John Tate Interview, 2009

Abstract

John Tate was born in 1947 in Youngstown and moved to Cleveland in 1970. In this 2009 interview, Tate discusses his childhood and young adulthood, focusing in particular on music and race relations. Tate describes the rock and roll and R & B music he listened to as a youngster and its significance to his life. The issue of race relations enters in to the discussion of his development to adulthood, and he describes some instances of racism he experienced while working different jobs early on in his professional career. He also talks more broadly about the issue of racism in the United States and considers the effects that rock and roll music can have on racial opinions.

Interviewee

Tate, John (interviewee)

Interviewer

Aritonovich, Dana (interviewer)

Project

Rock and Roll

Date

11-4-2009

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

46 minutes

Recommended Citation

"John Tate Interview, 2009" (2009). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 200007.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/21

Related Resources

Rock and Roll @ Cleveland Voices

Transcript

Dana Aritonovich [00:00:03] Okay, why don't we start with you just stating your name, where you live and what you do now?

John Tate [00:00:08] Okay. My name is John Tate. I live in South Euclid, Ohio. Right now I'm fiscal director of a nonprofit agency here in Midtown Cleveland.

Dana Aritonovich [00:00:23] And what year were you born and where were you born?

John Tate [00:00:26] I was born in 1947 in Youngstown, Ohio.

Dana Aritonovich [00:00:33] And you talk a little bit about your neighborhood when you were growing up.

John Tate [00:00:38] Okay. My neighborhood was overwhelmingly African American. Of course, back then we were known as colored or Negro. I think there was- There were two white people. They weren't families. Two older white ladies. One lived across the street from my grandmother and one who lived up the street from my grandmother and my mother and my two sisters and I.

Dana Aritonovich [00:01:15] What about the schools you went to? What were the schools like?

John Tate [00:01:19] Well, they pretty much reflected the neighborhood. I think there were probably six white children in my elementary school. Then I moved to junior high school, and it was a culture shock. It was an integrated school, probably 60% white and 40% Black, because I guess I had a superior test score. Most of my classmates were white, and it took me one grading period to adjust. So an A and B student became a D and F student, for one. I was just fascinated by people I only saw on TV or downtown.

Dana Aritonovich [00:02:21] Interesting. I like the way you think.

John Tate [00:02:24] But one of my best friends was white, and he subsequently became a professor of math at Kent State University. That was odd.

Dana Aritonovich [00:02:39] And so he was one of your closest friends. So you guys went to each other's homes and stuff?

John Tate [00:02:44] Oh, yeah. He lived right behind me. He and his brother, you know, with his family, having you over there, it was a lot different from Cleveland. I think things were so polarized here based on race. East, at least the near east side was African American back then. And the near west side and the far west side was predominantly or overwhelmingly white. But in Youngstown, it was a little different.

Dana Aritonovich [00:03:18] Tell me a little about your family, about your parents. What did your father do? What did your mother do?

John Tate [00:03:25] My dad, I think on my birth certificate it says he's a smokehouse owner or something like that. In essence, he was a gambling kingpin with a house that served gamblers or downtown Youngstown. Well, actually, it didn't happen that way. My father passed when I was 8, and then my mom passed when I was 10. My mom and her sister, her only sibling, had associate's degrees back in the ’30s, but they suffered the fate of being African American. So I think my mother's last job was a gift wrapper for a Jewelry store in Youngstown. And her sister, who was very bright with a photographic memory, was a cashier for employees at one of the department stores in Youngstown. Different day?

Dana Aritonovich [00:04:42] Very different, yeah. What did you have to ask me one day?

John Tate [00:04:48] Well, you said how I grew up, and actually my grandmother and my aunt, my mother's sister, they actually raised me. My grandmother was a very Christian woman. We followed the Presbyterian faith. So I was raised in a very Christian home. So I learned respect for everyone and I guess especially women. It was all women but me.

Dana Aritonovich [00:05:22] Did you have any siblings or? No?

John Tate [00:05:23] Yeah, two sisters, one older, one younger.

Dana Aritonovich [00:05:28] And did you have a large extended family that you got together with? Any cousins or aunts?

John Tate [00:05:34] Yeah, I had a few. It wasn't a huge extended family, but my aunt, the one who I lived with, was married to a gentleman who had seven brothers and sisters. So all of his nieces and nephews called me cousin. So there wasn't. I guess there weren't a lot. Maybe 2, 3, 5, 6. Maybe 8. Maybe 8. So 8 there. And my dad had one brother and he had two kids, and they were younger than I, so they weren't as close as the. The other eight dimension.

Dana Aritonovich [00:06:19] First, what kind of things did you and your friends or your cousins, what did you guys do for fun?

John Tate [00:06:25] Well, I was. I don't want to sound boastful, but I was quite the athlete. So I played football, I played baseball, I ran track, and later on I played a little basketball.

Dana Aritonovich [00:06:44] And what kind of music do you remember from when you were a child, since you grew up in the church? Was it a lot of?

John Tate [00:06:52] No, this is Presbyterian. This isn't Baptist.

Dana Aritonovich [00:06:54] That's true.

John Tate [00:06:55] Yeah. It was very, as they say, white bread, as you would expect any Presbyterian church to be. But with the music. Oh, probably music of the late '50s and the '60s, it was a combination of, I guess, blues and rock and roll. I guess probably the first artist I really remember was an artist called Brook Benton. He was, I guess, a balladeer. And after that, of course, it was Elvis, Johnny Mathis, the Temptations, the Impressions. Just so many, many, many groups.

Dana Aritonovich [00:07:54] Do you remember what the first record you bought was?

John Tate [00:07:58] Probably Johnny Mathis, “Chances Are”. Have you ever heard that? Oh, yeah.

Dana Aritonovich [00:08:03] I used to grow up. My mom had all these old records. That's why I like this music.

John Tate [00:08:06] I grew up hearing that stuff, too.

Dana Aritonovich [00:08:08] So Johnny Mathis was big one.

John Tate [00:08:09] Yes. Great. Probably a lot of artists you've never heard of, though, because there are quite a few R&B guys that didn't make It.

Dana Aritonovich [00:08:22] And where did you and your friends or your cousins go to either listen to music or buy the music?

John Tate [00:08:32] Actually, we listened to it probably at home. But there used to be, like, a studio downtown on Federal Street in Youngstown. That was the main street. And I think these types of shops existed probably everywhere you can go in, and I think they let you listen to the music. This was a long time ago now, so I'm not quite certain how it played out, but they would have turntables, and you would put the 33 in. I think they were 33s back then. You know what that looks like? Okay. You would put those on a turntable, and you'd go in a booth and you'd listen to it. And I think you can listen to it for free for a while. And, you know, that's where I first heard the rock and roll. That and I guess Ed Sullivan.

Dana Aritonovich [00:09:29] And tell me what you remember about Motown, like, the impact that Motown had on you and the other people, the other kids that you grew up with?

John Tate [00:09:39] You know, Motown was big, but there were. I guess there were other groups. There was a singer called Etta James, and I guess you heard her sing "At Last." Okay. And so she wasn't with Motown. That was one of my favorite songs. I had my first real girlfriend. That was, I think, our song. That. And "Yes, I’m Ready" by- Oh, my goodness. You go back and become kind of emotional and sentimental and, wow, they were young and pretty like you.

Dana Aritonovich [00:10:24] What was the first concert that you went to, if you remember?

John Tate [00:10:30] Yeah, it actually wasn't- The first nightclub I attended was actually here in Cleveland. I was a student at Kent State at the time, and there were a few girls who were from Cleveland, and they offered my buddies and I a chance to come here and stay with a couple of them. They had huge- No, no, it wasn't like that. No. No. One young lady lived off Wade Park. You know where that is. So it was a big mansion. And we stayed maybe on the third or fourth floor or something. And she stayed wherever she normally stays. And we came down to a place called Leo's Casino. And it's so ironic because I work at 55th and Euclid, and right on the other side like diagonally from where that building is, is where Leo's was. And Leo's, of course, catered to people of all races. And of course, back then it was basically Negro and white. And I think we were there. Well, it had to be a weekend, so Friday or Saturday. And Leo's maybe housed maybe 150 people, just tables. And there was one raised inn that had two or three tables on it. I think it was all the way in the back. And there was a bar, of course, at 18, we couldn't order any drinks. They were 19, I was 18. And I think The Temptations were there that night. And you talk about intimate. They were as close to me almost as you are, you know. So it was. It was that type of setting. And I said before it was, you know, integrated club. It was predominantly African American. But, you know, it was. There were quite a few white patrons.

Dana Aritonovich [00:12:34] And this was when you were a student at Kent?

John Tate [00:12:36] When I was student at Kent, I was 19. Had to be either '65 or '66. Where were you then?

Dana Aritonovich [00:12:44] I was just a twinkle in my father's eye at that time.

John Tate [00:12:46] You probably weren't even that.

Dana Aritonovich [00:12:48] I feel like I was there because I grew up hearing my mom and my uncle talked about all these stories.

John Tate [00:12:52] Oh, okay.

Dana Aritonovich [00:12:53] Because like I said, that's where I got my love of music was from listening to their old records when I was little because I didn't know those records were old. When I got my record player when I was 5, you know, in late '70s, and I'm like, oh, it's just good music. And I didn't know, you know, Temptations weren't on the radio or Elvis or Chuck. I didn't know. I just thought it was really cool music. So I kind of feel like I was at these places because that's what I grew up listening to also.

John Tate [00:13:14] Well, when you started listening to them, they were. Things had changed then. I told you this was the '60s, and there was no way after, I guess maybe the early '70s, that a nightclub could afford to have a group like The Temptations. They couldn't. Things had broadened. I guess they had crossed over and then they were hit everywhere.

Dana Aritonovich [00:13:43] And your grandmother and your aunt and the other people in your family, what did they think about this music that you liked? Did they approve of it?

John Tate [00:13:51] Well, my grandmother, she was a very religious person. So, you know, that's not something she listened to. She didn't think it was derogatory or hurtful in any way. So it was no problem. My aunt, on the other hand, she was bright and she was a finger popper, as we say. So she enjoyed it and she enjoyed blues. So the house always had music going and everybody was dancing. Even though I couldn't dance that well, I couldn't dance. I didn't learn to dance until I went to college and guys taught me how to dance.

Dana Aritonovich [00:14:32] Really?

John Tate [00:14:32] I mean, we didn't dance hand in hand. They just showed me what I had to do to learn how to dance. And then it was ironic.

Dana Aritonovich [00:14:42] And what was the first song that you remember hearing that had kind of like a social message or something political that you caught on as being about something larger than just girls and cars and stuff?

John Tate [00:14:54] Yeah, well, it was probably a folk song. I don't know if it was by Joan Baez. And so I don't remember a lot of that. The one that stands out, and it's a tragic one, and I don't know who the artist is, but it was about the assassination of John Kennedy. The young man stood with his head held high under the Texas sky no one thought that a man so blessed would perish by the gun, Lord would perish by the gun.

Dana Aritonovich [00:15:33] And what did you think when you heard that?

John Tate [00:15:35] Oh, saddened. You had to. I mean. And when they announced he'd been assassinated, I was in a classroom, I think I was 15. And, well, the first day announced he'd been shot. And this one girl just burst out laughing. Everybody looked at her, and she was crazy. I don't even remember the explanation she gave. Then they came back about 15 minutes later and said he was dead. And then she was crying uncontrollably and she ran out of the room. But, you know, everybody was, you know. You know, he was the darling, certainly, of young America. They called his time there his thousand days. Camelot. So. Yeah, but I like folk music, even today.

Dana Aritonovich [00:16:34] And what radio stations did you listen to? Did you pick up the Cleveland Channel?

John Tate [00:16:38] Oh, no, no, no. WHOT? No, Is that it?

Dana Aritonovich [00:16:45] WHOT?

John Tate [00:16:46] No, no, no. It was the hot spot on your dial. That was how it was billed. So I'm thinking it was WHOT. WHOT? With Boots Bell. Your Buddy Bootsy. Yeah. Mister.

Dana Aritonovich [00:17:07] And what kind of music was on that station?

John Tate [00:17:10] All types. pop, rock and roll. Well, not all types, just pop and rock and roll. It was a kids’ station.

Dana Aritonovich [00:17:25] And when did you move to Cleveland?

John Tate [00:17:27] I moved here in 1970.

Dana Aritonovich [00:17:30] And what made you move to Cleveland?

John Tate [00:17:33] Well, I was drafted into the service in 1968. I had a brother who was attending Cleveland State at the time, and he had asked me to come up here on a couple of occasions for social functions. And I met a few people, a couple girls I liked. And when I was scheduled to be inducted, and I was inducted here in Cleveland, I drove up. Well, the day before I drove up, my brother called me and says, you know, guess who's been Asking about you. And it was some young lady who I thought was attractive and who was dating some other guy when I was coming around. And he said, well, she's been asking about you. I said, hey. I said, I've got a date. I said, maybe you contact her and we can double date my last night. So I came up. We double dated. When I went away to boot camp, I was receiving a lot of letters. I was a popular fellow. So her letters was one of the letters I was receiving. Well, you know, being young and somewhat fickle. By the time my time in boot camp at Fort Knox, Kentucky was over, I was down to two or three letters, as opposed to 10 or 12 every day. And hers was one of the ones. So to make a long story short, and I guess I should, she was persistent. So before I went to Vietnam, maybe a week before I did, we were married. Yeah. So see, when I was in Vietnam and I was fortunate enough to be able to come back whole, you know, this is where she lived. She lived in Shaker Heights. And I thought she was well off. She was pretty and well off, you know, I said, hey, it's jackpot.

Dana Aritonovich [00:19:51] Get it while you can.

John Tate [00:19:56] And me being a poor boy from Youngstown, it turned out she wasn't so well-to-do after all. But she's still attractive and she was very nice. And we stayed married for about 16 years, had three children. But I came back in 1970, and my first job was as a teller at Ohio Savings. And then I began my education at community college. Began it again at community college. I think I probably left that part out about attending Kent. Well, I didn't. I told you I was from Kent. Yeah, okay. And I. I started anew at community college, did about 40 some hours there, transferred over here and graduated in 1975.

Dana Aritonovich [00:21:02] And what do you remember about Cleveland when you first got here? What was the impression that you had as far as comparing it to Youngstown especially?

John Tate [00:21:09] Well, the thing that really surprised me this was, of course, after I became a little more acclimated to things, and after, I guess I was here maybe two years, because those two years were pretty much. Pretty much similar to the way I remembered Youngstown. I was in school most of the time, so I didn't do any socializing. My son John was born in 71, so it was school, work, and my family. It wasn't until I had. I was in my senior year, I was. I went to a. What do you call it, employment service, because I was looking to possibly get started. I'd been Working in a post office. And I wanted to start in a. On a career path that was more professional. So I got a job with Republic Steel as a credit analyst. My background is in business, so that fit right in. And it was then that the cold, hard facts of social life and racial polarism hit me square in the face. You know, I'm not a prejudiced guy, so I wasn't raised that way. And I didn't treat anybody differently. And as far as I know, they never treated me any differently. I was always under the assumption that people treated you like you treated them. I was somewhat naive to that. And after I started working for Republic Steel, I really saw that east was east and west was west. And they were just astounded, these people who I worked for at Republic Steel, at least the higher ups, that I could work in their office and pretty much integrate myself into the corporate, what do you call it, culture. And my boss, on occasion would. You know, it's so odd being. Because I think I was 26 when I started, and there was another kid who was 23. It started about a month before I did. He was from Rocky River, and his dad was a construction company owner. And we became friends. We became friends and very good friends. And he told me, he says, you know, John, he says, you're the first African American. I think he said Black back then. I mean, he'd gone through these different phases. He said, you're the first Black guy I know who I thought was intelligent. I looked at him and said, you got to be. Are you that sheltered? But I hope I didn't lose my train of thought, because we worked together for three years. Then he went off to law school. He went off to law school, and I went into a training, accounting training for Republic Steel and Massillon. And I guess, you know, we were unlikely friends to begin with, so we. We didn't see each other. And this was what, maybe 35 years? And I saw him for the first time. We had lunch together last week, and it was emotional for both of us,

Dana Aritonovich [00:25:07] But in a good way. Was it all?

John Tate [00:25:12] Probably a sad way, you know, because I'm looking at him, and. We were so young, and he had become a Christian. I don't know where I got with that, but I was telling you about the polarism that existed. And so that was. It amazed my workers and my bosses that I was able to mingle so well. And it just totally took them aback that a kid from Rocky River and a kid from South Euclid. It was Cleveland Heights at the time could be friends, that type of friends.

Dana Aritonovich [00:26:08] And what kind of? I mean, that was your work experience. What about in Cleveland in general? Did you experience racism? Just out on the street going certain places.

John Tate [00:26:21] I think because of the way I carry myself, you know, once people talk to me, they realize I'm not stupid. So they tend to conduct themselves in a way that would be appropriate, you know, regardless of what color I was. And I did have two instances of racism. The first is I didn't tell you. When I first came back from Vietnam, I sought to get employment in the business world with a loan company. And I was told by a guy who interviewed me in downtown Cleveland that they had. No, no, he wasn't in downtown. He was in Mayfield, Mayfield Heights. And he told me they had two openings. He said, there are immediate openings. One was downtown and the other was in Parma. And he said, the one opening in downtown Cleveland won't be open for another two weeks. He said, but the one in Parma is open now. And he says, you'd be perfect. He said, I really think you'd be a great success. So I drive over to Parma, and I knew I was going to have trouble because I crossed the bridge and they told me to go up West 25th. Now, I'm not real familiar with Cleveland, but I heard some stories about Parma. And I said, well, you know, you can't always judge what you hear is as being truthful or just rumors. So I'm driving, and, you know, the population changed from a mixture of African American and white to all white. And I said, oh, boy. I said, oh, boy. But I said, you know, hey, I've been in this situation before. I was the first Black employee at a point place called Packard Electric in their engineering department in Warren. And, you know, was no big deal. So I get there, and a guy came up to me. He's really nice. He says, how can I help you, sir? I said, I'm John Tate, and I'm here to see so and so. And he looked at me, and he looked around at this guy. There was a long bar, a long counter—pardon— that stretched from the front to the back, back. And this other guy was way in the back. And he said, whatever your name is. He says, John Tate's here. And this guy's mouth was wide open. I said, oh, boy. So I said, I know what's coming. So he comes up. He walks up there. I could tell he was nervous. He was turning red. And I said, I'm John Tate, you know. He said, the position we had we just filled it and we didn't. I said, okay. I says, I wouldn't want to work out here anyway. Not under you. So that was my first and my second, believe it or not, happened on the east side. It happened in Cleveland Heights because Cleveland Heights was a lot different than I lived in University Heights. And I would have to drive by Cleveland Heights High every day to go to school. I guess some of these things are out of place. But you asked me about race. Have I ever experienced it? Well, I used to go early, usually. I had 8 o’clock class, so it'd usually be out of the heights by about 7:30. Well, this day I was running a little late, so it was probably closer to 8, 8, 8:30. I was. I was going to miss my first class, but I went anyway. So I crossed Lee Road and I see this, you know, this. Not the siren, but the lights of a police car behind me. And I'm thinking, what the. What the hell did I do? I said, I know I was going slow because I knew I wasn't going to make it to class so there's no reason to rush. And I said, I said, and I know the light was green. And I thought, okay, okay. And so he comes to my window and he says, sir, can I see you? I said, I said, what was I doing, officer? And he said something. And I said, sir, I said, I don't think I was doing anything wrong. And I said, I know why you stopped me. And I says, and if you give me a ticket, I'm going to talk to the mayor of Cleveland Heights. Because I know him. I didn't. But I figured this guy didn't know it, you know, he didn't know me. So anybody didn't know I was in the area, lived in the area. So he says, okay, just. Just be careful, sir. You know. You know, what was that? What was that? So that was. So it exists. But you know, like I said before, you know, was raised by a grandmother who was half white, even though that was to her detriment. But I've always was taught to treat people like you want to be treated and how they treat you. So I haven't been jaded by anything that's ever happened to me. People are people. It's ironic, too. I say that because a graduate of Cleveland State, a 1969 graduate, a little All American, Leo Johnson, who played soccer here, passed away Friday. I'm supposed to stop by the wake this evening. And he married a white young lady who was a cheerleader here at the time he played basketball, too, they were married for 42 years. And he used to tell me, because, you know, at the time, you know, there were very few African Americans in business downtown. You can't even envision what downtown used to look like. And certainly women had no positions of power. So it was a different world. It was a different world. And I remember he says, you know, John, he says, because we were talking about race and. And how it would affect both of us. And he says, you know, if somebody treats me a little differently than I think they should, I'm thinking, I think right away he said, maybe the person's having a bad day. I said, you never know what's going through a person's mind, what type of trials and tribulations they might have during their life. And he says, maybe my breath is bad or something. He said, it doesn't have to be them. He says, so I tend to get people benefit of the doubt until they're blatant. And he says that. So. But all in all, I think he's had relatively good experiences. He was sent over to Liberia because we both worked for Republic Steel at the time. He was in accounting. He was a CPA. They sent him over to Liberia. They had coal mines, and he sent him over to be the controller of that. And he told me he lived in the life of a king. You live the life of a king. And I think about that.

Dana Aritonovich [00:33:31] And what do you think as far as race relations go in Cleveland, Northeast Ohio? Because what I'm really focusing on is how music played a role in that. And, you know, and popular music is Black-inspired music. It all comes from whether people realize, especially young people, don't really think of that. Everything that's on the radio, no matter what it sounds like, all came from Black music. What? Most of it, yeah. What impact do you think that has had, you know, on your experience? You know, even when, before you came to Cleveland, what? As far as the way people see each other, what do you think the impact was since the music was popular with all young people?

John Tate [00:34:11] I think when people were younger, you're talking about the '60s and '70s, when I grew up, I think it was a lot easier for people to see the commonality of us all, especially white people. And of course, if you went to college with some people, then a lot of the myths that their parents had been spreading became very evident. Color of a person's skin has nothing to do with their intellect or potential intellect. So, yeah, a lot of people saw America and its institutions as a Lot as false. As false. So you get a lot of confusion. A lot of drugs. Oh, boy. A lot of commonality. A lot of commonality as opposed to people dwelling on differences. So I think for a time, '60s and '70s, I think the community was. And I told you before, Cleveland was polarized even back then. So I think you found your liberals. These are people who are more, in my mind, able to see the similarities in people and see some of the falsehoods in some of the. Some of the institutions, some of the ideals that were prevalent in, I have to say it, white America. You know, I think those people usually were East Siders or maybe South Siders too, but. And the west side pretty much remained the same. If they had different view, usually they migrated. You found that especially with younger people, that's when Cleveland Heights, I guess, probably Cleveland Heights around the Coventry area, you found a lot of liberal thinkers. So from that standpoint, in just Cleveland itself, it became liberal, at least that section of Cleveland in particular.

Dana Aritonovich [00:36:32] So you think a lot of it had to do with the younger generation?

John Tate [00:36:35] Oh, of course. Oh, of course. Yeah, of course. And then, too, I guess I would say the educators, because there's a commonality in a fraternity, if you would, among teachers. So. And there were a lot of. Always have been a lot of African American teachers, and they were just given opportunities to be administrators after a while. And so I think friendships formed. But by and large, you tend to stick with your race. You tend. Because you're more comfortable. I. I'm odd that way. I'm odd. Not that my best friends are African American and usually my lady friends are white. So I'm different. I'm different.

Dana Aritonovich [00:37:32] There's nothing wrong with being different.

John Tate [00:37:34] Well, I mean, it is what it is. Frank Jackson says that all the time, but I can appreciate it. Things are how they are, right, wrong, and indifferent.

Dana Aritonovich [00:37:45] What do you think it is about that music of that era that we're still listening to it 40, 50, 60 years later?

John Tate [00:37:52] Well, I think the music probably touched on feelings we all had as young teenagers and then young adults growing up. I mean, we've all experienced love, we all experience hurt. And then we all like to dance. Well, most of us do anyway, you know, so you combine those things and it was, you know, it was innocent, decent, fun. The only thing I think most of America didn't like about that was the fact that. That men and women moved their hips in a sexual suggestive manner. I never thought of it that way. It was just rhythm. But most of the older Americans, certainly the white population felt that was the case, but as young kids, they. All we wanted to do was get down and get funky. Yeah.

Dana Aritonovich [00:39:05] And what do you think? Like, young people these days who don't understand the roots of the music they're listening to, what do you- What do you wish they understood about the music that you grew up with? What kind of lessons do you think they could get out of it? Either topics they talked about or just the feeling?

John Tate [00:39:22] Well, you know, I don't think you can make somebody appreciate something that they don't. Just like you told me that the only reason you appreciate. Well, not the only reason, but one of the main reasons you appreciate music of the '60s and '70s era is because your parents did and they played it a lot. And it's, you know, a lot of it's beautiful, a lot of it's rhythmic. It tells a message and it's wholesome for the most part, you know, and it deals with all types of human emotions. These kids who haven't experienced that, I mean, how can you. They're growing up listening to hip-hop and all type of derogatory statements that they've become sensitized to or unsensitized to. So they can't. A lot of them can appreciate. Would be interesting to see what effect it might have on them if they listen to it for an extended period of time. But, you know, to be honest with you, I like the beat of some of the hip-hop sound, but the. Oh, gee, what do you call that? Not the melody, the.

Dana Aritonovich [00:40:46] The harmony?

John Tate [00:40:47] No, not the harmony. The lyrics. The lyrics are something that I don't like at all. It's a different society. They allow so much now that they didn't back then. You know, I think in that respect, liberalism has gone too far, you know, so there's no. There's no law against indecency, and there should be.

Dana Aritonovich [00:41:19] Do you think we can have? Yeah, you said the society's changed. Culture has changed, so we. The art is obviously reflective of that and vice versa.

John Tate [00:41:28] Exactly.

Dana Aritonovich [00:41:30] Do you think we could have an artist, say, you know, like somebody like Sly and the Family Stone or like James Brown, somebody who's very, you know, Sly and the Family Stone? They were an integrated band, women in the band. They had some very controversial songs, but they also had some songs that everybody loved on the radio. There's not a lot of artists like that right now. Do you think we could ever have somebody that? Or like even Marvin Gaye? You know, part of why I'm stopping my paper in 1971 is because "What’s Going On" came out then Office that, you know, and "What’s Going On" was one of the first kind of theme albums. Talked about the war, talked about racial problems. It talked about the environment. And there are some artists doing that. Just they're not getting the same kind of airplay.

John Tate [00:42:13] It's a different world. It's just a different world. And one of the sad things about it has become such a more violent America. So you're afraid of people in a lot of instances. And back then, it was just about love, you know, and understanding. You know, you didn't have to be bad because you were black, or you didn't have to be bad because you were white, you know, but there's no value system here now. You know, music is nice. Is it going to change the way society views each other? I don't think so. I don't think so. I think the way things would change would have to be through legislation, harsh legislation. You want to play a little music while you're teaching people how to be civil, that's fine. Maybe that'll catch on. Maybe they'll. They'll see the commonality of that. But having a musician be able to transcend race, transcend social unrest, if you would, I don't see it. But, you know, what do they say? Hope springs eternal. Okay, but even back in, you know, like in 1954, Brown v. Board of Education didn't change anybody's minds. You know, it's still. The south was not integrated fully. I mean, it's still not right. I mean, even by the end of the north, you know, 1954, it went into effect with, you know, with all deliberate speed, which doesn't mean anything. And by 1960, a very, very, very small percentage were still integrated. That was because of people's attitudes. So that law didn't seem to do anything. And that's kind of when the civil rights movement, you know, the official movement, kind of started becoming a little bit more confrontational. Younger people started getting more involved, you know, students and stuff like that. That's part of what I'm talking about, too, that you can pass laws. That doesn't necessarily change people's minds. I mean, it might eventually, because they're kind of forced, like with boxing and things like that.

Dana Aritonovich [00:44:32] So you don't think busing didn't change minds. It just made people move. That's what it did. If you're forced to be with somebody, you're either going to just deal with it or you're going to be totally. You're going to be even more angry about it.

John Tate [00:44:45] Well, I think it happens. It happens both ways even now. I'm sure this is a phenomena in the history of the United States. You have a Black president, African American, that's probably more descriptive of who he is. And you have a record, overwhelmingly record number of death threats. So that tells you that America hasn't changed all that much, at least in. Well, I was going to say the younger generation, but there's a lot of neo-Nazis in this country and, you know, they don't have good things to say or to think about the existence of Black people, especially over here. But as I told a friend of mine, he was white friend, that this was before the election, I says, you know, change is going to come. I said, change is going to come this election. And even though I had never heard of Barack Obama maybe six or seven months before I made that statement, I'm saying, you know, this has finally come to pass. You know what a lot of people were talking about where these are Martin Luther King’s words. People, younger people, especially when I say younger, younger than me. People who are 40, say 45 and younger, were starting to view people by the content of their character. And Barack certainly had a lot of character, you know, charismatic. But he was American. I mean, by all stretches of the imagination, all definitions, he was an American. And those people saw him just that way. And I think they carried him to victory. So that's a good sign for America, I think. I think. And there's always going to be people who hate people. You can't control it. No, no. Just deal with what you can. Your little neck of the woods. Absolutely.

Dana Aritonovich [00:47:09] Okay, well, we are all done. Unless something else that you wanted to add?

John Tate [00:47:13] No.

Dana Aritonovich [00:47:15] All right. Well, thank you so much. Appreciate your time.

John Tate [00:47:17] You're welcome. And good luck. Thank you.

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