Abstract

Laura Gooch of the Shaker Lakes Nature Center discusses the Center's educational, environmental and public outreach programming; strategic planning; and staffing issues. Also discussed in some detail is the battle against highway construction in the Shaker Heights-Cleveland Heights area, as well as cooperation between the Center and the surrounding municipalities of Cleveland, Cleveland Heights, and Shaker Heights. Additionally, this interview contains details on the history of the Shaker Lakes and the Center. Other topics include bird-watching at the Lakes, academic research at the Center, and Gooch's personal experiences and thoughts on the Lakes and the Center.

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Interviewee

Gooch, Laura (interviewee)

Interviewer

Sack, Mark (interviewer)

Project

Shaker Lakes Nature Center

Date

7-11-2006

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

42 minutes

Transcript

Anthony Bifulco [00:00:01] Okay, today is July 11th. Tony Bifulco and myself, Mark Sack, are here with Laura Gooch doing an interview. Laura, could you tell us first of all where you were born?

Laura Gooch [00:00:13] Fort Worth, Texas. Okay.

Anthony Bifulco [00:00:15] And where did you grow up?

Laura Gooch [00:00:16] Fort Worth, Texas.

Anthony Bifulco [00:00:17] Okay. At what point did you move to the Cleveland area?

Laura Gooch [00:00:22] I moved to Cleveland Heights in 1985, actually lived in Shaker Heights for a couple of months, and then moved to Cleveland Heights.

Anthony Bifulco [00:00:32] Okay, let’s take you back to Fort Worth then. For a moment, could you please describe for us some early memory of an outdoor experience that sticks in your mind?

Laura Gooch [00:00:46] Actually, I’m going to go to New Mexico for that because my family spent a short time every summer in New Mexico and up high in the mountains, 9,000 feet and above, and it is my favorite place. I guess an early memory would be climbing some of the mountains with my father and my two brothers and being high up and looking out and thinking it was great.

Anthony Bifulco [00:01:15] Okay, Some mountain experiences. You don’t have many mountains here in Cleveland. What brought you to Cleveland, if we may ask?

Laura Gooch [00:01:24] My husband is from Shaker Heights originally and his family is here. So when we got married, we moved here.

Anthony Bifulco [00:01:33] How and when did you first get involved with the Shaker Lakes or some affiliated organization with the Shaker Lakes?

Laura Gooch [00:01:42] Well, in probably the early 1990s, I started getting interested in bird watching and bird photography and spent a little time on the trails here. And then in about. I think it was 1994, I was bicycling home from my office in downtown Cleveland for the first time. Actually, the office had moved there, and it was the first time I’d biked. And it was in the spring. Came up the hill and was biking along by on north park by the lower lake. And an unbelievable storm came from the west through downtown. And the first thing I knew about this storm, it wasn’t forecast, it was muggy and kind of oppressive, was that I heard a noise behind me and looked in my bike mirror and saw a black cloud coming. And it overtook me as a very bad storm blew down a lot of trees. I actually saw a tree fall in a house along North Park. And in a relatively panicked state, I was trying to figure out where I could go that was not in the. Where there was no possibility the tree would fall on me, or at least less possibility. And I thought of the nature center and came here. And that, I think, was the first time I was inside the Nature center building. Subsequently, I started doing more bird photography and kind of hanging around here and used to come in to use the bathroom, which I think is a common first entry to the nature center, especially before they did the new exhibit area. And then eventually Nancy King Smith got hold of me, I think shortly after she started here as director and got involved in a little bit of strategic planning about then. It was the year of the brook coming up, year of the Doan Brook. And I have a background in water resources, hydrology, hydraulics, and came up with the idea that we should have a course about Doan Brook. And I think I came up with the idea unilaterally that maybe I should teach the course. And I’m not sure that Nancy was so sure it was a good idea, at least at first. But I did teach the course and we had some guest speakers talking about specific aspects. I think we had a six week, one day, a week, couple hours seminar on Doan Brook.

Anthony Bifulco [00:04:22] And did you develop the curriculum on your own or?

Laura Gooch [00:04:26] Largely, yeah. I certainly had input from a number of other people, but. But I went and dug up historical information and it was a watershed oriented course. So it’s information about how the watershed works and how the modern sanitary and storm sewer systems interact with the brook and how development impacts the brook and that kind of thing.

Anthony Bifulco [00:04:56] What do you recall about the participants in the seminar in that first year? Who were they? What were their interests? What were their backgrounds? Do you recall?

Laura Gooch [00:05:05] You know, it was, I think primarily a number of people who had been involved with Doan Brook for a long time, but not entirely. There were people who just were new to the area and were interested. There was one German fellow who I think married somebody from this area and came just to find out about Doan Brook. I believe Linda Johnson, for example, was in the course. Probably a lot of those people knew more about it than I did, which I didn’t necessarily. I knew it in a sense at the time, but I didn’t know the people at the time. There were a lot of participants. There were at least 30 people who came and more or less stuck out the course, which was fairly impressive for that kind of thing. I think just shows the level of interest.

Anthony Bifulco [00:05:58] Did the course continue for how long?

Laura Gooch [00:06:01] It was either six or eight sessions. Six sessions.

Anthony Bifulco [00:06:06] But it wasn’t a one time offering. After that first course of six to eight weeks.

Laura Gooch [00:06:13] It was a one time seminar celebrating the year of the Brooklyn. There are various things that go on kind of episodically. There’ll be a session about some aspect of Doan Brook that’s an ongoing thing. But the course itself was a one time. I think I’m trying to Remember whether that was ’97 or ’98. I think it may have been ’97, which was officially the year of the brook, even though, more appropriately, it would have been 98, because that’s when Nathaniel Doan actually settled on Doan Brook. But somebody picked up 1997 and ran with it. Yeah, a little bit.

Anthony Bifulco [00:06:54] Okay, how did that running the course and how did that affect your involvement in the center? Did it solidify it? Did it create more of a desire for you to be part of the activities here or-

Laura Gooch [00:07:10] Yeah, definitely solidified it. I got to know some of the people and spent more time here. So, yes, I got more involved after that. I’m trying to think exactly what the sequence of events was. I think after that, some money became available through sewer district study for special projects, and the nature center submitted a grant application. And again, I sort of persuaded Nancy King Smith that we needed as part of that to write a handbook about Doan Brook, and that I should write it. And we got some grant money for the production of the handbook and also to pay me for writing it. So I got paid a relatively small amount to write the handbook. That probably went on from about sometime in ’98 to it was published, actually in 2000. Toward the end of that, they asked me if I was interested in being on the board. I said yes. So I’ve been on the board since then. I was the chair of strategic planning process, and I was on the executive committee. Brought onto the executive committee, I think, because I had kind of more of a technical and environmental background than anyone else. And they felt like they needed that and they needed a hat for me to wear on the executive committee. So they asked me if I’d chair strategic planning. And then we actually did a strategic planning process. So I had to actually deal with doing strategic planning. And I’m no longer on the executive committee. I’m just a board member now.

Anthony Bifulco [00:09:05] Can we get back to the strategic planning? Your recollection of what specifics you were involved in as you developed the plan. I’m assuming that was close to what, 2000, 2001?

Laura Gooch [00:09:18] Actually, no, it was more recent than that. I think we completed it about a year ago. Maybe I’m underestimating that. Maybe it was a year and a half. But you interested in the process? Yeah, the process and specifics about what the plan is? Well, of course, there are going to be other people who can quote the plan better than I can. I don’t keep that kind of thing well in my head. But the process was that we actually hired an Outside planner, facilitator to facilitate the plan. We had a number of committee meetings, perhaps 10 or 12 committee meetings, going through specific opportunities that the nature center has and things that are threatening to the nature center. Kind of a standard analysis of where we could go and where we wanted to go and what our mission statement and goal should be. We did revise the mission statement and the vision for the nature center. There were, I think, two full board sessions that got input from the board on where we should go, agreement on the mission statement and the vision and what the goals should be. And essentially we solidified the education mission of the nature center. But also I think we strengthened the environmental leadership vision that the nature center should not only basically do early childhood education, which has traditionally been one of the big focuses, but also take more of a leadership role in community environmental issues. The Doan Brook watershed, which has been an increasing focus since the late ’90s, but continue with helping try to help improve Doan Brook and provide a better forum for the entire area on environmental issues. And another big focus is to increase the diversity of nature center participation and leadership, which I think is an ongoing struggle. I think actually looking at old pictures, it looks like the participants in nature center activities have been pretty representative of the larger community for a long time. But that’s certainly not true of the nature center leadership, which has been better off and wider than the surrounding community as a whole. So it’s an ongoing struggle to try to increase involvement and participation by people other than the kids who are more like the whole community around us.

Anthony Bifulco [00:12:36] If we can get back to the environmental aspect, Besides Doan Brook Project, does the center offer specific educational programs for adults in the area of improving the environment?

Laura Gooch [00:12:56] Yeah, most of those actually are centered around Doan Brook, but there’s been the laudable lawn care program, which has tried to teach people how to take care of their yards without using excessive chemicals and in ways that retain surface water, rather than facilitating its swift journey into the Doan Brook Rain Barrel Workshops, similarly, that’s watershed focused. There are also native planting information has been focused in the last couple of years. And a lot of the work around the center itself in the last few years has been targeted toward identifying the plant resources on the property and identifying what are non native invasives and what maybe we can do about them, and restoring some native plants where they’ve been either removed over the years or just pushed out by the non natives. There’s been a lot of work on that in the last couple of years, and that was also one of the focuses of the strategic plan to take the stewardship role toward this little property more seriously and move ahead on protecting and preserving the property and trying to get it where we can back toward a state more representative of what it would have been a couple hundred years ago, with the understanding that we’ll never get there, but to serve again as an educational area and an example for what you can do in your own yard.

Anthony Bifulco [00:14:45] Okay, can we talk a few moments about the handbook? Obviously, many hours and weeks and months went into the production of it. Can you talk a little bit about how it’s been utilized, the different ways it’s been utilized as a benefit both to the work here and perhaps even beyond?

Laura Gooch [00:15:10] That’s a little bit of a hard question for me to answer. It has been given out to a lot of the school, to basically all of the schools and libraries in the area. A few schools have used it as a curriculum basis. I think specifically Ruffing Montessori has used it some. Whether other schools have or not, I don’t really know. [00:15:33] The Doan Brook Watershed Partnership has used it sort of as an education tool. And they give it away, not extremely widely, but to donors and to prize winners at various functions as kind of a educational perk. I think people in the area who are really interested in sort of the details of their local environment have used it to explore the Brook Corridor and the surrounding area. And that’s really was my idea of its target audience is people who want to understand the place that they live in some detail would find it something they could go to and use it as a starting point to do some exploring. Every now and then somebody tells me that’s what they’re doing with it, which makes me happy.

Anthony Bifulco [00:16:33] Sure.

Laura Gooch [00:16:34] Actually.

Anthony Bifulco [00:16:35] Okay, so if I understand, we understand correctly, you’ve been connected with the nature center, about 15, 16. 16 years or so?

Laura Gooch [00:16:46] Well, yeah, about that. Not quite that, but yeah.

Anthony Bifulco [00:16:52] What changes have you seen over that period of time? You know, both positive and maybe you’ve seen some things that you don’t like.

Laura Gooch [00:17:07] Well, I mean, the most obvious change is the building itself, of course, and sort of the size and energy of the staff. I think when I first got involved here was very shortly after Nancy King Smith came here. And when you first come to a place, you don’t realize that there’s been a significant change. And I think that was a significant change. Nancy was much more of a proactive leader than the previous folks had been for a while, I think. And during the time that she was here, kind of the energy level of the staff and the breadth of the offerings really have changed. Went from mostly the children’s education programs to offering quite a bit more for the community as a whole. Much more involvement in Doan Brook. Much more involvement in just kind of the larger area, environmentally oriented community. So those are positive and the building I think has been very positive. On the negative side and it’s directly related. I think financial issues are looming large now. Worries about whether the nature center can sustain the level of programming that it’s offering now and the larger building as well. And I think that has fostered something of a focus. Focus on financial concerns. That sometimes has a slightly unpleasant edge to it. I guess those are the main things that come to mind. As far as the property goes. The boardwalk goes up and down more than it did 10 years ago, although I think it’s quite firmly anchored. And we got the bird banding program going now for the last five and a half years, which was a new thing.

Anthony Bifulco [00:19:32] You were involved in that from early on?

Laura Gooch [00:19:36] Yeah, I just started really. I’ve only been an assistant to Julie periodically, but I think I must have started pretty shortly. I know I did actually because I remember when the poles went in and being curious what the poles were. So maybe her second, maybe not the first spring she did banding, but that fall I started helping her out now and then. I’m just trying to think physically what changes I can put my finger on. That’s hard. Looking back at pictures, I think that the marsh for example, probably looked fairly different even in 1990 than it does now, certainly before that. But it’s the kind of thing that happens so gradually you don’t. Unless you look at pictures, you don’t have a grasp of it.

Anthony Bifulco [00:20:30] Speaking of pictures, there’s a notation here from the pre interview discussion through some photography.

Laura Gooch [00:20:37] Yeah.

Anthony Bifulco [00:20:38] Focusing primarily in this area.

Laura Gooch [00:20:41] Well, actually I do mostly birds and I do photograph here actually. Haven’t been much lately, been too busy. But I’ve done a lot of bird photography around here and some landscape and that kind of thing. That’s actually. That is what got me here in the first place was coming here to watch and photograph birds.

Anthony Bifulco [00:21:12] Okay. I guess connection. You’ve heard about the famous freeway fight. Obviously you weren’t in town during that period. But from things that you’ve heard, seen, read discussions. Can you comment on how important that period of time was to this facility and obviously to the communities around it?

Laura Gooch [00:21:48] Well, I mean obviously it was critical to the facility and gave birth to it and certainly wouldn’t be here if the Clark and Lee freeways were here instead. My view is that had that freeway gone through, this part of Shaker Heights and Cleveland Heights would probably look about like East Cleveland or Cleveland between University Circle and downtown looks now just been destroyed. I lived in Boston for a few years and know what the elevated freeway through the north end did there. And it’s just, I think it probably, it’s just hard to imagine what the east side of Cleveland would be like had those freeways gone through.

Anthony Bifulco [00:22:49] Children? You and your husband, do you have children?

Laura Gooch [00:22:51] No.

Anthony Bifulco [00:22:51] No. There was a question. Some of these questions also you need to know or come from the folks in the Nature Center who are gathering this information for their 40th.

Laura Gooch [00:23:02] Right. I’m on that committee. Yeah.

Anthony Bifulco [00:23:07] So we’re trying to touch base on all these things. How have your experiences with the Nature center shaped your view of the natural world?

Laura Gooch [00:23:33] Well, I think what I’ve learned over the years that I’ve been here is that there’s always. There are always things going on around you that are. You have an influence on them, but they’re essentially indifferent to you. And it is very interesting to eavesdrop on that world that most people are pretty much oblivious to and to try to understand some of what’s going on around you without your direct intervention. I think we have an obvious responsibility to try not to destroy that world. But I really enjoy the opportunity to look in a little bit.

Anthony Bifulco [00:24:49] Have you ever been surprised or disappointed by something that the Nature center has done or offered or taken away or.

Laura Gooch [00:25:13] Yes, actually, no, I would rather not.

Anthony Bifulco [00:25:27] That would be the disappointed.

Laura Gooch [00:25:29] That’s. Yeah, that’s the disappointed one. And I, I, Yeah, I would rather not.

Anthony Bifulco [00:25:33] Okay, dreaming for a moment here. What would you like to see happen at the Nature center or for the Nature center in years to come?

Laura Gooch [00:25:50] Well, I mean, the obvious and not very imaginative one is that we manage to keep our finances such that we can sustain our programs. I would like for the Nature center to be the hub of some fairly serious academic level research about urban watersheds. That would be my dream, I guess. And that would be in conjunction perhaps with the Doan Brook Watershed Partnership, which I am also on the board of. [00:26:25] But yeah, that would be.

Anthony Bifulco [00:26:27] And who would that involve? This serious academic research. Who would envision it?

Laura Gooch [00:26:30] The folks at Cleveland State and the folks at John Carroll, Miles Coburn, and I’m really bad at names and I can’t remember Julie Wolin, perhaps at Cleveland State, but there’s some other people who are more appropriate that I’m not going to come up with the names of.

Anthony Bifulco [00:26:51] But you’re talking about university-level research.

Laura Gooch [00:26:54] Right down to involving, you know, high school students and some of it and that kind of thing.

Anthony Bifulco [00:27:01] Are there currently programming options for high school students? I mean, I see volunteers here, but in terms of any type of research connection with science department and local high schools?

Laura Gooch [00:27:16] A little bit, but not much. There isn’t anything formal and there are, you know, a few students periodically get interested in water quality issues, I think primarily. And we’ll do something that has at least some connection to the Nature Center, but we don’t. There’s not much of a formal program set up. I think, you know, Tori Mills has helped with some students and that kind of thing. And I think. I don’t know whether we really have the facilities for it, but some kinds of science enrichment for maybe harder core science enrichment for junior high school age kids and that kind of thing would be.

Anthony Bifulco [00:28:01] You’ve mentioned several times the challenges in terms of finances. Where does the money come from today to sustain and maintain the facility and the programming?

Laura Gooch [00:28:19] It’s a combination of grants from Cleveland and Gund foundations and private donations from members, membership dues to some extent. And there are some. We have had some very large private donations, bequests. There is a- There’s the Evergreen Society which is essentially a planned giving program. There is an endowment fund that spends off a certain amount of money to the Nature Center each year. It’s a set percentage and I think those are probably the main sources of funding. There is not any public funding. Oh well, of course there are fees for camp and the school programs and that kind of thing. And the school program from Cleveland Heights is a significant part of the Nature Center’s income. I think it’s kindergarten, second grade, and fourth grade have programs that are part of their science curriculum that they send to kids here, particularly fourth grade.

Anthony Bifulco [00:29:45] And I guess what we’re saying is those sources cannot be relied upon to continue.

Laura Gooch [00:29:54] Well, we need more grants than, than we have lined up to continue over the next few years. Yeah.

Anthony Bifulco [00:30:03] And is there a grant writer on staff?

Laura Gooch [00:30:05] Oh, yeah, they have a pretty good development department. Yeah, that’s certainly aware and focused on trying to close the gap. Part of the capital campaign for the building included transfers to operating for several years. And we’re coming to the end of that.

Anthony Bifulco [00:30:23] And the other challenge you mentioned was increasing the diversity in terms of the adult involvement with the center. Is that specifically being addressed and in what format?

Laura Gooch [00:30:39] It is specifically being addressed. And I don’t know that I can say exactly what the details are, but that is one of the focus areas. Among other things, David Wright has a couple of outreach programs that focus mostly on Cleveland, the Cleveland area. And I don’t think, frankly, that those are necessarily going to get kind of long-term adult involvement in the Nature Center. They’re more targeted toward giving some opportunities to kids who wouldn’t have the opportunities otherwise. So I think they’re good, but I’m not sure that they’re going to address the diversity problem. But in terms of the board, board development efforts have included a component of trying to get more minorities involvement over the past few years. There is an issue there that one of the things that is not exactly a requirement for being a board member, but it’s close, is fairly substantial financial contributions. So you have at war the idea that you want a more representative board, more representative of the community, and the idea that in order to be on the board, you need to be making $600 minimum contribution financial. Now, not everyone does, and there’s some understanding that not everyone can, but that’s part of the picture there. And I think maybe I’m more sensitive to that conundrum than most people are.

Anthony Bifulco [00:32:28] And from your point of view, we know that Clevelandites in Cleveland all have some relation to the Nature Center. How would you characterize the communities, each of their communities and their relationship or connection to the Nature Center? Can it be characterized, or-

Laura Gooch [00:32:51] I think Shaker Heights, perhaps because of the name of the Nature Center. People tend to view the Nature center as a Shaker Heights institution, which it is not and never exactly has been. A lot of the support does come from well off folks in Shaker Heights. And a lot of the founders were well off people, oddly enough, mostly from Shaker Heights rather than Cleveland Heights, although they certainly were both. I think Cleveland Heights probably as a. At least people in Cleveland Heights tend to view the Nature Center, I think as a resource that’s available to them. I don’t think people in Cleveland are pretty very much aware of it as kind of corporate entities. I think Shaker Heights, the City of Shaker Heights and the City of Cleveland Heights are both very supportive and- And City of Cleveland is too. But it’s kind of one small blip on City of Cleveland’s radar. And I don’t even know. Jane Campbell was certainly tuned into the Nature Center. I don’t know that Frank Jackson is. Darnell Brown, who’s his chief operating officer, I believe, is perfectly well tuned into the Nature center, but I doubt if he thinks it’s real. Important for Mayor Jackson.

Anthony Bifulco [00:34:17] Okay. Is there anything about the Nature center or the Shaker Lakes or Doan Brook that you’d like to share with us that you know, we haven’t touched upon that you think it’d be important to have as part of the interview?

Laura Gooch [00:34:39] Well, I guess one thing about the lakes and the Brook is that they are. There are pretty interesting historical resources or archaeological resources, almost leftovers from the times of the Shakers that people are largely unaware of and that don’t get much press that maybe as a community we could make better use of. There are programs about them periodically. I can hear the people at the Shaker Historical Museum screaming as I say that, but I think that the things don’t get much press and aren’t as well utilized. But I don’t know. It seems like as a community, maybe we could exploit those resources a little more. You really have to know where to find the remnants of the Shakers, aside from the dams themselves. In order to understand what they are, you have to be looking pretty hard.

Anthony Bifulco [00:35:58] Could that be made easier or.

Laura Gooch [00:36:02] Yeah, it could. There is a tour in the handbook that lays it out, but I think somehow the kind of level of awareness in the community isn’t very high.

Anthony Bifulco [00:36:17] I’m so curious about that disappointment. We won’t go there. Tony, you want to press pause for a moment? I put this back on. I was wondering if you could explain more about the process that went into researching the book.

Laura Gooch [00:36:31] Well, I mean, essentially the handbook was kind of my creation. I think Nancy King Smith thought, and maybe she still thinks, I don’t know, that nobody would find something with this depth of interest and that it would be underutilized because of that. But I kind of plowed ahead and did what I thought I wanted to do anyway. And there were a certain number of historical and technical references here at the nature center report, technical reports and documents from the founding of the nature center and that kind of thing that I dug through as a starting point. I spent time at the Western Reserve Historical Society and also at the Shaker Historical Museum just digging around, trying to put the picture together. And I thought as I wrote it again, I was writing it really for someone who wanted to understand the place that they lived. So I looked at it both from the kind of social and historical perspectives and from the perspective of the watershed and trying to give people enough information so that they could understand how the physical part of the water system here worked and the stream and the connected sewers. I also worked with the sewer district a fair amount Trying to get the data that they had. They were doing the Doan Brook study at the same time. So I was talking to the engineers there and trying to garner any additional information that they were producing at the time. I don’t know if I answered your question or not. And it took way more time than it in some sense justified to pull it all together. That’s it.

Anthony Bifulco [00:38:53] A couple of last quick questions here for you. Your favorite or fondest experience connected to the nature center.

Laura Gooch [00:39:04] I think birding here and helping with the bird banding are probably my favorite things. And there is a real community around the nature center and around the lakes. You don’t have to come inside. I can’t walk around Shaker Lake, Lower Shaker Lake without seeing probably 10 people that I know and stopping to talk to half of them. And the birding communities are fun because you can always talk about what you’ve seen and what you haven’t seen and what’s surprising and birding with people around here.

Anthony Bifulco [00:39:39] Speaking of birding, have you noticed any changes in the bird population in the 15 years?

Laura Gooch [00:39:47] Oh, nothing that I could pin down. Well, actually one big change that’s unquestionable. Crow population. I think it was, I think it was three summers ago we had a bad mosquito summer. It was sort of the first summer that West Nile was really here. Crow population dropped 80% on the next Christmas bird count over the 30-year average bird count. Crow, crow count at Christmastime. And it’s recovered somewhat, but the crows just aren’t here anymore. And that is a big kind of undeniable change. Attributing it to West Nile is always, you can’t absolutely prove that’s what happened, but circumstantial evidence is strong.

Anthony Bifulco [00:40:35] And I guess my last question, would there be other people you’d recommend that we interview that possibly been referred to us? I’m not sure you have the list of folks that Julie has suggested we speak to, but there are a couple names that you could think of.

Laura Gooch [00:40:53] One guy that I don’t know should be on Julie’s list, but I don’t know if he is or not, is Al Oberst, who’s interested in local history. I think he lives in Cleveland Heights. And who else that might not be on the list? I have already. I gave some names to folks already, so I probably have done it, but Al comes to mind.

Anthony Bifulco [00:41:23] We’ll follow up. We’ll see if that’s okay. Any. Anything else you’d like to share with us?

Laura Gooch [00:41:30] I should probably do it.

Anthony Bifulco [00:41:31] Okay. Well, we appreciate you taking the time being with us.

Laura Gooch [00:41:34] My pleasure.

Anthony Bifulco [00:41:36] Thank you. You will be making a copy of a CD which will have this interview on it.

Laura Gooch [00:41:42] Okay.

Anthony Bifulco [00:41:43] Making sure that you get one of those copies.

Laura Gooch [00:41:45] Okay.

Anthony Bifulco [00:41:46] You can hear yourself. All right. Thank you again.

Laura Gooch [00:41:50] Thank you.

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