Wayne Arneson and Gaile Schafer Interview, 2011

Abstract

Mr. Arneson and Ms. Schafer traced the history of the congregation from East 82nd. and Euclid Avenue to three independent Unitarian congregations in Cleveland Heights, Shaker Heights, and Rocky River. Details of Unitarian history dating back to the pilgrims were noted as well as Cleveland's churches beginning in the mid-1800's. The church focuses upon this world initiatives and multi-culture inclusion and acceptance. The social justice perspective drives their art activities within the community. The church is designed to accommodate frequent worship and exhibits as well as educational programs.

Interviewee

Arneson, Wayne (interviewee); Schafer, Gaile (interviewee)

Interviewer

Valore, Kenneth (interviewer); Lanese, James (interviewer)

Project

Sacred Landmarks

Date

6-15-2011

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

42 minutes

Recommended Citation

"Wayne Arneson and Gaile Schafer Interview, 2011" (2011). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 127003.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/365

Related Resources

Sacred Landmarks @ Cleveland Voices

Transcript

Wayne Arneson [00:00:00] Signature is okay. Print first and then sign. Okay?

Ken Valore [00:00:03] Right. And then we’ll have one for you too. Okay. My name is Ken Valore and I’m conducting an interview for the Center for Public History and Digital Humanities to document the history of West Shore Unitarian Universalist Church, located at 20401 Hilliard Boulevard, Rocky River, Ohio. So since we’re doing this, we have two people. Could you please state your name?

Gaile Schafer [00:00:41] My name is Gail Schafer. I’m the church historian.

Wayne Arneson [00:00:44] And I’m Reverend Wayne Arneson. I’m one of the co-ministers of the church currently.

Ken Valore [00:00:49] Great, great. So basically what we’re looking for is what instigated the creation of the church. I mean, that’s one question.

Wayne Arneson [00:01:04] I can start from my knowledge. My understanding is that the First Unitarian Church of Cleveland, which was located originally at East 82nd and Euclid, was looking at the changing demographic patterns of Cleveland. And their minister, Dr. Everett Moore Baker, was looking towards a future in which he saw very little possibility that the church would thrive if it stayed in the center city. And he believed that the church needed to honor the people who were coming all the way over from the western suburbs. There was a large enough contingent and that the church would also itself have to move further east. And so ultimately that’s what happened. The First Unitarian Church founded West Shore Church as a western mission and was very intentional around wanting to start it as a church that would have the capacity to sustain ministry and be a large church in and of itself. By our standards, a large enough church to sustain ministry and a staff and be as big as First Unitarian was. So that intention and identity was always a part of our beginnings. And the result was that the First Unitarian’s assistant minister, Wayne Chateau, became the first settled minister of our church. Dr. Baker is regarded as our founder, namesake of our social hall, but Dr. Chateau is our first settled minister. And so his picture and Dr. Baker’s hang in both congregations.

Gaile Schafer [00:02:56] There was a series of lectures. They held a series of five lectures on the west side to see what the response would be from people on this side to having a Unitarian church in this area. And it was-

Wayne Arneson [00:03:13] 1945.

Gaile Schafer [00:03:14] Yeah, 1945, because the church was established in 1946. And so they got about 150 people that they felt would be interested in having a church on this side of town. But it was, it came as a result of this lecture series with Dr. Baker and Wayne Chateau.

Wayne Arneson [00:03:39] The congregation when it was first founded met at the Lakewood Masonic Temple. And so that was our First Home and Rocky river at the time still had land that was transitioning from orchard and garden land to land that was being developed. And the opportunity to acquire the property that we’re on now came at a tax sale. And astute actions by a couple of lay members who, in fact, I think, took mortgages on their own properties to be able to guarantee the purchase made the purchase of the land possible. We had more land than building at the beginning. We built a modest hall for services and a few classrooms and an office here on this property in March of 1952.

Gaile Schafer [00:04:42] I think we started with three acres or something, didn’t we? Isn’t that what it said?

Wayne Arneson [00:04:46] 3.2 acres is the size of the property. So we’ve had some land to expand on, and we were able to expand to a suitable size sanctuary to house the congregation. That was coming in 1961. And that’s the basic shape of the property now, with a major renovation in 2005 that pretty much rebuilt everything except the sanctuary and the footprint of the original social hall.

Ken Valore [00:05:19] Who made up the laity and the clergy and the church? Who makes it?

Wayne Arneson [00:05:26] Who made or who makes it’s changed, made and makes.

Ken Valore [00:05:30] We were interested really in that transition.

Wayne Arneson [00:05:33] Well, let’s think about who the founders were. Where did they come from?

Gaile Schafer [00:05:38] You mean Chateau and Baker?

Wayne Arneson [00:05:40] Well, no, I mean the lay members who were motivated. I mean, where did the membership was drawn from? My perception is that a lot of the original members that were attending Unitarian Church downtown were people who were scientists from NASA. That was a major employer and also a source for members in the late ’50s and ’60s as NASA really became a big going concern as the space program took off.

Gaile Schafer [00:06:08] And it was mainly people, I would say, in Lakewood. I know people in Rocky River who attended the church at 82nd and Euclid before this church was built. They’re still coming to this church.

Wayne Arneson [00:06:19] Church.

Gaile Schafer [00:06:21] But I think it’s primarily people that lived in this area.

Wayne Arneson [00:06:25] Sixty percent of our membership is still Lakewood. We have six suburbs that we primarily draw from, but Lakewood is the one that we have the most members. People were educators, social workers in government service and medical. I think those are the major profiles.

Gaile Schafer [00:06:44] And that’s professional people, I would say, generally speaking.

Wayne Arneson [00:06:46] And that’s still been the case today. I think right now we’re aware that the largest minority on the west side of Cleveland is Hispanic. So we tried to be pretty intentional about cultivating relationships and sending signals that we’re really interested in having the church be a welcoming place for people who are of Hispanic origin. And that’s been, you know, slowly producing some members who have Hispanic surnames and starting to see some results.

Ken Valore [00:07:27] You know, just out of curiosity, you know, you’re. The church, the facade of the church that faces. Is there anything in the architecture related to.

Gaile Schafer [00:07:41] Yes, the architecture was Wallace Teare, who’s a very well known architect in the Cleveland area. T-E-A-R-E, Wallace Teare.

Wayne Arneson [00:07:50] And he was a member.

Gaile Schafer [00:07:52] He was a member. He designed it and he designed many other buildings in Cleveland and layouts in Cleveland.

Wayne Arneson [00:08:01] I think that Mr. Teare’s design was intended to be non-traditional and it was. His influences were actually, I think, Scandinavian architecture, Norwegian. I think his own inspiration for what this design might look like came from that direction. And of course there isn’t necessarily any particular relationship to Unitarian Universalism from that inspiration. It was a personal taste, but the look of the building was intended to convey that this was not a traditional congregation. So instead of the sharp angles and the steeple, we have this round design. The nickname, because the outside of the building was blue brick, was the great blue whale on Hilliard. And. But we’ve, you know, become accepted that landmark status, I guess, and have never had any desire to change the design. In fact, it was a lot of fun when the architect from city architecture, Chris Oval, did the work on redesigning the building. He went back to Wally Teare’s drawings. He was a big fan of his and he really wanted to try to maintain some of the same geometry and feel of Mr. Tear’s original design and. And I think he did a great job.

Ken Valore [00:09:27] Well, it’s unique.

Wayne Arneson [00:09:31] And it works great as a sanctuary. I have to say one of the things about contemporary religion is that there’s been a lot of interest in how you can use technology and worship. And a lot of our members over the years have appreciated that. We’ve had this great white wall at the front of the church without any permanently fixed art or architecture that really locks you in. So we’ve had a lot of different kinds of things that have hung in the front of the church. Art, various kinds of designs, fabric, banners. There’s a lot of flexibility. And now because we were able to have a projector installed in the ceiling, we can also use video and slides in the service. And the wall just works very well. And we can leave space there in the middle to be able to do that.

Gaile Schafer [00:10:20] People like that. And I think it’s- It gives a contemporary feel to the sanctuary should we so choose to use it on a Sunday morning. I have been in a church recently where the architecture does not allow you to do that. So they had a little screen over on the side, whereas we can use the entire front wall if we want to. But if we want to have an art project. A few years ago we had the Buddha project, which was wonderful. We had big, I think it was Batik Buddha, on cloth and various things throughout the sanctuary. So we, we- The sanctuary allows us to do, really decorate it however we want and use different media to do it.

Wayne Arneson [00:11:00] The church has always, I think, had a sense of wanting to be a home for the arts. That’s been a big driver in our identity. And so our music program and our aesthetics committee, our permanent collections committee, has tried to collect art, rotate art in regular shows, has encouraged the use of the building by the Rocky River Chamber Music.

Gaile Schafer [00:11:30] Plus, we’ve always had art shows here since way back, ’70s and ’80s. We would have a big April arts festival of music and various artists would come in and display their work. And so it’s something that we’ve been doing probably from the very beginning.

Ken Valore [00:11:44] Is that publicized? I mean, for the general public?

Wayne Arneson [00:11:47] You know, it is in the sense that it’s- We publicize it. To tell you the truth, we’ve had- We’ve been disappointed at the lack of response from the usual places that list art shows about listing something that’s an exhibit in a church. And so to tell you the truth, at this point, I think mostly we just publicize it through our media. And the artists are people who sometimes have a reputation in Cleveland that are our members, but others are members of our church who do it for their own enjoyment and have never had an exhibit.

Gaile Schafer [00:12:28] The congregation definitely enjoys it because we’ve always- That’s always something that we’ve done. So I think members of the congregation really appreciate seeing different kinds of art and expect it.

Wayne Arneson [00:12:39] I think the Buddha project that you mentioned was a Cleveland State Art Gallery show that had a number of different locations. And they used the Cleveland State Art Gallery downtown. And we were one of the exhibiting locations, west side location, and there were a couple of others. It was a big show that they mounted.

Ken Valore [00:12:58] I never- I mean, until you mentioned it. I didn’t know you had that on an annual basis.

Wayne Arneson [00:13:05] Yeah, no, there’s about five shows a year, actually. Yeah.

Ken Valore [00:13:11] How did Unitarianism- When did it start? How did it start? I mean, you know, not being Unitarian, I don’t know anything about it. So I’m just kind of curious.

Gaile Schafer [00:13:21] I mean, in Cleveland-

Ken Valore [00:13:24] The league ones are-

Wayne Arneson [00:13:26] Why don’t I do the big picture, and maybe you do Cleveland, okay? The church the Pilgrims founded when they landed in Plymouth is today a Unitarian Universalist Church. So as in history of institutional church in America, the congregations that are Unitarian Universalists go back to the beginning of the country and to the pilgrims desire to find a place where they could practice freely their religion. So the idea that religion unfettered by government interference and in a place where you are free to express yourself religiously goes back very deeply. Of course, the theology of the Pilgrims is not where we are now today at all. So there’s been a long evolution. That evolution is very first attached to the evolution of churches in New England, which were all congregationally organized, meaning that the local church is the highest authority in church governance. There isn’t a system of bishops recognition of a hierarchy outside of the local church insofar as there is a denomination. It’s one that the church has organized to fulfill needs and purposes that they cannot meet on their own. So it’s a cooperative association. 1790–1825, And around the Congregational churches of New England went through considerable turmoil around some theological issues related to the role and the person of Jesus Christ, whether the Trinity accurately reflected what the Bible said and how we were to understand Jesus as a teacher versus the the Son of God. So the Unitarian side of that controversy was founded around a belief in God as a unity and let go of the idea of God as a trinity. The Congregational churches that retain that idea are now part of the United Church of Christ. So they’re our first cousins, and the Baptists as well, other churches that have Congregational systems. So, and having started from this kind of schism, I think a struggle for us all the way along, ever since then has been when we did encounter theological division in our church, were we going to keep dividing and, you know, further schism, ever smaller units, or were we going to try to live and let live around certain kinds of theological divisions? And gradually, over the next century and a half, we made the live and let live decision to the point where in the 20s, we acknowledged and accepted that we were not going to enforce doctrinal uniformity in the church, particularly around even a Christian identity or even, although it was a while before this became settled in the church, a theistic identity. So the whole question of whether a religion needs to have doctrinal uniformity and the obvious belief in God as something that most people think religion is all about was put to the test in our church. And we decided that the answer was not necessarily. You could include Christians you could honor our Christian history and forms and identity and at the same time be inclusive of people who had a different source or background or identity, or who really appreciated the practices of particular religious traditions and incorporated them into their lives, but didn’t necessarily feel that they wanted to identify with that tradition in a full way. For example, we have plenty of people in our church who come from Jewish backgrounds or who practice Buddhist practices, meditation, or who are interested in Earth centered spirituality and may be attracted to reading or rituals that pagan or contemporary Wiccan philosophies undertake. And they can all find a home under this roof. So that’s the big picture in Cleveland.

Gaile Schafer [00:17:49] According to the only source that I have, Unitarianism came to Cleveland in 1836. And there was a series of traveling ministers who would come and preach sermons. It was different ministers, but they would come on Sundays and preach to anybody who had listened. In 1867, there was 40 Unitarians who organized the first Unitarian Society of Cleveland. And they bought property on Bolivar and Prospect. And that was eventually sold to Grace Episcopal Church. And they eventually bought the church on 82nd and Euclid. And it was incorporated in 1911 as the Unity Church, from which we are descended.

Wayne Arneson [00:18:44] There was a movement, a liberalizing movement in Unitarianism in the West. We were the west, of course, that was called the Unity Movement. And so this Unity name refers to something entirely different than the present Unity denomination. We have neighbors in Westlake, a Unity Church. And that’s a completely separate movement, even though there are several Unitarian churches in the west that have the Unity name. Go ahead, Gail. Do you need some water?

Gaile Schafer [00:19:14] No, sorry, I’m fine. So that was the church I was telling you before that we all came from. The First Church eventually became First Church. We merged with a Universalist church prior to that, and then it became First Church. They moved to Shaker. We were formed in 1946 and came to Rocky River. And the 82nd and Euclid Church remained the Cleveland Society. Is that right? And eventually the Cleveland Society moved to their present location in Cleveland Heights. And the church at 82nd and Euclid was given over to a Black congregation.

Wayne Arneson [00:19:56] Eventually, I guess, sold and torn down as the property was developed. Right. So some of the windows from the 82nd Street church are in the Western Historical Society museum.

Gaile Schafer [00:20:12] Tiffany windows.

Wayne Arneson [00:20:13] Yeah.

Ken Valore [00:20:14] Yeah. Well, as a matter of fact, we were talking about that with another church that’s by Church Square.

Wayne Arneson [00:20:25] That Church Square neighborhood. That’s the neighborhood. Yeah.

Ken Valore [00:20:28] Yeah. That has a lot of Tiffany.

Wayne Arneson [00:20:32] Right.

Ken Valore [00:20:40] If you walk into your church, what Are the impressions of the interior or what are its highlights? I guess one of the highlights would be that-

Gaile Schafer [00:20:49] It’s the rotunda.

Wayne Arneson [00:20:52] Yeah, it’s a very contemporary building. Now it’s just five years since we rebuilt it and part of our goal in rebuilding was to create a more welcoming, open, airy and light filled space. The old entrance led you into a fairly small foyer that led to the sanctuary, into the fireside room and to have the church have a center from which all the spokes of hallways radiate out. And to bring the church school classrooms closer to the front of the church so that they’re actually nearer the center too. The old design was because of the way it was built in sequence was kind of a long bowling alley of a hallway that had the classrooms off it.

Gaile Schafer [00:21:38] Was not particularly as welcoming as what we have now. And whether they come in by the there’s an entrance by the sanctuary or the other entrance off the parking lot, you are immediately you come into a much larger area. It leads people to various things, but it’s much more welcoming than it used to be.

Wayne Arneson [00:21:56] The central foyer is we call the Rotunda because it does have a great big glass dome over the top of it that is probably Italian in the whole idea of that in architecture, but it was a feature that Thomas Jefferson liked a lot and used in some of his designs. So I used to serve a congregation in Virginia and very familiar with his architecture. And the University of Virginia’s main building is called the Rotunda and that’s the term that we use for this Unitarian Universalist.

Ken Valore [00:22:32] Is that unique?

Wayne Arneson [00:22:34] Thanks for asking because I neglected to say something about that. And that’s. That’s your heritage, isn’t it, Gail?

Gaile Schafer [00:22:40] I was brought up a Universalist in the Boston area.

Wayne Arneson [00:22:44] So two different denominations with two different histories the and actually two different sort of class, social class foundations. The Unitarians in New England, because of the fact that they had come from the original settlers and their theologies had changed and conflicted and they had eventually settled into these two denominations, the Unitarians and the Congregationalists were very much the established intelligentsia upper class of Boston, often the church at the center of the town common. The Universalists came to their free thinking ways from a different doctrinal direction. They questioned the whole Calvinist idea of whether people who did not believe correctly in religion would be sent to hell and others would be saved and whether that would be a predestined thing. And there was nothing you could really do about it except find out whether you were saved or not saved. They rejected that idea. There’s a few key founding ministers who were English immigrants and in the late 18th century who came to America and started to preach this doctrine that they had developed in England that was based on universal salvation, the idea that the primary characteristic of God that we could know was love and that they were confident that God would ultimately save all people. They had some internal dissension and some theological disagreement about whether there was a process of remediation after death and did struggle with the question of evil in the world and what evil means and how evildoers are punished and whether that happens in this life or the next one. But ultimately their key doctrine was based around universal salvation. In the 19th century, actually, universalists were a very fast growing tradition in American history, American religious history, and universalism was really broadly accepted among more liberal Protestant denominations to the point where that growth curve for the denomination that carried that name started to drop off. And the Unitarians and the Universalists found themselves by the middle of the 20th century, you know, looking at each other down the block and seeing that they were competing for the same constituencies of members, the same kinds of people, and thought that it would be wiser to merge. And so we merged in 1961 and became the Unitarian Universalist Association. This is our 50th anniversary. The actual date was just a few weeks ago, 24th of May 19- 19- 2011.

Gaile Schafer [00:25:31] So all the churches had to vote. We voted in the ’80s to change our name from West Shore Unitarian Church to West Shore Unitarian Universalist Church.

Wayne Arneson [00:25:40] Now. Our small neighbor congregation in North Olmsted was originally a Universalist church. And there is a significant Universalist history associated with the first settlers, the farmers who settled in North Olmsted. And so there is a plaque at Columbia. And is it Columbia? I think so. Columbia and Lorain, that commemorates those Universalists. And on Porter Row, the North Olmsted Unitarian Universalist Church is, I think, the oldest church in continuous use. Maybe the west side or maybe in the area. I don’t know. It’s a lovely old wooden building.

Ken Valore [00:26:22] How have your beliefs basically affected the services the church provides to the community?

Gaile Schafer [00:26:36] The church- The services are never the same. It incorporates pieces of all religions really.

Ken Valore [00:26:42] No, I mean service to the community.

Wayne Arneson [00:26:46] Okay, sure.

Ken Valore [00:26:48] Not church services per se.

Wayne Arneson [00:26:51] Well, one of the slogans that you often hear our members comment on or try to embody is that we’re more interested in deeds, not creeds. So I think that there’s always been a sense that the church is here not only for the edification and community that the members find here. But it’s here to be of service. And it’s not unusual for churches to have that as part of their mission and whatever their theology. But because we’re more of a this worldly centered faith rather than next worldly, I think that we particularly feel an obligation and a certain sense of theological mission around trying to be of service.

Gaile Schafer [00:27:30] I think that there are many people who come here primarily to participate in social justice projects that we have here that have been ongoing, really since the church was founded. Which is why I wanted you to read that section in the blue booklet, because it gives a history of the various social justice things that we’ve been involved in. And it’s a huge variety, and it’s been ongoing from the very beginning. But I think there are many people who come here for social justice first, spirituality second.

Wayne Arneson [00:28:05] Or they find that the spiritual growth that they really are looking for is brought about through action rather than-

Gaile Schafer [00:28:17] They come here for social action, event or project that they want to be involved in. And they are very much drawn into the spirituality of the congregation. But they came in through the door of social justice and then became part of the whole congregation. I know a number of people who would fall into that category.

James Lanese [00:28:36] Could you give us a few examples of social events, social justice?

Gaile Schafer [00:28:43] Well, I mean, there’s a huge history of helping out with church with school desegregation, you know, going back in the ’80s and things like that. Big proponent of gay rights. And we became what our denomination refers to as a welcoming congregation in 1993, which means that we openly accept the gay community as members and participants in the congregation, which we state every Sunday.

Wayne Arneson [00:29:19] Some of the issues of pressing issues of the day, too. The congregation has usually taken aside and taken a stance on. So Gayle mentioned civil rights activity in the ’60s. The congregation has sort of a collective memory of the role we played in advocating for the freedom of people who are pro choice related to abortion to take advantage of services that are should be available and at reasonable cost and accessibility to everybody in the community. So strong actions around the time when Planned Parenthood first came to Rocky River. Let’s see, threads throughout decades. I think there’s always been a strong ministry around food and hunger that has also now lately been sort of transformed into something that’s interested in sustainable food. And so we’re seeing some combination of the sort of traditional feed the hungry motivation with the idea that sustainability can be created by what we do within our own backyards or in community gardens or in different food distribution systems.

Gaile Schafer [00:30:41] They Did a lot in the ’60s for the migrant workers in Ohio, raising money to make sure that they had enough food, things like that.

Wayne Arneson [00:30:49] We had a sanctuary experience in the ’80s with a Salvadoran family that lived in the building.

Gaile Schafer [00:30:57] Well, they lived with families. We had two different- They were part of the sanctuary program where I was like the Overland Railroad. We provided sanctuary for them while they were on their way to Canada. So we had- In the mid-’80s, we had two separate El Salvadorian families that we housed for a period of weeks until they could get, get their papers, whatever they needed to get to Canada.

Wayne Arneson [00:31:26] Some of that thread is really being picked up by an interest in the immigration issue today and how we advocate for and support either repeals of legislations that seem inappropriate as far as how the immigration problem should be addressed, and also be supportive of migrant communities that are trying to make a living here and find a path to citizenship. So that’s been an issue of concern recently.

Gaile Schafer [00:31:53] We did a lot for fair housing practices in the ’60s and ’70s. Members of this church got involved in making sure that it was possible for all people to get fair housing, which was a huge problem in Cleveland at the time.

Wayne Arneson [00:32:15] We had a particularly profound experience in the late ’60s or early ’70s when one of our church leaders who was active in fair housing to the point of being able to sell his house to an African American family minister.

Gaile Schafer [00:32:43] Actually-

Wayne Arneson [00:32:43] Yeah, his home was firebombed, and that was a frightening and, and very moving experience. No, it was in Fairview Park. The home was firebombed, not the church, but- But this guy was an immediate past president of the congregation.

Gaile Schafer [00:33:05] And the members of the church had been watching the house, and there was a period of, you know, at a time when there was a changing of the guard, it was left unattended, and that’s when they burned the house.

Wayne Arneson [00:33:18] Recently one of the things that our ministry has really encouraged and worked on as a steady internal process of social justice engagement has been what it means for a majority white congregation to be anti racist and anti oppressive. The criteria for how we do that is not necessarily judged by how many people of color are members of the church, but rather how you act in the world as an institution and as a community, as allies for communities of color and standing up against racism. What does that mean? How does that play out? So both educational service and policy opportunities to be able to try to make those ideals real in the world is something that we’ve been steadily involved in over the last decade.

Ken Valore [00:34:12] You mentioned education. Do you have a school?

Gaile Schafer [00:34:16] We have, you know, a child care center. Well, we have a child care center that’s housed in the building. Yeah, that is for, you know, infants through up to kindergarten. And we also have an after school program for children up to fifth grade who are bussed here from the local schools.

Wayne Arneson [00:34:39] And we also have a church school on Sunday morning, of course. So we have a full religious education program for all ages that’s built on a curriculum that’s mostly denominationally written and created, but sometimes original curriculum that we design here. So that’s always been part of the church, the original building.

Gaile Schafer [00:35:01] The antiracist thread really goes back to the 1940s when we were first established. By 1947 we had a group of teenagers. Our teenagers participated in it, but from other churches, temples, various other denominations participated in a choral reading group. The children would write a, do a service and then go around to the different churches and present it. But they were children of different races and different backgrounds that worked together as early as 1947 to the point where they were actually televised at the end. They run the same program as Eleanor Roosevelt. So the whole thread of trying to be an anti racist multicultural community and respect for other cultures goes back to the very beginning. We used to have a summer program for children that always studied people of another culture so that the children would learn about the Inuit, the Kung of the Kalahari Desert or, or just different groups, the Navajo and so forth. And we even created our own curriculum on the American Negro in the ’50s that was taught to all children. So it goes back. You know, we’re very active in trying to become an antiracist, multicultural, anti-oppressive community now. But we’ve actually [crosstalk] the threads, the seeds were sown from the very, very beginning.

Wayne Arneson [00:36:39] Yeah, just a word about the Childcare Center. It’s 25 years old now.

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