Abstract
In this 2012 interview, Marc Frisch shares his lifelong experience in the garment industry. His experience began in his youth, working in his father's knitting mill on E.66th and Euclid. After serving in WWII, he returned to his father's business. Later his brother took over, and he moved on to work for another company. His brother eventually sold the family business to Bobby Brown, which was where Mr. Frisch worked. He had become an expert in the knitting area of the business: machinery, yarns, dying, sweaters, etc. He ended up moving to Asia as the manufacturing moved there, and worked the business from there. He comments on the changes of the business over the years, offering a global and lifelong perspective.
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Interviewee
Frisch, Marc (interviewee)
Interviewer
Martin, Sean (interviewer); Smith, Kelsey (interviewer)
Project
Garment Industry
Date
8-8-2012
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
55 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Marc Frisch Interview, 2012" (2012). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 211003.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/389
Transcript
Marc Frisch [00:00:00] Oh, today is August 8, 2012, and my name is Marc Frisch and I’m going to be talking about my family’s company, the H. E. Frisch Knitting Mills Company. Okay. My father, Harry Frisch, began the Knitting Mill in 1929 after being employed at the Rich Sam Kleener Company which went bankrupt in 1928. He was a city salesman for all kinds of goods and was able to take with him from Rich Sam Kleener ten Kettenstuhl machines. These are the Kettenstuhl machines which were unique to make a special stitch termed a popcorn stitch. The machines were fed yarn by usually two large beams which were created from individual color cones from a warp wrapping and then rewinding to the beam. The finished knit fabric was steamed, folded and sewn, packed and shipped to several New York companies who cut and sewed and made dresses and blouses. In 1938, my brother Jerry Frisch, who was attending Ohio State University, returned home to assist my father in the business. These were difficult times in the industry and the country. Orders were difficult to get and there was building unemployment. In order to keep the factory going, the company came up with a packaged multi pack dishcloth and was named Pearl Clean. The pearl was from my mother’s first name. In 1940 Jerry was inducted into the army and my father struggled to keep the factory going without his assistance. During the summers of ’40, ’41, ’42, I worked for my uncle’s Stone Knitting Mills. In 1940 I would deliver knit body fronts to homes of Italian women in Little Italy who would hand embroider them and I would exchange their finished work with new parts on the next visit. I also worked in the knitting room where I laid out different colors and lots of yarn in preparation for knitting. In ’41 and ‘42 I worked at Stoney Mills on the night shift in the Rothschild Department. I actually worked there from 3 o’ clock in the afternoon to 11 at night, where I learned how to thread machines and how operating them watching broken ends. In 1941 I attended Miami University in Oxford, Ohio, aspiring to graduate from the business department. In 1945, however, our country was at war and I was drafted in February 1943. I was placed in the field artillery, eventually to be a forward observer serving in France and Germany. In 1945 both Jerry and I returned home, both honored with bronze stars for our respective service. Jerry was a captain fighting in the Bulge and I was in the south of France, crossing the Rhine through Germany and ending in Austria. My brother rejoined my father and was well fit as a salesman with a gregarious and warm personality. Encouraged my father to purchase Raschel machines which were in competitive mills manufacturing men’s multicolored T-shirts. Some of these patterns were raised and went into multicolor stripes, some with diagonal stripes. We added steaming equipment at that time and were now manufacturing on Raschels and the Kettenstuhls. As some of that business finally came back, I went back to college at Western Reserve and graduated with a BS in business in February 1948 and took classes through the summer months in order to finish earlier. I worked at Frisch in the afternoons and calculated piecework income for the sewers on an adding machine. A salesman from Friden Corporation at that time visited us to show us how we could calculate more efficiently and quickly. He left a machine for trial and it sold itself. What a difference this made in time and accuracy. It was just an incredible thing because everything was the hand adding a machine, not even electric. And this Frieden was just like magic at the time.
Sean Martin [00:04:58] What’s the name of that machine?
Marc Frisch [00:04:59] Friden F-R-I-D-E-N. For most of the men returning from the service, they were anxious to shed the colors of the military. And the market of the T-shirts were exploding to satisfy the need. The Knitting Mills with Raschel equipment in Cleveland were highly competitive and the buyers would visit each mill to create and look at new designs. Our business continued to grow and men’s T-shirts lasted for fresh through the early 1950s. During the same time, the ladies sweater business was beginning to flourish and this required a different kind of equipment called circulars. This is what we- I will be getting to that. I guess I didn’t have the pictures. The circulars in here, here we go. Yarn cones on the circular machine was placed at the top of the yarn feed and fed through the needles. And the needle bed would turn, making the stitch and feeding the yarn directly by its setup. Machines were of different gauges, fine and more coarse. We hired special knitter mechanics who were able to engineer these machines. Some of the terms to describe the knitting machines would be Jersey, Jacquard, Double Jacquard. These were the general terms of these machines. We also needed special finish equipment for washing fabric, steaming and pressing, plus additional sewing machines for seaming buttonholes. And also there was looping machines. We had new buyers visiting us and Jerry would visit New York and the west coast meeting new ladies sportswear firms. I was knowledgeable about yarns and production. My expertise in the factory was arranging the purchase of yarn for respective orders approving dye lots and matching colors according to the customer specifications and production path and delivery time. In the early 1950s, our uncle Sam Stone, who was a brother of Harry Stone, set up a sales office in New York for the benefit of Stone Knitting Nose, also representing Frisch. On occasion, he sent us a sample of a christening shawl and a christening blanket made in Belgium. He asked us to introduce this on the Kettenstuhl machine, which we did and made a knitted fringe on the Raschels. This became accepted and our first orders came in by baby and infant wholesalers. We eventually trademarked this as the Belgian Shaw and had a box designed for it. I watched over this business and expanded sales to J.C. Penney. In the late 1940s, we moved our factory from Stanton Avenue, which was located off 79th street between Quincy and Woodland, to 66th and Euclid Avenue. This was a multistory building and it had wide and secure floors, better lighting and excellent passenger and freight elevators. The Stanton Avenue facility was a fourth floor walk up by all employees. Everybody every day would walk up all four floors. There was no passenger elevator. In addition, we were opposite a rail track and the smoke from the train used to invade our factory every time it came by. The new location enabled further expansion. As we eased into the ladies sweater business. In 1954, my father celebrated 25 years in business and we had some 75 employees and these were some of the group of employees. We were non-union and we had a great relationship with our people and we were benevolent. Our relationship was benevolent with our people. Unfortunately, my father became ill in March of 1956 and he passed away in April of that year. Prior to his illness, this was a good time in his life when he saw Jerry and I capable of running the business, was able to sit back and enjoy his life. Unfortunately, time ahead was not on his side. We were members of the Knitted Outerwear Association, which was a national organization as well as the Cleveland one. We were the local Cleveland association. This brought our competing knitting mills together to learn new ideas for knitting equipment and knitting yarn quality control. There was a show every two years in Atlantic City showing new knitting equipment, new knitting mills, new knitting machines from around the world, plus knitting yarns, cutting and sewing equipment. Led by Lion Knitting Mills here in Cleveland, we set up a small laboratory in our factory where we could test yarns for strength and size and moisture content. Strength and size of yarns were critical for quality knitting and weight and density of fabric. During the latter part of the 1950s, we sold Bobbie Brooks and eventually became a prime resource to coordinate sweaters of their design with blue blouses and skirts. We maintain relations with a few of our other customers, including a competitor of Bobbie Brooks named garland from Brockton, Massachusetts. During the 1960s, when we delivered the millionth garment of a particular vest style, we were encouraged to join ILGWU by Bobbie Brooks as their new contract forbid them to work with non-union factories. Neither were we or employees in favor of this and we decided not to join. As a result, Bobbie Brooks cut out all orders as of January 30th that next year. This was a crushing blow for us, but Garland came to our rescue and being of higher quality helped us to learn better finishing and sewing methods. Taking our people off of piecework and looking for better quality, we added additional knitting equipment. We began delivering sweaters of higher quality than Bobbie Brooks and continued to move forward for about 18 months. And then there was a big blow to the sweater market throughout most of the retailers. When sweaters were out and the blouse business soared, this was serious for us and it caused me to think about another direction in my working future. My wife Betty was in residential real estate and I learned of an opportunity to join an outstanding firm in industrial real estate, leasing and selling properties to manufacturers and warehousing firms. We discussed this knowing it may be a struggle for a few years to learn the business, but thought it may hold a good future together. My brother and mother were disappointed that I was leaving the family business but did accept the decision. I joined Jordan and Newell, which was an outstanding partnership and relished this opportunity to be on the outside, to meet principals of a variety of companies and to service their real estate needs. This involved traveling throughout the near counties picking up terms and details of leasing. Unfortunately, Betty was diagnosed with lung cancer latter part of ’68 and though she had periods of remission, she passed away in February of ’71. When I knew Betty was sick, it was important to our family, including three children that had security and employment. As leasing income was not predictable. I was offered an opportunity to join Bobbie Brooks as manager of their sweater division. By coincidence, in 1970, my brother Jerry sold Frisch Knitting Mills to Bobbie Brooks. My responsibility was to purchase yarns as various styles were adopted and to oversee the production of orders placed with contractors in Brooklyn, Long island and New Jersey, Frisch in Cleveland and Puerto Rico. I had offices in Cleveland and New York and the Cleveland staff followed the details and sales of all styles and New York through production men visited each respective mills with orders following through delivery and ongoing problems. I spent three days in New York and two days in Cleveland. Bobbie Brooks had 120 salesmen and there were five seasons in each year. This involved new colors and many times new Yarns. During the 1970s, sales agents representing production opportunities in Hong Kong, Korea and Taiwan were calling on our marketing people in New York. And we tested this market in Hong Kong and Korea with a few styles. I became responsible to check the quality of the goods coming in, thus following the details of the letters of credit together with domestic resources. We owned a full fashion plant in Ponce, Puerto Rico, and placed production for two styles made out of acrylic yarns. One was a lady’s short-sleeve pullover and the other a long-sleeve cardigan. This was labeled a twin set. Sales took off dramatically and unfortunately, Ponce was not able to produce to satisfy the demand. One of the sales agents representing Hong Kong introduced his factory that could produce these same garments at a lower price and with better service. We placed our orders with Hong Kong and this was the beginning entry into the import market in any depth. And we slowly placed some styles in the new market, though we did maintain and use our domestic suppliers. I would say this was a great example of how somebody would go and move into the import market. And this was a catalyst definitely for Bobbie Brooks because the style was so big of a style, and boy, and they did such a great. They really did a great job importing. In 1974, they decided they would open up an office in Hong Kong to oversee their blue jean production and asked me to consider going to the Orient to oversee placing sweater orders in Korea and Taiwan. I agreed to take an exploratory trip with our designers to visit most of Asia. This took on Hong Kong, Macau, Philippines, Korea, and Taiwan. After my return, my vice president asked me whether I would consider relocating in Hong Kong, with an eventual task to open up a separate office for sweater production. After discussing this with my children, we felt this might be a good move for me and to create a new path in my life. We were friendly with a Japanese company named Takeo who had offices in most countries, and they offered to allow me to work through their respective offices and be supported by their staff. My first stop at the end of the year in 1974 was in Hong Kong and then identifying the styles that were going to be made. We decided to place our production in Korea. The staff in Korea helped me to choose an apartment and a housekeeper, and I began my work in Seoul. Takeo arranged for a representative from the company named Mr. Kono to be at my side and act as an interpreter. He was educated at the University of Michigan and became a close friend. Our first production out of Korea had many problems as we were directed by our marketing department to dictate prices to the factories, which in turn took us to low subcontractors. And I felt that Taiwan had better resources for us. And after the first year in Korea, we moved all of our imports and moved to Taiwan. I used the Takeo staff to guide me in the factories in northern and southern Taiwan. Mr. Kono joined me as well. Taiwan became a good resource for us and in late 1975 we opened up our own Bobbie Brooks office in Taipei. We employed four staff to assist me in follow through orders and details. One of the most taxing problems I had was to get the factories in both Korea and Taiwan to learn the skill to match colors. Bobbie Brooks was very strict on color matching coordination between sweater, skirt and blouse was our key to success. It took great effort to explain this requirement and assisted the dyers to match colors. Some of the dye houses, some of the dye factories were not able to perform and we had to replace them with those who could were willing to cooperate. In 1976, I met a young Taiwan woman who I later married. She was college educated and worked for a trading company in Taipei. I decided to leave Bobbie Brooks and set up a company with my wife as agents to work with African American and Canadian manufacturers named Floma Co. Ltd. Flo for Flora and M, Ma for Mark. We made samples from the various factories that cooperated with us. And I made trips to the States meeting companies and designers. We slowly started our sweater business. We became successful in the latter part. And in the latter Part of 1989, many of the factories had closed as the standard of living had increased to the point where labor intensive workers had left the factories for higher paying jobs in the big cities. Some of the people we worked with in Cleveland were Dalton, Jerry Leary Fashions and my Hipson company and Interdesign Incorporated. We closed our business in Taiwan and moved back to Solon, Ohio in September of 1991, leaving a most pleasant Chinese culture.
Sean Martin [00:20:07] You certainly covered a lot there. And I guess I want to go back to the beginning and then ask a few questions. From the beginning on, can you say more about your start in the industry? Your start in the industry, if I understand correctly, was with Stone Knitting Mills, your uncle’s company-
Marc Frisch [00:20:27] During the summer months. Right.
Sean Martin [00:20:29] Right. And you said you had interactions with some of the people in Little Italy.
Marc Frisch [00:20:33] Yeah.
Sean Martin [00:20:34] Explain that.
Marc Frisch [00:20:35] Oh, Stone Knitting Mills was making an embroidered ladies sweater and in order to make that, they would send the- They cut out the fronts, front of the sweater, and they created a design with somebody that was in charge of the design with these Italian women in Little Italy. What they were supposed to put on, embroider, hand embroider on the front of the sweaters. So I would deliver the blank fronts to these different houses, and they would embroider the front of the sweater. And then I would pick them up and take them back. And of course, they would give them a new supply. So I was going to this house in Little Italy and that house in Little Italy, maybe three or four houses. And they were doing it by hand.
Sean Martin [00:21:31] And these women doing these things by hand. This- They are essentially doing piece work part-time. Is that-
Marc Frisch [00:21:40] They were paid by the piece.
Sean Martin [00:21:41] They’re paid by the piece.
Marc Frisch [00:21:42] Yeah. They couldn’t control the time they had. They were paid by the piece.
Sean Martin [00:21:46] And so this is just something they’re doing extra on the side as they-
Marc Frisch [00:21:51] Right, yeah. They’re homemakers. Yeah. In their own homes. Right.
Sean Martin [00:21:54] Okay.
Marc Frisch [00:21:55] Right.
Sean Martin [00:21:56] Okay. And so why the women in Little Italy? I guess were there other people doing this elsewhere or this is just the community?
Marc Frisch [00:22:07] Actually, there were- Yes, there were actually people that were doing embroidery. There were companies that were doing it. In fact, Stone Knitting Mills eventually had somebody in house doing that. People working on that in house. But the embroidery the Italian women were doing was more extensive, more labor intensive. But when they had to finally do it in house, it was a more simple type of embroidery. Maybe just a little bit and so forth and so on.
Sean Martin [00:22:40] Well, when it’s not hand done.
Marc Frisch [00:22:44] It was hand done, but it was more simple.
Sean Martin [00:22:48] Okay, okay. Anything you can remember about the interactions with the Italian women or anything like that? That’s just an interesting part of the story.
Marc Frisch [00:22:59] Well, it was a new experience for me, and I have to color this a little bit. The manager of Stone a man named. Was named W.R. Woodworth. Mr. Wood, Woodworth was very strict, very strict man. And he started me this. He said, I want you to take my convertible. He had a Chevy yellow convertible and told me that this is where I want you to go. And that was my introduction, going to these different houses. And these people were homemakers. And the reason this was in Little Italy, because the Italians, you know, the background of how the Italians got there, because they were brought into this country many years ago to do the tombstones for the Lake View Cemetery. And so these were women at home that raised the children. And they probably the children were of a certain age that they could Spend time on this. And it was just the something that they were very crafty in and a great place to go. And there were relationships between the employees at Stone Knitting Mills that directed us to these people in Little Italy because we had a lot of Italian workers at Stone.
Sean Martin [00:24:22] What was Little Italy like in those days?
Marc Frisch [00:24:24] It looked exactly the same as it does now. It hasn’t changed a lot. It was- It was very- In fact, I parked on one of the streets the other day and I said, God, this looks like one of the houses had gone. Houses were more taken care of better recently, but it looked pretty much the same.
Sean Martin [00:24:44] They were better taken care of now?
Marc Frisch [00:24:47] I think so, yeah.
Sean Martin [00:24:55] To move forward if you could. You described the important change in what happens with Frisch Knitting Mills. If I understand it correctly, Frisch Knitting Mills has this relationship with Bobbie Brooks, and then Bobbie, the knitting mill is producing enough garments that it has to- It is required in some sense to join the ILGWU if it’s going to continue making product for Bobbie Brooks.
Marc Frisch [00:25:32] Correct.
Sean Martin [00:25:32] And so then your Frisch Kntting Mills decided not to do that, so Bobbie Brooks had to pull out?
Marc Frisch [00:25:39] Well, Bobbie Brooks gave us an ultimatum, actually. They said the union was you to join. And as part of our contract, that we can only work in our area with union people. And in order for us to continue to work with you and for us to sign that contract, you have to join. And we decided. We both went home and mulled over it and we came in the next month morning. We both felt that we were being coerced into this and we said no. Looking back, it might have been politically not smart, but at that time we thought it was. I guess it was our pride or whatever. We decided not to do it.
Sean Martin [00:26:34] And you had other business from Garland?
Marc Frisch [00:26:37] Yeah, our percentage of business with Garland and other people was probably around 25% or 30%. Bobbie Brooks was about 70% at the time. And so it was a real blow. But Garland was really happy that we ended business with Bobbie Brooks because they wanted us badly. They wanted us to be a be one of them, to be quite honest and that’s the way they treated us. They have their own knitting mills, but they need to expand and they look to us as, you know, as sourcing with us.
Sean Martin [00:27:19] You also said that something about the changes in styles, that sweaters were out and blouses were in.
Marc Frisch [00:27:26] Yeah, that was a.
Sean Martin [00:27:27] So explain that a bit more. What is actually out and what’s coming in and how does that. How did that really affect what Frisch did?
Marc Frisch [00:27:36] Well, the trend and what women were buying was no longer wanting sweaters. There was a national trend at that particular time. And the blouses, whatever blouses were with the different companies, were just the most important part of a woman’s wardrobe.
Sean Martin [00:28:05] And that would have really required you to technologically change what you’re doing enough that you couldn’t do it basically.
Marc Frisch [00:28:13] Well, nobody wanted a sweater. I mean, there were a few sweaters that we sold, but it just. The general market was dead, basically dead. It just was revolution.
Sean Martin [00:28:25] in fashion, really.
Marc Frisch [00:28:26]Yeah. That particular time, yes.
Kelsey Smith [00:28:29] What time was that?
Marc Frisch [00:28:33] That was around 1967.
Sean Martin [00:28:43] That’s in the ’60s. So you and your brother are running the business for about 10 years or so after your father dies?
Marc Frisch [00:28:50] Yeah, Exactly.
Sean Martin [00:28:54] Okay.
Marc Frisch [00:28:55] Yeah.
Sean Martin [00:28:59] And then you worked in real estate for a few years, but then you go to Bobbie Brooks.
Marc Frisch [00:29:06] I didn’t want to go back to the knitting business, but I had to realize that’s where my expertise was, trying to lease properties. You have to be in that for four or five years before you can really do something. And. And actually, it was my wife’s and my dream, once I was in real estate, that we end up moving to a little place after our kids grew up and selling real estate. I could have industrial or commercial, and she would do houses. But that never worked out. But I had to have a paycheck in order to support my wife and my children at the time. So that’s why. So I got a call.
Sean Martin [00:29:54] From Bobbie Brooks.
Marc Frisch [00:29:55] Yeah.
Sean Martin [00:29:56] Well, so can you say more about your relationship with Bobbie Brooks and the people at Bobbie Brooks? How was that for you to go back to work for them? Just really a few years after they’d given you this ultimatum?
Marc Frisch [00:30:10] It was like. There was no bad feeling at the time. I was actually. They bought Frisch, so that was. My brother was secure, and I was like. It was really great because other than reporting to my vice president, it was like my own business, because they didn’t know anything about knit co’s, knitting, or how to order yarn, and they had made. They just did not know. My whole background was in that, so I had brought something to them that they didn’t have. It’s hard to explain, but we would. Every time there was a new style, there might be a new yarn, and there they would order natural yarn put into a dye house, and maybe it would sell, maybe it wouldn’t sell. So you have loads and loads of natural yarn of different types building up into a dye house that was never used, and a lot of waste of money. What I did was I changed all that in which I was able to find a company that would give us the dyed yarn when we needed it instead of building up raw material inventories. So it was. We never had an inventory of raw material to be dyed. We were able to just give an order. The company we worked with was they supplied the dyed yarn. We never had to have natural yarn in inventories, and we saved a lot of money. The first year and a half I was in business with them.
Sean Martin [00:32:01] With Bobbie Brooks?
Marc Frisch [00:32:02] Yes. Saved a lot of money. And also the New York contracts were really happy that I was there because they never had a person in the knitwear office that understood anything about the knitting problem. And so when I came in, they. Frisch had a good reputation. And I walked in and they were just. It was just great. I mean, they were happy to see me. I could solve their problems. And my guys in New York were really happy because the Cleveland guys that were there, they never got. It was like they didn’t understand each other. It was like a friction. And so I was coordinating the whole thing.
Sean Martin [00:32:47] Okay, and so you worked for Bobbie Brooks for a while? For about 10 years or so, is that?
Marc Frisch [00:32:55] I joined them in 1970 and I left them at the end of ’76.
Sean Martin [00:33:01] Okay, and then you’re in business for yourself?
Marc Frisch [00:33:04] Right.
Sean Martin [00:33:05] And is it fair to describe your own business with your wife as you’re working as agents for manufacturers, putting them in touch with suppliers and vice versa?
Marc Frisch [00:33:18] We actually were- We had the factories in Taiwan, and I would represent the factories and I would represent the manufacturers in between. I mean, we actually. They didn’t know the factories, but we made the samples. We made, you know, the prototypes were okayed by the factories and we placed the orders and delivered the goods. They never saw the factories once. I think maybe once or twice they came over and they met them. They had nothing to do.
Sean Martin [00:33:57] And they are just various companies you’re working with here in the States who are making.
Marc Frisch [00:34:01] We worked with a men’s company on the west coast called Pebble Beach, coming in Dallas and several other locations.
Sean Martin [00:34:12] Okay. Just wherever.
Marc Frisch [00:34:13] Yeah, I would go around with samples and meet designers and so forth.
Sean Martin [00:34:18] Okay. Okay. Well, so now let me ask you, how does you described sort of your trajectory in the career takes you from your family’s business to another local business, then overseas and then to your own business. And then how. When does Bobbie Brooks close?
Marc Frisch [00:34:47] Probably the latter Part of 1980s.
Sean Martin [00:34:51] Okay, and you’re no longer with them?
Marc Frisch [00:34:54] No, I haven’t been with them since ’76.
Sean Martin [00:34:58] Well, so what are your own reflections on the decline of the garment industry in the area. How, with your experience in so many different aspects, to what do you attribute the decline in the industry?
Marc Frisch [00:35:18] Well, several reasons I saw in the case of Dalton, these are the big companies. There were family problems. There were family problems with Dalton. For example, Bobbie Brooks overextended themselves. I want to give you an example of Bobbie Brooks because there’s a company I like to interview and I can’t get the right person. And this was possibly a big part of the downfall of Bobbie Brooks which would have happened anyway. They owned a men’s company called Donegal, M & D Simon and they owned Bobbie Brooks owned also a company in Hialeah, Florida called Colebrook. Colebrook had double knitting machines and most of their production was going to M & D Simon felt by the name of Herb Adler. Herb Adler was a financial guy and he partnered with Maury Saltzman and he watched over M & D Simon and Colebrook. The trend for double knits, men’s garments was dying and Herb Adler wanted to keep Colebrook going and he wouldn’t let- He just- They had to move from these double nets and find another area to go into. But he wouldn’t give up and he just wanted to keep Colebrook going. And it just ended and put M & D Simon out of business. And that was a big jolt to the Bobbie Brooks total corporate situation. There’s somebody I want to interview from there and that’s the first thing he’s going to say. It’s the first thing he asked me. Whatever happened to that Herb Adler? Because, oh, he met him on an airplane, he told him off. But it was just- And they also bought some dress businesses in New York which didn’t work out and they were just getting too big and out of control. Plus the imports.
Sean Martin [00:37:58] Okay.
Marc Frisch [00:37:59] Plus the imports and competition.
Sean Martin [00:38:00] From overseas?
Marc Frisch [00:38:05] Competition by other people because they were doing other things. Bobbie Brooks was a great company, was a great company, until they tried to over expand until they took over M & D Simon, so forth and so on.
Sean Martin [00:38:21] And what would you say about the role of the unions?
Marc Frisch [00:38:27] If we look back and think about our talk with Buzz Rosenfeld, it felt it was pretty level. There was never any big issues with the union. It was pretty level. Pretty much the Cleveland Knitted Outerwear association here in Cleveland. They had strength in the, the association, but they sat down and they resolved things pretty well. There was never any big issue like it was in 1911 when the unions were trying to get established here.
Sean Martin [00:39:07] So I’m hearing you say that then when it came to the knitting mills the unions cooperated fairly well with the manufacturers.
Marc Frisch [00:39:16] Right. I have to talk about the knitting mills. I didn’t know too much about the apparel people, but that’s another area.
Sean Martin [00:39:27] That’s an important-
Marc Frisch [00:39:29] Yeah, no, it was really-
Sean Martin [00:39:36] Okay. I think I still have a couple questions. Let me just look back at my notes. Kelsey, did you have any?
Kelsey Smith [00:39:50] I don’t think I have anything.
Sean Martin [00:39:56] I just asked- I’d like to ask you to say more about the turn to Asia and why the production in these various countries was eventually better than here.
Marc Frisch [00:40:14] I’m glad you asked me that question.
Sean Martin [00:40:17] Okay, go.
Marc Frisch [00:40:21] This is a good example. One of our customers that we ended up doing a lot of business with was called Jerry Lurie. I called on him every time I came to this country for five years. He only made dresses, like day dresses. The women and the girls would, you know, just regular, simple dresses. And I said, you know, I don’t know why I’m calling on you. He said, you’re not using any sweaters. And so. But I want you to come and see me every. Every year because I want to see what you’re doing. So I would show him different samples and sweaters and so forth and so on. I even made a knit dress for him to see if he would put a knit dress in his line, but he couldn’t use it. One day I get a call, get a phone call. We’re going to the sportswear business, and he’s sending over his son, Greg Lurie. And Greg came over with a lot of tear out some magazines and a few samples and so on, and we slowly started to do his entire sportswear and sweaters. And so I want to show you. You might not like what you see, but this is some of the things that we did for him. We even did some cut and sew. And the big thing was intarsia. Intarsia. These are all done on hand knitting machines. In other words, you’ve probably seen these. It’s just like a small keyboard, and they would shift left to right, but every single needle, every single. They had to hook on by hand. And these were. And so intarsia. This is all intarsia. As you see these different pictures, you’ll see that matching the skirts, impossible. Now, this could be embroidered, but the cost of doing that would be impossible. So there’s a whole area that you could never do in this country. Every one of these is intarsia.
Sean Martin [00:42:51] And so you’re saying that is a technique that was first used in Asia?
Marc Frisch [00:42:55] Yes.
Sean Martin [00:42:55] Okay.
Marc Frisch [00:42:59] A hand knitter could do it.
Sean Martin [00:43:02] But the machines were developed in Asia.
Marc Frisch [00:43:05] Actually in Japan. Most of these were Japanese machines. Not only was intarsia a big thing, but also the cost of doing just a plain jersey, just a simple garment, was so much less than you could ever do it in this country. The cost of it was less than what you could manufacture here in this country, including the land, you know, taxes and tariffs and, you know, landing it and so forth.
Sean Martin [00:43:44] Okay. Yeah. That’s always what’s so interesting, too, to figure. And that all makes it cheaper.
Marc Frisch [00:43:49] Right.
Sean Martin [00:43:51] So it is a question of labor costs, but it’s also a question of technological innovation that’s there.
Marc Frisch [00:43:57] Right.
Sean Martin [00:43:57] Okay. Okay. And what are these pictures on top here?
Marc Frisch [00:44:05] These are some additional ones. We actually printed these for.
Sean Martin [00:44:19] That’s nice. Very colorful.
Marc Frisch [00:44:22] Yeah. I just talked to Greg Lurie this morning because he’s coming in town.
Sean Martin [00:44:29] Yeah?
Marc Frisch [00:44:29] And we’re going to interview him.
Sean Martin [00:44:31] Oh, great!
Marc Frisch [00:44:31] And I told him I’m going to be talking about. Here’s some more of the intarsia. And the thing is, in their case, they had. Bobbie Brooks had five seasons for every year. Five seasons in a year. So that means their whole color changed, all their styles changed.
Sean Martin [00:45:00] So what are the five seasons?
Marc Frisch [00:45:06] Spring, summer, fall, trance season, and holiday.
Sean Martin [00:45:12] Oh, okay. Okay.
Marc Frisch [00:45:16] So a trance season was between fall and holiday, and that would mean different colors, different styles. And it was really a lot. You know, it was really something. It was amazing.
Sean Martin [00:45:39] I guess I just have one last question for you, which is perhaps the most general question, but what with your experience in the industry and so many different aspects of it, what’s your view of the industry today, whether in the Cleveland area or elsewhere, in terms of how. In terms of knitted wear especially, but generally speaking, how we make clothes and buy clothes. What. Do you have any. Are you optimistic for the industry here in the area or you understand why the industry left and it won’t come back? Do you know what I’m asking?
Marc Frisch [00:46:26] As far as hope to have the industry come back? I don’t think that’s possible. Everybody is trying to make it cheaper. It goes from a very interesting thing at this period of time. I just want to digress a minute. China was not even in the picture at the time because the United States would give quotas to the countries that they were going to import from. And China had no quota for sweaters. They had very little quota during the 1960s. And so a country could not. United States. You could not import anything from a country where the United States had not given a quota to.
Sean Martin [00:47:28] Okay, okay.
Marc Frisch [00:47:32] I’d like to say one other thing, which I feel very strong about. When I was in Korea, this whole thing about color matching. Bobbie Brooks was very strict in that I was trained on their Macbeth machine. A north light and a daylight under the Macbeth machine to match colors of every dye lot. We match colors of every dye lot of yarn. I did that also when I was in Taiwan. But the dyers in Korea, they didn’t know. They used to. In order to. They used to be in a dye house. And they used to take a lot of yarn to look at the color. They take it outside on a cloudy day. They had incandescent bulbs. They had no sense of matching. They used it black and navy, and they couldn’t do red. That was about it. And it was really awful. I mean, we’re so strict. We have all these colors. So I was in Korea, and I said, well, we’ve got to be looking at something under the same light. So I asked. We went to a kiosk and got two fluorescent lamps. So I gave the first fluorescent lamp to the first dye house. So now we’re looking under the same light. And so one dye house, they just couldn’t do it. They couldn’t get ahold of dye stuff. So sometimes they had special dye stuff from Germany. A lot of that stuff used to come from Germany. It was a process of elimination. Went to another dye house, and gradually they got it. A particular dye house got it. Until we finally got to a better dye house. And there were engineers involved. They made light machines and made me one. And put several different lights in the machine. So we’re all under the same. And we started to match colors. And I had to do the same thing in Taiwan. It wasn’t as bad. But I brought light machines to Taiwan. So we’re always under the same light. It was really. I sort of pride myself because I swear I brought color matching to Korea. It’s amazing how the people they were working with before, which were fairly named people, they just didn’t have the variety of colors that we were into when we were matching colors in our own business. My wife was pretty sharp on color matching. But sometimes she was not in agreement. And where I found I was in agreement. I maybe went over the line a little bit. I knew where I could go over the line. But if we really had a problem, we would go back to the customer and say, can you accept us? Because maybe it was something that was not acceptable to either of us. So I would then go to the customer. And I said, this is the best we can do. Can you accept us before anything was made? So we did this on every lot of yarn that was very important to us.
Sean Martin [00:51:03] How was that? How old were your kids in the ’70s when you’re in Asia?
Marc Frisch [00:51:12] My daughter was at college and she was in her 20s. My son was 18, 17, 18 when I went over. And my other son was. No, my one son was. Yeah, 18, and my other son was 16.
Sean Martin [00:51:33] Okay.
Marc Frisch [00:51:34] And when he turned 17, he came over and spent a year and a half with me. I brought him over.
Sean Martin [00:51:40] But they are a little older then already?
Marc Frisch [00:51:42] Yeah. When I finally went over. Yeah, yeah, right.
Sean Martin [00:51:47] Yeah. I mean, that was quite a move.
Marc Frisch [00:51:50] Yeah.
Sean Martin [00:51:55] Well, I don’t think I have any more official questions. Do you have anything else you’d like to add?
Marc Frisch [00:52:05] Oh, I brought a picture here. I think I screwed up on the picture. This is that baby shawl. That’s the only thing I could find. It’s harder to see. It was, I guess I had a picture of my brother, myself in our uniform, but I don’t know where I did that. But that’s about it. This is how the Raschel machine would make a pattern. And each one of these is a lead piece. And the needles are molded into the lead piece, each one. And there’s a slammer blade going back and forth. And they’re really big machines, make a lot of noise. It’s amazing because our factory made a lot of noise. I’m lucky I’m not deaf. It’s amazing. Some of my friends can’t hear. And I was in the artillery and I have every reason not to hear, but I have pretty good hearing.
Sean Martin [00:53:26] Well, and the building at 66th and Euclid. Can you say a few words about the building itself and the demolition of the building?
Marc Frisch [00:53:38] Yeah, actually, I have a picture of it here of the building before the building on 66th and Euclid used to house, actually, Excelsior Knitting Mills was in that building, who later became Dalton. Hospital Specialty Company. They made. I think they made sanitary pads. I’m not sure what they made, but they were in that building. Burtwell, Euclid Sportswear was in that building. Peterson Nut was in the back part of the building. And that was their beginning at the original building. That original building was an automobile building. Lake Erie Sales. And strictly in the front part was strictly a showroom on Euclid Avenue. And the cars were stored using the elevators on the upper floors. It was strictly built as an automobile building. That was the origin of that building.
Sean Martin [00:54:45] And when did it come down?
Marc Frisch [00:54:47] Came down about three weeks ago.
Kelsey Smith [00:54:53] I just connected into a building that was. I saw them.
Marc Frisch [00:54:56] [Crosstalk] Yeah. Yes, I have the article here.
Sean Martin [00:54:57] Do you?
Marc Frisch [00:54:57] Yeah, I have the article.
Kelsey Smith [00:55:02] It’s really funny because I always wondered what that building was.
Sean Martin [00:55:02] And now. So this building in the corner here in the picture is?
Marc Frisch [00:55:06] That’s the building.
Sean Martin [00:55:07] That is Dunham Tavern?
Kelsey Smith [00:55:09] That’s Dunham Tavern, right there.
Marc Frisch [00:55:10] Yeah. I didn’t realize. I got the corner of it. Yeah, right.
Sean Martin [00:55:15] That’s great.
Marc Frisch [00:55:17] That’s great.
Sean Martin [00:55:19] Well, it had to be Dunham Tavern.
Marc Frisch [00:55:20] No, you’re right.
Sean Martin [00:55:21] There’s nothing else there.
Marc Frisch [00:55:22] You’re right. Yeah.
Sean Martin [00:55:24] Yeah. So.
Kelsey Smith [00:55:25] I did a preservation project on it and I recognize. So.
Sean Martin [00:55:31] Well, thank you.
Marc Frisch [00:55:33] You’re welcome. It’s a pleasure.
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