Abstract
Artist Lawrence Baker discusses his life and career. Born in Jacksonville, Florida, in 1947, Baker moved to Cleveland in the late 1960s. Baker's early education lacked art programs, so he looked over his brother's shoulder for art inspiration. Art is Baker's own endeavor, and he considers himself as the sole motivator for his artwork. He challenges himself to find individuality in his artwork and to be recognized by the art community. Baker identifies himself first as an artist, then as African American. Recently, Baker made a transition from painting to drawing, but maintains a correlation between the two mediums.
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Interviewee
Baker, Lawrence (interviewee)
Interviewer
Hansgen, Lauren (interviewer)
Project
Cleveland Artists Foundation
Date
12-3-2008
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
35 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Lawrence Baker Interview, 03 December 2008" (2008). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 901025.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/248
Transcript
Lauren Hansgen [00:00:01] Well, I’ll first say that I’m Lauren Hansgen. I’m with the Cleveland Artists Foundation, and we’re here on December 3, 2008, talking with Lawrence Baker.
Lawrence Baker [00:00:10] I’m Lawrence Baker.
Lauren Hansgen [00:00:13] And how about your date of birth and where you were born?
Lawrence Baker [00:00:17] I was born in Jacksonville, Florida, [in] 1947.
Lauren Hansgen [00:00:25] So I guess we’ll start with when did you first realize that you had artistic ability?
Lawrence Baker [00:00:33] I didn’t probably realize that I had any artistic ability because I didn’t have art in high school. I would kind of look at my brother, look over my brother’s shoulder, and he would draw cartoons out of the comic books. And I became interested. Then he eventually died of alcoholism. I found out, from what you’re asking, I think it was a period of time when I entered Edward Waters College. My major was business education, but I was carrying a drawing pad around with me, so I guess that was it.
Lauren Hansgen [00:01:22] And had you done that when you were little? You remember just looking- Not just looking at your brother or- No, just do that yourself?
Lawrence Baker [00:01:28] I just- I didn’t doodle that much when I was little. Like I said, I had no art in high school. They didn’t put art in the buildings until after I left. And I just eventually got interested just by looking over my brother’s shoulder, watching him copy cartoons out of comic books.
Lauren Hansgen [00:01:51] And when- So at what point did you realize that you wanted to be an artist, that that would be something that, I mean, you said you went to school for- When did you decide this is what I wanted to do?
Lawrence Baker [00:02:05] Probably after my first year of college, I switched to an art major. [crosstalk] Yeah.
Lauren Hansgen [00:02:14] Were there any professors or anybody that kind of pulled you in that direction or said, here’s something you should think about doing?
Lawrence Baker [00:02:23] No, no. It was one of my own endeavors. It’s something that I became interested in, and I wanted to see how far I can go with it.
Lauren Hansgen [00:02:36] Did it feel different to go from being in regular classes to being in art classes where there were other people around you that had the same sort of interest? Do you think that fueled you at all, or?
Lawrence Baker [00:02:48] No. I always felt that I wanted to. If I ever said I was going to do something, I had this kind of stick to it-ness to it, to see what I can get accomplished? Now, I’ll tell you this. I went to a number of schools. At Edward Waters College in Jacksonville, Florida, I flunked out the first year, and I eventually drifted into community college when it was broken up into different campuses and after, I like the Brownell Building, stuff like that. And then I went on to Kent. Now, while I was there, as far as my drive to do art, there was a professor at Kent State University. After I got my master’s in art, he told me, you should be satisfied with what you have. I don’t think no person, maybe because of my attitude, maybe because I’m too quiet at times, I’m more introverted than extroverted. He felt that he could say that to me, I should be satisfied.
Lauren Hansgen [00:04:23] Like, he thought you were at a stopping point?
Lawrence Baker [00:04:25] Right.
Lauren Hansgen [00:04:25] And you were like, nah-ah.
Lawrence Baker [00:04:28] So what I did, I decided no one tells me what I should be satisfied with, black or white. And he kind of. That gave me more initiative to continue. And then eventually I drifted into the last college degree of master’s in fine arts.
Lauren Hansgen [00:04:51] Just to- When did you- When did you move to Cleveland?
Lawrence Baker [00:04:58] Late ’60s, I think. ’67, ’68.
Lauren Hansgen [00:05:06] So you’re a young man?
Lawrence Baker [00:05:07] Yeah.
Lauren Hansgen [00:05:09] But going back to kind of touching on what you had just said in terms of having an art education, would you say that it mostly helped you or did it hinder you in other ways? You’ve said that.
Lawrence Baker [00:05:25] Art helped me in a sense, that I began to see things a different way. I began to look at my environment a different way, look at people in a way where, because of studying art, you know, different styles, different stuff like that an artist would do. Now, that is something. Yeah. Now, my early influences at Kent State was Leroy Flatt and Joseph O’Sickey. Okay. So Joseph O’Sickey actually helped me to get back into school. He’s still alive, which I- It really surprised me.
Lauren Hansgen [00:06:26] I think he just had a birthday.
Lawrence Baker [00:06:27] Yeah. 89 or 90, whatever it is. Something ridiculous.
Lauren Hansgen [00:06:36] What were some of the obstacles that you faced as an artist in terms of what kind of challenges did you face to become an artist? And also what sorts of issues did you have to challenge yourself with in your own art? You know, trying to get to make what to do was good art?
Lawrence Baker [00:06:55] Some of the challenges of becoming an artist was trying to find my own individuality. Some artists that I looked at when I was painting was Fairfield Porter, Alex Katz, Milton Avery, Jacob Lawrence. I looked at Avery for how his pastel, like colors to create shapes and what those shapes did to complete the composition within the painting. I looked at Fairfield Porter and Alex Katz, how when you paint three dimensionally, they painted three dimensionally, but they approached it in a different way. I saw it as a kind of reduction of shapes to create volumes. And so What I did, I looked at that and then I. What I did was I had to decide on how I was going to do stuff. And so to a degree, I looked at serial graphs, stuff like that. So what I do, I paint shapes. But the way I paint the shapes, I design the shapes so that they evolve into a volume. Okay. And it looks sort of like a serograph. You’re actually designing the canvas for a completed composition.
Lauren Hansgen [00:08:51] When you start that process in your mind, do you see what the end is going to be?
Lawrence Baker [00:08:56] No.
Lauren Hansgen [00:08:56] Does it kind of evolve for you?
Lawrence Baker [00:08:58] It evolves. It evolves as it goes. And there are times when I look at a canvas, if it doesn’t conform to the volume, then I know that whatever shape I created to use that for, I would take that out and change it. Or if the color didn’t work in terms of the design for the composition, I knew I needed to change that color. So that’s the way. That’s the way my paintings are.
Lauren Hansgen [00:09:34] So it is sort of an organic process?
Lawrence Baker [00:09:36] Right.
Lauren Hansgen [00:09:37] There’s a definite place where you’ve reached?
Lawrence Baker [00:09:39] Right. They’re definitely organic shapes. Okay. They’re not static. They have to be organic to conform to the volume. So I’m not necessarily painting a portrait. So I’m evolving with organic shapes that conform to the volume. And I’m not interested in a portrait. So in a sense, when I looked at these artists, that’s how I determine how to be my, how to create my own individuality out of that.
Lauren Hansgen [00:10:19] What about being an artist living and working in northeastern Ohio? What’s true in your work?
Lawrence Baker [00:10:27] Being an artist and living in Northeast Ohio is very difficult to a degree. I may have blackballed myself because when I thought that I put on a good show, it never got any recognition through publications in the Cleveland area. But I’ve gotten some kind of notoriety for my work in other places. So yes, it’s been very difficult. So I don’t expect no difference. So to a degree, I. I get agitated about it, but I keep moving because, like I say, I compete with artists from all over America. So that’s probably why all of us as artists have some kind of ego. And we want that black and white. We want that attention for our work to be recognized in some way. So the Plain Dealer doesn’t follow up on local artists as much as I think they should. The Cleveland Magazine doesn’t. Even a so-called Black magazine Call and Post does not. You know, Northeast Ohio actually believes there’s only two or three Black artists in this area. And that’s not true there.
Lauren Hansgen [00:12:04] Almost like this area doesn’t give itself enough credit-
Lawrence Baker [00:12:07] Yeah. right. Right.
Lauren Hansgen [00:12:09] For the group of talent that is here.
Lawrence Baker [00:12:11] Right. That’s exactly what I’m getting at. That’s exactly it right there.
Lauren Hansgen [00:12:15] Do you think there’s something about this area, though, that being an artist in northeastern Ohio, that helps you?
Lawrence Baker [00:12:24] That helps me. I think this is one of the best places to live. I think that this is one of the best places in America to go to a doctor. And I also think that this is one of the best places in America to get educated. I think I had a very good education living in Northeast Ohio. But when it comes to being a Black artist, we tend to always get the short end of the stick.
Lauren Hansgen [00:13:01] What kinds of things have you done to work, to bring your work to the public eye?
Lawrence Baker [00:13:07] I compete all over America. Currently, I’m in an All-Ohio art show at the Zanesville Art Museum. That’s regionally. I’m also in a national drawing show at the Impact Art Gallery in Buffalo, New York. I have shown nationally and at a lot of places. The San Diego Art Institute. I’ve shown in Florida.
[00:13:47] I’ve shown at Chelsea in New York. I compete because, like I say, that’s my objective, to get my work seen.
Lauren Hansgen [00:13:59] Do you find it easier, have you had more success spreading your work nationally? And sometimes you wish that it was much easier to get that recognition right here in Cleveland?
Lawrence Baker [00:14:09] Definitely. So I wish we did get that recognition here because when Northeast Ohio tends to look for minority artists, they only see two or three, and that’s not true.
Lauren Hansgen [00:14:29] Or they don’t look in their own backyard, maybe.
Lawrence Baker [00:14:31] Right, right, right. They don’t. They do. Yeah. That’s another way of putting it. They don’t look in their own backyard. Right. I regret that, but. Because like I say, we all, as art people, we all have egos. And my method is. Now, I’m trying to- I think my drawing at this point has improved, but I’m trying to write better. Maybe that’s the reason I don’t have the resources to invest in trying to get the work recognized on paper or in gallery spaces the way it should be, such as producing reproductions, writing art grants, professional photography, etc., etc.
Lauren Hansgen [00:15:38] And it’s- And here we are in Ohio and our costs for all those things are low relative to, you know, trying to be competing in New York City.
Lawrence Baker [00:15:48] Right. But I could say I periodically, I do a show in Northeast Ohio, the work doesn’t sell as much as I think it should. It doesn’t and definitely doesn’t get the recognition that it should because I think my work has improved. And like I say, I think that I’ve gotten a great education living in northeast Ohio and I think that I do some pretty good work. The, the painting that you see on there, for example, on that picture, I have been trying to get into the May show at the Butler Institute of American Art. It’s a national mid-year show. That painting was accepted for exhibition in that show after 20 years.
Lauren Hansgen [00:16:46] After 20 years.
Lawrence Baker [00:16:48] I have been trying to get in that show and that one was accepted. Yeah, this, this drawing here has, I’ve done that has been first place in a regional art show. But this will always, I’ll always remember because you’re talking about a certain time period. That painting, I did it during the period that it was accepted, but I had been rejected out of that show for 20 years and I finally got in it after 20 years.
Lauren Hansgen [00:17:26] Well, there’s something to be said for persistence.
Lawrence Baker [00:17:29] Well, that’s the reason, like I say, I try to be persistent as possible.
Lauren Hansgen [00:17:35] And you think that’s because you can rely on yourself to know that you can see where you should be going and you can see where your work should be going? And if others aren’t yet, it’s just a matter of staying the course?
Lawrence Baker [00:17:47] Right. Staying the course. But I, I’m going to compete even if my work is not accepted in these galleries, even in the Cleveland area. If you. I’ve noticed that a lot of these galleries, if their artists are from instructors at Cleveland State, instructors at Bowling Green, if they haven’t gotten any recognition out of New York for their work or any national fellowships, most of the time these galleries will not accept them. Will not accept them. And I’m probably one of them. But I think my work ranks as well as any artist out there, especially right now, because I know that the quality is there on that.
Lauren Hansgen [00:18:51] On that, what do you feel has been some of your most important accomplishment as an artist?
Lawrence Baker [00:19:00] First of all, having the persistence to feel that I qualify and I’m as reputable as any area artist, whether they be black or white. Some other accomplishments as far as some major things getting into that mid year show at the Butler Institute of art after 20 years, that was, that was le coup de grace for me. Getting a one person show at. What is that museum in southern Ohio? I think it’s Springfield Art Museum. I did a one person. I did a one-person art show at the spring.
Lauren Hansgen [00:19:59] When was that?
Lawrence Baker [00:20:01] I’d have to look at that resume. I don’t even remember.
Lauren Hansgen [00:20:04] Do you remember when you got the call that we had to do that? Did they contact you?
Lawrence Baker [00:20:09] They contacted me. I had- Every year I would compete to get into the Ohio State Fair exhibition and someone saw my work there and gave me a call. And that’s how I was able to get a one person show at the Springfield Art Museum. So that’s one way if I feel if my work is out there, eventually someone will see it.
[00:20:44] I have 3, 400 slides throughout America. I have discs of my work resumes all over the country. And I noticed somebody will see the work. I think someone called me about a show even here in Northeast Ohio for the Art Gallery in Cleveland Heights. I think Cleveland Arts. So I always try to. A lot of stuff I forget, but that’s scheduled for July. And because of the quality of my work, I think if I keep it out there, I keep competing, someone will see it. That’s how I feed my own ego.
Lauren Hansgen [00:21:37] What about a specific painting, painting that you remember that for you was like, well, I’ve really honed it now, I’ve really- This is where I want to be?
Lawrence Baker [00:21:54] Not necessarily, no.
Lauren Hansgen [00:21:56] Do you think of more of the whole body?
Lawrence Baker [00:21:58] A body of work. Body of work.
Lauren Hansgen [00:22:03] Well, is there anything else that you would like to say?
Lawrence Baker [00:22:07] I don’t know. Like I said, I tried to get information to you, you know, and I don’t know what else.
Matt Ferraton [00:22:19] I don’t know if you’d have an answer for this. But from your perspective, do you have any reasons that you might think that Cleveland artists lack recognition or have a hard time getting recognition in your own community?
Lawrence Baker [00:22:37] Yes, an example. This show right here, this is Afro American. Why not- Why not review a person’s work and exhibit it in any university gallery? Why necessarily Afro American artists? But like I said, I’ll do almost anything if it’s to get the work seen. Like for- Give an example. This is what I’m doing now, the drawing. I switched the drawing about three, four years ago. Okay. I wanted to see how far the drawing would go. I had did a body of painting. I have a body of painting. But I switched to drawing and the drawing is becoming successful as far as competing. It’s being accepted in various galleries and national competitions throughout America. But yeah.
Lauren Hansgen [00:23:50] Would you say that you identify yourself first as an artist before you would an African American?
Lawrence Baker [00:23:57] Definitely so.
Lauren Hansgen [00:23:58] And that’s how you would like to?
Lawrence Baker [00:23:59] Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I would. I want to be recognized as an artist, not necessarily an Afro American artist, you know, so this is a. Like I said, this is A prime example of why. Why do this? Why not pick artists other than so called History Month, that kind of stuff. Yeah, it’s disappointing. But if it’s a means of getting the work recognized, then fine, I just have to roll with that. But I’m still going to compete nationally because eventually someone else will see the work and they will say, hey, what do you got there? Can I come see your work? And eventually I may do a show somewhere else. I’ve done shows at Mississippi Valley State. I’ve done shows at Alabama A & M. When I did the show at the Cleveland Botanical Gardens, because I’m doing drawings, Stephen Litt, I wrote him a nasty email, so he probably blackballed me anyway. So I don’t care as long as I, I know the quality work is there. I know that. So I keep working at it.
Lauren Hansgen [00:25:25] Well, that’s very admirable.
Lawrence Baker [00:25:27] Yeah. So, Zach, I don’t know if I- Cause sometimes something like this, this process right here, just sitting here being interviewed. I haven’t done this in 25 years. And that was when this lady was doing a- She had to do a thesis and she included three or four artists. So this, I, because. So, you know, everything clicking in my mind, I made some things that I may have wanted to say. I just can’t think of them right now. Like I said, this is actually nerve-wracking to me right here because I didn’t know what to expect or what, what kinds of things that should be included in such an interview. So.
Lauren Hansgen [00:26:28] Well, we’ve also asked you to jog your memory a bit. Sometimes that’s challenging.
Lawrence Baker [00:26:33] Yeah.
Matt Ferraton [00:26:35] I just have one more question.
Lawrence Baker [00:26:37] You.
Matt Ferraton [00:26:37] You had switched to drawing as opposed to painting. What were your reasons for that?
Lawrence Baker [00:26:44] I just wanted to see. I just eventually just evolved back into the drawing and I wanted to see what would happen with the drawing. I still include portraits. You see, this is a landscape here, but the figure is right there. Here I worked on. These are just landscapes, but in some cases I’m putting the two together. Okay. I also add a figure in the drawing. I just wanted to just kind of switch, but maintain and maintain a correlation between the two. You know, make sure. Because it’s better to be like a master of something than a jack of all trades. Us black artists tend to want just to sell something. A lot of us tend to want to extend ourselves out too far and not master any particular technique. And I think that I’ve mastered I and I’m mastering. Let’s see another way, a way of putting that is that the medium, I’m familiar with it, and I’m continually mastering that particular medium, which is graphite pencils and stuff like that. Okay. I think I have a quality body of paintings that, that you can perceive as mastering the medium. But I want to show that there’s a correlation between the two. So even when I switch the drawing, there’s definite relationship between the two. I’ve looked at Van Gogh drawings, that kind of thing, and how he designed his drawings and the variations in the lines and stuff like that. So if you talk about the variations in the lines of Van Gogh’s drawings, okay. There’s also a variation in the line of the organic shapes within the paintings that indicate volumes. Designing the canvas, designing the drawing to make sure that you have a composition that works and someone can get interested in.
Lauren Hansgen [00:29:32] In terms of your portraits, what type of. What kind of people are you drawn to? For sitters?
Lawrence Baker [00:29:41] Basically, they’re just friends. People that I can say, can I photograph you?
Lauren Hansgen [00:29:47] People that you know and know what you’re trying to bring across.
Lawrence Baker [00:29:51] Right.
Lauren Hansgen [00:29:52] Right through the depiction.
Lawrence Baker [00:29:54] Right. Now, that painting that was accepted at the Butler Institute, that’s called Junior. He died of aids.
Lauren Hansgen [00:30:06] And he was someone that you have known for a long time?
Lawrence Baker [00:30:13] So the painting itself is one thing that kind of clued me in to what you are talking about. Joseph O’Sickey always taught me, don’t put nothing on a canvas if there’s no connection to something else. So when you paint, the same thing applies. If I put a color on the figure, that figure, color. There’s also a relationship between the color and the background to complete the design of the canvas. Because I can teach a high school kid to paint a figure on this wall. But if there’s no relationship between the background or the outside of the figure and the figure itself, it doesn’t complete this thing we call aesthetic principles like harmony, harmony between the colors, that kind of thing. So that’s probably one thing that I kind of clue right there.
Lauren Hansgen [00:31:25] Would you say that it’s not so easy to just tell someone how to do that? It’s more intuitive and something there to develop?
Lawrence Baker [00:31:33] I could- Not necessarily. It’s not intuitive because even as you painting, you have to maintain or understand aesthetic principles. Harmony, rhythm, those kinds of things. But you also have to know something about structure, meaning that I have to know something about the anatomy of the body. Okay. So I know you just can’t- You can’t just put things on the, on the- You can’t just paint that figure if you don’t have any knowledge Even as you’re painting, you have to be aware of your. Your knowledge in art as aesthetics as structure, the figure, etc. Etc. You know, you definitely cannot just paint it. I can teach you- I can teach you the basics, and then the next thing I got to teach you is how to refine that. Then after I teach you to refine it, now I got to teach you how to put yourself in the painting. Because I was an educator for 32 years, and that takes time. That’s what colleges are for. Okay. So, yeah, I can teach you to just paint a figure on that wall, but it’ll look like. Joseph O’Sickey told me, it’s like doing a cutout and sticking it on the wall. And that’s just the way it’ll look if you don’t include aesthetics and if you don’t understand the structures that you’re working with, light sources, things like that that I tried, you know, like you were talking and I tried. Some things just kind of clicked as to what I may have left out. Okay. Anything else?
Matt Ferraton [00:33:44] That’s all I got.
Lauren Hansgen [00:33:45] I think we’re good.
Lawrence Baker [00:33:46] Okay.
Lauren Hansgen [00:33:47] All right.
Lawrence Baker [00:33:48] All right.
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