Abstract
Chris Ronayne, President of University Circle Incorporated, once served as Cleveland's Planning Commissioner. In this 2006 interview, he extensively discusses the Euclid Corridor Transportation Project, detailing how it came about, how it will function, the groups integral to its success, and what he hopes it will accomplish. Ronayne describes his wish that the project - which connects University Circle and Downtown - will revitalize the area, reconnecting the two parts of the city and diffusing people throughout the intermediary corridor. The University Circle neighbohrood and its history are discussed and offered as models for future success. Ronayne also talks about Cleveland's development as a whole, placing the city's layout in historical context and offering his thoughts on planning decisions that could be made to improve the city's viability in the twenty-first century.
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Interviewee
Ronayne, Chris (interviewee)
Interviewer
Gibans, Nina (interviewer); Yanoshik-Wing, Emma (participant)
Project
American Institute of Architects
Date
11-10-2006
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
61 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Chris Ronayne Interview, 10 November 2006" (2006). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 951020.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/258
Transcript
Transcription sponsored by Leonard & Betty Boesger
Nina Gibans [00:00:00] Another sound reading if I can just get you to say your name or the date.
Chris Ronayne [00:00:06] Chris Ronayne. November 9, 2006. 10th. I knew it.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:00:15] Okay. Nina, whenever you're ready.
Nina Gibans [00:00:17] And I'm Nina Gibans. And so we're working on talking to Chris about, Euclid Avenue, his background, and... Do you have your, what you need? Okay. So you're going to do most of the talking. I'm just going to...
Chris Ronayne [00:00:38] Sure.
Nina Gibans [00:00:38] Ask questions and...
Chris Ronayne [00:00:40] Do I put the mic in between us or do I just speak?
Nina Gibans [00:00:42] No. No, you're the main subject. I just do my interfering. All right. So you are now at University Circle, which is a prime place to be in terms of Euclid Avenue. Can't remember a time when Cleveland wasn't thinking about how to connect downtown Cleveland to University Circle. So let's start with how you got to there, which is a long trek, right?
Chris Ronayne [00:01:15] It has been a track from downtown to University Circle for me personally. I'm Chris Ronayne and president of University Circle, Inc. We are a development service and advocacy company that works in the better interest of forty world-class nonprofit institutions throughout University Circle. University Circle was so named in 1902 by Cleveland City Council, and it is the place where there is a confluence of the university in the name University Circle and the original traffic circle at 105th and Euclid Avenue, then Doan Brook. And at one point Euclid Avenue was actually called Buffalo Avenue. But it is a cross street between what is today 105th Street and Euclid Avenue itself, and was designed as a circle, literally a traffic circle, a transit circle, a trolley turnaround. So the name University Circle, again, was founded by Cleveland City Council in 1902 five miles from downtown and was always to be connected to the downtown by a transit system. In 1902, we were literally at the crossroads of new transit and new transportation systems. We were literally coming out of the horse-drawn carriage era into the trolley era and into the automotive era. So if you look back at pictures around the turn of the 20th century at that circle, you will see all of the above circulating around the circle itself. The Winton automobile was just coming on line, as was our trolley system. For fifty glorious years, the University Circle area was connected to downtown through a streetcar network that was one of the world's finest trolley systems connecting our two centers. Along that journey was the historic, famous Millionaires' Row. So picture yourself on a trolley moving from downtown to the Circle, past those glorious mansions of Millionaires' Row in that very, very glory era of Cleveland in the first fifty years of the 20th century. Sadly, in 1954, Cleveland made a regrettable decision to sell off many of those transit trolleys and sold them off to other fine cities like the City of Toronto. We probably regretted that decision the year we made it because for the next fifty years we worked tirelessly to reconnect the downtown center and the central business district and the University Center at University Circle by way of any transportation system we could. How I personally found my way out to University Circle was by way first of City Hall. I worked with the Cleveland City Hall team on the advancement of the Euclid Corridor Project with the Greater Regional Transit Authority, Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority. And basically what we are doing is taking a cue from our past, which is you should connect these two urban centers with a fine transit network between these two growth areas of our city. Downtown and University Circle. The place where I work today in University Circle is Cleveland's fastest-growing employment center. It is where the research economy and the experience economy come together. We have three centers of excellence in University Circle. It is the center of excellence in healthcare. Cleveland can be and should be a world-class, world headquarter city for healthcare. We are also a center of innovation in education and research, particularly as the medical school of Case Western [Reserve] University undergirds that biomedical economy that we are trying to build off of our healthcare acumen. But we also have the fine institutions of the Cleveland Institute of Art and the Cleveland Institute of Music, making for three great universities out at University Circle. The last area of innovation is innovation in arts and culture. We're elated that the Museum of Contemporary Art is moving up the street to University Circle at Mayfield and Euclid to complement the capital expansion of the Museum of Art, the Natural History Museum, the Botanical Garden, Western Reserve Historical Society, and fifteen arts and cultural institutions throughout University Circle. The renaissance for University Circle is right now at the turn of the 21st century.
Nina Gibans [00:05:35] Okay. I'm going to go back to two things. One, 1954. Is that when the subway proposals started coming? Okay. That's critical since we rejected that. Was it Albert Porter? Who was it?
Chris Ronayne [00:05:54] What happened is the city at the mid-point of the 20th century decided to disband their trolley system. There are various theories as to what advanced that notion of getting rid of our transit, but we, in any event, made the regrettable decision to sell off our trolley cars. We had a fine network, over 300 miles of trolley lines in the city of Cleveland, down Euclid Avenue, Saint Clair, Superior, Lorain, Dennison, Kinsman, all throughout the city we had a sophisticated network of trolleys. Those streetcars were sold off. There's still a collection here today of some of them that are held by the Gerald E. Brookins Trolley Museum, which is now down on the Cleveland harborfront. But the Brookins family collected a few of those before they were all sold off to the cities. Yes, various engineers and planners in the mid 20th century, about the year we made the decision to sell, the year after they began to conceive a subsurface system, a subway system, from downtown to University Circle, and that had its fits and starts. From a planning standpoint, it was an expensive proposition. And regrettably, again, the city of Cleveland at the midpoint of the 20th century was pouring out. It was pouring out post-World War Two. We were pouring out in population and we were pouring out in businesses and institutions that made up this fine city. We were sprawling. We were sprawling away from our downtown centers. We were sprawling away from our central spine, Euclid Avenue, those glorious mansions of yesteryear, many, many, many had been demolished by the turn of the mid-twentieth century. So what had happened is we had essentially divested of our urban center, making the subway proposition a very difficult proposition. What then happened is there was a discussion about an elevated transit system, a people mover downtown, if you will. That was another one that seemed to be too expensive from a cost and benefits analysis. The system actually was ultimately picked up by the city of Detroit, and we were back to the drawing board about how to connect University Circle and downtown Cleveland center. And we finally landed on a concept of a bus rapid transit system, which is a more flexible simulated transit, simulated rail system, because much of this project, as we know, you will board right here in the center and you may be standing here in the center of the street as if you are jumping on a rail system. But this is the way of the future. And in the 21st century, it's about flexible transit systems. So we went to the bus rapid transit system whereby you literally have a rubber tired rail system, rail on wheels, if you will, to and from these two urban centers. So the project itself had a beginning point of a subway system, and we ended up with this fine BRT system that is much more flexible, much more, much more cost manageable, and less burdensome from a infrastructure maintenance and upkeep standpoint. So we're excited about being at the cutting edge of transit technology here in Cleveland, Ohio, where we have been throughout periods of our history at the cutting edge of transportation technologies. We took this cue from other places around the world. Curitiba, Brazil, was one of our models that we looked to as a model from which to build this project. This is a Federal Transit Administration New Start pilot project, and we're glad that Cleveland once again is on the map as a leader in transportation as we go forward with this project.
Nina Gibans [00:09:31] I can hear the energy in here now. That's great. What about the businesses and the things that are... Well, it's in process. The mom and pops that are disappearing or what do you expect to happen?
Chris Ronayne [00:09:48] This is a restoration project true and tried. The Euclid Corridor Transportation Project is trying to help Cleveland bring back its central spine, its main street, its glory as the main street of Cleveland, Ohio. In so doing, we are working with the various neighborhood development corporations that make up this corridor from downtown to the Quadrangle–Cleveland State area to the Midtown area to the Uptown Area, University Circle, Fairfax, Hough, Midtown, Saint Clair, everybody that surrounds this area and into East Cleveland to talk about what really will happen in the way of real estate when this transit investment happens. One of the things we're working on is making this a true transit and pedestrian-friendly street. It is going to be a slower speed street for automobile vehicular passengers. It is going to prioritize transit and it's going to prioritize the pedestrian, and where the rubber literally meets the road there is in our zoning and how we're going to actually address the development at the curb sides. We are working on something called form-based zoning, which is to bring the forms of the building back up to the streets as they were in yesteryear Cleveland without large seas of surface parking, parking the landscape of Euclid Avenue, but bringing to the curbside buildings and bringing them at a scale minimum two, three stories, hopefully higher, higher density throughout the corridor. The concept here is to reshape the form of the street around the transit spine itself. We also have some innovative pieces of this project like the bike lanes. It's important to connect the students of Case Western [Reserve] University, Institute of Art, Cleveland Institute of Music, Cleveland State University, and Tri-C with the library systems downtown, connecting campus to campus students with a wonderful bike lane opportunity here that also is a part of this corridor project. So we are in an era of multimodalism. We're not every trip has to begin and end in an automobile where trips can be more affordable, more efficient, and more fun when you're on transit or on a bike or on foot. And the idea here also, from a cost efficiency standpoint, is to beat the price of parking in Cleveland, Ohio, by promoting transit as a way to go. But the buildings will line up along the street because of the form-based progressive zoning that we are bringing back to, again, restore the character of this historic main street.
Nina Gibans [00:12:17] Great. How did you get into planning? How where do you come from?
Chris Ronayne [00:12:24] I was born in Chicago, Illinois. One of the other great transit communities in America. And I remember often, living with my folks in the center city of Chicago, the many trips we would take downtown and throughout the city by transit, by bus, by the L system, visiting the downtown shopping centers. And I remember coming to Cleveland as he still as a kid with my family. And my mother tells me that my first reaction to Public Square, Cleveland, Ohio, was what a place this is. What a place this is. And I've always been inspired by cities themselves, traveling in all of the major cities throughout the United States, to get ideas and feels about what really makes for good urban, sound urban planning. I've been inspired by the cities throughout Europe, had the good fortune to study over in Europe in Luxembourg and really took to cities. And clearly the American cities have been influenced by the European cities, and these are the places that our parents and grandparents built and these are the places that we have a choice in the 21st century to either reinvest in, protect what we've built, protect what our forefathers and mothers have built... Or abandon them. And I think in this era, we are making the choice as a community to come back to our urban centers for a variety of reasons. They're fun. They're culturally enriching. They're efficient. They're exciting. They're dynamic. This is not anyhow town out there, this is Cleveland, Ohio. So I went in after studying in business school and in Europe to my... Miami of Ohio was my undergraduate and also had the opportunity to study in Luxembourg at the Miami University Center in Luxembourg. And that's where I really first drew my strong allegiances to cities themselves. We enjoyed going to Berlin and going to Paris and going to Barcelona. And as literal weekend daytrippers to places like Rome and experiencing the glory and the dynamism of the European cities. Again, which Cleveland is much influenced by in its make up here today. I then had the opportunity to do my graduate schooling right here on Euclid Avenue at the wonderful Levin College of Urban Affairs at Cleveland State University. Learning from some of the deans of urban planning, Norman Krumholtz, Hunter Morrison, and others who have really made this town a planning-friendly town, any town that thinks about its assets and plans around them. I've had the good fortune of being their successor as a planning director in Cleveland working on this project with the GCRTA, but now working in the University Circle as president of University Circle Inc., where we think the next Cleveland renaissance is occurring. We were recently in the New York Times, and it's great to see other cities, New York, Chicago, wherever else, celebrate what's happening in Cleveland, Ohio. But they were celebrating this resurgence and the headline was Resurgence Cleveland. The resurgence that's happening is no less than $3 billion of new investment, complementing things like the Euclid Corridor with projects like the Martin Luther King Boulevard Restoration Project, the Opportunity Corridor, which will be a vehicular corridor running south of Euclid Corridor connecting Akron to University Circle vis a vis 77, 55th, and 105th. It's also, though, the tremendous buildout that's happening, 500 million in the cultural institutions as we speak. The Museum of Art, a $250 million third phase capital expansion. Museum of Natural History is now onto its capital expansion. The Botanical Gardens and Severance Hall, both recently having completed their capital campaigns. The Institute of Art, Museum of Contemporary Art. It goes on and on. This is the Renaissance period for Cleveland, and a substantial new growth area is in University Circle, where 40,000 workers are making their day commutes every day. Our goal, though, is to build 1,000 homes around the Greater University Circle area so that workers can live and work in the same place. And that will incent them to be on this Euclid Corridor transit line, because not every trip, again, has to be from garage to garage. There's more experience and some more fun that can happen when somebody else is doing the driving or you're doing the walking.
Nina Gibans [00:16:50] Great. Okay. So... You talked about Public Square being great, talked about the University Circle being great. Are there buildings along the way that should never come down?
Chris Ronayne [00:17:09] Oh, I think so. I think that block by block, there are some historic gems. If you start downtown, one of my favorite buildings is the grand Arcade, the grand Euclid Arcade, built in the, again, the turn of the 20th century, more than a hundred years ago, in Cleveland's glory of buildout, when we were building and keeping up with places like Paris with the things that we were building here. So I think that the grand Arcade is arguably one of Cleveland's true American gems, a place that not every urban center in America has, and it's something we ought to celebrate. I am fascinated by the buildout of East 4th Street downtown, the restoration of the former Cleveland Opera House in the form now of the Pickwick and Frolic entertainment venue, and the restoration of the former Woolworth drugstore, now the form of House of Blues. These are wonderful buildings that the entertainment venue owners, the promoters are saying make for great concert venues because of the sound architectural design that was a part of the buildout of these buildings 100 years ago. So those are some of my favorites in the lower Euclid Corridor area. As you come up to the financial district in downtown Cleveland, no one can dispute the grandeur of the Ameritrust, former Cleveland Trust, rotunda at Euclid in East 9th at the epicenter of our financial district. This is a Tiffany glass dome structure that needs refurbishment and should be open to all the world to see. There is a terrific new buildout happening in Midtown, starting with Cleveland State University, the efforts to make what has historically been more of a concrete environment into more of a true walking-friendly campus on Cleveland State's campus. It's exciting what they're doing with the buildings as they build out toward Chester and Euclid and the campus in between. It makes it a place where you want to live around, not just be a day commuter to the university itself as you head through the Midtown area. I think the Agora concert hall is not just architecturally a gem for Cleveland, but just the stories that come out of that place, the, you know, the place of so many of the world renowned performers have played there at the Cleveland Agora. That's something that we need to celebrate. We need to celebrate new, new investments in the corridor like Pierre's Ice Cream as you head further east in the Midtown neighborhood, that they made an investment to stay in the neighborhood and build out a 21st century facility. Same with the Bearings Corporation in Euclid Corridor, lower Midtown area. It's exciting to see new buildout happening. And as you get, of course, to the east Midtown area and into University Circle, the explosive growth of the hospitals at the Cleveland Clinic and University Hospital building out to Euclid, to the project itself, and building out a job future for Cleveland. There's 40,000 workers working in the general University Circle area. But building wise, of course, two of my favorites on Euclid Avenue in University Circle itself are the beautiful Museum of Art and Severance Hall at East Boulevard and on Euclid. It is stunning, that gateway that you walk into when you arrive either by transit or by any other means into the University Circle area, when you see and you feel as if you're in Paris or San Francisco or any of the other picturesque urbane environments of the world. But two of my favorites have to be Severance Hall and the Museum of Art, just because of the way that they frame along with the Fine Arts Garden and the lagoon, the very, very picturesque setting of the University Circle itself. And then to look over the landscape at some of the new construction like the Weatherhead Peter Lewis building. That's a completely different departure from the traditional progressive design of the twenties and is a new design that's creating a new conversation unto itself in University Circle. It's exciting what's happening throughout this five-mile corridor of Cleveland, Ohio, and you're starting to see the main street of Cleveland's historic Euclid Avenue coming back.
Nina Gibans [00:21:16] You've got a whole kiosk to yourself. I think. Those are those are very important thoughts that we have not had in such a summary form from others. And it's because of the overview that you have and supervisory view that you have had. Have there have been particularly high moments as far as public or private sector coming together on this because that's what it takes? So you want to discuss that?
Chris Ronayne [00:21:52] Sure.
Nina Gibans [00:21:53] In the early days, it was Tom Johnson.
Chris Ronayne [00:21:54] Mm hmm.
Nina Gibans [00:21:55] We know that. But what about this resurgence and who, who in the public sector really needs credit for that?
Chris Ronayne [00:22:02] Well, I think that this has been a shared community effort with the Euclid Corridor Project. There is the beauty of this project is it touches so many neighborhoods, it touches so many institutions, so many business owners, so many property owners and so many neighborhood residents. Everybody wants to see Euclid Avenue come back. They tell the stories of shopping on Euclid Avenue when there were seven major department stores downtown. And they tell the stories of shopping uptown in University Circle when there were five major movie theaters within five blocks of East 105th Street. They tell the story of the experience that they had with their parents visiting University Circle or with their children visiting the downtown. And so there's so many people that Euclid Avenue itself has touched the lives of. There is certainly champions throughout the history of this project. You mentioned Tom Johnson. Tom Johnson was Cleveland's premier transit advocate. He was elected mayor of this major city when it was the sixth largest city in America. He was elected mayor on his advocacy of the three-cent transit fare. He was a true and tried believer that people should have equitable access to transit and that that was the people's choice of a transportation mover. So Tom Johnson certainly helped us get on the transportation progressive cutting edge for Cleveland, Ohio, I think through the years then, we went through a long lagging period where we were more or less dominated by other transportation interests than transit itself. We went through a very dark sixty or seventy years in Cleveland, Ohio, when we, you know, we're still trying to get to our next venture on the corridor. But recently I would credit the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority for seeing this project through. I think that the state has been supportive also and it is exciting when the Ohio Department of Transportation, which you often think highways and roadways and not so often about transit, has put some money into this project. I think that there are some heroes in Washington that have helped with this, elected officials, probably too many to name, that have helped with this. But I think when you look at the project, there are some local just sort of people who helped frame this, the people who came together and said, let's work out a bike lane system for students that want to be active in this corridor.
Nina Gibans [00:24:29] And who were those people?
Chris Ronayne [00:24:31] Oh, boy, you put me on the spot to talk about the people who shaped that. I think, I think Joe Calabrese from the RTA deserves a bit of credit for this. I think that the the City of Cleveland under the Campbell administration deserves credit for pushing the issue of the bike lanes. I think that the state, particularly Steven LaTourette as a congressman, was helpful in bringing us money to this project. I think that there are a variety of Cleveland council members who helped with this project. And I think that, you know, if you start naming too many names, you exclude too many because there have been so many activists on this project. I think that the neighborhood development corporations from the Downtown Cleveland Partnership, originally, Historic Gateway neighborhood, the Midtown Corporation and University Circle itself were major conduits. They worked with the architects, they worked with the plan designers from the offices of Robert Madison to Wilbur Smith and Associates to GCRTA itself. They saw this through, bit by bit, piece by piece. I think that there's a lot of credit to go around with this project in terms of the financing, but also the neighborhood inputs on design. I think Cleveland Public Art deserves credit for really pursuing the public interest in public art that associates with public infrastructure. When we do major hundreds of millions of dollars of projects, they need not be gray, bland, dank, dark projects. They can be exciting. And I think that the Cleveland Public Art nonprofit corporation deserves a lot of credit of pushing that envelope forward. The project has many champions, and I think at the end of the day, one of the things that is exciting in the downtown area, and what we hope will see more of uptown, is an attention to the details after the project has been built. And what I mean by that is one of the great things that's happened in the last decade in Cleveland is the advent of the Downtown Cleveland Alliance and the business improvement district in downtown. This is a group that will be committed and it is of, by, and for property owners who have a vested interest in seeing the curbside improvements that are made actually sort of stay maintained. So they are putting money supplemental to their current property taxes, an additional special assessment on themselves, to pay for maintenance workers, to pay for safety ambassadors, to pay for marketing, so that we can keep this place clean, safe, and attractive. We'll be trying to do that throughout the corridor. That's been the success story in Denver on 16th Street, where you have a pedestrian- and transit-friendly urban mall that is really, really high functioning because there's a business improvement district in place that we don't just make this investment and walk away from it. This $200 million in new streetscape and new Main Street monies, that's going to really polish up not just the transit system itself, but the curb sides from the planters to the sidewalks to the public art that adorns the corridor. You don't just make that as a onetime investment and leave the maintenance to somebody else. You need to come up with a sophisticated maintenance plan, and that's what the essence of a business improvement district is. It's what brought back Times Square. It's what brought back Center City Philadelphia. And it's what should help maintain and keep promotable and attractive the downtown and University Circle and everything in between.
Nina Gibans [00:27:56] So when I think transit, I should think of Denver, which I'm familiar with, and maybe Portland, which is where transit is, right at the restaurant door, practically, on one of the streets and so forth.
Chris Ronayne [00:28:11] It's amazing the diversity of cities throughout the United States and the world that have succeeded, by and large, because of smart transit programs. I think that Portland is a great example, a midsized city, a city actually about the size of Cleveland, Ohio, today, that has a tremendous ridership on its transit program and has actually been able to build in a transit-oriented development environment around transit. So the transit, as we hope the Euclid Corridor Project does, is leveraging housing development. Beacon Place in the University Circle and Fairfax neighborhoods of Cleveland have been built, and now Villas of Woodhaven, the second phase, in anticipation of the transit. You can walk right outside your door and within a matter of feet you are on transit and on your way downtown. That's been a success story in Portland. It ought to be a model for Cleveland. I think also you can look to Washington, D.C., the nation's capital, as a leader in transit. One of the successful North American transit centers is Washington, D.C., itself with its tube system. It's on par with London and Paris. I think also that Denver, with a main street, 16th Street, very much has an integrated, holistic approach to a main street development that's anchored by transit itself. And now you're starting to see transit systems pick up in southern cities of the United States that have taken their cues from the great early transit-friendly towns like Boston in New York and the New England states and work their way now down. You're starting to see transit New Start projects in places all over the map, from Charlotte to Phoenix to San Diego. So, there's exciting examples all over the map. And what needs to happen in a place like Cleveland is we need to stay competitive on the transportation side. We need to make it consumer-friendly for our everyday workers and residents who are here in Cleveland. We also need to put forth a competitive package for any visitor who might, as a convention delegate, visit the downtown, stay in a downtown hotel, but might want to get out on a Saturday or Sunday for a mobile workshop or a day trip visit to University Circle. So this Euclid Corridor presents a prime time opportunity to promote that dual package for the visitor and enhance their visitor experience here in Cleveland.
Nina Gibans [00:30:20] Right. So the models are all around us. The technology is maybe innovative because every time you do it, there's new technology that just keeps, keeps coming.
Chris Ronayne [00:30:32] Right.
Nina Gibans [00:30:32] Keeps coming and coming.
Chris Ronayne [00:30:33] Early on, you talk again about some of the folks who are the early shapers of this project. There was a delegation from the City of Cleveland, Cuyahoga County, the Northeast Ohio Areawide Coordinating Agency, NOACA, and the State of Ohio, that all descended down to Curitiba, Brazil, to see in this South American country how they're doing it with an explosive population growth in Curitiba and a transit project that is really the spine of their new growth strategy. So we've looked at even down to South America for our cues on progressive transportation design. Again, these are cities that took their early cues from Europe, but now are looking all over the world at transit models, both in the domestic United States and in South America and in Asia. We want people to come back and find their urban center. This continuous outmigration and urban sprawl, that sprawl has afflicted our center cities. People are beginning to say enough is enough. I'm tired of being two hours in congestion to and from work every day. I'm tired of paying the gas prices. Well, this is the new alternative. This is the antidote to urban sprawl, live, work, play, recreate, and commute all within a fairly dense urban environment. It's possible. It's doable. The city of Cleveland today sells one out of every three homes as a townhome or condominium, which literally reflect this mood of density and wanting to be in an efficient environment where your time is a premium. You'd rather spend—some people would rather spend—their time in the education centers or the arts centers, or simply spend a little more time with their families than spend all their time stuck in traffic.
Nina Gibans [00:32:16] What about greenspace? What about space like the little Eastman Garden [inaudible]...
Chris Ronayne [00:32:23] Sure, sure.
Nina Gibans [00:32:26] [inaudible] that's the favorite of people who come here and who live here.
Chris Ronayne [00:32:30] Boston's success story has been its pocket parks. New York City, on a per person per square mile basis, has more greenspace than any city in the United States. Those are places that you may not first
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