Abstract
Kathleen Crowther in this 2012 interview talks about coming to Shaker Heights while growing up and then living in Shaker Heights. She remembers coming to Shaker square for special occasions, like Sunday dinner and Christmas. She also discusses Cleveland Restoration Society's restoration project, the Asa Upson house on Chagrin Boulevard. She comments on preservation in Shaker, and why the city has remained so intact. She talks about her own historic house on Fairmount Boulevard as well.
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Interviewee
Crowther, Kathleen (interviewee)
Interviewer
Smith, Kelsey (interviewer)
Project
Shaker Heights Centennial
Date
7-8-2012
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
32 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Kathleen Crowther Interview, 08 July 2012" (2012). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 915022.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/491
Transcript
Kelsey Smith [00:00:00] So I’m gonna have you say your name so I can test the sound.
Kathleen Crowther [00:00:03] I’m Kathleen Crowther. Today is still conquering the month. July 8th.
Kelsey Smith [00:00:16] Alright, so where were you born?
Kathleen Crowther [00:00:18] I was born in Cleveland, Ohio, in St. Ann’s Hospital, now demolished. I grew up in University Heights. And let’s see, at one point in our marriage, my husband and I moved here to this house. And we’ve been here for about 15 years, I think.
Kelsey Smith [00:00:37] So what made you come to Shaker Heights?
Kathleen Crowther [00:00:40] Well, I didn’t really think about us coming to Shaker Heights per se. It was the house that I’d always loved as a child growing up in the neighborhood. And it did not have a “For Sale” sign on it, but I could tell that the family that had lived in it for years and years was no longer in the house.
Kathleen Crowther [00:00:59] So I knocked on the neighbor’s door and asked about the house and we ended up buying it.
Kelsey Smith [00:01:05] When was it built?
Kathleen Crowther [00:01:07] This house was built in 1880.
Kelsey Smith [00:01:10] Do you know anything about the family?
Kathleen Crowther [00:01:13] You know, I only know a few things. I would love to have the time to do the primary research and I probably won’t until I like retire. So what I should do is hire somebody to do it. Because what I want to do is write like the story of the house and the people that lived in it. That’s one of my own personal desires to do. But I presume that it was built by a farming family and there would have been a large piece of land associated with the house. And you can tell that because there is a path, a concrete path, and someone probably just over time put concrete down on an existing path that leads behind us into the neighbor’s yard. So like is the path to nowhere. And we have a barn for a garage, which is a horse barn, I understand. So what we know about the house is that in 1920, a building permit, this building permit at Shaker City Hall indicates that they put the big wraparound porch on the house and then built a second story on the back of the house. There was a section that they must have enlarged going up on the back of the house where our kitchen currently is. So you can tell by reading the house that it used to be sort of a formula, kind of looking like a city house really, with its gable over the front door facing the street. And when they put the front porch on, they removed that gable and turned it to have it looking out at the driveway. Then the front porch itself is a very deep front porch. Very- It’s very much a usable extension of the house.
Kelsey Smith [00:03:11] Yeah. I like your front porch.
Kathleen Crowther [00:03:13] Thank you.
Kelsey Smith [00:03:15] So I guess we’ll talk about Shaker. How much have you been involved in preservation in Shaker?
Kathleen Crowther [00:03:25] Well, I feel like I know Shaker pretty well because although I didn’t grow up in Shaker, my husband did. And when you, you know, we’re really all in the same general neighborhood, the Heights area, Cleveland Heights, University Heights, Shaker Heights. And so I know a fair amount about the development of the city, and I know a fair amount about, you know, getting its place on the National Register of Historic Places. And the city. The city is very intact. There aren’t too many preservation issues, controversial issues. The biggest challenge with preservation, I think, in Shaker Heights is just the embarrassment of riches. There is so much significant architecture in the city of Shaker Heights, and it’s all reaching a point where it needs continuous maintenance or an infusion of rehabilitation monies. But Shaker is a great success story for historic preservation, really.
Kelsey Smith [00:04:36] When did they put it on the National Register?
Kathleen Crowther [00:04:39] Well, now, if you want real detailed information on that, I’m real bad at, like, commanding dates, but I think. Yeah, generally, I think it was in the ’70s or ’80s, probably the ’70s. And what is interesting. And you’ll interview other people that could, that were there. Are you going to interview Tom Jorgensen?
Kelsey Smith [00:04:58] I don’t know if he’s on the list, but I will write it down.
Kathleen Crowther [00:05:01] Well, he was, I think, chair of the Landmark Commission when they got Shaker Square on the Register. And one thing that is interesting about Shaker Square when it was listed, was that they were able to convince the keeper of the National Register of Historic Places that the age requirement of 50 years should be deviated from, because there were some buildings that weren’t quite that old that were designed to be in the Georgian style and sort of of the look of the area. And they were successful in getting that achieved. Yeah.
Kelsey Smith [00:05:53] Was that a community pushed to get things better?
Kathleen Crowther [00:05:57] I don’t really know, to tell you the truth. I would imagine Friends of Shaker Square, which was the organization at the time over there, would have been very supportive. And, you know, the people at Moreland Courts is a great now condominium building in- Part of it’s in Cleveland, part of it’s in Shaker Heights. But I’m sure that the people in those grand apartment houses there would have been very supportive of it. I mean, Shaker Square was- When I was growing up, you know, it was a destination, a place to go, because it was so, I wouldn’t use the word fancy, although in its day, it was, but it was a unique place. And there were unique places there. There was Clark’s Restaurant, and we would go there. We knew it was a special thing to go to Clark’s Restaurant on a Sunday. Usually if our family would go out to dinner, you know, mom, dad and the kids, that was a special thing. And also the Christmas lights were. Is my strongest memory of Shaker Square because they would always deck the square out in great Christmas lights. And we had a family tradition of my dad would take us in the car down to see the Christmas lights, and when we returned home, by then Santa Claus would have come and all of our gifts would be under the tree. So we were allowed to open the gifts. Then it was Christmas Eve. Yeah.
Kelsey Smith [00:07:41] Does CRS do anything in Shaker?
Kathleen Crowther [00:07:45] Well, we do a lot, actually, in Shaker. We have our Heritage Home Program in Shaker, which means that we provide technical assistance to homeowners on the maintenance and repair of their older houses. And we also have a low-interest loan program that’s available to Shaker residents to repair their houses. So it’s very important because the houses in Shaker are very special houses, and it’s best to maintain them. Maintain the original features of the house and the original materials of the house. [coughs] I have a little bit of an allergy here and a dry throat, so I should probably get a glass of water for me and maybe for you. So what is best for the beauty of the house, really, and for the beauty of the whole city and neighborhood is when people keep in good condition the existing wood, stone, leaded glass windows, brick shingles, whatever it is, when they keep them in good repair, which is continuous maintenance now. And when something has to be repaired or replaced, replacing it in kind, ideally. So we recommend a conservation approach to materials rather than, you know, a replacement approach. And it’s important to think about because in this. In our world, there are a lot of companies out there that want to sell you new windows and vinyl siding, etc. And they- These companies pitch it that, well, it’s energy, you know, efficient, more energy efficient, and it’s- You’ll never have to paint again. Well, you need to really examine those arguments because there are answers to all of those. And there is- There are ways to make your house energy efficient without spending enormous amounts of money on new windows and removing perfectly good windows usually. So we espouse more of a conservation approach.
Kelsey Smith [00:09:58] I live in an old house, and we have old, drafty windows.
Kathleen Crowther [00:10:02] Where do you live?
Kelsey Smith [00:10:03] I live in Chesterland.
Kathleen Crowther [00:10:04] Oh, okay. What kind of windows do you have?
Kelsey Smith [00:10:06] They’re six over six. 1888.
Kathleen Crowther [00:10:08] Oh, my God. Whoa. Whoa. So now you have a real challenge on your hands because you have precious windows, really.
Kelsey Smith [00:10:21] I know.
Kathleen Crowther [00:10:22] And so you really have to move slowly and get the right people and, you know, you could install exterior storm windows, by the way, that will help a lot if you don’t have them.
Kelsey Smith [00:10:35] We have been slowly replacing old storms that were on there.
Kathleen Crowther [00:10:38] Yeah, yeah. Oh, boy. That’s very special. A lot of that- [cross talk] Yeah. Yeah. Okay, let me give- You want to have some water?
Kelsey Smith [00:10:47] That’d be great. Thanks. [Crowther walks away]
Kathleen Crowther [00:11:05] [in distance] I’m having so much fun being alone. [Jump cut, normal volume resumes] Is that different from more tight?
Kelsey Smith [00:11:14] I don’t know.
Kathleen Crowther [00:11:15] Seal and peel. Okay.
Kelsey Smith [00:11:16] The plastic a couple times, But I have a cat, and she enjoyed the- That doesn’t do anything for you.
Kathleen Crowther [00:11:20] Oh, plastic is- There are whole, like, monographs and lots of material for you. So if your dad needs help, just let us know. But. But it sounds like you guys appreciate the windows anyways. I mean, some- You gotta love them because you could easily begin to hate them, you know, but having wavy glass and the true divided light.
Kelsey Smith [00:11:45] We’re more about the look- [crosstalk]
Kathleen Crowther [00:11:47] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, this window salesman try and sell you. Oh, you won’t see any difference. I just want to die. Yes, of course you see a difference. You know, there’s- There is no doubt a difference. And something that’s on my mind these days is the fact that vinyl is not biodegradable. So we’re in this big mode of being sustainable, and people are covering their houses with vinyl that will never degrade. It should be outlawed. So.
Kelsey Smith [00:12:27] Yeah, yeah.
Kathleen Crowther [00:12:30] But our [inaudible] will never deteriorate. I guess. It will degrade. [laughs] Yes. Yeah. There’s a different look too. You know, if you are looking at wood versus plastic, there is better, greater beauty in wood. It’s warmer. It’s got a certain type of depth and feel to it without even touching it. So there’s an inherent beauty in wood that you just don’t get in vinyl.
Kelsey Smith [00:13:11] Because I’ve seen houses like ours, farmhouse, covered in vinyl, and you’re just like, it doesn’t look right. Of course, to my eye. But also, it just doesn’t look the same.
Kathleen Crowther [00:13:24] Yeah. Well, we hope one day someone will come and remove the vinyl because it will discolor, it will ding, it will fall off in sections. Whatever it is, it’ll deteriorate or, you know, no longer look shiny new. And we’re finding that in other locations with aluminum siding. Aluminum siding now has scrap retail scrap value. So people who want to get down to the original material of the house, can remove the old aluminum siding and get a little money toward their repair, if needed, of the wood siding underneath.
Kelsey Smith [00:14:10] If only there was scrape value for vinyl.
Kathleen Crowther [00:14:15] Yeah, we can only hope. Let’s hope.
Kelsey Smith [00:14:19] Yeah. Alright, so I know you guys just recently sold the Upson house.
Kathleen Crowther [00:14:26] Yes.
Kelsey Smith [00:14:26] Tell me a little bit about that?
Kathleen Crowther [00:14:27] Yeah, that’s a- That’s a fun story to talk about, I think, because it was a little wooden house that languished on the market during a real bad time in the housing market, too. But it was a peculiar little house, but it had been loved in the past. But since it was on the market without anyone buying it for a couple years, it began to look a little sad and- But we’re pretty good. We’re experts at looking at very sad houses or properties, ones that are absolutely, you know, go the full gamut into, you know, structural problems, and we see what it could be. So that did not deter us whatsoever. And we saw that it had a big, was on a big piece of land and was in really a good location in many respects. And that part of Chagrin Boulevard does- It’s- You cannot hear Chagrin Boulevard. It’s not that- It’s not a real busy street right there. So we approached the owners about the idea of donating the house to us so that they could get a tax deduction and we could fix the house up and convey it to somebody that would love the house because it had been listed. I guess I wouldn’t want to name the firm, but it didn’t fit the formula of your standard Shaker Heights realtor and house. It did not fit the formula. You know. What’s the formula? Well, the formula is, you know, a large kitchen or hopefully a gourmet kitchen, a family room, you know, lots of bathrooms. It didn’t fit that formula at all. It was a very quirky house. It had itsy bitsy little kitchen. There was no family room by today’s standards. There were not enough baths. I mean, the list went on and on of how it didn’t fit the formula. But we know that there are people that actually want quirky houses that actually would see that one room that was built later on after, you know, that as a potential studio or a potential office with a separate entrance for clients, you know, and so the owners, graciously, and they took a tax deduction, we hope, donated the house to us. And we did a little bit of improvement. Not a lot, honestly. And what we did was we promoted the house to our audience for what we saw in the house. And we valued. It’s how unusual it is. We wrote the history of the house, which allowed somebody to come in and appreciate what the house was. I mean, it’s one of the oldest houses in Shaker Heights. We followed the history of the owners. You could see where they built the additions and why they built the additions. We realized why. Some of the iron, shoe horn, iron pieces. There was a couple- There were a couple tools. And were they horseshoes in the back porch because of the blacksmith shop? No doubt. They were handed down with the house over the generations. So once you have a deeper understanding of how that house came to be and why it grew the way it did, and you can actually sort of imagine the people, I think that helped people understand and appreciate the house. So the people that bought the house, it’s a young family. I love this story too. Put this in if you can. First of all, they were perfect for us because they didn’t want your standard house. They wanted a quirky house. So the quirkiness that had previously went against it was actually to its benefit. And then secondly, the guy, the family that bought it, the husband is a chef. He is the number- He’s right under Michael Simon, the Iron Chef, Downtown. He’s like a big, you know, he’s a very important chef. And maybe they’ll expand the kitchen, maybe they won’t. You know, not everybody has to have a gourmet kitchen. You know, some of us eat to live versus live to eat. And a chef has the kitchen. He didn’t complain about the kitchen. And you know what I think is also kind of an up and coming thing is to have enough land where you can have a cottage garden or a vegetable garden like we have right out here. I don’t know if you noticed, because people are more health conscious. And if you can grow your own tomatoes and lettuce, you know, isn’t that kind of cool?
Kelsey Smith [00:19:41] Yeah, I know all about that.
Kathleen Crowther [00:19:43] Yeah, I bet you do. Living in Chesterland, uh huh.
Kelsey Smith [00:19:47] I liked your comment about seeing the potential in very sad houses, because that was my house.
Kathleen Crowther [00:19:52] Yeah. Well, also, in the old days, your parents would probably appreciate this. The market has changed. But young people like their first starter houses. They were willing to do work, you know, they wanted- They could get a house at a bargain and then, you know, fix it up a little bit. Well, I don’t know why that seems to have gone by the wayside, but maybe not totally.
Kelsey Smith [00:20:16] Yeah, my parents never fit that. They were looking- This was our second house, so they were looking for something to work on.
Kathleen Crowther [00:20:22] Yeah, yeah, right.
Kelsey Smith [00:20:24] We were the quirky family that had the quirky house. They’re out there.
Kathleen Crowther [00:20:27] Yeah, right, right. I mean, it’s- Yeah, they’re out there. Meaning they’re real quirky.
Kelsey Smith [00:20:34] The houses and the people that we’re looking for.
Kathleen Crowther [00:20:37] Oh, I think they’re out there too. I don’t think they’re gone. I- The husband of this family, someone from our office said he really wants to get his hands dirty. I think there is something to men, you know, maybe women too, wanting to do something with their hands, you know, to create something. And I mean, look at HGTV and all these magazines that’s all about creating your own personal space and. Yeah, they’re not going to go away. Yeah.
Kelsey Smith [00:21:10] Yeah. That is a neat story. So what happened? Why do you think that Shaker stayed so well preserved? I mean, compared to a lot of places?
Kathleen Crowther [00:21:27] Well, there would be a few reasons for that. First of all, the quality of the houses in Shaker is tops. So people want to live in a house so well-designed and constructed. So the quality of the house has withstood the test of time. The houses have withstood the test of time as well. They’re well built, well designed, and there will be many instances where people, you know, where the house, even if people have not maintained it perfectly, is in better condition than a poorly built house and a poorly designed house. So people like the houses. They still like the houses. They love the houses. They love the houses. Secondly, Shaker Heights is very beautifully laid out as a garden suburb. So it is close to public transportation. It has beautiful parks, it has variety of streets, so you can take big long walks or bicycle rides and, you know, enjoy straight streets, curvy streets, lakes, parks. It’s a wonderful place to- There’s variety in the streetscape, the trees. Shaker has made a very conscious investment in its street trees. Very important. Street trees are very important to the beauty of suburbs, entering suburbs, to keeping it nice and cool. And that’s not inexpensive. And then the city itself has been very well-run. It is. Shaker is truly a community. People know each other. People want to preside as a council person or a mayor of this city. And they, you know, it truly is a well run city. And I can say that because we work with so many different cities and we see there is. I am so proud that I’m a Shaker resident because I do see it. And people will complain about the point-of-sale inspections, the whole inspection process, but that has been very important to maintaining the city, the housing stock of the city. So now I haven’t said anything about the schools. But, you know, the schools, of course, are extremely important and highly regarded, and people definitely move to the city for the schools.
Kelsey Smith [00:24:23] What is the point-of-sale inspection?
Kathleen Crowther [00:24:25] Inspection when you go to sell a house? A big list of. Hopefully it’s not a big list of violations. City building code violations. And so either you have to, as the seller of the house, fix all those, or the buyer has to fix them. And what happens is they’re very strict. They’ll tick everything up. When we bought this house, there nine pages of building codes violations. Now, that means they look at every single one of these windows, and if a rope is broken, like it is over there, that’s one listing. So. But if we were to sell our house today, I mean, I cringe at what they would say. You know, the barn has to be painted, you know, the windows over here, I don’t know. I mean, there’s- There could be a zillion little things. So. So if you have a house that’s on the market in Shaker with, you know, zero code violations, that’s. That’s something to be proud of.
Kelsey Smith [00:25:42] Especially in an old house.
Kathleen Crowther [00:25:44] Yeah. Yeah. So the. Tell me again what the purpose of the oral history is.
Kelsey Smith [00:25:52] In the app, on each site, we have audio clips. They’re short, like minute to two-minute clips from longer oral histories. So, like the story we told about the Upson house.
Kathleen Crowther [00:26:02] Yeah.
Kelsey Smith [00:26:03] Probably clip some of that and put it on site.
Kathleen Crowther [00:26:05] Oh, good. Okay.
Kelsey Smith [00:26:06] So things like that.
Kathleen Crowther [00:26:07] Okay.
Kelsey Smith [00:26:11] Yeah. They also all go into a database eventually. That database is supposed to be public. But we’re waiting on a lot of things, apparently. Yeah, I haven’t heard much about the project. They haven’t said a lot. They were going to do that this summer, so. Okay, so the longer interviews.
Kathleen Crowther [00:26:29] Right.
Kelsey Smith [00:26:30] That the public could access for research purposes.
Kathleen Crowther [00:26:33] Right, Right. You know, I thought of something that I’ve heard. Maybe you could find out about it. The services here, Shaker Heights, well, the garbage, the mail are always, you know, hailed as being great services. And I can give a couple examples. When we moved into this house, the mailman introduced himself, first and last name, welcomed us to Shaker Heights, and we just, like, got to know him practically. And we came. We lived in Tremont for seven years in the city of Cleveland. And I swear they lost our mail. We never would know who the mailman. There’s a different mailman every week, you know, but they have, you know, this is like a premier route, Shaker Heights, you know, they want those routes. And so that was a mailman. And when my dad. My dad lived with us for almost a year. He had a major stroke. He had a big stroke and he couldn’t live at his house, he couldn’t drive, all that stuff. And so we just said, you stay here for a while, Dad. And so he slept in our back bedroom. And one day he didn’t feel well and he didn’t know why. I had a headache and I was supposed to go to work and, you know, I didn’t know what was going on. It was scary. So I called 911 and by God, those guys were here like a minute. I mean, the Shaker, the police and fire response is like so fast. We undid our alarm because we don’t have a proper hood for our stove. And I one time was searing a pot roast and it set off the alarm and I was like, oh, God. I called and said, don’t come. It’s just this pot roast. Sorry, we have to come. So they come anyways, you know. But the thing I’ve heard about Shaker Fire Department is that they’re trained. I don’t know if this is true or not, but that they’re trained if there is a fire in a house, to go in and quickly recognize fine antiques, tarp them, roll up carpeting, unscrew chandelier things so the water will come down and not soak the floor up there. There’s like a protocol for fancy houses now. I heard that many years ago. I mean, some of these houses in Shaker, the interiors are phenomenal.
Kelsey Smith [00:29:30] That would be pretty awesome if that was true.
Kathleen Crowther [00:29:32] Yeah. Check it out. Yeah.
Kelsey Smith [00:29:40] I’ll have to see. You know, I don’t think I have any more.
Kathleen Crowther [00:29:43] Are you going to interview people that have been in, like, significant houses and like, tell the story of who’s lived there and things like that?
Kelsey Smith [00:29:53] We’ve done some. I interviewed Mary Webb Scibana, who lived in the Moses Warren house, and she actually knew two of the previous owners of the three that were there before. So.
Kathleen Crowther [00:30:07] Yes.
Kelsey Smith [00:30:07] In the family for a long time.
Kathleen Crowther [00:30:09] Yes.
Kelsey Smith [00:30:09] Palmer’s had it. She had some stories from them because she knew the daughters, which was neat. And then she knew the Bruchners as well.
Kathleen Crowther [00:30:16] And then.
Kelsey Smith [00:30:17] So I got that one. I’m going to interview George Cannon and I think some of my co-workers have interviewed other people as well. I interviewed. It’s not. We don’t have a site for all of these houses yet because I think they mostly did the sites of whatever is a Shaker Landmark is what went up first.
Kathleen Crowther [00:30:41] Oh, sure.
Kelsey Smith [00:30:42] Yet. And that’s, I think, something that we’re going to work on. Getting done.
Kathleen Crowther [00:30:45] Yeah.
Kelsey Smith [00:30:45] Because we had a ton of Ludlow interviews.
Kathleen Crowther [00:30:47] Oh, yeah.
Kelsey Smith [00:30:49] We’re in the Community Association and stuff like that.
Kathleen Crowther [00:30:51] Right. Oh, that’s great.
Kelsey Smith [00:30:53] I interviewed a woman about Ludlow, but then we ended up talking about her house because it was the first house in Shaker built in the Frank Lloyd Wright style. I went over to her house and that was amazing.
Kathleen Crowther [00:31:04] Yeah.
Kelsey Smith [00:31:05] You know, get to do a site on that.
Kathleen Crowther [00:31:06] Then maybe you should try and do, like, the Van Sweringen house. Is someone doing that?
Kelsey Smith [00:31:12] I think that’s on the list.
Kathleen Crowther [00:31:13] Yeah.
Kelsey Smith [00:31:14] I have to look the list again because Gail annotated it. So some, most of the time we know kind of what maybe to ask.
Kathleen Crowther [00:31:22] Right.
Kelsey Smith [00:31:22] Hard still to figure out what to ask.
Kathleen Crowther [00:31:24] Right, Right.
Kelsey Smith [00:31:26] I’m not sure if she actually got a hold of whoever lives in the Van Sweringen because I remember talking about-
Kathleen Crowther [00:31:31] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I hope I’m a good enough interviewee for you.
Kelsey Smith [00:31:38] I mean, if you think of anything to add?
Kathleen Crowther [00:31:39] I should know more about this house. You’re making me think. I just have to call. I have to hire someone to do it. The president of John Carroll University told me there’s a photograph in his office that might include the house. And there’s a photograph up at the barbershop at Fairmont Circle that, you know, they have aerial photographs of what this area looked like before it was developed. So, I need another lifetime for all of this stuff.
Kelsey Smith [00:32:10] I know. It’s fun, though.
Kathleen Crowther [00:32:12] Yeah, it’s very fun.
Kelsey Smith [00:32:14] My house.
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