work around developing a mail center on the Case Western Reserve campus for males in general. And I developed one as part of this specific for African American males. So she was familiar with that. And at that time Society bank was having a problem with a high turnover of entry level and middle level black managers. And she asked me if I would come in and do an assessment and develop a program. So I did do assessment and there was a turnover level among entry level black managers and middle managers. So I develop a program. It was called the 3M program, male minority and Mobility program with African American male entry level managers as well as the middle level managers. But I also said in order for me to do that, I would also have developed a multicultural program for their white managers because a lot of the problems were emanating from the white managers as far as the management styles that weren’t good for a diverse workforce. So to make them aware of that. But one of the things I noticed among the entry level black managers and middle managers, the ones that tended to be more successful and able to adjust and adapt to that corporate culture environment were those that had graduated from HBCUs and that were from the south and that were brought up in a majority environment, majority African American environment. And it had to do with their sense of feeling good about themselves, you know, having higher self esteem and able to adapt and adjust, you know, within that particular environment, which I thought was unique. And, you know, did some research on that, and that tended to be the case where they were brought up or went to school, where they were in the majority or brought up in the community where they were in the majority. They tended to feel better about themselves relative to self esteem as far as who they were, where they came from. That tended to be a strength.

Nick Mays [00:32:17] In contrast to today. What was East Cleveland like? What was the socioeconomic dynamics in East Cleveland.

Paul Hill [00:32:26] When we moved to East Cleveland back in 1980? East Cleveland at that time was the second largest African American community in the United states, following East St. Louis. Had a population of pretty close to 50,000. It was vibrant. You know, we had our, you know, higher levels of, you know, when you look at socioeconomic conditions relative to other communities wasn’t. [00:32:56] It wasn’t as high, but it was a, you know, vibrant community, you know, compared to East Cleveland today, you know, population loss, you talking about a 60% population loss. When we moved there in 1980 to the present time, the high school at that time we moved there, a population of about 2,500. Total population of these Cleveland city schools now is around maybe 1100. Population at high school, which was 2,500 back in 1980, is around maybe 300. But again, you know, you had Huron Road Hospital. As far as employment that was provided the tax base that, you know, contributing to the tax base, you had Neela Park, General Electric, their lighting division. So the tax base, which was much, much more vibrant and better then that now, a lot of businesses that existed then in East Cleveland don’t exist, you know, today. So East Cleveland, when we moved there, was a more vibrant community as far as the tax base, as far as employment, you know, as far as, you know, the city and school district itself, you know, compared to now housing, then you get a lot of people rented, own their homes. But today you have more houses that have been abandoned, foreclosed and demolished. Population is, you know, from 40,000. Now you’re talking about a population probably around 12,000 compared to close to 50,000.

Nick Mays [00:34:44] Speak to the. Additionally to the business dynamics, the small. Businesses, stores and service businesses.

Paul Hill [00:34:55] Well, you had more, you had more black businesses in the, in the small businesses in the plaza, little mom and pop stores, you had chain grocery stores, Pick and Pay. That was in the end of the street you had drugstores. So more vibrant business community, black owned then, you know, than now. A lot of the, you know, large chain stores like grocery stores are gone, drugstores are gone. We don’t have a chain store, grocery store. We have a chain store, grocery store or drugstore. In East Cleveland today, most of the stores are and businesses are owned by immigrants, first generation, second generation immigrants, such as the gas station, beauty supply stores, you know, the small, the small grocery stores. So as far as, you know, black owned businesses, very few if any I could think of, maybe Tucker’s Casino, you know, a few of the bars. But as far as, you know, grocery stores, drug stores, you know, a few, maybe clothing stores, but not at the level when we first moved there. So very economically and socially oppressed now, you know, than in the past. But there are still strong families. One thing about East Cleveland, it’s a city of then and continues now of strong families that still live there. I think of the Cockfield family, I think of the Raheem family, but friends of my children, their friends, families still live there. Those that haven’t died off.

Nick Mays Thank you for that, Mr. Hill. I want to pivot to our, to the next topic, which is higher education. You’ve mentioned some of your degrees, but just for clarity, can you discuss your various. Start off by just kind of highlighting what degrees you earned, whether undergrad and undergraduate and then graduate school. But then maybe speak to why you went that direction in terms of your degrees, especially your graduate level degrees.

Paul Hill [00:37:39] You know, in order to speak to that, I have to also make reference to the high school that I attended, John Adams. At the time there were three tracks. Vocational track, college freft track and business track. I ended up being a combination part of the business track and college prep track. And I think of 1980, Shaw High School. They had a vocational track. They had a vocational track, which was very important during my high school days and during the early days at relative to Shaw, having those variety of tracts that were made available to students. We don’t have those type of tracks, you know, within the Cleveland public schools now or the East Cleveland public school system. But the advantage relative to myself and higher education has to do with as a result of being, you know, taking bookkeeping courses and advanced bookkeeping courses at John Adams High School and also across the street from me, the community I lived in. Lee Harvard, remember Jesse Howell, and he had graduated, him and his wife from Tennessee State University, and she was a teacher and he was an accountant. Then next to him was Elmore White, who was one of the first black, I think it was the first black CPA in Cleveland. But having them as neighbors, and I know with my bookkeeping, especially my advanced bookkeeping, Mr. Howell across the street, he would help me because we had what was called a practice set, which was like a little mini business, and you would do the books for it. But Mr. Howell helped me with that. And then I think of, you know, being proud of Elmore Whiting being a cpa. So that really helped me get interested in just business and then taking bookkeeping, you know, the bookkeeping courses that I had at John Adams High School, along with the college prep courses. So when I went to Ohio University, you know, I majored in Business Administration, you know, with a major in accounting. But I attribute that to my, you know, my experience relative to my neighbors being teaching bookkeeping at Tennessee State and accounting at Tennessee State, and then having a neighbor that was a CPA and them being able to share their experiences in helping me. So, you know, so had John at Ohio University, you know, majoring and graduating with a degree in Business Administration. And then the only reason I didn’t go on to get an mba, which I wanted to, was because of the draft. It was during the Vietnam War. And so I ended up, while I was also at Ohio University, getting certified and education, business education. I got a Business Administration degree, also took some education courses and became certified in business education. So became aware of a program called the Teachers Corps, where you get a graduate degree while teaching. So I ended up being part of the Teachers Corps and getting a fellowship to University of Kentucky, where I taught at George Washington Carver elementary School, the sixth grade, and also worked on a degree in education the other half of the day. That way I was able to avoid the draft because at that time, if you were in education, you get a deferment, and married, you get a deferment, which that later changed. So the first graduate degree was in education from the University of Kentucky. And then finding out about the Ford Fellowship. It was a Ford Fellowship program for getting a degree in Urban Educational Policy Study. And that was a PhD program that I got accepted into. So end up going to University of Wisconsin, Madison in the School of Education, focusing on Urban Educational Policy Study. But then, you know, making a decision, even though I was in that PhD track, moving forward towards that, you know, I took some courses in social work. [00:42:36] So I ended up, instead of pursuing PhD, I ended up Getting a master’s in Urban Educational Policy Study Program in Urban Educational Policy Studies and then getting a degree in a master’s in Social Work at the University of Wisconsin. So those 2 degrees ended up getting master’s in at University of Wisconsin Madison, which was quite an experience because while I was at the University of Wisconsin, I ended up being drafted. I never forget going down to Milwaukee to get my physical. But again, I had always suffered from migraine headaches. And once I made them aware of that, they sent me to an oral surgeon. And based on a history of migraines, I ended up getting a medical diferment and not going to Vietnam.

Nick Mays [00:43:35] As I recall, the Ford foundation did a lot of work in Cleveland with a series of civil rights organizations. Were you recruited by the Ford foundation or how did you connect with the Ford foundation and that program?

Paul Hill [00:43:55] Well, at that time when I was at the University of California, Kentucky, there were some individuals from the Ford foundation that were there that were recruiting individuals for the fellowship for that particular fellowship program in Urban Educational Policy Studies. So I became interested and then I applied and I was awarded at Ford Foundation Fellowship to the University of Wisconsin. And it was really interesting while I was at the University of Kentucky, which really one of the reasons I got. I got the dual degree in social work because of the community experience I had at George Washington Carver elementary School teaching in sixth grade and also had a part time job in Kentucky at the YMCA and doing some work with a recreational center near the elementary George Washington Carver elementary School. And what was astounding to me, you know, I was familiar with poverty, but not to the level of poverty that I experienced being in Kentucky, especially going to some of the rural areas in Kentucky. And the poverty that existed not only in the black community, but the poverty existed in the white community in some of those hollows. Never forget being in Breathitt county, which was one of the poorest communities in the United States at that time. And the majority of people that lived there were white. But just looking at the social conditions relative to poverty and the health challenges of black and white folks in. In Kentucky at that time, folks used to stay in Lexington because it was known for horse breeding and the thoroughbred racing. But the conditions of the majority of people in Kentucky at that time in Kentucky and the rural areas was just horrendous. And I really. And I guess it goes back to my experience with the [inaudible], working with my, you know, assisting my father and my father being involved in the community, but looking at the discrimination and looking at the poverty levels and the challenges and that being reflected, you know, within my experience in Lexington, Kentucky, made me interested in getting that degree in social work, feeling what I could do relative to the community to kind of remedy some of these conditions that I experienced that people were living under.

Nick Mays [00:46:41] Thank you. Okay, Mr. Hill, so we’ll pivot. We’ll talk about your career: government, nonprofit, teaching, consulting. Let us begin with your federal service, your work with the federal government. Can you talk about your work at the US Department of Justice?

Paul Hill [00:47:05] My work with the United States Justice Department was with a department called Community Relations Services. And I worked in the Southeastern district out of Atlanta, Georgia and was hired as a regional educational specialist out of Atlanta, covering, I think at the time there was six states that were part of that district specifically working in the area of mediation and crisis intervention. [00:47:43] Because at that time, you know, working with cities that were given court ordered desegregation remedies where they had to desegregate their school systems. So I would go in and mediate between the United States government that provided those court orders and the city and the school district to ready them forward, or any kind of problems or issues that that may have existed specifically as related to school districts within those states. Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, South Carolina, North Carolina, all those various states. Specifically I work with developing programs at HBCUs for displaced Black teachers and black administrators. And as a result of the court order desegregation, the majority, I would say majority of all of the black schools were closed down. And as a result of them being closed, a lot of the black teachers ended up being, and administrators ended up being displaced. So helping them to do programs that we set up, I remember at South Carolina State and Orangeburg, at Tuskegee, but displacement centers, they help them find employment in these desegregated school systems. Many of them left education, but many, some stayed in education. But to me, one of the downsides that really came out of the experience was seeing which we still suffer from today, the number of African American teachers and administrators that we lost, that came out of these neighborhood based communities and cities where black schools were closed down with these teachers and administrators, lived in the community, had high expectations of the students. And it was really reflected in the social and educational development, you know, of these students, black students, and then going into desegregated situation where they really weren’t welcome because they were forced through court order, the neighborhood community schools no longer existed. But I dealt with those type of issues and problems and it really had an effect on me really seeing the downside of that Brown versus Topeka Board of Education; Brown one and Brown two. Especially brown around two. Whereas today to me, we lost more than we gained as a result of desegregation. It was really never integration. It was always desegregation.

Nick Mays [00:50:48] What’s the difference?

Paul Hill [00:50:49] I was just getting ready to go into the difference between the two. Integration is a reciprocal process. It’s a two way process, giving and receiving on both sides–the majority population and the minority population, black people. But it was always one sided. That did not work out in the best interests of black people. We were always receiving and whatever we had to give relative to our culture and our experience wasn’t received and wasn’t welcome. Desegregation is more of a numbers game. The certain threshold and really the premise of sitting black children next to any white child, that something was going to jump off these white children irregardless of the socioeconomic conditions on these black children. But relative to achievement, socioeconomic conditions were very important because you had poor majority population children that suffered from the same or had the same problems as children from poor that were African American children that had socioeconomic problems. So it’s like poor with poor or those conditions aren’t going to contribute to the welfare of whoever is involved in that situation, be they black or white. There’s nothing magic just about being white because they suffer from the same problems, many of them as we do. So we have more in common than we don’t other than just being, you know, the social construct of being black and being white. So, you know, my feelings about integration and desegregation and integration has really never existed because that has to be more on a volunteer basis. You know, the situation I experienced when I was in Cleveland, the elementary school I went to and the high school I went to that wasn’t forced through a court order, that just existed, you know, that was more of community dynamics. Yeah, community dynamics, which was an exceptional during that period of time. You didn’t find it in a lot of places.

Nick Mays [00:53:13] Let’s move on to your work at U.S. department of Health, Education and Welfare. Talk about that. 

Paul Hill [00:53:18] And the reason I left the United States Justice Department was joined the Nixon administration and it was cutbacks. So the particular agency I worked for, department I was last hired. So the first to be what they call to let go or rifted, rifted mean I was shifted to another government organization. The government organization I ended up going to after the Justice Department was the United States Health, Education Welfare Department, Office of Civil Rights, elementary and Secondary Education division where I was an equal opportunity specialist that focused on dealing with school systems around learning disability classes in what was called then EMR educationally mentally retarded or remediation classes. And looking at the disproportionate numbers of brown and black children that ended up being in the EMR educationally mentally remediation classes as opposed to learning disability classes and the difference between the two learning disability classes based when you’re assessed when, where you would be put in a learning disability class, you would take certain classes but you would be mainstream with the rest of the student population. Whereas in the EMR classes you were segregated. You spent your entire class day within that environment. So there was a disproportionate number of black and brown children that were in EMR classes. Brown because of, because of the Spanish language being their primary language. They were at a disadvantage. And English at that time wasn’t taught as a second language. So they were at a disadvantage. And that was reflected in their grades and their performance. And standardized testing and then also the standardized testing with African Americans because they were, you know, the norming of them. They were more favorable towards the European American community. So we did not do well on those standardized testings because we weren’t represented in the standardization, in the random sampling of students, you know, like the Stanford Bernays, the Westler at that time they discriminated against brown and black children.

Nick Mays [00:55:51] What years or decades were you at the university? In higher education. 

Paul Hill [00:55:56] From undergrad 69 through when I completed my master’s work in 1972. And then the federal government was from during the mid-70s.

Nick Mays [00:56:15] So you work for both the Department of Justice and Department of Health Education and Welfare. In the 70s?

Paul Hill [00:56:22] In the 70s, during that period of court order desegregation.

Nick Mays [00:56:26] So moving on to your work in non profit and community leadership with the East End Neighborhood House. How did that come about, first and foremost? Well, let’s start there and then I want to talk about the mission. What was the mission of the organization. And your mission Mission. 

Paul HillWhat organization is it?

Nick Mays [00:56:52] Oh, excuse me, the East End Neighborhood House.

Paul Hill [00:56:55] Okay. Yeah. Okay. So we’re going to talk about now what.

Nick Mays [00:57:00] So we’re moving on. We’re pivoting to talk about your work at the East End neighborhood. You started in the late 1970s. You became the CEO right.

Paul Hill [00:57:12] In between My federal employment and going to East End Neighborhood House. One of the school districts when I was with United States Health Education, Welfare Department, Officer Rights, elementary and Secondary Education. One of the school districts that I did In a title VII assessment of as related to special education was the Cleveland Heights University High school system. And I ended up being. And while I left HEW, I ended up being offered a position as associate director of human relations in the Cleveland Heights University Heights school district. And the specific program that I was hired to be the assistant director for was a project where they had received federal funding to deal with the in migration of minorities, African Americans from Cleveland into the Cleveland Heights University Heights school system and different issues and concerns as a result of minorities moving into that majority schools.

Nick Mays [00:58:29] Really quick, why was it called University? Why was it called Cleveland Heights University?

Paul Hill [00:58:35] Because it was two cities that had Merged the school districts. University Heights, which was a separate city, and then Cleveland Heights which was a separate city. Instead of having separate school systems, they, they, they consolidated the school system, you know, which made sense, save money. And since they were contingent, contingent to one another, in a contingent area to one another neighborhood to one another. So that’s why they called it that. So, you know, I was hired, I ended up hiring. At that time we had a staff of 14. I was directly responsible for hiring seven of the staff. And it was a very unique staff who ended up hiring to work. Lonnie Burten, who was a well known at that time. He was working on his PhD in Sociology at Case Western Reserve University. And he was from the century of Cleveland. But he was noted. He ended up becoming a council person for the city of Cleveland. But a very, very unique. He died at an early age, untimely death, heart attack. But he probably would end up being city council president and mayor of Cleveland. But very dynamic, brilliant that integrated theory with scholarship. But I ended up hiring him. Another individual, Frank Ross, a good friend of mine, I hired him from Cleveland. Very unique individual as far as his skills and talents. And another individual named Art Brook. But it was an extraordinary team as far as dealing with some of the problems of race and class within Cleveland Heights University Heights. Setting up workshop for teachers and administrators, you know, working with the community, bringing the community and the school closer together, working around some cultural issues and dynamics to as far as the diverse student population that existing teachers, majority teachers who are white should be familiar with in order to reconcile their teaching style with the learning style of the new teachers coming in. So that was a great experience. We were so effective and efficient that there was a certain contingent within the community of majority population. They wanted us out. They didn’t want to see the program refunded. So the program wasn’t refunded. Some of the individuals that I had hired, ended up being hired by the district, but some of us were let go. And that’s when I ended up going from there teaching at Cleveland State and Cuyahoga Community College. [01:01:27] That’s when my teaching in higher education came into place and continued that teaching in higher education on a part time basis. When I ended up being offered a position at a community mental health center in Cleveland called the Murtis Taylor. Murtis Taylor was a neighborhood center that had a mental health component and community service component. [01:01:55] And I ended up of being the assistant director, associate director for the community service component. And that’s where my, you know, community Masters in Social Work, you know, kicked in. And that was for the, you know, the Kinsman community. So I worked there. And then while there, after two years, I was offered a position as the executive director for the East End Neighborhood House. [01:02:27] And East End Neighborhood House was located in Buckeye Woodland area of Cleveland and one of the oldest and largest community based neighborhood centers that come out of the Neighborhood House movement in Cleveland. It was founded in 1907 by a Hungarian immigrant named Hedwig Kosbab. She founded it on her front porch and set it up as a to provide services to help Eastern Europeans, Hungarians in particular, to assimilate into the American culture. And then she ended up moving from her front porch to storefront to eventually getting a House at 2749 Woodhill, which is still there, which is called East End Neighborhood House. Where I ended up becoming executive director in 1981. An East End Neighborhood House. At that time, the mission was to provide services to the two most oppressed segments of the population, with those that are in the dawn of life and those that are in the dusk of life being children and seniors. So the two anchor programs at that time at East End Neighborhood House was the child daycare and a senior daycare. And those were the first two fairly funded programs back during the 70s that East End Neighborhood House received. But East End Neighborhood House was a majority. Well, was up until the time that I became director in 1980. During the late 70s, the Buckeye Woodland area, which was predominantly from early, from 1903 up to the 70s, was predominantly Hungarian and Italian neighborhood. [01:04:48] And the services that they provided at Eastern Neighborhood at that time were to those ethnic groups. African Americans didn’t start moving into the Buckeye Woodland area to when I came there at that time, the board of directors was majority white. And African Americans in the community were making it known that they wanted to be represented on the board. So I Came in during a transitional period as far as the board and as far as the services too, for the African American community. One thing that was unique at the time that I came into and right before was the buckeye woodland area was unique because it was the first community congress in the United States was in the buckeye woodland community and community congress. The community congress was made up of street clubs and coming together to form this community congress to ask for rights, their rights as it related to housing, as it related to health services. So they were very strong as far as. And it was majority white ethnic folks, Hungarians, eastern Europe, other eastern and southern Europeans, as well as a minority of African Americans that were part of that community congress. [01:06:23] They proved to be very successful. They were a lot of the organizing was through Catholics. They had a very strong community organizing component at that time where they took on corporate Cleveland as far as making demands, certain rights and services as it related to health and social services, you know, within the area. [01:06:53] So again, East End neighborhood house is very important as far as child day care services, senior daycare services, and then the many services that I ended up bringing there When I came aboard. As executive director, I put a big emphasis because of the emphasis during the earlier days because of the community being eastern European and southern European. Culture was very important to them as far as them continuing services by hiring Hungarian and Italian speaking staff and recognizing the different holidays and celebrations of the culture of the community that they were serving. So I did the same thing relative to the African American community. Ended up becoming the majority community during the period of time I was at east end neighborhood house. Putting a big emphasis on the culture of the individuals that I was providing services for. You know, like black history month. Coming up with the idea for rites of passage. Using rites of passage for human development and socialization of young boys and young girls into adulthood. Foster grandparent program that I brought on board, you know, while I was there. The community resource center that we developed the emphasis on youth program. At that particular time that I was there, There was a youth game gang that was in the community that was organized in the public housing community that was in the east end area at that time. So providing services to try to curtail the activities of that particular youth gang. Gang in particular was called the dynamite devil, which was gained a start in the buckeye woodland community that spread it around the great. The greater Cleveland area. I was very successful in, you know, working with them and providing services for them.

Nick Mays [01:09:12] You retired from the East End?

Paul Hill [01:09:15] Yes, I retired from East End Neighborhood House and well as because I was president, started as an executive director. Then we changed over to a corporate model where the executive director position was changed to CEO president. So I was a CEO president. So I retired as the CEO of East End Neighborhood House in 2011 and I continued as the president for three more years. So I retired as the president of East End Neighborhood House in 2014.

Nick Mays [01:09:50] What would you say is your legacy at East End?

Paul Hill [01:09:57] When I think of East End Neighborhood House, I think my legacy was first of all to sustain and maintain the services for children through the child daycare program, institution building as related to that and for the senior daycare program; and adding onto that for the youth services, the family services, the emphasis on culture and history relative to the majority population being African American. I take great pride in as far as the renovations that I was able to make at East End Neighborhood House because during the period of time I was there, it was the 100th anniversary and we had a infrastructure development capital improvement campaign that proved to be very successful where I was able to renovate the existing house itself. And then we had. I was able to seek funding biennium funding from the state of Ohio. At the time, Jane Campbell was our representative of money’s working with her at the state level of $800,000 and then getting a $600,000 Kresge foundation grant. So it was a $1.4 million that we got. I was able to secure along with other small or minor funding to build a new child daycare wing. And that child daycare wing was connected by a lobby. And in that lobby we we had a computer lab that was part of that, a community room and some offices. So I really take pride in that. And then the actual daycare itself. Working with Calvin Singleton, who was the architect, to give it a African motif where the top of it was a lit pyramid that’s lit at night pyramid, which is representative of Kemet Nile Valley civilization and all that history that relates to us being representative of all that strong history and culture. And as well as putting a kente cloth, a kente cloth strip around the outside of the building. So really take. Take pride in that. Also take pride in when I came to Eastern Neighborhood House, there wasn’t a retirement program. So we were able to get a retirement program for staff. The benefit program that we changed over into a 401k which we had matching funds for 4% matching funds for those staff that participated in that. And also take pride in the benefit program that we had where most organization nonprofits weren’t able to provide hospitalization maybe at a 40 or 40%, 40 or 50% level. We provided 80% health insurance for the staff. Take pride in that. And also never missing a payroll at East End. It may sound kind of peculiar to folks, but during my 30 years we never missed a payroll at East End Neighborhood House. And I attribute that to my background in business administration and in counting, you know, that, that being very important then. So I feel good about the Institution building, the maintaining and sustaining the anchor programs in the area of child daycare and senior daycare and then adding other services and then acquiring property in East End neighborhood. The East End Neighborhood house on the corner there was a Edwolf Saab dealership. They were able to acquire that property. We were going to build transitional housing for males there and then some other property. We were going to do a transitional housing for females. But we wasn’t able to, you know, accomplish that, even though we did make a pursuit to try to try to do that. So feel really good about what I was able to accomplish during that period of time. 30 years. And also being the first African American male director at East End Neighborhood House during his history. And the second African American male director, the first African American male executive director. She was there for three years. Marjorie Hall-Ellis, she was just there for three years and I was there for 30 years. So being the longest serving executive director at East End Neighborhood House and the second longest serving director of a Neighborhood house settlement house in Cleveland behind [inaudible] Jerry Burns. [01:14:57] She was there the longest as a ED of Neighborhood House Settlement House and and I was the second longest serving. So take pride in that.

Nick Mays [01:15:08] Wow. Impressive. The the [W.K.] Kellogg foundation. That was 1989 and 1982.

Paul Hill [01:15:17] Well I was, I became a kellogg fellow in 1989. That was a very competitive process. It was a national process. And I think at that time there must have been about maybe 1400 or 1500 people nationally that had applied for that fellowship. And they narrowed it down nationally to maybe about 200. And I made the second cut. And then the final ones that they offered the fellowships to were 49 from around the United States. In the 49, it was really a process program project for those that were in mid career level positions to develop more keenly their leadership skills. And some of the individuals of the 49, there were a couple college presidents. One of the participants was, he’s the president of Morgan State right. Right now. And there was a couple other college presidents at that time. There were MDs that were part of that. There were. A non profit organization, CEOs. Executive directors such as myself that were part of that. So it was a variety of individuals and leadership positions relative to the, to the private sector and the nonprofit, the nonprofit sector that were part of that in that leadership enhancement Project. So that was a three year process in which they paid for my release time to East End Neighborhood House and they made available. And there were certain activities that we were involved in, you know, on a monthly basis that we had to participate. There were different tracks, an environmental track where we went to different cities around the United States and met with mayors of different cities and looked at leadership, community, family issues and problems, meeting with successful directors of cities and private sector and the non profit sector. But we developed certain skills based on issues that we confronted and practices for resolving and solving those in different cities and communities around the United States. There was also an international track that was part of that, that we did in Santiago, Chile. So to kind of expose us to international leadership. We had a chance to meet with the president of Chile at that time and different leaders. And we also had small, there were small group sessions that we were involved in relative to our areas of interest because everyone had to develop a project plan that we had an interest in that we would focus on during that period of time. Mine was to look at male socialization and part of that looking at male socialization not only in the, in the United States, but also around the world. So I traveled over, they provided funding for me to travel over 200,000 miles to visit and do a field study as well as reviewing the literature as it related to male socialization among indigenous populations in the United States and around the world. So I spent time in New Zealand, on the north island, among the Maori. You know, I spent time in different parts of Africa, West Africa, you know, South Africa, among different groups, the Poris in Liberia and the Sandy Society for the females in the poor society, which is a rites of passage, male development and female development process. It’s been part of their culture in Liberians, early on spent time on the Zuni Pueblos in southeastern part of the United States, spent time in Cuba and also time in Brazil and the Amazon among indigenous groups there. So as a result of that experience and developing those leadership skills, I wrote a book based on those experiences, experiences called Coming of Age African American Male Rites of Passage, which was published in 1992. I finished my fellowship from 1989 to 1991. So the culmination of that was the book that I wrote that was published by African American Images out of Chicago in 1992. And a lot of what I learned as a result of the study of male socialization and the field research and review of literature, developing programs that had already started at East End start with my own family and my sons and my daughters and their friends through East End Neighborhood House even before the fellowship, but will strengthen and continue through the fellowship, through the research and strengthened that as a result of that at Kellogg Experience started off with what was called the Simba program for males in 1983 and then the Malika program for females in 1984. And it became the Simba in Malika Network, which we turned started offering to others that became aware of it around the city, then around the other cities, like in Overland, Lima, Ohio, then around the state and forming the Ohio Rites of Passage Network and then in 1993 forming the National Rites of Passage Institute. But all that was a result in a culmination of Simba in Malaika, then through the Kellogg experience, and then in 1993 with the National Rites of Pass Patches Institute, offering our services and programming and training around the United States. And then it became international in Toronto and Europe.

Nick Mays [01:21:51] So my next question is going to be what inspired you to establish the institute? And then from there I just want you to kind of talk about the accomplisments, the impact, right. I have numbers like 700 adults, 20 cities mentor 10 thousands of youth implementations and households and schools and neighborhoods.

Paul Hill [01:22:21] And I guess one of in order to talk about what inspired me, it would have to do with a paradigm change. It was always there, but paradigm development and way of thinking and doing and arriving at which a culmination of all the early experience. But arriving at my worldview, which would be which I’m going to call, you know, African centered worldview. How did I arrive there? That really got me into. That’s reflected in the practices of the book Coming of Age and NROPI and the Semba program. But really I just wanted to kind of share this. My scholarship and practice is rooted in African centered worldview. And what I mean by that is a framework that reclaims African culture, history and values as the foundation for education and human development. And this worldview affirms that education must be culturally grounded, spiritually centered and socially purposeful. And the key values, you know, really which reflect my scholarship and my practice, which I attribute to Dr. Maulana Karenga and his Kawaida theory and foundations. What comes out of that? And he’s saying that all issues relative to African Americans is a result of a cultural crisis. And in order to resolve that cultural crisis. The importance of values. Because values, if you were to look at a mountain, at the top of the mountain would be the values and below that would be standards. Because values give you standards as far as what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. And then those standards, if they’re in place, they’re strong, are reflected in the behavior, the behavior that we’re looking for that’s in our best interest as individuals, as a community or a group. So those values, and it’s interesting, this is the 60th anniversary of the Nguzo Saba, the seven principles that were provided to us by Dr. Maulana Karenga. He came up with these values in 1965. So this is the 60th anniversary that we’re celebrating, that we’ll be celebrating here in Cleveland through the Greater Cleveland Quantum alliance, which comes under the National Rights of Passion Institute, which was co founded by myself and my wife, Marquita Hill, and the Greater Cleveland Kwame alliance, which was co founded by myself, Marquita Hill and Doris Willis, who is no longer with us. But those values that we live by that reflect my practice and scholarship, family life and community life, those values would. The first one, which would be, you know, unity and you know, second one would be self determination, collective work and responsibility, cooperative economics, purpose, creativity, faith. And even though there was originally just seven practices, I mean seven values, Dr. Karenga and I had a conversation with them, with him about this because those are the minimum moral values that he came up with. And what we added as a result of my work with young people and working with youth gangs, you know, because a lot of issues relative to young people is around respect, the importance of respect. A lot of times in working with young people, you may hear that they used to say that I’ve been dissed, but that basically means disrespect by others, their peers or adults. [01:26:34] But respect is very important to them then when I was directly working with them and very important to them now. So we added an eighth principle. It’s called Ashima in Swahili, which means respect. So the basic principles that come out of Dr. Karenga work are the seven. But we’ve added in the eighth one, which is Fu shima. And they basically reflect living by one thing, talking about those values, understanding those values, but also incorporating those values in your family as individuals and your family or group life, which we try to adhere to and do. So the importance of the African centered worldview, as far as the foundation of my work, as far as scholarship and practice it would reflect the Ngu Saba. Of the seven principles, you know, also. Which is important as far as education. And I differentiate between education and school. You know, schooling is to prepare you for work, prepare you for employment, prepare you to make a living. Education to me, is to teach you how to think, you know, to be able to think on your own critical thinking. So there’s really, you know, a difference between the two. So education is important as far as. As it relates to this African worldview is not merely acquisition of academic knowledge. But the transmission of culture, identity and purpose. And this draws from, you know, the works of especially Carter G. Woodson in his Miseducation of the Negro, 1933, which is still timely even for today. And he’s one of my. I just love who he was, his history having, you know, dropping out of school because his father died, working in the coal mines, reading the newspaper to the coal. [01:28:40] Other coal miners while he was down there, because they couldn’t. Then him going back to school at 20, finishing his education, going to University of Chicago, then only the second African American to graduate, behind WEB Du Bois at Harvard, then going on to all the other things that he did in life at Howard University, leaving Howard University because they didn’t want to accept his scholarship and his work relative to the importance of history, African American history. And then all the work that he did when he went to Dunbar High School, which had an opportunity every year for one of our national rites of passage programming initiations at Dunbar High School, the new Dunbar High School, where he was for all those years. But Kharagi, what’s in miseducation in Negro. And also the importance of the African oral tradition, you know, and education, you know, must answer the question, you know, who we are and how we should live. That’s what education should be about, who we are and how we should live, you know, critical thinking, you know, as related, you know, you know, to that and importance relative to education, the rites of passage has to do, looking upon, you know, really the community, you know, as a classroom. And that’s what we tried to do relative to East End neighborhood house, you know, seeing the community as a classroom, important importance of that. And then, you know, through the development of the national rites of Pastors Institute, you know, demonstrating, you know, my belief that the community itself is a classroom. Every institution, be it the family, neighborhood. Church, library, cultural center, must function as a site of learning and liberation and as a site of resistance. All of them have to function as a site of learning, liberation, but also as Sites of resistance. That’s where it has to start. You know, within the family and, you know, you know, within the community itself. The importance of, you know, when you think of rites of passage, and you know, you’ve worked through rites of passage. But, you know, the development of youth through rites of passage, you know, the model defines rites of passage as a systemic process of cultural, educational, education, personal, transformation, and social responsibility. This process cultivates, we put emphasis on it, cultivating conscious, capable and compassionate adults. [01:31:25] Who employ the principle of community, accountability and purpose and incorporate those seven principles, those eight principles or values, you know, within their being, you know, within their being, you know, being very, very important. [01:31:43] So African centered education, not as a. [01:31:48] Program, but as a process. Not as a program, but as a process and a process that reflects a way of life. Those indigenous groups that I came in contact through my field study throughout the world, among the Maori people on the north island, among the Wolof people in Senegal, among the different ethnic groups throughout Liberia and Sierra Leone, Ghana, those indigenous groups in the Amazon, all their socialization, or preparing those to take their place, regeneration of the community. The process itself was what we call rites of passage is nothing more than reclaiming, which has always existed, has to be a way of life which goes beyond a program, is a process. It’s a way of life that we have moved away from. But it has to be more than just the four walls inside a school or a program or a project. Again, it has to be a way of life.

Nick Mays [01:33:03] Talk, talk about the, the manifestation of the national rites of passage or the implementation, whether it’s through homes. And maybe you could talk about your own experience, because in our, in our past conversation, you talked about how you implemented it for your own children in the household. But also thinking about just kind of nationally, how was it implemented in households or schools or after school programs or at the neighborhood level?

Paul Hill [01:33:37] Well, my own personal experience. In my familiarity with rites of passage, the semblance of it that existed within the United States really comes through. And we just lost him not too long ago. Within the last year, he was the publisher of my book Coming of Age through African American Images out of Chicago. Dr. Jawanza Kunjufu, one of the pioneers of just the work relative to African American male socialization, you know, African focused socialization for males and females through his work. But one of his first books which I became familiar with was Countering the Conspiracy to Destroy Black Males. That was one of his first of many books, and he’s written over 40 books. And again, he Just transitioned within the last. Last year. But it focused on, you know, the fourth grade syndrome. And what fourth grade syndrome is that, you know, children are cute in general up to a certain age, but African Americans in particular, African American males in particular. But it seemed like there’s a phenomenon, you know, they’re cute as long as they’re small and kindergartners, first grade, second grade. But it seems like when they reach that fourth grade, that’s when they. Black males have always. And males of color have always been threatening to the majority population, black males in particular. And relative to these stereotypes, these myths, hypersexual even looking at the way that males of color, black and brown, especially black, doing enslavement and always this fear of black men, you know, wanting white women, but, you know, the lynching of them and the castrating of them, always based on just, you know, you know, just myths. Even studies have been done within the last five years of service providers, policemen in particular. You know, when shown images of white children versus black children, there’s this at an unconscious and conscious level, this fear. Even of children, White children versus black children, black boys versus white. There’s been some research and study on that, how they’re looked upon as, you know, fearfully. You know, a good example of that would be. And there’s a play out now that Tamir Rice’s mother and Terence Spivey, as a platist on the west side to deal with Tamir rice, him at 12 years of age, you know, being policemen, coming up to him, being threatened by him and, you know, shooting him. But other examples of children that have been kill, black male children in particular. So based on that, my emphasis was relative to right to passage, focused on the African American males initially and my own male children, my two sons and their friends, and then taking it to East End neighborhood house and then my daughter saying, well, “what about us? What about us? We turn into women. How are we going to turn into women?” Have this special programming for the boys, but how about the girls?" And then, you know, this is a conversation that Juwanjufu and I had, you know, him being one of my inspires as far as male rites of passage and rites of passage in general. He had a saying that male children are raised, are loved by their mothers while the girls are raised by their mothers. That there’s more of an emphasis on raising daughters and loving boys and not preparing boys for what they’re going to experience in there. But again, rites of passage, even though starting out with the males initially we ended up Incorporating women also, because it’s important for them being severed halves of the whole. And we only come together as a union when we bring males and females together. So shifting from just males, focusing on them to doing male and female rites of passage, preparing them, you know, for adulthood. But a lot of that I attribute to in doing work during the early days with Jawan, the Kanjufu, one of the first National Rites of Passage Conference district that we had for the Seminole Lakers was in East Cleveland at the East Cleveland YWCA. And that was back in, I think, 19. I think that was 1987. But again, we could come back to that point where East Cleveland is important to Rites of Passages, because that’s where we really started, and that’s where it’s headquartered now.

Nick Mays [01:39:09] What about the data. That the National Rites of Passage Institute trained 700 adults in multiple cities? 10,000, 10 thousands of youth benefited from that. In other words, what is. What has been, even at a 30,000 feet, what has been the impact of this?

Paul Hill [01:39:43] With all the Rites of Passage programming. That we’ve done over the years, it’s always been important to me to assess that relative to the objectives and the goals. So we’ve used a variety of evaluators, you know, over the years from Case Western Reserve School of social work from NYU, you know, Dr. Rod Watts, Dr. Deborah Weinstein, Dr. David Miller from Case Western Reserve. But there’s a number of them, so we have done the kellogg foundation, also Dr. Reginald Clark, Dr. Hazel Simonette from University of Wisconsin. We’ve used them so we have the hard data to show our shortcomings, to show our strengths and what we have accomplished. There was some research that was done, and his name escapes me right now. It had come to me. He was from Case Western Reserve University School of Social Work. They did a random sampling of individuals that went through our training, and some of them were already working with young people. And they went back and incorporated the rights of path process. So he was able to do an assessment and random sampling. And that’s where we came up with a number of young people that have been, that we have trained from the various zip codes throughout the United States. Their influence and impact on that nine to 10,000 young people throughout the United States, based on his assessment and his sampling of information, which I’ll share with you. You know, how he. How he did that and he arrived at that.

Nick Mays [01:41:50] How is it? I’m trying my best not to call it a program, but the way I think about it is programming. I know you Said it’s a process. How is it implemented? Is it a 14 week. You know. Is it a 10 week summer camp thing? Is it? Or is it a curricula that’s implemented through schools?

Paul Hill [01:42:19] A specific example is where we ended up working with the Cleveland public school system, their career, career development and vocational program to. Pat Pronte and John Perrin. And again, we work through their employment development and vocational services program. So we developed a curriculum in partnership. It was called the Journey Project. And we ended up developing the curriculum that was based on the Nguzu Saba, the seven principles of the Nguzu Saba. So each of the principles such as unity, self determination, creative work and responsibility, purpose, creativity, faith. For each of those principles, we develop goals and subject objectives and activities as related to standards and competencies that are required by the Ohio Department of Education. So we did this specifically as related to employment training, you know, through the Cleveland public school district, with Pat Prunty at that time, career development and vocational training. So we developed this curriculum and what we ended up doing also starting off with training teachers and assistant principals and principals on the rites of passage process and the curriculum itself, as well as identifying volunteers that would work with teachers and assist teachers within a school setting. So we start off with a demonstration project with four schools within the Cleveland public school system. We expanded it eventually to 11, you know, and so we had the curriculum itself that were taught in classes, identified classes through identified teachers and administrators that had been. Had been trained, and then had an evaluator to assess were we able to accomplish the goals and. And the objectives that were set out, you know, within the curriculum. So, you know, there were again, elders and there were intergenerational tasks as far as identifying training elders who were teachers and administrators as well as mentors also. And then we develop, you know, the ritual structure itself, you know, the orientation of the adults and the kids, you know, through the curriculum, you know, culminating activities that we had during the school year, at the end of the school year when we came together, you know, when we look at just the institutional embedded, we, you know, integrate, you know, relative to schedule, staffing, assessment and celebration into the host organization’s calendar and budget. Being the Cleveland public school system, you know, there were clear standards and public affirmation that were recognized through the ceremonies that we had during the school year and after the school year. So we proved to be very successful. While working with the Cleveland public schools. I guess the question is whether it is still existing. Was it continued? If not, what happened? So what happened was two things. One of it had to do with one thing with public schools, starting at the federal level, state level. I mean, it’s always the color of the day. What’s in favor. So during that particular time, it was what was called no Child Left Behind. So there was a changing of emphasis. On standardized testing as opposed to looking at the emphasis on social development, cultural development, relative. That’s connected with school achievement relative to how students feel about themselves, relative to who they are, relative to the ethnic group or cultural group and their history. So the baby was thrown out with the bathwater. And Another challenge that ended up not being continued. The rights of patches in the Cleveland public schools was the school system being taken over. It changed from an independent school, independent School system to a dependent school system where it was taken over by the city of Cleveland at that time. That was Mayor White and then Barbara Bird Bennett. So it was discontinued because of the emphasis and where the funding was coming from relative to leave no Child Left Behind.

Nick Mays Another example that you provided me off air, and I’m wondering if you could talk about it, is the implementation of this. Of this. I’ll just use a generic word of this program. Excuse me. At the. With the Department of Corrections. Can you speak?

Paul Hill [01:47:45] Oh, okay. We have implemented one of them. And we’ll come back to the Department of Corrections for the state of Ohio, but also following up the Cleveland public school systems where we embedded, you know, through the Vocational Education and Career Development Department, Rites of passage. We also had a contract where my wife and I developed the program and process with the Cuyahoga County Department of Children and Family Services. And it was for their young people that were in independent living. They were getting ready to be emancipated. When you reach the age of 18, when you’re in foster care, in group homes, when you reach the age of 18, I think they change the age now to 21, but 18 at that time, being emancipated. We were preparing them for this emancipation relative. Because it really wasn’t rites of passage. But an outshoot of rites of passage was adulthood development, which we called it. But we used the right to pass this process. So we did that. And that was. We were very successful with that in Cuyahoga county through the Department of Children and Family Services with Barbara Galloway, who was the head of that department. You know, at that time, Vera Hughes was one of the workers, and many other workers, Julius Simmons. And we had a lot of good People that were part of that. And that was replicated at the state level, you know, throughout the state of Ohio through the Department of Children and Family, you know, family services, not only among African American young people, but also they even had in Appalachia, in Appalachian Appalachia, southeastern part of Ohio, that focused on their culture. So it was very, very successful. And then again, the emphasis, you know.The funding emphasis, the administrative, when there Was a change in administration, and it’s really a problem just with leadership, period. Again, the baby being thrown out with the bathwater. Then there was some concern about that, you know, because of rites of passage. Some people saw it as, you know, the emphasis on spiritual development, which is different than religion. They got the two confused. We do something as part of rites of passage called libation, and that’s given recognition to pharaohs, I mean, forebearers and ancestors that come from us just recognizing them through a ceremony. But it has nothing to do with religion whatsoever. But there was a confusion among it being religious, which it wasn’t in. You know, they finally made that determination it wasn’t religious, that it was cultural and historical, again being de Emphasized. Then there was our. Where we. I was contacted in 1993 by inmates at the Grafton Correctional Institution, which is in Grafton, Ohio, where they had read my book Coming of Age, because it seemed like the two audiences that really read my book on rites of passage were those that were in the service, African Americans that were in the service, and those that were incarcerated. So these individuals had read the book. They were very excited about Rites of Passage, you know, the foundations of it as well as the practice of it, that they had got in contact with the administration at the prison Grafton. It was a medium security prison. And then they asked me to come in and contracted with me to do it for one year. So there were 28 individuals that I worked with in that first year. We had an actual program where we went into the prison and did the program activities with the goals and objectives. There were some things that we couldn’t do that we had to be very creative, using one of the values of quantum to be very creative. But we were very successful. And it continued for that one year. At the end of the one year. When it was over and my contract was up, then they said, well, usually when they contract with someone to come in after they’re finished the contract, even if it’s a good program and we really like it, once it’s over, then they leave and we don’t see them again. So I really enjoyed working with the guys and I enjoyed the program, so I said, as long as I breathe, I will continue volunteering with you in. Whatever form or fashion to continue what we’re doing until the last one is parole. So that was 1993, and I just Was involved in a parole hearing for the last of the 28. The second of the last was parole, which I was involved in in April of 2025, which was. Was William Perryman, Nick Perryman, he was paroled after being in prison for over 50 years. And Duane Farrell, I was just involved in his parole hearing and testified on November 6th, my 80th birthday. And I found out that day, at the end of the day, that he was paroled, and he would be paroled January 6th. And so, you know, it’s mission accomplished. We were with them for 31 years in some form or fashion, and they ended up developing out of their right to passage, the experience called Brothers Keepers, not related to Obama’s not taking anything away, but they developed that before he developed his Brother’s Keepers program, which I served as an advisor with over that period of time. But they wanted to develop something that would continue what I had started with them for other inmates that were there and that were incoming inmates to ready them for reentry as fathers and uncles and grandfathers when they go back to their families and their community. So I take pride in that. If there’s anything that really makes me feel good about this work, from public housing to government work to higher education, through the school district, through the county programming, it would be my work within the correction institution. You know, with these children, 28 individuals, some of them have passed. Most of them are out doing very well and have successfully been, I don’t want to call rehabilitated, but transformed. All they needed was an opportunity. They had what it took. And rights of Passage was the process that brought about this transformation that continues to this day.

Nick Mays [01:55:20] Wow. Mr. Hill, congratulations and thank you for your work. I want to pivot before we end and talk about East Cleveland history, challenges, revitalization. My first question would be, how did you and I think your wife implement the National Rites of Passage Institute in East Cleveland, and how did that come about?

Paul Hill [01:55:59] Well, East Cleveland, again, where we moved to from Shaker Heights and wherever we’re going to be, you know, relative to family. The importance of family to us is always the importance, you know, of community. Whatever community we live in, taken up from much, receives much, has to be given back and vice versa. So family, community being important to us, Rites of Passage, being a human development process for preparing our children and other children for adulthood. And part of that preparation for adulthood as it relates to those four seasons of life, you know, childhood, which is the spring of life. Then you’re talking about summer, you know, as a adults. Then you talk about the fall of life, and then you talk about the winter of life. And it’s ironic that we’re sitting here and we’re talking about this process and those seasons of life and talking about, to me, a culmination of my work, scholarship and practice. November 6th being my 80th birthday and the last individuals of the 28th birthday being paroled, and I’m sitting there testifying at the parole hearing. So at 80, to answer your question, indirectly, I find myself in what I call the fifth season of life. The first four seasons of my life, and it reflects the process itself, were filled with discovery, striving and institution building. The season, fifth season of the life which I’m in and many of us are in, a lot of my peers that I’m losing is about reflection, regeneration, and the transfer of legacy. It’s about understanding what the journey has taught. And how that knowledge can serve those who continue the work. So after more than 30 years of nonprofit leadership and services to family and youth, particularly the East End Neighborhood House and the National Rights and Passages Institute, I offer the following lessons learned as. Frantz Fanon said, or remind us who I named one of my sons after Frantz Fanon. My wife and I, one of our heroes, he said. [01:59:09] Each generation must, out of relative obscurity, discover its mission, fulfill it, or portray it. These reflections are born out of that mission to serve families, nurture youth, and to build institutions that sustain community life. So lesson one, to kind of answer your question, lesson one is ground the work in family, community and culture Youth do not exist, and we do not exist in isolation. They live in families, communities and cultures that shape their sense of self. So effective service begins with understanding those contexts. Early in my leadership at East End Neighborhood House, I learned that a youth Program disconnected from the family and culture is incomplete. When families are engaged, youth thrive. When culture is affirmed, identity strengthens. Through the national rites of Passage Institute, be it in Cleveland, be it in Shaker Heights, be it in East Cleveland, be it wherever. I’ve always incorporated the Afrocentric principles of the NGZ Saba rites of passage and ancestral consciousness nurtured both belonging and responsibility. Culture is not an ornament. It is a foundation. It is not a program. It is a way of life that many of us don’t understand. And we’ve moved away from. Lesson number two. Leadership is a service, and a service. Is leadership, no matter where that leadership is through me and others. One of the important components of leadership to kind of develop leaders that are Lacking today. At all systems level that. Are lacking today is understanding that leadership. Is a service and service is leadership. Nonprofit leadership is not about power, prestige or position. It is about service. Leadership means showing up for family and youth, often with limited resources but unlimited purpose. It means standing in the gap when systems fail. Leadership is the art of listening, the courage to act, and the humility to share credit. At Cleveland Heights, University , at United States Justice Department, HEW, the Office of Civil Rights, East End, wherever I witnessed staff members, community members whose quiet dedication embodied true leadership more than any title could. As James Baldwin wrote, “the purpose of education is to create in a person.” The ability to look at the world for himself. True leaders educate and empower others to see, think and act with integrity, which is so lacking in the various leadership. Levels, be it the family level, the community level, you know, the level of the city, the state, the federal government is just so lacking. And it’s reflected in the problems that we’re experiencing today. [02:02:41] Lesson 3. Build institutions, not just programs. Programs come and go. Even though Child Left behind or whatever. The color of the day is, they just; they come and they go. Institutions endure. Programs depend on grants. Institutions depend on vision, structure and commitment. One of my most important lessons was learning to strengthen the institutional spine of East End neighborhood houses as far as governance, finance and community trust. And this is not only true of East End, it has to also be true of Cleveland, East Cleveland, Washington D.C. whatever the state capital is. I mean, it’s about institutional spine, you know, as it relates to government, governance, finance and community trust so that it can serve future generations. Nonprofit leaders, private sector leaders, elected and appointed and anointed leaders must think beyond their positions and their tenure. They must leave behind something stable, relevant and ready for those to follow. Not a what some folks are just leaving at the federal level, I mean the state level, the local level, there are some good people, but there are too many people that just don’t understand some of the things that I’m sharing. Legacy is built not enough through charisma, but through structures, systems and stewardship. Lesson 4. Practice, Reflection, Research and scholarship. The worker service requires moments of reflection. It requires us to ask difficult questions. What is working? What is not? Who benefits? Who is left behind? My scholarship through the Black Child Journal and publications such as coming of age taught me that practice without reflection is blind and reflection without practice is hollow. Nonprofit work must be guided by data, cultural wisdom, and conscientious learning. Reflection turns experience into knowledge, knowledge into wisdom. Lesson 5 Embrace rites of Passage and Generational Purpose Young people thrive when they know who they are, where they come from, and what they are becoming. Rites of passage are more than ceremonies. They are processes of transformation that connect personal development to community responsibility. Through the National Rites of Passage Institute, we develop frameworks that help youth cross the threshold from adolescence to adulthood with dignity and purpose. In turn, elders are reminded that their role be it Cleveland as the mayor, the head of City Council, East Cleveland as the mayor, as the head of City Council, the president of the United States, the Senate, the Congress. Their role is to guide, affirm, and model the way a community that neglects its rights neglects its future. Lesson 6 Anchor in Equity and Historical consciousness Nonprofit service does not occur in a vacuum. The challenges facing families and youth are shaped by history, by segregation, the economic inequality, and the structural racism. My years of advocacy in East Cleveland and Cleveland inner city neighborhoods reform what that community work must confront these realities directly. We cannot serve effectively if we ignore the focus that marginalizes those we serve. To pursue equity is to pursue justice. To pursue justice is to remember history. As Baldwin reminded us, “not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced.” I think of those eight people that yesterday, you know, voted with the Republicans. You know, to go up against, you know, the Republicans and not take into consideration the health needs that we all Have at every system’s level. But to cave into that. Lesson 7 Cultivate relationships across generations and sectors. Community work is relational work. Over the decades, partnerships with schools, foundations, businesses, and neighborhood organizations provided essential. I also discovered that mentorship is reciprocal. For much that is received, much has to be given. Youth teach elders as much as elders teach youth. We don’t have a youth problem in America today. We have an adult problem Intergenerational collaboration is a hallmark of community strength. Building bridges across differences of age, sector, and perspective sustains the ecosystem of service. Lesson 8 A plan for Succession and Legacy Every leader must face the question: of what happens after me? What happens after me? Succession planning is not an afterthought. It is a responsibility. When leaders prepare others to take the mantle, they honor the institution and the mission. My transition from East End to a broader focus on nro, PI and intergenerational mentorship was not a retirement. It was a rites of passage of its own legacy is about is not about moments, monuments. It’s about continuity of purpose. And again, I repeat that legacy is not about monuments or naming stadiums after you or naming this after you. Is about continuity of purpose. Lesson 9 Be resilient, adaptive, and Mission Driven the nonprofit world is dynamic. Funding priorities shift, demographic change and crises arise. Resilient leaders remain adaptive without losing their moral compass. During economic downturns and policy upheavals, I learned that flexibility must coexist with fidelity. Mission resiliency is rooted in clarity of purpose and in community solidarity. It is nourished by faith, creativity, and the collective strength of those who believe in work. Lesson 10 Always ask and how are the children? The enduring question has guided my entire journey. It is both an evaluation and a moral imperative. When children are well, the community is well. When children are neglected, the society is sick. The question demands that every policy, program. And partnership. Be measured against the impact on the youth. It reminds us that our highest calling is to safeguard the next generation. Conclusion Entering the fifth generation with purpose the fifth generation of life invites me to reflect on distance travel and to the path ahead. It calls me to mentor, to write the shares I’m doing now to preserve the archives of our work and to ensure that the next generation inherits not just our words but our institutions. The National Rites of Passage Institute stands as one testament to that vision, a space where families and communities continue to nurture youth through culture, purpose, and identity. An African proverb teaches the child who is not embraced by the village will. Burn down to fill its warmth. [02:11:03] The child who is embraced by the village will burn it down to fill its warmth. These words remain urgent. Our work now, as ever, is to make every child feel the warmth of community, the embrace of heritage, and the power of purpose. As I continue this journey in my eighth decade, I remain guided by faith and by the simple but profound question that has animated my life’s work and. How are the children? That was hard.

Nick Mays [02:11:46] Well said.

Paul Hill [02:11:49] I just think of our community with that 5 year old girl and the 9 and 10 year old that violated her. I think about her. I think about them. Where did they come from, what community or what family they were brought up in? I think of the children in Gaza, the families and the women and the children. I think of the Sudan. I think of the DRC. I think of us holding the aid from Africa. And other places in the world where. Children and women are being violated against. All these people would be at East Cleveland, you know, the leaders, people that are calling themselves leaders and what we. As adults have not and are not doing. I think of the living and the unborn. But thank you for this opportunity to share and thank you for the work that y’ all are doing and capturing. These memories and lessons because a lot of us are passing on and I feel scared about some of us that are passing on. I think of my mentors, my mother, my father, Mussini Perkins, Preston Wilcox, hockey, Malibuti Bonabuti, Malanga Karanga, Elder Mitchell, the Steve Boyd’s, those that are still living and Hugh people. I think of my son Fanon and my children, and your children, and all of us out there trying to attempt to do the work. So thanks.

Nick Mays [02:13:27] Thank you sir. Mr. Hill, I appreciate your, your contribution to in work for humanity, societies, East Cleveland, our world. Thank you for your contribution to this, to this project.

Paul Hill [02:13:47] I’ll leave you that last one. You could have. It took me a while to put that together, but thanks for the opportunity.

Nick Mays [02:13:57] Well, you, in your reading of this, you, you discussed or you responded to all my legacy questions. So I, I appreciate that.

Paul Hill [02:14:12] But specifically about, you know, East Cleveland Where I’m living at now. I wouldn’t want to live anywhere my, myself and my wife, you know, I, I worry about it, you know, the external forces being, be it the county, be it the state, be it some of the gatekeepers that are more motivated and driven by their interests as opposed to what’s best for the interest of all people, regardless of class or race within East Cleveland. You know, I pray for and I have hope for the existing administration through the existing mayor, Sandra Morgan, that she makes the best decisions that her decisions and reflects the will of the people and what is needed in the best interest of East Cleveland and not give in to developers or outside pressures from governors or county commissioners or who else that she be her own person and does what needed and necessary. East Cleveland, the legacy of East Cleveland is, and it’s at a fork in the road where it’s going to exist whole or it’s going to continue to exist. You know, incomplete, but it has to be and reflect the will and accountability of the people that live in East Cleveland. 

Nick Mays Wow. Well said.

Paul Hill And I want to thank the East Cleveland Public Library because that’s one of the, you know, under the administration of the present leadership. Carlos.

Nick Mays [02:15:59] Carlos Latimere.

Paul Hill [02:15:59] Yeah, Latimere. I had the utmost respect for him and Ross Cockfield is the shining star. And you know, under their leadership and with the board that they have there, they represent the future, you know, so I’m glad these, these will be stored in the archives. You know, what comes out of this and you’re working with them and they referred you to myself, my wife, and others that you are, you are interviewing. So they are a light at the end of the tunnel. They are the light so far.

Nick Mays [02:16:35] Amazing conversation. I’ve just sitting down here in the last 2 hours and 22 minutes. I am much smarter than I was when I walked in. Again, thank you, sir. Thank you for all of your work and all of your being and all of your contribution. And I truly am honored and appreciate you supporting and contributing to this project.

Paul Hill [02:17:05] Thank you. Thank you.

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