Abstract
Lynn Tolliver was born in Cleveland in 1950. He started working in radio at age 18 and is still in the music industry as a radio announcer and song writer; he is also an author. The interview discusses his childhood, family, race issues and music.
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Interviewee
Tolliver Jr., Lynn (interviewee)
Interviewer
Aritonovich, Dana (interviewer)
Project
Rock and Roll
Date
10-25-2009
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
63 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Lynn Tolliver, Jr. Interview, 2009" (2009). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 200011.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/32
Transcript
Dana Aritonovich [00:00:00] I'm going to put you on speakerphone. Give me one second. Okay. Can you hear me?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:00:12] Yes, I can
Dana Aritonovich [00:00:13] Okay, great. Okay, why don't we start with you introducing yourself and telling us what you do now and where you live.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:00:23] Okay. My name is Lynn Tolliver Jr. I am professional radio announcer. I'm also a songwriter and an author. What I'm doing currently is I've been writing songs. I've written about 140 over the past year and a half.
Dana Aritonovich [00:00:42] Excellent. And could you tell us what year you were born and where you were born?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:00:48] I was born in Cleveland, Ohio, in 1950 in a hospital called. Oh, wow, I forgot what hospital. It's on 116th and Shaker Boulevard.
Dana Aritonovich [00:01:03] Okay. And what neighborhood in Cleveland did you grow up in?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:01:08] What neighborhood? Yes, I grew up in the Hough area in the beginning, then Wade Park. But from the age 9 to the age of 18 was the Lee Harvard area. Okay. But I've lived in Beachwood. I've lived in Maple Heights. I lived in Mayfield Heights. So I'm kind of like been around the city.
Dana Aritonovich [00:01:35] And what kind of neighborhoods were those? Can you describe the cultural aspects of those neighborhoods and economic and things like that?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:01:43] Was thoroughly Black. And I think I use the term Black. I don't use the term African Americans. It was a Black area and it wasn't as, you know, bad as when it was at its worst. Wade Park was similar to Hough. The Lee-Harvard area was more of an affluent Black area, but not high-class. Mayfield Heights was a pretty white neighborhood and Maple Heights was a cross, blend of both races. And I also said Beachwood was, Beachwood, Ohio, is also more of a white neighborhood.
Dana Aritonovich [00:02:25] Okay, and what schools did you attend?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:02:29] My schooling. I went to Hump Elementary. I went to a school called Beehive. I went to a school called Wade Park. Then I went to Charles W. Elliot, which is on South Lotus Drive, and John F. Kennedy, which is on Harvard Avenue. I also went to try seeing Cuyahoga Community College, which was Downtown, the Eastern Campus.
Dana Aritonovich [00:02:52] And could you talk a little bit about the kind of people you hung out with? Your friends, people from the neighborhood in school?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:03:00] Well, I had a cross section of friends. I think I developed, you know, true friendships when I went to Charles W. Elliot. They were both Black and white because Charles W. Elliot was an interracial school. Okay. It had both, you know, Black and white people. I think some of my good friends there was a guy named Anthony Moriello. He was Italian, I believe, based upon his last name. I don't think we got into, like, you know, what a guy was back this was in, like, the early '60s and '63, okay? You know, you just like the guy or you didn't. You know, there may have been some kind of racial thing going other places in the city or in the world or the country, but, you know, Anthony Moriello was a friend, a guy named Charles Tough Tufts, who was Black. I mean, it was just a cross section, but I really didn't hang out with any person. Basically, I was kind of a loner, okay? And I could tell you why. I could tell you why I was a loner, okay? When I was a child, my father went into debt, trying to give me everything that I wanted. So I had drums, I had guitar, I had everything. Just about. I had all the bowls. I had football, baseball, everything basketball, although I can't play basketball all that time. And my friends came over one time and tore my toys up. And from that point on, I really didn't want to be around anyone that could have been around the age of, like, 10 or 11.
Dana Aritonovich [00:04:32] Okay?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:04:34] So, I mean, I played street ball. I played street football with a guy named Charles Zelman and Gregory Hood. And we were good. We were so good that the owners couldn't beat us up. That's how good we beat them in the game. And then they beat us up after the game is over.
Dana Aritonovich [00:04:48] There you go.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:04:49] But, yeah, but, you know, as far as socially, no, after my toys were destroyed, I said to myself, hey, if they can't take care of my things, I don't need to be around them. So. Yeah.
Dana Aritonovich [00:05:05] And tell me a little bit about your family.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:05:10] I love my family. They're all deceased now. My mother, my father, you know, they were a loving couple. I never heard my father yell at my mother, and I know he never said her. Which, you know, that set the tone for me and my uncle. I have an uncle. He's still alive, you know, even though my uncle was very loud, he was never violent. So I don't have a violent nature, so don't push me. And my mother. The magic of my mother's touch, you know, even though I was sick, all she did was touch me and I felt better. So it was. It was love. It was a tremendous amount of love. And my sister was my- She had the same blood as I did. You know, we were very close, you know, and as I got older, in radio, she called me every day, every morning. She called me every day, every day. So. And I called my mother every day. So we were very close family. We ate dinner together. You know, when we were little, and when I said this to my father, up until my age of 18, I would put my leg over his. I would put my left leg over his right leg.
Dana Aritonovich [00:06:23] And what did your father do for a living?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:06:27] He was a welder, and then he became an inspector. He worked for Tow Motor, which became Caterpillar.
Dana Aritonovich [00:06:32] Okay.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:06:32] Those were the lift trucks. Yeah, they built lift trucks.
Dana Aritonovich [00:06:37] Okay.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:06:38] So.
Dana Aritonovich [00:06:38] And did your mother work outside the home?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:06:42] She was a seamstress and also worked at, I believe, a law firm. No. And, you know, she spent maybe over 20 years of her life working at the county Welfare. I forgot about that. Okay, she did work.
Dana Aritonovich [00:06:56] Okay. And what kind of things did you. You and your friends and maybe other relatives and things. What kind of things did you guys do for fun when you were a kid?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:07:06] Well, I played street ball, street football. And because the Lee Harvard area had not been fully developed, when my cousins came over, we were doing, like, a lot of hiking in the woods. It was like woods right behind, you know, at the end of the street. And behind my house, it was wood. It was a wooded area. So that was kind of an adventure for city kids, you know, and when they came, they were amazed at the wilderness that still existed back then. That was in '60s, '59, '60, '61 and early '60s. Like that. So, yeah, that's the kind of thing we did. We played, you know, we played tag. I mean, you know, back then, there were no computers, you know, and I don't think that there were no cell phones either. I think when the first communication came in, it was a pager that you had to go call. You know, you had to go call the number and find out who paged you. Yeah. So we didn't have all those things. We didn't have, you know, the technology that exists today. But, you know, we had fun. We played outside. We played football on the field and on the grass. There was a park at the end of the. Like, several streets down, called Carouge Park. And we would actually play tackle football. So we were kind of like an outdoors group because it was kind of new to us, being from the city.
Dana Aritonovich [00:08:37] And when do you remember first listening to music? What kind of music was it? And if you remember how old you were,
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:08:45] I would have to say I was around 14, maybe. There was a radio station called WHK and a nacho named Joe Mayer. Mayer in the Morning. And he played a cross section of Black and white records. It was predominantly white because it was the. I think it was when I was 14, it was you know, the Beatle Invasion. James Brown was the round. You know, I'm a big Beatles fan, so James Brown and the Temptations, that kind of music. And I didn't listen, you know, I didn't, like, really compare other radio stations because they played, you know, the kind of music that I was comfortable with.
Dana Aritonovich [00:09:28] Mm. And what? I'm sorry. Go ahead.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:09:35] And then I discovered, you know, WJMO, which was a Black radio station. It was RV they called it RV. The nickname was Mighty Low. And they played all soul music. So that was kind of a thrill and a treat. But I don't think the stations marketed themselves back then as they, you know, as they do now or they later did as time wore on and.
Dana Aritonovich [00:10:00] Do you remember? Go ahead. I'm sorry.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:10:04] My favorite music was pop music. And then I later started liking rock and soul music. It was a combination of all of them. And mostly I go song by song. So I might like something about The Beatles and then like something by the Four Tops. You know, it varied. But that was basically, you know. And then, you know, the British Invasion. I don't know if you heard of that or not.
Dana Aritonovich [00:10:30] Oh, yeah.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:10:30] That's when The Beatles came. And then the date card 5. And then The Rolling Stones. The Rolling Stones is my favorite, you know, rock group. And a couple of groups came over. Then they all came over. You know, Freddy and the Dreamers. I'm telling you now, Hermits. Hermits, all that stuff.
Dana Aritonovich [00:10:51] And do you remember what the first record that you bought was?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:10:55] Couldn't tell you, because I bought so many. I was a paper boy and I spent all of my money on records, so I really couldn't tell you. I would buy three, four, five at a time. And back then, records were like 39 cents apiece, so albums were 99 cents. It's crazy.
Dana Aritonovich [00:11:15] And what record stores did you go to?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:11:17] If you remember, there was a store called Rick and Marley Lou. It was downtown. And downtown was maybe like about 12 to 20 miles, maybe 12 to 18 miles from the Lee-Harvard area. So I wasn't aware of, like, little mom and pop record shops that, you know. My mother would go downtown a lot. So I had the opportunity to go to the store called Record Rendezvous. And they had just about everything. You know, they had it all categorized real neat and everything from excited. They paralleled the radio station's list. You know, what was 1 through 40 on the radio station was 1 through 40 on the singles rack. And that was where the records were. You know, the plastic disc that had the larger than a half a dollar. Hole in the middle. Yeah.
Dana Aritonovich [00:12:14] And do you remember maybe what the first live band you saw perform was?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:12:22] Shelby Robinson and the Miracles.
Dana Aritonovich [00:12:24] That's a good one.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:12:25] I was 15. There was a place in Cleveland called Leo's Casino, and it was an elite place to go. And it was rather small. You know, thinking back and thinking now, because I don't think they could really hold more than 150, 200 people. There was a one drink minimum and pop was a dollar. You know, pop's a dollar now. So you can imagine what kind of money, what kind of mad money they made a one grid minimum. And they would give these leis to you, like those Hawaiian wreaths they put around your neck. The color indicated how old you were. Okay. When you were under 18, you wore a certain color. If you were from 18 to 21, you wore a certain color. And if you were 21 or over, you wore a certain color. So the waitresses could probably tell who could drink and who couldn't. And I saw Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, and that was. It was unbelievable. I was 15.
Dana Aritonovich [00:13:24] And what kind of crowd did they get at Leo's Casino?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:13:29] A mixed crowd, because it was like the place to go for entertainment in Cleveland, Ohio, Leo's Casino, they had, like, it was a club on the bottom, and then above it was a hotel, the hotel suite, where I guess the people came from out of town, they'd be able to stay there for the night or however it was. Usually when a group came in, they came either for two or three days and they would do like two or three shows a day. I guess that's how they got their money, plus that dollar for a pop.
Dana Aritonovich [00:14:08] What other bands did you see at that time?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:14:13] Ooh, I just remember going to see Smoky Robinson. I don't remember. You know, then I got into radio when I was 18, so me going to the show became me becoming the emcee. And, you know, it's a difference. A difference watching a show as a person coming to see a show. And in seeing a show, when you see the show, you see it, but you don't see it the same way as you see when you're sitting in the audience, you know, so you were-
Dana Aritonovich [00:14:45] Go ahead.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:14:47] I started writing for Jock when I was 15, okay? So my attractive into the business came at an early age. So. And then I- I really stopped tabulating, like, who I saw because, you know, I remember watching David Ruffin in the room with me smoking marijuana, but I didn't know what he was doing. So that was like a common lifestyle for, you know, when you're an announcer. And that was one of the premier radio stations in the country. You know, everybody came and, you know, they came to Leo's Casino. So it was a huge ordeal. You know, Leo's Casino in New York probably would have been nothing, but Cleveland- Even though, you know, this is where rock and roll began. You know, supposedly they didn't have the entertainment sources that a city like New York had or a city like Chicago or Philadelphia. So Leo's Casino, was it for Black entertainment.
Dana Aritonovich [00:15:58] And what did your parents think about the kind of music you were listening to? I know a lot of parents, especially in the early days of rock and roll, were they objected to what they thought was music that promoted juvenile delinquency or it was too sexual. Just in general, it was a negative influence. What did your parents think about the music that you liked?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:16:20] Well, my father hated the fact that I played the same record over and over. And I still do that to this day. If I like a song, I'll play it over and over and over and over and over. And he would scream at me. But he stayed out, you know, he played cards a lot. So he wasn't there. And he said I was driving my mother nuts. My mother never complained, except for one record. She complained about Funky Broadway, I Died in the Blazers. And it was a heck of a record. It was, you know, a nice track. And she said to me, you might as well say shitty, You know. But I didn't understand the comparison because funky was a beat, it was a light. The blues, it was funk. And funk was a good thing. The funkier it was, the more thump it had, the more drive it had, you know, rhythm and flows back that time, even though there was some driving blues artists, and I mean, like B.B. King, it was kind of a laid back drive. What funk was a forceful feeling. It was louder and it was more driving. So that's what I equated funk to. But it's not hot, Mother.
Dana Aritonovich [00:17:37] And what kind of music were you? I'm sorry, go ahead.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:17:40] Little did she know that, you know, the music that she hated would become my career.
Dana Aritonovich [00:17:45] Yeah, exactly. What kind of music were your parents listening to at that time?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:17:53] My mother didn't listen to music, but she went to church. But I didn't ever sing. My father sounded like he was a Broadway guy, you know, he sang songs like Nat King Cole and Frank the Knocker. He sang those songs because he was a satyr. He was one of the first Black men to sing before President. He was born in 1915, and I didn't learn that until he died. I saw that on his obituary, whatever you call that paper that accompanies the funeral. And I'm- I'm not confident you don't. You won't hear the calls on that time. Yeah, so he had, like an opera voice when he sang in church, everybody looked at him. So he was into gospel and what do you call it? Classical. What is my Sinatra and Nat King Cole? That kind of style.
Dana Aritonovich [00:18:53] Okay.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:18:54] I couldn't stand that kind of music. You know, I probably acquainted that kind of music with old age. And I liked rock and funk and R&B. And my sister, she really didn't express what kind of music she liked. She could also sing. And when she sang, when I sang, it made me sound like I could sing. That's how good she was.
Dana Aritonovich [00:19:20] So, obviously, music was very important to you since it became your career. In what way do you think music inspired any other kind of? Either for you in particular or for maybe people in your community? Do you think there's a relation between the music of that time, popular music like rock and roll, rhythm and blues? Is there a connection between that and any kind of, like, social movements or political? Political activism?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:19:52] Well, I would say that the social and political movements in music did start from blacks until, like, around 70ish. But it did influence hairstyles. It influenced clothing styles, because how your performers, how the singers and groups and soloists dressed, that's how a lot of the people dressed in the neighborhood. You know, so Mary Wells or The Supremes had some kind of hairdo. Most of the women had it. Just like today. You know, there's Mary J. Blige look today. You know, there's the Madonna look. That was the same thing that happened back then. And when you look back then, it looks dated, the hairstyle, but some of them are coming back. And I guess the cold they're in today dictates how the person looks overall. But our dressing, our hairstyles, our talking, the language that we used, that was probably influenced by music and the musicians and the performers back then. I think the first social song that really meant something was "Ain’t No Stoppin' Us Now" by McFadden and Whitehead. Although Sam Cooke had a song that was called "A Change is Going to Come," which I don't think anybody clung onto that song by its political statement, but, you know, a change was going to come because, you know, maybe of all the mistreatment and the sorrow and anguish that the Black race has gone through that song "A Change is Going to Come," Sam Cooke, that probably meant something, but, you know, it didn't stand out like "Ain't No Stoppin' Us" by McFadden and Whitehead. That was kind of like a spiritual upliftment and a positive move. You know, I guess there had been a few riots, there's been, you know, lots of violence. You know, there's been a lot of Black men falsely imprisoned and "Ain't No Stoppin' Us Now" was a real positive uptempo, new technology, new sound type thing and a positive movement. But for some reason, positive records, that was huge. That was a huge record. But a lot of songs that are positive, they just don't click. They don't fit in because I guess people don't identify with them unless it's done by a popular group like a Bono or something like that. But "Ain't No Stoppin' Us Now" is probably the first social song that meant something to a lot of people.
Dana Aritonovich [00:22:30] And so what do you think that music or art in general, what do you think the role is or should be in American society?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:22:42] Well, music, usually it depends upon the song. Music covers all spectrums, all gamuts. You know, it could be a social movement. It could be to enhance a scene in a movie. It could be to bring cheer to somebody who has suffered some kind of loss. Like my nephew did a song called so Alone, which was about my sister. You know, a lot of people have played that song at funerals because, you know, you're left without, you know, someone that meant something to you to dance too. You know, when you go to a car, if you didn't play any music, what was it dance to, you know, and music is the universal language. Well, all you need is a beat. And some people, it takes some kind of intoxication, whether it's through drug use or alcohol, to loosen them up to dance. But the naturals, you know, was there to sell food on the dance floor. So it covers all kinds of spectrums. It bubbles into commercials on television, it rallies for songs at games. It just covers. It's nothing that it doesn't touch. It's religious influence. You know, there are people that feel better after they've heard some gospel, some good gospel. And just recently, over the past 10, 15 years, 20 years, which is recently, actually, there's rock gospel, there's rap, gospel, you know, so music just covers the whole world, basically.
Dana Aritonovich [00:24:21] And what do you think the impact of all the. And, you know, basically all popular music of the past 60 years has been, you know, has its roots in Black music. And what do you think the impact has been of that music on Black culture and Black identity in Cleveland itself and just in general?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:24:44] Did you repeat that question?
Dana Aritonovich [00:24:46] I gotta remember how I said it. All popular music, basically, of the past 60 years or so has roots in Black music. Whether it's rock and roll, rhythm and blues. Anything that you hear on the radio in some way came from Black music. What do you think the impact of that music has been on Black culture and Black identity in Cleveland specifically, and in a national context as well?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:25:12] Well, to tell you the truth, I don't think Black music means as much to Black people, although it has created jobs. I mean, it's created a lot of jobs and wealth for the entertainment field. And I guess that trickles on to other people that are affiliated with that. But I've always thought that Black music was more of an influence on everybody else but Blacks. Because if you look at, you know, who the Beatles liked, they would always mention Black roots. If you looked at who the Rolling Stones liked, they would always mention Black roots. You know, Elvis Presley, you know, was inspired by Blacks. There are so many people. Once you see a Black person. Mick Jagger got his routine from watching James Brown on stage and not wanting to go on after him. He didn't want to go after him because James Brown was such a polish. James Brown in his heyday, outdanced everybody, even Fred Astaire, you know, he had ball bearings for ankles because he could do anything. He could do anything. And I think that the influence that it has had- Because if you look at some of the old teen magazines and some of the old music magazines back in the '60s, every rock artist said they had a Black artist that they followed, you know, so I don't think it has meant as much to Blacks. You know, it sounds, you know, tremendously different when a white artist does a Black song. But like you said, the root to not just the past years from the introduction of rhythm and blues, it's such an infectious feeling. You know, it's such an emotional feeling. You know, this is really funny. There are great white singers, but when a white singer has soul, that's the best singer. [laughs] So, you know, and I think- I think sometimes the Black culture does not respond to Black music as well as others is because probably the way Black people have been treated. That's just my assumption.
Dana Aritonovich [00:27:23] Can you explain a little bit what you mean by that?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:27:27] Well, sometimes if the people that are around you that you're trying to get accepted by don't accept you, then you probably look at your product as not being as worthy or as good as. That's just my concept. Although, you know, I wrote a song that became huge. You know, when I first heard it, after it was finished, I was proud of it. But I don't think there's enough people who are proud of it. You know, you see a lot of people that have complexes, even though they're rich, you know, like Mariah Carey suffered for a while and Janet Jackson. And there could be other stories that are behind that. But to be accepted is probably more important than their valuable input and valuable contributions that they've made. I hope that explains.
Dana Aritonovich [00:28:18] Yeah, no, that's an interesting. I haven't heard anybody else say it quite like that. That's an interesting perspective. Let's talk a little bit about your career and how you got started in radio.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:28:31] Okay. For years, from the age of 18 up until the age of, I'd say actually 57, I've been on the radio and I started at WKMO, which is, you know, the station that I discovered at a young age is playing predominantly Black music. It was also WABQ, but WABQ was the daytime radio station. It didn't stay on 24 hours like WJMO did. When I started at the age of 18, I was a part-time job that worked on Saturdays and I filled in. And I also set up remotes for live broadcasts where if a church was on a broadcast and it would be different, four different churches if a church was on, I'd have to go to the station, I mean, go to the church, go get into the phone patch and then would be able to go on the air through a cord connection at the radio station through a telephone line. I did that for quite some time. And since working part-time and filling in, I was as popular as another jock who was full-time. And you know, I don't know how to explain that. I mean, I just had a good time and you know, I love doing what I did. And this is it. I wrote for Jack, who's not living. I wrote for a jock because there was a jock, who's not living right now, was popular and I wanted this other guy to be popular. His name was Gary Edwards. And I wrote "G" for the goodness in the music that I play. "A" stands for all the time. It happens every day. "R" is for the rowdiness because it's never there and "Y" stands for you because it's for you. I care. I wrote that. I wrote a [inaudible] for his name Gary and [inaudible] for his name Edwards. He was the guy that taught me what I had to know to get into radio. And when I saw him, I saw him on the telephone talking, playing records, you know, during the breaks, running around, taking meter reads, doing all kinds of things. And I said to myself, I'll never be able to do that. And it turns out I was able to do that and more. So I'm really happy about that. And I'm not bragging, but, you know, I put my heart into my career, and for a lot of years I worked someplace else because I didn't trust radio. You know, everybody got fired. I don't know why they got fired. I know there was a lot of politics. I was a kid, I was 18, you know. Somebody got fired and you're thinking, oh, well, I didn't see him do anything wrong, you know. So there was one guy - and this is how I got my full-time job. His name was Demetrius Barry. And he had a girl on his lap in the station. And the PD came in and said, Hey, man, I tell you one more time and you're out, you know, you're fired. So then I- He says, hey - my name was Shotgun. Some people still call me that to this day. That was my radio name because everybody had a name and everybody had a record. Michael the Lover, he had a record by the COB. So I said, Shotgun you know, you walk on the All Stars. He had the record Shotgun. And that's my- That's really my thing. So now I went to this. I said, Demetrius, you know, I can't take your job. You know, the TV wants me to fill in for you. And he says, hey, man, you better take it, because if you don't, somebody else will. I messed up, man. I messed up. So that was the beginning of my full-time job. And from that point on, I climbed, you know, I became better. What I did was I watched everybody make mistakes, and I didn't make those mistakes. You know, like acting cocky. You know, you go to a place, Hey, I'm so and so. And you know, the guy said, I don't give a damn who you are. I don't care, you know, I don't care if it's your mother. I said, hey, I ain't gonna. I'm not gonna do that. And, you know, I watched everybody's mistake and I did the exact opposite. And I grew. And I was confident. I pushed the station more than I pushed myself. And I guess, you know, the audience felt that. They attached something to me and I didn't put myself above them, you know, and I didn't know what I was doing. But later, when I worked at 93 FM, WCAK, the owner said, man, these people, they feel like they can come right up to you. I've never seen that before. I didn't know what he was talking about. But then I realized I didn't have that shove away attitude, like, you know, hey, don't come around me. You know, it was like putting themselves on a pedestal, you know, which I'm very thankful and grateful for. So. And I became the program director. And I wanted to give the audience the best that they could. I wanted to give them what they wanted, not what I wanted, not what I thought they wanted, not what somebody else said. This is what they should hear. I wanted to give them what they wanted. And that's been my story throughout my life, giving them what they want. Because if they tell you they want to hear something and you don't give it to them, you're the idiot. You're trying to force a record down their throat. Or if you're trying to force a program down their throat and they don't want it, you're the idiot. So. And there's a thing called. It's unsolicited, unsolicited suggestion where they just. Where they tell you what they want. You know, when you ask them, hey, what would you rather have, A or B? You know, you're putting a thought in their mind, they're making a choice. But if they come up and tell you, hey, man, I heard a record of the club called so and so. You guys are playing it, okay? You go find it and if it wasn't vulgar and it's in your format, play it. You know, if there's sayings like what you see is what you get by the dramatic. That saying was out before the song came out. The song just reinforced it. You know, I'm pretty sure that was the same thing. But there ain't no stopping us now. They were saying that, like, you know, we made the monster Washington and had a victory. Maybe they tried to stop something and then it stopped. Ain't no stopping this now, you know, so then it becomes a song. Because I don't think songs can make something happen that isn't already a current going. It just makes it popular. That's just my feeling. Repeat what you say. Just like a good radio slogan is what the audience calls you, not what you call yourself. Now, eventually, after a period of, you know, after a period of a long time, you know they're going to repeat it. But if you repeat to them what they repeat it to you for, it Happens faster and it happens stronger. So give the people what they want. There's no question. There's no guessing, as long as they simply want to as much as give them. And I became a program director. As I told you, I went to other stations. My first job at a rock station was WGCL, also in Cleveland. It's now WNST. And the pay scale and white radio was far surpassing the pay scale in Black radio. And I'm pretty sure that's the same thing. Now. If you got a job making $40,000 in Black radio, you'd probably make it 90 or 120 in white radio. And even if the ratings at the black station are higher, you know that's not the case. The salary is usually lower. And I eventually became a radio station owner in the '90s, it was 92.3, which was WCJM, and that was the FM station. And then WJMO, the station that I worked at first in my career, I ended up owning, and then it was later sold. So I had a pretty decent radio career, just like that guy. The radio has been very, very brutal. But I've been good to radio, so it's been an even twat.
Dana Aritonovich [00:36:40] Did you ever have any experiences at any of the stations you worked in, in any capacity? Did you ever have any experiences of racism? Either from employees or maybe listeners calling in or anything like that, or fans on the street?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:36:58] No, to be honest, no. When I worked at WGLC, there was a program director that picked on me. But then when I looked at some of the memos that were left open, he picked on everybody, you know, and they didn't want me to cut any commercials. But that was a fantastic thing for me. You know, I didn't give me some spots to cut at work. You know, they would say, I cut a couple, but not many. And for the couple of times, you know, there was a commercial. In my commercial, I did a lot of dubs, but there were no speaking parts. And then there was one. The first time I got a commercial, I called the PD and I said, hey, man, there's a spot on here that, you know, voice. Are you serious? Yeah. They ask for you. Oh. So I said, okay. But, you know, not really. You know, the bantering that he did to me, he did it like two or three times worse. To the other job, he was just a badger. You know, sometimes racism can be mistaken for badgering. Some people are just, you know, they're power hungry and they chop off everybody's head, you know, so if you take it personal, And I'm not saying racism doesn't exist in the country. You probably always will, you know, But I really didn't see any. I had a good time. You know, I had some Blacks that attacked me, really. I had Blacks that were envious of me, you know, for. That ain't racism. There were problems, but I never suffered any racism.
Dana Aritonovich [00:38:43] And what were the black people attacking you for? Like, was it just jealousy or.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:38:48] Oh, yeah, jealousy. There was, like, extreme. They were jealous. And, you know, I never tried. I never said, hey, I'm better than you. I never did anything like that. You know, I let the people speak. You know, I let the Raider speak. There was. The general manager said. He came up after me. He said, you know something? This was at a Jackson 5 concert. I got a standing ovation. This was April 10, 1970. And the story behind that was everybody picked out their clothes and they were flamboyant. A guy picked out another DJ picked out my clothes, and it was adult brown. And they introduced everybody on the stage. And then when they introduced me, I got a standing ovation. And I said to myself, here comes the hell. Here comes the blouse. Oh, my goodness. You know, I knew that one of the debating, the standing ovation, all the other jobs were going to be because they tried to harden down, you know. And sure enough, aggravation started. The general manager said to me, we had a favorite DJ contest. He said to me, you know something? I almost got as many votes as you. Was that enough to find out who was the best jock at the station? Or were we trying to give away a trip or, you know, to increase ratings? You know, I didn't understand that. But I understood, you know, later what he meant was, you know, people don't like you in the station. That also happened when I worked at the white station, WGCL. The office manager, Leah Gaffney, she said, well, everybody's in the lobby, all the jockey. She said, hey, you know something? And my name was Truckin' Lenny, brother. Truckin' Lenny. which was like, mother effing money. She says, you know something, Trucking Lenny. I bet you if we were to take a vote on who was the favorite police Jackie here, it would be you. And I'm thinking, why would she say something like that? I'm a Black guy, the only Black guy, because she's saying that. And that was the feeling of the. The office staff and most of the salespeople. Oh, my God, the doctor gonna hate me. So. Yeah, But I've never really experienced any racism. Just jealousy, which is a compliment, actually.
Dana Aritonovich [00:41:15] Oh, yeah.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:41:18] Yeah.
Dana Aritonovich [00:41:18] And so after what year did you leave Cleveland?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:41:24] I left Cleveland in 2004.
Dana Aritonovich [00:41:26] Okay. And you went to Florida?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:41:28] Yes, I went to Jacksonville, and I stayed there for about a year, and then I ended up in Tampa, where I worked at WTMP for three years.
Dana Aritonovich [00:41:38] Okay.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:41:42] Jacksonville, I was just a morning guy.
Dana Aritonovich [00:41:44] Okay.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:41:44] At Chaplain, I became the program director again and on air.
Dana Aritonovich [00:41:50] So let's go back a little bit to the late sixth sixties in Cleveland and talk about. What do you remember about, you know, like, the Hough Riots, the Glenville Riots? What do you remember reading about that, maybe hearing your parents talk about it? What was kind of like the feeling in the air at that time?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:42:11] It was a lot of hostility, and I think it was the Hough Riots, and I don't think it was the Glenville Riots. That was in the late to late '50s. And what happened was there was a police call in East Cleveland that attracted police to that vicinity. I think it was on Euclid Avenue. And then somebody opened a fire on them, and that began, you know, all the tragedy. I don't remember my mother, father, saying anything. I know that I had to come to JMO, and there were the military police, you know, stationed around in that vicinity. They checked everybody that was, you know, driving around. There was a lot of hostility in the air. You know, a lot of stores were burned, a lot of fighting, a lot of shooting. And they had to call in the National Guard, you know, so. And that's what I meant, the National Guard, Military Police, National Guard, you know, it's all the same. And it was just- Everybody was walking on eggshells. I remember WABQ was broadcasting 24 hours a day because they were allowed, you know, they were a daytime station, but they were allowed to broadcast 24 hours if there was some kind of emergency, and this was an emergency. I don't remember how long it lasted, but I know that there was, like, a call to end the anguish and the violence. And shortly after the National Guard came in, you know, the violence came to an end, but it was very hostile. They were very hostile. Very, very hostile time. Very. And, you know, I don't think the country will ever see anything like that again. Hard to say. You know, just recently in Cincinnati, they had something maybe two or three years ago where a kid was shot or something, or he died after being arrested. And then there was violence, but I don't think on the scale. I think the last time we had something was when the L.A. riots, where the kids were walking around beating people and looting and the whole deal. I don't remember them saying anything about looting in the Hough riots. It was just violence. People were getting beat up. And, you know, the cops, you know, the cops were killed, you know, and still, you know, I guess they didn't say looted. You know, they set him a fire, you know, they burned them. I don't- I don't remember them stealing. I really don't remember that part. I just remember cops being shot. It was a false alarm, but it was a plot to get the police to come to that vicinity, that particular area. And they opened up fire on them like it was a war zone. And I never felt fear. I mean, I never- Because I didn't really see the violence on my route home or anything like that. I never saw that. I just saw the military. I saw the National Guard standing in different places. And I guess the heat of the situation was, you know, the huff area. And they tried to stay.
Dana Aritonovich [00:45:25] And what do you remember? Part of my project, I did a short version of this paper in the spring for another class. And I focused a lot on James Brown and the potential riot in Boston the night after Martin Luther King was assassinated. And the free concert that James Brown put on public TV and that kind of kept everything under control for a couple days. They played it live, and they played it over and over and over throughout the night just to make sure that everybody stayed home and nobody was out rioting and looting and stuff. And I know that in most major cities there were riots. There was a lot of tension and potential violence, if not actual violence at that time. What do you remember about that night in Cleveland when everybody found out about the assassination in 1968?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:46:18] Well, I don't know if the neighborhood was that stirred. And I never knew about that James Brown concert, although that said a lot about James Brown's impact and what he meant. But I do know music is a soothing. Yes, there's hate songs, but music more or less brings about a joy to you. So I could imagine how the impact of that concert could have calmed a lot of people down. He probably wasn't only singing. It was probably saying some encouraging words. And I'm probably pretty sure most of the Black leaders were called to, you know, say that same thing. But music is a soothing, is a calming. You know, I would have to say 90% of the music is more of an enhancement to you than it is a disruptiveness. So I think that, you know, We Shall Overcome is a song that people sang. You know, that's the one that comes up, you know, to lift Every voice and sing. I believe her name was Kim Weston. You know, those are kind of songs, like spiritual enhancing songs that kind of take, kind of take some of the sting out of you, you know, as you're singing them, you know, they have like a powerful, powerful feeling that comes over you when you hear your song. Songs like that, you know, songs after tragedy, just like a change is going to come, you know, lots of times that song was done, you know, something happened, you know, oh my God, you know, when are we going to see a better time? Oh, it's coming, it's coming. You know, change is going to come, you know, so I think music has played its part in soothing the saddest beast in all of us.
Dana Aritonovich [00:48:18] And what do you remember about Carl Stokes election in 1967?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:48:24] It was an overjoying, I don't know if any song was saying, but there was a lot of cheers, a lot of celebrating. He was the first Black mayor in the country, you know, so that was just unbelievable. You know, that probably was the beginning of Obama becoming the first Black president.
Dana Aritonovich [00:48:42] Oh, absolutely.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:48:43] That was unbelievable, Unbelievable. So, and for it to happen in Cleveland. Cleveland has had some major, major milestones happened that, you know, became a trickle around the, around the country. Thought to be the butt of a lot of people's jokes. But I don't mind, because when you were joking about Cleveland, you have to say it. So that was just an overpowering, overpowering effect for Cleveland and for the rest of the world. And it probably had the same impact then as the Million Man March did. You know, later on in our history, this is the problem sometimes when something good like that happens, how many people talk about it? How many people reminisce or they may pull it back when they're doing Black History Month. But what about in March or April? What about in June? January. What about in November? You know, I don't know if they talk about it enough for it to make a difference. And I don't think there was a Coke song. I'm sure it wasn't.
Dana Aritonovich [00:49:55] I'm sure there wasn't. You're right.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:49:57] You know, the rest of the comedy Stokes. You know, there's a little bit of custard, But, you know, there was no song. But it was a major, major impact when he became the first Black mayor of the city. A major city and, you know, first Black mayor in the state, in the country of America.
Dana Aritonovich [00:50:24] Okay. I think unless there's anything else you want to add about the role of race in music, in popular music, and the impact that popular music can have on race relations. Is there anything else that you want to add about that?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:50:45] Well, you know, what music has in relationship to race is. You know, lots of times when black music was first played, they called it nigger music. And they didn't like some of the white forefathers, and mothers didn't like their children to listen to. To race music. It was called race music. And the same music that they shunned probably is the same music that brought people together. You like that or I like that. I like Stevie Wonder. I like the Temptations. You know, a lot of the Black groups were some of the white people's favorites, but they weren't necessarily the white people that didn't want their children to hear that kind of music. Sometimes when music is tough, you know, when music touches your soul, there's nothing you can do about it. You're controlled by it. You know, people would sneak out. Could you imagine that people would sneak out to go see a Black performer? You know, so now you're out there watching a Black performer. You're not supposed to be there. There's this pretty Black girl, and even though there's difference of color, the pops still work. So if you're attracted to someone, there's your interracial marriages, there's your interracial situations. And maybe you met at a party that was playing rape music, and maybe that gave you an open door on what kind of person lives on the other side of the tracks. You know, their culture. Oh, they eat spaghetti. We eat spaghetti. You know, you find out that you have a lot of similarities. They like the Cleveland Indians. They like the Cleveland Browns. They like. You know, there's a lot of similarities and there's differences, sure, but people have so much in common with each other, it's unbelievable. The barrier that separates them is what they think about it in their head. But music has brought a lot of people together, and it's changed a lot of the ways that people live. You know, music is infectious. So just like Prince. Prince is one of my favorite artists.
Dana Aritonovich [00:52:52] Me too.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:52:52] Yeah, everybody loves him. Black, white, Hispanic, you know, Oriental, everybody. So that right there is the proof that, you know, music has a powerful roar to all races.
Dana Aritonovich [00:53:10] And what do you think it is about that music that makes it kind of reach across, you know, races and religions and generations? What is it about this, you know, Black-inspired music, really, that everybody can relate to?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:53:27] It's a feeling and it's the words. You know, one of the songs that Prince hand was do me baby. It's a sensual song. Everybody has sex. Everybody doesn't know how to go about obtaining what they need or, you know, fulfilling their desires. But "Do Me" does a very good job. "I Can't Help Myself" by The Four Tops. You know, it's about a guy who's in love with a girl. He can't help himself. How many men see somebody that they want and they can't help themselves about the way they feel? I mean, you know, music is like a Hallmark card. It says a lot that you probably can't say. And the thing about a car, it's just words with music. Music makes you move. Have you ever seen what babies do when they hear music? Who tells them to move? Who encourages them? They hear the music and they just move naturally. I think dancing is a natural part of our existence. And music makes you dance. So if you're not dancing physically because you don't know how to or you can't, you're dancing in your head. So music has a relationship with people that have relationships with each other. They just don't always know it until they meet each other. So it's just a powerful magnet for everything. Just like what the world was being like without music. Be real quiet.
Dana Aritonovich [00:55:03] Yeah, it would. Do you think that there. Are there any artists who are out there today who have that same kind of a message that maybe like James Brown, you know, might have been talking about, or Sly and the Family Stone? Anybody who's talking about, you know, social issues, maybe not even in an overt way, but they have that message in there somewhere. Is. Is there anybody around today who you think we're going to be talking about in like, 20, 30 years? Like, we talk about James Brown and these other artists, I think you too, stand out.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:55:30] But I don't think too many artists do that now because it's not popular. And I don't know whether or not people feel that in their hearts. I know that Jay-Z and Mariah Carey will make a lot of money from something that don't need to a cause, but they don't say they're not. I remember Bob Dylan saying Hurricane, you know, that boxer who was jailed for a murder he didn't commit. You don't see that too often, because I don't think radio gravitates to those kind of songs on MTV. You know, I don't think the audience looked for something like that. So I think songs like that were spawned out of a necessity to try to say something louder than a speech. And I don't know if that's happening today. I just don't see it. You know, if you check the church now, what song says, hey, be good, be better? What song says that? You know, what song says, fight, stand on your own? Nobody says that. Those songs were like 70s, 80s owned, speckled later. You know, they never caught on. You know, I don't know if that's some evil force preventing those kind of zones from happening or the people just saying, we don't want to hear that kind of thing.
Dana Aritonovich [00:56:52] Or do you think maybe the music industry is just so different that it's not allowing those kind of voices to get out?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:56:59] That's what I said. Yeah, they prohibited, you know, but I think it's probably. I think it's probably public demand. I think in some public demand said, we want a peace song. We want, you know, a song that is going to coincide with a cause, like fade the seal, don't stomp the whale, you know, global warming. Is there a song about global warming?
Dana Aritonovich [00:57:24] No. No.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:57:26] If it is, it ain't making it. Is there a song saying, don't spend money on the moon, Spend money on man right here? No. You know, I've written two songs and I'll email them to you if you can download an MP3.
Dana Aritonovich [00:57:41] Yeah, yeah.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:57:41] It's called The End, and there's a couple of them. I have one called Evil Liz. I wrote because of, you know, these missing girls, which is like, this is treacherous to me. And, you know, whether that know, songs are made in, I doubt it. You know, if you put on an album and if they play it, they like, oh, don't play that. You know, I think what media responds to, even though they don't do it 100%, is I think they thrive on the negativity because everybody is more attracted to a missing child than how you can grow your garden better and greater. You know, I think that they're more attracted to missing children and women than they are. You know, let's stop violence, let's have. Let's end race, and let's just campaign to end it. You know, I may be wrong, but I don't think so. Call me Monk. I think that, you know, those kind of songs, you know, it has to be something extremely dramatic for song. You know, just like Barry Maguire's Eve of Destruction. There were a lot of things going on back then, and that song kind of stood in.
Dana Aritonovich [00:59:00] Oh, yeah, well. And also, I'm ending My paper ends in 1971 for two reasons. Carl Stokes left office and Marvin Gaye's What's Going On came out, and his album was really one of the first that addressed a lot of these issues. I mean, the whole album, it was, you know, know, it was about racial violence and Vietnam and the environment, and it really encapsulated all these issues that are going on in the day. And these days, you don't. You're right. You don't really get that out of, you know. Yeah. You know, you two. Bruce Springsteen does some, you know, some things, not necessarily like a theme album like that, but he does a few songs here and there, but they're not going to be played on a top 40 station. You know,
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [00:59:43] back then, I think what happened was Marvin Gaye was such a huge artist. You know, he sang about all kinds of things before that album came out. "What's Going On?" You know, that was a saying again, you know, so now, you know, we still say that today. Hey, what's going on? What's going on? You know, so now he comes up with a song named "What's Going On?" It has a great beat. You know, you got three magnets going there, a saying without even knowing what he's saying and what's going on. Marvin Gaye was a legend even when he was alive. And then you had Motown Records. No other station, you know, no other record company, no other record company has. There's no RCA Weekend, no Columbia Record Weekend, no Sony Weekend, no Philadelphia International Weekend, no. But a Motown Weekend, a Motown Weekend. There was no Capitol Record Weekend, a Capitol Weekend. There's no other label, no other label has the magnitude of what Motown did on Motown Weekend. Every city has heard a Motown Weekend on one of the stages. And he'll continue. That's the kind of power that. That that music had. So you had Motown, you had Marvin Gaye, and you had that catchy saying, what's going on? And then now there was a. There's almost a message in the song. Wow, that made Marvin Gaye, you know, he was already a lesson that made him bigger. And then the other songs, as you said, the ecology, the environment, it was just unbelievable. Love for brother, man.
Dana Aritonovich [01:01:28] What a concept.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [01:01:33] Pardon?
Dana Aritonovich [01:01:33] I said, yeah, what a concept, you know, Love for your brother. And, yeah, I mean, one of the interesting things, you know, when I was doing my research earlier this year about Marvin Gaye, and, you know, everything I read was talking about how frustrated he was that he wasn't really able to, because Berry Gordy kept a very tight rank and all of his artists, and he didn't want to be. He didn't want to be political. With his artists or with their music, even though it was political. I mean, this is a Black-owned company producing music for the masses. And he wasn't gearing it towards Black audiences necessarily. But it was a point of cultural pride too. And for people in Detroit, when Motown left Detroit, people were very angry about that. But one of the things, you know, I forgot where it was a documentary that I saw, a rock and roll documentary that came out I think in the '90s. And I think it was Berry Gordy who, you know, was talking about when he was talking to Marvin Gaye about making this album. And Berry Gordy was kind of freaked out about making "What's Going On?" because it was a really heavy album. And at that time, to put all this stuff into one, into one package at this volatile time, it was a necessary thing to do. But Berry Gordy was very concerned about it. He thought it was going to be too controversial. It wasn't the kind of Marvin Gaye or the kind of Motown act in general that people were expecting. So it was a very bold move for Marvin Gaye to put that out. But like I said, it was very necessary. It was called for at that time.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [01:03:12] Right.
Dana Aritonovich [01:03:18] Okay, well, do you have any concluding words or any thoughts or anything else you'd like to share before we? Before we end?
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [01:03:26] That's about it.
Dana Aritonovich [01:03:28] Okay, well, great.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [01:03:29] Okay, what I need you to do is to email me because this is like 62 minutes.
Dana Aritonovich [01:03:34] Yes.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [01:03:34] If you email me your mailing address, I put it on a CD and send it to you.
Dana Aritonovich [01:03:39] Okay, great. And then what I'm going to also do, because since when we normally record these interviews, we normally do it in person. So we have the person sign a release form. And since this is by phone, I think what I'm going to do is I'm going to email you the text of the release form because it's not an interactive form. So I'm going to email it to you. And then if you could just, you know, like, you know, type on in your email, just say, you know, I, you know, I verify that. Oh, you know what? That's a good idea too. Yeah, duh. Why didn't I think of that? Okay, good. I'll send you. I'll send you the. Okay, yeah, that works too. Yeah, I think it's. I think it's easy. I think it's in a Word document form already. All right, that's cool.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [01:04:32] That'll work.
Dana Aritonovich [01:04:36] Okay, great. Yeah, if you have like a Mac or something, you can't print certain things out, but I'm pretty sure it's in a Word document. It's a very basic form. It's not fancy.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [01:04:44] So.
Dana Aritonovich [01:04:44] That would be great. That would be great. Thank you so much for your time. This was very enlightening. I mean, I got some great quotes from you that are going to be really helpful in my paper. So I thank you so much for taking this time out today to help me with this. So then I'm going to email you right now with my address and everything and with the release form, and then we'll go from there. So thank you so much. I appreciate your time.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [01:05:11] Okay.
Dana Aritonovich [01:05:11] And you enjoy the rest of your Sunday. Okay, thanks.
Lynn Tolliver Jr. [01:05:16] Bye. Bye.
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