Abstract
Shawn Hoefler created and runs the website clevelandskyscrapers.com where he posts photos and text about the buildings and architecture around the city. He has also published a book on the same subject. In this 2005 interview, he discusses the buildings of Cleveland and some of the history, especially the old post office building. He also discusses the architecture firm of Walker and Weeks and their work in Cleveland.
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Interviewee
Hoefler, Shawn (interviewee)
Interviewer
Kaiser, Andrew (interviewer);Yanoshik-Wing, Emma (participant)
Project
History 311
Date
10-24-2005
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
50 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Shawn Hoefler Interview, 2005" (2005). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 311002.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/179
Transcript
Andrew Kaiser [00:00:00] Okay, you’re set. I’m Andrew Kaiser interviewing Shawn Hoefler. The date is October 21, 2005. Okay, so I’m here with author, webmaster, tour guide, and architecture connoisseur Shawn Hoefler. To start out, you live in Cleveland?
Shawn Hoefler [00:00:16] I do.
Andrew Kaiser [00:00:17] How long you been a resident?
Shawn Hoefler [00:00:18] I’ve been living in Greater Cleveland probably about 10 years, and in Cleveland proper for about five.
Andrew Kaiser [00:00:24] And before that?
Shawn Hoefler [00:00:26] I originally grew up in Salem, Ohio, which is about 30 miles south of Youngstown.
Andrew Kaiser [00:00:32] Do you have anything that sticks out to you about living in Cleveland or anything?
Shawn Hoefler [00:00:37] Obviously the built environment, the architecture, the lake. I mean, there’s just so many different things on that level. And then the fact that it’s one of the larger cities, it’s still pretty affordable by most people’s standards. Yeah, it’s a good thing for me.
Andrew Kaiser [00:00:57] So you are- Do you want to tell me your job?
Shawn Hoefler [00:01:00] Yeah, I work as a graphic designer. I’m an art director for an engineering magazine, which kind of ties into the- I’m not an architect by trade, but I am working in a somewhat related field.
Andrew Kaiser [00:01:11] Okay, and how and when did you first become interested in architecture?
Shawn Hoefler [00:01:16] It was one of those questions people ask, you know, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I wanted to be an architect, but my math skills were a little substandard, to say the least, so I ended up going into graphic design. So.
Andrew Kaiser [00:01:29] Okay, how long have you been working at this? How long have you been doing this?
Shawn Hoefler [00:01:35] The graphic design that I’ve been doing for about 12 years now.
Andrew Kaiser [00:01:39] Okay, and what is ClevelandSkyscrapers.com?
Shawn Hoefler [00:01:43] It’s a nonprofit website that is dedicated to providing images and information about the architecture of not only Cleveland, but northeastern Ohio cities including Akron, Canton, and Youngstown. I started it in the mid-’90s on sort of a free for all unpaid website, and it just sort of snowballed into a hobby of taking photos and collecting information, mainly through, like, the library and different sources. And I just compiled all that, and it’s just become sort of a side hobby for me and then eventually led into publishing the book.
Andrew Kaiser [00:02:19] And it mainly focuses on Cleveland’s architecture. The downtown Cleveland?
Shawn Hoefler [00:02:23] Yeah. I tried to keep it limited. And even with keeping it limited between, say, Cleveland State and the Cuyahoga, there was still plenty of stuff that I had to leave out just because of space concerns. Okay.
Andrew Kaiser [00:02:36] And for the record, when did this. When did it go online?
Shawn Hoefler [00:02:40] My website officially has a domain name of clevelandskyscrapers.com, went online in July of 2000.
Andrew Kaiser [00:02:46] July of 2000. Okay. Any future plans for the website?
Shawn Hoefler [00:02:52] Pretty much keep it going, keep building on it. I keep saying, oh, you know, maybe I should take a break, and then I’ll have my camera with me. And there will be a- You notice the little subtle things like weather changes or whatever, and it just gives a new lighting pattern on a building or something that just really makes it stand out.
Andrew Kaiser [00:03:10] When you go on your website, you’ve got these different views and some spectacular views, but it’s obvious that you have an interest in exterior design and skylines and all that. Do you have any interest in interior?
Shawn Hoefler [00:03:22] It’s one of those things where when I started out, just sort of being the architecture enthusiast, it was more of an exterior thing. But as I learned more about it, you know, it’s grown into appreciating not only the interiors of the buildings, but, you know, their site plan, even a little bit of urban planning, which, you know, it’s kind of like those side things you learn as you go along.
Andrew Kaiser [00:03:46] Okay. I’m doing my report on the Old Post Office, which is on West 3rd and-
Shawn Hoefler [00:03:55] Huron and Prospect. [laughs] Yep. It’s part of the, you know, you know, the Terminal Tower Group. So it’s, you know, once you find the Terminal Tower, it’s pretty easy to find.
Andrew Kaiser [00:04:07] But as a segue into that art, it’s an Art Deco building. And you want to tell us what Art Deco is?
Shawn Hoefler [00:04:14] Well, Art Deco was a movement that started, I believe, in the early 1900s. It came out of the school of decorative arts, I want to say, in Paris, and the- Basically the movement involved sort of a celebration of, like, industry, machinery, sort of the machine age, the industrial age, where instead of, you know, the nice frilly decorations of neoclassicism or anything else in Art Nouveau, Art Deco is more angular and geometric. And that reflects that whole machine age mentality. Pretty much ended in the 30s, along with the Depression. Art Deco and the whole Jazz Age and everything like that just kind of went hand in hand. And then when the Depression hit, people weren’t so happy about much of anything. So.
Andrew Kaiser [00:05:10] I read that this building in particular, the Post Office, is one of the last-
Shawn Hoefler [00:05:14] Yeah, it was planned, I think, in the late 1920s, but didn’t get started until, I want to say, 1933 or ’34.
Andrew Kaiser [00:05:22] It was a WPA- [inaudible]
Shawn Hoefler [00:05:25] Right. And I think that was one of the reasons that it actually went through was that instead of a private financer, it was a government project that was pretty much whether the Depression happened or not, it was going to go through.
Andrew Kaiser [00:05:35] And notable on the structure, on the outside, on the top, there’s gargoyle-like eagles. Now, this would be what you were talking about, the Gothic, the Art Deco.
Shawn Hoefler [00:05:49] It was more- That’s more the Old Post Office building. It’s one of the more restrained examples of Art Deco, pretty much, not only in Cleveland, but in the region. There’s plenty of little bits here and there that use an Art Deco motif, but overall, it’s one of the more simplified forms, which, given the size of the building, I think that’s why they went with that. You know, if they made everything super, you know, stylized, then it would be a little overwhelming.
Andrew Kaiser [00:06:22] Okay, this is something I probably should know, but when you go in there, the post office is only a section of the building, and I don’t know what the other part is for. Do you know what that was originally intended for or if it was the post office?
Shawn Hoefler [00:06:33] I believe because the building itself was built over the railroad tracks. It’s built on the air rights. Yeah. Back in the day, Cleveland was like the sixth largest- I think it was at that time, the sixth largest city in the United States. And so you had a lot of. The postal service back then was being used heavily. It’s built over the same railroad tracks that the terminal tower and everything else in that complex is built over. And they had different ways and methods of, I think pneumatic tubes of getting the mail down to the trains to send it out.
Andrew Kaiser [00:07:09] Yeah, yeah. I did read something that they had, like the first one of the first sorter machines.
Shawn Hoefler [00:07:13] Yeah. That. Yeah. I don’t know all the details of that, but it-
Andrew Kaiser [00:07:17] Like, eight times the work, doesn’t really relate to this, but to this discussion, but. Okay, I want to jump back. So we- You want to jump back to- I want to talk about your book a little bit.
Shawn Hoefler [00:07:27] Okay.
Andrew Kaiser [00:07:29] It’s called Cleveland’s Downtown Architecture.
Shawn Hoefler [00:07:32] That’s right.
Andrew Kaiser [00:07:32] And what’s, what’s on the cover? Is it-
Shawn Hoefler [00:07:35] That is a shot of the old federal building, which is now the Metzenbaum Courthouse and the library. And there’s a little bit of the BP Building in there and a corner of Public Square. It’s a view from the Terminal Tower observation deck.
Andrew Kaiser [00:07:49] When did you begin writing it? It says that you published it in December of 2003.
Shawn Hoefler [00:07:53] Right. In about 2002, there was the National Historic Preservation Organization had their conference in Cleveland. And I was contacted a little bit before then by the folks at Arcadia Publishing’s Midwest Acquisitions office. They asked me. They had said they came across my site Said it was really informative, had a lot of interesting information and images. And they’d asked me if I’d ever written a book or had any interest. And I was like, not really. Can’t say that I have. And at the conference, they said, well, if you’d like to meet us, you know, you can show us around town. We can talk a little bit about everything. And basically sat down with them after walking around, and that’s where they got the. There’s a caption on there saying the leg. Weary tourists. And that’s because I pretty much walked them all over downtown just showing them things here and there. And it was in the Huntington Building at Sammy’s on the 21st floor that we pretty much signed a deal to put the book together. And that was 2002, so about a year and a half later it was published.
Andrew Kaiser [00:08:57] So is it just a publication of your website?
Shawn Hoefler [00:08:59] Basically.
Andrew Kaiser [00:09:00] Are there editorials?
Shawn Hoefler [00:09:02] It’s a little more simplified than my website, just because, again, there’s more stuff on my website than there is in the book because of space constraints. And my book is more oriented towards people like myself, architectural enthusiasts. It’s not meant to be a hugely scholarly research book. I like to have good information in there and have good photos and everything. But there’s people who write far better technical papers and books than I do, and I happily leave that up to them.
Andrew Kaiser [00:09:37] Is there a particular focus on the book? Maybe like a favorite building, maybe, or one that gets more attention than others?
Shawn Hoefler [00:09:45] Some of the landmark buildings that people pretty much instantly recognize. I devoted some attention to the Terminal Tower, obviously. Key Tower, the Old Arcade, A few other buildings I tried to focus on just because I knew people would be really interested in seeing them.
Andrew Kaiser [00:10:04] Do you prefer the older or the newer, like the Terminal Tower or the BP building?
Shawn Hoefler [00:10:10] I can honestly appreciate both. You know, I think the older buildings give us a sense of, you know, where we’ve been. The newer buildings give us a sense of where we’re going. You know, I love the fact that Key Tower, you can see it from, you know, the Turnpike, you can see it from, you know, pretty much all over northeastern Ohio, you know, and, you know, not too many cities can say, you know, that they have, you know, just because of our topography, you know. You know, Pittsburgh has some great buildings, but, you know, they’re all hidden by the mountains.
Andrew Kaiser [00:10:38] So, okay, Terminal Tower is referred to as the Great Dame. Any.
Shawn Hoefler [00:10:44] The Grande Dame. Yeah, it’s the Grande Dame. That’s okay. It’s more the fact that it’s a Lot more- You know, it’s such a tall building. It’s such a, you know, for its time, it’s, you know, it was, you know, the tallest building outside of New York for almost, I think, 30 years. And it’s just, you know, compared to the BP building, compared to Key Tower and these other huge, huge buildings, it’s pretty. You know, the decoration, I mean, it goes all the way up to the top that, you know, you have to have binoculars to appreciate the very top. You know, the cornices and everything like that. But the fact that they still did it, you know, it’s. And it’s still not even ostentatious. You know.
Andrew Kaiser [00:11:27] How does that compare to the Art Deco we were talking about before? What style is the-
Shawn Hoefler [00:11:31] That would be considered Neoclassicism.
Andrew Kaiser [00:11:33] And that comes where in the timeline? Or is there a timeline?
Shawn Hoefler [00:11:36] People tend to- They pick up on that, you know, every so often. It was popular pretty much in the late 1800s through as late as the ’40s. And some people have even suggested it’s almost like the Stalinist buildings in Russia.
Andrew Kaiser [00:11:56] Okay, to get back to the post office and the Art Deco, beyond the post office, what buildings does the Art Deco influence?
Shawn Hoefler [00:12:06] Basically, the design in downtown Cleveland, there’s a few. The most significant would be the Ohio Bell Huron Road building, or it’s now SBC. It’s the one that inspired the writers of the Superman comic book to- That inspired the Daily Planet Building with sort of the setbacks and everything else. There’s a few buildings that Walker and Weeks, who did the old Post Office building, they did the. I think it’s the Schulte Building that is now the site of the Marriott Residence Inn on Euclid and 6th. They did the remake of the Euclid Avenue entrance to the Arcade. And that’s very much Art Deco in style. If you look at it, people think it’s all Victorian because it was built in 1890. Well, they don’t realize there was this renovation in the late ’20s that Walker and Weeks worked on in the Art Deco style.
Andrew Kaiser [00:13:00] I thought I read- I covered these buildings, in particular the courthouse and the library. Were those just Walker and Weeks buildings, or were those Art Deco?
Shawn Hoefler [00:13:10] No, those are very much neoclassicism, even though some people would probably say they’re- I believe it’s Beaux Arts. B-E-A-U-X. I’m not the best French speaker, so those pretty much fall under that category as well.
Andrew Kaiser [00:13:25] Walker and Weeks didn’t just specialize in an Art Deco design.
Shawn Hoefler [00:13:29] They kind of waver between a lot of Neoclassicism, you’ll find that pretty much the case. And then Art Deco seemed to be sort of a later trend for them.
Andrew Kaiser [00:13:42] Walker and Weeks is, is a big part of my project. I was wondering if you can enlighten me on anything relating to them. Do you know when they started, when their company went out, anything?
Shawn Hoefler [00:13:56] I think one of the last things they worked on there were some pieces in the ’50s that might have been- I think that’s when they were wrapping up. And it’s like a lot of people have said, it’s pretty unheard of for architectural firms back in the day to go as long as they did. And the only other one that most people can think of is Burnham and Root, which, it’s the same. They use the term architectural factory to describe them. And it’s not an insult at all to say that they churned out designs. It was just the fact they did so much work in such a long, extensive period.
Andrew Kaiser [00:14:33] Okay, back to your bio here. It says that you give tours of Cleveland.
Shawn Hoefler [00:14:40] I do, pretty much on an informal basis. There’s also sort of an online architectural- We call ourselves geeks just because we’re not architects. We don’t claim to be, although some people may work somewhere close to the business. But we’ve met and we’ve had meetings of upwards of 20 to 30 people that do walking tours and you know, just-
Andrew Kaiser [00:15:05] You ever think about driving a Lolly the Trolley?
Shawn Hoefler [00:15:09] Having been on Lolly the Trolley, I can absolutely appreciate what those people do. If I was to drive Lolly the Trolley, there would be some unfortunate incidents because I would get easily distracted. I’m a better guide than a driver, I’ll just put it that way.
Andrew Kaiser [00:15:23] I mean doing it officially, anything, is that just a leisure?
Shawn Hoefler [00:15:27] Maybe. Well, because Cleveland, there’s a lot of great things about Cleveland. Unfortunately the weather’s not always one of them. So it would have to be a seasonal thing and I have to pay my bills. And it’s something that would be nice to do on a full time, year round basis. But I don’t know how realistic that would be. But it’s something I’ve considered at least just on the side.
Andrew Kaiser [00:15:54] Okay, let me talk a little bit about the Euclid Corridor Project. It doesn’t just relate to Euclid Avenue. It extends to the places that are, well, that are in conjunction with Euclid Avenue.
Shawn Hoefler [00:16:04] Right.
Andrew Kaiser [00:16:09] What do you think of Euclid Avenue? I mean, it’s kind of shoddy in some places and I think that it needs a re- [crosstalk]
Shawn Hoefler [00:16:15] No, it definitely needs- Yeah, it definitely needs polished up. I think a lot of, especially maybe Clevelanders, more. So there’s this. It’s almost like an inferiority complex, as though, you know, other cities across the nation don’t have, you know, a rundown Main street that, you know, needs to be patched up. They all- Almost all of them do.
Andrew Kaiser [00:16:39] So do you think Clevelanders embrace that?
Shawn Hoefler [00:16:41] Well, they think that, you know, oh, it’s run down, it’s terrible. And they think that, you know, oh, there’s just no hope when reality is. It’s like. No, it’s, you know, Euclid Avenue’s been there. The people have left. You know, when you decentralize a city and take away all the. The big draw for Euclid used to be the retail. Well, the retail moved out to the suburbs along with everyone else. So they have to find a new use for it. And the best way that I’ve seen them do it is just this whole adaptive reuse and just using historic preservation finance credits to take care of the buildings, polish them up. And I think the fact that Cleveland’s managed to do that on such a large scale, they’ve been able to finally get something like the Euclid Corridor going.
Andrew Kaiser [00:17:30] From an architectural standpoint, if you were to speak to a Euclid Avenue restoration committee, what would you suggest in terms of fixing up, making the older buildings look better or building new buildings or something?
Shawn Hoefler [00:17:44] As far as making the older ones look better? I think again, Cleveland has- Aside from- I think New York City had the Penn Station demolition and Cleveland had the Euclid Avenue mansions being all demolished and everything. And I think that’s kind of the shot in the arm that the preservation movement in Cleveland needed. What I would suggest is the older buildings that exist. There’s a stretch between 9th and 14th that’s probably on the street level, the most run down. But if you look up, some of the older buildings are, you know, they look in pretty good shape and they’re just beautiful, gorgeous. You know, nice scale, like seven- to eight-story buildings that, you know, little elbow grease and a little creative-
Andrew Kaiser [00:18:27] Especially by 6th down there or further down between 4th and-
Shawn Hoefler [00:18:31] Yeah, and those, you know, those- I mean, I remember when I first moved up this way and started working in downtown, you know, these buildings were just dilapidated and falling apart. And, you know, it’s one of those things. You don’t notice it every single day. It’s like, geez, I wish they would fix it up. And then you look back a few years from then and it’s like wow, they’re pretty much patched up. People are living up there now. And that was almost unheard of maybe 10 years ago.
Andrew Kaiser [00:18:56] Something I wanted to ask you earlier, I forgot to- Where did you go to school?
Shawn Hoefler [00:19:00] I went to Kent State University.
Andrew Kaiser [00:19:02] Did you major in- [inaudible]
Shawn Hoefler [00:19:04] I actually started out as a graphic design major. There were some issues with the school of thought that they use. It’s a great program. I would never take anything away from that. But it wasn’t the best fit for me. So I ended up going into fine crafts, which was actually jewelry and metalsmithing. [laughs] Yeah. It’s kind of weird how that worked out. And then eventually just ended up working in graphic design.
Andrew Kaiser [00:19:30] Anyways, so you grew up in Salem, right? And you went to Kent State.
Shawn Hoefler [00:19:37] Yep.
Andrew Kaiser [00:19:39] So basically how did you develop- I know I asked this, but how did you develop the interest? Well, you go from these like rural places-
Shawn Hoefler [00:19:44] Oh yeah.
Andrew Kaiser [00:19:46] And not really seeing many big tall buildings.
Shawn Hoefler [00:19:48] Yeah. In my hometown the tallest building was the hospital where I was born. And that’s like four stories, you know, and population’s maybe about 11,000 people.
Andrew Kaiser [00:19:56] Just like from TV or trips to the city, maybe?
Shawn Hoefler [00:19:59] It was, it was actually, I remember it to a T. It was coming over the 480 bridge, the Valley View Bridge. My dad actually used to play rugby all the time and he would, you know, we would go with him wherever he was playing and my mom and I and my brother would just, you know, go to, you know, whatever city he was playing in and you know, just to do some sightseeing and walking around and checking things out. And I remember, you know, I’d been to Youngstown, you know, and it’s like, okay, well that’s kind of cool. But when I was on 480 in the Valley View Bridge, I was about six years old and I looked out the window and I saw the Terminal Tower. And at the time the only other really tall building was the tower at Erieview. And you know, to a six-year-old kid that’s like, you know, it was like the Emerald City off in the distance. Like wow. I’ve never seen anything that tall in my life, you know, that I could remember. And so that kind of, you know, gave me the appreciation for it and, and my folks will testify to, you know, I just never really, I didn’t mind where I came from. But it wasn’t, they knew it was not going to be the place where I was going to live the rest of my life.
Andrew Kaiser [00:21:05] Okay, before you briefly compared them, Pittsburgh to Cleveland, how does Cleveland compare to other big cities? In terms of architecture, how unique is it? Some designs?
Shawn Hoefler [00:21:20] In all honesty, it’s not, you know, you’re not going to find a whole lot of crazy, out-there architecture. Like one of the big trends right now, especially in New York is you’re seeing a lot of these all-glass buildings that look, like they don’t even look- They look like these huge crystal shards which, you know, it’s really incredible what they’re doing with the materials and everything. But you’re going to have a hard time finding that kind of envelope pushing work in Cleveland just because Cleveland, as far as designwise and everything else, it’s a little more restrained than other cities are.
Andrew Kaiser [00:21:56] A lot of cities besides Cleveland making those newer designs?
Shawn Hoefler [00:22:01] There’s New York. Chicago is coming up with a few like that. There’s one in Philadelphia that’s like that. But it’s one of those things where, you know, I think at some point, you know, Cleveland’s gonna finally, you know, we realize we have all this historic architecture that so many other cities would love to have. And so, you know, now they’re, you know, maybe hopefully going to maybe try and push things a little more towards, you know, something interesting and envelope pushing.
Andrew Kaiser [00:22:27] Because when I used to go to Marquette in Milwaukee, driving through Chicago, I went onto a guy, I thought that while you’re waiting in the traffic for four hours, right.
Shawn Hoefler [00:22:39] I’ve been on the Dan Ryan Expressway. Oh yeah. [laughs]
Andrew Kaiser [00:22:42] So looking around it just to me, to an untrained eye it just seemed like Cleveland was a small, like a small section of Chicago. Just the buildings. I don’t know if I noticed anything unique about, except maybe the Terminal Tower.
Shawn Hoefler [00:22:56] kind of sticks out. I mean there is a lot of similarity just because, you know, if you look at the cities around the Great Lakes, you know, Detroit, Chicago, Buffalo, Cleveland, even Toledo, you’re going to see these buildings that were pretty much, you know, with the exception of Chicago, all these cities hit their peaks, you know, in the late, you know, early ’30s, you know, and that was about it. It was, it’s been a decline ever since. And you know, there hasn’t been much reason to build, you know, new buildings after that point. So whatever was built, you know, it’s sort of more of an anomaly than anything. Chicago, you know, is the birthplace of the skyscraper. I mean they, you know, I believe it was the Reliance Building was built there. And you know, once you set a precedent like that, I mean, they had their entire city wiped out by a fire. So, you know, they had a chance to Start from scratch. Well, if Cleveland had that chance back then, who’s to say that Cleveland wouldn’t have turned out a little differently? Another thing about other cities is, you know, one of our best assets is the lake. Well, it’s an asset unless you’re trying to build a skyscraper. Because when the glaciers came through, the lake pretty much dug out a whole bunch of sediment and dumped it right on the Lake Erie shoreline where downtown Cleveland sits. So if you want to build a building, a super-tall building in Chicago, you have to dig down probably about anywhere from 20 to 50 feet and you’re going to hit bedrock. Cleveland, you have to dig down about 200 feet, which added, you know, that adds up as far as expenses. So that’s why a lot of buildings in downtown are around 400 feet, because they can use a different technique.
Andrew Kaiser [00:24:33] Are there any new buildings being built in the Cleveland area?
Shawn Hoefler [00:24:36] There’s a few. There’s nothing right now. There’s nothing over 12 stories being planned. There’s one under construction right now that’s being wrapped up. That’s the pinnacle condos on west ninth and Lakeside. And there’s another one, it’s on the west bank of the Flats. It’s part of the Stonebridge development. It’s Stonebridge Plaza as opposed to Stonebridge Towers. And that’s going to be- It’s another 12-story building. It looks like it’s going to be a lot of like metal and glass. It’s going to be a really contemporary look for Cleveland, which I think will be nice, especially on that side of town.
Andrew Kaiser [00:25:11] You also have a cover on your website. Akron, Canton and Youngstown. How does Cleveland, I mean, are they growing cities based on their buildings?
Shawn Hoefler [00:25:21] I wouldn’t say that they’re grown as far as their infrastructure. They, they’re growing and replacing in spots. Akron has a really interesting project going on right now with their art museum. It’s one of the first designs by the group Coop Himmelb(l)au that’s being developed and actually under construction in the United States. And it’s really going to, I think, invigorate that part of downtown Akron. They’re also doing some work by the university over there, but there’s nothing really, you know, that you’re gonna, you know, people would be tourists for. I guarantee that once the art museum in Akron’s finished, people are gonna be making their way to see it.
Andrew Kaiser [00:26:03] When you’re talking about New York, what would you call that style of architecture? Like in the glass buildings you’re talking about?
Shawn Hoefler [00:26:11] Really, it’s just so new that it’s, you know, give it about 10 years and, you know, who knows? It’ll be the crystal movement. I don’t know.
Andrew Kaiser [00:26:19] Do you think something like that would benefit Cleveland if we had the-
Shawn Hoefler [00:26:23] If there was an actual legitimate reason to build it? I would think so. Just because it’s good for people’s psyche to see a city that’s changing and being built and under construction and things are happening. And on a grand scale like that, you can’t miss it. When Key Tower was being built, people knew, wow, wow, there’s something new. Whereas with these smaller projects, they’re great for filling in everything on the street level and getting some vibrancy that way, which. That’s always a great thing. But at some point, people kind of- There’s a little bit of excitement and a little bit of, hey, let’s see something happening.
Andrew Kaiser [00:27:04] So it’s an esteem problem, maybe.
Shawn Hoefler [00:27:08] Well, it’s that. And, of course, what’s the phrase? It’s the economy, stupid. There’s- There’s not much call for additional, you know, a million square feet of office space in downtown Cleveland when there’s a 20% office vacancy rate.
Andrew Kaiser [00:27:24] Do you think Clevelanders are more pessimistic than others? Than others, maybe?
Shawn Hoefler [00:27:28] Oh, absolutely.
Andrew Kaiser [00:27:31] River was on fire.
Shawn Hoefler [00:27:33] Well, and the thing is, I’ve known so many people who have visited Cleveland. They’ve moved to Cleveland from other cities, and they love it, you know, so much more than people who grew up here. People who grew up here, you know, all they can think of is all the negative things. And I don’t want to say that about everyone, but it’s just, unfortunately, more often the case than not.
Andrew Kaiser [00:27:54] The outsiders don’t talk like the Clevelanders do.
Shawn Hoefler [00:27:56] Oh, no. Outsiders. You know, they’re like- Well, it’s like, you know, technically, when I was growing up, I split my time evenly between Cleveland and Pittsburgh. And I’m not quite an outsider, still being from northeastern Ohio, but I still wasn’t really attached enough to know, like, oh, the years when the city went bankrupt and everything else. So, you know, I think that gives me a little bit more. I guess I’m glad because I don’t, you know, I’m not so attached to how it used to be, and I just see, well, okay, it definitely needs some work, but it’s- I see things changing and improving.
Andrew Kaiser [00:28:29] Okay, if we talk about Cleveland State for a minute, Fenn Tower. Is that anything special about that?
Shawn Hoefler [00:28:37] Yeah, that’s actually another. It’s definitely Art Deco in inspiration. It’s a little more- It’s definitely unusual. I mean, it’s not made out of limestone like a lot of the Art Deco buildings were, but it has those accents around the cornices and everything else that definitely give it that Art Deco flavor.
Andrew Kaiser [00:28:57] So it was built in those years, ’20s?
Shawn Hoefler [00:29:00] Yeah. It was actually built as, believe it or not, like the Union Club on Euclid and 12th, sort of a private men’s social club.
Andrew Kaiser [00:29:10] There’s, like, a ballroom in there.
Shawn Hoefler [00:29:11] Yeah. And it was just pretty much like, for the people to hobnob and, you know, smoke their cigars and everything else. And, you know, I’d heard once it was being, you know, vacated a few years ago. It was like, oh, I hope they’re not tearing it down, because it is, you know, it’s really handsome building. And then when I heard they’re converting into dorms, I’m just like, ah, you know, perfect. I mean, you know, because the, you know, floor plates on it aren’t really built for anything. You can’t really get people to move in there and use it as office space. So
Andrew Kaiser [00:29:42] it was. It’s been declared a historical building, so it can’t be torn down. So. Is that right?
Shawn Hoefler [00:29:49] I don’t- I don’t know if they actually- I don’t know if they actually designated that as a historically protected. I do know that at some point, they were pretty much weighing all their options, but they finally ruled in the favor of preserving it and reusing it.
Andrew Kaiser [00:30:09] Are you part of a historical society?
Shawn Hoefler [00:30:11] I am not. That’s- A lot of people have asked. You know, they’re kind of surprised, one to learn that I’m, you know, that I’m 33. You know, instead of- A lot of people who publish books with Arcadia tend to be retirement age. They have a lot of time to devote to these things. And then the fact that I’m technically not a native of Cleveland, and the fact that I’m not a member of the Western Reserve Historical Society, the Cleveland Restoration Society, I think they’re all great, wonderful groups. It’s just my timeframe and schedule just really doesn’t allow for much more than what I can do right now.
Andrew Kaiser [00:30:51] How far is your interest in architecture, about the history of it? I mean, how much do you have an interest in the history of the architecture? I mean, I know you have to. Do you enjoy that part as much as the other?
Shawn Hoefler [00:31:05] It’s the whole, you know, just so many people have said it’s. You know, there’s so many ways that, you know, people remember civilizations, you know, through Literature and through, you know, other forms. And one of the things for me is that, you know, you know, when we all pass on, chances are buildings like, you know, the Terminal Tower will most likely still be there. The Key Tower will still be there if people have enough sense not to demolish it. Buildings like the Arcade and everything else. And that’s going to stay. That’s going to stay. And that’s going to say something about, you know, who we are, how we lived. And it’s. It’s like someone said, it’s like these huge buildings and even the smaller ones are, you know, they’re publicly accessible pieces of artwork that, you know, it’s like public art in its largest form. So for me, it’s, you know, there’s just so many things about it. It’s like, where do I start?
Andrew Kaiser [00:31:57] If you don’t mind, maybe a little facts, little couple of facts, like what’s the oldest building in Cleveland?
Shawn Hoefler [00:32:04] Well, technically, the oldest building, at least on its foundation or at least on its original site would be the Dunham Tavern Museum. I believe that’s near 55th and Euclid. And I believe even the structure that sits there is more- It’s a recreation. Tallest. Tallest is Key Tower.
Andrew Kaiser [00:32:22] How many- Do you know how tall?
Shawn Hoefler [00:32:24] Yeah, it’s 948 feet to the very top of the spire. It’s 888 feet to the top of the steel pyramid.
Andrew Kaiser [00:32:32] How many floors?
Shawn Hoefler [00:32:33] It’s 57 office floors plus six maintenance floors which are inside the pyramid.
Andrew Kaiser [00:32:39] Now, is that one of the biggest architectural undertakings cities have ever done or would something older be actually?
Shawn Hoefler [00:32:45] Well, it depends as far as when you include excavation and everything else. By far, the Terminal Tower Group, that was like something that few other cities had ever seen. That was, I believe, the second largest excavating project after the Panama Canal. And you can only imagine how much work that took. Definitely. But buildings like Key Tower, the BP Building, again, those are super-tall buildings compared to others, and those had to be dug out 200 feet under the street level before they could even put anything above the street. So those are pretty substantial.
Andrew Kaiser [00:33:25] Okay. You said you’re not in architecture, but are you consulted often by firms or by other people besides myself?
Shawn Hoefler [00:33:33] I get people asking questions sometimes. It’s just people who lived in Cleveland and were interested about is there a building still standing at this corner? And things like that? I’ve also had some people, architecture groups have contacted me for using my photos for my website. I’ve also had a few people have asked me. Basically, they’re going to be visiting Cleveland. What areas should they see? What buildings should they take a look at? That’s, you know, one of the tour group. Yeah, I mean, it’s nothing I can ever really, you know, set up as an official tour for them, but I kind of give them a little itinerary of, you know, here’s, you know, when you’re here, check this out. And yeah, pretty much most of the questions I get are, again, it’s more like just personal interest kind of things or people requesting photos.
Andrew Kaiser [00:34:31] I was thinking about urban renewal and the Galleria. I think that was one of the projects they had for- Now, would that be considered along the same lines as those new [inaudible] buildings? Not as grand, but-
Shawn Hoefler [00:34:42] That was- That whole section of town, it’s actually where I work. You know, the buildings are all, you know, ’70s style, sort of the inter- Some of them are the international style, where it’s just really simple lines. You know, they look like pretty much big shoeboxes, their silhouettes. I think as much as the Galleria had some issues as far as keeping tenants and everything since they opened, it replaced this completely wide-open plaza that was pretty much nothing but a place for tumbleweeds to gather when it was built. The tower at Erieview was pretty much isolated by itself from 1964 up until 1987 when they finally put the Galleria in. So that actually made, like, you know, it’s one of the few places in that section of town that, you know, it’s like, oh, it’s kind of welcoming. You know, if you go there at lunchtime, the food court’s always, you know, packed to the gills. And, you know, it made that one part of downtown like, okay. You know, it’s not quite as brutal and oppressive as a lot of the buildings. And, you know, the urban renewal in a lot of cities, you know, from the ’70s, it’s just- I mean, Cleveland State is a product of a lot of that. If you look at some of the buildings, fortunately, they’re correcting some of those mistakes. But it’s these, you know, kind of these big, boxy, squat buildings that, you know, they, you know, they have a sense, you know, they’re impressive in a way, but when it comes to day to day looking at them and everything else, they’re not quite as inspiring as they probably could be.
Andrew Kaiser [00:36:13] One of the buildings I like, which I think is new, is the Louis Stokes Library. Is there anything- When was that?
Shawn Hoefler [00:36:20] That was, I think, completed in 1997 through ’98.
Andrew Kaiser [00:36:24] Is there anything special about that building? I mean, I just think it has the- I don’t even know the terms, but it’s got that circular.
Shawn Hoefler [00:36:30] Yeah, well, there’s- I like the fact that they combined sort of the cylindrical, you know, the tower with the glass, but they still added the four corners with the masonry. That kind of- They match the cornice lines of all the other buildings in the Group Plan. I’m not- The one thing I don’t care for is the fact that they didn’t keep the cylindrical form going all the way around on the one side near East 6th Street. I guess the notion is that it respects and reflects the Federal Reserve bank, but it just looks like a flat wall of masonry. Just doesn’t really work. For me, the best part about it was the restoration and improvement of the Eastman Reading Garden, which sits between the old library and the Stokes Wing, which- That’s probably by far one of the best public spaces not in just Cleveland, but in Ohio. And, you know, it’s fantastic.
Andrew Kaiser [00:37:26] And are they doing? I thought they were doing- Are they doing renovation on the courthouse? The Metzenbaum?
Shawn Hoefler [00:37:32] Yeah, that’s just been wrapped up. That’s one of the most recent renovations, and I haven’t been in it yet since they’ve done the restorations, but it looks like they’ve done a great job. They added a skylight. They enclosed the central open area. That used to be just open space, I guess they added a skylight and enclosed that. So it’ll be interesting to see how they incorporated everything.
Andrew Kaiser [00:37:56] Your building you work in is the Penton?
Shawn Hoefler [00:37:57] Penton Media Building was built as the Bond Court Office Building.
Andrew Kaiser [00:38:01] Bond Court Office Building?
Shawn Hoefler [00:38:02] And it was named Bond Court after a street that used to be on that site.
Andrew Kaiser [00:38:06] Okay. Do you have a favorite part of Cleveland, Downtown Cleveland, or favorite-
Shawn Hoefler [00:38:12] It’s one of those. I can appreciate just about everywhere. I like Superior Avenue just because it’s a nice, unbroken streetscape. I like Euclid Avenue, even with all of its issues, just because of, you know, there’s a certain charm to it that, you know, if they can actually get things going again, which it looks like they’re starting to do on East 4th Street in that area. If they can get that kind of a contiguous, like, vibrancy going from Playhouse Square to Public Square, I think there will be, you know, that’ll, you know, give people a little sense of hope again.
Andrew Kaiser [00:38:53] So what would- What would you say- What would you say again that Cleveland needs for its- Is there something in particular that it needs? Convocation center, maybe?
Shawn Hoefler [00:39:04] I would say, as far as the, like, the big silver-bullet projects, I think we should be focusing on something other than that. I think the best way to approach things- The one area of Cleveland that I like and that I would love to see a lot of change to is the Warehouse District. The buildings that are still there, they’re fantastic. There’s, you know, again, other cities would kill to have these things because a lot of them were demolished back in the day. But then there’s also on, you know, this huge, huge, huge parking lot between St. Clair, Superior, West 3rd and West 6th that, you know,
Andrew Kaiser [00:39:40] Where is the Warehouse District?
Shawn Hoefler [00:39:42] The southern boundary is Superior Avenue. The western boundary is, depending on how you look at it, West 9th Street or the Old River Road and West 10th. And then the northern boundary is the lake, and the eastern boundary would be West 3rd Street.
Andrew Kaiser [00:40:00] Would you suggest anything for the lakefront? What are your opinions of the lakefront? Do you like our-
Shawn Hoefler [00:40:05] I like what the lakefront could be. I like the fact that they’re going to take the Shoreway and make it a little more manageable, make it a little more connected to the city and make the city more connected to it. I’m a little concerned just that like some people have said, the grand plan is for 50 years. Well, in 50 years a lot of us aren’t going to be here or I’ll probably be way too old to really get out and enjoy it. So I’m hoping they can maybe fast-track some of these things that are pretty much no-brainer, good ideas and give a lot of thought to what they’re going to do with the spots that might need a little work.
Andrew Kaiser [00:40:45] Does your interest go to stadiums?
Shawn Hoefler [00:40:49] It’s one of those things. I can appreciate them for what they are. I’m not much of a sports fan. I know it’s kind of a shocker in Cleveland, but I mean, I don’t have anything, I think, given the circumstances, like Browns Stadium. I wish they could have put it somewhere else, but apparently there was a lot of arrangements with land acquisition and everything else that everything had to be done in such a quick timeframe. There was either lose the team altogether or put the stadium right back where it was, which unfortunately is where it is, and it’s now-
Andrew Kaiser [00:41:21] What would you want there?
Shawn Hoefler [00:41:23] I would actually would like to see maybe something that would be a little more functional, even a domed stadium, just to get usage out of it. Or I’d like to see more use out of it than, what, eight football games a year. That’s a huge investment. It’s a huge investment and such little return on it for actual use of it. Now, Jacobs Field, on the other hand, I think is probably- It’s brilliant where they put it. It’s a landmark. That’s one of the first things people see of downtown Cleveland once they get off the highway. The lights, the fact that they incorporated parking, close in. They gave people that option. But then they also said, well, if you want to park, you can go somewhere else and check out the city while you’re there. It’s not had the spinoff effect that they had hoped, but there’s definitely. I mean, you can’t deny the fact that, you know, buildings like the Osborne Building, Huron Square, a handful of others in that area, they’ve been restored and renovated because of sort of the, you know, the infusion of, you know, that huge amount of people that come to the games and then eventually just realize, oh, this is what’s here.
Andrew Kaiser [00:42:39] The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. That was done by I. M. Pei. Do you know him?
Shawn Hoefler [00:42:44] Not personally, but no, I’m familiar with his work.
Andrew Kaiser [00:42:47] Do you like that one in particular?
Shawn Hoefler [00:42:50] Yeah, that’s one of those- A lot of people don’t know. But originally it was planned to be built in the area that’s south of Tower City Center. Basically, you would walk out of the concourse of the shopping area in Tower City, a little closer, too, like literally right behind on Huron Road and sloping all the way down to the river. But for a variety of reasons, it wasn’t built there. And it was built on the lakefront, which right now it’s a little bit removed from downtown. Trying to walk to there from downtown during the winter is pretty much not going to happen. So that’s where the whole lakefront plan ties in, where I’d like to see them maybe try and get some pedestrian bridges over, you know, the Shoreway and the railroad tracks so people can actually walk there. Have a little more direct route than have to go all the way over to East 9th Street or all the way to the Cleveland Browns pedestrian bridge.
Andrew Kaiser [00:43:52] Do you have a favorite city architecturally?
Shawn Hoefler [00:43:55] Again, I like them all. I can’t say that I dislike too many. It’s one of those things. It’s one of the first things I appreciate about any city that I visit.
Andrew Kaiser [00:44:07] Okay, okay. Okay.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:44:16] I have a couple of questions, actually.
Shawn Hoefler [00:44:18] Okay.
Andrew Kaiser [00:44:19] Relief.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:44:21] It’s a little bit- It’s outside the downtown area, but what are your feelings about the Frank Gehry building?
Shawn Hoefler [00:44:27] The Frank Gehry building. Ah, yes. I actually like it. I like the fact that it’s so- Compared to the buildings around it, and again, I think Cleveland has such a great inventory of historic buildings that, you know, a building or two, I would not want to see every building in Cleveland that comes along to be built in that style. But I really like the fact that it just, it just shakes things up once in a while. It’s kind of a breath of fresh air. I know there’s, as far as, I guess it’s not the most friendly building in the wintertime. You know, there’s some issues with the climate and ice and snow falling off of it, but it’s one of those. I think after a while people will, you know, maybe they’ll find a way to work around that or people will just appreciate it for what it is.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:45:15] Do you on your website only look at buildings that are still in existence, or do you also look at buildings that have since been razed?
Shawn Hoefler [00:45:24] When it’s pertinent, I always focus on existing buildings because right now there’s a few good sites about buildings that have been demolished. Cleveland State actually has one that’s dedicated to it. I’d like to see them expand it. I’m sure it’s a matter of just time and resources. There’s another. Well, the Cleveland Memory Project has a lot of information and photos of buildings that have been demolished as well. So if it is pertinent to a building on my site, then I’ll mention it and if I have a photo available, you know, I’ll try and correlate that somehow.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:45:59] Do you do photographic comparisons of the changes that are happening?
Shawn Hoefler [00:46:03] I’ve done that before. There’s a building right next to the May Company building on Public Square. I believe it used to be, I want to say it was the Baker Building originally. I could be wrong on that. But it’s just a small little building that had this brick front that was pretty much gone and you know, non-existent. And that was maybe about five years ago. And then in the past couple of years they’ve restored it completely from, you know, slightly above the first floor level all the way to the top. And it just looks incredible. And I show people, you know, like, this is what this part of Euclid Avenue used to look like. This is what it looks like now. And it’s like, oh, I guess things are improving, you know, here and there.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:46:44] Can you just say again where that is?
Shawn Hoefler [00:46:48] It’s actually on Euclid, right near Public Square. It’s just east of the May Company building on the south side of Euclid.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:46:57] Do you live in an architecturally interesting or amazing building?
Shawn Hoefler [00:47:02] Amazing, maybe not, but it’s interesting. I live in one of the Tudor buildings on Lake Avenue between West 104th and West 117th. Yeah, well, I don’t know. I call myself a Clevelander. That’s one of the things. Again, not being a native of Cleveland, I, you know, I understand people have their roots and everything else, but I don’t get the whole east side, west side. If there’s something I like on the east side, I go to the east side. I have my passport. Yeah.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:47:37] Have you given any thought to perhaps developing a little walking tour that you can like, post up on your website for people to take?
Shawn Hoefler [00:47:44] That’s one of the things I’ve thought about. It’s just a matter of- I always have to try to remember when I do give walking tours that not everyone- I’m one of these people, I could walk for hours and hours and hours and realize, oh, I forgot to eat lunch. So I have to plan that out and then I have to try to be able to coordinate it. And there’s some technological issues that I’m trying to learn how to format things that would be user-friendly.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:48:13] And going back to what you were talking about earlier with Cleveland’s kind of architectural restraint, is there something that you attribute that to?
Shawn Hoefler [00:48:21] Well, I think the fact that again, Cleveland’s peak was pretty much, largely speaking, it was a huge city of 900,000 people, pretty much within the city limits back in the ’30s. And I think that back then it was kind of a sobering moment for everyone. And then that never really went away. And then the manufacturing base might be fading away now, but it really established this culture that there’s certain things you can do and there’s certain things that are a little too much and inappropriate.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:49:01] And. Are you familiar with the Believe in Cleveland campaign?
Shawn Hoefler [00:49:06] I’ve heard of it.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:49:09] I was just interested to know because you talked about people’s opinions about Cleveland. And so I was just wondering.
Shawn Hoefler [00:49:19] Yeah, I haven’t really been able to see their website or anything if they’ve developed any real campaigns about anything. So I want to say it sounds good. I would be concerned that it, like some other efforts that have been made come off. They come off a little contrived. You know, they try to make Cleveland out to be something that it’s not. And I think they would be probably wise to take more of a, like a down to earth approach rather than, you know, some altruistic like, oh, it’s going to be the glory days again, because it probably won’t.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:49:58] I think that’s- Is there anything that you want to tell us that we’ve missed?
Shawn Hoefler [00:50:03] I’m pretty good. Do I have to say thanks to my mom? Yeah. Do I do shoutouts or not?
Andrew Kaiser [00:50:13] Coming out with a new book or anything you want to plug?
Shawn Hoefler [00:50:15] Oh, no, no, no, no. If I do, it’s just gonna be an update. Yeah.
Andrew Kaiser [00:50:18] Just to close, maybe, is there advice you’d offer to someone with a interest in architecture? Maybe a minor interest?
Shawn Hoefler [00:50:26] Yeah, I would definitely say don’t. You know, just because you don’t have a specific ability in a field, don’t necessarily give it up or think that you can’t be somehow involved.
Andrew Kaiser [00:50:39] Okay. I think that’s it. Okay.
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