Abstract
St. James of Lakewood is located at 17514 Detroit Avenue. The church was built between 1920 and 1947 reflecting several prevalent European architectural and decor styles. The parish served the western Lakewood community for about one hundred years through its closing in 2008 by the Diocese of Cleveland. The parish closure is being appealed to the Vatican at this time. In the interview, too parishioners Toni Sabo and Joe Dwyer, describe the church building design, structure and interior decor. Additionally, they comment of the parish community, and its role in the neighborhood that it serves, as well as the effort to preserve the church and parish.
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Interviewee
Sabo, Toni (interviewee); Dwyer, Joseph (interviewee)
Interviewer
Lanese, James (interviewer); Valore, Kenneth (interviewer)
Project
Sacred Landmarks
Date
7-13-2011
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
60 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Toni Sabo and Joseph Dwyer Interview, 2011" (2011). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 127005.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/367
Transcript
Joseph Dwyer [00:00:02] Good morning.
James Lanese [00:00:02] My name is Jim Lanese, and I’m joined by Ken Valore to conduct an interview for the Center for Public History and Digital Humanities at Cleveland State University to document the history of St. James Church in Lakewood. The interview is being held at Toni Sabo’s home, located at 17500 Franklin Road in Lakewood. Could everyone please introduce yourself and comment on your connection to St. James Parish?
Toni Sabo [00:00:38] I’m Toni Sabo, and I’ve been a member of St. James for 42 years. And all my children were baptized there, received their first communion. So I have a long history.
Joseph Dwyer [00:00:52] My name is Joseph Dwyer. I’ve been- Well, I’ve been in the parish for 24 years, but really active for the last 15, 16 years. I just did a lot of things around the church, some maintenance. I worked on the grounds, helped with the different events that we had throughout the years. Actually, I was married there, and my daughter was baptized there, and my daughter went to school there before they merged and formed Lakewood Catholic Academy.
James Lanese [00:01:41] Continuing on that same theme of your past connections with St. James, could you comment on your knowledge of the history of St. James when its original inception and what you know about how it grew up here in Lakewood?
Joseph Dwyer [00:02:06] Well, I think it starts first with Father Leahy, who came from Tiffin, Ohio, and he went to Georgetown University. Was it Georgetown? Yeah, I think it was Georgetown University, which was kind of unusual back then for, I think, for people to just jump into college. But six years later, he became a priest, and he kind of bounced around for a couple years. He was in a parish near Tiffin. He was in a parish near Mount Vernon, Ohio, and then he was at a pair, and then he was at St. Pat’s on Bridge. And St. James was formed in 1908, but it was because of the migration out of the center city, populations moving west along Detroit Avenue and Lakewood becoming a bigger city. Lakewood didn’t really become a city until 1911, which means that there wasn’t more than 5,000 people living here. So. And. But in 1908, they could see the expansion coming, and they. They found a new need for a newer church, and he went. And where they first started in a storefront on 156th and Detroit, a founding of 50 families. And it started growing from there. And then they found that they had a need for a new church. They moved. They kept. Well, they moved west to where they are on Detroit at Granger. And Father Leahy picked that position because right at Granger, Detroit kind of jogs and forms a viewing point from- As you’re coming down Detroit from the east, going west, the church kind of bumps out there because of the angle of Detroit. The first building that they built was what they used as the gym, and that was in 1913. And they attached a school to it. 19, was it 25? They started building on the existing church that we have now. And it was built in stages. The basement was built first, and they had church in there for about 10 years. And interestingly, the basement and as it was going, you’re looking back at 1925 and then moving in toward the Depression. Even though the church was growing, the Depression was looming and they continued building, and the basement had a roof over it before they were able to build the upper part of the church. The upper part of the church is actually built over it. And they started building that. And even during the Depression, Father Leahy continued to build. I might have to go back first where Father Leahy got his inspiration for wanting to build this new church. They had an architect by the name of E. P. T. Graham [Edward T. P. Graham], who was a leading architect at the time from Boston, and he came in and talked with Leahy. And then they went to Europe, and they traveled around Europe looking at different examples of churches. And when they got to Sicily, Father Leahy was quite moved, I think, by a number of churches within Sicily, but Monreal in Palermo being the one that I think really moved him the most. So St. James interior is modeled very much with the influence of Monreal. The church continued to be built during the Depression. It was hard times, but he wanted to keep continuing and keep people working. He kind of cajoled a lot of the contractors to be able to have time payments down the road instead of having to pay them now, and he was able to do that. The interior continued to be built for another 20 years. The interior wasn’t completed until about 1947, where the back wall of the sanctuary was finally painted, where it shows the 12 apostles and very much in a Byzantine style, which kind of mingles with the Sicilian Romanesque style and the Moorish style. There’s just so many different influences.
James Lanese [00:07:45] Could you comment a little bit on the congregation? Who made up the congregation during that period of time? Was it ethnically connected at that time?
Joseph Dwyer [00:07:54] Yes. I mean, Cleveland was quite a melting pot at that time with many European influences. The two greatest was the Irish and the German population in Cleveland at that time. And at that time, we had a German bishop, Bishop Horstmann, and an Irish pastor, first generation. Father Leahy at that time, when the church was being formed Bishop Horstmann talked to Father Leahy and said that he had hoped that St. James wouldn’t become another ethnic parish, but a Catholic church, or that it would become a church inclusive to all Catholics. And I think that was and had been the hallmark of St. James. Yes, it had a lot of Irish in the. In the congregation, but it also had many other people for a long time, even up to when we were suppressed. But through that time, I mean, it really grew. And out of St. James, when you’re looking back, the migration of the central city expanded out, kept moving out, and it had so many families at that time, into the late 20s and even into the 30s. I think St. Christopher was St. Christopher, St. Luke’s and St. Clement’s all were, if you will, carved out of the population of the congregation of St. James. St. James was just a monster church at that time. It was just a big church. And when you look back, too, in 1947, once that church was completed, it was considered the cathedral of Lakewood. Many of us consider it still.
James Lanese [00:10:24] But now, as far as surrounding or connecting or adjacent parishes, it sounds like the St. James was developing and growing at the same time that some of the Birdtown related churches.
Joseph Dwyer [00:10:44] Yeah, Lakewood was building. Like I said, 1911 was the year that St. James or that Lakewood became a city. And as right now, Lakewood is the most densely populated city in the state of Ohio. For its size, it’s the most densely populated city of its size between New York and Chicago. So when you look back then, it was bisected with the streetcars radiating out of downtown Cleveland and expanding out. I mean, the electric streetcar system went all over the state. It was an amazing transportation system. The population kept growing, and that’s what kind of fueled the continuation and the building of St. James into the late 20s. It was a tremendous influx of people moving out of the city through the ’20s, and that kind of forced the growth of another parish.
James Lanese [00:11:58] Mm. We’d like to turn our attention to the actual structure of the church. You alluded to its inspiration through Father Leahy and the architect, Graham. Could you elaborate that a bit? First of all, from the exterior perspective, describe it. What- How did it influence and what were its meanings as far as the congregation and the local community was concerned?
Joseph Dwyer [00:12:33] Well, if I can just kind of- I’ll just quote an interpretation of the story as told in art. And it was the story of St. James and the symbolism of St. James by a fellow by the name of F. R. Weber. And now this is from 1930s publication, and it was produced to celebrate the addition of the artwork to St. James, which is most amazing. If I can, I’ll just read this first paragraph because I think this really is very powerful. In Lakewood, Ohio, is one of the best examples of church art in Greater Cleveland and for that matter in the entire country. Not only is it noteworthy because of its great artistic beauty, but what is more important, its interior has that elusive quality known as devotional atmosphere. Students of Christian art, whether they be Catholic or non-Catholic, will find this new church unique in that it is perhaps the most complete example of the use of Christian symbolism in existence. We can recall no church in America and none in Europe in which so comprehensive a scheme of symbolic decoration has been carried out. And it’s also included on the outside. I mean you’re just- When you come upon the outside of St. James Church, one, it’s a very imposing, incredible architectural jewel. The lofty facade and the unusual design for the church was done in Sicilian Romanesque style. And is done as well as that church was done is very rare. It took over 10 years just to build the church, but over 20 years just to complete the interior of the painting, which was all hand-painted. No stencils were involved. And I might add, when it was being built, the beams that were part of the ceiling, if you look back, I mean, we have some pretty snapped together scaffolding for construction these days, back then it was all wood. It has been noted Fr. Leahy kept a close eye on everything; he would very often climb up the scaffolding just to check to see if the work was being done the way he expected it to be done. Even the tops of the beams that stretch from side to side, that would be where the cove molding would be. He inspected that and made sure don’t were even painted. So he was quite specific on how he wanted this church to look. The church itself is just built with quality materials that can’t be used today because of the cost. The church at the time was. Was built for about five hundred and some thousand dollars. And at that time, the bishop at the time didn’t want to spend any more than $500,000 on a church. Now you look back in the ’20s, a half a million dollars was a lot of money. I mean, this was before income tax. I think income tax came in at what, ’27 or so? Something like that. But the quality of the materials is what really sets St. James apart, there’s over different 11 types of marble on the interior. There’s 16 columns that hold up the ceiling. It’s just an incredible space. Out of those 16 columns, eight out of them are made out of Porta Santa marble. And Porta Santa marble was only quarried in ancient times from the island of Chios in Greece. These columns were brought here from Italy. So they were probably taken apart from a structure back then. And I think Father Leahy was an early proponent of the green use of recycling. But. And it was noted, too, with the early notes of the church being built, about how. How dirty the columns were and they were nicked. I mean, you can see different places in the columns where they were kind of patched to blend in with the colors. There’s marble. Some of the marble that’s inside is found nowhere else, especially in this city. And there’s- That had been noted many times by Tim Barrett, who we spoke of before. He’s just quite authority. They brought some fellow in from the Cleveland Museum of Natural History to look at the marble also and just remarked on the uniqueness of it. The craftsmanship is just not done today. It’s just not done today. Should I continue on the interior?
James Lanese [00:18:35] Go right ahead.
Joseph Dwyer [00:18:39] The windows were done - what was his name? - were done by a fellow from Pennsylvania. And at the time he was an artist, a painter also, but he also had a design studio where he created stained-glass windows. And he did all the 16 stained-glass windows that are in the church. They’re beautiful. When you come into the church, you’re just overwhelmed with the amount of color, some of which is the red, and of course, the different influences, from Sicilian Romanesque to Moorish to even Celtic design on the baptismal font and the two air grates that are up on the sanctuary. And somehow they all work together. You have to be in there for a very long time to really see and discover all the symbolism that’s in there. As you come in, the front doors, which are over 15, about 15 feet high, they’re bronze. The two outside center doors have the symbolism of the four Gospels. And the two end doors have the traditional symbol of St. James, which is a sword. And that’s on the handles. The handles are long handles, and there’s like an inverted sword that comes down, and that’s found around in the church. Also, the symbol of a clamshell is found. That’s a symbol of St. James because that’s what he used for doing baptism back in the early days. Once you’re inside the church, and you step into the main aisle, and you turn around. The whole back wall is carved oak. And that was done by the Liturgical Arts Guild of Cleveland Wood carvers that were in the city. In the city at the time. It’s one of the most amazing examples of wood carving outside of St. Stephen’s which has a lot of. Oh, it’s all- It’s all German wood carving. But it took over a year to create that. And above that wall was the choir loft. And that’s where the organ used to be before they moved it up into the sanctuary. The amount of marble that’s used in there is just incredible because of the different styles and the different colors. Up on the left side of the sanctuary is Mary’s altar. And the statue of Mary is comprised of maybe five different colors of marble. And it’s built on the wall. Basically, it’s built in- The marble that’s used for the altar is an onyx marble, which has. If you would, you cut it in half. And then they were like a mirrored image of this. I don’t know. It might be in that book. Toni. Same as St. Joseph’s altar. His statue is carved out of marble, which is kind of unusual because a lot of churches have freestanding statues. Like I said, all Those statues in St. Stephen’s Church are carved oak. And then most of the other ones would be plaster. But St. James really only had three statues. Mary’s altar, St. Joseph’s altar. And in the back, there was a Mary’s chapel or a devotional chapel where you can light votive lamps. And that’s an exquisite carving back there. And then the pulpit also had a representation of St. Peter and St. James. But that was kind of just like a relief sculpture. Really wasn’t any full body sculpture. The church is pretty much untouched from as far as remodeling or changing it from the way it looked when it was built. Except for after ’72, they turned. Most of the churches had a different altar turned around facing the congregation. And it was brought away from the old main altar, which was on the back wall of the sanctuary, the sanctuary of which is the largest of any church in Cleveland. The acoustics are second to none. It’s probably one of the finest acoustical sounding buildings in the city. If I can go back to the windows, there was three very large rosette windows, one of which is above the main doors on the south side of the church, which is Detroit. And it’s an incredible use of color and the wheel or the shape that this window is. In that particular design is found throughout the church. There’s brass filigree that are attached to the doors on the inside of the church, which are covered with leather and have brass decorative tacks or nail heads holding it on. But the brass filigree at the bottom of each door is the same design as the three large rosette windows, the one on the front. With the use of many colors, there are 12. I forget how many different sections of the window there are, but there are 12 of them that at each end has a symbol of one of the apostles. And again throughout the church, there’s just symbolism of so much of not only saints and holy people of the church that have gone before us, but of what our faith is and what it represents. So at the very tips of this window, these windows here are symbols of the twelve apostles. As you go up toward the sanctuary, the church is built in a cruciform form, the shape of a cross. And on either side, on one side is where we have the choir. And it interesting because at St. James you could actually sit up there. And a couple of times the assistant priest, Father Jim Klein, would make comments to let people know that there’s plenty of box seats still open up front if you want a good seat. He’s a big Indians fan. But in those two spaces on that soaring wall, the windows there are just really very magnificent. At the top, there’s two on either side. There’s a rosette window on either side with just. The main color is just cobalt blue. Cobalt blue was made with- You’ll never get that type of color anymore because there was a lot of chemicals used in the glass making process to get. Get these colors, as was a lot of glazes for different pottery, they just- You can’t do it anymore because it’s- The chemicals are just so unfriendly to not only people, but the environment- And there’s times during the day where the- If you’re there early on the east side of the church, there’s just a whole wash of color, like a whole haze of blue that just washes over- It’s just incredible.
James Lanese [00:28:04] Sounds like it.
Joseph Dwyer [00:28:05] Or during the day, later in the day, like a five o’ clock mass on a Saturday, you go in there and it would be on the other side, and it’s just breathtaking. Just takes you away. The lamps- The lamps or the chandeliers, if you will, that are the main lights of the church, the sanctuary lamp that holds the candle that’s always lit, showing the presence of Christ in the Eucharist. In the tabernacle and the top of the baptismal font were all created by Rose Iron Works here in Cleveland. And the sanctuary lamp is noted for its just exceptional quality and uniqueness and doesn’t detract any from any of the other design in the church. It just is incredible. Even the chandeliers, the shape, how do I explain it? The framework of the lamp is made almost within the same shape of what I mentioned before, of that filigree at the bottom of the doors and the design of the rose windows. So there’s a complementary use of design throughout, but yet with different symbolisms. A meaning of different symbolisms. I can probably talk a week or a good couple hours about a lot of the different symbolisms that are in the church. But it’s just again, we can recall no church symbolism in existence in which so comprehensive a scheme of symbolic decoration has been used. And that’s St. James. So.
James Lanese [00:30:12] Was the architect involved with both interior and exterior design?
Joseph Dwyer [00:30:17] Oh, yeah, yeah. If you look at St. James the way you’re describing, yeah. And if you look at St. James and if you go to St. Ignatius on West Boulevard, you’ll see a very similar use of design because he was also the same architect for St. Ignatius. And there’s a couple of really remarkable early drawings of what they wanted a church to look like. And the earlier drawings, again by this E. P. T. Graham [sic], he was really noted for a lot of his grand Gothic looking architecture. And what they wanted to use for St. James, they didn’t want that Gothic architecture. I mean, that was like last century. Now they wanted to use something with kind of like a new modern type of look. Not modern in the sense of, as we know, as modern as Deco or anything, but modern in the sense of using the influences of architecture of the past. So they incorporated these different influences like St. James, I mean, Sicilian and Romanesque, the Moorish architecture with the arches and the mosaics of the tile that’s on the church. When you first look at the church, you really don’t see it all. But once you start, you take your time and look. There is just a lot of detail that shows up not only in the outside of the church, but of course the inside.
James Lanese [00:32:06] You had mentioned that the growing population that fostered the growth of St. James from roughly 1920 onward had likewise given birth to a few local parishes.
Joseph Dwyer [00:32:31] Yeah, they splintered out just to kind of- Because they were also moving west across the river too, formed St. Chris.
James Lanese [00:32:38] But in light of this church and its unique features, architecturally speaking, structurally speaking, and so forth comment a little bit on that community as you know it or know of it over time. How large did it get? Unique aspects of St. James as a parish, perhaps in the neighborhood.
Toni Sabo [00:33:12] We were very rich in ministries. We had a lot of ministries over the years. And first of all, we had an excellent school at that educated thousands of students in the three basic Rs as well as in their religion. We had a wonderful daycare center that was award-winning and that was open to not just to Catholics but to the whole community. So we were very proud of that.
Joseph Dwyer [00:33:40] Yeah. It was in conjunction with the city using the family room for counseling for different people that had different problems.
Toni Sabo [00:33:52] Right. And we served community meals for the broader community, people who were perhaps on fixed incomes.
Joseph Dwyer [00:34:01] So that, you know, we did that for 11 years. We were the only Catholic church that did that in Lakewood until they moved it to St. Luke’s.
Toni Sabo [00:34:13] And we had ministries such as Stephen Ministry, which was- Parishioners were trained to be like supportive counselors or friends to people who were having emotional or some sort of spiritual crisis because of a divorce or whatever. So we reached out to those people. We had many, many programs for the children. Boy Scouts, our Boy Scout troop was over 75 years old. It was the longest standing Boy Scout troop in the area also had Girl Scouts, Brownies, Cub Scouts, athletic programs for the kids. So many, many programs. We had many renewals for men and women to come together on weekends. A retreat-like situation where they could renew their relationship with God. We had Vacation Bible School for the kids. We had many educational programs. Just a rich variety of Catholic fair.
Joseph Dwyer [00:35:16] For all ages, visiting the sick, visiting the elderly. There was eucharistic ministers that took communion to parishioners that couldn’t come to church. And at the time too, if I could say, Toni St. James had the largest boundaries of any church within Lakewood. It also had the highest percentage of people that could walk to church because Lakewood is a very walkable community. And so within that area, there was more people within that area that could walk to St. James that didn’t have to drive.
Toni Sabo [00:36:03] We had about approximately 1500 families.
Joseph Dwyer [00:36:07] At the end. At the end, we had over 200, 220 some families just within the last year or so before we closed.
Toni Sabo [00:36:15] So we were growing.
Joseph Dwyer [00:36:18] There’s a lot of younger people moving into Lakewood. They’re realizing the value of the homes here. The unique accessibility not only to downtown but to the highway. We’re a lakefront community. We live closer to the lake than some lakefront communities. There’s a wide variety of beautiful homes. We’re close to the valley, and I like to think too, we’re close to the airport. I mean, if you’re traveling, I mean, it’s pretty easy access. The amount of ministries, though, I mean, I’d have to look at the list because I can’t remember them all, but there was at least 30 or more.
Toni Sabo [00:36:56] Oh, yeah.
Joseph Dwyer [00:36:56] That comprised a lot of variety of not only help within the parish family, but within the parish community and the community of Lakewood.
Toni Sabo [00:37:11] I think our Saint Vincent de Paul was a wonderful group.
Joseph Dwyer [00:37:14] Yeah, it was one of the. That was the largest one in Lakewood. So any if any, St. Vincent de Paul Society.
Toni Sabo [00:37:19] Right. If anyone, you know, needed help with material things, like they would call the church and then the St. Vincent de Paul people would go out and interview them and try to help them meet their needs, you know, whether it’s with paying a utility bill or finding some furniture or getting food or whatever you know, they needed for themselves or their families. So that was- That was many, many years.
Joseph Dwyer [00:37:44] Yeah, very much so. Up to the end. I mean, all this happened and continued up to the weekend that we were shut down.
James Lanese [00:38:06] This is obviously a very emotional topic, but with respect to closing, what- Comment on your understanding from several perspectives, what prompted the selection of St. James to close within the Lakewood community? And again, understanding that-
Joseph Dwyer [00:38:33] We’re still trying to figure that out. We’re still trying to figure that out. St. James had the most marriages, the most baptisms, the most confirmations, the largest PSR class, which was the education of Christian doctrine to kids that didn’t go to Catholic schools, and the highest mass attendance rate of any church in Lakewood. We were solvent. We had the most ministries. We had the largest church. I don’t know if that was the liability or not. To me, it wasn’t- I mean, this church represented so much of what my understanding of my faith is. And I was reminded by it, in August, and of it by the use of the symbolism within that church. So I think Tony and I both agree. I mean, and a lot of us within the community of St. James, that we’re still scratching our heads and still trying to figure out why.
Toni Sabo [00:39:40] You know, the generic, the generic excuse was that there were fewer priests and people were moving to the further suburbs. But why they would pick St. James to close over the other ones is a mystery we don’t understand. And we put struggling with that for a year.
James Lanese [00:40:00] Technically, the formula for closing is that parishioners of St. James would merge with surrounding parishes that remain open.
Joseph Dwyer [00:40:08] Yes. Which some did, most didn’t. And not just within St. James, but within a lot of the churches that were closed. People didn’t go. They just refused. I mean, I’ve been. And I’ve been meeting and talking to people. Toni, too. We run into different parishioners at different places, and they say we’re still- We’re roaming Catholics. We’re still trying to find where we need to be. You go to other places you’re not comfortable. St. James was such a welcoming community, a community so rich in just so much of what it means to be a parish family. And the closing of St. James just didn’t damage the community of Lakewood. It destroyed the community of the families that were in St. James. Generations of people that still go there or that went there. The migration of parishioners, I’m pretty sure. I mean, I haven’t seen- I’ve seen some statistics, but people just have not gone to these other churches that we were expected to go to. Most of the ones that went were the families that had children at Lakewood County Catholic Academy. They were pretty much forced out. About seven months before St. James even closed, they were kind of issued an order to, you better sign up at one of these other churches if you want your voucher at Lakewood Catholic Academy. And that was the merger of St. James, St. Luke’s and St. Clement’s so a lot of the families that had children at St. James in grade school, at the school were very much compromised to sign up at these other churches in order to get a voucher for the tuition at the school. Very disturbing.
James Lanese [00:42:36] Now, could you comment on the entire, the status of the entire physical structure of the parish now? You have focused obviously on the church in the past. There are other facilities. There’s a school there. There’s probably a rectory.
Joseph Dwyer [00:43:00] Yes.
James Lanese [00:43:01] What is their status right now? Are they basically mothballed? Or how-
Joseph Dwyer [00:43:06] Pretty much, yeah. I mean, the rectory is a beautiful structure. Could have housed about, I think, maybe eight. Eight people in there. It’s a very beautiful structure. So there’s the rectory. The school is still being used by the countywide program known as pep, Positive Education Program. So they’ve been leasing the school for the last six, seven years.
Toni Sabo [00:43:33] Six or seven years.
Joseph Dwyer [00:43:36] The old convent, which is on the north side of the church on Northwood, on the north side of Northwood, which also had a chapel and, excuse me, then had daily, had two masses daily in it, which that was also closed, but that’s what housed the daycare. St. James Daycare, which was a blue ribbon award-winning daycare that was run through St. James that we talked about before. All the buildings are in good shape. All of our buildings are being used and the chapel, the convent is still being used. The chapel is no longer. You’re not allowed to use it. It’s being used as a storage space. I understand now, but the school is still being used. And all of them were in good shape when this closing took place. The Lakewood fire department went around to all these buildings, all the churches in Lakewood and St. James was found to be in the best shape in regards to the amount of violations of safety codes or whatever. So, I mean, that’s part of the mystery. The biggest problem was with the roof, and it had never been addressed properly through the years. Tile roof in a climate like Cleveland is very difficult because of the extremes of weather that we have. Should I go on? I mean, the upper roof being tile, and then there’s two side roofs on either side of the church. And a lot of the times it was the late spring snows, the heavy snows that we would have. You’d get a nice warm day above freezing. And if there was a heavy layer of snow on the roof, it would- The tiles would heat up. That snow would just slide off the roof and slam down onto the lower roof. And it caused damage through the years. And I mean, if I could just make my view known, is that that roof was never repaired properly. I mean, if you’re a roofer and if you’ve got problem with the roof and you want to fix it, you also have to understand what’s causing the problem. What was causing the problem is just as I said, the avalanche of snow and ice that would slam on the lower roof. So what do you do? Well, you put a snow fence up on the roof. It’s a small, low railing, if you will, maybe a couple rows of layering. So if the snow does slide down slowly, it would kind of just get hung up on the fence and then just slowly melt into the gutters, which are all copper. Or if it slid down fast, it would just be shredded by ramming through this railing and it would disperse it so it wouldn’t just slump down as a big avalanche. And that never happened until the very end when- And Tom Mullen, who was president of Catholic Charities, made sure that that took place and that was fixed.
Toni Sabo [00:47:20] That was after the closing of the church.
Joseph Dwyer [00:47:21] That was after the church closed. But other than that, I mean, that was really the only big problem is that it was just never addressed properly.
James Lanese [00:47:37] So the status of the property right now with the church being closed is it remains closed to the public. There’s no access to the church itself and access to other facilities as they are in use, as you mentioned. And now with respect to an appeal to the closing, and everything is due to stay status quo through the ultimate.
Toni Sabo [00:48:10] Hearing, they can’t sell anything or change anything or remove anything from the church as long as we’re in appeal. So that’s.
Joseph Dwyer [00:48:19] Although that has happened to some of these churches, there’s some churches that are in appeal that things have been taken from them. And that’s to totally against canon law.
Toni Sabo [00:48:28] But as far as we know, St. James is still intact. Nothing’s been removed.
Joseph Dwyer [00:48:33] Like I said, I mean, there’s no freestanding statues. Everything is kind of built in. I mean, it’s. The statues of Mary and Joseph are actually part of the wall behind it, which is also marble.
James Lanese [00:48:51] Was there ever any comment or speculation as to what would happen to the property should the closing of the parish be finalized?
Joseph Dwyer [00:49:05] Just sale or just hearsay? Yeah, no, nothing.
Toni Sabo [00:49:11] No plan.
Joseph Dwyer [00:49:12] There really is no other specific use for this building because of the uniqueness of architecture that it is. It’s a church. It’s not a brewery, it’s not lofts, it’s not apartments. It’s a church that has no other purpose, no other use other than that. Whereas some of them are then kind of recycled as such or torn apart on the inside and made to use as gyms, gymnasiums for these new charter schools that are going into a number of them. St. James was built for a reason, as a church, and one of the most spectacular churches not only in this city, but in this country.
James Lanese [00:50:03] Now, one of the last things I have in my notes here is, goes back to the community. You had mentioned that upon, or most recently, that the community surrounding the church here is still very vibrant, It’s consistent.
Joseph Dwyer [00:50:20] It has, but I think it’s been very affected. When you take away a rock of a community like St. James or St. Pat’s that’s the stabilization of a community. This is the spiritual home of a lot of people. This is a place where people can find refuge, peace, tranquility, a purpose for their faith. Once you take away a stability of a community, the community becomes destabilized. And that’s not only happening here, but in the city of Cleveland too. I think Lakewood is not quite as extreme as maybe some of the neighborhoods of. It’s not as extreme as the neighborhoods of Cleveland. There is no comparison I don’t think of the community of St. James within the community of Lakewood, because Lakewood is a unique community. It’s a walking community. Again, this building was built for a reason and the people were there to support it and have supported it for all these years.
James Lanese [00:51:52] Ken, you have no-
Joseph Dwyer [00:51:56] Some of the other windows, if I may. Sure. In regards to the interior. There is another unique element within the interior of St. James which is, I don’t think found anywhere else, of course, and I don’t know of any, and I don’t know if anybody else has ever seen it either. But the ceiling above the sanctuary, which would be above the altar, is an incredible blue color with the design of the zodiac within the ceiling. And you kind of find that kind of an unusual type of thing. But again, all part of the symbolism of St. James. The zodiac and the constellations are kind of symbolism that Christ is ruler of all. There’s a symbolism of a dove up in the star up in the constellations, which is the symbolism of the Holy Spirit. It’s divided into 12 months for the astrological signs. It’s divided into four seasons. And the stars in the constellation are similar to what the stars were found at the birth of Christ. One of the rings which is in the design of the zodiac. I don’t know if you can see it on the picture. If you look at it, it looks like dots, but they’re actually little triangles. And there’s 365 of those. So. So you have the 12 months of the year, the four seasons, 365 of those, representing 365 days of the year. I talked of the beams before that go into the COVID molding. The space between each of the beams has symbols that were painted on the molding. There’s along. There’s kind of an oval shape and then a round medallion circle shape and then another oval shape within those oval shapes. Let’s start on the Mary side of the altar. In between those beams. From the front to the back of the church, there are 26 different symbolisms of different female saints. On St Joseph’s side, there are 26 different symbols of male saints. 52 weeks of the year. There are seven different styles of star or of crosses that are found within the church. The colors that are used in the church are representing, like red, the royalty for Christ. The gold is just the use of the gold is just the glory of the life. The. But the zodiac, I think, is probably one of the most unusual things that you might find within any church. But within St. James. It all seems to work when you come in and you first look and you just see so much going on, but yet it all comes together the longer you’re in there. And it’s just a transcending place. Once you enter, you know you’re someplace different. You know you’re someplace special that is giving honor and glory to something far above this mortal world. In the sanctuary itself, again, part of the stained glass windows, below the blue windows, the big rosettes on either side. On Mary’s side, there are 12 pictures, if you will, within the windows, representing 12 female saints, virgin martyrs of the church, or founders of orders of the church. On St. Joseph’s side, there are 12 different pictures or representations of founders and doctors of the church. And behind the main altar and the sanctuary, there’s stained glass windows there that represent the joyous mysteries of the rosary, the glorious mysteries of the Rosary and the sorrowful. The sorrowful mysteries of the Rosary. And the details, the design, the colors are just unbelievable. And they’re just very, very powerful, Very powerful. The old main altar is all marble also. And unless you would see it, I mean, the details that are on it, there’s four small brass reliefs representing the four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Again, the symbols of those four are throughout the church. The marble is just an incredible design with carvings. Up in the sanctuary, too, they moved the baptismal font. And just for an example of cost, here you have this incredible baptismal font with brass and stainless steel top, which kind of rotates to open up for the sacrament of baptism to be used. It’s used for the sacrament of baptism. The piece itself was carved in Italy, and I think it’s just. It was a big chunk of marble. And then, of course, the top that was built, that was created by the Rose Ironworks, just that baptismal font at the time. You go find the marble, you carve the marble, you transport it from Italy to here. It costs $350, all the marble in the church. And there is an incredible amount of marble in the church. Even the capitals above the columns all have representative four heads of different holy people, saints, doctors, writers of the church. There’s 16 columns, so there’s four heads on each, except. So there’s 60, because two of them butt up to the wall. So there’s only three. There’s 60 different heads that are carved into the marble of the capitals, which are also carved in Italy and then brought here again. I mean, this is a church that was built for a reason. A church like this will never be built again. A church like this should stay and be an example not only of architecture, but the uniqueness of what our Catholic faith is with the use of symbolism that is found within its interior. Every bit of detail was put there for a reason. And we owe it all. We owe it all to Father Leahy and his vision.
James Lanese [00:59:57] And I don’t know if we picked that up. How long did Father Leahy live? How long was he-
Joseph Dwyer [01:00:06] 1930. Let’s see. He became a priest. 1896, he became the pastor of St. James, the new founding pastor of St. James. In 1908, 1931, he was endowed with the degree of Bachelor of Fine Arts from Georgetown University. I may be mistaken. Bachelor of Fine Arts, a degree from Georgetown University. And that was in recognition of his hard work, dedication, and the creation of St. James. And he had hoped that this would be a church as a destination for people to come to. 1938, he was made a- No, in 1936, he was made a monsignor. I think. 1938, he was given the degree, and then he died in 1941. He was born in Tiffin, Ohio, from- He grew up on a farm. And all of these brothers and sisters became professional people in some way. Doctors, lawyers. Interesting to note in the early years of the rectory- Not the rectory that’s there now, but the early years, the housekeepers at the rectory were his two sisters. And I’d like to think that they also contributed to the unique design and understanding and the use of symbolism within this church. They were both very studied students of art and music, the two sisters, as was Father Leahy. It was noted that he had many books of architecture and artwork within his collection within the rectory. So this was a studied priest and a studied student of architecture to understand, to find the greatest use that he could to create a church like St. James and a church that has perhaps the finest use of Christian symbolism not only in this country, but perhaps all of Europe. So it’s a mystery still why a church like this was closed instead of heralding it as a unique example of not only architecture, but the quality of respect for the use of symbolism and of our Catholic faith. So hopefully we’re very hopeful that logic will overcome lack of understanding of the importance of this church and this church is reopened.
Toni Sabo [01:03:30] Yes, we have complete faith that we will be reopened one day. I think that that’s- It’s- It’s just too important of a place to remain shuttered.
James Lanese [01:03:44] Okay, any, anything else you’d like to add, closing thoughts or comments?
Toni Sabo [01:03:56] I know I just think that St. James has been, not just the building, but the whole community has been so important to this end of Lakewood. I think that Lakewood wouldn’t be where it is today without its influence. And I just feel that it is our hope that. That we will reopen and we will once again be a great community and be a beacon of light to our community.
Joseph Dwyer [01:04:27] Lakewood is because of St. James, and St. James is because of Lakewood and is because of Lakewood. And again, yeah, I mean, this was a parish family that was very giving, that just contributed so much, not just to the community of St. James, but the community of Lakewood. It was such a big part of Lakewood for so many generations that to close this building and to ignore the importance of its presence within a community like Lakewood, especially with the population that we have here, is just so- Just very un- I just can’t understand. I can’t understand it. It’s not just a building. It’s a purpose, it’s a reason, it’s an anchor, it’s a rock, it’s a place of refuge, it’s a place of faith, it’s a place of hope, it’s a place of comfort, it’s a home, and it feeds people. There was a town hall gathering that we had after we were told we were going to close. And there was. The church was packed. People were just in disbelief that we were going to close. And there was kind of like a Phil Donahue type of question, question and answer thing where people were running around with the microphone and letting people speak. They went back to the back of the church and there was a gal that was sitting back there that said that. She said, you know, I. I came here. I came here once. The first time I came to St. James, I came with my boyfriend. And my boyfriend was agnostic. He really didn’t practice any faith. He didn’t go to church at all. And we were invited to a wedding. And when we came in here, this is before we were married. And when we came in here, my boyfriend just looked at me and said, this is the most beautiful place I’ve ever seen. They were married and four years later, he became Catholic. And she said that this church was special. She said, this church isn’t just a church. It saved a soul, if you will, if you our religious of thought to realize the importance of faith and belief in God. I found that very poignant. You could hear a pin drop when this gal told this story. Very soft-spoken. But that was her importance of what St. James was, and I don’t think it varied very far from most people’s thoughts and ideas of the importance of this building as a church and as a place to be able to come to, to find refuge from this world that we’re living in, especially in these days.
James Lanese [01:08:01] Joe and Toni, thank you very much. Appreciate your-
Joseph Dwyer [01:08:04] Thank you.
James Lanese [01:08:06] Contribution to our program here.
Joseph Dwyer [01:08:10] Thank you, Jim.
Toni Sabo [01:08:11] Our fellowship.
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