Abstract
Billie Smith of Shaker Lakes Nature Center describes her involvement with the Center, providing details on the history of the Center, recreation and public events, staff development, and educational programming. Smith also discusses the "Red Raider" campground (near Chagrin Falls, Ohio), which was started by her husband Ralston Fox Smith in 1933 as part of a teaching program at Shaker Heights' Malvern School. Actor Paul Newman, a Shaker Heights native, is also mentioned for having attended the camp and later becoming a supporter of the Nature Center at Shaker Lakes.
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Interviewee
Smith, Billie (interviewee)
Interviewer
Smith, Nancy King (interviewer)
Project
Shaker Lakes Nature Center
Date
2008
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
38 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Billie Smith Interview, April 2008" (2008). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 902016.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/214
Transcript
Matt Ferraton [00:00:00] Yes, we’re ready.
Nancy King Smith [00:00:05] I’m Nancy King Smith. It is April 15, 2008, and Matt and I are about to interview Billie Smith. Billie, did you grow up in the Cleveland area?
Billie Smith [00:00:18] I did, Nancy. Not very far from here on Ardoon.
Nancy King Smith [00:00:21] Really? Can you tell us a little bit about your growing up experiences and where you were?
Billie Smith [00:00:26] Well, it’s very interesting. I grew up on Ardoon, which is quite close. But on the other hand, we did come down this way as we snuck into Troop A on occasion and saw the horses. And then when I was married, I moved out to Almar Drive and I was on Melbourne Drive until last June, last year, so. And Shaker Heights Schools all the way, Boulevard, Onaway, Mrs. McLaren. And then of course, Woodbury Junior High and on to Shaker Heights High School. And there we are, Shaker Heights from my feet up.
Nancy King Smith [00:01:01] So you’ve seen this area for a long time and seen it change and in some ways perhaps stay the same.
Billie Smith [00:01:09] I have, I have. We went from a group of horses to ice skaters down here close by on Kemper. That was big change.
Nancy King Smith [00:01:18] Yeah. Tell us about the horses. I’ve not heard much about them.
Billie Smith [00:01:23] Well, There was the 107th Cavalry was located down where the Skating Club now is, next to Doan Brook. And as a matter of fact, there was a bridge across Doan Brook at that time. And we kids used to come down and of course, sneak into the stables to see the horses and then go and have picnics on a rock in the middle of Doan Brook. And of course, our parents were having fits and we were told later on not to go. We couldn’t go. There were bad people down there. So Doan Brook ’s changed.
Nancy King Smith [00:01:54] Did you ice skate on the lake?
Billie Smith [00:01:56] Not very much, but we walked over around the lakes a lot in the summer. And that’s an unfortunate experience that I remember is one day kids were walking around Lower [Shaker] Lake and they were bringing a boy out who had drowned. And that’s something, unfortunately, that you don’t forget. You’d like to, but you don’t. And after that, more signs went up, but I don’t think there are many “No Swimming” signs today, are there?
Nancy King Smith [00:02:23] Of course, it’s so shallow, it would be hard.
Billie Smith [00:02:25] Oh, yes, I guess that’s right. You’d have to wade out pretty far.
Nancy King Smith [00:02:28] You’ve had a lifetime involved with the out of doors and environmental education. How did you get started with that and some of your early experiences with it?
Billie Smith [00:02:41] Well, I wanted to ride horseback and so did some friends. And so we found a place where we could ride horseback in classes, and we decided we would do that. We coaxed my father into allowing me to go. And from then on it was sailing at Red Raider, I guess for the rest of my working career. I didn’t work very hard to learn to ride, but I did work hard enough, especially since we were being taught by a man who was from the 107th Cavalry down on Kemper Road, who later was my brother-in-law.
Nancy King Smith [00:03:20] Ah. So your real love for the outdoors came through wanting to ride horses. And how did that sort of turn into an appreciation of and all of that?
Billie Smith [00:03:33] Well, have you ridden?
Nancy King Smith [00:03:36] Very little.
Billie Smith [00:03:37] I mean, when you get on a horse and ride through the woods at any time of year, you see just about everything high and low both. And one of the things we do when we’re walking through the woods is always looking at our feet to make sure we don’t stumble over a trunk of a tree or a stone. But when you’re on a horse, you don’t have to worry about that. So you can really fall in love with just about everything that’s around.
Nancy King Smith [00:04:03] Tell us about how Red Raider got started.
Billie Smith [00:04:07] Well, my husband was a student at Shaker Heights High School and he worked for Coach Moritz who had Shaker Day Camp. But then when he graduated, he decided he wanted his own camp. And he was teaching at Malvern School and he had a few students like Arthur and Paul Newman and others. And he convinced their parents that they should come out with him to a camp program during the summer. And he had no Willie’s night and a woman at his house who was housekeeper who packed lunches. So he filled up the Willies night and took them out to Bedford Reservation. And this has nothing to do with the Nature Center, but it was kind of fun, I’m told, because Paul Newman was among the group. And the ranger would come by every day on a horse and he would ask Paul what the specials were down at his father’s store downtown. And Paul would stand up and tell him and then on they go. And the next year he got a stake body truck with a canvas top, put benches in it. And then somebody out in Burton made him a bus. Made him a bus. He got a chassis and made him a bus. That was the Flying Lulu. And they all had names. And then there was school bus driver who came with her orange crate school bus the summertime and drove for him too. And it just gradually increased from that old Willie’s nights to a couple of buses. In the meantime I was learning to ride horseback with my friends and he allowed us to work six weeks during the summer. He didn’t have a big enough camp for us to work the rest of the summer, so we were allowed to work. And I continued to do that, so did a couple others. And then it got into college years and came back during the summer. Worked there too. When I graduated, he had a job opening which was sort of office manager job, which was also jack of all trades. So that was mine. And it grew during the war when there was a need for day camps, and it was a good day camp. But it did indeed increase greatly during the war because moms were going to work and dads were overseas and they needed both males and outdoor camping, outdoor education, as it came to be called.
Nancy King Smith [00:06:20] So when did the two of you get married?
Billie Smith [00:06:25] Well, my husband’s first wife, Alice, who was a lovely, lovely woman, died in 1941 of cancer and left two little boys. And this lady who had worked in his home since he was born, came up and took over, which was wonderful. So having been married practically when he was out of high school, he was a merry widower for about 10 years. So we were married after 10 years. So that was about it. We were married in 1952.
Nancy King Smith [00:06:57] What was the last year of the camp?
Billie Smith [00:07:00] 1975. We sold the camp to a couple who promised, unfortunately not written, that they would keep it as a camp. But after one year, they found out they couldn’t do everything by computer. They sold it to a developer.
Nancy King Smith [00:07:18] Tell us a little bit more about what did happen at Red Raider besides horseback riding.
Billie Smith [00:07:25] Well, we were supposedly known as a horseback camp, but that wasn’t really it. We had horses in the wintertime. Originally they were rented and we decided that that wouldn’t do. So then we owned a few and it grew and grew, and so you had to have a way of feeding them in the winter. So then began the horseback riding classes on weekends and after school. But in the summertime, we tried to focus on, of course, the riding and teaching kids to swim and camping, craft skills and the out of doors, some handcrafts to go along with that and of course, the sports to keep them all fit. And that was our focus, not just horses. So it was one big outdoor experience.
Nancy King Smith [00:08:14] Before we move to Nature Center, tell us a little more about your growing up in this area in Cleveland and your memories of Euclid Avenue.
Billie Smith [00:08:26] Oh, I don’t have many memories of Euclid Avenue. I was a protected child. Living in the Shaker Heights School District, my father kept reminding me the taxes were high because we lived in Cleveland with a lot of judges, and then Shaker Heights School District. And, you know, we were just ordinary kids. Walked to school and teased each other on the way, then biked to school, had clubs in our backyards in the summer. My parents offered me the opportunity to go to camp, and I said, no way was I going to go to camp. And so I entered this profession with very little experience, but it was a good place to grow up, Shaker Heights. I mean, we were lucky kids.
Nancy King Smith [00:09:08] So after the camp finished, you were still living in Shaker, and how did you get involved with the Nature Center?
Billie Smith [00:09:17] Well, I got involved with the Nature Center just cold one day. I didn’t even know it existed, actually. I think that was the case with a lot of people at that time. And drove by and drove in, and there was Dottie Mortenson, and she was our volunteer coordinator, and I think she had an office in the front. And she welcomed me and said, We have a place for you. And I thought, well, it’s worth a try. So that was the beginning.
Nancy King Smith [00:09:47] Well, tell us about some of the things you have done over the years.
Billie Smith [00:09:51] Well, I think they probably started me folding envelopes or folding letters, putting them in envelopes first. A really tough job. And then, of course, the Friends came along, the Friends of the Nature Center. And we became very close. Matter of fact, there are still eight of us, a lunch bunch, that get together for lunch. And that was that original group. And we began to develop programs. And I think we were pretty proud of some of the programs that we had. I was thinking on the way down here, we used to get a bigwig come. And I remember particularly Steve Kress. Do you know who Steve Kress is? [crosstalk] He’s at Cornell University, and he’s the ornithologist. And he reintroduced the birds to the little fellows, with the orange heads, to the coast of Maine. And he set up a way of nesting, encouraged them to come and nest. He also used that technique down in South America at the Galapagos. But he came and we used to have, you know, we used to have a big person like that come in. And I think that was a great help to the Nature Center because people then would begin to come in to see these people who were known all over the United States, if not more. And that was fun planning the programs. We had a good deal of fun. There was a lot of camaraderie. And we had the Friends dinner, and we had some special things that the Friends did. And there was a pretty good group of us that still survive.
Nancy King Smith [00:11:24] Yeah, that’s great. Any other programs that come to mind that you-?
Billie Smith [00:11:27] Well, I was assistant vice president or vice president to Sally Schultz, and at that time I was in charge of facilities and programs. And that was kind of a challenge because I didn’t know a whole lot about it. But I guess one knows when one sees something going wrong and one knows when a program is successful and it is not. So we had a couple committee heads that I worked with at that time, as I said, was a board member and have been a board member. Now we’re board members on the other end of the hook. So.
Nancy King Smith [00:12:07] Good ahead, and just any other things are around the Friends as you rattled off a number of the things that are done. Say a little more about the Fireside Dinners and just a little more detail about some of the programs that you mentioned.
Billie Smith [00:12:22] Well, we’re having a fireside cocktail party, as you know, this week. And the fireside dinners were lots of fun because we had good times getting together, and we’d always come up with a theme. And of course, Linda Johnson, you know, was a key person in all of those. She was energy and ideas. And we had- One time we had tablecloths and there were maps on them, and we bought old National Geographic magazines and took out the maps and used them for tablecloths and innovative kinds of things that were fun. And we usually had programs. Sometimes we didn’t. Sometimes I think we just talked to each other about what we’d been doing and how we’d been doing it. Which, of course, reminds me, and I have to insert this, that on March 29th, we had 160 former Red Raiders out at a memory program out at another nature center in Geauga County, with which I’ve become affiliated in a way, in Geauga County. But that was pretty exciting. And the Friends were a little bit like that. We’d have times when we could all talk together and fuss over table decorations and potlucks and who was going to get the turkey and the ham and all the kinds of stuff that go around potluck dinners. Sometimes there was a real fire that was way back, but it was a lovely program.
Nancy King Smith [00:13:50] I know you also were involved with the Doan Brook Committee.
Billie Smith [00:13:54] I was. I was secretary for so many years. And also with the party in the Park Committee. I was secretary of that when there were still little places in the woods where you had people setting up their favorite appetizers and so forth.
Nancy King Smith [00:14:08] Describe the early parties in the park.
Billie Smith [00:14:12] Well, I don’t remember a whole lot about them, except, of course, there was a lot of planning that went into them, and it seemed to me that they were. I was unescorted at the time, so I didn’t really take a lot of interest in going. But they had little booths and everybody went around and took samples of famous chefs who brought their favorite meal around. And it was a lot of fun. I mean, it was kind of like a carnival. Of course, everybody prayed for good weather, but remember when we had them on the bridge as well? So it was kind of an offspring or a forerunner of that. And then, of course, we got, I think we had one here one time. Not sure, but anyway. But it took a lot of planning, and it was lots of fun to sit there and listen to all the people plan and take minutes as best I could. And then I took minutes for- I guess I started with Ann Burton taking minutes for the Doan Brook Committee and stayed with it until they awarded me a T-shirt and said goodbye, because, of course, somebody would sit there with a computer. And not only that, but the Doan Brook Committee started talking in scientific language, which was a little beyond this old lady. But it was a good time. It was a good time.
Nancy King Smith [00:15:31] But what are some observations of changes that you saw in the brook over the years that you both lived near it as a child and then on up through the times?
Billie Smith [00:15:44] Nobody that I knew ever talked about the brook. I mean, it was just there. It wasn’t- And I guess nobody cared about it because it was just there. And we went down and went wading in it, as I said, had a picnic on a rock and fooled around. But it wasn’t very important in our lives at all. So it just ran out. Then I found out it started up under Canterbury Country Club. I was impressed by that and the other fork. But in our lives it wasn’t important. It’s not important until I got involved down here at the Nature Center and became aware through people like Ann Burton and Jean Eakin, who walked around the lake, I think, most of the days of her life.
Nancy King Smith [00:16:38] So you weren’t actually involved in the freeway fight?
Billie Smith [00:16:42] No, no, I was not. No. That was as far as I was concerned. Miller and Eakin, and I’m sure there were others, but those are the two people. Oh, and a woman who lived on North Park. I can’t remember her name, but she, too. The three of them are what I remember.
Martha Eakin [00:17:05] Mary Elizabeth. Mary Elizabeth Croxton.
Billie Smith [00:17:07] That’s right. Mary Elizabeth Croxton. Those were the three people that I remember that saved the round here. But again, it was a dump. I mean, we didn’t- We didn’t know much about that either until 1975 when I found out about it.
Nancy King Smith [00:17:24] In terms of the Nature Center, once you did get involved in the early ’70s, you have seen it change too. Can you describe some of the different things that you noticed have changed along the way?
Billie Smith [00:17:40] Well, of course, one thing is the growth of the staff, for one thing. I mean, we had a small staff and it was more family like, actually. And then of course, the growth of the building, which has been pretty fabulous as things developed. I think those are initially the two big things that we see going on. That personal touch of the staff was very important to all of us. In the old days we were in with. Oh, you know, we had a docent training program too. You remember that? And that was a nice program. We all followed Rich Horton around in the woods and I think I kept my notes on that until I moved just last year. And I remember him telling us trees were like apartment houses with basements and rooftops. And lots of, lots of wonderful information was passed out to us. And then, of course, we were delegated to pass that on to the children. And we always had a mom, usually had a mom who come along in the group as the tail end, keep them in shape person. And it was a good time. It was a good time.
Nancy King Smith [00:18:54] So you led school classes?
Billie Smith [00:18:56] Not very many. The reason I didn’t, I think, is because I figured I’d spend 36 years doing that and I wanted to be with big people, so I didn’t do much of that. But just occasionally.
Nancy King Smith [00:19:12] Well, let’s see. How have you seen the lakes, the land? You’ve been on, at various times, on committees that have looked at the trails. And how have you seen all of that change?
Billie Smith [00:19:31] Well, Stearns Trail was practically nothing in my mind. And of course, when I learned more about it, why it meant more to me. And as we have discussed, I’m still hoping that maybe someday they’ll put learning signs on the trails. I mean, things that will say this is a watershed and this is Doan Brook and this is watch out for flood time and that kind of thing. I think it should be more of a learning situation. I hope one day that will happen, but we haven’t had that yet.
Nancy King Smith [00:20:05] Have you any plant or animal changes from the time you were-?
Billie Smith [00:20:11] Well, there were no deer, as far as I know. And I have seen deer here now, but that wasn’t the case. But the raccoons are- I haven’t seen raccoons, of course, lots of flock squirrels, but I remember we had a fish that we hoped would do wonders. Remember the white amber fish that was supposed to eat up all the bad stuff in the lake and somehow they got lost? I think they must have gone over Coventry Road in a flood. But it didn’t work out the way it should, I think. I saw an article recently that somebody in the school district had found a frog in the lake. So things are picking up.
Nancy King Smith [00:20:52] So you don’t remember playing with frogs as kids?
Billie Smith [00:20:55] No. Although we did have tadpoles I collected someplace and took home in a jar and watched in the basement. But I’m not sure they came from Shaker Lakes. They may have, but I’m not sure.
Nancy King Smith [00:21:07] You were also helpful with getting West Woods going. Tell us about that project.
Billie Smith [00:21:13] Well, that project developed because that West Woods is across the road from where our business was. And we used that property. It was a city wilderness. It was outside of the city. It really was a wilderness. My husband and I used to ride horseback over there and had to be very careful watching out for bogs and trails that were not marked and that kind of thing. So it became very special. We had Indian Days over there. The kids used to explore the ledges. They had overnights over there. We had a counselor who always put a rope around the edge of the. To make sure nobody fell in and just really enjoyed using the West Woods. Before it was the West Woods, it was owned by the Meadows Building. We kind of felt we owned it. We had a dollar-a-year kind of agreement. There was a lake that sometimes was a lake and we could teach the kids to canoe in it. Then they’d drain the lake and brush would grow up and we’d have to be careful with the canoe paddles and then they drain it again. So we had a lot of fun with that. And we had people who lived in the mill house down beside the lake. There was a newlywed couple, and they lived down in that mill house. And no electric and no heat, but they managed, and they are now. They thanked me the other day for having hired them both because they’ve now been married 35 years.
Nancy King Smith [00:22:34] They’re still there?
Billie Smith [00:22:35] No, not there. They tore it down. He lives out in Garrettsville as much. They live out in Garrettsville now. Still in the neighborhood, though. And interestingly enough, another connection with Westwoods was Bob McCullough, who was one of the commissioners. He came to our camp and worked as a staff person for one year. And when he graduated from college, why, there was a job offered in Geauga County. And he said, I’ve been there. So he took the job and he’s lived there ever since. He’s lived in Burton and he’s a park commissioner at this point. So another connection. I mean, there are just kind of a number of connections with West- [inaudible]. I worked out there on the reception desk a year ago, and never a day passed that somebody didn’t come in who had been to Red Raider, which made me feel very good. We’d have good old chats about that. And of course, we did a lot of riding around Music Street and back in that way. So it was really partly ours.
Nancy King Smith [00:23:32] How did Fox get his name?
Billie Smith [00:23:35] That’s a family name. His name is really Ralston Fox. And it was all family, New England family. His father was upset because he was the first New Englander that hadn’t, or first Clevelander that hadn’t been born in New England. But it was a family that way. And we have five of them in the family now, all Foxes, and some, a couple of Ralston Foxes. So the youngest one is about four [laughs], but they hooked on to that.
Nancy King Smith [00:24:02] I’m sure they did. With the Nature Center, you’ve seen up times and down times. Can you share any of the times where you felt like things were, people were not necessarily pulling together and there might have been differing visions of what should be?
Billie Smith [00:24:27] That’s a tough question, Nancy. I don’t like to be negative. I really do. But I think we all know that there was one situation where the administration was not keyed into our mission, and that was disappointing.
Nancy King Smith [00:24:47] I know there have also been financial times where things were not as strong. Can you reflect on any of that?
Billie Smith [00:24:57] No, I wasn’t involved with financial things, and I just prayed that they would make it.
Nancy King Smith [00:25:05] Mm hm. What’s your favorite memory or experience related to the Nature Center?
Billie Smith [00:25:15] I guess there have been several staff members with whom I felt a connection. And the land. The land here at the Nature Center and the land around the lakes has become very important.
Nancy King Smith [00:25:38] What would you dream for the future of the Nature Center?
Billie Smith [00:25:43] To be a key element in preservation of the land and to continue to be a key and more important element as far as teaching children is concerned. And, of course, to be financially secure.
Nancy King Smith [00:25:59] Martha, why don’t you jump in here?
Martha Eakin [00:26:02] I wanted to ask whether you were involved at the very beginning of Friends. I mean, were you- Did you sort of help what we call Friends get going?
Billie Smith [00:26:10] Yes, Martha, pretty much.
Martha Eakin [00:26:15] And do you remember?
Billie Smith [00:26:17] Oh, well, Ann Herbruck would be the one that could tell you about that. She was more in the beginning than I was. And they did some different things that I was not involved in. I think they were the ones who started the store as a matter of fact. I think Ann would be able to answer that question more effectively that I can.
Martha Eakin [00:26:36] But you mentioned gatherings and that that was a positive thing. Do you see changes that have happened as Friends has gone along? I mean, were there parts of the program that you liked more or less?
Billie Smith [00:26:52] Well, I don’t know whether I liked it more or less, but we had a wonderful Squirrel’s Nest and that was part of the Friends. We had lots of fun doing it and of course our own buying.
Nancy King Smith [00:27:03] Describe the Squirrel’s Nest.
Billie Smith [00:27:05] Well, it was upstairs and downstairs and we had people come in from various agencies in town, museums in town. Not unlike what Doris did when she had it over at LaPlace. It was fun bringing all the people together who thought about the out of doors and who did things for kids. But I remember Paul Newman donated one of his plates that he won in a race car race and people were- That was in the silent auction and people were bidding and it turned out the lady who bought it bid against herself. But we wrote good old Paul, I mean a couple of times. As you know, I wrote to him for funding for two and he came forth with a little bit. He did that at West Woods as well. So he’s been the proper answerer to my pleas.
Nancy King Smith [00:27:55] That’s great.
Martha Eakin [00:28:02] I’m still up. I’m still hoping to learn a little more about Friends in terms of whether you saw that as important in making you feel like you were a part of here if there hadn’t been Friends.
Billie Smith [00:28:17] Oh, definitely, Martha, definitely. I mean volunteering can be very lonely. You know, you sometimes, as I said, stuff envelopes and things like that. But the Friends was a communal group of social emphasis and we had fun together. And definitely it was important part of my relationship with the Nature Center. Very definitely.
Martha Eakin [00:28:43] And going back to when you were little, you said you really didn’t think about over here or think about the brook. But did you come here at all or did you live in a part of Shaker that wasn’t-?
Billie Smith [00:28:54] No, I lived up the street on Ardoon. No, Deborah came down here particularly. Just went over to the lake, mostly Lower Lake, and played over there. But never of course it wasn’t in existence until when?
Martha Eakin [00:29:08] ’68?
Billie Smith [00:29:10] ’68. Well, I was- Yeah, it wasn’t even around I guess [laughs] when I was growing up.
Martha Eakin [00:29:17] Do you remember the horses using, from the Cavalry, using- [inaudible]?
Billie Smith [00:29:20] Oh yes, sure. Yeah. As a matter of fact, one of the horses was hit on Coventry Road and they had to call the police and they had to put it out of its misery because they take trail rides from the academy across Coventry Road up into the lakes area, which was nice, but it wasn’t a good idea. [laughs]
Martha Eakin [00:29:47] Well, you asked about frogs.
Nancy King Smith [00:29:56] There’s some stories or things that we haven’t.
Billie Smith [00:30:00] I’ll probably think of them tonight at about 11:00 at night, you know. Yeah, I, I think it’s like getting into group of friends, you know, you have five friends that have had the same experiences in life and then you start asking questions and they start answering and then you start answering and that kind of thing, which, I mean, maybe sometime you might be able to get, if you want to finish the history, to get people who are of the same era together, have them have a cup of tea and start discussing the old days.
Nancy King Smith [00:30:40] Matt, Anything that comes to your mind.
Matt Ferraton [00:30:44] You mentioned that sometimes there’d be tough times. Like for example, you mentioned an administration that wasn’t keyed into the mission that you had. What did you or the group that you work with do to get through those times when you had, say, for example, an administration that maybe just wasn’t going along?
Billie Smith [00:31:04] Well, we were scolded by one of the members of the board. I wasn’t on the board at the time. Well, I was on the board at that time. Yeah. And one of the members scold us, as always, it’s not happens. There’s a split thought and we had a meeting with some of the board members who disagreed with us. We were eventually proven right, you understand, Matt. But I guess the way you get through those things is lean on one another.
Matt Ferraton [00:31:33] What was your mission or the board that you worked with? What was the mission?
Billie Smith [00:31:38] Well, I think it’s related pretty well to the mission we have today. I think the big thing is to teach the children to live in the out of doors and to appreciate the out of doors and to know what an important part of their life it can be.
Matt Ferraton [00:31:53] Just out of curiosity, if I may ask, why did- At the time, why did some resist those efforts?
Billie Smith [00:32:01] No one resisted those efforts. It was just how things were run.
Nancy King Smith [00:32:10] Really. A lot of, I mean, your whole life has been to help get kids into [crosstalk] the outer doors and to appreciate it.
Billie Smith [00:32:18] That’s right.
Nancy King Smith [00:32:21] And so this whole no child left inside and that kind of effort. Can you reflect on how you see differences in children over the years?
Billie Smith [00:32:34] This probably doesn’t relate directly to your question, but you know, the Cleveland Heights schools used our property during the winter and our facilities. And the children would come out on Monday morning. My husband would pick them up in a bus. One of The Cleveland Heights schools and bring them out with their teacher in blue jeans. And they would spend the whole week there, have a wonderful campfire on Friday night. And they would have related everything that they did in school. I mean, you measure a tree, you cook a meal, you keep a journal, you visit the cemetery, the old family cemetery, that kind of thing. It was the beginning, I guess, of my interest in children. The outdoor education program at Cleveland Heights was outstanding. And unfortunately, as I understand it, why they passed a levy or they did not pass a levy, but that didn’t stop it completely because then we had Lakewood, Rocky River, we had East Cleveland. Interestingly enough, the children from East Cleveland at that time were among the most well disciplined children. And then, of course, you know, we did lots of things. We had hayrides in the evening. As a matter of fact, one Christmas we brought a hay wagon into Warrensville Center and South Woodland and the snow was all over and we had a, no I guess we had a team of horses. We came in and gave the kids hayrides around Byron Middle School and, you know, just learned kind of how you survived, but how you survived. And you also came out at the end of the year even and have affected a number of children’s lives. That was a privilege.
Martha Eakin [00:34:20] You mentioned at one point how the staff, at the beginning it was a much smaller staff and that the staff grew. And were you suggesting that it was more family like before? Before the staff? I looked at my notes and I seemed to have written down more family like. But now I’m trying to relate.
Billie Smith [00:34:39] Well, you know, everything has to grow. And it was small then. And there was the ability to have daily communication, if you wished, with the director and with all the counselors, the staff, people. And that’s hard to maintain, but I think it’s important to maintain at a nature center like this. Again, they’re maintaining that kind of thing out at Westwoods and that’s a huge park district. But there’s always a welcome from everybody when you come out there. And there’s a feeling of, “Gee, I’m glad to see you,” and that we always had in the beginning down here. And then of course, you know, it got more professional and bigger and we lost that. And I’m sad about that.
Nancy King Smith: Well, I think we’ve covered a lot of ground. Yes.
Billie Smith: Before I put my foot in my mouth anymore.
Nancy King Smith [00:35:43] So thank you very much.
Billie Smith [00:35:44] Well, thank you. Hope it’s helpful.
Nancy King Smith [00:35:46] Yeah.
Billie Smith [00:35:47] And who’s going to write the book or whatever it is a journal.
Nancy King Smith [00:35:51] I don’t know that that’s been decided. There are some people who indicated some interest, but I don’t know who’s actually going to do it.
Billie Smith [00:35:58] That’s good. That’s good.
Nancy King Smith [00:36:00] And some of this will be used with the Euclid Corridor project. And then there will be an effort to catalog of the interviews so that at any point, if somebody does want to come in and write or research some piece of it, they’ll kind of know which interviews to go to for what.
Billie Smith [00:36:29] Of course, you know, the question of the older generation is, why didn’t they update the old trolley cars that ran up and down Euclid Avenue instead of building a whole new one? [laughs] I’m enjoying your friends, Martha, when they come to visit. And Dr. Cleveland is just a delight. He’s just such a sweet man. And they’re such nice people that, you know, they’re wonderful.
Martha Eakin [00:36:52] These are people that I went to Hathaway Brown with. Well, all the girls went to Hathaway Brown, but my friend was Kathy, who was a year ahead of me, and Elizabeth was below me, and then Beverly was a ways below that. But when those that don’t live in town come back to visit their dad, they stay with me, and it’s a lot of fun.
Billie Smith [00:37:17] He is such a sweet man. He does not speak much, but he smiles almost all the time.
Martha Eakin [00:37:23] I come in, and at the end of the hall, he’ll be going-
Billie Smith [00:37:27] Well, this shouldn’t be recorded, but it was so funny. They were talking about a baby that had been born. Ten pounds. I mean, it was a huge baby. And so I’ve- [recording ends abruptly]
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