Dan Betts interview, 03 October 2023

Abstract

Dan Betts was a MWRO Realty Specialist, MWRO Deputy Realty Officer (The lead for the National Park Service Midwest Region). He was involved with land acquisition within the Cuyahoga Valley National Park in the 1980s. In this oral history, he discusses the early years of acquisition, the leading staff, and the relationship between the NPS and surrounding communities and land owners. He also discusses his career path and how he became a Realty Specialist, challenges, successes and managing his workload.

Interviewee

Betts, Dan (interviewee)

Interviewer

Rosser, Arrye (interviewer); Schnack, Erich (participant)

Project

Cuyahoga Valley National Park

Date

10-3-2023

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

97 minutes

Recommended Citation

"Dan Betts interview, 03 October 2023" (2023). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 343025.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/1424

Related Resources

CVNP @ Cleveland Voices

Transcript

Arrye Rosser [00:00:00] I just want to do a little bit of housekeeping at the start of this oral history. Thank you so much for agreeing to participate. I wish we were seeing each other in person. It’s always funny to do it by phone if you don’t have a visual memory, knowledge of what somebody’s like. But I’m really looking forward to our conversation.

Dan Betts [00:00:22] Good.

Arrye Rosser [00:00:24] So I’ll just frame this oral history by saying that Dennis Ham, who retired as the person at Cuyahoga [Valley] National Park that managed our lands and leasing program for many years, he recommended that we talk to you after we did an oral history with him about the land’s history of Cuyahoga Valley and just sort of flesh out our understanding of the. Those early years, in particular, of land acquisition as the national park was just developing. So that’s kind of like the broad brush overview. I’ll just clarify for the tape that. This is Arrye Rosser. I’m the interpretive and education specialist at Cuyahoga Valley National Park, and Erich Schnack is the tech person. You might hear his voice on the tape at some point. Today’s date is October 3, 2023. We’re talking with Dan Betts by phone. Erich and I are here in Northeast Ohio teleworking, and Dan is in Omaha, Nebraska. Yeah, and then I was just gonna- We’re gonna start out by talking about just an overview of your career in the Park Service. Then we’ll jump into land acquisition at Cuyahoga, what used to be called Cuyahoga Valley National Recreation Area. And then we have a few questions about the Midwest Region’s land acquisition more generally. And just some kind of ending reflection. Questions just kind of give you a sense of where we’re headed. That sound good?

Dan Betts [00:02:17] Sure, yeah.

Arrye Rosser [00:02:18] All right, great. Well, Dan, let me make sure we’ve got the spelling of your last name right. Is it B, E, T, T, S?

Dan Betts [00:02:27] Correct.

Arrye Rosser [00:02:28] All right, great. And how did you come to work for the National Park Service?

Dan Betts [00:02:33] Well, my first assignment with the Park Service was 1973. I took a land surveyor position with the Denver Service Center, which was a very interesting job because it was constantly traveling. In the wintertime, we’d be down in southern California or southern Texas. And in the wintertime or some summertime, we’d be up in Glacier or Olympic or Mount Rainier or something like that. So it was a great experience, but it was constant traveling. And after a couple years, regrettably, looking back in hindsight, I decided to try something different, a little more stable. But as a result, as it turned out, the person that I worked with in that job wound up getting me into the land acquisition program, actually. So I did this traveling job for a couple years and then I went worked for the Corps of Engineers down in the Georgia area on the dam and reservoir project. And from there I went out to Eugene, Oregon. I was working for the Bureau of Land Management. They have big Douglas fir trees out there that they need to harvest, but they need to know for sure where the property line is. So we were marking property lines to make sure that the trees that we cut were ours and et cetera. While I was out in Eugene, Oregon, a fellow that I worked with the Corps of Engineers down in Georgia contacted me and he was up at Cuyahoga Valley at the time. And he says, hey, we’re trying to hire some people. We’d like to have you join us. So I did come over to Cuyahoga in 1977 as part of the land acquisition team and essentially wound up in that program until I retired in 2020. It was great work experience. I appreciated the mission of what we were trying to accomplish in conserving lands and things of that nature.

Arrye Rosser [00:04:21] Yeah, I’m curious, like, what was your background in terms of, like, your training and things like that? Were you from a job as far as this formal education? 

Dan Betts [00:04:31] All I basically had was an associate degree, which is a two-year degree in land surveying. And, and that got my foot in the door with the Denver Service Center. And then I think just due to my interest in the program and my work ethic, I was able to, with that being my only formal education, advance pretty far in my career.

Arrye Rosser [00:04:55] I’d say you did great, Dan. That’s really interesting. Yeah. It’s funny how these career fields become more formalized as time goes on and professionalized, but yeah, that’s- It’s kind of incredible to think he started out, you know, doing all that fieldwork and ended up in a head office. I think that’s fantastic.

Dan Betts [00:05:22] Yeah, like I said, I had an interest in what was going on. So I was always interacting with people that, you know, were my superiors and doing other, involved with different disciplines in mind, if you will, to kind of understand what they were doing, what their world was like. And I had some benefited from having several people that helped me out along the way. You know, give me support, give me encouragement, gave me training opportunities, things of that nature to help me advance.

Arrye Rosser [00:05:50] Yeah. Could you flesh that out a little bit more? Like was, who are some of those people that had a special influence on your career early on?

Dan Betts [00:05:59] Well, Jack Blanton was one of the top people in the land acquisition office there at Cuyahoga Valley. He was very influential and helped me quite a bit. And then when I left Cuyahoga, I went to St. Croix and there was a gentleman there in charge named Steve Blackburn. He was another person that gave me a lot of opportunity to grow. And from there I went out to the Seattle regional office and I worked under a gentleman named Harlan Hopps, who again, exposed me to a lot of different things and gave me and taught me a lot of things. And I learned various things from different people. And some of the people in the solicitor’s office that I work with, that I learned from. And then as I got later in my career and I began to grow, one thing I noticed was once these people that I leaned on. When they left, you know, I felt a greater sense of responsibility. So it was a kind of a growing, and sad as well.

Arrye Rosser [00:07:09] Yeah.

Dan Betts [00:07:13] Sorry about that.

Arrye Rosser [00:07:14] Oh, no. Yeah, it’s- It’s fascinating to think about how people help each other and how meaningful that is over the course of things. What were the kinds of, like, things that were insights that you maybe got from Jack Blanton at Cuyahoga Valley? I’m just kind of curious because I’m- I’m in a total- I’m an interpreter, so I’m in a whole other field.

Dan Betts [00:07:42] Well, I think one of the key things was she convinced me to advance my career in spite of perhaps what might be some minor setbacks or something like that, or, you know, and something that you might not want to really do, but one that’s going to help you. So you just do it anyway in hopes that it’s going to lead to something better. I can’t think of anything specific. I also do want to mention there was a gentleman here in the regional office, Fred Meyer, who was- He was the chief of land resources in the regional office. And he was also extremely helpful in my advancement.

Arrye Rosser [00:08:28] And can you- I have some- This is like one of those little nuanced things that I’ve had trouble understanding is just like the structure of how the land acquisition work was done is. So you were hired. Were you working for the regional office when you came to Cuyahoga Valley? Were you working for Cuyahoga Valley and kind of in that when you came in in 1977? Like, was it-

Dan Betts [00:08:57] Sure. So. So back in the ’70s, there were what we call field offices. So they would be located at parks that had a lot of land acquisition activity. Voyageurs National Park was where Jack Blanton was. And that was kind of wind- And that’s how he wound up coming to Cuyahoga. Same thing at Sleeping Bear Dunes. You know, they had a staff there, but that was also kind of winding down in the late ’70s. But Indiana Dunes and Cuyahoga Valley were- And St. Croix. I’m sorry, St. Croix were the three, I would say strong or larger field offices within the region. So, you know, depending on. I didn’t work at Indiana Dunes until later in my career when they had no lands office at the park. But for example, at Cuyahoga, when I went there in ’77, there were about 17 or 18 people that were just in the lands office. When I went up to St. Croix, there was probably about a dozen or so. And then in the early ’80s, I guess it was, or mid-’80s, they kind of closed down all the field offices and any employees that were interested could come into the regional office or find other jobs or whatever happened. So it all got consolidated in the regional office in probably the mid-’80s or thereabouts.

Arrye Rosser [00:10:26] Yeah, thanks for clarifying that. Was there- I’m kind of guessing that there was a slug of money that was floating around in the ’70s. Do you have that would kind of driving this land buying spree that the Park Service was on? Do you have any kind of memory of kind of what was behind kind of why was there all this land acquisition happening and what kinds of parks were being added?

Dan Betts [00:10:56] Well, the Land and Water Conservation act was passed in ’65, and that’s the venue where all the money for land acquisition comes from. And in the ’70s there was a lot of push at the congressional levels and just nationwide, it seems, to expand and grow parks. You know, the Cuyahoga was in the mix with those what they called urban parks like Gateway and Golden Gate. You know, they were kind of the urban parks. And then Santa Monica came along, another urban park. But there was a Congressman Burton out of California, he was a chairman of a committee. And they were all sort of on board with creating a lot of parks, expanding a lot of parks and appropriating a lot of money for acquisition. And if we were unsuccessful at purchasing property from willing sellers, there was condemnation was used to try and get these parks up and running and make, get them established. So there was a lot of condemnation that was used at Voyageurs and Cuyahoga, Indiana Dunes. And then in the- I guess it was about the time that George Bush came into power that the use of condemnation kind of fell in disfavor And I don’t think we’ve done much of any with respect to condemnation since that time. Did you want me to follow up on something that I mentioned?

Arrye Rosser [00:12:30] Maybe I’ll circle back to some. Let me just get some clarity for some of the titles that you had so we record that correctly. So when you were first came into Cuyahoga Valley in ’77, what was your title at that point?

Dan Betts [00:12:52] I was a cartographic technician.

Arrye Rosser [00:12:56] And what does a cartographic technician do?

Dan Betts [00:13:01] So I was responsible- We had a local firm was under contract to prepare our mapping and legal descriptions. And so I was reviewing the quality of that work and seeing if it was done on time and the billing process for that. And then I was actually doing field work developing legal descriptions, basically preparing the land status maps that identify who owns what, where it’s at when we acquire it. Then we would show it as being federal land, or if we acquire an easement on it, we would show on the map that we have a less than fee interest in the property, or if it was private or publicly owned lands, if it’s state owned, and things of that nature. So developing land status maps and legal descriptions, reviewing title policies and things of that nature in support of the realty specialists who are the ones that are dealing with the owners and the title companies and the attorneys that represent the owners, et cetera.

Arrye Rosser [00:14:02] Gotcha. Tell me like some of those other roles that people had that were a part of that 1- or 18-person team in the field office in Cuyahoga Valley.

Dan Betts [00:14:16] Sure. So the two people that were in charge was Jack Blanton and Mike Sweeney. They were, I guess, I would say, the leaders of the office. I think Mike was the land acquisition officer and Jack may have been the deputy perhaps. But in addition- And they dealt with landowners and, you know, the administrative coordination with the regional office, because that was always a critical thing to get done. But in addition to that, we had about four realty specialists and they would be going out on a daily basis and meeting with landowners or their attorneys in their offices to kind of discuss trying to make deals to acquire property. We also had three people that worked in what they called the relocation section. Because anytime the federal government buys property, if it’s occupied by someone, when they are eligible for assistance, and trying to find another place to be, be it a farm or a business or a residential property, there’s different requirements and eligibility that come into play. So there was a lot of, obviously a lot of relocation work that was being done because a lot of properties were being purchased. We had two appraisers on staff. And they were- They also had an assistant that helped them with their paperwork and processes. And then I was the lone cartographer in the office. And then there were about four or five administrative assistance types, people that, you know, sent letters out and kept track of our records and files and helped purchase things and things of that nature. So I guess something that you might find kind of interesting as well is 1977, the reason that the Park Service was they were gearing up. What happened was the Park Service and the Corps of Engineers had some kind of an arrangement where the Corps of Engineers was essentially conducting the Land Acquisition Activity Program at Cuyahoga National Recreation Area for the National Park Park Service. And I think that’s how my friend who advised me to come over there, because he was a Corps of Engineers guy, so he must have went up there when the Corps was staffing up to do the project. So what happened, as I understand it, was the Corps of Engineers purchased a residential property over on Oak Hill Road. And the guy that they bought it from reserved salvage rates to the house, and what he wound up doing was buying a piece of land from his neighbor across the street, and he moved the house across the street. So park. And everybody got pretty upset about that. So we bought it again. And I think that that was a bad PR issue. Another, the Park Service decided instead of having the Corps of Engineers do our work, we’re going to gear up and get our own staff here. So that’s how I wound up at going there in 1977.

Arrye Rosser [00:17:25] Well, now I’m dying to know which property that was and whether the property is still standing. I started my- I’m 30 years in at Cuyahoga Valley, and I started my career working at the Environmental Education Center on Oak Hill Road. And there was a lot of protests initially by some of the neighbors on the road, as that property kind of started up in the early ’90s. So I’m kind of curious, actually. Do you have any memory of where that was?

Dan Betts [00:17:56] I think the landowner’s name was James Shadima.

Arrye Rosser [00:18:00] Okay.

Dan Betts [00:18:02] I believe.

Arrye Rosser [00:18:05] That’s crazy. Did the property get demolished at some point, or is that house sort of still sitting there?

Dan Betts [00:18:11] You know, I do- No, I do not know.

Arrye Rosser [00:18:14] Well, that’s just a funny little story. Holy smokes. Yeah. We’ve read some of the things about the sort of transfer of the buying kind of lead being going from Army Corps to the Park Service, and I hadn’t heard that story of the Oak Hill property being kind of a tipping point. And I also kind of thought that there was just some sort of some bad PR that was happening with the level of land acquisition and the homeowners association that was kind of organized in opposition to it.

Dan Betts [00:18:55] Yeah, that very well could be. You know, I guess I have to put some things in perspective, you know, like, when I was there, I was kind of a small part of the process, you know what I mean? I mean, I was one person doing one job, and there were 17 people doing other jobs. So I had my hands full doing what I was supposed to be doing. Although I did try to tap in with these other people so I could, like I said, understand what they’re doing and how I fit in, etc. But, you know, there was a lot going on that I’m sure I was not aware of.

Arrye Rosser [00:19:26] Yeah, sure. How- So what in how long were you at Cuyahoga Valley in that cartel? A cartographic technician role?

Dan Betts [00:19:36] In 19, early 1981, I transferred to St. Croix National Riverway. So I was there for three and a half years or so.

Arrye Rosser [00:19:50] And then how did you end up in the Midwest region and what was your role kind of there this year in the office? This would have been saying in the ’80s is when the consolidation started happening. Field offices kind of started to be ’81 to ’85.

Dan Betts [00:20:12] And then I went to the regional office in Seattle, and I spent probably 90% percent of my time while I was out there for five years working on the Alaska parts, which was a very unique and interesting situation. But we have family in the Midwest, and being in Seattle was a little bit of a challenge in some regards. So I got an opportunity to come back to the east side of the country and went over to the Appalachian Trail for a short stint. And then an opportunity came up to come to Omaha as a cartographic technician again. So all those years, I basically worked in the lands program as a cartographic technician, technologies technician. So I came back to the regional office in ’89. I guess I would say I never worked, had not worked in the regional office prior to that date. But I came back to the region, and at that time, that was where all the lands staff was housed. So I continued to do cartographic work. But then I got an opportunity to slip over onto the reality side of the program. And I was kind of halfway cargo and half realty. And then as a time went on, I became pretty much strictly just a realty specialist. And that would have been about ’91. So I spent about the next, what, 30 years doing real estate for the regional office.

Arrye Rosser [00:21:35] So when did you start doing the realty specialist work? Was that in ’91 or a little bit earlier when you were still kind of probably about.

Dan Betts [00:21:43] Probably about 1990 or so. I started getting a little bit more involved in it. At about 91 it switched over to full time realty work.

Arrye Rosser [00:21:53] And then you did that through, through your retirement in 2020?

Dan Betts [00:21:59] Yes. Yeah. So I was a realty specialist until 2011 when I was elevated to the chief of the, of the division. So I became the realty officer at that point and I did that for about nine years or so before I retired.

Arrye Rosser [00:22:17] Sir, give me those dates one more time. That would be 20- 2011.

Dan Betts [00:22:22] 2011. I became the reality officer for the region. Yes.

Arrye Rosser [00:22:28] Great. And go back to like the, that those years in Cuyahoga Valley kind of. What was. How would you describe. Well, actually, let me. I’m trying to paint a picture in my mind about it. Where was your offices? First of all, where were you located?

Dan Betts [00:22:48] Okay, well, we worked- I was going to mention we did have a lot of contact with the superintendent’s office. That, that was Bill Birdsell was the superintendent at the time and he had a guy working for him, Sheridan Steele. So their office was on Route 303 in Peninsula. They were working out of, I think it was a former residence or something like that that been converted to an office space. The lands office was located at 313 West Boston Mills Road, which is just barely inside the park and along right along. It’s on the east side of the Valley and the Cleveland Metroparks has a trail that goes northwesterly along there that was a former railroad right-of-way and our office essentially butted right up against that right-of-way and on the north side of Boston Mills Road. So we had two-story building. It was a brick building and it had a walkout basement in the back and there’s a parking area in the back for vehicles.

Arrye Rosser [00:23:55] That’s interesting because that I way you’re describing it, it’s probably about where we have a trailhead for the bike and hike trail which is on that old Rails to Trails line that Summit Metro Parks owns. But it runs through the national park.

Dan Betts [00:24:12] Yeah, I can imagine that would be, you know, a good spot for a parking area.

Arrye Rosser [00:24:17] Yeah, yeah.

Dan Betts [00:24:18] We did have another parking area front that was smaller for maybe, oh, maybe eight, nine cars or something might have fit in there. But then in the back we had a more square lot that was fenced. So one morning came into work and somebody had broken into our parking lot in the back and took a sledgehammer and beat our electrical panel to death and took a hunting knife and put a hole in the sidewalls of all the government vehicles that were sitting in the parking lot as well.

Arrye Rosser [00:24:53] Wow. Tells you something about local sentiment about land acquisition.

Dan Betts [00:25:01] Yeah, for some contentious moments, I’m sure.

Arrye Rosser [00:25:08] Do you remember if you were on the east or the west side of the bike and hike trail?

Dan Betts [00:25:14] The west side, west side.

Arrye Rosser [00:25:16] Yeah, you’re right there, right by that trailhead. So that’s- We have- That’s kind of the home of where our mountain bike trail system is now. So I never heard that before of that geography. So that’s really interesting as we interpret that property to kind of tie that into the land acquisition history. So that was- What was kind of the relationship you mentioned, Sheridan Steele and Bill Birdsell. What was the relationship between the land acquisition office and the superintendent’s office during that time? Was it cordial relationship? Was it tense? Was it- How much did you guys talk to each other?

Dan Betts [00:25:59] Well, it was very frequent- I mean, it wouldn’t be uncommon at all to see him come in, somebody stop in on maybe as much as almost a daily basis to check in on things and, you know, just kind of coordinate matters. And, you know, I guess for me, being at the lower level somewhat in the office, I wouldn’t know exactly how well the relationships were, but they worked well enough to make things happen. Yeah, I’m sure there were some contentious conversations that occurred now and then.

Arrye Rosser [00:26:32] What were some of the- Were there other park staff or other, you know, kind of characters that were part of this cast or folks that you were regularly working with?

Dan Betts [00:26:47] Well, when I was doing field work, it’d be kind of regular for me to have somebody from maybe one of the maintenance offices to help me do some of the field work I was doing. To be honest with you, we’re talking a number of years ago and perhaps I can’t particularly recall for sure. Was there a guy named Pete Peterson that was a super, was a deputy there at one point?

Arrye Rosser [00:27:12] I, you know, I don’t know, but you. It could well be.

Dan Betts [00:27:17] And then after Bill Birdsell died, then I think Lou Albert came in. Is that right? Yeah, I remember Lew Albert being in our building one time.

Arrye Rosser [00:27:29] Albert. And let me see how much this is sort of a question that Dennis had suggested. How many projects would have been in process at any one time?

Dan Betts [00:27:45] Well, obviously many. When you’ve got as many as six realty people beating the bush and talking to landowners and sending out offers and just- That would be a hard- I mean, there we can pull information from our database that can, if you folks want to get it sometime, to kind of generate how many tracks were purchased each year, I would imagine, or something to that effect. But there was a lot of land acquisition activity going on because we had staff and funding to proceed. And back in those days, we actually were the realty specialists were able to negotiate so that they could exceed the appraised value. So if property was appraised at 100,000, it wouldn’t be uncommon for them to pay 120,000 or something like that to convince the landowner to make it something happen. And then later on time, Congress kind of put the squelch on that. So for most of the recent years of my realty experience, anyway, whatever the appraised value is, is pretty much all we can pay. You know, we do it. They do have relocation benefits available to them, but the purchase prices basically gets established by the appraiser.

Arrye Rosser [00:29:04] Yeah, and that, I know that was often like bone of contention, especially in hindsight. Not always. Maybe the family member that was doing the sale, but perhaps other family members, like children, you know, adult- It’s like, hey, they didn’t get a fair price. So I think that’s a good point for you to just clarify, like how that whole pricing thing went. When was the change? Do you have a memory of that?

Dan Betts [00:29:34] I do not know. I would think it would have been sometime in the mid-’80s, but I couldn’t tell you for sure.

Arrye Rosser [00:29:42] So actually they had a little bit of wiggle room during the bulk of the Cuyahoga Valley land acquisition. Time to have some negotiation then.

Dan Betts [00:29:53] Yeah. And then many times the condemnation process was an avenue to get more money because, you know, you could settlements or juries or whatever come up with, you know, a different opinion of values. I was going to follow up saying, if you folks are interested in kind of knowing how many acres were acquired, you know, in certain span of time, I’m sure that our database could figure that out.

Arrye Rosser [00:30:26] Yeah, I think- I think that would be really helpful to just have some of the basic statistics of it to understand time frame and the volume of acreage and probably money too.

Dan Betts [00:30:43] So if you want to put together some kind of an inventory of what information you’d like to see if we can garner, and then submit that to Michael Bachmann, who’s the greatest current chief he could possibly see if somebody in our IT area can manipulate the data.

Arrye Rosser [00:30:58] Yeah, we will maybe email Erich afterwards that contact information of an introduction. And we’re not in a rush for it. But it would be nice to have that before we go into our 50th anniversary in a year from now. So there’s time to kind of, you know, pull, pull some numbers together. And I know Dennis did some work on it, but I’m not sure if he’s ever, like, drilled down. It would be nice to feel like we had some definitive information. Can you- Going back to condemnation, because that issue comes up a lot, can you explain how condemnation is a different process than other means of land acquisition and then how much of that took place at Cuyahoga Valley Chain, to your knowledge? 

Dan Betts [00:31:55] Well, I guess in current, under current situation, where we cannot exceed the appraised value, the condemnation approach is pretty much the only way that a owner has an option of attaining more money than what the agency is able to offer.

Arrye Rosser [00:32:19] So if I’m understanding condemnation was when there was an appraised value and an offer was made, and then the owners didn’t want to take that offer-

Dan Betts [00:32:34] Right.

Arrye Rosser [00:32:34] And they basically contested it. Is that how it worked?

Dan Betts [00:32:39] Yeah. So the court ia an opportunity to make a settlement for a different figure. Also, condemnation does or has been used in cases where the agency had a concern about a property being developed. Let’s say you had a vacant parcel and. And we were trying to acquire it, and the person who owns it was planning to put condominium on it, and whatever we offered wasn’t satisfactory, then if we condemn the property, that could prevent it from being developed. Now, there’s two different approaches for condemnation. There’s what’s called- They’re both eminent domain. Under a complaint of condemnation, title of the property does not pass until the court process gets completed. But there’s another process called declaration of taking, which means the agency would deposit with the courts what they believe to be the value of the property, and they file a declaration of taking. And once they file that document and give the money to the clerk, then the title passes to the USA. And those- And that is used where there’s a concern about the property being developed, let’s say.

Arrye Rosser [00:34:03] Thank you for clarifying that, because I did sort of feel like most people, when you say condemnation, they think about it as a declaration of taking, probably, and not kind of the description that Dennis had been talking to us about, which sounded like really it was just going to court to be settled, you know, not through that legal process.

Dan Betts [00:34:27] Well, and under both processes, which is it’s called a complaint in condemnation or a declaration of taking, those are the two avenues for eminent domain. But under either of those processes, the court is the ultimately the decider of compensation. So like in a DT, let’s say we thought a property was worth a hundred thousand dollars and we deposited $100,000 with the court and we own the property, and a year later comes up to a court hearing and it winds up being $300,000, well, the agency has to pay the difference plus interest on the difference.

Arrye Rosser [00:35:08] Gotcha. So it’s kind of a miracle that people didn’t endlessly tie things up in that process. Dennis was telling us- I’m- I’m not maybe going to get the number exactly right, but it was maybe roughly 10 percent of land acquisition in Cuyahoga Valley was through condemnation.

Dan Betts [00:35:28] You know, I wouldn’t venture to make a guess on that. If, you know, if you folks there again, that’s something that our database should be able to extract. If you think that’s something you want to know.

Arrye Rosser [00:35:41] Yeah, I think that would be interesting to- Maybe we can work with Dennis on trying to kind of understand the right terms to use to get the stats pulled out, because I know he did some of it already. So we don’t end up to duplicate work or the region to duplicate work. But it would be helpful to kind of just feel a little confident in all the numbers.

Dan Betts [00:36:08] So both the condemnation process and the- There was an act passed in the ’70s called the Uniform Real Property Acquisition Act. Those acts are in place to protect landowners, to make sure that the agencies don’t abuse them in the land acquisition process. So there are benefits available to them. There’s protections, if you will, in some regards. So that’s- That falls back to the Constitution, obviously, the eminent domain.

Arrye Rosser [00:36:43] So people might not have a choice in whether or not their land is acquired by the government, but they have an opportunity to have the court rule on the value of their property.

Dan Betts [00:36:57] And the right just kind is the goal.

Arrye Rosser [00:37:02] Yeah. So do you have any memories? I know it wasn’t your area about the relocation like any stories. We’d heard a little bit about the Tonkin property, which was what we now call how Meadow and the Beaver Marsh area. And I don’t know if you just had any things that you remember from that time that was kind of a- If there were any dramatic relocation stories that stuck out.

Dan Betts [00:37:32] You know, I’m sorry, I don’t know that I do.

Arrye Rosser [00:37:36] There was the junkyard that was with all the VWs and we’d always sort of been- It was like a VW car junkyard slash service station. And we’d always kind of wondered, like, what happened to them all. But we had- The family told us that they relocated all those old engines and all the junk with them. [laughs] I think it’s kind of hilarious. 

Dan Betts [00:38:03] I do recall that there was something about some topsoil that the Kurtz Bros., I believe, towards the north end of the park had on their property. And it was a bit of a relocation issue, as I recall. And I think I really could- I don’t know enough about it to give you any, any factual information.

Arrye Rosser [00:38:24] That would be an interesting. Well, they’re still in business, so who knows? That might be kind of an interesting. That’s another geographic area. I’m thinking it’s the station or a bridge area. But that would be kind of interesting to pursue that, kind of what that history was, just because it’s sort of unusual.

Dan Betts [00:38:46] And, you know, speaking about history, I guess, it would be my understanding that the Krejci Dump property is one that really got the Park Service, Service-wide, taking a hard look at environmental conditions on property prior to acquisition. I mean, before we bought that property, there was never any thought about that part of it. And it’s become a very big part of the land acquisition program since that time, essentially. And our ESA process, which is environmental site assessment, it starts out with a phase one. It can go to a phase two if there’s issues identified. This- The phase one ESA process has gotten a lot more sophisticated in the last 20 years.

Arrye Rosser [00:39:37] Do you have any personal memories of that Krejci Dump property? Were you stomping around?

Dan Betts [00:39:46] Yeah, I think they were trying to carve out a portion of the property for them to continue to operate under. So I was assigned the task of going out there and coming up with a legal description. So I remember stomping through some of the. Those draws downhill from a bunch of trash and stuff trying to measure things out and figure out where we’re going to put a line.

Arrye Rosser [00:40:09] Oh, my God. That’s crazy.

Dan Betts [00:40:12] I know. I guess. [laughs]

Arrye Rosser [00:40:14] Yeah, it’s like Cancer Alley there. If you have any pictures of that time period that aren’t part of the regular record, we’d love to see them. We love old drum pictures. [laughs]

Dan Betts [00:40:29] That was before- That was before cell phones. I don’t think I had a camera with me.

Arrye Rosser [00:40:32] Yeah, yeah, I know. Everything was in slides, I think, back then. Yeah, that’s- I hadn’t heard that the Krejci that there was conversation about trying to maintain the Krejci’s business there. So that’s interesting little nuance. What do you- What do you remember, like, just describing the Krejci property. Like, what- What did it look like?

Dan Betts [00:40:58] You know, I’m sorry. I- I really don’t know.

Arrye Rosser [00:41:02] That’s- It’s okay. I was just wondering what you remembered. Is there any other kind of notable projects that you remember being involved in at Cuyahoga Valley?

Dan Betts [00:41:17] Well, there was a period of time where I was not very active at Cuyahoga when I was in the regional office. I started doing realty work in 19, and it was- Oh, I don’t know. It might have been 15 years or more before I ever got involved with Cuyahoga, because we had other staff that were responsible for Cuyahoga, and they were kind of secretive about what they were doing. They didn’t like sharing information. So I was busy with Hopewell Culture and Indiana Dunes and various other parks. So then what happened was somebody retired in a lurch, and then I wound up picking up some pieces and trying to get some things going to Cuyahoga. So at that time, the project that was sort of half done that I stepped in on was the church in the Valley Exchange down in Everett.

Arrye Rosser [00:42:06] Yeah. Yeah, tell us about that.

Dan Betts [00:42:10] Well, we were trying to figure out what needed to be done to complete the transaction as far as coordinating with- There was an attorney that represented the church. He was a very nice gentleman. And we were just trying to put all the documents together that needed to be done. I don’t recall specifically, but it was a project that I was thankful that I was able to come in and kind of help wrap up that had kind of been languishing for a little bit, I believe.

Arrye Rosser [00:42:43] Yeah, Dennis told us also. I. That’s in my living memory of the area, too. Tell me, like, what was the time period that you started getting more involved in Cuyahoga Valley? Do you remember what year it was?

Dan Betts [00:42:57] Oh, I would think it must have been probably around ’97, thereabouts.

Arrye Rosser [00:43:06] Gotcha.

Dan Betts [00:43:08] Maybe ’95 to ’97.

Arrye Rosser [00:43:12] 1995 to 1997. Do you remember any other projects that were kind of happening at that time in Cuyahoga Valley?

Dan Betts [00:43:22] Well, we were working with Trust for Public Land on some things. You know, I did a. I did a printout before I retired of projects. Interestingly enough to me, I’m. I’m proud to say that I closed on over 400 properties within the region and got about over 10,000 acres and spent $46,000- $46 million. But in that list, there’s about 20 tracts at Cuyahoga Valley. You know, we’re working with TPL on some things, like almost up near the Wilson Mill and the Meyers’ easement that we acquired over near Blossom. That was another one that had been languishing when I stepped in and got the Church in the Valley thing done. We also worked through that one.

Arrye Rosser [00:44:20] Yeah. Actually I didn’t realize that we had a Meyers- We’ve done an interview with the Meyers before, especially the elder Meyers who since passed. For some reason I never put together that we had easement on that property. But it makes sense.

Dan Betts [00:44:40] Willis Meyer, right?

Arrye Rosser [00:44:41] Yeah, sounds great.

Dan Betts [00:44:43] Yes.

Arrye Rosser [00:44:45] And then his son and then Wilson Mill. That was the complex land trans- Dennis Ham talks about that being like the most complicated land property thing that there ever was. I don’t know if that was the element of it that you were involved in, but trying to iron all that business out with the Wilsons.

Dan Betts [00:45:09] Yeah. So we spent about two or three years working on that one. It was quite extended and had a lot of different aspects associated with it. And then I guess the other, the three big ones that I’m thinking of that I was involved with that Cuyahoga would have been the Phillis Wheatley property that we got an easement over. And the Brandywine Golf Course was just concluded about a year ago that- That took that one on for three or four years. So I was a part of that before I retired and then I helped out. I came back. I’ve worked part-time now through an outfit called New Solutions. So I came back in December of last year, so I was involved with the tail end of wrapping up the Brandywine Golf Course. And the Blossom acquisition was two phases. Was a very big transaction at the park.

Arrye Rosser [00:46:07] Yeah. When we’re- Erich and I are involved in a Green Book Cleveland project now where we’re researching the African American history in the Valley and in the region. So the Camp Mueller property, the Phillis Wheatley Association one is particularly interesting. So anything you could tell us about that would be helpful what you remember about it?

Dan Betts [00:46:34] Well, I don’t- I guess I don’t think- I can’t think of anything that’s specific or highly unique about it. It was just an opportunity to help ensure that that 65 acres didn’t get converted to use to something other than what it- You know? And I guess I would also like to bring up - it slipped my mind a little earlier - The Trust for Public Land. I did mention them, working with them, but back in the early days when I was there in the late ’70s, The Trust for Public Land had an office also along Boston Mills Road somewhere and they were working with our staff as well on projects. So TPL has been a partner for many, many years. And we also had a local land conservancy that helped us purchase what we used to be formerly owned by the Halas. I believe it’s Hines Hill Road maybe or something like that. And it was a property that the Park Service tried to buy for many, many, many years unsuccessfully. And we owned everything around it. It’s not far from the Krejce Dump. But it had a house on it. I think it was about 10 acres. And for many years the Park Service tried to acquire it. And finally a conservancy step- A local land conservancy stepped in and helped us get that and purchased.

Arrye Rosser [00:47:58] Huh. I’ll have to ask Dennis about that. It could be in West Creek. It could been Western Reserve Land Conservancy. They’re probably the ones the most with-

Dan Betts [00:48:10] Yeah, I’m kind of drawing a blank on their name, but they were very helpful on that one. And the Priest property that we bought up on Riverview Road to the north, they were helpful. So what happens with these. Sometimes our partners can step in and do something faster than us because the land acquisition process for the federal government is not a quick one. And if there’s an immediate need to acquire something, there are many situations or times where a partner group can step in and acquire and hold until we can go through our process to buy it from them.

Arrye Rosser [00:48:45] Can you speak to- I mean, we do- Actually, TPL is a partner with us on so many different things, including the Green Book Cleveland project that I mentioned. It would be nice to kind of more define, like, what their role has been in Cuyahoga Valley over the years. I’m curious. So not a super-old organization, probably not a whole lot more than the park is. Do you just kind of from just the wider view, have a sense of kind of how the Park Service has worked with TPL or what the role kind of- Was there TPL-like organizations? This is Trust for Public Land. Were there those types of organizations before TPL existed? I’m just kind of curious about that role of helping the Park Service acquire property, especially in these things that need to turn around quickly.

Dan Betts [00:49:47] Yeah, well, TPL, like I said, they were around in the late ’70s. I don’t- I don’t know when they were formed. Probably sometime after the Atlanta Water Conservation Fund got passed. I couldn’t tell you for sure, but like I say, they had the app, they had a little bit more flexibility. They could, if they want to, they can take some risks. They can buy a property if they want to and hold it not knowing what we’re going to be able to pay. In some cases, they may take a loss. They prefer not to. I’m not sure what their business model is per se, but them. And like the National Park Trust, the Conservation Fund, those are organizations that have stepped up to help us make things happen on many occasions.

Arrye Rosser [00:50:47] Yeah, it’s- It’s kind of like I feel like they’re unsung heroes in many ways, if you like parkland. [laughs] A lot of this work doesn’t happen without those kind of partners.

Dan Betts [00:51:01] Yeah, they were- They were highly critical element to our Blossom transaction there. Right? In fact, We purchased it from them. They were the middleman between the Blossom Music Center and us.

Arrye Rosser [00:51:17] Were you part of the Coliseum property?

Dan Betts [00:51:20] I was in the regional office at the time, but that was when I was doing other parks.

Arrye Rosser [00:51:26] Gotcha. Were there any things you kind of stories that you remember about interactions between the park and landowners? Imagine you maybe weren’t involved in some of that direct conversations, but just curious about that.

Dan Betts [00:51:51] Well, there would be occasions when landowners would come into the office to meet with realty specialists occasionally. Most of that would have been done at people’s homes or their attorney’s office, I would think.

Arrye Rosser [00:52:05] Was there any, like, projects that just didn’t happen or that were particularly challenging? You sort of mentioned them, some of the big success stories and. And this little. I’m curious of which little piece of land on Hindsale, this little stinker, you know, the property that was difficult, that 10 acres of in holding. Were there any other ones that kind of come to your mind?

Dan Betts [00:52:36] Well, I guess from a title standpoint, we still have a thorn in our side about the railroad property because we acquired it back in 1987, but we still haven’t closed out our file because of the way it was. Title was held by the railroad, essentially. It just wasn’t a clean, straightforward transaction. So that’s a bit of a problem or a point of frustration. I’m not sure of any ones that got away, if you will. You know.

Arrye Rosser [00:53:15] Are you- Dennis explained a bit about the railroad properties, but could you explain it kind of in your- Like, what the complexity there is of the railroad lands?

Dan Betts [00:53:26] Well, Dennis knows that better than any alive. You know, the problem is the railroad just didn’t have full ownership of some of the lands that they were occupying and using. And so they gave us a quit claim deed, I guess it was. And we got what they had. In some areas they had put ownership, in other areas they didn’t. So it presents a problem for us to close out our file.

Arrye Rosser [00:54:03] This is like, you know, not having, let’s say, the subsurface rights or some other elements of it, maybe all different kinds of problems. Right?

Dan Betts [00:54:14] Well, it’s- That’s just the surface rights is the concern there. Yeah, yeah.

Arrye Rosser [00:54:21] Kind of going more generally to the regional level, how does the program at Cuyahoga Valley kind of compare to other parks? You know, you mentioned Indiana Dunes or Sleeping Bear. What was similar or different with what happened to Cuyahoga Valley compared to other sites?

Dan Betts [00:54:41] Well, I guess for Cuyahoga Valley, a couple things come to mind, I suppose, is it had pretty good congressional support in that Representative John Seiberling, who was the- I guess people may have referred to him as the father of the park or something like that, because he was pretty instrumental in getting the park established and lived there. So they had benefit of his support as well as- Was it Regula, the representative also quite instrumental and effective in getting funding provided to the park? Indiana Dunes had a Representative Visclosky, who was also very similar to those individuals and far as getting boundary expansions legislated and funds appropriated for acquisition. But the act, the acquisition process, I mean, it’s set by federal standards, so there’s not particularly a lot of variation between what you can do at one park and another. I mean, you have to look at each park’s legislation to see what authorities and limitations might be there. But the acquisition process is generally pretty standardized, and that’s done to protect landowners so that the agencies don’t abuse them, I guess. 

Arrye Rosser [00:56:05] Mm-hmm. I guess some of it is sort of the scale, or just one thing we’ve heard from the village of Peninsula is it’s this sort of perception that they would stay on the landscape and be part of the cultural landscape. And it was a lot of their contention was over the scale of acquisition being different than what Mr. Seiberling had initially told them, which is, from what I can tell, accurate, because I think he said something like 30 properties or something like- I don’t know what he was thinking, but it was a lot more than that. I think there’s kind of- That’s part of the disconnect there.

Dan Betts [00:56:51] And I guess I’m thinking - like at Buffalo River and Cuyahoga Valley - I’m thinking there might be some similarities in some regards, because I know you guys have entered into what you call the farm leasing program or something like that, where you own land, but you let other people lease it, let’s say, okay, at Buffalo National River, the Park Service back in the ’70s wound up buying a lot of property and fee, and some of it was improved with historic structures. And then they started thinking, okay, what are we going to do with these buildings? You know, this is a big obligation. So. So they did what they called a Boxley Valley Management Plan that I think the Denver Service Center or the regional office in Santa Fe was involved with. And they determined we really need to get some of this land back into private ownership. So they did a lot of land exchanges where they gave up fee title to land and put it back in private ownership, but retained scenic easements over it so that they could control the, you know, the scene there. I guess there’s some similarity in my mind between your program on the farm lease and that, you know.

Arrye Rosser [00:58:03] Yeah, I think probably the local residents would have preferred that that was the case. You know, if you talk to a resource management person, they probably prefer that we bought everything outright and didn’t have a thousand relationships to manage. It’s- It’s just kind of- It’s an interesting, philosophical, difficult question. You know, you’re dealing with land acquisition that there’s so many property owners to deal with. Let’s see, what is- How much did your- When you were working at a region, like, how much did the regional office deal with the Washington office? Like, what was that relationship like?

Dan Betts [00:58:46] Oh, we have ongoing communications with them all the time for support. You know, they- The staff that was there at the time, they had- They were very stable. They had been there for. Well, Bill Shaddox was the chief of lands. He retired about a year or two ago. He was in that position for 27 years. He had someone on his staff that had been working for almost 50 years in the lands program. So it was a lot of stability, a lot of support. When we came to them and said, we’ve got a project that we could use some funding for, they. Under a hardship scenario, they always provided us what we needed to get started on a project. And not just a Cuyahoga, but any park within the region when funding was available. Of course, we did have years where Congress was not appropriating money. In fact, they were clawing back money that they had previously allotted to us, us through the decision process. So we’ve had some up-and-down years. We’ve had eras where things were good and other times when it was pretty slim pickings.

Arrye Rosser [00:59:54] Yeah. How did the region stack up compared to other Midwest Region, in terms of other regions in the country? Were we relatively doing a lot of land acquisition or not so much?

Dan Betts [01:00:10] I think- I think we were doing as much as we could do with the staff we had available to us. We were always pretty maxed out. But, you know, the Western Region and the Southeast Region, all the regions were very busy. You know, Florida with the Everglades projects and Big Cypress and all that, that was, that was a huge effort. So I, I guess I don’t really have a good measure, but I would say we were, we were as busy as anybody could be and probably as busy as any everybody else was.

Arrye Rosser [01:00:50] How about, like, the regional directors? Did things change as regional directors changed, or was it- Were things always about the same in terms of, like, just how the lands program was run? I know a lot of federal- [crosstalk]

Dan Betts [01:01:10] My perspective, I would say we’ve had good relationships with our regional directors over the years, and they’ve been supportive of the things that we try and accomplish for them and the parks.

Arrye Rosser [01:01:25] Mm. So. So here’s the question about- And Dennis, by the way, says that, that he feels like you’re very widely regarded or highly regarded by the Washington lands office. He never gets you to say that because you’re modest. So kudos to you. I would imagine if you had people there that have been in the saddle for decades, you know, that they really knew their stuff.

Dan Betts [01:02:00] Yeah, I have a high regard for them and appreciate the support that they had provided us in many different fronts.

Arrye Rosser [01:02:11] Here’s some sort of questions that Dennis had suggested to us. So he wondered, how did you approach your work with property owners? How hard do you push them in negotiations, for example?

Dan Betts [01:02:25] Well, as I mentioned earlier, you know, our appraised value is all that we can offer. I just always treated people with respect. You know, you treat people like you would want to be treated yourself. You’re fair with them. You totally advise them as much as you can of what benefits they may have available to them. And it’s, it’s a willing seller environment. If they decide they don’t like our offer, they are certainly free to do what they want. It’s their property. But I always just tried to treat people fairly and honestly and not withhold any information of any kind and let them make their decision and try and help them any way they want. Anything they want from us that we can provide, I would, I would do.

Arrye Rosser [01:03:20] Seems like some of the, like, tough negotiation kind of things maybe came during the Army Corps of Engineers period. I don’t know if there are differences or just even timeframe-wise of what was happening.

Dan Betts [01:03:37] I know at Sleeping Bear Dunes back in the ’70s, there was a lot of strong arming going on, I believe, you know. But I, I can tell you about Cuyahoga Valley really, I’ve heard stories over the years about different reality. People that were probably didn’t have the landowner’s interest at heart, you know what I mean? They were trying to accomplish what they wanted to and they were perhaps more on the ruthless side about how that affected the landowner.

Arrye Rosser [01:04:16] Yeah, it’s unfortunate. It sounds like there was kind of a frenzy of buying in the ’70s that probably got a bit out of hand in some respects. Pressure to spend a lot of money I would imagine as well. Let me ask about just sort of workloads, like how do you manage the workloads stemming from having to serve all these different parks in the region, like just sort of the balance of it.

Dan Betts [01:04:42] Well, it’s just like being a juggler. You know, you just keep everything in the air as best you can and hope nothing hits the ground. You know, you just kind of move around from project to project and keep it, keep it on the forefront so that it doesn’t get ignored or fall through the cracks and explain to landowners that, yeah, unfortunately, I understand our process is a little slow. We have to contract for this, we have to contract for that. And you know, it’s just, it’s not a fast process. I mean it can take at a minimum eight or nine months and it can take up to a couple years for people. Try and let them know going in. Look, you got to understand it’s going to take us some time. We’ll be glad to work with you but you know, we’ve, we’ve. It’s like trying to get a drink of water out of a fire hydrant. You know, it’s a lot going on.

Arrye Rosser [01:05:45] Definitely it’s federal service. Did Dennis, his perspective was that some of your predecessor chiefs were more hands off with the park and they were relying more on the realty specialists to engage with the superintendent staff. And he, his impression was that you were more hands on person when you were in that role. Did you sort of have any reflections or kind of like do you think there was a difference or did you have a philosophy behind sort of how you did your work?

Dan Betts [01:06:26] Well, no, I basically just tried to do as good a job as I could. I just stayed active and involved with things as opposed to just turning something over to somebody and trusting that they will get it done. So I’ve just always kind of want to been right in the mix to make sure that something doesn’t get overlooked.

Arrye Rosser [01:06:51] Well, we certainly have appreciated that over the years. I know, these things, they can really drag on and that causes a lot of heartburn. Let’s see, do you have any perspectives on what some of the biggest hurdles in NPS land acquisition are today?

Dan Betts [01:07:09] Well, it oftentimes has been the contracting process. And in the last 15, probably more like 20 years, another problem has been getting appraisals. Because when George Bush was the president, he decided the BLM was doing some shape things, I guess, out in Arizona, some land exchange, and they decided that they were gonna pull all the appraisals out of appraisers out of the agency. So, you know, the Park Service used to have our own appraisers on staff, and they pulled all the appraisers out and established a new agency that’s responsible for all appraisal work. And that’s not really gone well. It’s had some ups and downs and some fits and starts and, you know, some efforts to try and get things corrected and then turn over in people. And it’s just, it’s not worked very well. And I understand it’s continuing to be that way. I told you, I came back to work in December. I’ve not been involved much with active projects. My focus has been to try and clean up our or fix old problems that I didn’t have time to work on when I was the chief. But I hear a lot of rumbling from the realty staff about how long it takes to get appraisals. And the contracting process for our title of work and ESAS is always taking longer than you want it to. I mean, the last year that I was working, I spent almost an entire year trying to get a title contract in place for Sleeping Bear Dunes. We had about 18 landowners that were willing to do business with us. But before we can order an appraisal, we have to get a title report. And it’s- We spent a year trying to get a title contract in place. So that was always a big frustration.

Arrye Rosser [01:09:11] Yeah, that’s hard to explain to the public of why that takes a long time. Are those- Is that kind of work always done in house? Do we contract? Are you saying that sometimes we contract it out?

Dan Betts [01:09:25] We- There are certain things that we always contract out. Environmental site assessments, title work and appraisals. So those are pretty big components to our program.

Arrye Rosser [01:09:37] Yeah, it is. Do you have, like, big standing contracts that you then do orders on? You know, where you get the contracts negotiated for up to five years or something like that. And, you know, that kind of thing, you’re doing task orders against it that’s the one.

Dan Betts [01:09:54] That’s what we were trying to do with Sleeping Bear was get something like that set up. But one of the problems we’ve got is we have parks scattered about the region and we can’t- There’s not really a company that does work in North Dakota and Ohio and Arkansas. And so, you know, we’re Missouri, we’re working in 13 states. So yeah, all parts the small projects. And so it’s an individual step by step thing each time. And you deal with title companies that haven’t dealt with us before and they don’t know our process. And we’ve got our own things that we have to do, which a lot of times I get registered in sans and things like that. These type companies are busy doing local stuff and making money. They don’t want to waste a bunch of time trying to get in step with us to do a one or two small projects that comes into play.

Arrye Rosser [01:10:45] Yeah, I’ve heard just locally in our area, like, it’s impossible to get surveyors that want to do any work on old properties because they can make more money doing modern properties that don’t go back and have a long history. So all that research is tough.

Dan Betts [01:11:05] Yeah, you’ve got some pretty wild descriptions over there. They go back to the, you know, 1890s or what have you. [inaudible] to the hickory tree, so you know.

Arrye Rosser [01:11:17] Exactly. [laughs] The rivers moved. All those things have happened over time. Do you want to maybe explain a little bit of your kind of working relationship with Dennis Ham? Like how did you guys work together, kind of what your different roles were?

Dan Betts [01:11:39] Well, I always felt like Dennis was part of our team because we worked so closely with him. You know, he helped coordinate a lot of things on the ground that needed to be coordinated with like a landowner or somebody else on the park staff on occasion, maybe. But our work, we were very. It made our life so much easier having somebody on the ground that understood our process and could help us work through problems that we ran into. Very critical and very helpful to have Dennis working with us.

Arrye Rosser [01:12:25] Thank you. Were there- I know part of why we’ve continued to have a lands person is because we have, you know, relationships. We have folks that are in retentions or very various things and they’re just- There’s a lot of maintenance to all these various parcels of land. Is that kind of typical in other of the larger parks that were created at the same time, like Indiana Dunes or Sleeping Bear? I mean, do they have a lands person on staff or does that all fall to the region to do that work?

Dan Betts [01:13:02] So St. Croix has a person that manages their lands program and you need it. You really do. I mean, we’ve. We’ve got all these boundaries and various properties. Some areas you own and fee, some areas you have a scenic easement over it. And somebody needs to monitor those things. Indiana Dunes, they are looking to fill a position. I think they were telling me they got some money from the IRA.

Arrye Rosser [01:13:31] Yeah, sounds about right.

Dan Betts [01:13:33] They’re going to use some money to establish a position that’s going to be dedicated to dealing with land stuff. I mean, because you got a lot of crazy boundaries and various issues that they need to be looked at. You need to pay attention to them.

Arrye Rosser [01:13:52] Yeah. Do you have any, you know, stories to tell with Dennis Ham just to describe kind of your work together and if there any come to mind?

Dan Betts [01:14:04] Well, one thing was the First Ladies property, that was a very complicated situation because the state of Ohio had provided some funding to the building which put some kind of restrictions or imposed on the property. And that was very complicated. And Dennis worked extensively with our solicitor’s office to work through that. At the time I was quite busy with some other projects, one of which was at Wind Cave. And it was, I always thought, very interesting to me, at least both. At one cave there was like a 5,000-acre ranch we were trying to buy. I was right in the middle of the park and the park service had been trying to buy that property for 20 years. And we got an opportunity to work on it with the conservation fund and we were fortunate enough to get funding which was like about six or seven million dollars. But there was a lot of complexities with that as well as the First Ladies property. And Dennis was a great help in getting those issues resolved with the solicitor’s office. So as it turned out, we worked on both of those projects for two or three years and they both closed the same week. So we bought a 5,500-acre ranch out at Winn Cave and we bought a quarter acre of property or got a donation of a quarter acre of a property in Canton, Ohio. It was just kind of coincidental that we worked on those for so long. They both closed within a week of each other. They were so different from one another.

Arrye Rosser [01:15:37] Yeah. Do you have any, like, striking memories of the Brandywine Golf Course property? I mean, that’s going to be a really critical one, I think, in the long term of our park because it’s so central. Everyone’s got a dream about what’s going to happen there. But do you have any stories sort of illustrate that land acquisition process, that

Dan Betts [01:16:01] was just a long drawn up process because at one point in time we were trying to just purchase an easement on the property so that it would remain as a golf course or it could have possibly been converted to agriculture. I believe an offer was made to the owner at the time and that wasn’t acceptable. And so then- And we each went our own separate ways for a couple of years until some on-the-ground things changed on their, on the landowner side of things so that the opportunity came up again to try and do something. And at that point it was- TPL was in the mix and we were trying to figure out what we could do to purchase the property. And we didn’t have funding available to march straight ahead, but we had the Washington office was supportive of trying to find a way to get us the funding. So there were just a lot of things that needed to be pulled together. And it took, you know, like I say, from when we tried to buy the easement on it to when we actually closed on it, you’re probably looking at a six, seven year span or more, I suppose. 

Arrye Rosser [01:17:14] Yeah, it’s challenging. I wondered if what, as you sort of look back- Well, one question I just wondered about is why you decided to come back to work and kind of come out of retirement to hash through some of this. It’s got to be some sticky things to try to figure out.

Dan Betts [01:17:36] Yeah. Sometimes I question myself why I’m doing that. You know, like I mentioned, at Buffalo River we had all those exchanges. They did, but unfortunately the regions got realigned back when that work was done. Arkansas was part of the southwest region out of Santa Fe. And when they shipped all the files up to our office, we were busy, buried with other work. So we never really got caught up. So there’s some dozen land exchanges that were done between say 85 and 2008 that never got closed out or completely shown in our records and so forth. So that’s been one thing I’ve been struggling with since I came back. I guess I had a small financial reason for coming back. It gave me an opportunity to be eligible for Social Security benefits. So that was part of it. But the other part of it was, you know, the last couple, well, the last eight months or so that I worked, we were not in the office because of COVID. So my closeout was not what I had hoped as far as being able to wrap things up. So I felt an obligation to try and come back. You know, I’ve been working in the regional office since 1989. So I have a lot of institutional memory about a lot of different things and a lot of different parts that I felt I could offer to try and help fix or repair or close out a lot of different things. So that’s why I’m doing it, I guess.

Arrye Rosser [01:19:17] I’m sure they really appreciate you tackling it. It’s the kind of thing that probably doesn’t happen easily if you weren’t the one doing it.

Dan Betts [01:19:27] Yeah. So the Michael Bachman’s the current Chief of Lands and he’s got a lot on his plate with active current projects. And so my focus is trying to make amends, right, on some older projects that have gone wanting. You know, our office has always been so busy. We can. We can only do what’s in front of us and once. Sometimes we can’t look back, see what got missed.

Arrye Rosser [01:19:53] Yeah. Well, kind of reflecting back on your career, what are you most proud of accomplishing?

Dan Betts [01:20:02] Well, I guess as I mentioned earlier, over 400 properties that purchased throughout the region and helped conserve a lot of different properties. The wind cave acquisition of the ranch was a big one. And Indiana Dunes, I had some very good successes there on some projects that were. Took two or three years or more to get accomplished that were pretty significant for that park. We were able to close out something at St. Croix a couple years ago where the state of Wisconsin owned some property within the Riverway. They couldn’t donate it to us. We couldn’t buy it from them. So we had National Park Trust get involved in the National Park Trust work with the state of Wisconsin. They did an exchange where the state was trying to consolidate their ownership in a different part of the state. So the National Park Trust bought some of the land where the state wanted to be, which was well outside the park. I mean, it was counties and counties away from the park. One and so National Park Trust bought some of the land that the state wanted to get, and they did an exchange with the state so that we could buy the property from National Park Trust. So that was about 230 acres that the park was very concerned about if it wound up being developed.

Arrye Rosser [01:21:26] Wow.

Dan Betts [01:21:27] So we’ve had a lot of fun experiences, interesting experiences, some successes and some failures. Some things that look at Indiana Dunes, a project that I worked on since 1992 is still hanging around, is an unresolved issue.

Arrye Rosser [01:21:46] What are some of the things that, like, hold up these projects where they just sort of get snagged into something that’s sort of hard to reconcile?

Dan Betts [01:21:58] Oftentimes it’s a title issue where ownership is questionable. And it’s difficult trying to figure out how you can get that resolved if you don’t have a willing partner that’s willing to stick with you and solve the problem. Sometimes environmental conditions of the property prevent you from doing something, or the lack of funding can also be a problem. I mean, we had opportunities at St. Croix back in 15 years ago that we couldn’t act on because we had no funding for the park. But we had money at Indiana Dunes or Cuyahoga. But Congress appropriates money. It goes to a park. You don’t have money, you can’t act.

Arrye Rosser [01:22:47] How does the Park Service have, like, a process that it goes to, let’s say, Trust for Public Land or one of its other partners that they prioritize that kind of thing and sort of say, hey, this is like our sticking point, or does this sort of not really work that way? You know what I’m saying? Like, most at risk, you sort of see that maybe around battlefields or some things like that. He said the most at risk properties in the Park Service or something like that.

Dan Betts [01:23:22] Yeah, well, within our ability, we do that as much as we can. We’ve worked with the National Battlefield Foundation on stuff at Wilson’s Creek. Sometimes there are local land trust, like at Voyageurs National Park, there’s a organization, an association that likes to help us with projects, so they’ll step in and try and buy something and hold it until we can buy it. Indiana Dunes has a couple of small land trusts - Shirley Hines Fund and Save the Dunes - that also do those kind of things as well. I mentioned the conservation fund on the Wind Cave transaction. Sure. I mean, when you’re talking about a big transaction like that with TPL, the Blossom property, you know, there’s coordination for sure, done at our Washington office level with their executives to try and line things up so that we can try and get appropriations in line so that we can act on some of these bigger projects. These bigger projects absolutely need some coordination.

Arrye Rosser [01:24:27] Yeah. What have you liked best about being in this career path?

Dan Betts [01:24:36] Well, I’ve always appreciated the fact that what I’m involved with and accomplishing is going to be something that’s going to be appreciated for generations to come. You know, I sometimes think, you know, 40, 50, 60 years from now, somebody will come to this place. So I get some satisfaction out of that. Longevity. If not longevity, but legacy. Trying to conserve land for future generations is. I’m proud of that.

Arrye Rosser [01:25:18] How often do you get to actually go and see the Land tracks that you’re working on. Like do some of these spaces, places that you don’t get to visit for work or do you get a. You usually kind of come out on the ground and get to see what you’re working on. Or is it all just done digitally now?

Dan Betts [01:25:37] Well, like at Indiana Dunes, I had to go there a lot because we were doing. We were buying a small community, so we had a lot of relocation work. So there was a lot of back and forth going out to the park. Yeah, I mean it’s. On occasion there’s a lot of times I bought a property without ever setting foot on there, seeing it. But you know, there’s instances for sure when you get an opportunity to go out and see these parts parcels before you acquire them. Like the Wind Cave property, we were out there before it was purchased and inspecting the property and you know, we were able to do a lot of what we do without going on site. [01:26:16] But when it comes to the relocation piece, it’s almost necessary to get out there to try and help the people figure out where they’re going and explain their benefits and see what their options are. But a lot of properties we can purchase without being on site. At those St. Croix properties, we worked on them for three or four years. I never saw them. So it kind of varies.

Arrye Rosser [01:26:42] Is. Do you find like working with the landowners, are people mostly grateful that their properties. I’m sure it’s changed over time, but in the- And I don’t know if different decades, the tenor of it all was different. But like the degree to which people are really grateful that their properties can be go into conservation or preserved versus other outcomes that might happen or if it was a contentious relationship.

Dan Betts [01:27:17] Well, we’re working in a willing seller environment. So generally speaking, when we’re successful in purchasing something, the owners are okay with it. I know I worked a lot at Hopewell and there was some. A fair amount of contentiousness or disagreements about things. But I do remember purchasing one property and standing there talking to the son of the people that own the property. And he expressed that he’s pleased that the property is going to be preserved. So there are where people do like to see their property continue to stay in the condition it’s in.

Arrye Rosser [01:28:02] Yeah, we certainly are. I feel like we’re starting to see maybe that very oldest generation that perhaps was involved in the land transactions. You know, some of them have passed or are, you know, and we’re having more like the adult children and people are quite curious about their family Heritage in the national park, it tends to be usually pretty positive. Like, you know, people are just wanting to think about their memories or how we represent them in our stories. You know, it’s kind of a mixed bag, you know, sometimes still are dealing a lot with tensions of things that happened in the past. But I’ve noticed some change in it, especially as like our park has become more like the amenities of the park are more obvious. I think in the earlier stage there wasn’t as much, you know, you didn’t have that sense of it being a park as much because it was still kind of building out all the public facilities of the park. So people didn’t kind of feel like it was worth it. But now it’s a nicer place to visit. And so people enjoy being able to bring family members to experience that. So it’s kind of interesting how these things kind of change over time. Have you had a chance to come back to Cuyahoga Valley? I wondered like your history of coming to visit the park, our park.

Dan Betts [01:29:42] Well, I was out there for the blossom celebration, but I was going to mention that you were talking about that. I left Cuyahoga in ’81 and then I went to St. Croix, I went to Seattle to the trail. Then I came back to Omaha. And within a short period of time of getting here in Omaha, they wanted me to go out and do a land survey at Cuyahoga. So I went out there would have been probably late ’89 even, I suppose. So that was about an eight-year time frame. And what was very interesting to me was I could see a difference between ’81 and ’89. When I was there in the late ’70s and ’81, it was kind of hard to tell where the park was. Even though I was doing the mapping and stuff. It just had a feel about it because there were houses there, businesses inside the park and outside the park. Okay. It all just kind of seemed a lot of same to it. And when I came back in ’89, over all those years, you know, a lot of the houses had maybe if they took a reserved interest, it expired and the house got tore down. And so there was a lot of stuff within the park that seemed more natural. And it seemed to me like there was a lot more development outside the park that was moving closer to the park. So it was striking to me the difference between in the park and out of the park in ’89 than when in ’81.

Arrye Rosser [01:31:17] Yeah. I mean, the time that I’ve been here, I came in ’93 when the Towpath was done and the Environmental [Education] Center demo work was just starting and all kinds of things. And I’ve seen that too, especially the housing developments kind of coming up onto the edges of the. The park. But there’s also been a lot of land acquisition by our Metro park partners, so in West Creek Conservancy. So it’s not all a negative story, actually. There’s a lot more that’s come into public land ownership in the time that I’ve lived here. I think people in northeast Ohio really support their parks overall. Like, they pass the levies, like 75 percent in multiple counties to support their metroparks. So I think it’s like all boats seem to lift together on that front. [laughs] Yeah, it’s fascinating. Well, thank you so much for your time. I wondered if there was just any other things that you’d like to share. Anything that we missed in our questioning?

Dan Betts [01:32:27] I guess I would apologize for maybe taking longer than I should have and trying to fumble through some of my answers, and I hope that they were full enough to give you some sense of what I recall and what I remember.

Arrye Rosser [01:32:43] Oh, well, hey, I thought you did great. And it’s always miraculous that any of us can remember stuff back into the ’70s and ’80s time ago.

Dan Betts [01:32:59] There was one kind of funny story that I thought about was when I. When we were doing some condemnation work there, and the U.S. attorney, Richard French, did a lot of the work for the park. He was the Assistant U.S. attorney up in Cleveland, and he had me going out and doing some floodplain studies on some properties. So we were doing some elevation work and stuff. So they sent me out to this property was in the Boston Mills area, as I recall, along the river. And I had some young Black fellow from the maintenance shop that was helping me do the survey work. So him and I go out there and we met with the son of the people that owned the property, and he kind of showed us around. Yeah, this is the property here, and there’s where corner is I know of. And so stuff like that. And so he left and we went about our business. So this young Black fella, he’s in front of me cutting some of the vegetation out of the way. Because when you do surveys, you got to get that vegetation so they can see what you’re doing, right? So I’m standing at the transit, and this guy’s, you know, 50, 80 feet away from me. All of a sudden he starts yelling and screaming and stuff. I go over there and he’s- He was like- He was- He had a machete in his hand. And he was like, almost like threatening this guy who showed up because he just scared the heck out of him. So what it was, it was this same guy who had showed us the property, went back home, changed himself into some fatigues. He had a German shepherd, and he’s sitting there talking to his German shepherd in German, given its orders. And so we’re trying to figure out what the problem is here. And this guy basically chased us off the property and we’re throwing all our stuff in the truck and trying to get out of here. That was kind of wild scene. But in looking back at it, it is somewhat funny, but it’s just what it is, you know.

Arrye Rosser [01:34:55] Oh my gosh. Now I’m like super curious about what was the timeframe? Like what year do you think that was?

Dan Betts [01:35:03] Oh, that would have been ’78, ’79, I’m sure somewhere around in there. Do you remember the office and told my boss what happened and he got all the U.S. attorney and they got it all sorted out. We went out there a day or two later and continued doing what we were supposed to be doing.

Arrye Rosser [01:35:21] Holy smokes. What was the- Do you remember where the property was? I’m picturing on the river.

Dan Betts [01:35:28] I don’t recall specifically. I’m thinking it was north of Boston Mills Road stance Stanford Road area or something like that, maybe, you know.

Arrye Rosser [01:35:36] Yeah, Stanford Road, somewhere up that way.

Dan Betts [01:35:41] Yeah.

Arrye Rosser [01:35:41] Yeah.

Dan Betts [01:35:42] And then we bought the only bar in the Valley. It was there at that intersection.

Arrye Rosser [01:35:48] What was that?

Dan Betts [01:35:50] There used to be a bar in the Valley there, right by that-

Arrye Rosser [01:35:57] Where was the bar? I don’t somehow never heard the bar story.

Dan Betts [01:36:01] Boston Mills Road at Riverview Road, I think it is area, right?

Arrye Rosser [01:36:09] Yeah. By the ski area.

Dan Betts [01:36:11] Yeah. There was a guy- There was a place called Terry’s Lumber. It was kind of like a little hard door. And then there was a little bar right next to that.

Arrye Rosser [01:36:20] Wow. The bar I had never heard about. What was the name of the bar? Do you remember?

Dan Betts [01:36:28] It got closed not too long after I moved to the area, as I recall.

Arrye Rosser [01:36:33] Huh. Yeah. That’s interesting. Huh? Well, Dan, it’s been a total pleasure. We’ve learned a lot. So I’ll circle back with Dennis about some of these stats and see what he thinks would be the kind of a good way to characterize kind of the volume of the work. But we really appreciate your time.

Dan Betts [01:37:00] Thank you. So apologize for taking so much of your time.

Arrye Rosser [01:37:03] Oh, no, no, it’s always a pleasure. We run as long as people are willing to talk to us.

Dan Betts [01:37:10] All right. Thanks a lot. Take care.

Arrye Rosser [01:37:12] Take care. Bye-bye.

Dan Betts [01:37:13] Bye.

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