Abstract
CSU professor Beth Cagan describes the significant changes that have occurred in Cleveland since she and her husband moved from New York City in the 1970s. Her honest descriptions and criticisms of the city shed light on the values that she believes need to be endorsed in order to foster city improvement.
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Interviewee
Cagan, Beth (interviewee)
Interviewer
Hons, Justin (interviewer); Yanoshik-Wing, Emma (interviewer)
Project
Ingenuity Fest
Date
7-14-2006
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
24 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Beth Cagan Interview, 14 July 2006" (2006). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 905005.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/286
Transcript
Beth Cagan [00:00:00] How does that sound?
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:00:04] Okay, could you just start off by saying your name and today’s date for us?
Beth Cagan [00:00:12] Oh, I see. So you have it? Yes. Okay. Thank you. It’s Beth Kagan. And July 14th.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:00:19] Now, what brought you to Ingenuity?
Beth Cagan [00:00:22] Well, to be perfectly honest, I’m here because my husband has his show here, so I’m here as a spouse. But I also had heard a lot about Ingenuity from friends who went last year and just said it was fantastic. So I wanted to come. I would have come anyway.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:00:39] Have you had the opportunity to walk around yet?
Beth Cagan [00:00:42] Very little, I have to say. I was here yesterday, but mostly sitting around here and today a little bit went and got some food, but not a whole lot else.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:00:52] Did you make it to the-
Beth Cagan [00:00:54] What was the- Oh, the drum. Yes, yes. Oh, it was wonderful. It was just wonderful. I had heard about this composer from friends before, and I was very, you know, eager to hear him or his work. And the idea of a thousand drums, you know, a symphony for a thousand drums was so enticing. There weren’t- I don’t think there were a thousand drums. I think maybe there were a few hundred drums, but still all these people with drums of different kinds on Public Square, they were arranged. You know, the bongos and the congas were all sort of on one side, and the drum sets and other things. I’m not a drummer. I don’t know that much about it, but it was rehearsed and planned, and I’ve never seen or heard so many drums together and just drums making the music. And then the composer, who’s Egyptian, an old man, he’s 85 years old, and he’s wearing this beautiful robe, I think, from Egypt, golden robe. And he’s standing on top of a sort of elevated platform, and he’s conducting it and sort of saying things, you know, what to do and chanting. And then there’s. On the. On the ground floor is a young man who’s the director of it and working with him, who’s sort of running around the area and giving signals to the musicians to make it louder and to do, you know, here’s the rhythm and, you know, all this stuff. And he had- He was a great person to watch because he had this wonderful movements. You know, it was like a dancer. And it was just thrilling. It was absolutely thrilling. I was really irritated. I- Don’t you delete things right from this, but in the Plain Dealer, the Metro section had a cover picture about this. It was a picture of two people, you know, a woman standing up like this and a guy drumming. But what it missed was all the people. You know, you had a huge effect. It wasn’t, you know, limited to two participants. It was a very misleading picture.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:03:09] How was it spread out? Was it spread out in a circle? Or was it more like a symphony?
Beth Cagan [00:03:14] It was hard to tell because you don’t have an aerial view or something, but it seemed to be- They used the contours of the area so that people were. It was kind of a circular organization, as far as I could tell.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:03:34] What other- Do you come downtown often?
Beth Cagan [00:03:37] Well, I teach at Cleveland State, so I don’t know if that counts as downtown. It’s close. But I will say this. When I first started teaching there, which was in 1974, I’ve been there a long time. I was really happy that it was so close to downtown. And I often would, you know, lunch hour or something, take a walk down to Public Square or walk around, you know, shop or just look at the stores. And that’s diminished a lot because of many things, but partly because it’s been very depressing to walk around here. So many stores are closed. There are very few people on the street. The people who are here look kind of poor and a little deranged. And, you know, it’s not a vibrant downtown. It’s really, really very bad. And so I think having this here is really important. I think it gives a different feeling for the place. Even though, you know, it’s artificial and it won’t always be like this, but it’s still very attractive.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:04:48] Are there other festivals or kind of gatherings that you’ve attended or in Greater Cleveland?
Beth Cagan [00:05:03] The answer is yes, but I’m trying to remember specifically, you know, street fairs. We live in the Coventry area, and so we always participate in that. And I have, throughout the years, been in the old, you know, when it was really a street fair. The shake- [crosstalk] Oh, go ahead.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:05:22] I was just gonna- Can you talk a little bit about the changes to Coventry?
Beth Cagan [00:05:27] Well, the street fair changes. I can speak to it, because that’s what this is about. It used to be a much bigger affair, a kind of a, more of a general community event and drew a lot of people. And it was kind of- How can I put it? Outside of being bigger, it was more varied in what it offered. You know, different kinds of foods, different kind of people, booths. It just was really huge. And my understanding is that it was stopped because it was people. The city leaders felt it was getting out of hand. And there had been some drunkenness and fighting, and, you know, police had to be called in. And so the ones that they have now are nice, but they’re much more family-oriented and kind of pleasant but sweet, but not challenging in any way, and not like this. So I can understand why they didn’t want to take the risk, but it is kind of a loss. But Hessler Street Fair, you know, that’s always been a big thing for me. And Parade in the Circle. Actually, I’ve only been there once, but not because I didn’t want to. It just didn’t work out.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:06:59] Your use of the word- Can you just describe your use of the word challenging?
Beth Cagan [00:07:07] Well, challenging in the sense that it’s- It’s not predictable, it’s not all safe. And, you know, I know what that is, but things are a little bit different. Has more of an edge. What would be, you know, some music that’s, you know, I don’t particularly like necessarily, but, you know, it’s louder than I’d like or, you know, but I know it attracts people and so therefore I’m willing to listen to it or. I don’t know. That’s really what it is. No.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:07:46] I was here while Justin was talking to your husband. Can you tell me what your first impression of Cleveland was?
Beth Cagan [00:07:57] Well, we came here in 1970 from New York City. The only other place I’d lived in was in Bloomington, Indiana, where I went to graduate school for two years. So I really was a New Yorker. But I kind of didn’t want to stay in New York. I wanted to live to someplace a little bit more like Bloomington, a little bit more like a smaller town or a smaller city. So I was attracted to Cleveland for that reason. I’d only been here once before for a women’s liberation conference. And, you know, I thought, wow, they’re interesting people here, even though they’re not New Yorkers. You know, it’s not a campus school. I mean, a campus city. You know, it’s just in sort of a, more of a blue-collar, nitty gritty place. But that was attractive to me, the Cleveland itself, you know, it doesn’t because I’m a New Yorker. And for me a city is buildings and, you know, no grass and trees and this sort of looks like just, you know, it’s a small city. You know, people live in houses, which is for me unusual. But I like that it’s attractive. The impression was, you know, here’s a city, this is 1970, it’s in decline. It does not have a great reputation. It’s struggling, but there’s something nice about it. And it’s livable. You can manage it. It’s not so huge like New York that it can swallow you up. You can get to know where things are and travel around without a great deal of difficulty.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:09:53] You mentioned coming here and being a city in decline. Can you talk to me a little bit about how you’ve seen the city living sway or change? Have you seen kind of decline in consistency or just-
Beth Cagan [00:10:17] Well, in some areas. Some things, you know, very visible things. It’s- The decline has just continued. And, you know, coming down, walking downtown Euclid Avenue, it’s just a disaster. The closing of all the big stores, the terrible impact that, what do you call it, the, you know, movement away from the city has caused. [And I know Ohio is like the leader in this, you know, edge cities and so forth, suburbanization and just the disregard for downtown and for feeling that a downtown is part of your city. And I think it’s not- That’s partly a result of the acceleration of, you know, industry leaving and people leaving, but it’s something that was always there. I teach at Cleveland State, and I remember talking to a student many years ago who grew up in Euclid. He’d been to Cleveland twice in his life, once for a Browns game, once for an Indians game. His parents, and they’d been to Canada, but his parents never thought that it would be interesting for him to come to Cleveland. Cleveland was, you know, dirty, dangerous. And I think a lot of it has to do with racism. I think that’s been a sort of a real issue for Cleveland and its decline and its lack of identity, lack of people sort of feeling like they belong to it. I’m rambling here, but what else has it gone? Well, I guess, I mean, there are some areas and some things that have always been nice in Cleveland and have been maintained, but they haven’t been nourished in the ways that they need to do. I’ve become active in the birding community. I like to go bird watching and stuff, and nature’s always been very important for me. And Cleveland has this wonderful, wonderful resource, which is the Metroparks, you know, the Emerald Necklace. It’s just fantastic, but- And it’s used a lot, but I don’t know that it’s appreciated that much by the community as a whole. And I think the absence of green space and accessible space on the lake is just, has always, you know, certainly since I’ve been here, but, you know, forever has been a terrible loss. Terrible. Not a loss, because we didn’t have it really, you know, as soon as it was developed, that industry gobbled up the lakefront and rich people gobbled it up. And there’s just very little, not just appreciation, but ability to use the lakefront, to make use of that as a wonderful, wonderful quality that we have to attract people here and to give positive experiences to the people who live here.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:13:25] What about the area at kind of the opening of Doan Brook and the lake? Is that an area that’s returning?
Beth Cagan [00:13:34] Yes, yes. That’s really great. That’s wonderful. And there are many people who are involved in trying to bring about some changes that will make things more open for the community, make nature more available and so forth. Yes, that’s great. And the whole effort to save Dike 14 and some plans for the city to develop green space along the lake. But it’s all sort of up in the air and could go in ways that I think would be very unfortunate. Like with Dike 14, which I would like to keep as sort of a nature preserve, maybe with some paths and, you know, things to allow people to use it better, that might still might turn into a golf course or, you know, condos or, you know, I mean, the problem is that the mentality is if it’s not bringing in revenue, it’s not worth anything. It’s just empty land. So let’s develop it with something that we can make money off of. And I just think that’s a terrible, terrible attitude. But there are groups like Eco-City Cleveland, you know, that working on that, and nature centers and stuff.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:14:52] So have you seen. Since the early ’70s, and I know, being active socially, have you seen much change or much, I guess, variation in people’s involvement, in the levels of involvement?
Beth Cagan [00:15:13] Yes. I think, you know, a lot of the stuff we’ve been talking about, you know, Dike 14 and the Doan Brook. I don’t- To my knowledge, that wasn’t going on, you know, in the ’70s or even the ’80s. It was, I guess, part of just a resurgence of interest in- Or not resurgence, because I don’t know if anything was there before, but, you know, interest in, on the part of a lot of people, that these are valuable resources and we gotta look at them. So I feel more hopeful because of that. You know, citizen involvement is key to making those changes. When.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:15:59] Just a couple more questions. When you have people come in from out of town-
Beth Cagan [00:16:05] Mm. That’s- [laughs]
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:16:06] Where in Cleveland do you like to take them? Are there any kind of secret spots?
Beth Cagan [00:16:11] Well, I don’t- These are not going to be that secret. I mean, the first place that I think of is the West Side Market, because it’s not secret, but it’s wonderful. And you know, people from all over the country. I mean, there are not many places like that.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:16:29] When did you first start going to the West Side?
Beth Cagan [00:16:31] Oh, it was pretty soon after we came to Cleveland. I don’t remember exactly, but, you know, we live in Cleveland Heights, so it’s not our regular shopping. And you know, there can be months that go by where we don’t go at all. But we do certainly think of it as a special place to take people. And it’s so much fun to go there.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:16:53] Have you seen any changes?
Beth Cagan [00:16:56] Well, when we first came, I believe it was when we first came, there was a plan to get rid of it. They were going to demolish it. They meaning, you know, the city, city fathers, you know, whoever was in charge. They just saw, I guess there was pressure maybe from the grocery stores or something, but they were going to get rid of it. I mean, this treasure. And then there was a community opposition and they maintained it and they built some new facilities. It’s a lot nicer now looking, and it’s easier to shop there than it was. So it’s been improved a lot and I think it’s now quite stable and I think everybody’s proud of it and would not want it to leave. And the fact that it unites so many different groups of people. You go there and it’s like little international area. It’s really wonderful. The other places, we usually take them to a Metropark if we want to do some, you know, nature stuff, we take them down in the Flats, usually on a little road trip, you know, driving tour around the Flats to, you know, point out, oh, this used to be a steel mill and this used to be a factory and this used to be a thriving area. This used to be a great restaurant and, you know, it’s a lot of “used to be.” It’s kind of sad, but it’s still physically a very interesting place to look at. Sometimes ride around the, or walk around in the Ohio City area, you know, the Near West Side, because of the really interesting housing there. Sometimes we’ll take them on a tour of the poor areas in Cleveland, mostly on the East Side. You know, terrible poverty, rundown housing. Although now it’s a little harder to find them because there are so many new houses. That’s pretty impressive, actually. But we take them to the poor areas and then we’d go up to the, you know, rich areas in, you know, Shaker Heights and Bratenahl and stuff and, you know, see the contrast of how people live. That always is an interesting one. But the Cuyahoga River and that, that area is very, very impressive and we like to do that.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:19:19] Do you- I know from before that, when you all moved here, you moved to East Cleveland.
Beth Cagan [00:19:24] Well, first to Cleveland Heights, then to East Cleveland. Yeah, then to Cleveland Heights.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:19:28] Where you lived in East Cleveland, do you still kind of drive by?
Beth Cagan [00:19:33] Yeah. Oh, God, that’s a- Yeah. We lived for a year on Chapman Road near Euclid. And then it was still a pretty, you know, I mean, it was a poor community, was becoming more and more impoverished, more and more Black. But it was- There were restaurants and stores around. There was one particular restaurant we were very close to and sort of a popular place, you know, to eat sort of, you know, regular food. And when we hadn’t been back for years, we lived there only a year. And then we moved into the Cleveland Heights. And when we did go back, it was absolutely shocking, the number of boarded-up buildings and demolished- Well, nothing actually demolished because they don’t demolish. They just let it sit there. And very few stores left. It was just- Oh, it’s- It’s a painful place to visit now. It’s really terrible.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:20:34] When was the last time you went by?
Beth Cagan [00:20:37] Oh, just last week. You know, I drove somewhere and it was really horrible.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:20:48] We’ve finished our 15. Is there anything else that you want to tell us? Anything?
Beth Cagan [00:20:58] Well, I’m not that sure of the purposes of this and how you’re going to use it, so it’s hard to, you know, to add anything. Is there you want to give me some input or does-
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:21:11] Pretty much, we’re just- Because it’s such a small amount of time, we’re just kind of getting people’s impressions and experiences.
Beth Cagan [00:21:19] Yeah. Okay. I would say- I mean, I like Cleveland. You know, my husband would much rather go back to New York, but I would rather live here if it only were closer to New York because our daughters live there. For me, that would be ideal. But this, you know, even with all its problems, it’s a really interesting town. People are nice and friendly. It has some really nice qualities, some interesting neighborhoods and, and so forth. And I would also add this, that we, unlike a lot of East Siders, we spend a lot of time on the West Side and we don’t have that sort of sense that your boundaries- And we hear about that a lot and apparently it still exists. And that’s appalling because the West Side is really a nice, interesting place. And particularly the older sections of the city, I think are really very, very nice to visit. Well, the number one thing is do something about the lake. Just make it- I mean, I don’t have the specifics, but I could tell you where to go. I think Eco-City has some wonderful ideas about lakefront. I don’t even want to use the word development because that usually connotes the wrong approach. Right? But just to- I was just in Chicago visiting a friend and I at a conference, and, you know, we were at Loyola University, their lakeside campus, and, you know, two blocks away, you walk on the beach and you’re right at the- And it’s there for you. It’s there for the city citizens. Here you stand from a distance, and maybe you get a glimpse of the water, and it’s just- Unless you own a boat, you’re really shut out, and that’s just appalling. And it would need to have some kind of connection more with this city so that people would even think of the lake. I don’t think most people think of the lake, and it’s such a great resource that we- We must do something. So that would be my major priority. Okay, thank you. It’s been fun.
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