Abstract

Sharon and Roger Judson are a married couple who have been involved in the Cuyahoga Valley since the 1980s. Roger was one of the earliest volunteers for the Cuyahoga Valley National Recreation and Sharon co-pioneered the Cuyahoga Valley's modern volunteer programs, including Trail Blazers and Adopt a Trail. In this oral history, Roger discusses volunteers organizing the 1980s folk festivals, visitor center volunteering in the 1970s, working with Gayle Hazlewood and the Environmental Education Center camping/backpacking program. Sharon focuses on her job as a volunteer manager. She served this role for fifteen years. They also discuss the successes and challenges within the National Park Service.

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Interviewee

Judson, Sharon (interviewee); Judson, Roger (interviewee)

Interviewer

Jones Macko, Rebecca (interviewer); Schnack, Erich (participant)

Project

Cuyahoga Valley National Park

Date

10-31-2023

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

56 minutes

Transcript

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:00:01] It is October 31, 2023, and I, Rebecca Jones. I’m here today with Sharon and Roger Judson. And doing tech today is Erich Schnack. So I’m going to start with you, Sharon. So, can we ask, what is your full name?

Sharon Judson [00:00:23] Sharon M. Judson.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:00:25] All right, so what year, about, were you born?

Sharon Judson [00:00:31] 1950.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:00:33] And where did you grow up?

Sharon Judson [00:00:35] In Cleveland. The West Side.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:00:40] The West Side. So can you tell us about your family growing up?

Sharon Judson [00:00:49] I was born in the projects, the government projects where Malley’s Candy is. So, because my father was in the war and he, and they didn’t have enough housing for them, so we were in the projects for a while and then I have a sister and a brother.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:01:16] Okay. And the reason is- So what were your outdoor experiences and your hobbies growing up?

Sharon Judson [00:01:23] Well, we used to go on hikes in the park, in the Cleveland Metroparks. We went to the museums and went to church and school. Of course, that’s about it. 

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:01:40] So what kind of jobs did you have when you were young, younger?

Sharon Judson [00:01:47] I was a- I delivered newspapers as a kid and I helped in the church, set up equipment and that as a kid. That’s about it.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:02:09] The reason we’re asking the questions is- So what prepared you for working in Cuyahoga Valley? How did you get to working here?

Sharon Judson [00:02:24] That’s a complicated story. [laughs] My husband volunteered in the park ever since we moved to Richfield, and it was in 1981, I believe. 

Roger Judson [00:02:33] ’80. 

Sharon Judson [00:02:34] So he was one of the first main volunteers in the park at Happy Days Visitor Center, and he got myself and my children involved in the folk festival. So we used to help the children do crafts and that. So that’s how we started.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:02:59] So it’s all Roger’s fault?

Sharon Judson [00:03:01] Yes.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:03:02] So if it’s all Roger’s fault, how did you meet Roger?

Sharon Judson [00:03:07] In a church youth group.

webecca Jones Macko [00:03:11] So what year did you decide that this guy was the one? What year Were you married?

Roger Judson [00:03:17] ’71.

Sharon Judson [00:03:18] 1971. You were barely old enough to [CHECK]

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:03:25] get married.

Sharon Judson [00:03:26] I was 21 at the time.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:03:28] That’s legal, I guess.

Sharon Judson [00:03:29] Yeah.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:03:31] So that brings us to Roger. So what is your full name?

Roger Judson [00:03:35] Roger Lee Judson.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:03:37] And what year about were you born?

Roger Judson [00:03:38] 1949.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:03:40] And where did you grow up?

Roger Judson [00:03:42] I was born in Zanesville, Ohio. But when I was, I think 10, we moved to Cleveland and I’ve been in Cleveland ever since.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:03:49] West Side also?

Roger Judson [00:03:50] West Side.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:03:53] So can you tell us about your family growing up?

Roger Judson [00:03:56] Well, I was always more comfortable in the woods than I was at home or anywhere else. Whenever things got tough at home, I would head for the woods. [laughs]

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:04:07] So what were your outdoor experiences and hobbies then growing up?

Roger Judson [00:04:10] Oh, when I was young, I was just running around in the woods. I didn’t have any one particular interest or species that I was looking into. I was just outside.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:04:20] I can understand that. So what kind of jobs did you have when you were younger?

Roger Judson [00:04:26] Well, let’s see, I started as a draftsman and then moved into engineering and then project management. And my last position was with a trade association.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:04:40] So how did that prepare you to work in Cuyahoga Valley? How did you come to be working or volunteering?

Roger Judson [00:04:48] Well, when we first moved here in 1980, I was coming across 303 and stopped in at Happy Days and met Phil Hastings, who was the volunteer coordinator at the time. And I worked with him coordinating the first folk festival that we had and moved on from there.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:05:05] And that was-

Roger Judson [00:05:07] 1980. 

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:05:08] Oh, in 1980. So you both started in 1980? Volunteering?

Roger Judson [00:05:16] I started volunteering in 1980. She was later.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:05:19] Okay, so the first roles that you had were volunteering at the folk festival?

Roger Judson [00:05:23] Yes, I helped Phil coordinate all the volunteers, where they were going and what they were doing and stuff like that.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:05:30] Wow. What was the attendance on the folk festival?

Roger Judson [00:05:34] It was about 10,000 people a day over a three-day period.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:05:38] How many volunteers were you using?

Roger Judson [00:05:40] Oh, over a hundred. It took a small army of people to pull that off. We had the folk festival, the National Folk festival was there for 10 years, I believe, and then the Park Service did its own for another eight or nine after that.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:05:58] So what do you both remember about the 1970s and 1980s when the national park was getting established?

Roger Judson [00:06:07] Well, I was working in the visitor center then. I wasn’t employed by the park at that time, but there were still people coming in complaining profusely about how the park was acquiring properties and how we were so heavy-handed. So I learned a lot of patience. [laughs]

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:06:26] So were you involved in any of that early activism, promoting the park?

Roger Judson [00:06:32] Activism? Other than just volunteering at the visitor center, no.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:06:39] Okay. So when you first came in, Phil Hastings was the volunteer coordinator.

Roger Judson [00:06:51] Yes.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:06:53] So, was he the first volunteer coordinator?

Roger Judson [00:06:56] I believe so. I was volunteer number 21.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:07:01] Okay, so if he was the first, so what was that volunteer program like in the early years?

Roger Judson [00:07:12] It was very disjointed. Phil was trying to figure out- I don’t know whether that was his full-time position or it was just kind of an adjunct for him, but-

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:07:21] Do you remember what work group or division he was in?

Roger Judson [00:07:24] I assumed it was interim.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:07:26] I don’t know. 

Roger Judson [00:07:27] Yeah, I don’t know either.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:07:31] So do you remember some of the key people in the park at that time? 

Roger Judson [00:07:40] At that time. 

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:07:41] Who was the superintendent?

Roger Judson [00:07:42] Debo.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:07:44] Well, he got here in ’89.

Roger Judson [00:07:47] No, then- Okay, then it had to have been- What was his name? Shoot, I’m sorry, I can’t remember.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:07:55] Was it still Lou Albright?

Roger Judson [00:07:57] Might have been Albright? 

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:07:59] Or the one after him? 

Erich Schnack [00:08:03] Birdsell?

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:08:04] Birdsell was first. 

Roger Judson [00:08:05] Birdsell was first. He was the heavy-handed person.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:08:09] Yes. So, like, do you have any memories of people like Gail Hazel?

Roger Judson [00:08:12] Oh, yeah, Gail Hazel and I really clicked. I attended the first winter camping program and backpacking program and then grew into, with six other guys, teaching both winter camping, backpacking, and flatwater canoeing.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:08:28] So what was Gail’s role with that?

Roger Judson [00:08:29] Gail’s role was- She was- She kind of ran afield for us. She pretty much let us do whatever we wanted to do and made sure that we stayed within the rules and all that kind of stuff. But we ran the program.

Sharon Judson [00:08:44] She ran the recreation program.

Roger Judson [00:08:47] Right. She was the rec spec, I think, recreation specialist.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:08:51] So any early memories of Peg Bobel?

Roger Judson [00:08:53] Oh, yeah, Peg Bobel was there. She was- I forget what the organization was called at that time.

Sharon Judson [00:09:00] Cuyahoga Valley Association.

Roger Judson [00:09:02] That’s right, Cuyahoga Valley Association.

Sharon Judson [00:09:03] She was the executive director. And she and I ran the March for Parks a long time ago. Did the logistics and that. And the Cuyahoga Valley Festival. Well, first it was a national festival, then it was a Cuyahoga Valley Festival. Was really, really popular. And she of course ran the groups that took the money and things like that. And of course the volunteers increased over the years.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:09:39] Other people? John Reynolds?

Roger Judson [00:09:42] Yeah, he was the music guy. He did a lot of the interviews of the prospective people who were coming to perform. And kind of the technical guy.

Sharon Judson [00:09:52] He ran the whole program.

Roger Judson [00:09:53] Yeah, that’s right.

Sharon Judson [00:09:54] He got the musicians and that. Richard Vasquez was your first?

Roger Judson [00:10:01] Oh, yeah, he was my supervisor.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:10:03] Vasquez! Oh, my!

Sharon Judson [00:10:04] Happy Days. 

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:10:08] I haven’t heard that name in a long time.

Roger Judson [00:10:10] Yeah. He was very encouraging. He helped me do the 171 when I got hired and kind of mentored me along.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:10:19] We’re gonna get to that. So still with the volunteer groups, what do you remember about some of the various volunteer groups like Cuyahoga Valley Trails Council?

Roger Judson [00:10:30] I was on Trails Council for 10 or 11 years, maybe longer. And we-

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:10:34] And was it already established when you joined?

Roger Judson [00:10:38] They were just getting established.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:10:39] So that was 1981, ’82?

Roger Judson [00:10:41] Early ’80s, yeah. And we planned the trails and cut the trails and did a lot of maintenance on them.

Sharon Judson [00:10:48] Well, Peg and Rob Bobel were very instrumental with the Trails Council. In fact, before the Trails Council came to be, they were on the committee to determine, to help determine what trails there were out there, which ones were worth working on. And so they helped with a trail plan, I think they called it.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:11:15] Yeah, first trail plan.

Sharon Judson [00:11:16] Yeah. And then they started the Cuyahoga Valley Trails Council. You have to understand that when the park first came to be, a lot of people don’t understand, nothing is established.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:11:32] Yeah. There’s nothing in place.

Sharon Judson [00:11:33] So they increased the number of employees and volunteers to go out there and check things out and to learn how to develop the park in a way that they interpreted what was here.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:11:52] So with that trails thing, did you work with Adopt a Trail?

Roger Judson [00:11:57] She started Adopt a Trail.

Sharon Judson [00:11:59] I didn’t start it. It was started by the Cuyahoga Valley Trails Council. But we enhanced the program by working with a group of volunteers. Dave Bergen, Dave Herbster. Oh boy. I can’t remember all of the people on the committee, but we went to the National Park Foundation and got a grant to help develop the program further. So we. Our goal was to have a dedicated group of volunteers, especially a leader, for each trail. And they went out once a month and checked the trail out. We took pictures. We used the GIS person, Geographic Information System person, to determine where the culverts were and everything. So they didn’t go out there blinded. You know, they knew exactly where the features were. If a culvert collapsed or something, they knew where it should be and marked it out for the maintenance guys to go out there and fix it, or they fixed it themselves, depending on materials and stuff. Yeah. So it became a lot stronger program with our direction.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:13:24] So continuing with that trail idea, then there’s Trailblazers. How did that get started? What can you tell me about that one?

Sharon Judson [00:13:33] Oh, my gosh. That- That was awesome, you know, and still exists today. It was- It was founded by Mosey Welch, Dana Smith, Bill Trentle[?], who represented the Akron Bicycle Club. We wanted to have an outside person outside of the park and myself. And it was a whole different aspect to volunteerism in the park. We recruited. It was very, very popular. We knew it was going to be. And that was, of course, after we opened the Towpath Trail.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:14:19] So this would have been after 1993?

Sharon Judson [00:14:22] Sounds about right. But there were a lot of people out there. Bicyclists, hike people, people with dogs and strollers. So really, we needed some organization out there, some park presence to help people and to answer questions and that. So anyway, we recruited for it, had a big response. We interviewed each one of them. We selected not only the people that would be good to represent us, but also had a little bit of maybe bike maintenance or first-aid experience. And also we looked at males and females, young people, older people, young know. We wanted to represent the people that were out there using the trail so that people would feel comfortable asking questions. Bill Trentle designed the Trailblazer uniform. It was totally different, outside of the fact it had volunteer emblem on it. But they had yellow coverings, covering for the helmet. And therefore sometimes they were called the lemonheads. [laughs] But they were bright, bright uniforms so people could recognize. That’s where they get information. We had at least a 40-hour training program with them that taught them first aid because people between the locks and the main features might get into trouble, you know. And so we wanted people out there that knew how to repair, quick bike repairs, and of course, information about the park. Dana Smith represented the interpretation side of things, and that’s why we chose her. And I, of course, had some expertise in volunteerism and how to ask questions and that. And Mosey[?] became the main person, of course, because she was law enforcement and she was out of communication center. And that’s where we had their equipment there. And we got a grant for that too. It was patterned after, I believe it was Santa Monica. I asked for their- They already had a hike and bike patrol, so I asked them for their manual and it was kind of patterned after that. And of course, you know, we added to it because it was- It’s the Midwest region, it’s not California.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:17:18] Yeah, this is a different- Yeah, yeah, you may be out in winter, you’ve got water features.

Sharon Judson [00:17:23] Right. And- Yeah, so. And we also required the volunteers after putting 40 hours of training into it, radio communication, there was so much- But we required them to give a certain amount of hours every month because we needed people out there, you know, for this, and that’s why we developed the program. And I believe it’s still running today.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:17:53] It is. The last time I saw them, but that doesn’t mean anything because last time I saw them was two weeks ago. They set up a safety stop to talk about speed and valuables and staying safe in the park kind of thing. So they were out doing- That’s not true. I saw them last week because I teased one of them about the lemonhead. Yes, so it’s still there. So River Day. Tell us about River Day.

Sharon Judson [00:18:30] River Day was the big cleanup day where we invited the public to come and clean up different areas in the park. We would have park rangers and volunteers recommend different sites in the park. And of course, when the park first became a park - or a recreation area - it had dump sites, it had hazardous sites. There was a lot to clean up. And so we had the employees recommend sites, and then we send the volunteers out there. I changed the program because we found out some of the garbage was still left out there and not picked up. So we went in there, and I had the Trails Council become the trails leaders out there. They’d take a group out there, we’d train them, and they’d look at the site ahead of time so they knew what they were going to handle. We had volunteers that would just want to go to the sites where there was an old car carcass out there, and they’d want to lift it up on their shoulders and bring it up out of the ravine because somebody, you know, just put it down there. These people were just- They wanted to be in the park and they want to give back. And that is one of the biggest reasons that people volunteer.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:20:14] So when was the first River Day? Do you remember? Was that before your time?

Sharon Judson [00:20:19] I think it might have been. Richard Vasquez had it for quite a few years.

Erich Schnack [00:20:28] I know it was during John Debo’s time here because Elaine Marsh described working with Debo on the first River Day.

Sharon Judson [00:20:35] Yeah, yeah. [inaudible]

Roger Judson [00:20:38] She talks about that in the video.

Sharon Judson [00:20:39] She was on the committee with us, of course, because she originated Friends of the Crooked River. Yeah. And sometimes we would have displays of hers how everything wound up in the river valley and that. So that they would get educated when they came to sign up to volunteer.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:21:02] They use that very same thing that- Yeah, it’s a river valley, the lowest point. Here it comes. 

Sharon Judson [00:21:09] We also have the Trailblazers. We got permission for them to use the maintenance trucks. And they would go out there, and this is my purpose. You know, get the trucks out there, pick up the garbage as soon as it’s brought out and put it in a dumpster. And then the Trailblazers would take the trucks out and wash them down before they left them. So the job was complete. You know?

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:21:44] Interp trucks never get washed these days. So you’ve been involved with Cuyahoga Valley National Park for years and years and years. So I’m curious, how- What was the path to getting Sharon Judson volunteer coordinator?

Sharon Judson [00:22:07] Well, when I first started, Ron Thoman- Well, John Debo was superintendent. Ron Thoman was interpretive chief, Chief of Interpretation, Visitor Services, and Chris Schillizzi was the interpretive supervisor. And so I was under Chris. So I was mainly a clerk when I first started.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:22:38] So what made you want to apply to be a clerk in the National Park Service? How did you get there?

Sharon Judson [00:22:44] Well, I had a lot of other jobs before that besides-

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:22:47] And you were volunteering.

Sharon Judson [00:22:50] Being a mother. But I love people, you know, and I feel comfortable with them, and I can ask them things. And I was a journalist. One of the things that I was, was a journalist. So I knew how to ask questions and how to organize things in the background, being a mother. And at any rate, those really, really came into play. I was first like a clerk and then later on I became the program manager.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:23:32] And what year was that?

Sharon Judson [00:23:34] Oh, boy. I started in 1989.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:23:39] Same year as John.

Sharon Judson [00:23:40] Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people started then because they were- They were needing more employees at the time. So when I went to orientation, NPS orientation, I went to Voyageurs National Park, and a group of us went there because there were so many new volunteers. At any rate, what was your question? [laughs]

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:24:07] So through the years, what have been your duties? You were a clerk, clerk, typist, volunteer program manager.

Sharon Judson [00:24:19] And that’s what I became. So I helped. My job expanded into developing programs like the Adopt a Trail and the Trailblazer program. River’s Day, little bit about Track Checkers - that was Dave Vasarhelyi’s baby - and groups of volunteers would become friends, like the Track Checkers. The technical knowledge. People would come and they would retire and they would worry about being home and doing nothing, you know, and they’d come to my office and we’d sit down and look, what abilities do you have? And I tell them what we have available, like the Track Checkers. And they use the Geographic Information System, no, GPS, I’m sorry, positioning system, to figure out where the boundaries of the land were and what features on it. And these guys would become real friends, you know?

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:25:37] But they also became experts on the boundaries and the edges and what to watch for.

Sharon Judson [00:25:42] Absolutely.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:25:43] So that was the Track Checkers. And I didn’t realize that started under your tenure.

Sharon Judson [00:25:48] Yeah, but that was mainly Dave Vasarhelyi.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:25:52] So I was here, but I don’t remember. How long were you- Excuse me? How long were you the volunteer program manager?

Roger Judson [00:26:02] Fifteen years?

Sharon Judson [00:26:03] Yeah, I worked here 14 years. I think the year that I had to leave is 2003 or 2006.

Roger Judson [00:26:16] Okay.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:26:17] Because I knew I was here.

Sharon Judson [00:26:19] Yeah. You know, there’s another program I wanted to make sure and mention that a lot of people don’t know about, and that’s the Volunteers for Peace. It was an international volunteer program. And we were the first national park asked to do it. Barbara Polarine[?] was my supervisor at the time, and she suggested we have an archaeological dig with Jeff Richner from the Midwest Region. He used to come every year because we always had construction projects going on, and he had to make sure that we weren’t going to disturb, you know, sacred sites and that. And so we had a call go out for Volunteers for Peace. It’s still exists today. I checked it out. We had volunteers from Spain, from Belgium, from Germany, from the Czech Republic to Slovakia. They all came as individuals, and I would meet them in the airport and bring them in, and Jeff Richner would teach them how to do archaeology.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:27:50] This is news to me.

Sharon Judson [00:27:51] Yeah, it was- I organized, or tried to organize, a dinner for them the first night so that employees could come, but we didn’t have as many volunteers. I mean, there were employees come to it that they stayed at Stanford Youth Hostel at the time. So it was a really good program that didn’t cost a lot of money. We provided the food for them and that, and they cooked their own stuff and did the things on the side. But they learned and they became friends. And I still hear from some of them. So, yeah, it was a good program. 

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:28:38] How many years?

Sharon Judson [00:28:39] For two weeks. Two weeks, I should say.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:28:41] How many years did that run?

Sharon Judson [00:28:45] Maybe five years, something like that.

Roger Judson [00:28:47] It was longer than that.

Sharon Judson [00:28:48] And, you know, I just became friends with Jeff Richner on Facebook during COVID, and he just raves about the program. He just loved it so much.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:29:04] I got to work with him on one project. So what about you, Roger? You were volunteering and you’ve alluded to working. So how did you come to work for the Park Service? And you’ve had more than one hat in the Park Service. So tell us about the many positions you worked at.

Roger Judson [00:29:30] Oh, man. Well, like I say, we taught winter camping, backpacking, and flatwater canoeing. And we actually, I went to the first winter camping program and then the first backpacking program, like I say, eventually pulled together a cadre of six other guys. We wound up teaching it. And it was a really expanded program. We had required people to come to eight hours of training where they were taught everything about all the equipment they needed and all that kind of stuff. And before that, we had gotten a grant from Coleman with 50 sets of tents, backpacks, stove, sleeping bags, pads, stuff sacks, everything you need to backpack. And we offered the program to inner-city Cleveland and Akron kids. So they didn’t need to go out and spend a fortune to buy or rent all of that equipment. And it was A three-day program where they came out and backpacked for three days and got environmental education. It was an interesting program. We had occasions where the toughest kid, as soon as it got dark, would go get in the van and refuse to get out because he was scared to death that there were lions and tigers and bears out there that were going to come and eat him. I wound up having to take one kid home. It was just a total, alien environment for them. But it was eye opening in a lot of ways because it exposed them to another world that they had no idea existed. And hopefully it affected some lives positively.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:30:59] Yeah. And that program was still running when I first got to the park. So you worked with that until what year?

Roger Judson [00:31:05] I don’t remember the year, but it was almost 20 years.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:31:08] Because I know it was still in operation in 2000, 2001 or so.

Roger Judson [00:31:12] It was probably six or seven.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:31:16] Steve Oaks? Yeah, that was towards the end.

Roger Judson [00:31:18] Yeah. We would do- When we introduced the backpacking program, I developed this character of an idiot backpacker. And Gail would be up front giving the introduction to the program. And I’d come in with pots and pans banging and toilet paper dragging from my pack and I’d say, I’m here to be a backpacker. And she would say, well, you need to go to this class and I don’t need to go to any classes, I already know everything. So she would say, well, let’s see, what do you got in your pack? And so I take out an axe. Well, I’m going to cut down trees and build a big fire and I’m going to cook my beans. So I had this big industrial-size can of beans.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:31:54] Oh, you’d be fun to be around at camp after that.

Roger Judson [00:31:57] Then I take out a 12 pack of beer. Oh, no, no, you can’t have beer in the park. And I had a compass. I said, this direction of air, that’s where you go. But I had no map, I had no idea what to do. So I did all the wrong things. So finally she says, well, maybe you need to go in the back and sit and listen to the program. So that’s kind of how we introduced it. And then we taught all of the various things that they needed to know. We had over 100 people come to the first few classes and typically well over half of them would actually go on the outings. We actually had to do four weekends a month so that we minimize the impact of having big groups out. And we moved the trail around so we, again, minimized the impact for the winter camping program. We Started out using the site behind what is now the Environmental Education Center up in the pine stand. And then when the EEC came in, we had to move down to the special event site, which is Howe Meadow, and we had it there again. We would have literally over 100 people come to the program, and over half go to the actual outings.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:33:06] I remember a few of the winter camping weekends when, God bless you for being out! [laughs] It was cold and rainy or snowy, and I’m like, oh, freezing rain. Oh, man. So how did you get from volunteering for that to- How did you get to working for the Park Service? You mentioned Vasquez.

Roger Judson [00:33:31] Yeah, well, he helped me. He said I probably should work for the park. And so he helped me with the 171 and all that kind of stuff. And that was the time that they had just gotten the grant from Coleman for the backpacking equipment. And so my job was to go into inner-city Cleveland and Akron and introduce the program to the kids there and then bring them out for actually doing the outings. Unfortunately, they had to cut it back because the kids objected to having to carry all this equipment that they weren’t accustomed to carrying. So we cut it back, and they wound up carrying maybe their lunch and some water, and that was about it, and everything else was at the campsite when we got there. 

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:34:17] It was still a good first exposure. 

Roger Judson [00:34:20] It was. It was.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:34:20] So he encouraged you. So your first was kind of working with this program. So do I understand you had other roles?

Roger Judson [00:34:29] Well, I also worked at the comm center for about two or three years.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:34:33] So you’re a dispatcher?

Roger Judson [00:34:34] Yes.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:34:35] Any other roles?

Roger Judson [00:34:37] No.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:34:42] So I’m going to go back to Sharon. What was the most rewarding part of volunteer management?

Sharon Judson [00:34:52] Getting the right person for the right job. Because they became very happy, and they were doing something useful, they were giving back to the park, which is the main reason. You know, I just love working with people and being able to utilize their talents in the way that they’re happy doing it.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:35:24] So the flip side of that. What were the challenges of working for the Park Service?

Sharon Judson [00:35:33] The challenges. You know, I know you can’t say this, but this is a Valley volunteer - I used to put out a volunteer newsletter, and this is in 1992 - and it has three hands. One of them says visitors, one of them says park staff, and the other one is volunteers.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:35:59] And afterwards, if it’s okay with you, I may take a picture of that front page.

Sharon Judson [00:36:03] Absolutely. Yeah. This is for you.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:36:07] Can we put this with the files?

Sharon Judson [00:36:09] Yeah.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:36:09] Or. Oh, okay.

Sharon Judson [00:36:10] It’s an extra I have. The challenges was to smooth the way sometimes between the volunteers, the park staff, the volunteer supervisors- I did not supervise volunteers directly most of the time. That, we had volunteer supervisors out there, which you, of course, were a volunteer supervisor. You did living histories with them, right? You did lock demos. At any rate.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:36:54] Supposedly I was a railroad supervisor, but I’ve been a little, as you know, a little remiss lately with that.

Sharon Judson [00:36:59] Absolutely. So that was the most challenging part of it. We also had a union in our park, which most of the time, most parks do not have a union. So I had to go with them to their meetings once in a while and talk about the role of volunteers. It was to enhance what the park staff was doing. And I never let volunteers work for 40 hours a week. That was just a no-no. They weren’t going to take over the park jobs. They just helped with it.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:37:43] So we have one gentleman in the trails group that I think he lives at the park. So what did you like best about volunteer management? You kind of hinted at that with the most rewarding. Was there anything else that you really liked about it?

Sharon Judson [00:38:04] I like talking about it, talking about the groups of volunteers and the friends that they’ve made. I did become the regional representative for the Midwest Region. So I used to go to those meetings in Washington to find out what was going on and to put my input in. Because we had the largest program in the Midwest Region, Volunteers in Parks is what is called. And so I could put some input into what we were doing and share it. Also became a trainer of volunteers and parks program managers, or supervisors or coordinators, depending on what the park called it. So we put together a training program. How best to recruit, to retain, how to recognize. We had volunteer recognition ceremonies every year, and that’s so important, even though not a lot of people went to it, but it was in recognition. And we gave them little tchotchkes with the National Park Service emblem on them, and they treasured them. 

Sharon Judson [00:39:36] There’s still that.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:39:36] Good. Sometimes I’m jealous because the volunteers are getting it. So how did the volunteer program- How has it changed over the years? What are the positives? What are the negatives of those changes?

Sharon Judson [00:39:52] Well, I think I brought more organization to the programs because of my knowledge, my background in volunteer program management and how to retain, like I said, volunteers and that. Some of the volunteer supervisors were natural at it. You know, they knew how to work with people, how to keep them interested, and how to, I don’t want to say discipline, but correct the volunteer that was doing something that wasn’t, you know, NPS way of doing things or correcting a child that came to a school program. Did that answer your question?

Roger Judson [00:40:49] If I can comment, when the Conservancy came in, it changed the focus of the park considerably. They are very good at soliciting money and providing funds for the things that we do. However, the focus changed from providing services and things for the people to making money. And that is a two-edged sword. And unfortunately it alienated quite a number of volunteers because we were coming for one reason and their impetus was another direction. And so that created a little friction which unfortunately still exists. The Conservancy is a wonderful organization, but their focus on one thing and one thing only in many ways is a detriment.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:41:48] And I can understand that. Switching back for just a moment. So did your children also volunteer?

Roger Judson [00:42:00] Yes.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:42:01] Did they volunteer as children or did you volunteer as a family?

Roger Judson [00:42:05] Both. They volunteered with us at the first festival as children. They were runners and helped-

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:42:17] And how old were they?

Sharon Judson [00:42:21] I think 10 or 12, something like that.

Roger Judson [00:42:24] It would help take water out to people working parking areas.

Sharon Judson [00:42:28] they worked in the craft area.

Roger Judson [00:42:30] Craft? Yeah, they did a lot of craft with kids.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:42:33] So what was it like to volunteer as a family?

Roger Judson [00:42:36] It was great because we all believed in what we were doing.

Sharon Judson [00:42:40] It was fun. Yeah.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:42:43] And I’m drawing- I’m having my own version of senior moment. How many kids?

Roger Judson [00:42:49] Two.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:42:49] There were two?

Sharon Judson [00:42:50] Okay.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:42:51] I thought I remembered that, but I wasn’t positive. So I’m gonna switch off and ask Roger, what was your favorite volunteering memory?

Roger Judson [00:43:06] Oh, man. Probably the winter camping programs, because we got to introduce something that was brand new to people. Not only the program, but it was a new activity that they hadn’t become involved in. And they would come away in many cases with a whole new appreciation for themselves, their abilities, and the fact that they could go sleep at 20 below and with the right equipment and the right attitude and the right know how they could do it and enjoy it. So I think it made a positive impact on quite a number of people and I really enjoyed that. And like I say, there were six other guys that helped me do that. And we became brothers. We became a real family.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:43:48] So who were the other?

Roger Judson [00:43:50] Dave Herbster, Rich Miller, Dave Gates, Dave Crocker. Who am I missing? Bob Girardi. Paul Higgins. Paul Higgins did the first winter camping program.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:44:11] Did you have a thing for Dave names or something? Yeah, call Dave and you get like multiple-

Roger Judson [00:44:16] Five guys would show up.

Sharon Judson [00:44:18] Bob Brown.

Roger Judson [00:44:19] Oh, yeah. Bob Brown.

Sharon Judson [00:44:20] Daves and Bobs.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:44:22] Oh, man. So I’ll come back to you. Okay, so you’ll get this question, too. Sharon, what are you most proud of accomplishing at Cuyahoga Valley?

Sharon Judson [00:44:41] I guess I would say the Trailblazer and the Adopt a Trail program. They’re good, solid programs. They’re trained well. They’re effective out there. And I remember, like, with the Adopt a Trail program, we had a horrible storm in the park, and they weren’t sure where to go first, you know, to check things out. And I said, wait, I have the Adopt a Trail program. The volunteers can go on their trail. They can tell you exactly where the problems are, because we also had maps of the area, and they could just mark it and then give it to the maintenance guys.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:45:43] So they would know. So the maintenance guys can start with the buildings and grounds.

Sharon Judson [00:45:48] And they would have the right materials with them because they knew what problems there were out there. So, you know, it was just an example of the way we were able to enhance the program and have it be effective, but with the accurate descriptions and place that it was, there were problems.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:46:22] Roger, what are you most proud of accomplishing?

Roger Judson [00:46:27] I think the longevity, the opportunity to be involved in a national park for as long as I have been and will continue to be, and the evolution that has taken place here. And I feel like I’m part of a family working with the rangers and the other volunteers to provide to the public the best experience that they can have in a national park.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:46:57] And that shows, because we actually got a couple of letters that said that our notes, and I think one was a email message and one was a letter that said we had the friendliest rangers they’d ever encountered and the friendliest staff. And the public doesn’t know who a ranger is and who a volunteer is, so that’s part of it. So I’ll end with this question. Do you have any memorable stories or experiences that through the years, really stick out to you? I find it funny, like your story of the kid that the tough guy that had to go hide in the van. [laughs] So were there any memorable stories through the years? Either one of you.

Roger Judson [00:47:55] I was working the festival. Was it the festival? I was working some kind of an event, and this girl comes running up behind me and grabs me and hugs me. And she had come to our backpacking program, had never been backpacking before. This was years later, and she had been to the Tetons, and she mentioned about five or six different parks that she had backpacked through. And she wanted to thank me for introducing her to this wonderful sport that she was not aware of prior to that time. And so it really made an impact on her. 

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:48:31] Wow.

Roger Judson [00:48:34] And I think I’ve affected quite a number of people. I enjoy working in the visitor center, and providing not only information on the trails over there, and this is that, but an appreciation for nature, for the park, for the things that we do, and hopefully maybe turn some attitudes around. I had one negative experience. A guy came up to me at the visitor center. He was wearing a MAGA hat, and he got right in my face and starts ragging on, why can you volunteer for the National Park Service? It’s run by the government. They’re all corrupt, and blah, blah, blah. And I started to rear back and I said, no, I can’t do that. So I said, sir, I am not having this conversation with you. And I walked into the visitor center, and once I got in there, I wondered, why did this guy come to the park?

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:49:29] If it’s so corrupt, why, why would you come visit?

Roger Judson [00:49:32] Exactly. That was my thought. And I almost went back out to ask him, but I thought, no, I’m not even going to entertain this guy. But I think he just came to get in somebody’s face and aggravate him and see what kind of response he would get. And I didn’t feed his baloney, but-

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:49:48] And sometimes people need to vent.

Roger Judson [00:49:49] Yeah, but I wasn’t even going to let him do that.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:49:56] Sharon?

Sharon Judson [00:49:58] You know, there are a lot of times that I remember, but I think the biggest thing is gaining friends of like mind that enjoy, you know, doing things for somebody else or something else. And I have some lifelong friendships with people like the Bulbuls. Peg is one of my best friends. She’s so dedicated. They’ve been dedicated all their lives. They were part of the Sierra Club even before the park became a park. They were helping clean off the locks and, and the beaver marsh where there were cars lined up along the banks to stabilize the bank. Excuse me. It’s really good to have friendships that you can admire their ethics and their. Their work ethic. We just really enjoy being with people from the park, both employees and volunteers. They have good attitudes.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:51:35] Any parting thoughts or shots?

Sharon Judson [00:51:40] I’m afraid I forgot something. You know, there were just a tremendous amount of volunteers that have made a difference in the park, you know, both to the park itself and to the efforts we make to the public. It just is tremendous. And I’m afraid I forgot a bunch of things.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:52:06] If you feel free, because we, we can. If you send an email either to Eric or myself, and we can put it with the documentation.

Roger Judson [00:52:16] I don’t say this egotistically, but I think the volunteers provide an opportunity for the park to provide services that there’s no way in the world you could have enough staff or paid people to do. And the volunteers fill in that void and help provide that service and that outreach, the face that people see. And you’re right, many times I don’t think a visitor knows the difference between a ranger and a volunteer. We just have a uniform on.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:52:4] And we cannot do what we do without volunteer assistance. Because volunteers- This isn’t a national park, this is their national park.

Roger Judson [00:53:00] Right, exactly. That’s a good point. There’s a real sense of ownership, and I hope- I know as you’re preparing for next year that there is a focus given to the volunteers, not me, but to the volunteer program in the large picture.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:53:18] That is one of the defining moments. I’m using the word defining moments, but that’s not the title that we’re working with anymore. That’s one of the major moments. And that is something that we’re developing a 50-slide program that’s going to play before programs. That’s going to play like when you’re waiting for a Lyceum or it’s going to be in the visitor center and volunteers will be used in that and seen in that.

Roger Judson [00:53:45] Good.

Sharon Judson [00:53:46] Yeah, that’s- That’s what I want to make sure that they are in the documentation and the pictures and whatever. I mean, volunteers went to Washington to talk to their congressman and that to make the park happen in this area with Seiberling and Regula. And then like Janet Hutchison, a- She at first represented the League of Women Boaters, I believe, and she archived all of the legislation that they went through to make the park a park here. So I mean, they were there before the park was here and they have a big party.

Roger Judson [00:54:42] That’s one of the things we talk about when we introduce the park and one of the many ways that we’re unique is that we were a park that was demanded by the people. It wasn’t an outside group that came in.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:54:53] It wasn’t Rockefeller turning over his private estate exactly.

Roger Judson [00:54:56] It was a bunch of little old ladies that went to Washington and said, we gotta set this area aside, we gotta do something to protect this or it’s gonna become parking lots and condos like everything around it.

Sharon Judson [00:55:04] Well, I think the campaign at the time was Parks to the people.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:55:11] Yeah, that was the Federal National Park Service. It was one of the directives that we were working on.

Roger Judson [00:55:17] That’s how the recreation area started.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:55:25] This is for me personally. The Judson shadow is long. I hope my shadow is half as long. Thank you to you both for all you’ve done.

Roger Judson [00:55:36] Thank you for the opportunity.

Sharon Judson [00:55:37] Thank you. Anything I missed, Erich?

Erich Schnack [00:55:45] Nothing that we’ve missed looking at this list, but I do want to thank both of you for coming out. Roger, I think it was my second week on the job as a ranger working the visitor center during COVID when you guys were slowly coming back in. And I really appreciated working with you for the first time.

Roger Judson [00:56:05] I appreciate that.

Erich Schnack [00:56:06] It’s great to, you know, do an oral history with you a couple years later here and thank you for all that you do.

Roger Judson [00:56:13] Sure.

Rebecca Jones Macko [00:56:18] Thank you.

Erich Schnack [00:56:21] And goodbye, everybody.

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