Abstract
In this 2004 interview, Ione Biggs talks about racism and women’s issues in the City of Cleveland. Biggs discusses the role and impact of the Cleveland Chapter of the NAACP. She discusses the racism in city administration and the politics of working for the city. The later part of the interview includes discussion of the City Club. Biggs discusses some of the memorable speakers at the City Club which included individuals such as Cesar Chavez, Robert Kennedy and Jane Fonda. She also talks about race and gender at the City Club.
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Interviewee
Biggs, Ione (interviewee)
Interviewer
Humphrey, Tom (interviewer); Estrin, Rachel (interviewer)
Project
City Club - Civil Rights
Date
8-10-2004
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
64 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Ione Biggs Interview, 2004" (2004). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 807002.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/402
Transcript
Tom Humphrey [00:00:04] I’m just gonna close the door behind you a little bit. My name is Tom Humphrey. I’m here with Rachel Estrin and Ione Biggs as part of the commemorative series for the City Club of Cleveland. It’s August 10, 2004. I’m just going to close the door and I’ll be right back. I’ve been reading all about you, and you’ve lived three lives. You lived enough for three lives. Okay, let’s- Boy, I really, you know, I don’t know where to start. I’m just fascinated. You’ve led a great life. You have a great life. Let’s start with Langston Hughes again. You said you knew Langston Hughes growing up and he used to come over to your parents’ house. You said he lived down the block down Central Avenue or on 85th, I think?
Ione Biggs [00:01:18] We were living on East 84th Street.
Tom Humphrey [00:01:21] Somebody else, sorry-
Ione Biggs [00:01:22] North of Central Avenue. And he and my brother were friends, and times were very hard at the time Langston was involved with the Playhouse Settlement. That’s what it was originally.
Tom Humphrey [00:01:41] This is before it became Karamu House.
Ione Biggs [00:01:42] And my brother would come by the house to eat and bring Langston, and he was always hungry. But my mother was enchanted with his mind and his poetry and what he had accomplished, and it all sunk in.
Tom Humphrey [00:02:03] Yeah. And you said you knew Elmer Brown as well. Elmer Brown has some paintings.
Ione Biggs [00:02:08] Oh, yeah. I knew Elmer Brown from the time he first came to Cleveland and worked for Russell and Rowena Jelliffe and lived in one of those homes that they had before they moved to- They lived in a beautiful home somewhere in Cleveland Heights. But there’s a row of brick houses, and I can’t think of where they are exactly, but they’re outstanding. And that’s where the Jelliffes moved to eventually. But at first they lived right in the Central area and had contributed so much to the lives of the children and the families. It was a wonderful thing to witness.
Tom Humphrey [00:03:09] When did you join the NAACP in Cleveland? Do you remember?
Ione Biggs [00:03:13] Oh, I joined the NAACP a long time ago. I can’t remember exactly when it was.
Tom Humphrey [00:03:24] Boy, I’ll take a shot. Did you ever meet W.E.B. Du Bois? Did you ever meet W.E.B. Du Bois?
Ione Biggs [00:03:31] No.
Tom Humphrey [00:03:31] No? Okay. Cleveland’s chapter of the NAACP was one of the earliest chapters of the NAACP.
Ione Biggs [00:03:38] Which is why I might have been present when he was here, maybe to speak, but I can’t recall meeting him.
Tom Humphrey [00:03:47] Yeah. Why did you join the NAACP?
Ione Biggs [00:03:54] Because I had experienced so much racism in Cleveland, you know, when I was a little girl, you couldn’t Go into Halle Brothers without being followed. You couldn’t try on clothes. You couldn’t get jobs. And then I- I was fortunate. My family was quite progressive, and my mother used to take us to meetings at churches and meeting halls. And although I didn’t understand a lot of what was being reported, I learned that something had to be done to stop it. And I wanted to play a role in stopping racism. I never succeeded, though.
Tom Humphrey [00:04:58] It’s not gone, but it’s better? Do you think it’s better? I mean, not the racism. Do you think race relations today are better than when you started?
Ione Biggs [00:05:06] Oh, yes, definitely. I feel they’re better, but I feel a lot has remained almost the same.
Tom Humphrey [00:05:17] Okay, like what?
Ione Biggs [00:05:23] Well, I experienced racism during the 52 years I worked for the City of Cleveland. I experienced it every day. And what was sad, and I almost cry when I think about it, because there were Black men and Black women who helped the white racist heads of departments in the city of Cleveland to impose- They found it to their advantage to support and even help enforce some of the stringent discriminatory practices that I, you know. And so I would learn that a white employee got more than a Black employee for the same work and even for less work. And I used to monitor the payrolls because it was supposed to be city property.
Tom Humphrey [00:06:36] Yeah, right.
Ione Biggs [00:06:38] Although they hated me for it and knew about it because somebody would always report it. They couldn’t stop me, and I would never, ever do anything to give them an experience, excuse, or reason for dismissing me.
Tom Humphrey [00:06:58] Right. So you toed the line pretty closely. You toed the line pretty closely?
Ione Biggs [00:07:04] Oh, yeah. But I still- It was, you know, the city records are supposed to be open to the public.
Tom Humphrey [00:07:14] Yes, right.
Ione Biggs [00:07:15] So I enjoyed that privilege.
Tom Humphrey [00:07:19] They still are. All public salaries. I work at a public institution. You could find out what they pay me and what they pay all my colleagues and everybody who works there. It’s a good thing that keeps an even playing field. So when you were working in the NAACP or working for the NAACP and working with or working for the City of Cleveland, did you feel like there was a division among the African or within the African American community about the role of the NAACP in a city like Cleveland?
Ione Biggs [00:07:59] Yes, because there were things I reported to the NAACP at that time, and I didn’t see any results. Things that should have been corrected.
Tom Humphrey [00:08:16] Were there African Americans in the city who did not support the NAACP?
Ione Biggs [00:08:27] Oh, yes. It was to their advantage to not be identified with any organization that was going to rock the boat, if you know what I mean.
Tom Humphrey [00:08:40] Yes, Yes, I do, actually. And that was from fairly early on with the history of the NAACP. That’s my impression. The NAACP was actually an outgrowth of. Well, you know, better than I am sure. The result of people who felt that some activists were not working hard enough to obtain civilization, civil rights. I have just millions of things to ask.
Ione Biggs [00:09:15] You know, maybe this is something I used to have to go to the media to get something done that needed correcting because I was not able to get the NAACP to take, for one reason or another, to take the action that I felt they should.
Tom Humphrey [00:09:36] Yeah. And can you think of any instance in particular? Any particular instance that you can remember?
Ione Biggs [00:09:44] Well, the wage issue was a serious one. It was obvious to anyone looking at the payroll that some wrongs were being committed.
Tom Humphrey [00:10:10] Some people weren’t being paid equally.
Ione Biggs [00:10:13] Then there was a lot of nepotism amongst the people who were in authority and those who were able to get jobs.
Tom Humphrey [00:10:32] You started working for the city. You were sworn in as a police officer in 1956.
Ione Biggs [00:10:39] But before that, I had been a physical instructor for girls and women with the city recreation department. And I was an excellent swimmer. I’m not bragging. I was just good. And I knew it and everybody else did. That’s why they gave me a job as a lifeguard at a time when I was really too young and also at a time when I didn’t have any political power because politics was the name of the game. So they had a near fatality at a swimming pool near my home. And it was discovered that the swimming teacher could not actually swim. So her job was held in abeyance with the understanding that as soon as she learned to swim, she could get her job back. She was politically strong. I was just a good, wonderful swimmer and a Red Cross swimmer. Even though the YWCA Young Women’s Christian association wouldn’t allow me to take the course in their pool because of my color. The lifeguards, water safety instructors, gave me the course at the pool that was across the street from where I lived. If you can follow that.
Tom Humphrey [00:12:14] I think I can.
Ione Biggs [00:12:15] With the understanding that as soon as this other woman learned to swim, I would be gone. So I was busy worrying about the progress she was making.
Tom Humphrey [00:12:26] Was it your job to teach her?
Ione Biggs [00:12:28] I think I made it. She did.
Tom Humphrey [00:12:30] Was it your job to teach her how to swim? Did you have to teach her how to swim?
Ione Biggs [00:12:35] No, fortunately I didn’t. But I would have to suspend my classes sometimes when it was convenient for her to come there and take another. But she was swimming one day and pulled her arm up too far and almost drowned because she had- I don’t know what it was. And I was sorry for her, but I, I didn’t cry.
Tom Humphrey [00:13:03] That’s okay. So then you became a Cleveland police officer?
Ione Biggs [00:13:09] I was badge number 3024, assigned to the Police Women’s Bureau where at that time they had women assigned to a bureau. And we were under the direction of Hazel Witt. I don’t know if you ever heard of her. Her father was Peter Witt.
Tom Humphrey [00:13:33] I know who he is.
Ione Biggs [00:13:34] You’ve heard of him. She never had to take the exam for patrol officer or sergeant or lieutenant or captain. She came in as the captain, Hazelwit. And can you imagine what the first question would be if a person called and said. Said, help, help. I’m being assaulted. Can you imagine what it would be? Are you white or colored? That was the first question that the officer on duty would ask a victim. And depending upon the response, the case would be assigned. Unless the captain was mad at somebody, some white officer. And then she’d give her all the colored cases, as they were called, that she could. So it was racism played in two ways. Against the Blacks, but also against the whites who weren’t in good favor.
Tom Humphrey [00:14:40] Right. With whites in charge.
Ione Biggs [00:14:43] Yeah.
Tom Humphrey [00:14:43] Right. The Black community in Cleveland lived primarily where when you were growing up and at this time?
Ione Biggs [00:14:54] Well, at the time I was hired, a large number of Blacks lived in what is now recognized as the former Central Area. However, they had begun- We had begun to move south and north of Central Avenue. If you can picture that.
Tom Humphrey [00:15:20] Central Avenue is-
Ione Biggs [00:15:21] Near St. Vincent Charity Hospital and Juvenile Court.
Tom Humphrey [00:15:27] Right, right. It’s over by Cuyahoga Community College.
Ione Biggs [00:15:31] And further, they all came later.
Tom Humphrey [00:15:34] Right, right. They all did come later. That was a predominantly African American community for a long time. And when African Americans would move to the city, whites who had the opportunity would steer African Americans to this part of the city. For a long time, historians had argued that. For a long time, historians had argued that communities, whether they’re racial Black communities or ethnic Irish or Jewish, what have you, form their own ghettos, a kind of neighborhood based on some kind of ethnic or racial-
Ione Biggs [00:16:21] Religious.
Tom Humphrey [00:16:22] Religious background. And in fact, what we see happening when you start to dig a little deeper is that people of one faith, race or ethnicity move into a specific region in part because that’s where their friends live, but also because they cannot move anywhere else. They find the other neighborhoods blocked. And that’s exactly what happens in Cleveland.
Ione Biggs [00:16:50] I don’t think many people realize that Italians were a large part of the Central Area during the years that I grew up in the Central Area. They were not respected and in a way, they were discriminated against in the same way that we were. And then came the Second World War and they were able to move up around Murray Hill and they changed completely. But the Italians and Negroes, as we were known, were closely knit.
Tom Humphrey [00:17:39] What was this city like? Were you the first African American woman appointed as an officer?
Ione Biggs [00:17:44] No, no, I was the fourth.
Tom Humphrey [00:17:46] The fourth. Okay.
Ione Biggs [00:17:48] Fourth or fifth. There was Nell Hackney and Virginia Houston, who were Black and preceded me, and there were two other African American women. But all four of them had college education and I did not. But they were social workers and the job had a lot more to offer than a lot of social work positions.
Tom Humphrey [00:18:29] And how long were you a police officer?
Ione Biggs [00:18:34] I think about 12 years, maybe longer. I’m not sure.
Tom Humphrey [00:18:40] So from 1956 until about 1968.
Ione Biggs [00:18:46] Around that time, yeah. And then I took an exam, a civil service exam for deputy clerk of Cleveland Municipal Court, where racism was more rampant than-
Tom Humphrey [00:19:00] Okay, so then you became a deputy clerk of court.
Ione Biggs [00:19:04] Deputy clerk.
Tom Humphrey [00:19:05] How long were you deputy clerk of courts?
Ione Biggs [00:19:07] Until I retired in 1986.
Tom Humphrey [00:19:12] Okay, so for about 20 years.
Ione Biggs [00:19:13] Yeah.
Tom Humphrey [00:19:14] Okay. And what was it like when you were deputy. When you were a deputy clerk, kind of going to work, if you could. Who were your co-workers or what were your co-workers like? You say racism was rampant. More so in the clerk’s office or in the county court system or in the court system itself. If you could describe some of that for me or for us?
Ione Biggs [00:19:42] Well, the first thing I found out after I’d been appointed was that Blacks were paid. No, that men were paid more than women.
Tom Humphrey [00:19:52] Right.
Ione Biggs [00:19:53] And I was the first president of a group in Cleveland that later became 9 to 5. And Jane Fonda came to Cleveland and sat on the floor with us in a building not far from here near Halle Brothers. Drinking, popping, eating bologna sandwiches in old torn-up blue jeans, no makeup, no curls, no jewelry. She was wonderful. But anyhow, I was first president of a group that fought the situation in Cleveland and across the country. And a movie was made of it.
Tom Humphrey [00:20:44] Yeah. This is the gender discrimination.
Ione Biggs [00:20:46] Yeah.
Tom Humphrey [00:20:47] Okay. Women were paid worse than, or were paid less than men than men for the same job. For the same job. Black women were paid less than white women for the same job. Black men were paid less than white men for the same job.
Ione Biggs [00:21:06] Yeah, but they learned to play ball. They learned to accepted. And they didn’t openly object to these Outrageous situations that I and other women, not just me, but other women, objected to-
Tom Humphrey [00:21:35] Was it safer for women, Black women to object to these conditions than it was for Black men?
Ione Biggs [00:21:44] Well, there’s a term that you’ve probably heard, Uncle Tom-ism. And I didn’t go around beating drums or blowing horns, but I very quietly checked the payroll. And that’s not against the law.
Tom Humphrey [00:22:05] Right. Right.
Ione Biggs [00:22:07] But it’s the only way you have of knowing whether you’re being treated fairly or not. And women were not being treated fairly.
Tom Humphrey [00:22:17] Right.
Ione Biggs [00:22:19] Does that answer your question?
Tom Humphrey [00:22:20] Sort of, I guess. I wonder if- I remember reading a book, actually a pivotal book, both as kind of a person and as a college professor suggested. It was suggested to me, and I’ll drop the only name I know, Staughton Lynd. It was a book called Coming of Age in Mississippi by Ann Moody. Are you familiar with this?
Ione Biggs [00:22:50] No.
Tom Humphrey [00:22:51] She was a member of the NAACP in Jackson, Mississippi, in the ’50s and a member of SNCC. Staughton Lynd was a Freedom Rider in the ’60s and taught at Spelman College before he went to Yale and taught there and was fired for his political views. It wasn’t the first place he was fired from for being politically active. But Ann Moody was a member of, predominant member of the NAACP and SNCC in Mississippi in the ’50s. And her book, Coming of Age in Mississippi is her autobiography up to the assassination of John F. Kennedy in 1963. She carries it a little bit further than that, but it’s a powerful book. And one of the things that she talked about in it was that African American men in the South, she felt that African American men who had children, who had a wife and children had a harder time kind of coming out and registering to vote, which- Registering to vote at the time there, maybe here too, was, could be life-threatening for them. And so she felt that although she was angry at them for not stepping forward and taking control or being more active, she felt that they were making a somewhat prudent decision. They were staying alive so they could provide for their families. And one of the ways that they ensured possibly their job and certainly their safety was by not being active, even though they abhorred what was going on. And I wonder if that was somewhat the case in Cleveland as well. If you encountered that or if you sense that some African American men felt that they didn’t want to become too militant. [crosstalk] Militant activists. Right. Because their jobs would threaten their jobs, maybe their lives or their welfare.
Ione Biggs [00:25:06] It could have been both. And it could have been- Would not threaten them, but jeopardize their opportunities to go to higher places. And I was a member for a long time, but I had a lot of trouble getting them to take a, play an active role in correcting a situation that was clearly illegal and discriminatory.
Tom Humphrey [00:25:38] Yes, right.
Ione Biggs [00:25:41] I talked to various civic leaders in Cleveland and religious people. And I got more assistance from 9 to 5 with Karen Nussbaum. I don’t know if you ever heard of her. Wonderful woman who was in Cleveland for many years. And as I said, she brought Jane Fonda to Cleveland. And Jane, poor Jane, gets beat up all the time for being against the war. But she did a lot of wonderful things.
Tom Humphrey [00:26:27] In the 19- Did you join the- Did you start to work for the United Farm Workers Association in the 1960s or was that later?
Ione Biggs [00:26:35] I was involved with organizations. I became very involved in the Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom, which supported, fought for peace. I attended a number of very formal national and international conferences and went to Russia twice during the Cold War. No trouble at all. It was supposed to be such a terrible period. You know, she couldn’t go there, but I had no trouble. And it was sad to see the reluctance that a lot of very wonderful people had to really standing up and trying to bring about change. Although their hearts were in the right place, they had other things they had to consider. Their jobs, their husband’s jobs. I don’t know.
Tom Humphrey [00:27:52] The reason I ask about the United Farm Workers is I wonder if you came to the City Club when César Chávez spoke. Did you come see him and what was. He spoke twice in the. I think twice, at least twice in the ’60s. What was it like to come and see him? What was he like as a speaker? What was your experience like coming to the City Club? We’ll get to the City Club in a minute.
Ione Biggs [00:28:22] I think he had everything that he needed to convince people that what he was trying to do was correct. But you must remember that every City Club member is not free to become actively involved in bringing about change. And I took chances that people used to say, aren’t you afraid you’ll lose your job? Because sometimes a well-framed question at a City Club Forum could bring discussion, even if it was just a few minutes of exchanging of opinion. You got your point across. And it was very interesting to see how people were afraid of losing their jobs or stepping on the wrong toes. But for the most part, the members of the City Club were- Well, it was mostly male and a lot of them were progressives and had a high regard for them.
Tom Humphrey [00:29:46] The City Club was all men until 1972, I think. When did you start coming to City Club Forums?
Ione Biggs [00:29:57] You know, I was trying to figure that out, and I can’t give a date exactly.
Rachel Estrin [00:30:02] You joined in ’75, I believe. I believe you joined in ’75.
Ione Biggs [00:30:06] In ’75, but I had been coming for years.
Tom Humphrey [00:30:09] Yeah, right, right. I know Chávez spoke in ’68, and I think he spoke in 1964, although I can’t be sure about the first date. I’m pretty sure about the second one.
Ione Biggs [00:30:23] There is a wonderful man. Do you know Bob Cavano?
Tom Humphrey [00:30:26] Yes, we met him just last week.
Ione Biggs [00:30:28] Yeah, well, he and I became friends as soon as I, you know, it wasn’t immediate or spontaneous, but after I came to City Club a few times, we became friends and I didn’t join the City Club for a long time. And it was Bob Cavano who very kindly took me by the hand, practically, and the ears and urged me to become a member because I was there a lot of times, you know, with, and I had always had a high regard for the City Club, and there were men and not women who really brought up interesting things. You could listen to them on the radio.
Tom Humphrey [00:31:28] Right, right. I’ll ask. You weren’t a member in 1960, but I’ll ask if you were there anyway. Did you see Bobby Kennedy speak?
Ione Biggs [00:31:39] Yes.
Tom Humphrey [00:31:40] The day after, I think it was the day after Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated.
Ione Biggs [00:31:44] I can’t hear you.
Tom Humphrey [00:31:45] I think Bobby Kennedy spoke in 1968 the day after Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated.
Ione Biggs [00:31:50] Yes.
Tom Humphrey [00:31:51] Were you here for that?
Ione Biggs [00:31:52] Yes. And it was interesting because we were in a building over on Superior at the time, before we moved here. Here, and it was a morning form, so we had to come early, but we were on duty. I mean, we were there when they were bringing fruit for our, our meal and they had big crates of things, but the FBI had to be there and examine every box of grapefruit and tomatoes and lettuce before we could come in because they were very suspicious of- It was a very interesting experience because we had to endure the hardship of standing on an elevator while they went through every head of lettuce, you know what I mean? And with the FBI there, it was quite an experience.
Tom Humphrey [00:33:06] And what was Bobby Kennedy like that day?
Ione Biggs [00:33:10] Well, I really can’t swear to it, but I think he was very serious and I can’t remember. Did he speak there before his brother was killed?
Tom Humphrey [00:33:22] I think he spoke after his brother was killed, but he also spoke right after Martin Luther King Jr. was killed.
Ione Biggs [00:33:28] Yeah, that was very moving experience.
Tom Humphrey [00:33:35] What was the city like in the weeks or in the month after Martin Luther King Jr. Was assassinated?
Ione Biggs [00:33:42] Oh, the city was in pain. Blacks and whites. And I’ve always been involved with the peace movement in the city and across the country and in other parts of the world. And a lot of us had the feeling that it was because he had intended and had made it clear that he was to going to oppose our actions in Vietnam. I have no proof of that because he was never physically harmed. Maybe a little bit of physical rocks and sticks and stones and stuff like that, but not until he opposed the war in Vietnam did anything tragic like that happen. I’ve never seen this in any article I read about it.
Tom Humphrey [00:34:49] Yeah, I haven’t either. That’s interesting.
Ione Biggs [00:34:53] You know, they allowed the whites to throw rocks, beat them up, and then there were a lot of Blacks that didn’t want him to stand up and oppose the government’s position.
Tom Humphrey [00:35:13] And why do you think that? Why did some African Americans stand up or oppose Martin Luther King Jr.’s message or oppose him?
Ione Biggs [00:35:24] Well, a lot of African Americans have been reluctant to oppose any military action that the U.S. took, like even in not only Vietnam, but look what we did in Nicaragua and other places. And can you think of any blacks that expressed outrage?
Tom Humphrey [00:35:58] I cannot, actually.
Ione Biggs [00:36:01] I think there’s a strong reluctance to oppose the military racism. Okay, do your thing. But when the United States declares war against another country, you usually get the support of the Black groups.
Tom Humphrey [00:36:39] You brought up Nicaragua. You went in the 1980s to Nicaragua with a group. Why did you go and what did your group go to Nicaragua to do?
Ione Biggs [00:36:54] Well, we went there. The group that I went with was sent by the Presbytery of the Western Reserve. And I was selected by the Church of the Covenant, where I belong, and that’s included Cleveland. We went there to see the harm that had been done to the people, how people were left. And the war was still going on in some areas, but they had carefully selected a place where we would be safe. Although at times we could hear gunshots. But we saw people who. We didn’t see many teenage boys. We saw old men, old women, young kids. We didn’t see many teenage boys. And they didn’t have the food supplies nor medical supplies. One thing that really stuck in my mind was one day we were coming back from a tour and we saw long lines of people, long lines. Men, women and young children, older men, older women and young children waiting in line for books. Can you imagine that in this country waiting in line for books in the hot sun. That’s how anxious they were to have something to read.
Tom Humphrey [00:38:40] And what did your group go there to find out or to do? Did you go to find out how the US Was involved in the war in Nicaragua to discuss. Discuss it?
Ione Biggs [00:38:55] Well, we knew that.
Tom Humphrey [00:38:56] Right.
Ione Biggs [00:38:57] We had people who had done that kind of reporting, but we went there to assess the damage and to try to get an idea of what it was going to take to help them come back. I’m not being very helpful.
Tom Humphrey [00:39:22] No, you’re being very helpful. This is great. No, you’re being absolutely perfect. Fabulous.
Ione Biggs [00:39:28] And remember, this is at a time when the Black churches were not as actively involved in trying to get these wars stopped.
Tom Humphrey [00:39:40] Right, right.
Ione Biggs [00:39:42] And that even applies to South Africa, because I was involved in a lot of that.
Tom Humphrey [00:39:52] You were involved in a group that pressed for. That was an anti-Apartheid group in Cleveland, Is that correct? You were in an anti-Apartheid group in Cleveland. What was that group?
Ione Biggs [00:40:04] Well, that was a group that sort of had no big institution. You know, it was like groups of people from different areas, like the Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom, and there were some politically active groups that weren’t accepted by a lot of people. But I always worked with everybody and anyone who opposed violence. And they were the ones who were willing to take money out of their own pockets and get flyers printed up and passed them out, stand in all kinds of weather, cold rallies, marches.
Tom Humphrey [00:41:10] You need those people. You need that kind of logistical support. If we can. Let’s talk about the City Club for a little bit. Can we do that? You joined in 1975, but you had been coming to the City Club, it sounds like, for at least 10 years. 10 years before that.
Ione Biggs [00:41:29] Yeah. I had a very good friend, her name was Carol Alexander, and her father was a board member of the City Club. And she used to come on a regular basis every Friday. And then she got. So after we got acquainted at the League of Women Voters, she started inviting me to come and sit with her father at his table. And it just got in my blood. I had always had a high regard for the City Club and never dreamt of becoming a member, but I grabbed the opportunity until finally Bob Cavano, who you say you meant, called me aside one day and he said, Ione, you come here quite often. And he said, I think you better join the City Club. And that’s how I became a member.
Tom Humphrey [00:42:31] This was in 1975?
Ione Biggs [00:42:33] Around that time.
Tom Humphrey [00:42:34] Around that time, yeah. And you’ve been a member ever since. Who were some of the more memorable speakers that kind of jump out at you, or topics, maybe?
Ione Biggs [00:42:52] Hard to say. I have the curse you acquire when you live too long. I know when I get home, I’ll think of some.
Tom Humphrey [00:43:06] Right. Were you here when I think- Oh, and you just said her name.
Ione Biggs [00:43:14] Did you say César?
Tom Humphrey [00:43:17] I’m getting to her. César Chávez. You just- Jane Fonda. You were here when Jane Fonda spoke?
Ione Biggs [00:43:25] Yes.
Tom Humphrey [00:43:26] Do you remember what she spoke about? Was this for the 9 to 5 group, or was she speaking against-
Ione Biggs [00:43:33] I think it may have been that group that she represented, but I can’t swear to it. But Jane was treated with respect here, as far as I can recall. And I’m sorry, I can’t really-
Tom Humphrey [00:43:50] No, that’s fine. That’s fine. Do you remember one of the people that. Several of the people that we’ve interviewed have mentioned is a woman named Helen Caldicott.
Ione Biggs [00:44:01] Doctor.
Tom Humphrey [00:44:02] Doctor Helen Caldicott. She was. Well. Well, maybe you could tell us your impressions of her and of her talk.
Ione Biggs [00:44:09] Well, I thought she was very well informed and committed and dedicated to ending that war. And I heard her speak many times at temples and Cleveland and, yeah.
Tom Humphrey [00:44:37] I’m trying to think of who else people mentioned. Let’s see.
Ione Biggs [00:44:47] Her speeches helped a lot of people understand why wars are held and the harm it does to the world.
Tom Humphrey [00:45:05] Do you remember anybody else who spoke here who was more of a pacifist? Somebody who spoke out against-
Ione Biggs [00:45:16] There was a bishop who spoke. I think he spoke here several times, and I can’t think of his name.
Tom Humphrey [00:45:22] I can’t think of-
Ione Biggs [00:45:26] I think he spoke here maybe a couple of years ago, and. I’m sorry.
Tom Humphrey [00:45:37] That’s okay. That’s okay. Let’s see.
Rachel Estrin [00:45:44] Can you remember anything about Frederick Holliday, the superintendent of the Cleveland schools? Do you remember anything about him?
Ione Biggs [00:45:57] And what was the name?
Rachel Estrin [00:45:59] Frederick Holliday? He committed suicide in 1985.
Ione Biggs [00:46:08] Now that you mention it, yeah. I think I listened to him on the radio at home or on TV later, but I had no idea that he was that disturbed about the Cleveland school system. I didn’t get that impression.
Rachel Estrin [00:46:42] Because he had said, and I’ll read this. He left an open letter to Clevelanders asking that they use this event to rid yourselves of petty politics, racial politics, greed, hate and corruption. The city deserves better. The children deserves better. And then afterwards, the City Club put together a special forum of what politics do to people in Cleveland. And I believe Dennis Kucinich spoke and George Forbes spoke on this event. And I was just wondering if you recollected anything about the Cleveland school systems and racism in the school systems or just had any sort of comment on that situation.
Ione Biggs [00:47:30] I wish I could, but honestly, it’s kind of hazy. I didn’t know that George Forbes made a comment about it afterwards.
Rachel Estrin [00:47:47] He said, I’ll read this, too. The Holiday suicide has nothing to do with the city of Cleveland. It was tragic incident that involved the destruction of two lives. School board member and Holiday opponent Ed Young and Fred Holliday. And that is the last time I will publicly speak about this was what he said, and that was it. So I was just wondering.
Ione Biggs [00:48:17] I wonder why.
Tom Humphrey [00:48:19] Yeah, yeah. What was the City Club like when you first started coming?
Ione Biggs [00:48:28] Well, I was excited about the City Club because it had not opened its doors to women originally for many years. And then there were some women in Cleveland, one black woman and a couple of white women who were prominent who demonstrated in front of the City Club when it was somewhere else. I forget where it was at the time.
Tom Humphrey [00:48:54] Might have been on Short Vincent. Might have been over on Short Vincent.
Ione Biggs [00:48:58] It could have been, yes, I think it was. And I had not visited the City Club before that, I don’t think, although there may have been once a year that there was something I can’t remember exactly right.
Tom Humphrey [00:49:16] They have a few kind of celebrations, like a Christmas party, a couple other things. They may have been holding the Anvil Revue at the time. Excuse me, something like that. Where I think a lot of people.
Ione Biggs [00:49:32] It’s clearly not a group where women were expected or-
Tom Humphrey [00:49:45] Do you feel like women were encouraged to come to the meetings?
Ione Biggs [00:49:50] No, I don’t. No. I just don’t think it ever occurred to any women to try to become a member or try to attend any of the first forms. And a lot of us, including me, were surprised when these women got together, white and Black. I think there was only one Black woman. I hate that term, Black. Anyhow, it. But it was something you’d listen to. Was it on Saturday afternoons or something, that it was broadcast for the public?
Tom Humphrey [00:50:44] And so you would listen on the radio and then later you started thinking, maybe I could go to one of these. Because the City Club had been racially integrated for a long time and maybe for a while was one of the few clubs in the city that was racially integrated and also was one of the early was one of the first institutions to become to admit women as well. So it had always been inclusive to a point, but didn’t kind of, I think, as somebody said the other day, Admit the other half of the population until the 1970s. So when you joined in 1975, did you start coming to meetings or to the forums more regularly? I think by then they were probably-
Ione Biggs [00:51:34] I had been coming as a guest of Carol Alexander, whose father was on the board, I believe. And then I liked it so much. I came a lot of times when she wasn’t able to come. And finally, Bob Cavano, a longtime City Club member, called me aside and said, you need to join the City Club. That’s how come I joined.
Tom Humphrey [00:52:02] And then did you continue to attend as often as you could?
Ione Biggs [00:52:07] As often as I could.
Tom Humphrey [00:52:08] And by then they were held on Friday afternoons or like Friday lunchtimes as opposed to Saturday lunchtimes. And kind of between the period when you first started going maybe over on. Well, the City Club has moved several times. Have you noticed it? Has there been a change in the atmosphere of the City Club since you.
Ione Biggs [00:52:31] Of course. Of course.
Tom Humphrey [00:52:33] And could you describe the change that you feel and what you think of it maybe?
Ione Biggs [00:52:40] Women are warmly encouraged to become members and play an active role in the operation of the club and in the decision making process. Women play a very, very active role. And it began with the former director, and I can’t think of his name. He’s dead now. He was a minister.
Tom Humphrey [00:53:16] Was it Alan Davis?
Ione Biggs [00:53:17] Alan Davis. Reverend Alan Davis, who was a minister and conducted his services in a little church on East 30th Street near Central Avenue. But this was his occupation during the week. But he was a minister and serviced his people.
Tom Humphrey [00:53:46] And were women even after women joined. You say women now are encouraged to take a more active leadership role. Do you feel like when you first. First join that women were encouraged in the same way, or was it still mostly men? Kind of the men who were.
Ione Biggs [00:54:06] For a long time it remained mostly a male institution. But there was the Women’s City Club that also existed and shared the same office as the City Club as we now know it. And that was a very wonderful organization of prominent Cleveland women and Cleveland women who were not only prominent, but in some many cases were married to men who were prominent businessmen. And for a while there, it was not uncomfortable, but it was hard for the two groups to operate under the same roof. But I’m not saying it was difficult. It was hard, but it wasn’t difficult. I don’t know what I’m trying to say anyhow. And these women did move eventually to a building near Halle Brothers.
Tom Humphrey [00:55:16] Right. Okay. Okay. Do you feel like the City Club is the same when you come to a meeting, to a forum. Do you feel like it’s the same place that it was that you first joined? The same.
Ione Biggs [00:55:30] No. When I first started coming, there was hardly ever a woman in the audience.
Tom Humphrey [00:55:37] Yeah.
Ione Biggs [00:55:38] And nowadays to have a woman be the guest speaker is almost a monthly experience. And they were able to get some very fine people. I don’t agree with all of them, but these women have achieved quite a bit. So I’d say it’s like I was going to say the wrong thing, but it’s wonderful what you’re offered as a resident of Cleveland because you don’t have to join to come. And as a member, you’re assured of a wonderful selection of men and women who can talk on a lot of different subjects.
Rachel Estrin [00:56:38] Do you remember the first time you were asked to sit at the Soviet table? Do you remember the first time you were asked to sit at the Soviet table?
Ione Biggs [00:56:47] Well, that was a table that very few people ever got a chance to sit at, and it was a very serious group of professional men who had formed that group at the Soviet table. I was invited to sit there twice, but had some wonderful members. And I can’t think of the name of the one person you’ve probably heard it, who not only was a prominent businessman, but he also played beautiful classical jazz music. And without invitation, about, oh, three or four times a year, he’d just walk across the dining room and go over to the piano and just sit down, play his heart out. And I don’t think any of that was ever taped. And it’s a shame.
Tom Humphrey [00:57:53] It sounds like it.
Ione Biggs [00:57:54] Because he had a brother who was the city champion tennis player. When I get home, I’ll think of their name.
Tom Humphrey [00:58:08] It’s not- It’s not-
Rachel Estrin [00:58:11] Peter De Leon.
Tom Humphrey [00:58:13] Peter De Leon? It’s not Peter. Is it Peter De Leon?
Ione Biggs [00:58:16] Yes. Yeah. His brother was quite a tennis player and he was also a bailiff for Judge Eastman at Juvenile Court. The brother was.
Tom Humphrey [00:58:31] Right. Right. That reminds me, you were a member. You may have seen Judge Batisti around the City Club at about the time he was ordering or issuing his court order that the Cleveland schools desegregate. Did you ever- Well, of course you wouldn’t talk to him about it because he was sitting on the case and he wouldn’t talk about it. Can you- Do you remember anything notable about the City Club or about your interactions with just Judge Batisti where- I’m sure he didn’t talk about the case, but maybe some issues like that came up in conversation at war?
Ione Biggs [00:59:19] Well, honestly, I can’t say that I do. He was very formal and I don’t think he would have included somebody not connected with the courts. He was formal and gentle, but discreet and I can remember that.
Tom Humphrey [00:59:53] Did you notice- Did the- Because the court case took a long time. Did it seem to affect him physically in any way or emotionally in any way? Did he seem any more distraught towards the end of it or high-strung or after he rendered his decision, did he seem any more ill at ease than he was we’re talking about. He did have bodyguards because he received death threats.
Ione Biggs [01:00:22] I didn’t know that.
Tom Humphrey [01:00:23] Yes, during the trial and of course after he issues the order, they really started to come fast and furious. So I wondered if you got any sense of-
Ione Biggs [01:00:36] No, I can’t- Honestly, I can’t make any comment on that because I can’t recall him ever making any statement about the.
Tom Humphrey [01:00:57] I think we’re almost- We’re almost out of time. So I want to- And I don’t want to keep you too long. What’s it like now when you come into a Forum and remembering what it was like when you walked into a Forum when you were the only woman in the room maybe? And maybe the only African American woman in the room. What’s it like now when you walk into the room and you see other women in the room and other African American women in the room for a forum?
Ione Biggs [01:01:35] Well, it happens so often that I pay no attention to it and I do feel at home and I can reach across with all 10 of my arms and shake hands and smile and get hugs sometimes and hug back. It’s warmer. I think the staff has a lot to do with it. The present director has contributed a lot to the general atmosphere that people enjoy when they come here, makes everyone feel welcome and offers all kinds of opportunities for members to avail themselves of. Of the different hours that the club is available. And I’ve come here when the dining room was filled with students in the evening around the holidays. It’s a much without losing its image as the City Club of Cleveland. It is much warmer and more like a place you consider yourself a part of. And it’s a pleasure to come here. It always was a pleasure for me. I never had any trouble. But I’ll never forget when Bob Cavano took me aside and said, Ione, don’t you think it’s time we became a member? Because I was coming in on my lunch hour, a lot of times I didn’t have a reservation and. And people identify me with the City Club. I mean, a lot of my friends because I’m always bugging them about trying to get down to hear someone.
Tom Humphrey [01:04:00] Yeah. Well, I want to thank you for coming out all this way.
Ione Biggs [01:04:04] I really enjoyed it.
Tom Humphrey [01:04:05] I enjoyed it tremendously. I can’t say enough about how impressed I am with you. So I’m going to turn all this- [recording ends]
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