Abstract
Carol Paulik Schultheis introduces herself and gives her background information. She tells of leaving her home on a farm to come to Cleveland to study at Dyke College to become a secretary. She talks about her experiences at Dyke living in Cogswell Hall with the other out-of-towners. Carol talks about the courses she took and the friends she made. She tells of skipping class to go to the Phil Donahue show, which was broadcast from Cleveland at the time. Carol talks about the departments stores downtown. She met her future husband at the Ambassador lanes. She talks about her life after college in the Cleveland area.
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Interviewee
Schultheis, Carol (interviewee)
Interviewer
McDermott, Peter (interviewer); Souther, Mark (participant)
Project
History 304
Date
4-6-2006
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
54 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Carol Schultheis Interview, 06 April 2006" (2006). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 304009.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/392
Transcript
Mark Souther [00:00:02] You’re on.
Peter McDermott [00:00:03] Okay. Today is Thursday, April 6, 2006, and this is an interview with Carol Pavlik Schultheis at Gordon Square Arcade. My name is Peter McDermott, and I will be the interviewer. This is for a Cleveland State University course: US Urban History. I just want to start out with some background information on where you were born and where you grew up—that sort of thing. So when and where were you born?
Carol Schultheis [00:00:32] I was born November 17, 1945, at Medina County Hospital—or Medina Community Hospital, and lived on a farm, sixty-acre farm, and went to school, and came to Cleveland after graduation.
Peter McDermott [00:00:56] And were your parents—did both—did your whole family work on the farm or—?
Carol Schultheis [00:01:02] My mother didn’t work, but my dad, for a time period, worked the farm. We had cows, chickens, pigs, and we sold fruit at a little—kind of like a stand, when in season and so forth. But he basically worked for Ford Motor Company.
Peter McDermott [00:01:28] So he ran the farm and worked?
Carol Schultheis [00:01:30] He also had a coal business, too, hauling coal from southern Ohio up to Cleveland mostly.
Peter McDermott [00:01:39] And did you ever have to work on the farm? Was that—?
Carol Schultheis [00:01:42] I used to pick eggs until they started pecking at me, helped in the garden a little bit. I was kind of young.
Peter McDermott [00:01:49] And where did you go to school?
Carol Schultheis [00:01:52] I went to St. Francis Xavier Catholic School for eight years, and then one year for junior high in Medina, and then three years at senior high school in Medina.
Peter McDermott [00:02:06] And so you graduated from high school. And how did you make the decision to come into the city to go to college, or how did that process—?
Carol Schultheis [00:02:17] Just before graduation of June of 1963, I figured I wasn’t college material, and I took secretarial courses—you know, shorthand and bookkeeping and that. And I just wanted to further along my education, and then with a specific field—legal—and had an interview at Dyke College in Cleveland. And then they suggested coming—staying at Cogswell Hall.
Peter McDermott [00:02:58] Was that unusual for you to be leaving that area where you grew up and where you went to school to come into the city and go to school?
Carol Schultheis [00:03:07] I really don’t know what my parents thought. I just didn’t feel like there was a life down there on the farm. I had good grades, but I wasn’t college material. Also, my parents couldn’t afford to send me to a regular college. And going to a business school just gave me a chance to be out on my own, which was at the age of seventeen, by the way.
Peter McDermott [00:03:35] And so, was that a hard decision to make or—?
Carol Schultheis [00:03:37] No.
Peter McDermott [00:03:37] You were pretty confident?
Carol Schultheis [00:03:39] Yeah, I was glad to leave the country life for the city life.
Peter McDermott [00:03:44] What was that like, coming from a rural farm to—?
Carol Schultheis [00:03:49] I loved it. (laughs) I hate to say it. I did. No regrets whatsoever. Yeah, but it was not hard at all. And being on my own—well, sort of on my own because I stayed at Cogswell Hall, and sometimes I’d go home on weekends: get a bus downtown, and then the bus would take me back to Medina. But a lot of times—I kind of pushed my studies through. Instead of a two-year course, it was a year and a half. And I just wanted to get it over with so I could get into the workforce.
Peter McDermott [00:04:23] Okay. What did you like most about being in the city?
Carol Schultheis [00:04:28] People. Things to do. It just—it was fun. I really thought it was fun.
Peter McDermott [00:04:41] Okay. So you first came to Cogswell Hall—or it was known, at that point, as the Cleveland—?
Carol Schultheis [00:04:47] No, it was strictly as Cogswell Hall.
Peter McDermott [00:04:50] Okay.
Carol Schultheis [00:04:51] When we went for the interview for Dyke College, they suggested a place to stay because it was too much to commute. And so we went in for an interview with one of the ladies at Cogswell, got the tour of the place, and had to wait to see if I could stay there.
Peter McDermott [00:05:16] And were the girls who were living there at the time—where had they come from? Were they going to school or—?
Carol Schultheis [00:05:27] All of them were from out of town. What I understood was mostly students, and there were two girls that had jobs, but they had to be on a limited income. And it seemed like that they were there forever. But most of the girls were from out of town. The furthest, probably, was Pennsylvania. There were two from Medina County that I know of. There was one from Girard. And there were quite a few—like I said, we were all out of town. You know, they couldn’t travel into town. And a lot of them were going to another school. Most of them that I acquainted with were from Dyke College, and we had a great—lot of fun there.
Mark Souther [00:06:20] Peter, if you don’t mind, I wanted to interrupt and ask a couple of questions about Cogswell before, just to define where the place is. Could you tell us where Cogswell Hall is?
Carol Schultheis [00:06:31] I don’t know the house address, but it’s on Franklin Boulevard—I think it’s boulevard—here in Cleveland.
Mark Souther [00:06:41] And can you describe what the building looked like?
Carol Schultheis [00:06:42] Very impressive. I was just talking to somebody, and I said to them that it looked like a mansion. And I thought it was, at one time, maybe a home, a private home, but I guess it was—what I understood—it was always a home for girls, which got a reputation when we were there because the neighborhood kids thought we were problem kids. (laughs) But we had nice accommodations. Sixteen dollars a week, it cost, for room and board. And typical—we had to sign in and sign out. If we had any male callers, they had to be in the parlor. And I guess they still do that today when their men come on the floor, you know, to fix anything. They said, Man on floor. (Peter laughs) Sound familiar, Peter?
Peter McDermott [00:07:40] It’s funny because one time, I went back there to drop off these materials that I had, and it wasn’t like they were suspicious of me or anything, but you could definitely tell that, you know, it has a long history of being only women.
Carol Schultheis [00:07:52] We also had a—what do you call—someone there all the time. We had a cook and a cleaning lady. Now, most of us had single rooms. It consisted of a bed, a dresser, mirror, a chair. They changed the linens once a week. And we just furnished it ourselves with our own personal items. There was a closet in there. And on the two floors that had rooms, there were a communal bathroom with showers—I think it might have had a tub, but I don’t remember that—and lots of sinks, I think four sinks, and two toilets and that. And then, typical day was, for school, I’d get up, go to the bathroom, of course, and then get dressed and go down. Breakfast was served, and we also had supper. And there was a dining room, and we would go, actually, through a line and pick up our food and then sit down at the dining room. Then—
Peter McDermott [00:09:12] How was the food?
Carol Schultheis [00:09:14] Oh, it was—some of it was—I think it was pretty good. It was a little different, some of it, but what I remember—most of it was pretty good. And I was always a picky eater. Of course, I was probably pretty hungry. But we did have access to a cupboard and a refrigerator, so if—there was a store near the high school that you could go buy items. A lot of times, I’d pack a lunch. Or if we had a beverage or something, we could keep it in there. There were washing facilities down in the basement, like a wringer type, but we had to hang our clothes up to dry. Then, like I said, we had to sign in and out. We did have a curfew. And only two of the—I think only one had a car at the time.
Peter McDermott [00:10:13] Yeah, I was going to ask you how you got around at the time, how you got to school.
Carol Schultheis [00:10:20] Actually, probably walk—I think we walked down to Detroit Road and picked up a bus to go downtown. I went to church when I was there on weekends, St. Colman’s on Sixty-Fifth Street. They used to have a bus that would stop in front and pick up everybody and then, afterwards, drop them off.
Mark Souther [00:10:41] Where was Dyke College located?
Carol Schultheis [00:10:44] I think East—I’m trying to get—East Sixth Street, right across from the Board of Education. It’s no longer there. In fact, now it’s Myers College. Before that, it was Spencerian or something like that. You can find the information on that in the internet under Myers College. It was not really accredited, but a lot of my courses did have college credits and that if I had gone to a regular college and that.
Peter McDermott [00:11:23] What were your first impressions of Dyke College?
Carol Schultheis [00:11:28] It was overwhelming. I took the legal secretarial course. That was a two-year course. And a lot of it was more secretarial—you know, the typing and the shorthand. It was just all an extension of high school, really, except for corporate law. I didn’t do too well in that. (laughs) But there was legal accounting—regular accounting, legal accounting—and it filled my time up with homework and that.
Peter McDermott [00:12:04] And were the girls who were staying at Cogswell Hall—were most of them who were going to school—were they studying the same type of thing?
Carol Schultheis [00:12:09] The ones that were going to Dyke—it was a variety of courses. There were only two of us that were taking the legal course. Some were taking—I think it was more corporate. And there was one that was going to, like, dental hygiene school. I don’t really remember where they all went, but there was about, maybe, six of us at the time that were all Dyke College kids. Because of our schedules, we had gone—you know, took the bus at different times and came home different times.
Peter McDermott [00:12:51] How many girls would you say were living at the house?
Carol Schultheis [00:12:54] Oh, I have no idea. I know there’s one picture I have with everybody on it, including the housekeeper. About fifteen, maybe. I don’t even remember how many rooms there were. Like I said, mine was a single room, but there were at least two I knew that they shared a room in.
Peter McDermott [00:13:25] Did you—I'd like to talk a little bit about what you and the other girls did when you were inside the house, for instance, for fun. Or did you become close with anybody in the house? Did you make friends with them?
Carol Schultheis [00:13:39] Oh, yes. In fact, after school and after we left Cogswell Hall, a lot of us continued seeing each other. Some, we went to their weddings. In fact, I had one of them in my wedding party, and my other best friend was in my wedding party, and I’m still in contact with one of them. I haven’t been able to track down some of the others yet. But things that we did—we had a lot of fun. We had a TV room at Cogswell, and that’s where we’d chat. We also had a little closet that was for the telephone, and you could make outgoing calls and long distance. You had to call collect. And you could receive calls there, too. We also got mail.
Peter McDermott [00:14:39] What would you do for fun?
Carol Schultheis [00:14:42] Fun? I remember the one girl that had the car. We once learned how to ski, and then there was another time where we took tennis lessons. And one thing that I didn’t participate in, but a lot of them did: The Phil Donahue Show was down in the basement over the—where Cogswell—I mean where Dyke College was. They’d skip classes to go to The Phil Donahue Show. And unfortunately, I was a little too studious. (laughs) But I always regret the time that I didn’t go. And then, when we first came to Cleveland, a lot of us would go out—if we stayed the weekend—we’d go into these big buildings because we’re not used to the tall buildings, office buildings, in downtown Cleveland. We used to take the elevators up and just ride them up. (laughs) That was kind of fun because—it was embarrassing, you know? Somebody: May I help you? And no, we’re just stopping by. But other things that we did—we just enjoyed each other’s company and that. Afterwards, when we left Cogswell, the ones that I’ve kept in contact—we went up to Montreal to the fair, the World’s Fair, up there. So we did a lot afterwards, too, with each other.
Peter McDermott [00:16:25] And who did you say that you kept in touch with?
Carol Schultheis [00:16:28] Sylvia Arnold Ward [phonetic]. She lives down in Tennessee now, but she’s the one that I really was in touch with a lot. The other one who I haven’t been able to track down was a Maureen Hogan Barnes, and I’d like to try to get a hold of her and that because she was in my wedding.
Peter McDermott [00:17:04] During the time that you lived there, were there any traditions or sort of things that had been happening at the hall since before you had been there, or any—I know when I was going through some of the things that they mentioned a bazaar sale, like a garage sale sort of thing that they would have every year. Other years, there was a harvest dinner, like a very small—
Carol Schultheis [00:17:27] I don’t remember those dinners, but I remember, you know, when Diana was mentioning about it. It was probably done on a weekend when I might have gone home or something like that. I know they—we did have the one fashion show. I think you got the literature or a copy of it. Good, because that was done, I think, for the trustees, if I’m not mistaken, because I don’t remember the crowd and everything. I didn’t pay much attention. I just was there that weekend, and they had this fashion show, and I knew it was, you know, for the community type of thing. But as far as anything else going on, it was very quiet. In fact, the time I spent there during the summer, nothing was really going on. Half the girls—more than half the girls were gone, so it was very quiet.
Peter McDermott [00:18:19] What did you do over the summer when you stayed?
Carol Schultheis [00:18:23] Oh, I remember just laying out in the sun and that and watching soap operas because I had only a few classes, and I could take it easy and that.
Peter McDermott [00:18:34] And what year did you graduate?
Carol Schultheis [00:18:37] I graduated from Medina High School in ’63, in June of ’63; started, I guess, the fall of that year; and graduated—in fact, I just came across my diploma. It said August of ‘65. So as soon as I got my—when I was at Dyke, I was able—they had an office where you could go for future jobs—placement, job placement. And I went on several interviews, and that’s how I got my job and stayed in Cleveland. But in the meantime, several—two of us from the hall—it was Karen Geist [phonetic] and Sylvia Ward—we got an apartment or a two-family home, a downstairs that we rented, and we lived there while we worked.
Peter McDermott [00:19:37] Where was that?
Carol Schultheis [00:19:40] That was on Summit Avenue in Lakewood.
Peter McDermott [00:19:45] I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about what you remember of the neighborhood and whether or not you see that as having changed at all.
Carol Schultheis [00:20:03] When we were there—let’s see—there was some other things we used to do. We used to go down to—now it’s Don’s Pomeroy. We used to have ice cream—go for ice cream. As far as the neighborhood, West High School was across the street, and there was, like, a little corner grocery store, and that’s where we mostly went shopping and that. The neighborhood—when Lent came, several would go to Our Lady of Mount Carmel for morning mass every day. I lasted for a couple of days because I had to get up too early. (laughs) Good intentions. But we used to—you know, I had to walk to Detroit Avenue. But ’65, things were starting to change, and we had some instances where some of the kids used to throw rocks. I don’t know if it was just, you know—it seemed like it was getting worse—you know, a few things. And like I said, the hall had a little kind of tag to it that it was either a home for unwed mothers or it was for problem girls that were—you know, trouble with the law. So the neighborhood kids didn’t know, really, who lived there, I think probably because we stuck by ourselves and so forth.
Peter McDermott [00:21:38] And I think that was also because it was only about ten years before that that it switched over to house boarders who went to college rather than—
Carol Schultheis [00:21:52] Was it? I don’t know how long they did that. I know I had to wait after the interview to get into Cogswell. I had to wait to make sure there was room. But there’s a whole bunch of new girls that came in, so they were just thinning them out. And you had to, like—parents had to—you know, a certain income and that. They stuck to that pretty good.
Peter McDermott [00:22:15] Could you have lived anywhere else? Was there—?
Carol Schultheis [00:22:17] I never thought about it. Once we had the interview and toured the place, my parents liked it, I liked it, and it was close to transportation. They furnished your food. Everything was there that you needed.
Peter McDermott [00:22:36] Was it unusual at all for—you said after you left Cogswell Hall, you and two of your friends got an apartment. Was that unusual at all, for three young ladies to—?
Carol Schultheis [00:22:47] No, not really. In fact, there was another two that left and had an apartment. The others went home. They figured they got their education, and job opportunities were closer to home. I wanted to stay in Cleveland and that. Something else when I was going to school—and, like, everything was within walking distance, at least, I thought that was at the time. St.—Lakewood Hospital—St. John’s. St. John’s Hospital there on Detroit also had a back entrance. And for one of my courses, I had to do community—or for my course of study, I had two semesters of community service, and I was a candy striper. So I just thought I’d put that in there. So I kept busy, in other words.
Peter McDermott [00:23:47] And so, after you graduated and you lived with these ladies, what did you do after that? Or what have you done since you’ve left Cogswell Hall?
Carol Schultheis [00:23:59] Well, during the time that the three of us lived on Summit, oh, we used to have parties. (laughs) And I worked. I didn’t st—I stayed there for about a year because there was one party that just was a little—got out of hand. But it ended up that girl—one of them—she stayed there, and I guess they had a butter fight, so we left. (laughs) Sylvia and I just got another apartment on Hird. So we stayed in Lakewood. But I was dating a fellow who ended up marrying one of my other friends from Dyke. And we did a lot, you know.
Peter McDermott [00:24:51] And so when did you start—did you start working soon after you graduated?
Carol Schultheis [00:24:56] Oh, right as—soon—I can’t remember exactly when I started working. Had to have been in ’65. I got a job at a patent attorney’s office, stayed there for a year until I got a raise, and then I got a job at Squire, Sanders & Dempsey as a municipal—in the municipal department. So I kind of specialized in all those fields.
Peter McDermott [00:25:27] And did you stay in that line of work for a long time or—?
Carol Schultheis [00:25:31] Well, I got married in ‘68 and worked for about three years so we can get a good down payment on a house—or we had bought a house when we got married, but I wanted to pay it off as soon as possible. And then I got pregnant, and I’ve been a stay-at-home mom.
Peter McDermott [00:25:52] How many kids do you have?
Carol Schultheis [00:25:54] Two boys.
Peter McDermott [00:25:55] What are they doing now?
Carol Schultheis [00:25:57] One went to the University of Akron and Wayne College, and he’s doing IT work at a law office. And the other one—he attended Akron University, and he works for Shiloh Industries.
Peter McDermott [00:26:23] And what do you do now? How do you spend your time?
Carol Schultheis [00:26:27] I’m still a housewife. And we just recently moved, so there’s still a lot of things that—we’re in the process of building up the house. And I have a hobby of genealogy which keeps me very active, and I enjoy it because of the fact—one of the things that came out of that was getting closer to cousins, but also, with the other side projects with genealogy, I’ve been in touch with a lot of people out of town, from New York to Michigan, all the way to California, down to Florida even—Texas.
Peter McDermott [00:27:06] How did you get interested in genealogy?
Carol Schultheis [00:27:09] Oh, that’s a weird story. My mother had a whole bunch of pictures. No names on them. And instead of throwing them out after she passed on, I decided I’d do a little inquiry and asked around, called people, wrote to people to see if they could identify some of these pictures, and came back with a lot. I got most of the wedding pictures identified except for one, but because a lot of these are 1916 to 1930 and—what was the question?
Peter McDermott [00:27:46] How you got interested in genealogy. You had all these pictures.
Carol Schultheis [00:27:55] I had all these pictures, so I wanted to put names to them and see how they were related to the family. And then my biggest project is this one on my husband’s side that—you know, with nine children. That’s been very interesting. In fact, this is my fourth year on it. (laughs) But it’s fun. I like the challenge of trying to find out information on these people that lived long ago. I guess that’s a little history that I’m interested in. I always was in high school. And I’ve done a lot of traveling, too, that—you know, there’s history involved in that.
Peter McDermott [00:28:44] How would you say that—in any way, how did your time at Cogswell Hall—how did that shape your life? Did you learn from that experience, or—?
Carol Schultheis [00:28:58] I think I did. To tell you the truth, I had no negative-ness about the experience. I was anxious to leave the farm to come to the city. That was a goal. I felt very secure at Cogswell Hall. And I know I never had any problems. It just seems like things—you know, just blended right in quite well. It was a good experience. And as far as shaping, I don’t know. Things have kind of like—(laughs) went along pretty well, I guess, probably because I have certain goals. And I’ve noticed this in my kids. You have certain goals, and you do this in such a way, and do it in such a way you don’t veer from it. And we’ve been very fortunate that—you know, haven’t had any problems or sidetracked—you know, tragedies or anything like that.
Peter McDermott [00:30:12] Is there anything that you recall from your experience at that time that we haven’t talked about at all or that—you know, any special memories or anything like that?
Carol Schultheis [00:30:24] The only memory I have is when a whole bunch of us were in my room and were sitting on the bed, and we must have been getting a little excited and talking and that, and the bed fell. A big clunk. And, boy, did the girls just—they just scattered all over here. And peaceful. Quiet. Everybody shut their doors and that. Nobody helped me put the bed together. (laughs) But we thought, you know—so we had to behave ourselves after that. You know, we were all little angels.
Peter McDermott [00:31:04] Were there any discipline problems at any point that you were there or anything like that?
Carol Schultheis [00:31:07] I didn’t experience any. I mean, they really stressed the fact of the curfew.
Peter McDermott [00:31:14] What time was that? Do you remember?
Carol Schultheis [00:31:17] You know, I can’t recall because I think—possibly, maybe ten o’clock at night, if I remember. It was longer on the weekends—I think eleven o’clock. And the poor guys that you were dating or something. You know, they had to go into that parlor. You didn’t stay there very long. (laughs)
Peter McDermott [00:31:40] Were a lot of girls dating at that time?
Carol Schultheis [00:31:43] Off and on, yeah.
Peter McDermott [00:31:45] Who were they dating?
Carol Schultheis [00:31:49] Local—well, mostly local Cleveland guys and that. Nobody from school that I can recall. I know when I met somebody, I met him at the laundromat, you know, later on. But as far as when I was in school, I don’t think I was dating anyone. Or they just knew somebody that knew somebody type of thing.
Peter McDermott [00:32:17] And you said you didn’t recall the name of the other school that some of the girls went to who were there?
Carol Schultheis [00:32:22] Jane Addams. I think that was the other—where some of them went to, like I think they did the dental hygienists. I don’t know what else they took there. I didn’t associate with some of those. But when we did get together—I know we had one Christmas party or something that we did. That’s where I have a picture from, but I don’t know—is there one there?
Peter McDermott [00:32:46] I do remember seeing—
Carol Schultheis [00:32:47] The group picture?
Peter McDermott [00:32:48] Yeah.
Carol Schultheis [00:32:49] Okay.
Peter McDermott [00:32:52] Yeah. I remember the copy of that.
Carol Schultheis [00:32:55] But after I left, I just kept in contact with mostly the few. And where the rest of them are, I have no idea.
Mark Souther [00:33:04] Do you remember—you mentioned going downtown and liking—you know, enjoying riding the elevators in the buildings and that sort of thing. I was wondering if you could recall any other things that you did downtown when you weren’t actually in school—any restaurants you went to, any shopping you did.
Carol Schultheis [00:33:27] We probably went to the Palace for the movies. And across the street was an ice cream place called Boukair’s. And talk about ice cream—it was a big fishbowl that they give you. I mean, it was really almost for two people. Other restaurants was the Colonnade. It was like a cafeteria. That’s no longer there. I think it was in the Leader Building. Kon-Tiki restaurant was at the old Sheraton there at the square. It was all done up in tropical—
Mark Souther [00:34:04] What was it called?
Carol Schultheis [00:34:05] Kon-Tiki.
Mark Souther [00:34:07] Kon-Tiki?
Carol Schultheis [00:34:08] Kon-Tiki. I think it’s K-o-n-t-i-k-i.
Mark Souther [00:34:10] And that was in the Sheraton?
Carol Schultheis [00:34:14] Yeah.
Mark Souther [00:34:15] Just called Kon-Tiki, or The Kon-Tiki—?
Carol Schultheis [00:34:17] It was a restaurant, a bar, with a tropical motif. And then there was a restaurant at the Holl—in back of the Hollenden. Oh, gosh, what was the name of it? I used to go there. There was one place I remember when I was working. We went to a Lebanese place. It was down—kind of like down in the basement. And that’s where I had my first baklava. (laughs) But most of the time, when I was in school and in work, I packed lunches and that. Stouffer’s used to be downtown on Euclid Avenue. Oh, that was good food they had then. And the Cunningham grocery store—not grocery—pharmacy or drugstore. They used to have, like, a little counter where you can have lunches and that.
Mark Souther [00:35:19] Where was that located?
Carol Schultheis [00:35:24] Usually on a corner. There’s one that was on East Ninth or—gee, I can’t remember where that was at. It was close to East Ninth. There’s a lot of buildings that aren’t there anymore. The old Bond store was there at East Ninth, and the old Halle’s. I remember my big purchase there when I was working. I got myself a pearl ring for twenty-five dollars. That was a big splurge. And, of course, Higbee’s and May Company was there on the square. And we’d go to the library, the Cleveland Library, to do any kind of book research. I think we even stopped in the Board of Education to look around to see what the inside of that building was—I think probably because, like a lot of the banks downtown, they were very ornate inside with a lot of wood paneling and that. And the Cleveland Trust building—the dome there. That’s one of the things. We just wanted to see what all the other buildings looked like and that. Of course, then once we started working, forget it. We ju
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