Abstract
Joan and James Orosz were born in Cleveland in 1942 and grew up on the city's east side. This 2009 interview with the husband and wife deals with the the music they listened to growing up as well as race relations. The two remember listening to the ethnic music their parents favored before developing a liking for rock and roll and R & B. Joan and James also talk about their experiences growing up in Cleveland, describing the schools they went to, the neighborhoods they lived in, and the kinds of things they did for fun. The second half of the interview focuses on their thoughts and memories about race relations in the city. James remembers the "blockbusting" that took place in the Buckeye-Woodland neighborhood he lived in, and both recall the Hough Riots. They express their thoughts about why racial tensions existed, and conclude with some considerations on the role that rock and roll music had in bringing people of different races together.
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Interviewee
Orosz, Joan (interviewee); Orosz, James (interviewee)
Interviewer
Aritonovich, Dana (interviewer)
Project
Rock and Roll
Date
11-8-2009
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
59 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Joan and James Orosz Interview, 2009" (2009). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 200006.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/29
Transcript
Joan Orosz [00:00:00] As long as it's not video, we're fine.
Dana Aritonovich [00:00:02] I can get my camera.
Joan Orosz [00:00:03] We can do that because I know making a documentary eventually. No, no, no, no.
James Orosz [00:00:07] No.
Joan Orosz [00:00:12] Slurping. I want to know where that Christmas tree came from. That one.
Dana Aritonovich [00:00:21] Okay, you ready?
James Orosz [00:00:23] Yep.
Dana Aritonovich [00:00:23] I'm gonna ask you each to introduce yourself first, and then we'll go from there.
James Orosz [00:00:27] Okay? Ready?
Joan Orosz [00:00:28] Let's go.
Dana Aritonovich [00:00:30] Why'd you start it already? You told me.
Joan Orosz [00:00:31] I said.
Dana Aritonovich [00:00:32] I didn't say start it yet. Well, let's go. Okay. Okay. We'll start with you each introducing yourself. Tell us your name, where you live and what you do now.
Joan Orosz [00:00:41] Joan Orosz, live in Solon and semi-retired, if you can believe that.
James Orosz [00:00:52] Yeah.
Joan Orosz [00:00:52] What's your name?
James Orosz [00:00:54] James Orosz, Sr. Still working auto-body repair business in Solon.
Dana Aritonovich [00:01:05] And Joan, where did you- Where did you grow up? What year were you born and where did you grow up?
Joan Orosz [00:01:09] I grew up in 1940- I was born in 1942, and basically I grew up in Maple Heights.
Dana Aritonovich [00:01:20] And James, what year were you born and where'd you grow up?
James Orosz [00:01:24] Born October 1942. Buckeye and Woodland area in the very young ages. And then Harvard and Lee in the teen ages.
Dana Aritonovich [00:01:41] And what were your families like? Siblings? And what did your parents do?
Joan Orosz [00:01:47] I had one sister and my father worked for U.S. Steel. My mother worked part-time at the Navy for a few years and that was it. Otherwise, she was just a housewife. And that's the only sister I had. And no other siblings?
James Orosz [00:02:11] Two brothers, two sisters. I'm the oldest. And what'd your dad do? My dad did. He was pretty much a handyman in the mechanical car repair business. Could do a little bit of everything in those kind of car days, which is different than today's days. And my mother kind of took care of the kids.
Dana Aritonovich [00:02:50] And Jim, what kind of school. What were your schools like? What was the makeup of the school? Were they integrated? Was it.
Joan Orosz [00:03:02] I'll tell you. My grade school, I went. I went to Saint Wenceslas up to the sixth grade, and then from there I went to the mid white side and we had Black in our classes. Never thought anything of it. I mean, it wasn't as it is now that it's brought to everybody's attention, you know, but back then we just never thought about it.
Dana Aritonovich [00:03:31] And James, what about your schools?
James Orosz [00:03:33] I went to Catholic School for 12 grades. St. Elizabeth's in the Buckeye and Woodland area, and then St. Henry's in the Harvard and Lee area. And then high school was Chanel High School, first graduating class, which Was a unique experience because we never had senior classmates. They started the school with us. We were the ninth grade. We became the 10th grade. Then they got a ninth grade. We became the 11th grade and the ninth grade became the 10th grade. So they got another ninth grade till we graduated. So we never knew what it was like to have senior classmen above us. And, you know, it was a great experience, which doesn't happen too much in anybody's lifetime, really. Let's say start a school today. Some schools may start a school and you have all four grades. We started school with just the ninth grade.
Dana Aritonovich [00:04:40] And what were your schools integrated at all? They were Catholic schools.
James Orosz [00:04:43] I know these days we had very hardly any Blacks. I mean, it may. I don't think we have Blacks until 10th grade or, you know, first grade. I can't remember anybody being Black in our classroom.
Dana Aritonovich [00:05:03] But you had a couple in 10th grade, 10th grade.
James Orosz [00:05:05] I think you could. If the grade, you know, the next year was 10th and 9th and somebody moved out of the 10th grade, they could take in a 10th grader along with the 9th graders. And I can't remember if they came in the ninth grade or not. There was, say, three or four different classrooms, you know, like, we started off with nine A, B, C, and D and wound up in the 10th grade with only 10 A, B, and C. So we lost one whole grade of kids that year that either went to another school or for some reason didn't return to that school. But very few Blacks, maybe two that I could remember. I don't think they were in my classroom.
Dana Aritonovich [00:06:03] And what kind of people did you hang out with? Who were your friends?
James Orosz [00:06:11] Mainly the sports persons, you know, people. I played some football and basketball in high school, grade school, played football and basketball also. So mostly today, I guess the term is you hang around with the jocks.
Dana Aritonovich [00:06:37] What about you? Who were your friends?
Joan Orosz [00:06:39] Just kids I went to school with. Nobody special. You know, I mean, just kids that were in my class, a couple of neighbors that were in my class.
Dana Aritonovich [00:06:53] And what kind of things did you guys do when you hung out?
Joan Orosz [00:06:57] Played baseball on the street. I mean, that was allowed back then. You could play baseball instead of diamonds in the middle of the street. And you'd stop playing when a car came by and you'd let him go by and he went back out and started playing baseball, you know, so that was basically it. I mean, just go up to the shopping centers, you know, and go shop and walk around. That was it.
Dana Aritonovich [00:07:23] And James, what about you? Did you guys just kind of hang out and play sports. Did you guys do anything else?
James Orosz [00:07:29] Well, in school you hung out with those friends. And when you came home, you had your neighborhood friends, which the neighborhood I happened to live in had a ton of male around my age, more so than very few females in the neighborhood. So we had nine or ten boys that we became. You know, today they probably would say we were a gang, but we weren't. But when you walk down the street with 10, 11 kids, it's more quoted as a gang, you know, nowadays. Yeah, I mean, at that time, too, there was a lot of. Everybody was smoking. So you were smoking underage, you know,
Dana Aritonovich [00:08:20] I'm making sure I make a note of that.
James Orosz [00:08:22] But the guys that didn't smoke were the. The school guys of baseball players, football players and basketball players. But the neighborhood guys were all smokers pretty much.
Dana Aritonovich [00:08:38] So what. What kind of music did you hear? Maybe if your parents played music around the house. What's that first kind of music you remember listening to? And how old were you?
Joan Orosz [00:08:51] Told you mind warp. God, I don't remember music at all. Polkas, okay, Polkas. And mostly I listen to a lot of music. My mom would listen to the radio, too, but I don't remember what she listened to. But I would play records because we had the 45s and the 78s, which don't exist anymore. And. I listened to a lot of Vaughn Monroe, which nobody ever will probably remember. I loved one of his songs. I would play it over and over and over again. And then teenage years was rock and roll. And Elvis, of course. Elvis, he was the greatest and still is. He will always be a king.
Dana Aritonovich [00:09:52] What's the first memory you have of Elvis? When did you first become aware of Elvis?
Joan Orosz [00:09:55] When I saw him on Ed Sullivan. So they wouldn't show him all. I was mad.
Dana Aritonovich [00:10:05] And what was it about Elvis that made an impression on you?
Joan Orosz [00:10:07] He was gorgeous. He was gorgeous. I mean, and I don't care. Even when he got fat, he was still gorgeous. I mean, his singing and everybody, they made fun of him because of his movies and stuff. But you know what? He could still sing. He could still sing. He was a fantastic singer and performer. Even if you look at his movies, they weren't that bad. You know, they were silly, but they weren't bad. I met Chubby Checker.
Dana Aritonovich [00:10:40] You met him?
Joan Orosz [00:10:40] Yes.
Dana Aritonovich [00:10:41] Really?
Joan Orosz [00:10:41] Yes, I did.
Dana Aritonovich [00:10:42] Where did you meet him?
Joan Orosz [00:10:43] In Wildwood, New Jersey.
James Orosz [00:10:44] Huh.
Dana Aritonovich [00:10:45] How'd that happen?
Joan Orosz [00:10:46] I went on vacation and he was singing in a bar that we went to. And he was on stage and we happened to be there and I met him.
Dana Aritonovich [00:10:57] And what was that like?
Joan Orosz [00:10:58] It was fantastic. I never met an entertainer before.
Dana Aritonovich [00:11:01] How old were you when they had.
Joan Orosz [00:11:07] Maybe 21. Somewhere around 21, 20, 19. I don't know. It was. I had to be older. I was drinking, so I had to be over 21.
Dana Aritonovich [00:11:23] Okay. And James, what about you? What's your earliest memory of music?
James Orosz [00:11:30] I have old memory of the early days of the Hungarian neighborhoods. Both my parents were Hungarian and we lived in the double, and my grandmother lived upstairs. That was my father's mother. My mother's mother lived across the street. She lived in a family house that had four suites to it. So this was her second marriage. Her first husband had died and she had married this gentleman. And his wife had passed away. And his family, sons, and mostly sons were living in that house. And they lived there like, you know, that's how you did it in those days. I think my mother's sister, in the early age, when I was an infant, probably lived next door at the same time. My mother, my father's sister, lived in the house behind us. And this house was a single. The front house was a double. So they lived in the. In the back house. And being that this was a Hungarian neighborhood, Hungarian music was always, you know, around Sunday I would wake my parents up playing Hungarian csárdáses. In the morning I'd get up and put the records on the record player. Of course, I don't think they appreciated it. To hear a csárdás first thing in the morning, it gets you up. But I did like the Hungarian music. It's similar to polkas and things like that. And there was Hungarian clubs. Everybody kind of belonged to either this club or that club where they socialized with. And they would have these Hungarian dances as a traditional event, you know, where everybody would get dressed up in a Hungarian costume and do this csárdás, which was a real big to do thing. You had to go either making a uniform or rent one or whatever, you know. And that was in the early days. And then when we moved to Harvard and Lee time, that was the 50s and 60s music. But, you know, four, five, six years old was Hungarian. And then rock and roll after that in the early teens.
Dana Aritonovich [00:14:40] And what's the first more popular music that you remember? If there's any artists that you remember hearing.
James Orosz [00:14:52] In the Harvard Lee area, they had some halls. They weren't very big, but they would hold maybe 100 people or something. There was a store in the front and then this big hall in the back. And I think it was Bobby Vinton or somebody like that. I can't. He was a not a known person. And these small promoters were taking him around to neighborhood places where they could get a haul. And so Friday night, that was the first, you know, time I ever. Probably maybe 14 years old at that time. And went and seen. And he sang rock and roll music to me. He was a hit. He was very. Was the kind of music we all liked. So enjoyed that. Then, of course, after that, it was Elvis Presley, same as Joan. Seen him on television.
Dana Aritonovich [00:16:04] And what other artists either one of you do you remember seeing in those early days on tv? Because I know TV played a big role in promoting this new music, especially to young people. Who else made an impression on you at that time?
Joan Orosz [00:16:13] The Beatles, which I hated. I don't know if I can say that.
Dana Aritonovich [00:16:18] You can say whatever you want.
Joan Orosz [00:16:19] I never liked them. And they were big and I never did like them, but they were very big. And I remember seeing them. The other group that came from Monkees. That's right, The Monkees. I told you my memory is bad. Oh, and I met The Temptations.
Dana Aritonovich [00:16:40] Oh, that's when I was playing in the car.
Joan Orosz [00:16:42] I love The Temptations. And they were the nicest people.
Dana Aritonovich [00:16:48] How did you get to The Temptations?
Joan Orosz [00:16:49] Well, I worked for RCA Records.
Dana Aritonovich [00:16:51] Oh, okay. Well, let's talk about that. How did you. How did you get to RCA Records?
Joan Orosz [00:16:58] Okay. Well, I started out with RCA Whirlpool Main Mainline. And it was owned by the Shipley Brothers. And I worked up in the accounting department. That's where I met one of my best friends. So we've been friends for over 40 years. And then I transferred down to the recording area of it, which they had all demo records. And I worked down there in the. In the distribution of demo records. And there was a huge warehouse where all the demos were kept. In fact, I've got some. Some of the albums. And I do have an album signed by the original Temptations. It was a demo album, which I have. And they were the nicest people. And Frank Sinatra Jr. came in and he was the nastiest person in the world. Trying to think who else came in there.
Dana Aritonovich [00:17:49] What city was this in?
Joan Orosz [00:17:50] In Cleveland? Yeah, it was right off Lake. Lake. Is that Lakeside Jim over there? Lakeside.
James Orosz [00:17:55] Okay, Downtown Cleveland.
Joan Orosz [00:17:57] Yeah, 30th and Lakeside. That's where it used to be. They're no longer there, but that's what it was. Owned by the Shipley Brothers. And. And it. It was. It was an experience for me. It really was a good experience. But A lot of, lot of. A lot of your recording artists came in there and you weren't there all the time when they came in. So I mean those are the two that, that I remember that came in and that impressed me. And other than that, I can't remember who else came in. They were like 1:1 hitters, you know, and so I don't really remember them, but that was, that was an interesting job I had there.
Dana Aritonovich [00:18:39] How long did you stay there?
Joan Orosz [00:18:41] How long was I there? About four years. Three years. Three or four years I was there.
Dana Aritonovich [00:18:47] Okay, and then how old were you when you started working there?
Joan Orosz [00:18:54] Let's see, let's see. I was 26 when I met. I think I left there when I was 26, probably around 23.
Dana Aritonovich [00:19:12] And, and either one of you, where do you remember buying records? What, what stores did you go to to purchase albums?
Joan Orosz [00:19:20] Jeez, Didn't they used to have record stores?
James Orosz [00:19:27] You could go to Kresge's, I thought, you know, like it was like a five-and-dime store. They had everything.
Joan Orosz [00:19:33] I didn't think so. No. I think there were record stores you went to that only dealt in sales. There were stores. Now I'm trying to remember there were places in the malls as this is when I was older because I don't remember before that. But there were record stores that you could go into. They were in Randall Mall, yeah and you could go in and you could buy records. They had records by the artist, they had sound things. Or you can go in and listen to the records before you bought them to see if it was what you wanted and everything like that. But they were actual record stores. They only sold records. And who was that? DJ Tommy Edwards. He had a record store downtown which he sold records. It was just a strict record store. I mean you could buy other places, I guess, but that's where mainly you went to get your records back when we were young.
Dana Aritonovich [00:20:39] And where did you guys go to like see live bands? Either like local musicians or anybody, you know, national who was touring through Cleveland?
Joan Orosz [00:20:48] I never did. I never went to a concert in my life. But when I saw bands that would be in bars, that's where the bands were. Okay, There is no more. I mean very few places have live bands anymore.
Dana Aritonovich [00:21:03] And what bars did you go to? Do you remember?
Joan Orosz [00:21:05] Oh yeah, Main one was Blue Grass. That one had a fantastic entertainment all the time. They had real good entertainment. They weren't known people, you know, that I can remember. The only one that was there was Scott Reed and he was part owner and then he Ended up going to Vegas for a while. He had his own TV show for a while. Right. He was the only one. And where else did they have the Highlander? I only went around places here. I mean, there are other places on the west side, but I was strictly east side. And then there was the Highlander had bands and Quinn’s later on—Quinn’s, later on in Solon, which is no longer in existence. I mean, they're. Bands are too expensive. And with the drinking laws and everything else and the economy, they can't support the bars cannot support having a band anymore. And that's the changing in the times. And now basically everything is DJs. And even they're getting expensive, you know. So, yeah, it's, it's. It was much nicer back then, I think, see, being with the live bands and it was. It was much different. Much nicer.
Dana Aritonovich [00:22:25] And what about radio? What radio stations? Did you listen to anything that DJs did?
Joan Orosz [00:22:31] You remember Tommy Edwards was a DJ? Same guy that owned the record store. Oh, Randall. Bill Randle. There was another one. But anyways, mostly Bill Randle, he was. He was the one who was the rock and roll. And he had all your favorite songs on all the time. Tommy Edwards, dad, you know, and. Oh, that was TV Ghoulardi, because he's there talking DJs on the radio like now. Now I. Now I'm strictly country, you know, I listen to country now. But yeah, that basically the only two I can remember at that time. Whoever played your favorite songs when you flip through the stations is what you listen to. What.
Dana Aritonovich [00:23:38] Do you remember about Motown starting? What do you remember about?
Joan Orosz [00:23:41] Oh, the Temptations? And who else was. I checked out. These are dealing with Jackson 5 wasn't Motown. That wasn't Motown.
Dana Aritonovich [00:23:53] It was later, but it wasn't.
Joan Orosz [00:23:55] It wasn't. It wasn't the start of Motown. I can think like, I can picture them. I can hear music, but I can't think of who. Who did them. What was the question?
Dana Aritonovich [00:24:06] Well, just basically, what do you remember about, like in the first time when Motown started becoming popular and everybody was. Was listening to it? It was the Sound of Young America. It was Black kids and white kids.
Joan Orosz [00:24:17] Right? Right. Everybody listened to it. There was like. It was just a great thing. It was. It was not wild and crazy. It was not slow and gookie. It was just there and it had a good beat and a good rhythm and you could dance to it easy. You could hear the words and know what the song said. You know, you could sing along with them. You could dance to Them real easy. So yeah, that was. I like Motown.
Dana Aritonovich [00:24:43] What was it specifically about you just like that you could dance to. What was it about that appealed to you about that music?
Joan Orosz [00:24:48] It was just, it was just the beat and the rhythm to it. And basically I think that's what all music is. It's the rhythm and the beat and the words, you know. I wouldn't, I would never listen to rap because it makes to me it's garbage.
Dana Aritonovich [00:25:06] Mean.
Joan Orosz [00:25:06] That's my opinion. A lot of people like rap, but I don't like rap and I wish my kids wouldn't have ever liked rap, which they didn't listen to much, but.
Dana Aritonovich [00:25:16] Well, that's kind of what I'm showing in my paper is that young people liked whatever their parents didn't like.
Joan Orosz [00:25:21] Right.
Dana Aritonovich [00:25:21] And how did your parents feel about the music that you, that you were listening to?
Joan Orosz [00:25:25] My parents had no objection because they didn't think it was detrimental like some people. They thought rock and roll was horrible and it was the down, downtrend of all humanity, you know. My parents didn't feel that way because my mom, my mom was more modern I think in her thinking. My dad maybe not so much, but my.
James Orosz [00:25:44] I'm sure they thought you played it too loud.
Joan Orosz [00:25:47] I never did play it loud. I do now cuz I'm hard of hearing. But back then, no, I didn't. Well, you know, we were always a loud family anyways. So to them it may not. May have been loud, but not to them because we were always loud, you know, still are. That's what I said.
Dana Aritonovich [00:26:10] And James, what about your family? What kind of music, when you listen to this stuff, did they have any objection to it being so ethnic? I mean, I know in my experience, you know, my grandparents came from the old country and they didn't have a problem with it when my mom and uncles aren't listening to it. But I know a lot of families are more traditional. Either they want you to be as American as you can and listen to everything, or they don't want you to listen to it at all because it's bad for you.
James Orosz [00:26:36] Most of the, you know, being the neighborhood that we were, we were never home in the evening, out every night. You know, so far as my parents objecting to the music that I was listening to, I wasn't listening to it much at home.
Joan Orosz [00:26:54] By the time I came home, I knew he would be home listening to it.
James Orosz [00:26:56] It was time to go to bed, you know, so we were, you know, out and about, you know, hanging out wherever we hang out. At the beverage stores down the street and things like that.
Joan Orosz [00:27:12] The El Dorado, the drive-in restaurant. They used to have drive in restaurants
James Orosz [00:27:19] where you could park. There was bowling alleys, you know, that you can, you know, had bowling for us to keep us occupied. Because in the summertime we played baseball till it got dark. And in the winter, you know, you just, it got dark, you know, at 6 o’clock instead of 9 o’clock. And if it was in the early teenage era, we weren't driving so we would be walking and you know, there wasn't very much music to be heard while you were walking because nobody really had radios or any of that kind of stuff until we started driving. But you know, it was definitely rock and roll music. But there were so many kids in the car in those days. Today we probably couldn't, wouldn't allow it. You know, we'd always have six kids in a car. Today now cars won't hold six kids. You know, you're only going to put four in there. If it could hold six kids, we probably had eight kids in there.
Dana Aritonovich [00:28:35] And what kind of. If you guys had any jobs while you were teenagers to make for like extra spending money or anything?
James Orosz [00:28:41] I worked at Kresge’s, stock boy and very little stock mainly. By the time I got out of school and would go there, it's time to start sweeping the aisles of the store and cleaning up. They had a fountain there where you could get sodas and hamburgers and stuff like that. So all the dishes and all that stuff would come down. During the day they had somebody, but at night they'd have a real skeleton crew on. And mainly your job was like clean up and get the floor swept. So in the morning when they opened the doors, it was a clean looking store again. And that was the only job I really had other than working for my father later on in life. After school a little bit, but not much. Mainly there wasn't any time if you were playing sports and between sports in the early days, 9th and 10th grade. In the 11th and 12th grade I didn't play, injured my eye so I couldn't really see to play sports that much. So 11th, 12th grade is the years I worked in the Kresge's.
Dana Aritonovich [00:30:02] And what did you spend your money
James Orosz [00:30:04] on that you made at Kresge's Car and Gas.
Dana Aritonovich [00:30:14] And John, what about you? Did you have any jobs when you were a teenager?
Joan Orosz [00:30:16] Yeah, I started working when I was 16. The day I turned 16 and I worked, I was a cashier for Fisher’s. Then I went to Pick-N-Pay. Well, then I. I also got a part, another part-time job working at Taylor's, which is what. Which turned into May Company, which is now Macy's. I worked two jobs and then I switched. I was working at Pick-N-Pay and I worked Pick-N-Pay and I worked Taylor's at the same time. Then I still worked two jobs. When I got a full-time job and I worked at Imperial Wallpaper for a while. About a year left there. Where'd it go from there? Then I went to Mainline. No, I was Mainline first, then Imperial Wall, Stouffer. Then I went to Stouffer's. That was my last. Before I started working at the shop with him. I worked at Stouffer’s for over 10 years. And when you were.
Dana Aritonovich [00:31:19] When you were a teenager and you worked, what kind of stuff did you spend your money on?
Joan Orosz [00:31:25] I saved. And cigarettes, but I saved some. I spent it on. I paid rent, I had to pay rent. Once I started working, I had to pay rent to my parents. I had to. Once I got my car, I had to buy my own car, I had to pay my own insurance. So I mean. And then what was left over, I spent on myself what I didn't save, which was very little. You know, there wasn't much left to save. But, you know, but that's just the way it was back then. You did with what you had.
Dana Aritonovich [00:32:01] And when you had a little bit of extra money for yourself, what did you buy for yourself? What did you treat yourself to?
Joan Orosz [00:32:05] Clothes.
Dana Aritonovich [00:32:20] You. Did you buy records or anything?
Joan Orosz [00:32:22] Yeah, yeah, I did. I would buy records too. Yeah, I bought records, clothes, whatever. Whatever it was I wanted at the time I could buy, you know, if I wanted to go to the show, I had money to go to the show, you know, or we wanted to go out somewhere to eat, we could go and eat, you know. But then you needed gas for the car too. So, you know, it's six and one, half a dozen of another where it went.
Dana Aritonovich [00:32:48] And for either one of you, what's the first song that you remember that had sort of like. Like a. Like a social message or political message that something that wasn't, you know, like in the 50s, it was mainly, you know, girls in cars and hanging out. And then it started becoming a little bit more socially conscious in the '60s. What's the first? It could be a folk song or anything else. Or even later on in the '60s, just whatever, whatever you remember.
Joan Orosz [00:33:10] I have no recollection of anything. That's the truth. The only thing that I can really remember is anything that was after the 9/11 thing. That's when that all started coming in. I really didn't listen to, you know, or take it maybe that way, you know, just. I just listened to his song. Can I say something? What about John Lennon during World War II?
James Orosz [00:33:34] The.
Joan Orosz [00:33:34] All the antiwar songs. I didn't like him either.
James Orosz [00:33:39] The Beatles.
Joan Orosz [00:33:42] Yeah, but see, I didn't like him. So I didn't listen to. He was part of the Beatles and I never listened to the Beatles. Just like now I can't stand Taylor Swift and I hear her on the. On the radio and I switch her. I just. I'll listen to a commercial before I listen to her songs. I can't stand it. It's just the way I am.
Dana Aritonovich [00:34:02] Since we're talking about sort of like social issues now, what do either one of you remember about the riots in Cleveland, like the Hough Riots or the Glenville Riots or any of the upheaval that was happening during the assassinations and during the war? Either something that you remember that, you know, your parents might have said or, you know, if you worked anywhere downtown or anywhere near the areas.
Joan Orosz [00:34:27] No, never worked near the areas. All I know is I didn't want to go near them. You know, do you avoid those areas when that's going on? And that's what we did.
Dana Aritonovich [00:34:39] And James, what about you?
James Orosz [00:34:42] I remember the Hough Riots, but it's kind of tough to remember everything anymore. And you get '67, you get forgetful about some of the stuff. And I'm trying to think of some of the songs I listened to back in like '57 and '56 at these little corner stores which were like candy stores. They didn't sell anything but, you know, candy and hardly anything else because your little local butcher store sold your bread and your meat. But you also had another store, pretty much was a. We called it a candy store. But most of these candy stores did have. You know, one of them would have a jukebox and there were 45 records in there. I just can't remember what. Every now and then I'll turn on the TV and watch the oldies on television, and I think it's a great channel. And James will probably come home and see me sitting there in front of that listening to crazy old records from the '50s and '60s. And pretty much you could sing along with them. You know, now to think of the names of them at that time. You were singing along with everything, though, in the '50s and '60s.
Joan Orosz [00:36:17] It's because you could understand them right now to Pick them out.
James Orosz [00:36:21] You know, I'd have to have that TV on and say, oh, yeah, now, this one I could tell you something about because it's gonna ring some bells and stuff like that.
Joan Orosz [00:36:31] The bell hasn't rung yet.
James Orosz [00:36:34] I mean, sometimes I'll watch that. Like, on some nights, if I don't think there's anything good on it, I'll just turn that channel on and they'll have the artists up there. And then they don't have anything that you could sing along with. Like a word. Sing along. But you know, the record from being a teenager at that time or whatever, growing up in that era.
Dana Aritonovich [00:37:00] So what is it about that music that, you know, 50 years later, everybody. Not everybody, but a lot of younger people don't appreciate that music. But what is it you think that still is appealing about that stuff? Because most people who are on the radio today are not going to be played in 50 years.
James Orosz [00:37:14] A lot of those songs were like, oh, Donna. They were saying they meant something. You know, there was a thing about it.
Joan Orosz [00:37:21] Right. They meant something, I think.
James Orosz [00:37:24] You know, I don't know why old Donna sticks. There was a girl that lived across the ways in the Harvard and Lee area, and her name was Donna. So it wasn't nothing for three or four of us to go over her house, things like that. But it was.
Joan Orosz [00:37:47] And it was a good song.
James Orosz [00:37:48] Yeah, yeah. And especially if you're Donna. I'm trying to think of one of these other artists she would. Brenda Lee. What was it?
Joan Orosz [00:37:59] Brenda Lee was my. My dad's favorite.
James Orosz [00:38:03] And she had. She had some. I can't think of the name of the records now.
Joan Orosz [00:38:08] There was. There was a Patti Page.
James Orosz [00:38:13] It was.
Joan Orosz [00:38:16] Oh, who was the one? She was from England. She had such a good voice. She's just making a comeback now.
James Orosz [00:38:25] Little Richard was Fabian.
Joan Orosz [00:38:27] Fabian.
James Orosz [00:38:29] We had- We had one of my buddies who looked just like Fabian. He had the same hairstyle and the same big fabric flap over here. And he would have. He lived like two doors down from me. I was on a corner street, so I was the corner house. You'd have to cross the intersection. And then there was one, two houses in his house. And when his parents weren't home, you could hear his hi-fi set from his house to my house. That's how loud he would play all these oldies that he would play. And Fabian was one of his favorites because he looked like him. So he got away with that.
Dana Aritonovich [00:39:30] What do you remember about, Like, Vietnam protests in Cleveland? I know Case Western Reserve University had a lot of Part of the research that I was just doing yesterday, I was focusing on 1968 and all the newspaper articles I saw from the Plain Dealer that year. Everyone was about, you know, some political protests on some college campus around the country. What do you remember about anything, any kind of protesting going on in Cleveland, whether it's Vietnam or anything else, if anything comes to mind?
James Orosz [00:40:01] Well, going back to the old neighborhood of Harvard and Lee, Harvard and Lee and Vietnam and all this. This was a few years prior to- We lived at Harvard and lee in the '50s, late '50s, and, well, maybe '52, '52 to '56, somewhere around in that era. And at that time, what was happening there? It was what they call blockbusting. Neighborhoods were getting integrated with whites. And we lived at the time when we moved into this neighborhood from the Harvard and Lee area. Harvard and Lee. The reason we moved out of Buckeye and Woodland into Harvard and Lee was because the Blacks were coming into the Buckeye and Woodland area. And some of the other things he asked earlier about Hough and all that. Well, when you have Buckeye-Woodland, Kinsman, not Kinsman, can't think of this other street which was a couple streets behind me. Hough wasn't really that far behind. I mean, a mile down the road was Hough, because Buckeye and Woodland was on 89th in the corner. I think, where all the problems happened in Hough was like 89th or 93rd or somewhere in that area. So if you could draw a straight line, we were just. Buckeye and Woodland area was over. But Buckeye Woodland was now giving away to the Blacks coming up that area there. And Buckeye Woodland people were moving away, which at that time was pretty much a Hungarian neighborhood. Woodland was an Italian neighborhood. Now, what was happening there with the ethnic people? They were all moving away and they were mingling with other nationalities, you know, Hungarians and Italians and, you know, the Broadway was the Irish. The Irish were mixing. So now you had different cultures, you know, marrying off where before it was one Hungarian married a Hungarian. Both my parents were Hungarian. You know, that very rarely happens today. You know, it's always somebody's mixed marriage. But getting back to the Harvard and Lee area, when we were, you know, 15, 16 years old, that area, the Blacks started to come in and they were below Lee Road coming up, you know, from 131st Street on up next, main crossroad was Lee Road. And when they got to that point, there were for-sale signs. Every house. I mean, it wasn't just one house in a distance of a street. And some of those streets were 20 houses until you got to another street. And that's 20 houses, say, on the right side of the street and 20 houses on the left side of the street. Every one of those 20 houses had a for-sale sign. And us being gang at that time, we used to collect the signs because we didn't want our parents to move. And all of us had no idea where we would be then because we wouldn't be living. We were all living with our parents. If our parents moved, we're all not going to buy a house in the same neighborhood again. We're going to be all over the city. So our thought was, get rid of all these signs. But that didn't work. That became a real problem. That neighborhood did get integrated, and. The Kennedys started to come into power as President of the United States and things like that. And my. I still stayed in that neighborhood with my parents. They were almost the last ones to leave. And from there, they moved to Maple Heights. And today Maple Heights has the same problem that we had then at the Harvard and Lee area, that the culture of Blacks are moving into Maple Heights and everybody's, you know, having fire sales and getting the hell out of there. So getting back to the Harvard and Lee area, that when this all started, I wound up getting married when I was 21 years old, not to Joan, but to my first wife. And my brother didn't have the opportunity to go to a Catholic school like I did, so he would have to go to John Adams High School, which was down on 116th and miles between Miles and Union. And that was, you know, white and Black school and this and that. What had happened is by the time he was to be a student at that school, they decided to build a new high school in the Harvard Lee area, and they named it John F. Kennedy High School. And he was probably one of the few white kids in his school class. And, you know, he wound up joining the army and going to Vietnam and not finishing high school, because first days of school, I think they threw him out the first floor window of the school. They didn't want him in their school. So he told my mother and he says, he ain't going back. She said, well, you got to go to school. He says, nope, mom going in the army and he went to Vietnam, Uncle John. So he wound up, I guess, four years over there or two years over there, and then two years around the United States somewhere here and there. But he wound up getting his education through the Army. But that neighborhood, you know, went pretty much like wildfire. I Mean, that was a real. Today they don't allow what happened in those days to happen to real estate that goes on today. And at the same time, yeah, there was the Hough riots. And now, you know, I was actually not down there. But it wasn't hearsay from my parents. It was hearsay because we were old enough to hear what was going on and it wasn't the place you wanted to be. And really, I don't know why, except that they just weren't happy with what they were surrounded with their surroundings. And the cause wasn't. I think the cause was poorness. You know, that the general conditions of where some people had to live was so poor.
Joan Orosz [00:48:13] I mean, to differ with a little bit of that. They make the conditions they are.
James Orosz [00:48:19] Well, they didn't. The ones say before them, they grew into it, but that's what I mean, they didn't make it that bad. Then they came into it. Bad ones, probably. Who was the coppers that were burning everything down.
Joan Orosz [00:48:33] Oh, that you're talking about. I'm talking about the way they live.
Dana Aritonovich [00:48:37] Well, part of it too, because after World War II, we got a lot of people moving up to Cleveland from the South. And these are poor people. And there was no place for anybody to live up here. And the housing crisis in the .50s in Cleveland was ridiculous. And people were living like 12 people in a one-bedroom apartment. And I don't remember that. So every newspaper article I've read from the .60s. Yeah, I don't remember that. I mean, I'm reading the Plain Dealer. I'm reading the Call and Post, which is a Black newspaper. I'm reading all these different sources because I wasn't aware of all that. But I mean, the Second Great Migration happened right after World War II. Plus you have all the European immigrants coming in. Everybody's trying to find a place to live. And they weren't building new houses or apartment buildings. So you just lived in the apartment that was built. Turn the century if you could find someplace, you know, and there were enough jobs for everybody. And those kind of conditions, you know, like he said, they breed. It breeds, you know, bad feelings. And you're poor and you're coming up from the South with segregation and blatant racism. Well, there's a lot of racism up here too. It just maybe wasn't as- It wasn't-
Joan Orosz [00:49:39] It was- It wasn't like down in the South.
Dana Aritonovich [00:49:41] It wasn't like in the South. It's legal. It was legalized. And here we had segregated school.
Joan Orosz [00:49:47] Right.
Dana Aritonovich [00:49:47] And it was legal technically, but they didn't say it that way.
Joan Orosz [00:49:50] Well, I remember an incident down- My aunt lived in Savannah with my uncle. And down there in Georgia, the Blacks moved off the sidewalk when the whites walked out and they walked in the street. And I was from the North, never thought I was young. I was really young. And I was old enough to read because we were in a department store in Savannah because we were visiting my aunt and uncle. And I will remember this to the day I die. I told this to everybody. There were two water fountains. One said white and one said colored. And I walked to the colored. And my mother says, get away from there. You can't drink. I says, all I want to do is see the colored water. I thought, because I wasn't brought up, even though my mother and dad were very prejudiced, I wasn't brought up that that's what that meant, you know, And I'll never forget that because I thought nothing of it. But when we walked down the street, if they were walking on the sidewalk, they got off and walked in the street so the whites could walk. That's how it was in Georgia, even though it wasn't like that up here. And I guess that's why down there, when it happened, I couldn't. I couldn't understand it because I was still young. I couldn't understand it. You know, as I got older, I understood why it was. You know. But back then, one of my best friends was Black in high school.
Dana Aritonovich [00:51:31] And how did your parents feel about that since you said they were prejudiced?
James Orosz [00:51:36] She- They-
Joan Orosz [00:51:37] They didn't want to live by them, but they didn't care if I was friends with one in school. You know, were you allowed to go to her house?
Dana Aritonovich [00:51:44] And she- And she could-
Joan Orosz [00:51:45] She- You know what? Back then, she lived where the Blacks lived on one side of Broadway. I mean, it wasn't a bad area. There were nice houses and everything, but that's what they lived over there. And we lived on the other side. And that was the only section of Blacks that were in Maple Heights at that time. You know, where I'm talking about, where the body shop was. But it was still a nice neighborhood. But that's where they live. And it was- You didn't think of them like that. And that's why I can't understand my feelings is that- Never mind. I'm not going to even say that, because. No, I'm going to- I'm not even going to say that. But I think things would have been a lot better off if they wouldn't have been pressing the segregation, the desegregation so much and them, them, them, that they, you know, it's all about them. I don't think it would have been as bad as it is today if they would just let it gel. That's my personal opinion. And I don't think that the problems between the Blacks and whites today would be as bad as they are if they would have just gelled instead of the Blacks bringing up all the time, you know, about them having nothing and, you know, it just bothers me.
Dana Aritonovich [00:53:18] I don't know. Well, a lot of it was in the Cleveland area, too. It wasn't the people themselves, because there was some activism going on here, but there was a lot of stuff going on at the municipal level and at the state level, and they were trying to create laws. So it was really more politicians agitating for that. And you really can't force people legally to interact if they don't want to interact. Because Brown v. Board of Education technically desegregated all the schools in 1954, but that didn't really happen in real life, but it was illegal. But by the end of the 50s, a very, very tiny percentage of schools in the south were actually desegregated. And in the north, we still had it because we don't think of ourselves as, you know, being prejudiced like that. But schools in Cleveland were desegregated up into the '70s. You know, they still are kind of segregated, but it was just accepted. So I think a lot of the issue was with, you know, government people trying to force you. And socially, if you don't want to interact-
Joan Orosz [00:54:15] You shouldn't have to.
Dana Aritonovich [00:54:16] But the thing is, what I'm trying to prove with my paper is that the music was one of the things that made people-
Joan Orosz [00:54:20] People interact.
Dana Aritonovich [00:54:21] Yeah.
Joan Orosz [00:54:22] And it did. It did, because it had a little bit of both in the music. The whites picked up on what the Blacks were doing, and the Blacks picked up on what the whites were. And it was- Or the whites took from the Blacks, basically. I think that's the way the music went. I think the whites picked up from the Black music and integrated that with their music.
James Orosz [00:54:42] Well, speaking of that, The Everly Brothers were the only artists that would be allowed on the Black radio stations.
Joan Orosz [00:54:52] I don't remember that.
James Orosz [00:54:56] Their sound was similar [crosstalk] to the Black artists that were singing. And the Everly Brothers was the only one that disc jockeys that were playing Black recording music or some of the Black labels. I can't think of what they were famous for, but the Everly Brothers. [crossstalk] Yeah. Yeah, they kind of broke the ice there with that. And it was amazing because you could turn on, like, the TV and see their recordings still played today that they were playing and that. And, you know, they're white as can be, but they did get away with playing on the- And they're the only ones.
Joan Orosz [00:55:46] Well, look at Al Jolson. He was a white guy, played a Black guy, sang like a Black man, back in the era. And it was accepted. You know, I mean- You know, I mean, and everything was accepted. I think everything got- I think everything got pushed out of proportion with them saying this was the word I'm looking for will not come to me.
James Orosz [00:56:16] Well, once they get over that, I think life will be a lot-
Joan Orosz [00:56:20] Right.
James Orosz [00:56:20] Better.
Joan Orosz [00:56:20] But they won't. They won't. It'll take years and years and years and years and years and years before it'll ever happen.
James Orosz [00:56:28] Yeah. There's still that resentment today that you would think in 50 years that it would be gone.
Joan Orosz [00:56:34] It's because of us having- I mean, we're- Okay.
James Orosz [00:56:38] We're talking something that happened 50 years ago, and today we still have that issue. Fifty years has not really done much for that. We still have that thing to overcome.
Dana Aritonovich [00:56:55] So on that note, I just have one final question. What do you think the legacy of that music that you grew up with is? And what do you wish that, you know, younger people understood about that music that they're not getting in the music is on the radio now. Why do you think we still listen to that stuff?
Joan Orosz [00:57:12] Because it'll always be there. I think it'll always- Rock and roll is the history of music, really. I mean, you listen- I mean, they say things and it just- I think they say things. It's- It's about country, it's about man, it's about woman, it's about kids, it's about life, it's about death, it's everything.
James Orosz [00:57:35] But I don't think the Black and white issue comes up in rock and roll because you could-
Joan Orosz [00:57:39] No, music. Because music brings people together.
James Orosz [00:57:42] You know, you could have [crosstalk] a person singing next to you. It's one of these oldies on the radio that's an older, you know, person of your age and listen to the same music. So I think they'll tell you the same thing, that they're not for this hard rock either, and they enjoyed the music. I just think it was really good music.
Joan Orosz [00:58:08] I have some nice Black friends that I consider good friends. I had one that I worked with at Pick-N-Pay. I still hear from her and her husband. They live out in California. I've been friends with her for over about 40 years.
James Orosz [00:58:22] More than that.
Joan Orosz [00:58:23] No, it was before we're married. That's right. Over 40 years.
James Orosz [00:58:26] You've been married how long?
Joan Orosz [00:58:27] We've been married 41. [laughs] James Orosz [00:58:30] Longer than 40.
Joan Orosz [00:58:32] But I don't know if Liz was-
James Orosz [00:58:34] Yeah.
Joan Orosz [00:58:35] If she was before or after. Anyways. But I mean. And I, I- Our neighbor. He's a wonderful man. He's a good man. He's Black, and. And I have a lot of. And then there's some that I would not- I would- I'm afraid of that I don't talk to, you know, if I- I mean, there's just feelings you get, you know, and there's people that I've talked to that have been strangers, that have been Black, and I held conversations with them. I think, gee, what a nice person that person is, you know, and it's- You're always going to have some feeling of something with somebody that you're not going to like them for some reason, whether they're Black or white or Indian or Arab or Chinese. There's going to be something that you're not going to like about somebody. Everybody is not going to like everybody, you know, and that's just the way it is. That's life. Okay, we're all done.
Dana Aritonovich [00:59:28] Unless you have something else you wanted to add.
Joan Orosz [00:59:32] Nope.
Dana Aritonovich [00:59:33] I must have got a- Bingo. Okay.
Joan Orosz [00:59:36] I've got a safe seat.
Dana Aritonovich [00:59:37] All right, cool. Thank you so much for taking time. Time out to talk to me. It's been very. I have two pages of notes, so it's good. Thank you.
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