Dr. John Grabowski, professor of history at Case Western Reserve University, and historian at Western Reserve Historical Society, details the changes that have occurred in the University Circle since his undergraduate days in the late 1960's; the rise of the medical centers, new housing and the new immigration to the area. As a history major at Western Reserve University in 1969, he describes life as a commuter student during the late 1960's and early 1970's, including anti-war activities, and the impact of the Glenville riots. Grabowski discusses some problems that still affect University Circle, early anti-Italian feelings, conflicts between African-Americans and the Italian community, as well as town and gown problems between CWRU and Little Italy. Grabowski praises nationwide and local efforts to incorporate African-American and immigrant culture into museum exhibits He stresses the importance of partnering with the African-American community and immigrant groups in this effort, but admits segregation is a problem in Cleveland. He provides historic information regarding the vibrant entertainment venues that existed near East 105th and Euclid, and in the Cedar-Central neighborhood, and reflects on reasons for the decline of those areas. Other topics include opportunities in research using digitized images and the future of virtual museum exhibits.
Grabowski, John (interviewee)
Calder, James (interviewer)
"John Grabowski Interview, 28 April 2008" (2008). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 920014.
James Calder [00:00:00] I guess we can just get started.
John Grabowski [00:00:00] Okay. Sure.
James Calder [00:00:02] I'll just ask you to introduce yourself.
John Grabowski [00:00:06] Okay. My name is John Grabowski. I am the Krieger Mueller Associate Professor of Applied History at Case Western Reserve University and also the Krieger Mueller Historian at the Western Reserve Historical Society.
James Calder [00:00:19] Okay. I think we'll start off with, you know, just for the basics. Where were you born?
John Grabowski [00:00:27] I was born in Cleveland. I was raised in Cleveland, and with the exception of two years where I spent teaching abroad, my life has been lived in the Cleveland area.
James Calder [00:00:36] Where did you grow up in Cleveland?
John Grabowski [00:00:37] I grew up on the southeast side of Cleveland in an area which bordered two traditional Polish neighborhoods, one of which was known as Warszawa, the other was known as Goosetown. So I was on the borderline between the two.
James Calder [00:00:51] Okay. Do you have any interesting early memories growing up?
John Grabowski [00:00:56] Yeah, largely my memories of growing up were walking the neighborhood with my father, who had also been raised there, and becoming interested in history because he was stuck in his own wayback machine. Sites and localities and other, other aspects of the neighborhood would, would catalyzes his memory cells, and he'd talk extensively about that. I'd spent a lot of time with him down in the Mill Creek Valley, which has since been landfilled in. It was an incredible landmark in the city but it's gone now. And that, and growing up the neighborhood since our family had no car, my travel outside of the neighborhood was infrequent and always done by bus. And until the family started traveling by train to different locations, I had no sense of the world outside of what I grew up in.
James Calder [00:01:49] Do you have any... When you guys would travel, would you ever come to University Circle?
John Grabowski [00:01:54] I came to University Circle the first time when, I believe, I was six or seven years old, and I broke my arm while at school. And I was operated on at St Luke's Hospital, but the doctor's office was in the University Circle area, so I can remember my mother bringing me down here to visit the doctor to have my arm examined and also stopping at the lagoon after the examination. The doctor's office was on Chester near what is now Stokes Boulevard.
James Calder [00:02:24] Would you have any memories of what the lagoon was like back then? I guess when was this date wise?
John Grabowski [00:02:30] Oh, this, this would have been 1958, approximately. The lagoon was, I mean, in a child's eyes, the lagoon was what it is now. And I think this was at a point either spring or summer where it's a very green memory and a very fond memory. But that essentially was my connection with the Circle until I was in high school in Cleveland and then became a participant in several programs that brought us to University Circle, particularly to a Western Reserve University or the Case School, Case Institute of Technology at that time.
James Calder [00:03:06] What, what programs were they?
John Grabowski [00:03:08] One was the National Youth Conference on the Atom. The other one was a Sunday or Saturday morning humanities program that revolved, oh, coming to coming here to watch Waiting for Godot and commenting on its... I'd gone to major work in elementary school and was AP in high school, so I ended up on a lot of regional local college tours.
James Calder [00:03:33] Okay. How did you get involved in these programs? Were they just through that, what you just said or?
John Grabowski [00:03:40] I was I guess, I guess not to be pompous, but was a good student, and I was selected for the programs, and I went to Cleveland South High. And at that point in time, there was considerable interest in taking students who were outstanding and trying to get them out of the hood, so to speak, and to involve them with learning experiences other than those they would encounter at the high school. And so that's what brought me to the Circle. And that would have been in the early '60s, early to mid '60s that I began coming out here.
James Calder [00:04:11] Do you, do you know who sort of sponsored these programs?
John Grabowski [00:04:15] Well, the National Youth Conference Program, which also took us to Chicago and to... I think it was the Argonne National Laboratories outside of Chicago were sponsored by the Cleveland Electric Illuminating Company, which had a lot to do with local education at that point, a science, science program sponsorship. So I was on my way before I became a historian to become a scientist, so most of my involvement was in things that dealt with science. And of course, this was the '60s, this was the post-Sputnik era. It's an era of a tremendous amount of emphasis on increasing the scientific knowledge of American youth. So Illuminating Company did that. It also sponsored what is now known as Academic Challenge. And that's where the association comes from.
James Calder [00:05:02] Do you think... This is kind of derailing where I wanted to go, but I'll just ask you. Do you think there is less of that around the Cleveland area today? And do you think that has anything to do with, you know, the leaving of a lot of big companies just left here and...
John Grabowski [00:05:19] I don't know. I can't speak with any authority on it for two reasons. One, you know, my wife and I don't have children, so I've not been exposed to what students are offered or not offered in the school systems nowadays. I do know that certain aspects of the Circle which were de rigueur for most students. You know, I also came to the Circle for the usual concerts at the orchestra. I mean, there's still the yellow busses that queue out outside Severance Hall. But it's my understanding that musical education has been de-emphasized in a substantial portion of elementary and secondary schools. I don't seem to see, and again this isn't judgmental, the lines of busses that one used to see outside of Severance Hall. Right.
James Calder [00:06:05] Okay. What sort of memories do you have of the Circle in that area, you know, being a high school student?
John Grabowski [00:06:13] I thought it was very special. I mean, again, no one in my family had ever gone to college. So just getting on a college campus was an experience that was accompanied by some fear, trepidation, but also, you know, a great deal of pride that, you know, I was invited to come out to the campus. I do remember going to Strosacker Auditorium on Case's campus to hear, to hear a lecture or two. And the good old performance was in the former Newton D. Baker Building at the campus. And so it's, you know, it's one of those things that you sort of put in your personal quiver of honors and whatever, and I feel fairly good about it.
James Calder [00:06:55] How was... What was it like compared to today with, you know, within the campus population-wise, shock-wise. Was it similar or?
John Grabowski [00:07:04] It's, it's tough to say from those periods. When I came here in sort of a peripatetic form as a high school student, what I could comment on in terms of continuity is I, I've literally been in this area from 1967. When I enrolled, it was the newly merged Case Western Reserve University until the present, so that gives us 41 years of experience. What, what one finds in terms of difference is that structurally there are a great deal of new structures in and around campus, that the Euclid facade of the campus has changed in some ways, and it hasn't changed. It, it was always during my undergraduate days a somewhat risible topic because there just wasn't a lot of student life along Euclid Avenue. There were very few restaurants that one could go to. That situation has changed now. There are considerably more eating places for students, particularly at Ford. I'm, I'm sorry, Mayfield and Euclid. The Triangle, what's going to happen across from the Triangle promises a, you know, major infusion of new shops, stores, and museum into the area. I've watched as the organizations that constitute the University Circle community have expanded significantly. I mean this, and watching the McCullough Building rise in the old Ford factory on Euclid Avenue was a substantial change on the Euclid, the Euclid Corridor if you will. The newer additions to Cleveland Art Museum. The addition that was going on at The Cleveland Institute of Music. Even the additions here at the Western Reserve Historical Society, the new library, the Reinberger Hall, all have been part of the growth in the Circle.
James Calder [00:08:59] Do you think... How do you think the Circle has been able to grow when other parts of Cleveland have been, I guess, declining?
John Grabowski [00:09:09] Yeah. Well, I think one could argue that the Circle is probably the brightest economic spot in Cleveland. And, and the cliche, and it's probably a cliche that bears some truth, is the impact of the health care and the healthcare industry. And that you have the two major hospitals, if one discounts Metro General, within the Circle area. And what they do is they bring in jobs, they bring in traffic. They have served to anchor that portion of Cleveland Heights, though it's above the Circle, as a residential area. My field as a historian is immigration and ethnicity. I'm very fond of Little Italy, but I find it somewhat striking that Little Italy, which if one could find the house to buy and one were able to buy it there ten years ago, you could have bought a house for $55,000 perhaps. And now you have condominium and townhouse developments that start at half a million. That indicates that monies are coming in with people employed at the hospitals or employed in research. So it is essentially is... It's education and medicine that drives the Circle. The Circle is also a center for immigration and migration. A substantial, a large portion of the student body at CWRU is comprised of international students. I live on Overlook Road, right above the campus, and they're just great numbers of international students there, so it is this. It's a product that is valuable in the 21st century, and it is a product that I would argue rests on the early industrial history of Cleveland, because the culture of medicine education came out of all the monies that were made in industrial Cleveland, but now they serve to sustain at least this one area here.
James Calder [00:11:01] Okay. Excellent. I was going to back up a little bit, I guess, and continue with some of your history. How, how did you begin working in the Circle or I guess it seems like you came here with, with Case.
John Grabowski [00:11:17] Right. Well, when I was in high school, I was encouraged to apply for colleges outside of the community. I didn't know if I was going to be that adventuresome, so I applied to both Case and Western Reserve which were, at my application time, unmerged institutions. And when I did arrive here in September of 1967, they had merged and I chose to study in the Western Reserve portion of the newly merged Case Western Reserve University. I began my career as a chemistry major and went through about two years as a chemistry major. And then in 1969, I changed my major to history. A: because I liked history. B: because I had just suffered through two semesters with a rather obtuse calculus professor and essentially said, enough of this. And so I changed my major to history, much to the dismay of my mother, who was widowed, who asked me, said to me, what the hell are you going to do with that? I had no idea. My association with the Western Reserve Historical Society began that same year. This is 1969. At that point, the Historical Society was free. I had a date. I had no money. So I decided to take my date to the Western Reserve Historical Society. I had never been in it in my life. Sort of liked what I saw and I walked in the next week and asked if they had any positions open and I landed a job as the page in a library. To make what could be a very long and tedious story very short, that career here began at the same time as my major in history and at the same time began majoring in history. Moving toward grad school, I received fellowships from CWRU, so I stayed here for my entire graduate program. CWRU offered, began to offer a course in archives, archival. So when I did my Ph.D. I had a minor in archives which fit perfectly into what I was doing here. And along the way, as I developed my career in order to earn more money, I taught as an adjunct at a variety of schools: Cleveland State, Tri-C, Kent State University Library and Information School, and also at CWRU. In 1981, my mentor at CWRU, David Van Tassel, asked me to join him in the Encyclopedia of Cleveland History Project, and that began my involvement there as managing editor of the encyclopedia and currently editor of the encyclopedia. So it's all flowed together, but it's all been here [in] the, within the Circle. And the position I hold now is a joint position in, supported by endowment, that links both CWRU and WRHS. So that's, that's why I've seen 40 some years at this place.
James Calder [00:14:10] Do you think that's a typical or slightly typical experience that people with all the offer and you know, getting... You know, sticking around for that long.
John Grabowski [00:14:22] It's, it's a highly unusual position. And, and I'm very fortunate to have it in most instances. Very few schools really do want to see their undergraduates continue as graduates. And more importantly, when somebody receives their Ph.D. from a particular school, joining the faculty of that school is not something that happens. It just happened to work that way for me. So it is, it is rather unusual for me to have been able to link or pile upon one another all these different experiences.
James Calder [00:14:58] I want to... Well, okay. I'll ask a quick question. How was... This is sort of guiding off of career stuff for a second. How was student life that year when you stayed here? Did you live by campus?
John Grabowski [00:15:12] I lived at home, which was one of the saving graces. I had a National Merit Scholarship which covered all my costs in terms of tuition and even books. But there wasn't enough money to support dormitory life, so I simply lived with my mother and commuted by RTA or by car when I finally got a car. So yeah, and the food was better at home as well. So.
James Calder [00:15:35] Was there any campus activities that you enjoyed or special places?
John Grabowski [00:15:41] Yeah, I hung out with the, the commuters club. There, there always has been a group of commuters at, at CWRU. And so we had a commuters club and requisite, you know, picnics and activities, you know, movie experiences, if you will, standard brown bag, lunch tables, complete with ping pong table, and everything else. So the commuters were a small group but very tightly knit. I never really went to any type of football game here. I guess the one event that I did become involved in were the anti-Vietnam protests. I wrote some antiwar poetry which were published in some of the sort of mimeo sheets on campus. And then after the tragedy at Kent State University, this campus, which was rather quiescent—it's not a radical campus, it never has been a radical campus, it never will be a radical campus—staged a protest, and we shut down Euclid Avenue. I should say they shut down Euclid Avenue. I stayed discreetly in the background after May 4th, 1970. So that aspect of the war and the antiwar situation was very much part of my life here, particularly, as I drew number 17 in the draft lottery and knew that unless I could find a medical excuse, I was going to have to either join the military or await my fate as a, as a draftee. And I was, for better or for worse, I managed to get a medical deferment, which then allowed me to go on to graduate school. So that was it. It's, it was a very much again, it's, it's a 1960s, '70s camp as there were protest banners and posters all around the campus. Ironically, a number of those were harvested and they found their way into the archives of the library at the Western Reserve Historical Society. So yeah.
James Calder [00:17:42] Do you, do you remember any experience of either the Hough and Glenville riots causing any sort of, you know, especially the Glenville Riots, being their proximity to Case, do you remember that causing any concern within the Case students or just the Circle in general?
John Grabowski [00:17:57] It created concern in the Circle. Hough occurred the year before I came here and strangely, during that year, I was engaged as the delivery assistant for an import food company, and a lot of their customers were in the Superior–Saint Clair district. And I still can remember delivering food and seeing the National Guard on the streets there. Glenville, again, I think, proved to be frightening for the area. One of the people I work with here was at the Historical Society during the Hough Riots and recalls, you know, seeing the National Guard consistently, constantly around the periphery of the Circle and sort of the aura... That was the fear. I don't think that's the right word, but sort of the aura of something out of the ordinary, some sort of emergency, something that could perhaps be terrible that overwhelmed the area.
James Calder [00:18:56] Do you think that affected... Did that affect the area long-term?
John Grabowski [00:19:00] Yeah, I think it has. And I think what, what one deals with, with University Circle is, is and you have to be bluntly, is an issue of race. One of the reasons for the creation of what would become University Circle Inc. was Mrs. Mather, you know, looking at in the 1950s, sort of the ebbing away of certain aspects of the Circle. And as the African American population grew, I would say a concern about what could be done to keep the Circle together, to keep it cohesive. We know very well at this institution, the historical society, that it's, it's more difficult for us to attract visitorship from the western and southwestern suburbs. There is an image of University Circle that many people still carry as a dangerous place. Now, if those people define danger in racial terms, that's their problem. But that's... It's an East Side, West Side thing. So that's constant. I'm fascinated by the Circle because it's... There are a whole series of borderlands here that... I wish I had the time to study them. I mean, there is the cultural community, which is University Circle, and then there's Little Italy, which that has been a problematic borderland at times between town and gown. Then there's another borderland—and these are all morphing as time goes on, it's fascinating—there's another borderland between the Heights and Little Italy, two different issues. And then there's the borderland between the African American community and Little Italy, and the borderland between the African American community and the university and the cultural institutions. Cultural institutions have made enormous strides in efforts to bridge that particular borderland. I think they've been successful in many instances, but perhaps not as successful as we would wish.
James Calder [00:21:01] That's a lot of things I would like to talk about. Would.... I understand what you mean. I live in this area too. I lived in Coventry and I live in Little Italy currently. And it is strange. It's like a bunch of mini neighborhoods, all within one neighborhood kind of. It's one of the few places you can walk to wiith a bunch of different ethnicities... [inaudible] What, what have been some of the sort of borderland issues between, let's say, the Heights and University Circle or Little Italy and University Circle?
John Grabowski [00:21:37] So, one of my, well, I guess my favorite stories, but Cleveland Heights area around Overlook was pioneered in the 1890s as sort of the new Euclid Avenue. People were fleeing the city as it became smokier and more ethnic. So the Overlook became the region of residential choice for some wealthy Clevelanders. There were always the Italians down the hill. You know, anecdotally, we have some letters in our collection of Tom L. Johnson papers in which a resident on the Hill is complaining to the mayor about the Italians making all these noise with their fireworks in the neighborhood. And Tom Johnson punted on that. Sent it to his police chief, Fred Kohler, and Fred Kohler reported back that there was nothing the city could do since the Italians were taking the fireworks beyond the city limits. Ironically, the man who complained would later be the president of the Board of Trustees at the Western Reserve Historical Society. 1910, William Rice, a noted lawyer who lived on Overlook was, was murdered. John Stark Bellamy has written about this. And his murder took place in Euclid Heights and immediately the suspicion went to the Italians that somebody down the hill, the black hand, had done him in. So it's, there's, there's this very interesting issue of Italians. And there's, there are all kinds of stories that come there. There, there was a golf course up in Euclid Heights at one point and I believe that some of the Italians caddied there. I also know that a lot of the Italian kids went out and they caddied at other golf courses. So I find it ironic that some very good golfers came out of this ethnic neighborhood. You know, golf is supposed to be an upper-class pastime. So, you know, these borderlands cut in different ways. They, the black-Italian borderland exploded when they tried to integrate black students into Murray Hill Elementary School. There was a black man who was set upon in Little Italy. His name was Benoris Toney. I find it interesting though, now if I go to the Feast of the Assumption, I see an increasing number of black faces in the crowd. As things, things are changing. I still talk to older African Americans who will not go to Little Italy. They're afraid to go there. But yet, when I frequent restaurants there almost all the time, I'm seeing black faces in the restaurants. That is changing. I have heard, but I don't have any proof, about the resentment that the Italians had as the Case campus began to expand, particularly the south residential areas of near Murray Hill and Adelbert Road and the expansion of that area that some people felt that this was an infringement on, on their part. The other thing that redounds there, the other thing was that when there were anti-black incidents within Little Italy, the students or the faculty at CWRU would protest and they would become upset with the Italians and that just exacerbated some distance between them. I've had colleagues who would not eat in Little Italy because they wanted to protest the racial attitudes for Little Italy. So it becomes a very complex issue of, you're right, different communities, but they're now morphing. I mean, Little Italy and Coventry are becoming a single community in many ways, a community of entertainment, of nightlife, of residence for students who are looking for what used to be very affordable residential areas. There's a bus that serves, you know, Coventry. Coventry has become part of the campus of CWRU, as far as I can tell. The issues though still are, I think, to, for University Circle to work to the area to its north, which is largely African American, and to get students more involved from those communities here. But, but things do change [inaudible]. One of the highest ranking museum professionals in the United States is a man named Spencer Crew, who was the head of the Smithsonian American History Museum and then went on to head the National Underground Railroad Museum. He's African American. Spencer fell in love with museums because he grew up on the edge of University Circle, and he came to know museums and he built a career out of it. So it's, there are these positive things that come out of the Circle. And certainly here at the Western Reserve Historical Society, we have about 40,000 schoolchildren a year coming into our East Boulevard programs, and many of them are African American from the surrounding neighborhoods. We started an African American archive here in 1970. We've maintained that ever since. So, there are changes.
James Calder [00:26:29] Has there ever been attempts to make, you know, attempts to represent more African American culture within the Western Reserve or any other institutions that you've seen or for the ability, you know, not just to let them represent their culture in different ways?
John Grabowski [00:26:51] Yeah. You know, it's, it's a good question. When one looks at how African American culture finds its way into museums. And, and in the 40 years that I've worked, I've worked largely with European white, white, quote-unquote, immigrant groups. And when we started it, it was always, you know, the professionals going out to the community, telling the community what they wanted and bringing that material in. What has, has evolved from that, thank goodness, is that the community is now the engine driving this, and we work together with the community. So to answer the question, yes. Almost every museum in University Circle has had exhibits or programs that relate directly to the African American experience, whether it's African American art at the Cleveland Museum of Art, or African American aspects of culture within the Cleveland Museum of Natural History. We've done a number of exhibits here at the Western Reserve Historical Society, most currently the Carl and Louis Stokes exhibit, which is up. But increasingly, as these exhibits have evolved, they evolved as a partnership, not, as I should say, a scholarly top-down study. And this sort of empowerment of communities through and within the museum world is a major thing within museums nowadays. Chicago History Museum has been a leader in having communities come in and put together their own history exhibits, create, do their own oral history interviews, and to work with the professionals in the museum simply in the manner in which those exhibits would be constructed, or how the documents and the interviews would be preserved. That's a, that's a very welcome change.
James Calder [00:28:37] So do you have any thoughts on... I just kind of think of this from what we're talking about? I don't know if it's even in the interim of the question, but I'll ask it anyway. Is... Do you have any thoughts about, you know, why neighborhoods like Little Italy or even Coventry, which had that sort of I think at one time like a biker reputation...
John Grabowski [00:28:56] Oh, yeah.
James Calder [00:28:56] And then sort of an iffy reputation, as well as like the Hessler area, like I said, Little Italy, all those sort of neighborhoods have been able to capitalize on their sort of unique culture in some cultural areas and draw people from outside. You know, the flip side is people could talking about sort of... I want to say like a... You know, those cultures have been somewhat marketed or something less authentic. But whatever...
John Grabowski [00:29:25] Yeah.
James Calder [00:29:25] I mean, like, there's, there's, you know, there's these cultural attractions that attract people.
John Grabowski [00:29:29] Sure.
James Calder [00:29:31] And African American culture, which tends to be very attractive in lots of situations, doesn't seem to translate into the neighborhoods.
John Grabowski [00:29:38] You know, it's ironic because what has happened here and I'm going to go a little bit out on a limb, is that where the neighborhoods have survived intact, those, those aspects of its culture that now have a grab to them, they have some traction. I think, you know, Italianata is so hot. You know, once, you know, Italians were on the, you know, the bottom rung of society just above African Americans. And now to be Italian is cool. And what I find ironic is that Italians are now celebrating The Sopranos, at least some Italians are. And 20 years ago, that was a symbol that most Italian-Americans would not want to see publicly used about them. So there's a comfort level because they've achieved power within the community. And fortunately for Little Italy, the physical structure is still there. You have a very tight street, Mayfield Road, which is, you know, a disaster for commuters. But in terms of creating what I would call a street-front ambiance similar to something in Chicago, I don't find anything else like it in Cleveland except maybe in the Warehouse District downtown. So Italianata is cool. The structures there, people can enjoy it. Coventry has so many memory levels and that has been held together. It's... You referenced the bikers I mean Coventry... What I love about Cleveland Heights is that all the names are Anglophilic, you know, Berkshire, Hampshire, Corydon, and Coventry, and it was an alternative for people who love things that were Anglo to get away from Jews, blacks, and ethnics. And lo and behold, by the 1920s there was, you know, several major Jewish congregations there in Cleveland Heights. And Coventry has become at that point, you know, there are small kosher butchers and other stores there and tailors. By the '60s and '70s, it's biker, it's counterculture. And, you know, people of my generation remember that as kind of a place to go. So it has an ambiance, but we've left it intact. What I find ironic and this is what I wanted to get to is close to University Circle is Cedar Avenue. And, and for the period from the 1920s really into the 1950s and into the 1960s, Cedar Avenue was called the ghetto, or it was Cleveland's version of Harlem. And it had black-owned restaurants, black-owned nightclubs: Cedar Gardens nightclub, Val's in the Alley. And a number of, of white people from the Heights would go down to Cedar. They'd go to hear Art Tatum play at Val's in the Alley. They'd go to the Cedar night, the Cedar Gardens nightclub, to watch black entertainment. They would dine there. Very much, you know, the way the white people in New York would go to the Apollo and so forth. What has happened to Cedar? It's mostly disappeared. Why has that happened? I don't have an answer. Some people will say because it has been, portions of the Cedar infrastructure have been eaten up by institutions like the Cleveland Clinic, that there wasn't a lot of investment in it. Or alternatively, one could say that, that following the '60s and the riots in the '60s that, that black Cleveland became for many white people a no-go zone because of fear, misunderstanding. But what we see in Mayfield Road could have been, and this is playing counterfactual history and that's a dangerous game, had the fears not risen had the, the infrastructure been preserved it could have been somewhat similar to that. Could have been really, you know, very interesting area, not that, that it isn't now. But a lot of that structure is gone from, from Cedar-Central.
James Calder [00:33:26] That's, that's what I have heard about a lot of this sort of, especially at 105th and Euclid.
John Grabowski [00:3
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