Kim Woodford interview, 2022

Abstract

Kim Woodford is the leader and founder of Journey on Yonder and former Outdoor Afro representative. Journey on Yonder is a northeast Ohio based inclusive outdoor group whose mission is "to inspire Black Indigenous People of Color (BIPOC) to have enjoyable and healthy connections with nature that will lead to increased health outcomes and stronger environmental stewardship through mindful, cultural, educational, and social outdoor experiences." This interview was conducted in two sessions on 27 July and 02 August 2022.

Interviewee

Woodford, Kim (interviewee)

Interviewer

Rosser, Arrye (interviewer); Schnack, Erich (participant)

Project

Cuyahoga Valley National Park

Date

7-27-2022

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

174 minutes

Recommended Citation

"Kim Woodford interview, 2022" (2022). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 343018.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/1431

Related Resources

CVNP @ Cleveland Voices

Transcript

Arrye Rosser [00:00:00] We’re recording now and I’ll just do a little bit of background stuff for the tape. So this is the 2021 African American perspectives oral history project. I’m talking to Kim Smith Woodford from Journey on Yonder, also called Joy. And my name is Arrye Rosser. I’m with Cuyahoga Valley National Park. My tech person is Erich Schnack. The date today is July 26, 2021. And we’re all speaking by phone from different locations in Northeast Ohio. So I had two just like logistical questions. First of all, Kim, did you get the release form from us?

Kim Woodford [00:00:48] I did, I just saw that. And I will get that signed, I’ll print it off, sign it and get it back over to you today.

Arrye Rosser [00:00:55] Fantastic, thank you. And then are you, do you have time limits for when we need to be done? Not that we’ll talk forever, but is there a particular time we should be watching the clock for?

Kim Woodford [00:01:06] I’d say by three if we could. Only because I’m at the other job.

Arrye Rosser [00:01:11] Yeah, that’s okay. If you, if we don’t get through all of our questions, let’s not feel rushed. Can we just schedule a follow up time to talk?

Kim Woodford [00:01:22] Absolutely, absolutely.

Arrye Rosser [00:01:24] Okay, so we’ll just let it flow and then if we’re, if it feels like we haven’t gotten to something, don’t worry, we’ll just, we’ll work it out.

Kim Woodford [00:01:34] So I do have a question now. Will this be edited too?

Arrye Rosser [00:01:37] Yeah, that’s a great question. So our, the, we’re adding these oral histories to our larger oral history collection, which right now is in a lot of different places. You know, some of them are public facing through Cleveland State’s website. But for most part they’re just sitting in, you know, our digital files. And we’re in the process of trying to figure out how our whole collection kind of gets shared with the long interviews. But the way that we’ll mostly be publicly using this is taking out like excerpts and then putting in. We’ll probably do like a profile about you on our website. And, and we may have some other themes that we develop depending on the, what we’re hearing in the oral histories that might be articles. So I think they’ll be like web articles that, that, that we’ll work with. And then it’ll also just be an archive of archival material.

Kim Woodford [00:02:39] And where can I go to find it? Because if I go onto the National Parks website-

Arrye Rosser [00:02:45] It’ll take us a while, but we will, we can make it available. We can share the digital file with you. As soon as we’re done, Erich will. Can export it as a digital file. So if you want, you’re welcome to your own a copy of it. It’ll take us- It’ll take us a little while to get them on the website because we probably need to pay for a transcription. And we’re just kind of working through the- We have probably like 400 oral histories.

Kim Woodford [00:03:16] Oh, wow.

Arrye Rosser [00:03:18] Not for this project, but overall. So that’s kind of become a bit of a bigger monster of- Because to put them online, we have to have them fully have to be accessible for people with disabilities. So. Yeah, so that- That’s sort of- I see us, though, working through, Erich’s with us for a while longer. We have a second grant, too, that we’re applying for that’s got a women’s theme that will help us just get all of these into a product, you know, into public-facing things. But that we’re sort of gathering the information is our biggest priority is talking to people and then as much of the processing and turning them into stories that. That could drag or it could go kind of quick. And we’ll just- We’ll see how many, how many oral histories we do and just where we get on the writing side of it. But you’re welcome to anything that we have and hopefully- And also I think the work that we’ve done with other people for the work that you’re doing, I think would be quite interesting. So.

Kim Woodford [00:04:27] Okay.

Arrye Rosser [00:04:28] If you want sound bites on from various folks. 

Kim Woodford [00:04:32] Oh, so I could- But could I use bits and pieces of this? Something safe for my- Like, my website or-

Arrye Rosser [00:04:39] Sure.

Kim Woodford [00:04:40] If I’m doing some things to promote joy. Wonderful.

Arrye Rosser [00:04:44] Yeah. It becomes public domain, so, you know, it’s just out there for whatever purpose would be useful. Yeah.

Kim Woodford [00:04:55] Okay, terrific.

Arrye Rosser [00:04:55] And we’ll- we’ll also be- When we profile you on the web, we’ll be tagging our articles in a way that it won’t just be on the Cuyahoga Valley’s website. It’ll be on- It’ll come up anytime anyone’s looking around for, like, African American themes on the National Park Service’s website.

Kim Woodford [00:05:16] Okay. So just so you’re aware, I’m building my website now, getting some things together, and I would, you know, maybe love to be able to, once you all have linked it, once you got it, have it together that I can link it in on my page as well.

Arrye Rosser [00:05:34] Yeah, yeah, that sounds perfect. And when we go to work on the writing side, we’ll circle back with you on what we’re writing so it won’t be like some shocker or something-

Kim Woodford [00:05:44] Of how it’s coming.

Arrye Rosser [00:05:45] Sure, sure. You can see, you know, so you’ll have, you know, if you’re like, oh, that’s like, you know, now that I, I see that, that’s not quite what I meant or something. That’s- That’s all stuff that we can work on together.

Kim Woodford [00:05:58] Sure, sure.

Arrye Rosser [00:05:59] Does that make sense?

Kim Woodford [00:06:00] Sure does. Thanks, Arrye.

Arrye Rosser [00:06:02] So. So we’ll go- The way I’ve got these questions structured is the first things are just some real basic background information about you. So could you tell us what your full name is?

Kim Woodford [00:06:15] Sure. It’s Kimberly K. Woodford. That’s Wood like the tree, ford like the truck.

Arrye Rosser [00:06:24] And what year were you born?

Kim Woodford [00:06:31] 1964.

Arrye Rosser [00:06:35] I’m in ’66. So you’re just a little older than me. We’re pretty close. We’re pretty close, yeah. Tell us about your family growing up, just in general terms.

Kim Woodford [00:06:49] I grew up in a big family of 10. Five boys, five girls. And we grew up out in Lake County. Probably at that time it was a little more rural than what it is now. Grew up playing, you know, in the outdoors. That being more like in everyone’s yards, you know, be it in the streets or the yards. And then we had small pocket parks that were used for softball, baseball, athletic type of uses, and, you know, cutting paths through open areas, open meadows. But it was pretty great, pretty straightforward growing up in a small town where I would say our racial makeup was either Black or white. And then later on we had a small pocket of Vietnamese immigrants come through. So we had that, if you would call it, you know, more integrated, it was with Vietnamese that I can recall. Everyone seemed to get along fairly well. You know, you would have your racial issues, of course, and. Yeah, that’s it. You know, going to church, that was really integral part of who we were growing up in my family anyways. My mother and father both were very instrumental and committed in making sure that we grew up in the church and knew where our values were, which a lot of them were formed through, of course, our religious upbringing. I was a pretty quiet child, but adventurous through looking because of my other older brothers and sisters. And because of that, I’ve sustained a few injuries, from a broken tooth to a busted lip, a broken nose, but I wouldn’t take it back. Yeah, that’s. If that’s. Would you like more information?

Arrye Rosser [00:09:25] I’ll ask you some more detailed ones as we go on. Okay. So what sort of work did your parents do?

Kim Woodford [00:09:36] Factory work. Both parents were part of that- I guess you could say part of the Great Migration, southern migration, where they both came up from Mississippi, from Holly Springs and Kosciusko, Mississippi, for a better life as young people. As young people, they came up.

Arrye Rosser [00:10:03] Oh, keep going. Around what time did they come up?

Kim Woodford [00:10:08] Oh, they came- My parents came up from Mississippi, likely in the 19- Late 1960- Or I’m sorry, my parents both came up at separate times to Ohio from Mississippi in the early 1960s. They came up to find, you know, better work and a better life than what they endured in the segregated, highly segregated South.

Arrye Rosser [00:10:41] Why did they choose Northeast Ohio?

Kim Woodford [00:10:47] I’m not sure why they chose Northeast Ohio to come to. And I can’t. And there wasn’t any other stops in between that I’m aware of. I will- I will say for my mother, I don’t know what the reason was for my father. He had. He already had family who had already migrated up from the South. He had other siblings that were here who worked at this manufacturing plant, coal manufacturing, as it was called, and I think it still exists today. It was- And it was very, I guess, what you call an in encased, encompassed campus, if you will, where there was shanty housing on the property or very much near it, which I hear, by the way, are some. There’s some very ghostly stories that took place down there. 

Arrye Rosser [00:11:52] Yeah.

Kim Woodford [00:11:52] So they moved and worked at the coal manufacturing plant.

Arrye Rosser [00:11:56] What was it called?

Kim Woodford [00:11:59] Coe.

Arrye Rosser [00:12:01] Huh. That’s interesting. And so it sounds like. Was your dad kind of recruited by family members to come on up and join the rest of the family working for Coe.

Kim Woodford [00:12:11] Coe, as in C, O, E. And I think it’s like in coal from a- It could be particle. I don’t know for sure, but I’m thinking it was part of what was from the coal - C, O, A, L - manufacturing, because I always thought it was coal, C, O, A, L, as well, but it’s C, O, E. Coe.

Arrye Rosser [00:12:36] Yeah. That’s interesting. So did you- Were you always living in, mostly living in the same place near where you’re- Were you, like, in the housing for your dad’s job, or did you guys live separate from that?

Kim Woodford [00:12:53] I grew up- I may have spent, like, days down in the coal manufacturing, that, that area, before we moved to our first and only family house further up in Painesville, where it was, you know, it’s a bungalow. Ask me how we all managed to squeeze into that little bungalow. Well, we did with, you know, bedrooms on, well, every level, including sleeping areas in on one side of our basement.

Arrye Rosser [00:13:33] Oh, wow, that’s amazing. Where did you go to school?

Kim Woodford [00:13:37] I went to Harvey High School. My Harvey High School was my, is my alma mater, but junior high school was called then Walnut, but it changed names to Hobart Middle School in acknowledgement of one of the city’s honorable superintendent. I think it was Robert F. Hobart.

Arrye Rosser [00:14:06] Yeah. And did you study in college?

Kim Woodford [00:14:11] I did.

Arrye Rosser [00:14:13] Where did you go and what did you study?

Kim Woodford [00:14:16] I went to Columbia College in Chicago where I studied communications. I used to love folk I saw on television. That then was Dorothy Fuldheim, who was very feisty. Of course, if you don’t know Dorothy full time, you really didn’t grow up in Northeast Ohio because she is an icon. You have to check her out. She’s a legend. And of course, we knew, of course, the national, on the national scale. There was Walter Cronkite. With this CBS Evening News.

Arrye Rosser [00:14:56] So were you kind of interested in journalism then?

Kim Woodford [00:14:59] I was.

Arrye Rosser [00:15:00] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s really interesting. I didn’t know that about you. So. Yeah, fantastic. Go ahead.

Kim Woodford [00:15:11] No, go ahead.

Arrye Rosser [00:15:12] Oh, I was just gonna say, how do you identify yourself culturally? Just doesn’t take. I know you, but-

Kim Woodford [00:15:23] Oh sure, sure, sure. I grew up a household. Again, we’re African Americans. Mother and father, African Americans from the South.

Arrye Rosser [00:15:33] Oh, yeah, sorry, keep going.

Kim Woodford [00:15:35] The African Americans from the south. Where right now, I, I, I’ve been told we have some Native American in our bloodline. I need to go ahead and get that 23andMe test to hopefully give me a little more of my history.

Arrye Rosser [00:15:57] Yeah. Have you, do you feel like your identity as a sort of African American whose families come from the south, is that really central to yourself, to your sense of what’s important to you?

Kim Woodford [00:16:13] And what do you mean when you say that? What’s important?

Arrye Rosser [00:16:16] Oh, like how, like how important is your own cultural identity to you?

Kim Woodford [00:16:23] It’s- My own cultural identity as an African American is very important to me. It always has been. It. Well, it’s gone through a journey, to tell you the truth. Growing up in an African American household, I always knew I was African American or black. In this town that was primarily majority white. We celebrated cultures or lived in a household where we celebrated soul food. Other small bits of our African American culture through food where they’re, you know, as far as any cultural rituals, we did not have. But whatever it was, was, was the culture was, was pretty prominent through our religion and how we worshiped and, and fellowshipped.

Arrye Rosser [00:17:33] Did it?

Kim Woodford [00:17:33] Which I think is when I say. And how we worshiped and fellowshipped was an extension of how we worshiped and fellowshipped my parents in the south, in the rural South. And when I think about it, it even goes further back to the slavery days of how we worshiped and celebrated and how the- And this is probably going off the question, but how the church and the pastor was a central part of our community. Our community leader actually-

Arrye Rosser [00:18:16] Was, is your- Was your church- Growing up, was everybody African American?

Kim Woodford [00:18:22] Yes, everyone in the church was African American. The pastor was African American. And, and they were, you know, and all of the members, for the most part, were members that were a part of our community. People that we were. That we all grew up together in the same village, if you will. Sometimes we had a couple. Well, I’d say there might have been a couple of families who lived what we refer to as crosstown, Which, which was there, was that the dividing line, if you will. Richmond street was the dividing line. That signal signaled one side of town over the other.

Arrye Rosser [00:19:04] And you had your dad’s side of the family, right? So were there a lot of people in your church that were your relatives and you had a big family yourself?

Kim Woodford [00:19:14] Yeah, but actually, most of my dad’s relatives lived on the other side of town. So we were not- we were not members of the same church.

Arrye Rosser [00:19:29] That’s interesting. So it was like. It sounds like your church was really the center of your African American cultural experience of, you know, defining kind of what that meant, and it was a southern flavor to that cultural experience. Yeah, that sounds cool. Well, let’s talk more about nature, since that’s a big interest to us in this oral history series. Tell us just about your relationship to nature when you were a child.

Kim Woodford [00:20:08] One of my first memories when we speak about nature as a child, for me, always draws me back to my upstairs bedroom, where I would often sit by the window and just listen to the natural sounds. It could be either of, you know, my brothers and sisters and their friends playing outside. But what I was really captivated by was the serenading of the birds, the chirping and the rhythm of the birds chirps or calls, if you will, how they did it. And sometimes I’d write little poetry to go with that, or I would work to see if I could mimic the sounds of the bird calls to see if they would respond. Sometimes in my mind, I think they did, but who knows? But that’s my first connection to nature. That’s my first Thought that comes to mind when I think of nature because it. I was just so captivated by the birds. I may never really had a chance to see where the bird was at any given moment because of the trees, but I could always hear them and that made me feel great.

Arrye Rosser [00:21:42] How old were you as a child at this time?

Kim Woodford [00:21:46] I must have been about. Oh that. I can recall that. About 7ish. Old enough where - 7, 8 - where I can write, where I could write out, you know, some sonnets. Because we learned about that in school at the time.

Arrye Rosser [00:22:08] So growing up, were there any special outdoor activities that you do with your family members? 

Kim Woodford [00:22:15] Out in nature?

Arrye Rosser [00:22:17] Mm-hmm. Or just outdoor. Doesn’t even have to be so neat. You know. What we would consider is outdoor recreation now.

Kim Woodford [00:22:26] Well, our outdoor recreation we had a fairly large yard with all my. Of my 10, nine other siblings. We had to. And we just had a neighborhood where we invited all the kids over and we would, you know, have cookouts, get hot dogs, hamburger cookouts. So we celebrated a lot in our. Within our own neighborhood, in our own yard. Any other nature, let me think other nature of engagements. On a, on a fairly regular, we would go down to what we call our flats, which was a rec park, a community recreation park, where we would go to one of the reserve, one of the pavilions and have a big cookout, a family cookout. But with the family cookouts, we didn’t venture much into the water because there was the grand river that flowed at that point time. It, I always remember it as just being this raging river, huge river that often overflowed its banks. And we know of a couple of, of people who lost their child and to that river, raging waters. So we didn’t get close to that, but we did stay around the, the, the, the pavilion and maybe the pond area was it.

Arrye Rosser [00:24:12] Sometimes you hear a lot about African Americans not having access to public places to learn how to swim. Was that something that was an issue with, you know, kids drowning or, or was it more just that the river was hazardous?

Kim Woodford [00:24:32] I would say that the river was just hazardous. That river raged. Because I do know of some people who swim. I think my brother, my oldest brother Bobby, as a swimmer, but he didn’t, he didn’t typically go into the Grand River. And as far as access to swimming, learning to swim areas, we did not have access. There was no place in our community where we could go. It was only at the YMCA. Oh and I must say and, and that was connected to our schools or elementary schools. And for me, I had a bad experience in one of those classes where I went, ventured into the center of the pool, the deeper end, and just- I thought I was dying. Of course they rescued me and- And I- I had been skittish to the water ever since, but I will. Ever since. And because of that, that ever since here, within the last six years, five six years, I’ve made a concerted effort. Oh, no, I will. I’ll even say the last nine years have made an effort to step outside of that. That zone of being that. That fear zone, if you will, to learn how to swim, to overcome my fears. And that is that I did that in a form I’ve even- I’ve even conducted learn to swim programs, believe it or not, and working and working and collaborating with local community rec center here in Cleveland.

Arrye Rosser [00:26:21] I think it’s a big gap. I mean, it certainly isn’t just in the African American community, but I’m not a strong swimmer. I always kind of feel like they ought to. And I know other folks that just never really learned how to swim. So it seems like the adult. Don’t be embarrassed. Well.

Kim Woodford [00:26:41] Well, I’ll have to say you’re probably one of the few white Americans that I know of that does not, that kind of have that issue.

Arrye Rosser [00:26:52] I swim. But I was never a good swimmer. I was always in like, the- Like the not great swimming group. You know what I mean? So I like, had a bazillion swim lessons, but I was never particularly good. I’m like, look the same way too, from drowning, but not really.

Kim Woodford [00:27:14] Yeah, right. I’m like, if I just flip over on my back and try to float towards- Or at least what is that stroke to where the land is? I’ll- I think I’ll be okay.

Arrye Rosser [00:27:24] Yeah. Yeah. I have like survival swimming skills or something. What- what about like, gardening? If your family was really into food, were they growing food?

Kim Woodford [00:27:37] Yes. In the back of our yard, our parents put. You know, created a garden. And it wasn’t a- it wasn’t huge, but it was a decent size. Where I could recall they did a lot of the beans, tomatoes, carrots, peppers, onions, you know, really, you know, that wonderful type of veggies and fruits, if you will, that I’ve come to love now. My parents even had a- or was part of a community garden where they had another plot with other folks that they’d also work. And as far as with the kids, I recall working with my parents, mostly my mother, though, in our backyard garden and helping to, you know, weed and learn how to pick peas from the vines. Tomatoes. It was- And the cucumbers especially, because I remember those, those were so fun to pick. And so yeah, that’s where I learned about gardening and I learned about gardening through doing. I didn’t learn that, you know, you, you had to you. I didn’t know about crop rotation, but I knew that I needed to go in there and weed it. And I learned how to weed the garden properly. I learned how to use garden tools like a hoe and to help with that. And again, just- And then the harvest, which was the fun part.

Arrye Rosser [00:29:31] What sort of childhood experiences led you to your current work as an environmental leader? Like when you kind of are out there representing yourself in, in that work, do you, do you pull back to some of these experiences that kind of ground you?

Kim Woodford [00:29:51] I do, I do. There’s the experiences that I shared with you which were the really great cool experiences as well as I didn’t. The one unpleasant experience was stepping on a bee. And my first and my first of only two stings ever stand out to me. And then learning of having those experiences have shaped and what my work and my love for this space because I think I’ve always had a love for nature, a love for conservation, a disdain for littering. [And a need to repurpose and find a way to reuse in order to not pollute our planet. That’s how I learned it. So what I take into the work that I do with Journey on Yonder is simply that to help people to capture that feeling of joy and wanderlust of our natural world and through that understanding the benefit that you get from it. And, and as a young child, I couldn’t articulate that, how, how amazing being in nature made me feel. But I want to help people to articulate that now because let’s as we will never forget what, how we felt, how the experience made you feel, particularly in, in this respect nature. But you do know that hey, how can I help others feel it and then be able to embrace it and, and move forward in life, engaging in space, in nature and becoming, having that relationship to connect and, or build a relationship with nature and, and that leading to a better, becoming a better environmental steward, or should I say a better steward of the environment?

Arrye Rosser [00:32:36] Do you think was there someone in particular who inspired you in this direction when you were young or maybe not even directly but indirectly? Like do you look back to a certain relationship and, or time that you spent with someone else that kind of how, how you ended up where you are now?

Kim Woodford [00:32:58] I think it might have been just a lot with that time was with my mother. And so she loved to garden. Not just a veggie garden, she loved to do flower. You know, she loved her flower bed, her flower garden. One of the most memorable experiences, lasting experience, that I have of my mother is when the two of us shared time planting tulips around her small maple tree. And that was two years before we lost her to breast cancer.

Arrye Rosser [00:33:42] I’m sorry.

Kim Woodford [00:33:46] In school, in elementary and junior high school and even high school, we had field trips that would include time outdoors like camp climb or when I was in the marching band. We had took a week off and we went to a campground to work on our, you know, marching band techniques and what have you. And I personally didn’t. Don’t recall feeling those trips as enjoyable. Enjoyable because I was in a space that I didn’t know anything about or just felt uncomfortable with. And in- At that time, no, I didn’t. Being probably one or two persons of color, you know, just not having that connection where I would. That’s where I would see a lot of my white peers, you know, really just walking and engaging in that space. So naturally where I- I just didn’t- I was fearful of- I didn’t know it was in the woods. I didn’t be a wild animal or, you know, you don’t know about as far as people and the distrust of what, who could harm you out there in the woods and no one would ever know. That’s the fear. So those are- Those were the things that I kind of felt in those spaces at the time.

Arrye Rosser [00:35:33] Were there, I’m sort of going back to your mom, like, do you have any sense from what your mom told you about her growing up, that was sort of memories or stories that she passed along that were. But now you. Now that we’re talking about it, you sort of look back and think that was her experience with nature. Did she sort of talk about growing up in Mississippi and things that sounded like a black person fitting in nature? Do you know what I mean? As opposed to this sort of alien. These- these spaces that were that you were visiting that felt like there were white space races? 

Kim Woodford [00:36:18] No. In the rural Mississippi south, you didn’t engage in nature. You only worked in it. She worked the cotton fields there. And from that she had a- She had a- Found this thing for natural cotton. She actually- She had some type of a mental- A strong fear of it. She didn’t like to touch was- It was- It was unlike anything I’d ever seen. My mother was a very strong woman and not fearful. But when it came to cotton. I, she, I’ve never seen such fear. And, you know, this story I never really- I never really share because it- It would- It would break my mother down into tears. So there was some sort of trauma that she had that’s associated with the cotton fields and with cotton in its natural state that affected her immensely.

Arrye Rosser [00:37:42] Wow. How old was she when she when she left Mississippi? I mean, she- I mean, I’m sort of thinking about how much was she getting away from whatever that traumatic thing was, or was it just something particular to cotton?

Kim Woodford [00:37:59] She was probably 19. 

Arrye Rosser [00:38:04] She was young. 

Kim Woodford [00:38:05] Between 19 and 20. Yeah.

Arrye Rosser [00:38:07] Yeah, she was a young woman, so she wanted out. Did she talk about just that time in her life when was she working in the cotton fields? What age was she?

Kim Woodford [00:38:20] It had to- I can’t tell you the age, but I would have to say if we look at the Mississippi South, yeah, it was. It was pretty back in the ’50s. And, yeah, she was born in 1938, so if you could imagine that there were no jobs. There were- There was no- The opportunity for education was slim to none, and it was still Jim Crow South.

Arrye Rosser [00:38:49] Yeah. Does she- But it’s interesting that she- There’s sort of this negative agricultural experience, but yet she was a gardener and love flowers and everything. Did she have, like, the house that she grew up in? Did it feel like that she had happy memories of- of being in a garden, like with her family or anything she’d talk about that-

Kim Woodford [00:39:17] No, she didn’t.

Arrye Rosser [00:39:20] So. Yeah, it was kind of- I’m fascinated by the story.

Kim Woodford [00:39:26] Yeah.

Arrye Rosser [00:39:26] My grandfather picked cotton, too, and it was largely African American books, but it was another time period, and in Texas, but probably not too different than Mississippi.

Kim Woodford [00:39:39] Well, I would love to hear your story because I’d love to know. I mean, did he pick it because he was a sharecropper or-

Arrye Rosser [00:39:45] Yeah, they were sharecroppers and that’s why he got the heck out of there. But not. I’ll share that over a beer sometime.

Kim Woodford [00:39:54] Okay. Okay. I’d love to hear it.

Arrye Rosser [00:39:58] Yeah, so we sort of talked about this already, but do you feel like there were people or experiences that discouraged you from being in nature, other than maybe things that you’ve talked about already or long. Either long ago or more recently? There any other-any other stories along that line?

Kim Woodford [00:40:22] Well, I would have to say I had an experience, and this has been very recent ever since my. Since 2016, 2017, maybe, when I was actually doing work in this space without Joy Acro myself and about four other of my African American girlfriends, we went down to central Ohio for getaway to Hocking Hills. And it was in December pretty much when, you know, the crowds have quieted down. Right. And we were walking in one of the spaces, the Conkles, where there was few people out there. But we were kind of moving along the trail, designated trail, talking, having a good time. A couple of my sister friends were walking further ahead and I had heard them encounter some folks that were coming through as well, coming towards them. And I just recall while in a conversation, hearing the pleasantries, and then all of a sudden I hear this “Make America Great Again.” And then the next thing I notice this, this older white gentleman who didn’t realize there were more Black people coming, looked up and like, oh, hi. And I’m like, oh, wait a minute. And we were in a high, in the height of one of the most racially divisive, situations that we had ever encountered. Really. Right. With yeah, Trump and you know, all of the talk that he was doing. And so I was really struck by that. And I can’t- I’m sure if I speak for my other sister friends, they say the same. It was- That was pretty traumatic and to hear that because you already- I was already in this, in this space of trying to move past my fear of not belonging out there by, you know, fellow Americans who happen to be white. So that really kind of hurt me and put me back into a very highly0 Was I skeptical or reserved? Skeptical. Even though I knew that there were other people out there, like the conservancy yourself, trying to do work, to change because you were committed to creating a space where all people would feel welcome. So that helped my fear.

Arrye Rosser [00:43:43] Thank you for sharing that. I really struggle actually with this issue. I wonder how much white people encouraging Black people to just get out there and you’re welcome. And come on. Is maybe not recognizing actual reasons they may be afraid and legitimizing the know, like treating people’s concerns as legitimate. I think for a long time I didn’t understand that. I really do. And so now I’m in a different position. And I wonder how we share that kind of information to help people understand better. And I’m by people I say white people. You know, I think white people don’t get it because they don’t experience it. And a lot of times they’re not with Black people to witness it.

Kim Woodford [00:44:41] Correct. So I would tell you to continue to do what you’re doing and building your community partners to help while they’re helping to push your initiative, your commitment in the space and creating diversity and belonging. It’s still, it still comes down to, from what I’ve learned here, that, well, I can do a training in it. I think you, you’ll really understand and have it resonated more when it’s coming from someone who looks like you. So you. Sharing within your family, your, your network, that, you know, white network, pushing that and helping people to understand why it, why people are, why people of color feel this way. Because it’s, it’s all by design on all accounts of my research, and it’s all been by design, this structural institutional racism that has pushed the Indigenous people from the land in a horrendous sort of way. You have stripped families from one another, not just with Indigenous, but with African American, American creating, you know, a land of milk and honey off of the backs of Black folk. And has- And America has never reconciled that. And until America does, we’re going to continue to have this struggle of understanding and empathy and diversity and a feeling of belonging in public, natural green spaces. And this is what I’m focused on. I’m not going to focus to share everything else. All the other structures of racism that still all ties into- It’s all sliding back and forth. But look, I’ll just continue to center on green space. Yeah.

Arrye Rosser [00:47:14] One thing I kind of wonder about too is if white people need to be acculturated to seeing people of color in doing outdoor recreation. Like if, you know, there’s sort of a reverse of it. Like we’re just used to seeing white people do it. So somehow it seems like unusual or something like that. Like we need, I think we all need that sort of different understanding of what nature and outdoor recreation is about to have a more inclusive. To have it include everybody. Like there’s sort of something we’re moving towards. I’m kind of mentally sort of. I think we’re both involved in this in different ways. It’s fascinating to just talk about it because it’s very challenging. I wondered if your relationship with nature, if you look at it as having changed over time, because when you’re talking about your childhood, you’ve got that just sense of wonder of listening to birds and just that natural thinking about the outdoors as a place that you play, especially if your house is real crowded and you want to just get outside and blow off some steam. And now you’re involved in the work that you’re doing now just sort of, how does that, how do you sort of see your view of nature changing over time?

Kim Woodford [00:48:48] It has certainly evolved in how I engage in the space. It’s never taken away from my love of it as a child and just. Just the way it made me feel, which was just at peace. I felt joyful. I felt grateful for the, just the, for the opportunity to have such an animal or a being be able to feel my space with something that I knew was a part of this world. I guess the creator is what I want to say is where I felt so grateful for that opportunity. And I feel even I feel grateful for, to the Creator, for the opportunity. Now I, again, I’ve evolved in that I engage more in this space. I- I’ve come to step outside of my comfort zone and through the help of my husband. And I was, I. I think I totally forgot, you know, and when you ask me was there someone who was instrumental, it was not my husband when we were dating. He was the ultimate camper and outdoor enthusiast and hiker. And so getting with him, that helped me to evolve my, my level of comfort in the outdoor space. I still loved it. But don’t get me wrong, even being out, say we went to more of a remote hike out in South Chagrin once when we were dating. It’s a place I would have never gone, didn’t know about it, and was kind of like, okay, I’m a little apprehensive here, but thank goodness you’re here with me. So it was getting outdoors with him. Sharing that time out in nature was amazing. And then it evolved in that when I heard of this organization called Outdoor Afro and I heard of a story on NPR about them, I thought, wow, there are other people out here getting out in nature and loving it. And so I began to follow that organization, Outdoor Afro, the leader and founder, Rue Mapp, basically had the same feeling that many people such as myself and many of the people that went on hikes with me had. They thought like, I always loved being outdoors, but I didn’t get out much because I always thought I was the only one. Or when I went, I was always the only one. So that was really wonderful to hear. And then I followed them on social media. And then when I saw that they were looking to recruit leaders in different states to volunteer to build the community, I thought about it and I thought about it and I said to my husband, you know, I take this really seriously because, you know, I’m still kind of a neophyte in this space where I’m trying to feel more comfortable in the outdoors. With you, let alone, you know, going into the woods with other people. How can I do this if I’m not fully comfortable myself? Well, I took the fun. I. The plunge, so to speak, to step out because I wanted to. I thought I could take this journey in my involvement in nature and outdoor spaces and bring others along with. So that’s what I did for about four years. And I got over 300 people of color, primarily African Americans, out into our public parks, that is our national parks, our local Metroparks, Cleveland Metro parks, Lake Metroparks. And it’s been a wonderful experience. And through journey on Yonder, I was able to expand the community in ways that I couldn’t without Outdoor Afro. But joy has helped me to connect with community development corporations and helping with their community building initiative through green space. Which has been amazing because of the opportunities to transform and activate vacant land to green spaces that will spur civic commons. You know, building, reconnecting neighborhood spaces, you know, bringing neighbors together to celebrate and to- to even heal in this green space. And that’s what I focus a lot on as well. The healing aspects of nature and that whole reconnecting to or rebuilding that. That relationship with nature, the enlarge that benefit, enlarged part, that benefit is that healing and that wellness aspect of it.

Arrye Rosser [00:54:46] Yeah.

Kim Woodford [00:54:47] And we’ve seen here coming through a historic pandemic and racial reckoning, that green space, our nature, was a huge source of healing for us. And I was speak more specifically to the African American community and the events that I did out there that the restorative heights helped to give healing, emotional and physical healing to many of the participants. Because we were, you know, in our homes, isolated, you know, feeling the pain of mental pain, of the racial reckoning that we were going through, feeling the emotional anxiety and depression and the pressure of the fact that we could be away from our loved ones because of this deadly virus that was going about. So bringing that type of opportunities to the black community, the healing and bringing some joy in the midst of the trauma, was very meaningful for me. And it was he healing for me as well, as was my gardening time, my backyard gardening.

Arrye Rosser [00:56:34] I’m just so struck by all the things that. That you’re saying. And I have. I have a million more questions for you. I know it’s coming up to three. Do you want to. I have one more question I want to ask for sure now. Do you want to keep going or do you want to. To set up another time to keep talking?

Kim Woodford [00:56:57] If we could, I’m happy to set up another time

Arrye Rosser [00:57:00] That would be absolutely fantastic. Well, let me ask you before we go straight into that logistics, I wondered if I’ve been meditating also on this. What would a black outdoor space or a space that was culturally more comfortable for people of color, like, what would that look like? And I think there’s a lot of opportunities as there’s a lot in some ways, like Northeast Ohio is sort of downsizing a bit in terms of its, you know, there’s vacant land, we could re- There’s a lot of park building that’s been real successful. Like could we, could we work together in communities to make more satisfying city parks? And what would it look like? You know, do you have any sense of like what? 

Kim Woodford [00:58:02] Well, so I would say continue to connect with your community partners of color and continue to, to build your partnerships with them and the community to help you gain a better sense of what’s expected. But I know there are organizations around, like black environmental leaders that I’m a part of that are helping to do this work to bring voices to the table to hear what, you know, our park spaces could look like, to create, to be more welcoming. That’s one. Another one is that I’ve been doing some community engagement work with our community development corporations in their community building initiatives through green space and wellness. And I, I’ve heard some feedback that says, you know, just. And they don’t even may not know about all the park services like yourself. But I asked a group, I said, what would you see your- These a vacant space as on your street? What do you. How would you see it and transform it so that it could be a place where your neighbors could, could come together and be a little social and connect with one another. One person said, an African American female said, I love to be able to transform and activate a space to that of a dog park. And I just thought that was wonderful because I know a lot of places we can’t take our doggies. Well, some of our Metro parks are parts-. But you have to realize that not all African Americans are still willing to say, hey, I’m going to go a journey on yonder on a two mile, three mile hike. That’s a beginner’s hike because I’m just still terrified of the woods, right. Which I hear that and I create experiences to, to adapt to that. But so, and I may not always get out. I may not have a, a park where I can go and walk my dog into that’s within walking distance and is it safe. So having a doggy park per se and on your street could mean just the whole difference of- of you know, having number one, being able to help keep your dog and your pet in a healthy state, the pet owner, and give them opportunities for health and wellness through the walking and exercising opportunity that’s there. And it’s a community connect. It can be a community connect, or should I say a street connector, if you will. So imagine I was thinking about this, Ari, I said to myself one night, imagine through these vacant lands that we have, stay on one street, a fairly average street. You have one vacant space that’s transformed into a dog park, another vacant space that’s transformed into a little meditative green up bench park. Right. Another one for another opportunity. May. I don’t know if I would want it to be grueling, but what if.

Arrye Rosser [01:01:45] Yeah, yeah.

Kim Woodford [01:01:47] So, or, or you as a Park Service realizing this is helping to come into these communities and working with these other organizations to transform and activate something that is green, that when you may have the tool, the resources they’ve got that, the voice, me ideas and you guys to collaborate and build something really wonderful.

Arrye Rosser [01:02:13] Yeah, I mean what we’re talking about I think is a really important conversation because we’re trying to figure out ourselves. And I’m kind of pressing this issue. I’m not the only one, you know, of what, what is our role? Where can we be the most useful? It dawns on me that just encouraging people of color to come to us is self serving and to come to us and do the things that we’d like people to do. Like to some extent we need to also change how things are in our own park. But it would like if we were really on it, we would be working more in communities to better the community beyond just doing programming. I think that that would be like if we, I, in some ways Metroparks is better positioned sometimes, but sometimes maybe, you know, there might be some gaps that we could fill in or we could work across all the park partners to all get better at this, this kind of work, you know, like-

Kim Woodford [01:03:28] that would be what would be wonderful, Arrye.

Arrye Rosser [01:03:30] What would be the toolkit for, you know, collectively saying this is how we do things. So I’m more of a Summit County person. You know, I see- Summit Lake seems to have been a win. You do now that kind of helps people understand what it looks like too, you know, like, okay, well that’s what this kind of experience, you know, doing this kind of work sounds like. I could see that there’s some locations that make a lot of sense for us to be involved with- 

Kim Woodford [01:04:03] Absolutely.

Arrye Rosser [01:04:04] Ourselves. Why not like no one or it’s like the river. No one organization is going to lift this. This is complex work, but it’s all work. Everything that we’re talking about is all work within the skill set of all the partners to do, you know, fundable too. It’s not- This is like- It might be hard for a small neighborhood group, but this is definitely fundable work.

Kim Woodford [01:04:31] Well, let’s get it done then.

Arrye Rosser [01:04:34] Let’s get it done. I know you’re talking about my retirement project too.

Kim Woodford [01:04:38] Yeah, I’ll come work.

Arrye Rosser [01:04:41] I’ll be a volunteer.

Kim Woodford [01:04:44] But you know, never forget the always so. And I like with, I’m really trying to see my mind is going and thinking about opportunities to develop more staffing.

Arrye Rosser [01:05:04] Yeah.

Kim Woodford [01:05:05] To reflect the work that you’re doing. The communities.

Arrye Rosser [01:05:08] Yeah.

Kim Woodford [01:05:09] You know, I’m trying to figure out, you know, my mind is just going to different places and it’s-

Arrye Rosser [01:05:19] It’s complex. Yeah, it’s- It’s definitely hard. Well, hey, I don’t want to take up too much time today. I definitely have a whole bunch of more questions to ask you and it’s just such, such a pleasure to talk.

Kim Woodford [01:05:34] Likewise.

Arrye Rosser [01:05:36] Timing wise. Mondays and Thursdays are kind of the best for Erich and I and we’ve got- We’ve got something else going on on Thursday. But is there time like next week that makes sense?

Kim Woodford [01:05:53] Say Monday the second? You said Mondays?

Arrye Rosser [01:05:58] Yeah, Mondays are Mondays or Thursdays.

Kim Woodford [01:06:01] Let’s go for Monday. August the second.

Arrye Rosser [01:06:04] Okay. Let me just double-check my calendar before. Yep, open lane for me. You want to do two o’clock again?

Kim Woodford [01:06:11] Sure.

Arrye Rosser [01:06:12] Okay. That sounds great. I’ll say Kim part two.

Kim Woodford [01:06:16] You got it. Okay. All right. Well, all right.

Arrye Rosser [01:06:22] I can’t wait to keep talking. Likewise.

Kim Woodford [01:06:25] And thank you for supporting the fundraiser.

Arrye Rosser [01:06:29] Oh, yeah, I look forward to it. I bring- Jennie, I think is coming to you whether she’s got her ticket or not.

Kim Woodford [01:06:35] Okay.

Arrye Rosser [01:06:36] She told me.

Kim Woodford [01:06:37] Okay. Were you able to connect with Pam? Because I can send her an invite as well.

Arrye Rosser [01:06:42] Oh, I hadn’t yet. I think- But go ahead and send her both of the Pams an invite. Pam Barnes has been on vacation and should be coming back later this week. I haven’t- Kim Machuga and I just- She’s out in the field a lot and I’m stuck at home. So send her an invite and I’ll follow up with them to say that I’m going and Jennie’s going if they want to come too.

Kim Woodford [01:07:06] Okay, great. And one last question. Would it be through Pam Machuga that I seek for tickets for the train?

Arrye Rosser [01:07:18] Oh, to do like a group program on the train or just to get on the train? 

Kim Woodford [01:07:26] Like a small group on the train.

Arrye Rosser [01:07:29] You gotta talk to the- If you’re just done with the train, you gotta talk to the train themselves. So give them a call.

Kim Woodford [01:07:36] Okay. I was just- I was wondering because I think Pam was, before the pandemic, had some tickets that she wanted to give me to do like a group ride. Is that no longer the case?

Arrye Rosser [01:07:49] You know what, Ask her because we have not had our staff on the train yet. But talk to her and see what the deal, what the deal is. I don’t know if there may be that there’s some. I don’t want to promise that there’s some discount or tickets or anything, but Pam would- Pam, if, if she had talked about it before, reconnect with her and see what she said.

Kim Woodford [01:08:14] I will do. [crosstalk] Bye, Erich. Bye. Thank you. Bye. [recording ends; interview resumes on a later day]

Arrye Rosser [01:08:43] On August 2, 2021. And I’m doing a phone call oral history with Kim Woodford. And Erich Schnack is our technical person. And we are. This is the second part of an oral history that we started last week. So welcome, Kim.

Kim Woodford [01:09:02] Hi there. How are you, Arrye? Hi, Erich.

Arrye Rosser [01:09:05] Hi there. So we were talking about- Last time we were talking about early experiences of nature and we were talking about focus more on childhood. Now I wanted to talk more about, you know, you as a grown up person. And just a real softball question to start us off with. What are some of your favorite outdoor activities?

Kim Woodford [01:09:34] I enjoy hiking on, you know, in park trails. I guess I could call it the tree bathing. I enjoy gardening, that is vegetable gardening and gardening with plants that attract the pollinators to help keep my garden healthy. And I enjoy kayaking. And that one’s kind of interesting because with kayaking it’s on water. And I’m not a well versed swimmer. My husband is, but I’m not. So really stepped outside of my comfort zone in order to get that enjoyment of being on the water.

Arrye Rosser [01:10:35] That’s cool. What do you think draws you to nature?

Kim Woodford [01:10:43] To say what draws me to nature could be a myriad of things, but I really feel that the beauty of it, the incredible beauty of it and just knowing that it just creates for me a spiritual connection to my creator because I’m like God made, you know, all that we see here in the heavens and the earth. And it’s just incredible that something could be just so. Oh, geez. Just so I. There’s. There’s Just no words for it. Just it’s- As to how incredible, incredibly wonderful it makes me feel, how incredibly moved and, stirring with this, you know, a spiritual connection that I feel when I’m out in nature. So I would say, for the most part, you know, you have the beauty. But also I’m drawn by a spiritual connection to the space, may I say, too. And I’m also, because of that, with being drawn by that, I’m very passionate and I feel a sense of care and responsibility for that which is in nature. Not just our flora, but the fauna and our wildlife. That I’ve always had a sense of care for those things. And that would. That draws me more, you know, to it because that’s that sense of love and care that I have for it.

Arrye Rosser [01:12:54] Is there, like, a particular part of the natural world that’s especially meaningful to you.

Kim Woodford [01:13:05] When you say special part, be it land, air, or-?

Arrye Rosser [01:13:09] You know, I was kind of- Actually, I had an earlier question I sort of skipped. I was going to go back to. But it was like, do you have a favorite wild animal? And why, like, sometimes people seem to resonate with something that’s alive in nature or an aspect. And I just kind of wondered what some of your favorites were, if that makes sense or if it’s more of a holistic kind of thing.

Kim Woodford [01:13:38] I think that’s more where it is, more holistic for me. That’s all just. Just, you know, incredibly joyful for me. It’s incredibly moving. It’s so stirring for me. And don’t get me wrong when I’m saying all this and I’m sounding so somber, but it just brings really great joy to me in ways that I just can’t quite explain. And not only that it brings me that joy, but also when I leave that space, I still have that sense of joy and inspiration and gratefulness as I move from natural space to something a little more populated, going to work, you know, headed out to where there’s more populated areas of people and things.

Arrye Rosser [01:14:35] Do you find that, like, even when you’re in a more developed area, are there little parts of nature that. That kind of catch your attention or speak to you?

Kim Woodford [01:14:46] Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It can be anything. Like, you know, an interesting. An interesting treat. For example, we were traveling yesterday on the road coming back from the Virginia, Maryland area, and we went to. We stopped at a rest stop and there was this tree. It looked, you know, was, you know, one of those type of decorative trees perhaps you plant in your yard. Right. But there was this tree, and it had These little. Oh, like almond shaped seeds on it. And I thought, wow, I wonder what that is. I looked and I looked. Didn’t see a signage or anything, but it was just really interesting. I loved it. Then I have this little cheat app called what’s this? So I took a picture of it and looked it up. Turns out it was a buckeye tree, a young buckeye tree. And we had reached Ohio. So naturally I said, okay, we’re in Ohio. Ohio, Buckeye. So, yes, I can make sense of- I can find joy in nature no matter what, where I am. Those, for instance, that’s just one example. But just, you know, listening where I can to the birds or, you know, just looking at a beautiful sky inspires me and keeps me grounded in gratefulness.

Arrye Rosser [01:16:22] Is there, like. Do you find that there’s a particular type of landscape that really appeals to you? You know how some people are like beach people and I’m not like a beach person. So, you know, some people are mountain people. Like, do you find yourself kind of gravitating towards a certain landscape that’s particularly appealing or do you feel like you’re- They’re all kind of equally cool.

Kim Woodford [01:16:51] Oh, lordy. I would, I want to say I’m equally cool, but let me just say this. When I’m on the trail, say, walking through a- a forest filled with pine trees and hemlock. Oh, in goodness, that, that’s so amazing to just, you know, find myself walking in and just be gifted with this, you know, amazing aroma of pine, the scent of pine. Sometimes along the way you might catch a whiff of something sweet and maybe it’s a honeysuckle or maybe it’s something else. So. And it just, just, just, you know, brightens the- brightens the spirit, if you will, or just again, just brings that much energy and just gratefulness, you know, walking along that space and just to just be as I want to say, gifted with those types of, you know, gifts, things and just as a simple scent.

Arrye Rosser [01:18:12] Do you have like a particular, like a favorite trail in Cuyahoga Valley National Park? And what do you like about it?

Kim Woodford [01:18:21] Oh, Arrye. A favorite trail in the park. This one, I thought I had a favorite trail. Another trail comes along. So do you need me to give you just one trail?

Arrye Rosser [01:18:37] No, no, you can give me as many as you like. I’m curious as much as anything, I’m curious about what is it about the trail that you like? Whatever the trail might be.

Kim Woodford [01:18:58] So my most recent find was the Oak Hill and Plateau trails. It’s just a nice. Oh, My gosh, it’s such a peaceful. And I want to say more of a- of a rough, kind of a rustic feel to that journey around the Oak Hill and Plateau with the different ponds that you can go near and cheer, you know, various toads, frogs doing their thing and other little amphibians and insects. But then you have the iconic Pine Lane. That’s what I call it. What is it called? What is it? Is it called Pine Lane?

Arrye Rosser [01:19:54] The section of the Buckeye that’s just uphill from Peninsula?

Kim Woodford [01:20:00] No, it’s part of the Oak Hill Trail. Oh, Oak Hill. And the Plateau Trail.

Arrye Rosser [01:20:06] Plateau, yeah. Those are nice. I actually did it in the winter with my husband. I hadn’t been out on the plateau in a while. It’s really. It’s very nice.

Kim Woodford [01:20:17] Yeah. I’ve done it both in the winter and in the summer. Spring, summer and fall. It’s very pretty. Like I said, the Pine Tree Lane, that a part of it that actually, I think it’s great. The cover of the conservancy magazine and I’ve posted it because it’s so amazing. I love that area. And then there is Sullivan Lake, Sullivan Pond, which is just so beautiful, so serene. I just love that trail. It gives- That’s a very peaceful trail. That’s something where I could definitely power down and just feel really grounded and grateful there. Then there’s the Ledges. That’s wonderful. It keeps you on your toes, I like to say, with all of the different areas of the Ledges. Just knowing, first of all, these amazing geological monoliths that are, that you’re almost surrounded by, almost just on one side and just knowing that they’ve been there for millions of years and looking at them. And different sections have different characters where one area may be very mossy and have different types of moss, different thicknesses of moss and shades of moss on it. Where another section may be filled with- I like to call them little crater or bug houses. They look like little craters in the stone, as if somebody’s kind of living up in there, some little bugs. But it’s just amazing, the characters and then the smoothness and some of the shapes of that. Of the ledges. It’s just so much character along that trail that to me, it keeps you on your toes. And of course, it’s so inviting to want to really get hands on, dirty and explore. By going in and out of the crevices.

Arrye Rosser [01:22:46] You sound like you’re always looking. Like the way your descriptions are real visual. Oh, yes, the smell too. But it’s like, it sounds like you’re, you tune into a lot of the details as you’re hiking along.

Kim Woodford [01:23:04] Yeah, I, I, I do. I just- And thank you for, for asking me the questions, because I’ve never really quite verbalized it, but that’s, that’s what I see, and that’s what, you know, I smell and feel. And then those are those two I said would be my favorite trails that I’ve come across. Oh, oh, oh. One last one, please.

Arrye Rosser [01:23:32] Yeah.

Kim Woodford [01:23:33] It’s the trail to- Well, it’s not necessarily the trail to Blue Hen Falls, and I love Blue Hen Falls. It’s the trail behind Blue Hen Falls that will take you, lead you to Buttermilk. To the Butter- To the Buttermilk Falls.

Arrye Rosser [01:23:52] Gotcha. Yeah, that’s always, like, the controversial trail because it’s sort of not an official trail, but people love it. And so the park’s gotta kind of figure out how to make it a safe place for people to go. It kind of falls off into the creek.

Kim Woodford [01:24:08] You said it kind of falls off into the creek. Yeah, yeah. So, so, you know, I’ve done it once, and I was very, we were very careful because I had always heard about it, but- And it’s geez to get there. It was definitely worth the effort to get there because it is a little more remote, but it’s gorgeous. And then that’s a place where I just really would love to. To get there at sunrise and just feel that energy.

Arrye Rosser [01:24:39] Yeah, that’s really cool. I love your descriptions of things. Let me ask you something a little more, like, focused on sort of the organizational stuff. You know, Erich and I’ve both seen you featured on the cover of the conservancy for Cuyahoga Valley National Parks magazine. How did you get involved? Do you remember you got involved with either the conservancy or the national park kind of in the earliest days?

Kim Woodford [01:25:10] I sure do. I got involved when I became, in 2016, I believe I became a leader, Ohio lead for Outdoor Afro. I think I may have mentioned it earlier, the volunteer position with Outdoor Afro and which. That’s the national organization that’s aimed at getting Black folk out in nature and, you know, changing the, you know, the narrative of who’s outdoors. And I mean, I tell you, I’m sure I don’t have to tell you why that is, but yes, I got involved with them. And part of that was that I was required as a leader to curate hikes once a month. And so this was probably my second hike. Perhaps I wanted to curate one down in our national park, because we had one near us and I had never been there. And so I had reached out to a young lady. She was a former volunteer coordinator for the conservancy. Her name was Kim, I believe. Kim Leonardi. So I reached out to her, told her who I was, what I was doing, and we actually have a local connection because I believe her husband went to school. Well, her husband’s sister and I went to the same school together. So that was good to know. But she was amazing, Kim was. I came down and met her. She told me about the park. We went for a little walk along the trails that. That kind of leads to Brandywine. In fact, that was my first hike in the park. It was to Brandywine Falls from the then Visitor Center. So she gave me some information, some tips, and was very helpful. So that’s how that was my first introduction to the park. And then later on I began. I come to know Ranger Pam Machuga, Jenny Vasarhelyi, Ranger Pam Barnes, and yourself, Arrye.

Arrye Rosser [01:27:33] Yeah, yeah. And I had- Erich was remembering a story about your first visit to a national park. Could you describe that for us? It wasn’t us. It was-

Kim Woodford [01:27:51] No, it was- It was- I think it was Yellowstone.

Arrye Rosser [01:27:54] Yeah, yeah, that’s the one. So tell us about your trip to Yellowstone. Was that before you came to Cuyahoga Valley? Was that part of- [inaudible]

Kim Woodford [01:28:03] No, this was before I got involved with Outdoor Afro, if I’m not mistaken. In fact, it was before Outdoor Afro. I had gone to visit my sister. My then. Well, my husband’s sister who lived out in Colorado, and she said, hey, come on out. We’ll go check out the Garden of the Gods and then go up to Yosemite, or not Yosemite. We go up to Yellowstone National Park up in Wyoming. I’m like, cool. I always wanted to go. So we did. We. We took the trek there. What was it? Us, eight hour drive. A good portion of it was through the mountains, which was pretty white knuckleish for me because I’m, of course, I’m a Midwesterner, not used to all the mountains and driving in them. So we went to Yellowstone and we went as the pure tourists, not campers and hikers, because they don’t typically hike. And I wasn’t at that point myself into hiking something at that level at Yosemite. So it was wonderful. We had a chance to meet many of the local folk who worked there and who were around which many were actually transplants from other places throughout the country. But we had a trip to. We did a tour to enter Yosemite, which was amazing, passing all of the redstone geological structures. And once we got there, it was wonderful to see just this incredibly natural space from just like a, almost a still early morning pond where the, you know, the trees are reflected off of the water and oh, it’s what I always say, it’s like you almost can’t tell where the ground begins, where the earth begins and the sky ends because it’s so- The reflection is so incredible. And we had a chance to check out the iconic bison that were there and went down to, oh, let me just say with Yellowstone, I did not realize or I totally forgot that that space is a former or an active volcanic area with all of the hot springs. And we had a chance to see that walking through the. I don’t know what they called it, the hot spring area, but, oh, from white hot. Touch it and you’ll never, you know, see the light of day to just, you know, you know, the calming, you know, just a medium, you know, warm water. But we were also traveling along the area where this wonderful, beautiful lake. I’m not sure what the lake was called, but, you know, I think I shared this story that I saw folk on kayak and I’m like, what are you guys doing? They’re doing a kayak tour. I’m like, wow, that was pretty cool. And again, that was something at the time that I wish that I could do. I thought it was really cool to do, but, you know, I’m not the best swimmer, but I think I could have handled that now when I look back. So we went through that area and saw Miss Old Faithful. And I’m going to say it was Miss Old Faithful. She did what she did. And then the. One of the most extraordinary and moving experiences that I can remember from that trip was on the way back because at that point we had spent most of the day down in the park and we were going back to our cabins and as the sun was going down, there was like these, these mountains and hills that had what looked like purple flowers on it. But as the driver said, it’s something about that reflection of the sun or the going that the process of the sun going into the horizon, it hits the mountains and reflects this beautiful purple mountain majesty. And that struck me when I saw it. Oh my gosh, I wanted to tell him to stop, pull over the van. I need to see it. I need to really just get out here and feel it, feel that energy just to see that, you know, wow. Someone wrote a song about the, the tribute to America. And they. And they used that image of purple mountain majesties that actually. It actually exists. It actually exists. So that was really extraordinary to me. I loved it. I just- I wish, if anything else, I want to go back to Yellowstone just to see that. So that was my- It was a wonderful, wonderful visit. I loved it and definitely would love to go back. But on another level of perhaps as a hiker and backpacker.

Arrye Rosser [01:34:21] It’s fascinating to me that your first national park experience was like the grandmother of all national parks. You know, you went to a very remote place, but also really well known. It’s just really kind of cool that you had a more- Even though you weren’t doing a lot of hiking, you still have that kind of experience of wilderness?

Kim Woodford [01:34:48] Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Arrye Rosser [01:34:50] Really interesting. Have you had some other, like, memorable national park trips or experiences that you’ve had since?

Kim Woodford [01:35:01] I have.

Arrye Rosser [01:35:03] Besides Cuyahoga Valley.

Kim Woodford [01:35:04] Besides Cuyahoga Valley?

Arrye Rosser [01:35:06] Yeah. Well, you can tell us too. That’s all good.

Kim Woodford [01:35:09] Oh, yeah, absolutely. I’ve got wonderful, wonderful memories with Cuyahoga Valley. And that’s my whole goal is so that take other folks to help them experience those or capture and create memories as well of their national park. But I would also say hike, not hiking, but traveling to see the Grand Canyon. And I actually went there. I went down out that way to visit a relative for the new year. And normally they said they typically don’t get snow around the new year. They got snow, so it was a little chilly, but it was incredible. It’s like, again, an indescribable experience and a feeling where you’re you, you, you, you- You just stand there in awe and you look at that and say, this is, this is what I’ve seen in the movies, on television, probably in some cases back in my day, it was black and white, and none of it, none of it. Even though it moved me then watching it on television and the movies, none of it gives us, gives the type of justice it does when you are there. You are there in person looking at that enormous, beautiful, the layered crater. And so that was pretty. A pretty amazing experience. But it also, at that particular location, it made me very reflective of the indigenous people who care for the land, who were the original caretakers of, you know, our modern era. So I had to pay homage to them. And I. And I think it’s the Havasupai. And I don’t want to say it wrong, so I shouldn’t say it at all. But the Native American tribes that are within that area, that was my- That’s what I got a greater sense of being grateful to them. That’s based of course, to the almighty Creator. And of course, that’s another one where I want to return to that space. And next time, as a hiker or a backpacker.

Arrye Rosser [01:38:02] We have the interest in American Indian heritage kind of is a theme that comes up quite a bit. And I was curious of- You’re actually someone who’s gone out and been in Indian country, you know, where there’s modern American Indians of various tribes. Like, what was that kind of experience? And did you feel like, you know, you got a chance to have a little bit of contact with other cultures? How is that for you?

Kim Woodford [01:38:33] Well, the actual tour- Now, mind you, again, I went as a tourist, and the only exposure that I received in connecting with the Native Americans was when we went to one of the shops, the gift shops, and we were able to see the house, some of the. What is. What is that called?

Arrye Rosser [01:38:58] Like, the turquoise jewelry or turquoise jewelry. But also the Navajo rugs in that part of the world.

Kim Woodford [01:39:06] Yeah, making the rugs. Not the weaving.

Arrye Rosser [01:39:10] It’s-

Kim Woodford [01:39:11] What is it called?

Arrye Rosser [01:39:14] Definitely weaving the rugs. There’s also basket making and, like, the Kachina dolls, if I got that word right. So Hopi dolls.

Kim Woodford [01:39:30] Yeah, I think Hopi was one. So, yeah, we- That was my only connection to the Native American. Of course, we said hello as they, you know, created. We’re doing more of the demonstration of creating their Native, you know, pieces of life and essential. Essential wares, housewares, household goods.

Arrye Rosser [01:40:08] Interesting. Thank you for sharing that. I wanted to go back to a little bit more about Outdoor Afro. How long were you there? Like, what was the time frame of that?

Kim Woodford [01:40:21] I believe that was 2016 through 2020. I didn’t- I wasn’t an Outdoor Afro for 2020. So I would say 2019.

Arrye Rosser [01:40:34] So about three years, something like that. Yeah, that sounded about right. And what was, like, the training process like, to become a leader for Outdoor Afro? What did you have to do to get, like, certified or approved as a leader for them?

Kim Woodford [01:40:54] Well, I interviewed for it. I completed an application, I interviewed for it, and they selected me. And then we then went- We had leadership training, which is once a year. No matter what, even if you’re a returning lead leader, you still have to undergo leadership training.

Arrye Rosser [01:41:20] What did you feel like you got out of that training? Because clearly they turned you into a leader for doing this kind of stuff. So it worked. 

Kim Woodford [01:41:31] Well, I would say one of the things, you know, you got good information and without. I gotta be careful in What I say because of. And please, you don’t have to put this part in about, you know, what, what she does and how she’s doing. I don’t know what, what I can say or not, but what I will say. Yeah, so what, what I will say is this, is that I got exposure to a number of incredible, amazing people of color, Black folk from all over the country that enjoy doing a same thing as I do. Some people may, where I- I call myself an outdoor enthusiast. There are people who are, who are interested in the environment. Environmental leaders, scientists, sales, all. It’s all types of backgrounds for the folk. But. But one thing we have in common is our love of being outdoors, our love of nature, and our love and love of stewardship of the environment. Of environment, being environmental stewards. So. And I will say not just- And let me add one more thing and bringing other folk along to increase the community of Black folk out in nature.

Arrye Rosser [01:43:02] Do you still have friends from that time?

Kim Woodford [01:43:05] I sure do.

Arrye Rosser [01:43:07] Is there any like memorable stories of times with those friends or, you know, just the experiences you shared together that kind of cemented the relationships?

Kim Woodford [01:43:19] There was actually there, there, there are, there are relationships that I’ve with people that I’ve met in Outdoor Afro that I have now where we actually have met up and we’ve camped out together. Just here Recently I went to Red River Gorge in Kentucky and two of my Outdoor Afro, what I call my sister friends from Chicago met up with me and my team out there in Kentucky and we, you know, hung out for the weekend, went in, you know, camped together, went over to Daniel Boone National Forest, to the Arches and the courthouse and did that beautiful hike. So yeah, we continue to remain friends and even if we don’t get together, we still keep in touch. We are resources for each other or just, you know, being able to bounce ideas off of, you know, you know, when you’re struggling, you know, it’s these great bonds that you have. So. Yes. So that and her- Actually there was one other one I wanted to share with you, So. Yeah, I can’t think of the other one right now.

Arrye Rosser [01:44:32] That’s okay. It comes back to you later if you just chime in. Tell me about like the timing of when you established Journey on Yonder and how you picked the name for it.

Kim Woodford [01:44:47] Sure. So Journey on Yonder began to happen as I was still working as an Outdoor Afro, volunteering as an Outdoor Afro lead. There were some things that I couldn’t, that I was kind of a little restricted from doing because, you know, I wanted to keep it with Outdoor Afro. And then some of the other opportunities I had didn’t necessarily would move into that space. So what I thought, and people still wanted me to, instead of saying, you know, I’m sorry, I can’t do it, they were like, well, can you do it at least still with it? Just as you’re, you know, not necessarily out of where I’m from, I said, sure. So I did it. And that’s where Journey on Yonder actually began to grow. I just felt like it’s, you know, the community, the opportunities to further grow in this space and expand more than just on the trails with what I’m doing and why. But don’t get me wrong, I loved Outdoor Afro. It was amazing, and it gave me some of the tools and the confidence that I needed to help change lives and help change my own, for that matter. And so now with Journey on Yonder, I made that transition because I could move further into. Doing more creative community workshops centered on nature and centered on health and wellness for people of color. And I chose Journey on Yonder because it’s been just that for me. A journey in this. A beautiful journey in this outdoor natural space. And it’s on yonder is because it’s kind of a euphemism from my younger days where we were told to go out yonder and play. That’s what I’m doing. I’m journeying yonder and am bringing folks along with me. And again, still hoping to make a positive impact not only in the individual lives of. [01:47:24] Of Black and Brown people, but also as a community collective, and that’s in a BIPOC, but also community as a whole. Because when we understand the need for diversity and inclusion in this space, just like we need it on any other area in our lives, we all can live together. We will all benefit from what nature has to offer henceforth. Increased stewardship, health outcomes. Increased health outcomes, and having just an amazing time while doing it in most cases. Hence what I like to call creating that journey. And that’s my journey of joy. I’m sorry. Hence creating joy in the outdoors. And that’s my acronym for Journey on Yonder is joy. And now people just call me joy,

Arrye Rosser [01:48:25] Which is a wonderful thing to be called.

Kim Woodford [01:48:28] It’s just, you know. Yeah, you just. My thing is, I hope that I can help people in a. Create a safe space for people to find and create their joy in nature.

Arrye Rosser [01:48:44] Uh-huh. [crosstalk] Go ahead.

Kim Woodford [01:48:47] Because when you create that joy, it’s an unforgettable experience. And then the more and as. And that’s going to, I believe, inspire you to get out more and more to, to chase after that and find that, because you can chase after and you’ll find it every time. That’s the thing with being out in nature. You’re going to find that Joy.

Arrye Rosser [01:49:14] Do you have any memorable stories of that transformational experience that has happened with other people or that they’ve told you since they’ve become involved with you, either when you were doing Outdoor Afro or now that you’re doing Joy? You know, what kinds of amongst, you know, your community of people. What are some of those transformation stories that have come out that they’re learning more about their environment?

Kim Woodford [01:49:40] They’ve learned to like for the more experienced. They’ve learned to slow down and appreciate what is around them because you can be on a trail and that’s great in the space and enjoying that space as you, you know, as you would, because that’s why you’re there. But now you’re taking a little more time to smell the grass, as I call it, to smell the honeysuckle, to smell the pine trees, the pine needles, to look at the pine cones, take pictures of it, stop and have conversations about a spider web and how, how it’s, how it has. How it’s connected to the tree or the branch or the- Or the blade of weed or bush that it’s. It’s connected to off for a reason of, you know, for that. That spider, creating a source of food for that spider. And we’ve had those conversations. So you’re creating those type of memories, those experiences that have lasting memories. One young lady, she- We used to work together, but she would see. We had disconnected for a while, but we were Facebook friends and she would always see my post and would like and say, hey, I’m coming out there one day. Okay. Okay. Well, when you do, just come on, let me know. So she did. And her first experience was in Cuyahoga Valley National Park, which was the ledges. And of course, I did what I do, I try to give some, some context of the space that you are now about to, you know, journey on, because people would like to know that and what our journey consisted of down in the Ledges and giving a little insight of, you know, our surrounding of the green space. Because thank goodness I got that experience through the Ohio Certified Naturalist Program that the Conservancy put on and which I’m grateful to. It has helped me to curate more enriching experiences on the trails. So with that she had been coming for a short time, and during one of our trail journeys, she said, you know what, Kim? I never really paid much attention to the outdoor space, but, you know, coming on these hikes with you, I not only pay much attention to my outdoor space, I look at my neighborhood differently, my street differently. I noticed the different trees. I noticed the bushes. I noticed, you know, the flower, the other flowers. She- And she’s a- She is a more centered or centered on being a steward of them, a better steward of the environment, because she already was. We started just encouraging her to be a better steward. So to me, that was like icing on the cake. And now, through the work, through being on these experiences with me, she has become empowered to curate her own hikes, and she does it with her family down in the national park.

Arrye Rosser [01:53:28] That’s just wonderful. Kim, you’re making me tear up.

Kim Woodford [01:53:32] Hey, when I hear it, too, even talking about it, I do the same. But that. That’s what I’m talking about. That’s when I’m like, Lord, I am- I am helping somebody, and I’m so grateful for it.

Arrye Rosser [01:53:47] But, you know, you’re in the path you’re meant to be, right? There’s such thing as destiny. You’re- you’re in, you’re in where you’re, you’re, you’re doing what you’re supposed to do, whatever you’re born to do.

Kim Woodford [01:54:01] And you know something. And thank you, Ari, for saying that, because I pray on that. I pray that to the good Lord, if this is where I’m supposed to be or if this work is what you would have me to do, you know, show me, let me. Let me help impact the lives of, you know, other people. But- but- but grow me at the same time. And- And I believe the blessings have come in many forms in this. And being in this space from the amazing people that I’ve met who have participated in coming to the events and who share their reason for coming out to join me and trusting me to take them on a safe journey. And I want to say safe, you know, as best safe as I can possibly make it right. And- And hearing them and being able to speak, because. Speak with, you know, most everyone who comes on my journey, I try to have a conversation with. So this might sound kind of odd, okay. So say we do a hike, and usually what I try to do is have one of my. I call my hiking family members, show up who enjoys being in the front of the pack, so to speak. You know, I’ve mapped out the journey. They know the trails just as well as I do, and sometimes even better. I let them primarily lead the way. While, I go through my little trek and I’m talking to everybody, seeing how you’re doing. What brings you out here? Let’s talk a little bit about this. And this is what I hope you gain from it. And I listen to. Let me hear you. Let me hear from you and what you hope to gain, and we just have a wonderful time, because I just- I just feel like I need you. I need to learn more about you and hopefully bring you back out, you know, encourage you to come back out rather than. Rather than just, you know, saying, hello, let’s go on this hike. And that’s what we do. I just don’t feel as connected that way.

Arrye Rosser [01:56:41] It’s interesting because what you’re getting at a lot is motivation. You know, we tend in the national park to sort of set things up sometimes if it’s a recreational hike or it’s an interpretive hike, and we’re making maybe some assumptions about what people want out of it. What have you been learning about what brings the new people to your hikes?

Kim Woodford [01:57:04] What have I been learning about what?

Arrye Rosser [01:57:07] What the- the new people that join you. What kinds of things do they say that that’s giving you some insights into, you know, the purpose that you have with your organization, like, what’s motivating people to come on your hikes?

Kim Woodford [01:57:25] Social media helps motivate people. Seeing the pictures. And that’s when I knew, too. And I knew from before that, you know, they said, a picture is a thousand words, and show someone a picture of that Grand Canyon, for example, and be one of these such, you know, incredible feelings, you know, emotional feelings, wonderment of, you know, just awesome. Awestruck, you know. Yes, let me make. Make up my own word. Awestruckness of that incredible space. Let someone go down, let me take a picture, which I have, of the ledges and show that incredible space. And it always, always- I get a response, wow that is so incredible. That just stirs my spirit. Right. So to answer your question, I’m probably going off of it.

Arrye Rosser [01:58:38] No, you’re not at all. You’re getting me thinking, actually, because I don’t. What you’re helping me understand is what kind of effective messages that we might. Might have as a national park to. That would appeal to different audiences, especially new visitors.

Kim Woodford [01:59:00] That would probably be-

Arrye Rosser [01:59:02] Yeah, it sounds like the beauty of the scenery is a real important draw.

Kim Woodford [01:59:11] Yeah, yeah. And it’s something that. And again, you get, you know, you get a sense that most people, when you talk to them. Why did you. What made you come out here? Aside from, you know, I saw it on the internet and that I- I’d like to be outside, but I- I don’t have anyone to go outside with. Excuse me. And I’ll say something to that end right there. As a child, you know, I- I think I mentioned my childhood. We always played outdoors, right? But when it came to things like camping or skiing or getting out on the water on a boat or anything. Now, I said, we grew up in a community that was pretty much, you know, we got along, black and white folk. We did pretty well, but I don’t recall ever being invited to go. Well, hey, have you ever done this? Have you ever skied? Have you ever hiked? Backpack? Have you ever went on a boat ride? You know, where is it? Is it someone’s responsibility to invite me on a boat ride? No, but my white friends never asked. So what was that purpose to say back to where I always enjoyed the outdoor space, but no one in my. I don’t really have anyone in my circle to go outside with. And maybe. And that’s when I say to my white friends and allies in this space, if you know someone of color and that’s maybe something you like to do, maybe that’s an opportunity for you to ask, hey, would you- To invite them. You might get a no. Like, you know, I still get no’s, but when I invite people out, but I do it anyway for that sense of, you know, trying to change the. That again, shift that culture, that narrative

Arrye Rosser [02:01:31] Has the fact that you’re doing what you do, has it sort of had a spillover effect on your family and friends, you know. You know, you get a passion. Any particular person, you get a passion, and somehow, you know, he roped people into it.

Kim Woodford [02:01:49] Oh, yeah, absolutely. Actually, it’s really something that my family knows that I’m about being outdoors. And so one year we went to Illinois to have the family Thanksgiving dinner there. And before I got there, my niece said, hey, Aunt Kim, I need you to do a family hike. Why don’t you organize a family hike? Because that’ll be nice. We want to do that. I said, okay, yeah, I could do that. Yeah, that’d be nice. Because I still have family members who don’t like to get outside. And I’ve tried. And while they. They love what I’m doing, they haven’t got quite gotten there yet. So that’s baby steps, right? So when we got there, they came out they had little ones and strollers, and I had scouted it, of course. It was a very friendly family trail, nature trail. So we had an amazing time. Amazing.

Arrye Rosser [02:02:56] What did they say about it? They were foot draggers before. 

Kim Woodford [02:03:03] But when we got out there, they really enjoyed it. They enjoyed having that space, spending that time out in nature and then watching their little ones enjoy themselves on the trail, running on the trails, or, you know, I- I could have been on it, you know, on a fallen tree, looking at- And I- Taking the time, like, what I would do, take the time to pick up, like, a little pine cone or acorn and show them what it is and talk a little bit about it. For those who are old enough, you know, older than, you know, the toddler age, I suppose, but still showing them that and getting. Giving them that exposure and the opportunity to touch and feel the space around them. So they loved it, and they know that that’s what I’m all about. And sometimes they’ll tell me when they do go out on a trail, it’s. And truthfully, it wouldn’t be the trail that something that I would like what we did, but it’s still. It’s within their comfort zone, which I’m fine with that. If that’s- If that’s where you are at this point, cool. Thank you. Thank you for sharing and thank you for letting me know that, you know, what I’m doing has inspired you to say, hey, I want to do more of it.

Arrye Rosser [02:04:24] How do you, as you look back on this, like, how do you think this has impacted you? Like, if you were to go back to your old self because you’ve always loved the outdoors, but clearly, like, that decision to become an Outdoor Afro leader made a big difference in your life. How would you sort of just- How do you tell that story to yourself? You know, your own transformation and journey,

Kim Woodford [02:05:01] Being out in nature and involving and evolving in this space. From the time that my husband took me out on the trails in our local Cleveland Metroparks, to me, joining Outdoor Afro came at a time when I needed it in my career, my professional career. I was feeling at a point where, you know, was I being valued for the work that I bring? I didn’t need an atta girl, but am I being. I didn’t feel valued, and maybe I’m not sure what the reason was, but that’s how I was feeling. And so when Outdoor. the opportunity for Outdoor Afro came along, I thought long and hard about it again, like, I said earlier because I knew that I would be impacting the lives of people that I didn’t know, but who were in similar positions as myself. Always wanting to get in the outdoor space, but didn’t know how to or didn’t have anyone else to go with. And again, I’m just kind of learning about these parks and trails in a way that I’ve never dared to get out on, but I’ve always known about- That has- That’s- And, and then taking folk on these journeys, on these journeys and having them feel good about it after the fact, not feeling unsafe, feeling like, yes, this was amazing. This is just what I needed. I’m coming back. That just makes all the difference. And like I said, when you can take it outside of the trails and look at your neighborhood differently and be empowered to create or curate such outings for your family and friends, that makes all the difference to me.

Arrye Rosser [02:07:18] What do you see as kind of taking Journey on Yonder to the next level? Are you starting to kind of dream for kind of where you’re headed with the organization?

Kim Woodford [02:07:32] Well, I’m still so new, Arrye, but I feel the need that to address health and wellness issues through nature for BIPOC communities. One thing the pandemic certainly told me and helped me to see is that more so is that people are dealing with things emotionally again. I’ve always known about the trauma, racial trauma that we face, but the pandemic brought it out even more so. And with the racial reckoning of George Floyd, more so. And when I did the resilience hikes, that let me know that there’s a need to utilize nature as a healer or an emotional, mental and physical healer. We know the numbers are higher within African American communities. The for the physical end, blood pressure, diabetes, even cholesterol. But it’s also high in that area of depression, distress and anxiety. I’m not a doctor, never claim to be, but I know this much when we get out into nature, the science says, and I can give you plenty of antidotes to support it, that, yes, that the cortisone decreases and the happy hormones increase. And that’s where I am and that’s where I want to move into more into that space to help others heal in a holistic way in nature.

Arrye Rosser [02:09:35] That’s just really well said. And that theme really resonates. It’s been coming out actually, in that some of the discussions on the continuum of engagement, we have different grants and that whole, like the mental health aspect, I think I could see us really, like trying to focus on that. You know, before we were focusing a little bit more on other aspects of it. And I think the mental health might be the piece that isn’t getting enough attention.

Kim Woodford [02:10:15] And I’m preparing myself for that in this work. And I’m working on a couple of different things now to prepare myself for that.

Arrye Rosser [02:10:23] Yeah. Are there any - just sort of backing out, sort of more generally - are there any, like, authors or public figures who’ve inspired you? You know, when you need a pick me up or maybe got you into thinking of this kind of work and putting yourself out there? Do you have any heroes?

Kim Woodford [02:10:51] So. That might not be a good question for me because- 

Arrye Rosser [02:11:01] That’s okay. 

Kim Woodford [02:11:02] I’m so inspired by so many people.

Arrye Rosser [02:11:05] Yeah.

Kim Woodford [02:11:06] In this space, be it either locally and, you know, nationally. Globally. And it’s a diverse, diverse group. And yeah. I don’t know. And don’t ask me to give you names, so I suppose that might not be a good question for me to answer at this point.

Arrye Rosser [02:11:37] No, no, it’s okay. And I wasn’t even necessarily thinking of modern people, sometimes historic or whatever, but it sounds to me like it’s this collective. Perhaps that was a bit of what Whitney was saying too, of that. Now there does seem to be a community of people who are out there and more prominent and then, you know, not just doing it personally, but they’re out there as leaders in outdoor spaces. How are you starting to see, like the needle move or not move about people of color represented in outdoor spaces? Do you have any thoughts about that?

Kim Woodford [02:12:24] People represented as in being out in parks?

Arrye Rosser [02:12:28] Yeah.

Kim Woodford [02:12:31] It’s, you know, if I talk about what I see here locally on the trails and the parks, there’s still a lot of room to, a lot of work to do to make that happen. And even with the pandemic, we knew that we saw folks, droves of folk going to the parks. But I have to say, when I went out there to the parks, I still didn’t see as many people of color as I thought that I would see as a result. Now, that’s at our national park, maybe some of the other parks. But if I were to go, I will say one time I went to one of our local Cleveland metro parks. And the first, you know, as you drive into the park, it was packed and I didn’t know what was going on. I thought maybe something special was happening, but no, people were out enjoying nature and celebrating nature in different ways. Some were on the trails, some were on the tow path, some were at the basketball court, some were grilling and having, you know, good family, twins having fun, the kids playing. Just all types of activities were going on. And I thought that was. That was the one time where I saw, twice I saw more, folk of color out in our local park, but in our national park, outside of, you know, what I’m doing and maybe another young lady, I didn’t, I don’t see people on the trail just meandering, you know, people of color like I do white folk. So, yeah, I’d say there’s more work to do to get folk on that level again. We celebrate, you know, nature in many different forms. But- but when you speak about the trails, there’s still work to do.

Arrye Rosser [02:14:52] And I think one of the things that we’re certainly struggling with on the national park side, and it happens with any organization that’s largely white that’s sort of doing this kind of work, whether they’re new or doing it for a while, it’s just kind of like, what’s our best role? And I wondered if you had any, like, thoughts about. Now you hear the term allies used a lot. I wondered if you had some thoughts about how national parks can. Or metro parks can just be better allies to people like yourself that are trying to do this work.

Kim Woodford [02:15:40] Well, I think just continue doing what you’re doing. Number one, you’re connecting. You know, we’re building our relationship with one another. And you respect the work that I do, I respect the work that you do, and we share, but also, like I said, you know, stronger. The stronger allies become friends and will continue to do some of the hard work that is needed to be done within. Predominantly white spaces. And who, I heard, I’ve been saying this all along, too. You know, this diversity, equity, and inclusion is a commitment. It’s not a movement. It’s a commitment or a moment. It’s a commitment. And it’s more than just a commitment in your place of employment. It has to expand into your personal space. And as I been learning with many of, you know, my white friends, my white allies, that’s not always easy to do. But I say-

Arrye Rosser [02:17:17] I can reflect on that a lot, too, to be really honest. Like, I’m- I think I have- My life has become more segregated as I’ve gotten older, and I. And kind of try to unpack that a bit to think, how did that happen? And I don’t know if some of it has to do with segregation for where we live. And there’s a little bit of a geographical thing that makes it a little more complicated or if it’s- People get shy, it’s probably complicated and hard to understand until you start overcoming it.

Kim Woodford [02:17:56] But let’s say this. You know the, where, you know, the, the dinner conversations that could have taken place at family gatherings. Let’s say that. That the opportunities to create dialogue during the two Coopers incident over in, was that Rockefeller Park in, in New York Christian and Christian and the other young lady Cooper in the birding space conversations definitely had opportunities during the George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery, the killings that were going on about the, about the racial disparities, racial inequity, racial violence at the hands of the officers who are to want to protect. Those things could have happened because people still. There are still people who feel that George Floyd did something wrong in that scenario. But had it been an animal, a little doggy that. And don’t get me wrong, I love my fur babies because I got three of them. If, if he had had his neck or, or if he had killed an animal on live television like that, many of those while we had an enormous. I don’t want to call it uproar, but that’s what it was of. Of, you know, reckoning with this. It would have been even greater had it been an animal. So, so let’s- So there’s still people who don’t- Who still can’t compute it. But, but still there are areas. There’s a need to have tough conversations within your personal space in order to help just dismantle this ugly thing we call racism. And with conversations, yes, should follow up with action.

Arrye Rosser [02:20:43] Yeah, I totally agree with you. I think it. It sort of feels like it’s definitely just been a heavy time. That’s given us a lot to think about. But then we have the. What are we going to do about that? I’ve thought a lot about that from the Black Lives Matter just in terms of my own life. It’s a little bit why I, I’m glad that I have this project to work on because I think this is actually part of Black Lives Mattering because we’re essentially curating black stories into the national narrative. That’s part of mattering, you know, has a lot of facets to it, I think. So it makes me wonder that kind of sense of what- It’s almost like there’s never really going to be enough to totally heal it. But how can you kind of go on that journey where you’re not adding to being it being painful, but you’re helping make it be better?

Kim Woodford [02:21:53] Yeah. And that’s-

Arrye Rosser [02:21:55] None of us can fix this, you know, individually. 

Kim Woodford [02:21:59] Correct, correct. It has to be a collective, as you said. And so, you know, that’s where it has to. I mean, because, you know, we’ve, you know, Black folks have been dealing with this forever to the point where, you know, they, you know, people think that that’s all we think about. We’re actually- Well, because a lot of things are so, in this society are predicated upon race. And let me go back to that other part of what, what you, you can do as park administrators and staff, that in this space that we have, I’ve learned, you know, in terms of the work that we do just in respecting that and know that these, you know, working in these partnerships is a good thing because for so many years, you know, you know, Blacks have volunteered while other folks got paid to do the work. And, and that needs to change. And I think it is changing to, to a degree, just some work, because even just volunteer, you know, we can look at volunteerism in itself and see that, that, that was, that is actually built on racial, racial, racist structure.

Arrye Rosser [02:23:21] Yeah. And. Well, I think there’s kind of, you know, sometimes volunteerism can be training kind of a thing when people are interested in coming into it. I think of a lot of young people that come in through volunteers and then they have a transition into paid employment. I think someone like yourself, I think we have to think about how do we like chase. You know, essentially we’re all sort of chasing money to make work happen. A lot of times we, it’s like you need the cash to be able to do the projects. But I know on our end, a lot of times we don’t focus very well until we got a grant. And then we’re like, we got to do it because we got a grant, you know, and that’s kind of the thing that keeps us a bit more honest and focused is having that. And I think that’s building in the wealth sharing of that. Not that we’re getting wealthy on it, but you know what I mean? Like.

Kim Woodford [02:24:27] Right, right, right. Yeah. No one’s getting wealthy.

Arrye Rosser [02:24:31] But how does, how do we help make the kind of outdoor work be a career possibility for a lot of, you know, if you want to be a self employed person doing this, not just to work for the government or something, how does the economics of that work imagine you’re thinking about that too. Do you- What do you do? I’m forgetful about what you do in your day job, Kim. Do you have environmental level- You don’t have to say where you work, but do you have an environmental-related career, or is it totally different?

Kim Woodford [02:25:10] Totally different, yeah. Yeah, totally different.

Arrye Rosser [02:25:14] Do you have tried to be self-sufficient for doing this for work or in retirement?

Kim Woodford [02:25:22] Have I? You know what, Arrye?

Arrye Rosser [02:25:29] It starts becoming work.

Kim Woodford [02:25:33] Yeah. You know what? This is something I do want to do when I, you know, to move into retirement with. But I’m hoping to set myself in a- and when you ask me what’s next and I speak and I told you about the health and wellness, you know, I’m- I’m trying to invest in myself, to position myself in a better space to make that happen, be it before retirement or post. So, yeah, I mean, and when I say it, it’s because I just could see myself there and I could see myself being happy in that and doing this work. And so, yeah, as a, you know, I don’t, I don’t, you know, in terms of, you know, the compensation as a retirement plan, probably not. But I want to be able to still do something where I can, you know, to do this, do this space and if it’s a livable something for me to, to live off of the better.

Arrye Rosser [02:26:50] Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I think Erich had some questions in here. I’m looking for some of the notes talked about. Just the legacy of. This is coming from the article that you wrote the conservancy magazine about the legacy of segregation keeping many public parks. Many of them were segregated either formally or informally, depending on what part of the country you were in. And I wondered if you had any thoughts about just how parks, whether it’s national parks or other parks, just address that kind of history. Like, what would you like to see? Do you like to see us talking about that? I kind of feel like we need to talk about it. And I’ve been thinking about the nature of what that looks like. I don’t know if you have just had thoughts about- 

Kim Woodford [02:27:46] Talking about the racial- 

Arrye Rosser [02:27:53] The history of- Especially in the North, where I don’t think people who are white really understand that many public spaces were segregated with Black laws. Like, I think that’s still kind of a surprise that you couldn’t go to Summit Lake or something like that if you were Black.

Kim Woodford [02:28:14] Because nobody tells the stories. It’s just like what we’re dealing with right now. But they’re calling the critical race theory and fighting against it. You know, you’re not telling the stories. You’re- You gotta, you gotta- You have to tell the full American story. Stop making, you know, it needs to be told. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to go in- But it has to be told.

Arrye Rosser [02:28:38] Yeah.

Kim Woodford [02:28:39] And how will it be told? You know, can your organization tell that story? Well, you bear responsibility as a National Park Service. That’s my first thought. So why not?

Arrye Rosser [02:28:52] Yeah, I mean, I feel like that too. It’s interesting because I feel like it’s not the simplest story to understand. And I think once we get this is just me talking on my- Like we were doing these initial set of interviews to kind of help us kind of curate kind of certain set of stories that we knew about and then go out into the broader public and on a bit more of a search for things. But I am not really sure when you know anything about the segregation history of the parks in Akron or Cleveland. Like, I just don’t technically know that. And I would, I’m hoping at some point maybe through the work that we’re doing, community members or park folks that work in parks might help us understand what that was like. Was it formal segregation? Was it informal segregation? And when did it change? And clearly people still have more- People of color still have a memory of it, because they don’t feel completely comfortable coming to the park. So kind of like if we don’t address it, we’re never going to get past it.

Kim Woodford [02:30:14] So. Yeah, and so you, so, and maybe that’s where you, you work with, you know, partners to help curate the story.

Arrye Rosser [02:30:24] Or even just know it.

Kim Woodford [02:30:26] Pardon me?

Arrye Rosser [02:30:27] Even just know it. It’s like, was it even written down somewhere or not?

Kim Woodford [02:30:34] Yeah, I don’t know. I, I have no idea if it was written down. But, but you have a lot of, you, you have Black codes, and believe it or not, Black codes did exist up this way.

Arrye Rosser [02:30:46] Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Kim Woodford [02:30:49] So having being able to dig those up, to have tangible proof of Black code, Black laws will, will help. But you know, like me, I’ve curated a couple of hikes I call my interpretive hike to tell stories of a space that wasn’t told before. For example, the Euclid Creek beat, the Euclid Beach, the Euclid, the big amusement park that was there once upon a time while that. And it, and it was- And it did not allow Black folk to come in there. And then when they finally did, it was for one day and for so long, you know, certain- You can only stay regulated in a certain part of the park. But I believe through what happened later sparked a riot that was in part the start of its demise.

Arrye Rosser [02:31:59] Yeah.

Kim Woodford [02:32:01] So, but that story is not told when you go on certain interpretive walks in that space and I know this because I’ve experienced it.

Arrye Rosser [02:32:12] Yeah.

Kim Woodford [02:32:13] And so I had to curate my own on that. And so, so those who conversations are needed and mind you, I didn’t just focus on this part saying that it was a race, you know, the owners were racist and didn’t want Black folk. I said it was like the biggest park of its kind in the nation at that point. And then there are other points of interest and facts that took place in that space and that history of that space that happens that don’t necessarily are not necessarily racially pointed or centered. So I’m telling, so I say that to you again. I’m telling what I believe to be a full story of the space, not just a one sided story.

Arrye Rosser [02:33:09] I think that it was no different than any. I have to kind of look at the dates and stuff but my understanding of it, it was probably no different than any of these, these amusement spaces were real popular for quite a long time and I think that’s just how it was and it, it would be interesting to know if there was exceptions to that and when things changed and just all of it. You know, it would be interesting to try to understand. I still think that a lot of white people just do not understand that, that that history and be kind of shocked by it. I feel like more important to talk to white people. Black people probably know it. But I’d be curious to talk to Black people about what they remember of it because probably the senior citizen age people, you know, they would have a living memory. I’m like you were about- Born about the same time. So Civil Rights Act in ’64 would have been change factor probably for a lot of this.

Kim Woodford [02:34:19] I would say you should, [crosstalk] I’m sorry you, you’re right and I think you should. That, that’s a good point. Talk to someone that is of a older Baby Boomer age earlier but not just Black but white as well.

Arrye Rosser [02:34:37] Yeah.

Kim Woodford [02:34:37] To give those, you know, share their memories and yeah, that’s, it’s those, those stories are needed and if, you know, my thing is if I, if I don’t hear it, I’m going to try. If I feel like it, I’m to going to curate it myself and make sure. Of course I’m telling- You know, I’m going to, to give- My, my interpretation based on fact and I will add some antidote anecdotes in it. That’s fine. But let’s, let’s understand where we are fully.

Arrye Rosser [02:35:12] Are there any like this? I sort of asked it to before, but more like in a hero standpoint. But as thinking of a little bit more of just historical stories of people of color who associate with the outdoors the Buffalo Soldiers tend to get- The Shelton Johnson ranger at Yosemite has done a really good job at bringing their story into greater prominence. I just sort of wondered if there was stories that, that you tend to resonate with or you tend to share with the people that you’re leading hikes with that help kind of connect the Black narratives that are positive into outdoor spaces favorites.

Kim Woodford [02:36:02] So I’m sorry, can you ask that question again, please?

Arrye Rosser [02:36:06] Yeah, well, like know if you’re familiar with Shelton Johnson react very famous. I call him a celebrity ranger and I remember him coming to speak at Cuyahoga Valley before he was real famous. Such greatness. He, he was this young getting started on the Buffalo stories, Buffalo Soldier story that he’s become so well known for. But I wondered if there was just stories of if there was other stories or that buffalo soldiers or any of that that were kind of historical in nature that that kind of resonate with you as you’re trying to kind of reframe how stories about, you know, people of color in the outdoors.

Kim Woodford [02:36:57] Well, yes, they resonate with me. And I love Ranger Shelton. He’s amazing. And I love Betty. Ranger Betty Soskin. She is the 98 probably 100-year-old ranger over there at Rosie the Riveter National Park in California. She has slowed down quite a bit. I understand. I just had a conversation asking about her.

Arrye Rosser [02:37:23] She has to slow down, man. 

Kim Woodford [02:37:26] Yeah, yeah. I think her health- Is that causing her to do that? You know, with age. I have going with that. I have honored or paid homage to the ever iconic Harriet Tubman.

Arrye Rosser [02:37:56] I was thinking about it too.

Kim Woodford [02:37:58] Yeah. I hosted night hikes and, and speaking, you know, taking folk on that journey to not just not. We’re not just on a hike. You’re gonna hear a little bit. Let’s talk about this so that you can get a full breadth of understanding of what she could have possibly gone through and what those who she, you know, rescued from the oppressive south could have been going through while trying to escape to their freedom of the North. So yeah, I’ve done that. You know, Carter G. Woodson is incredible and he- And in this natural space he may not be given enough credit.

Arrye Rosser [02:38:48] I don’t know who he is. Tell me who he is.

Kim Woodford [02:38:51] Carter G. Woodson is-

Arrye Rosser [02:38:53] Oh yeah, yeah.

Kim Woodford [02:38:54] The peanut, the farmer, the botanist.

Arrye Rosser [02:38:57] Oh, yeah, yeah.

Kim Woodford [02:39:01] Yeah.

Arrye Rosser [02:39:03] George Washington Carver.

Kim Woodford [02:39:04] Oh, I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. Carter G. Woodson is a historian. Yeah. George Washington Carver.

Arrye Rosser [02:39:10] Is Woodson the father of- of Black History Month? I got that right.

Kim Woodford [02:39:17] Woodson. Carter G. Woodson.

Arrye Rosser [02:39:19] Yeah. The historian. Yeah. So, yeah, it sounds like I- I feel like doing this kind of research which Erich and I have been really diving into, and we’ve had some others helping us with it as well. I think we will, when we’re done, feel like we’ve put like a Black narrative going back into the 1800s in the Cuyahoga Valley. And we certainly have about a hundred-year history of Black recreation in the Cuyahoga Valley starting, I think the earliest that I found is African American Girl Scouts coming in the ’20s, which is really interesting. I mean, that’s a- That’s pretty much- They’re coming when all the white- When white kids were first starting to come, that was the ’20s. So that’s just really, like, I would love to know that backstory.

Kim Woodford [02:40:17] Absolutely, absolutely.

Arrye Rosser [02:40:20] I don’t know if we could get there or not, but I’m hoping maybe somewhere in the community there’s some knowledge about that. I wonder just as well, kind of doing this, like, dive into history if you have questions that you’re kind of curious about and have anything that would really resonate with you and you’re sort of dying to know.

Kim Woodford [02:40:44] Well, I know with you, Ari, we’ve talked for years here about, you know, your work that you’re doing to help, you know, find those untold stories of, you know, untold stories of African Americans connected to the park space, to the park, which is amazing. I love it and you’ve done incredible work. But what I also would like to say, and maybe people would see it differently than I do as well. When we talked about, you know, creating those changes within our own environment and having, you know, white people, you know, do that needed work to disband or dismantle parts of the races, taking, taking a, taking a bite out of that that sour lemon, right. To tell a story. But while there may not be a ton of stories down in the park that speak to African Americans, because what you said here, point was, to your point was this, you said, but I don’t think a lot of people know about. White people know about the Black code, about the Black laws and what have you. So why do we- so why do we keep it just here locally? Why can’t we even tell the story of what happened somewhere else? But still, as it relates to our national parks.

Arrye Rosser [02:42:30] Yeah, we have to tell the story. It doesn’t make us look so good or does or not, but whatever.

Kim Woodford [02:42:41] We still just tell the story. I think. I think, you know, we gotta. We gotta tell the full story so that- So that- And it’s not always good, but- But this is where we are now, and this is how we can continue to work to move the needle up to full. Where right now we’re- We’re so on empty, sometimes it feels like we’re against it.

Arrye Rosser [02:43:04] Yeah. Well, I feel like. I hope that the. By taking some time to really get these stories into the web environment that we’re going to create sort of a kind of maybe think of it like a scaffolding where other people can add their stories in to help us flush it all out and understand it better. Because I think some of them might be scholars that have been researching this and can help. I know I’m not history. Eric’s learning history, but, you know, he’s in a seasonal job, so kind of coming and going. And we’re trying to try to make sure we’re understanding it because it’s. I think it’s murky on purpose, isn’t it? It’s meant to be murky. And until you sort of daylight it and pin it down, put some words and flush it out, and as human stories, it’s easy to dismiss it. But I think that maybe by being the national park and talking about it, that helps. And if we can’t do it in an urban, you know, an urban space, who’s doing it? You know, we gotta step up. Yeah.

Kim Woodford [02:44:30] So now you’re going to use these- these as archives and use. And you’re going to use some of what we did to create change within the park. Is that what I’m hearing?

Arrye Rosser [02:44:40] That’s what I’m hoping. I see it as, you know, that we’re. We’re creating. I think we’re. When. We’ll circle back with you when we go to put in, right. Decide sort of how to present what you’ve been sharing with us in writing. I think we’re still kind of wrapping our heads around the oral histories and thinking of the way that we want to present it. But we can kind of work together to figure out how to do that and how to- I think that, you know, we can do sound clips, too. That might be good discussion points as we’re, you know, people want to use them for programs or quotes or. I think that there. There’s a variety of ways that we can use it to spark discussion. You know, I think we needed to listen first and then try to understand and then put a back out there for feedback and then let other people kind of make it what they want to do with it too. I’m hoping it’s a tool for you as well as a tool for us.

Kim Woodford [02:45:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Arrye Rosser [02:45:55] Aren’t you just dying to know what everybody else said? I haven’t listened to all of them. I’m dying here.

Kim Woodford [02:46:02] Who did? [02:46:02] You- You- So you got Whitney. Is there anyone else that I know?

Arrye Rosser [02:46:07] Well, there’s folks that were. Let me get into the list of the oral history. We haven’t done it. We haven’t been doing tons of. We’ve been sort of doing a combination of research work and also present day people. So we were working on sort of you, Whitney and whenever we can pin the Hoods down.

Kim Woodford [02:46:35] I was going to ask. Yeah, yeah.

Arrye Rosser [02:46:38] They’ve been hard to pin down. You guys are kind of exploring that sort of nonprofit organizations that are youth or recreational focus doing things in the park and kind of as partner organizations. We’ve also got. We did oral histories with Carl Stokes’s son, Cordell.

Kim Woodford [02:47:03] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You did say that. Yeah.

Arrye Rosser [02:47:06] Louis Stokes son Chuck. And we were looking at policy and how to frame them as kind of as political leaders and their influence on the environment and kind of how they kind of the roots of that and how they perceived the environment from more of a political side. Erich’s been working on previous oral history that was done with Sylvia Hood Washington who’s an academic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that into light. And then we have. We did Sean Veney, Veney. I think he’s a longtime volunteer with the train. He’s African American, is really interested in train stuff. And then we did two employees. We have another one who was employed in the ’80s that have. We’ve been trying to chase her down because she had a real prestigious career in the park service. Gail Hazelwood. And so we haven’t got her scheduled, but she keeps traveling all the time. She’s busy. But she said, yes, we’ll get. We’ll catch her. And then we had. Joyce Elitch is somebody who is part of the. She’s the eldest woman still alive. She’s probably at least in her 80s who’s part of the extended African American family that lived in the Valley in the ’30s and ’40s.

Kim Woodford [02:48:37] Awesome.

Arrye Rosser [02:48:38] So we’ve been- And then I want to do oral histories. The lot of folks that we haven’t quite. There’s more people in that family that we want to chase down, but they’ve had some health issues and things. I made that a little complicated.

Kim Woodford [02:48:54] Can I- can I ask you to hold for just one moment? Someone just walked, Ari. Yeah, I gotta. I gotta. I gotta run off.

Arrye Rosser [02:49:23] Yeah, okay. Well, that has just been lovely to talk to you and.

Kim Woodford [02:49:27] Likewise. I hope I helped. Oh, you are.

Arrye Rosser [02:49:30] You’ve been this wonderful. And I’ll see you at the Urban Vines event.

Kim Woodford [02:49:34] Thank you. I’m looking forward to seeing you, darling.

Arrye Rosser [02:49:37] All right. You take care.

Kim Woodford [02:49:38] Okay, Arrye, take care. Bye. Bye, Erich. Bye-bye. Thank you. Take care.

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