Abstract

This is an interview with author Lloyd (Sandy) H. Ellis Jr. about his book Sacred Landmarks and his forthcoming book which extends the first work beyond the city limits. In the first part of the interview there is discussion about the first book and how his new book will extend beyond the city limits to look at other sacred landmarks around the city. The next part of the interview Ellis notes the problems with getting access to some institutions and differences between religious groups and the clergy. Throughout the interview unique aspects of these landmarks are noted as well as religious differences. The later part of the interview Ellis notes how the churches have evolved and how parishioners have given insight to these landmarks. At the end of the interview discussion concludes with how the builders deserve credit along with the designers in construction of these landmarks. Ellis also points out how many founding pastors provided the initiative, fund raising, and drive for the construction of these institutions.

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Interviewee

Ellis, Lloyd (Sandy) H., Jr. (interviewee)

Interviewer

Lanese, James (interviewer); Valore, Kenneth (interviewer)

Project

Sacred Landmarks

Date

11-2-2011

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

61 minutes

Transcript

James Lanese [00:00:00] Okay. Good morning. My name is Jim Lanese. I’m joined by Ken Valore and Sandy Ellis to conduct an interview for the Center for Public History and Digital Humanities to document the history of the Sacred Landmark Project in Cleveland, Ohio. The interview is being held at Cleveland State University, located downtown Cleveland. Please introduce yourself for the record and your affiliation with the project.

Sandy Ellis [00:00:34] Well, I’m Sandy Ellis. I am involved with the project because I have just written a book that will be published next year by Kent State Press, which is a revision of Foster Armstrong’s Handbook Guide to Cleveland Sacred Monuments. We’re expanding it to include other sacred monuments outside of the city of Cleveland in Cuyahoga County.

James Lanese [00:01:05] The first book was focused exclusively within Cleveland boundaries?

Sandy Ellis [00:01:09] Correct.

James Lanese [00:01:10] I see.

Ken Valore [00:01:12] Was it also more just about architecture?

Sandy Ellis [00:01:17] Well, yes. Scholarly interests change. And 20 years ago, I think Foster Armstrong was very interested in particularly how Cleveland architects managed various Revival styles, Gothic, Romanesque. And I’ve been more interested in patronage. How did these communities build the buildings they built? A little bit more about the history of the communities. And also I’ve, with one exception, managed to get inside all of these, the buildings that I talked about. And Foster Armstrong primarily described the outside exterior.

Ken Valore [00:02:05] How did you pick the buildings? I mean, did you do the same ones he did, plus, basically?

Sandy Ellis [00:02:13] Correct, I started off with his list, and then I went over the list, expanded it into the suburbs, and then went over the list with Michael Tevesz, who’s the director of the Sacred Landmarks Project, and then with Chris Krosel, who at that time was the archivist of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Cleveland. Then as I made my rounds, I would ask the people I talked to, if you had to choose an institution other than your own, what would you choose? And came up with a list of about 154 institutions. I must say, I’m not sure whether you all know this or not. If I had to do it over again, I would make some changes. I don’t think that the new African American churches are as well-represented as they probably should be. And also I would have included Holy Family in Parma, which Richard Fleischman says he thinks is his finest church. And I didn’t discover until very late in the process where I didn’t want to add anything.

James Lanese [00:03:38] He’s the Saint Paschal’s right?

Sandy Ellis [00:03:41] It is. It is. But Fleischmann doesn’t feel St. Pascal’s is as good as Holy Family or his Holy Family, I think.

Ken Valore [00:03:52] Well, we should probably put that on our list.

James Lanese [00:03:55] Exactly.

Sandy Ellis [00:03:58] And I am sure that Fleischmann would like to talk about it, he’s very proud of it. His book about what his life work features.

James Lanese [00:04:11] One of the things that you just mentioned that we could follow up on the African American American churches in Cleveland, we spoke a little bit with Mike about that yesterday. And it seems to be a phenomenon that he pointed out a little bit, probably because of the changing neighborhoods and so forth over time, whereby there’s a trend of reusing existing places of worship as well as alternative locations. Mike brought up storefronts and things like that. What have been some of your observations regarding that phenomenon?

Sandy Ellis [00:04:54] Yeah, well, that’s a very interesting question because this book, the book I wrote is about sacred landmarks. You basically are talking about big places. There are very relatively few small churches in the book. St. Philip’s, which is next to Tri-C, is an example. And then there was a small church out on East 130th. But by and large, these are what I was writing about were large institutions. But the large institutions are surrounded in Cleveland by a sea of little storefront institutions in the Protestant communities. It’s not true in the Jewish or the Roman Catholic community. And I didn’t really talk about those. I found not every place is terribly welcoming and this is not peculiarly African American phenomenon, but I think that some of the African, big African American churches are suspicious of people that come around asking questions. And there’s a lot. There’s a brand-new institution right across from Antioch, right across the street from Antioch, which I couldn’t get into. Mount Zion, which is on Euclid Avenue, which I couldn’t get into. And there were a couple of institutions on East 105th that I did not get into. And a large church on Kinsman that I didn’t get into. So this is not an encyclopedic list of places. I’m really good on Roman Catholics. I’m pretty good on Jewish institutions. It gets a little wobbly on the Protestants.

James Lanese [00:07:14] One of the things we found with talking with Nate Arnold of Fairmount Temple was the progression of the location of the Temple right from Eagle Avenue to Scovill to Euclid now up to Fairmount. And in its wake, they don’t, I won’t say abandoned, but they relegate the property to, typically, another worship institution seems to be a phenomenon that’s not only true of them, but of other temples and congregations.

Sandy Ellis [00:07:59] I think that’s a fascinating subject and something that someone has written a book about institutions in Boston where they talk about this in great detail, that Roman Catholic churches don’t move. Established and they stay there. Their congregations may come and go, their congregations change, but they don’t move. Jewish institutions, and I always think of this in terms of, you know, basically this is Abraham out in the desert with his flocks and his camels, and when the grass grows, gives out and the water, the wells dry up, the tribe moves. And it is the survival of the tribe that’s more important than where they happen to be and that they just. You will find Jewish institutions where you find Jewish people. And where there aren’t Jewish people, there aren’t Jewish institutions. And you can track the movement is not so much the institutions as it’s of the Jewish population. Out of the central city into Woodland, into Glenville, then into Cleveland Heights and now further east.

James Lanese [00:09:28] That’s an interesting way to explain that. Sounds quite accurate too.

Sandy Ellis [00:09:33] When the grass grows out, it gives out. They follow their rabbis, they roll up their Torahs and they walk to another oasis. You know, that’s what they do.

James Lanese [00:09:44] And set up shop all over again. Which also happened with Park Synagogue - where I continue to visit with them - and their movement from Cleveland Heights now - well, I guess originally in Glenville to Cleveland Heights - to now Shaker or Pepper Pike, I guess technically up there. What are some of your experiences with visits to some of the landmarks that kind of stand out in your mind as far as the nature of the building or the community or changes that you’ve experienced?

Sandy Ellis [00:10:26] Well, all of these places have a history and they all have a story, and very frequently they have a myth as to how they were founded. I have one other general comment, if I could throw it in, that one of the problems about visiting these institutions is that they’re not secret, but they’re private. And that means that because of changing standards of civility, law and order, that most of the institutions that you and I visited are now locked. The era where you could walk in and pray in a religious institution is a thing of our childhood. There are very few places in Cleveland where you can walk in - the two cathedrals, St. John the Evangelist and Trinity, St. Paul’s Shrine, Wade Chapel, and Holy Rosary. Holy Rosary is a place in the neighborhood such that desecration would not be only unthinkable, but would probably be dangerous. And the priest opens up the church in the morning and before he goes to bed at night, he locks it up. And in between people from students from Case, patients from University Hospital, whoever happens, people from the community wander in. And that’s- You don’t find that almost any other place in Cleveland. Some of the wonderful things that I think the most interesting things that I’ve run into is not so much the places, but the people. One of the places that you visited was the Lithuanian church on the far east side. Our Lady of Perpetual Help and-

Ken Valore [00:12:46] You mean St. Casimir.

Sandy Ellis [00:12:48] Oh, you went to St. Casimir. I thought you went to Our Lady of Perpetual Help.

Ken Valore [00:12:52] They changed the name.

Sandy Ellis [00:12:53] Oh, oh, that’s right. Yeah. I’m sorry, I forgot that they- Yeah. [crosstalk] Now St. Casimir. The Poles moving in with the Lithuanians. But I talked to this wonderful Lithuanian Jesuit, born in Lithuania, four or five years old at the end of the Second World War, displaced person wandered around Europe, finally came to the United States. He was head of the Lithuanian Jesuits, did not do well in communist Lithuania. They assumed that this was the end of their order. And they re established themselves in the United States and Australia. And then subsequently, as almost a retired adult, he went back to Lithuania several times. And he is just a wonderful person. I was particularly taken by the women that I talked to, particularly the Roman Catholic women. I went to two institutions which were essentially run by nuns because of the shortage of Roman Catholic male clergy. Exceptionally dynamic ladies, both of whose churches. One of whose churches was closed, one of whose churches probably will be closed. These ladies who would be princesses of the church in any other denomination. And they sort of thrown a crumb at the end of the. Their administration. I was very taken by inner city African American Baptist ministers who I think of, because of stereotypes like in the movies, of being very aggressive, very verbal, very loud, dynamic, compelling people. And many of the people I ran into were quiet, restrained, very substantial. I hesitate to say meek, because, you know, they were pastors of churches, but they were very quiet and very, very, very impressed by that. The rabbis, as I suspected, always had the best sense of humor and they told the best jokes. They were a delight to see. So I think that it was the people that I thought was particularly interesting. There is not architecturally, and this is basically an architectural book, Cleveland is not altogether that inspiring. And Park Synagogue, which you went to, is unquestionably the most historically significant religious building in Cleveland. It may be the most significant building of any kind in Cleveland, but very-

Ken Valore [00:16:23] You don’t think much of Mr. Gehry’s building on the Case Western Reserve campus?

Sandy Ellis [00:16:31] Well, I think that’s- Yeah, no, I think that’s very- I think that’s a very important building. I don’t think that- Again, you know, what do you like? And I think part of the problem with Park, and I think you asked [inaudible] from anything, Park is very ’60s-ish, and this is a problem with modern churches. Modern churches [are] supposed to be modern, they’re supposed to be new. And, you know, Park is no longer cutting edge. Or Park, the Park in Cleveland Heights, is no longer cutting-edge architecture. Park East certainly is. And the problem with modern church architecture is that people have to keep it up constantly, repair it, paint it. The dings that buildings acquire in a Gothic Revival or Romanesque Revival, you know, that’s part of the charm of Trinity - piece of masonry missing or cracked or something like that. In a new church, that’s not part of the charm when you see the paint peeling or the windows not quite right. So that- Anyway, the reason why I think Park is so important is that Park is Mendelssohn’s, maybe Mendelssohn’s greatest building after he left Germany, certainly his greatest building in the United States. It’s a very important architecturally significant building, where the business school is a good building. I love it. I wish the art museum would arrange to tear down the old Cleveland Institute of Art building so that when you go out and you look from that wonderful glass cube that has the sculpture in it, you could look across the lawn and see the Gehry building. I think that would be absolutely wonderful. But Gehry’s built other buildings that are somewhat similar to that. And I don’t- I think people would say that Bill Baugh was in that style, his masterpiece. Not necessarily the business school.

James Lanese [00:18:55] As far as some of the more traditional architectural styles go, which churches kind of stand out in your experiences?

Sandy Ellis [00:19:10] Well, I think Trinity that you went to is a very, very good example of the High Gothic Revival. The Revival goes through three phases. The first phase would be Keeley’s St. John the Evangelist Cathedral, which unfortunately is now clad with Tennessee orchard limestone. But if you get inside of it, you can see what he built. And then the last and final stage was the archaeologically somewhat more correct Trinity. And Trinity’s absolutely gorgeous inside. Protestant churches are not very well-decorated generally, and Trinity is sumptuously decorated. Interesting thing about Trinity is it’s so small. It’s about half the size of a regular Roman Catholic parish church. It only seats about 500 people. But it’s just beautifully, beautifully, beautifully decorated. My favorite church, actually religious building, is no longer a religious building. It’s the Ratner School on 271, the [Edward Durell] Stone building, which I think is absolutely wonderful. And I think that what the Ratner people have done to convert it into a school certainly preserved its character. I’m sorry, your question was about traditional, traditional churches. Well, I think in terms of traditional churches, Saint Stephen’s. You know, you’ve been to Saint Stephen’s and, and Saint Stephen’s is the Roman Catholic answer to Park. It’s the inside. The outside is kind of 19th century run of the mill. The inside is just absolutely fantastic in its decoration. I don’t think you’ve visited any of the Orthodox or Orthodox-oid churches like the Ukrainian churches and the Greek churches that are beautifully, beautifully decorated and just fantastic.

Ken Valore [00:21:50] We haven’t gotten to those yet. It was easier to do stuff during summer. Now I’m taking a couple of classes, so I’m tied up three days a week. Jim is a ref for football, but we’ll get back on.

Sandy Ellis [00:22:16] I had a lot of problems with the summertime because I was trying to photograph the outside of churches and that’s difficult in the summertime because you get the bushes and the trees to cope with. It’s a lot easier when the leaves are off everything.

James Lanese [00:22:31] Then it’s hard to find a sunny day.

Sandy Ellis [00:22:33] Well, that’s true when the leaves have grown.

James Lanese [00:22:44] As you developed your manuscript and you relied upon the first work from Kent State Press, were there other resources that were helpful for you or aside from what folks may have contributed in dialogue or church archives or things like that?

Sandy Ellis [00:23:09] Well, I think you have to start with the Encyclopedia of Cleveland History - basic for any kind of kind of local history thing. And it was an incredibly helpful resource, not only in terms of- It discusses some of the churches, but it also discusses the communities and the people involved. The Roman Catholics have put out a wonderful well, they periodically, about every 50 years put out a book about all their parishes. And right now it’s something called People of Faith, which Vic Pillow put out about 20 years ago. But that’s extremely helpful for Roman Catholic churches. I would go around and try to get particularly the Roman Catholic churches are reaching the point where they have hundredth anniversaries and they will have a big hundredth anniversary booklet which has a lot of historical material in it. And I think one of the best is the one about St. Patrick’s Rocky River on the west side. The very, very good articles. There are some books that are available. The Congregationalists, the Church that burned down, has had a very good book written about it. And she then went out and wrote a history of the Church of the Covenant, which is also very good. St. Paul’s as you would expect, has a very good book written about it. But it was what I got most, I think, just simply from talking, talking to people. One of the things I learned that I started out, I wrote A letter to the head of every community, either the priest or the rabbi or the president or whatever, saying who I was and what I wanted to do and that I’d be contacting them. That was not helpful. I think most of those letters went into the wastebasket because when I would then follow it up with a telephone call, people wouldn’t have the faintest idea. Occasionally people would have read the letter, but relatively rarely. And then I spent a lot of time trying to chase around pastors, rabbis, very difficult Roman Catholic priests I found, surprisingly well organized. You call them and they’ll call right back. At least that was my experience. It’s the Protestant ministers that are sort of vague and chasing them around. So what I found that basically, in the context that I’ve given you, were church secretaries. Talk to the church secretary, convince her that it’s a good project and you’re in. She lets you in the building, she gives you the brochure, she lines up her boss to talk to you.

Ken Valore [00:26:25] Although with St. Stephen’s I called numerous times, never had anything back. And there was a guy who somebody else mentioned who was good about, you know, the architecture, but he declined to be interviewed because he’s publishing a book on architecture. And so he thought this would, I don’t know, do something. So what we finally did, we just went to church on Saturday, and then I buttonholed the priest.

Sandy Ellis [00:27:02] Yeah, there you go. Well, you know, again, off the record, I’m not sure what’s going on there. I found the secretary extremely helpful. And subsequently, when I wanted to get in to show people the church, extremely helpful. But in connection with your project, I called and there was a long gap before she called back. And I wonder if maybe there’s some health problems there. I’m not sure. I’m not sure.

Ken Valore [00:27:32] I think they’re getting- I think they’re getting a lot of people coming in to look at the church. So they’re doing tours, so maybe they’re just busy.

Sandy Ellis [00:27:47] Well, now, if that happens again, Michael Tevesz is a friend of Franz.

Ken Valore [00:27:51] Oh, no, we already did the interview.

James Lanese [00:27:57] But to reemphasize your comment, it’s interesting how you ultimately make a connection. Quite often, I think the secretary, like you said-

Sandy Ellis [00:28:08] Very helpful.

James Lanese [00:28:09] A key person. If you convince the secretary that your effort is worthwhile, you’ll get to the next step. One of the things that we ask all of our guests when we do the interview is connections between their particular congregation and their faith and their church and the community in which it resides. What kind- Have you picked up in your work that kind of a connection, in a sense, with various neighborhoods?

Sandy Ellis [00:29:06] You mean me personally, or other communities?

James Lanese [00:29:09] Through the work that you’ve done with the sacred landmarks. I guess what I’m trying to ask is, do you have any unique insights into a particular community that, whereby their belief system and their location and their building tend to resonate quite well with the rest of the community, where it’s an integral part of the community?

Sandy Ellis [00:29:42] Well, that’s a very interesting question. And again, I think that you have to go back to the Jewish congregations where the community moves, the institution moves, and the relationship is very tight. I didn’t spend a lot of time going to services like you did at St. Stephen’s, though occasionally I had to go. That was the only way I could get in. I didn’t see a lot of when they were really functioning as a congregation. I think it’s very interesting, though, where you see ethnic congregations, particularly the Greek Orthodox, the other Orthodox institutions, some of the Jewish institutions, where when they have services, you see, you walk in and the officiant is carrying on in the front. The ladies are sitting in the sanctuary talking to each other. The guys are in the back in the narthex, where you walk in a little louder, talking to each other. It’s a real community gathering. It’s an opportunity for people to get together. In contrast to Protestants, Roman Catholics, who frequently- They zip in, they go through the motions and they walk out. Personally, I’m an Episcopalian, and so I knew most about Episcopalian institutions, some of which are very much part of the community. You haven’t gone out to St. Christopher’s yet in Gates Mills, which is what I used to go to.

Ken Valore [00:31:36] But no, I talked to- I talked to the priest out there, and he mentioned that one of his parishioners is 102 years old. So we were trying to coordinate with him to get her as part of the interview. And so far it hasn’t worked out because I guess he has to go out to see her. I think she lives in Middlefield.

Sandy Ellis [00:32:04] Yeah, I don’t know who that is. But St. Christopher’s is fascinating because St. Christopher’s is basically a real estate development. You know that this was put together at the same time that Williamsburg was put together in Virginia. And these guys went out and they bought 1,000 acres of farmland in the eastern part of the county. And Walker started designing big houses for his friends. And part of the deal was they fixed up the hunt club across the street and they took over St. Christopher’s moved it 20 feet south to get away from the river so it wouldn’t fall in. And also so that they could put parish halls and offices and that sort of thing on the back of it. And the marvelous thing about St Christopher and it’s very much part of the community, you know, the horses come in to get blessed before the hunt and all that sort of- But it’s a good example of what these churches used to look like in the 19th century. You go around Ohio and you lot of Greek revival churches like St. Christopher’s but they’re next to body shops or McDonald’s or the telephone wires all over the place, all that sort of thing. But because of this high-class community, all the wires are buried and it really looks sort of, sort of like it’s a development. St. Ann’s I think is a similar, was a similar organization that Powers came out and he’d had bad experiences with Roman Catholic churches going under because of changing neighborhoods. And he went out and organized a bunch of parishioners and they bought a large amount of land and they said we’re going to set up St. Ann as a Roman Catholic middle-class enclave. And they did.

Ken Valore [00:34:06] It was interesting that the founding pastor- I mean, it’s really more like it’s designed more like a Greek temple than it is a Roman Catholic church. And I guess he had a lot of problems with the bishop getting his design. And then the other thing was going around during the Depression and buying up stuff that he would incorporate in the church from bankrupt banks.

Sandy Ellis [00:34:39] You know, the bishop originally wanted to build the church- He got plans from Walker and Weeks to put all his little pieces together in the late ’20s. And the bishop turned him down for three reasons. One, he didn’t like Powers. Two, he didn’t like big expensive churches and three, he thought it looked like a bank. Well, if you walk in there and if you imagine there aren’t pews there, it looks like a bank. It basically is a bank.

Ken Valore [00:35:07] An old-style bank.

Sandy Ellis [00:35:10] Old-style, yeah. But it was for a long time a very tight community. And there’s a wonderful book about St. Ann’s written by a parishioner. And one of the points he makes is that Powers never- They didn’t have campuses or any- Powers just went around, talked to wealthy Catholics in the neighborhood and raised money and built stuff. And this is a problem for them now that the wealthy Roman Catholics have moved out to Gates Mills and they need to go around and raise money.

Ken Valore [00:35:56] It’s interesting that a lot of these founding pastors were really- The church was designed based on what they thought it should look like. St. James, when he went to Sicily and came up with a couple of designs.

Sandy Ellis [00:36:19] There’s one example that I think that I would urge you to visit, if you can, with a camera or a video camera, because it is so much at odds with its neighborhood. And that’s St. Rocco on the near west side. Have you been to that?

Ken Valore [00:36:36] I know where it is. We got married up the street at Blessed Sacrament. 

Sandy Ellis [00:36:44] Mm hm.

Ken Valore [00:36:46] I know one of my nephews went to their festival and got beat up once.

Sandy Ellis [00:36:53] At St. Rocco’s? St. Rocco is absolutely amazing. I went there. One of the things, problems that- I pulled up and there was a hearse in front of the church. And I said, oh, no, this is not good news. And the priest saw me for about a half an hour before the funeral, hurriedly. And he said- I don’t know whatever happened to the funeral, because I didn’t see any evidence of that. But he said, if you want to get in the church, the kids are about to go in for a service. And so I went around the rectory. And here, out of the school came something that is just amazing. There’s this long line of children being herded along by nuns with habits and whipples, the whole business. And it went in the church and here all these uncomfortable little kids messing around with nuns shushing them up. And in the back in the narthex, there are acolytes. And there’s a nun who’s there lighting their candles. And at the very last moment, some young priest sort of appears, and they process down for the chapel, daily chapel exercise. It’s just like Bing Crosby and Ingrid Bergman. You know, you think you’re back in the bells of St. Mary’s. It’s just completely at odds with this neighborhood that they’re in. Amazing.

James Lanese [00:38:33] Just as an aside, the same procession occurred in this year’s Columbus Day Parade.

Sandy Ellis [00:38:42] Really? 

James Lanese [00:38:43] In Little Italy. The Saint Rocco’s school children, [crosstalk] they came up, were there along with all the nuns. 

Sandy Ellis [00:38:49] Oh, wonderful!

James Lanese [00:38:50] And they marched in the parade. But again, the same thought 40 years ago. With respect to church design and building design, a lot of focus is on the Catholic churches and of course the Jewish temples, the architects and so forth. What about some of the Protestant churches, aside from Trinity? That kind of stand out for you in the region with respect to their architectural features and so forth?

Sandy Ellis [00:39:31] Well, I think the most important church, from a preservation sort of view, is the First Church of Christ Scientist, the smoking minaret up on the hill above University Circle, which is actually in the city of Cleveland, which is no longer a church. It’s been taken over by a design firm. And they spent, I don’t know, 25 or 50 million dollars redoing the electrical system, the roof, the plumbing, whatever. And they’re very happy to have you come in there. They’ve restored the organ, which they play with a computer and play, of course, music that their designers like to hear, which is not necessarily what was there before. It’s very much like Severance Hall. It was designed by the same architect about the same time. And it’s very much like the entrance to Severance Hall. In terms of other churches, St. Peter’s in Lakewood is sort of a miniature Trinity. It’s a beautiful, beautiful church. It’s on Detroit, right across from the Congregationalist church. A little church, beautifully decorated, traditional kind of place. In Cleveland, the First Methodist Church, which is no longer the First Methodist Church, the one that’s downtown at 30th and Prospect, has a fantastic space. It’s like the space at Trinity where you look up into the tower, only there they have marvelous, marvelous stained glass within the space. And it was obviously built in competition with Trinity. The Methodists wanted something kind of like Trinity, so they built that church. It wasn’t built as a church, but Cory, which I think you visited, is just absolutely amazing. You know, it’s so big, you know, 2,400 seats in the main auditorium and 1,000 seats in the dining room and a swimming pool. It was just incredible space. The purchase by its congregation for a tenth of what the Jewish congregation had built it for. But it was just a marvelous building.

Ken Valore [00:42:26] It’s amazing that when you look at the windows, they all have Jewish symbols. The same thing with Liberty. We talked to Nate Arnold of Fairmount. He said when they were building the new church, or temple, rather, the architect said, You really don’t want those Tiffany windows. That’s old-fashioned stuff. Now, I guess at that point Tiffany was kind of out of fashion.

Sandy Ellis [00:43:04] Percival Goodman, they moved one Tiffany window out to Fairmount Temple, and they left millions of dollars of Tiffany windows there. And it’s very interesting, the Baptist congregation there is very aware of how valuable those windows are, and they spent substantially to preserve them. But this is characteristic of a lot of churches. When the Unitarian or the Congregationalists moved out of St. Lawrence in Tremont, to Plymouth, they left the Tiffany window in St. Lawrence. You know, St. Lawrence is just so- You know, that is, they borrowed stuff from everybody at St. Lawrence. They still got their Tiffany window, their Tiffany window.

Ken Valore [00:44:06] Well, we belonged to at one point a parish in Westlake, St. Ladislas. And as a matter of fact, when we were talking to the people from St. Elizabeth, I guess before they were all at St. Ladislas and it was Slovaks and Hungarians, which is not a good mix. So then they built St. Elizabeth, but St. Ladislas burned down. But the window they saved. And when our church was built, we got the window.

Sandy Ellis [00:44:53] Really?

Ken Valore [00:44:53] Yeah.

Sandy Ellis [00:44:54] And this is St. Ladislas in Westlake. I think there ought to be some- If something happens to St. Stephen’s, for example, that they have to close it, it would be too bad if they don’t get a large donor to move that glass to the art museum or something. Or that you would think that a modern architect could take that glass or take those furnishings and do something with them that would really be sensational. Although St. Stephen’s the glass and the apse is from St. Joseph San Franciscan.

James Lanese [00:45:41] Yeah. They did tell us.

Ken Valore [00:45:44] During the storm, the original windows were broken or something. So they just. As a matter of fact, we were there for. We went back for a German Mass.

Sandy Ellis [00:45:55] Did you?

Ken Valore [00:45:56] Yeah, because my wife is from Germany, and when she first came here and she was living with her sister, they lived not exactly in a neighborhood, but that’s where they went to church.

Sandy Ellis [00:46:09] Really? Yeah.

Ken Valore [00:46:10] But we met somebody there, and he said, I remember when I got married, they just had- There weren’t any windows back there. They had just boarded it up, basically.

Sandy Ellis [00:46:24] That storm, I don’t know that it took the windows out of St. Stephen’s. It blew the whole north part off of St. John’s little Episcopal Church in Ohio City. And I think it was also the same storm that blew down the towers at St. Stanislaus.

Ken Valore [00:46:49] I remember that because my father used to deliver bread in that neighborhood. We drove down there after the tornado.

Sandy Ellis [00:46:57] Really? Really? You know, because I see the preacher showed me a picture of the church after the tornado, St. Stan’s after the tornado, just trashed the whole south part of it. I think that it’s amazing how some of these things stand up and. And others got blown down.

Ken Valore [00:47:31] I guess the city didn’t allow them to rebuild it.

Sandy Ellis [00:47:33] Rebuild it. A child was killed.

Ken Valore [00:47:35] Right, right. But it seems to me in Tremont, there’s another thing, because when you’re going down the freeway, there’s another one that’s got to be at least 200 feet high.

Sandy Ellis [00:47:48] Well, there’s St. Michael’s which is pretty- Actually, there are two different heights. And then there is. You say when there’s a UC- Congregational Church in Tremont with a large spire like that, that I didn’t get into. It was kind of- They’re struggling a lot.

Ken Valore [00:48:14] That gold dome, that’s fiberglass. When you’re on the freeway and you can see. Because when I had a company, I was selling equipment to somebody. And that’s one of the things they did. They made- They basically would redo these things in fiberglass.

Sandy Ellis [00:48:37] Yeah. Yeah. You mean the one at St. Theodosius, the Russian Church? 

Ken Valore [00:48:43] I’m not sure which church it was.

Sandy Ellis [00:48:48] Fiberglass? I was in St. Theodosius when the priest- Somebody came up to the priest and said, there’s a leak in the dome. And he looked up and there was water coming down. And that’s a big problem. How do you get up there? You spend thousands of dollars getting some company to come in with an expandable ladder to get up there and try to figure out what’s wrong or fix it. Somebody told me that St. James is having more problems with its roof. Is that right?

Ken Valore [00:49:26] That’s one of the things they told us because of the way it’s built, it’s not too. And the snow falls from the main roof down on the secondary roofs.

Sandy Ellis [00:49:41] Really? Yeah.

Ken Valore [00:49:43] Because they basically should have put something up there to stop the snow from coming down. And they said, I guess it would take a million bucks. But they figured that the parishioner said they’d do it.

Sandy Ellis [00:49:59] I don’t- You know, like Mark Twain said, the bishop closed some churches that I was surprised that he closed. And he left some open that I was surprised that he left open. And very, very difficult thing to do. And nobody, I guess the only person that thinks that. That the bishop did the best he could do with a very difficult situation. I was sure that he was going to close some of the churches that he left open. Of course, I have no way of knowing. I don’t get to look at the church’s books or I don’t look at the roof or the furnace or all the factors. I don’t know.

Ken Valore [00:51:01] Well, St. Stephen’s he told us that they had gotten- They and St. Colman’s had like a three-year reprieve. Although I think St. Colman’s was supposed to close and they were going to keep Stephen’s open. Since St. Colman’s is Irish, they get every priest.

Sandy Ellis [00:51:26] St. Colmam. Have you been in St. Colman’s? Just a marble extravaganza. Unbelievable marble. Now, it’s not like St. James, where it’s different kinds of marble. That is so wonderful. It’s all Vermont marble, but it’s just amazing. The sculpture in there. Interesting thing about St. James is - I think it’s St. James - there’s swastikas in the sanctuary on the other side of the communion rail. During the Second World War, they had put a rug over the swastikas to cover them, to cover them up. But it’s just amazing. Those Irish pastors, boy, they built like a million dollars.

James Lanese [00:52:27] If you had to look forward and dream of it, how would you follow up on the project that you’ve completed? What would you look to next as far as the whole realm of the religious settings in the Cleveland area?

Sandy Ellis [00:52:50] That’s a good question. Actually, I do have a project that Kent State’s not very enthusiastic about doing something about Northeast Ohio, the same sort of outside of Cuyahoga County, I think would be interesting. The problem there is that the distances are so large that communities only would have one or two churches. And as I said, Kent State is not as enamored in this project as I am. I think that somebody needs somebody at Cleveland State, State or someone needs to redo this in 20 years. And I think it should be done every 20 years to keep track of what happens to these. Who would have thought that the Maltz family would put up the money and Case could sort of take over the Temple and turn it into a performing arts center? Who would have thought that the Temple on the Heights, which was, you know, the water in the basement, the roof leaked, you know, it was just a disaster. Jack Boyle spent five years as mayor trying to get something to be done with that building. And they couldn’t afford to- They couldn’t afford to pay the people to deal with the asbestos to take it down. And now you’ve got this dynamic African American couple and they’ve got their car wash and they have their radio station and they’re packing a thousand people in here every Sunday. And, you know, who would have believed that? And So I think 20 years from now, somebody needs to go through again. And I’m sure that academic fashions would change. And they may spend more time looking at the architecture than I did, or they’ll do it differently than I did. But I think that’s a continuing problem. And there are going to be some surprises. I think that some of these places look like real goners are probably going to- North Presbyterian Church, which is not a church you’ve gone to, is on Superior. It’s a church that’s been on- It’s a Presbyterian church, but it’s been on the equivalent of diocesan relief for a hundred years. You know, they have constant- They’re cursed by a good roof. You know, if they didn’t have, you know, right now, they’ve got 15 or 20 homeless people in their congregation. You know, it’s just a disaster, but it’s still there. It’s still upright. And, you know, who would have thunk it 50 years ago? Well, you would assume it would have been taken down so it turns into a warehouse. There’d be surprises.

Ken Valore [00:55:52] Interesting. Well, Mike said somebody is doing stuff. Something’s doing something in Lorain County. You mentioned some woman is doing something in Lorain County.

Sandy Ellis [00:56:06] Really? Yeah.

James Lanese [00:56:08] They had partnered- The center had partnered with Lorain Community College, and there was an active individual office kind of carrying on some work out in that area, too.

Sandy Ellis [00:56:22] There have been some very good books. There was a book- Usually most of the books are the result of the bishops having closed the Catholic churches. So they’re aroused and angry Roman Catholics who are pouring out these books. One book that has a preface by Dennis Kucinich about the churches that are closed. It’s kind of interesting. And another lady has done some from Cleveland Heights, has done some really good photography in Cleveland churches as well. Book that was brought to my attention by your group. Yeah, that’s a good. She’s got some really nice photographs. And then there’s a picture book about the city of Cleveland Heights that has religious institutions from Cleveland Heights. It has lots of others. Lots of interesting pictures in it.

James Lanese [00:57:25] I guess we don’t realize just how many churches are around until you tend to be involved in a project. And I find myself driving down the street and noticing churches that I haven’t noticed in 50 years, years of driving the same streets.

Sandy Ellis [00:57:45] Because you asked your question. How did you choose these things? There are 1400 churches in the Cleveland Yellow Pages. How do you sort them out?

Ken Valore [00:58:04] I know when I had my business, we were over on 49th and Hamilton and over on Superior and St. Clair. There’s like three or four churches right in a row. Probably don’t have a lot of parishioners. I don’t know if they’re a Roman Catholic or not.

Sandy Ellis [00:58:28] St. Vitus is a beautiful church.

James Lanese [00:58:33] I’m not sure that’s on our list.

Sandy Ellis [00:58:34] There’s a Slovenian Home across the street.

Ken Valore [00:58:38] That’S up past 55th. Yeah, I know where it is.

Sandy Ellis [00:58:43] But I have a friend whose family went there, and her sister. This is before she was born. Her sister was going to school at St. Vitus when the East Ohio Gas Company blew up. And so there’s all these kids who are sitting there, and suddenly the windows turn yellow and the nun says, everybody stay where you are. Nobody move. Of course, the kids just rushed out into the hallway, ignored her completely. It was one of the few things that was still standing when the fires went out after.

James Lanese [00:59:25] Is there anything else you’d like to add to our discussion?

Sandy Ellis [00:59:34] I guess the only thing I have to say is that I think the people that build these buildings deserve a lot of credit. And I think they’re generally maligned. And to go back to the 11th century, when the monks at Fulda complained to Charlemagne about their abbot who was untiring in his efforts to build a larger church, and they were tired of it. That a lot of these people were obviously real wheeler dealers like Larry and these other people. They had Oedipus complexes. But had they not got the money out of their congregations, had they not argued with the contractors, their bishops, whatever, these buildings would never have been built.

James Lanese [01:00:41] That’s the, I guess the thing that-

Sandy Ellis [01:00:43] And thanks for you too. You know, it’s just, they’re just amazing people.

James Lanese [01:00:47] And the story of how the facility was built. And there was always a person behind the initiative that was the key player. We heard that over and over again. They were usually a wheeler dealer- [crosstalk]

Sandy Ellis [01:01:04] Yeah. Arman Cohen is just a-

James Lanese [01:01:07] Big pictures.

Sandy Ellis [01:01:07] Yeah. And they are all sorts of- You’ve turned off the machine?

James Lanese [01:01:17] Oh, not yet.

Ken Valore [01:01:19] Well, thank you for your time.

Sandy Ellis [01:01:21] Yes, we appreciate it.

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