Abstract
Charlene Higgenbotham, a Shaker Heights resident, recounts her childhood and the formative influence her parents had on she and her sister. Higgenbotham had a lot of jobs over the years and moved around. She was also active in her daughter, Joy's, education and is happy with her success. Higgenbotham is happy to live in Shaker Heights because it is integrated and multicultural and is also active in the United Church of Christ. In the interview Higgenbotham also talks about how she was not very aware of race when she was younger and so she recounts how she became aware of issues of race and the effect it had on her life.
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Interviewee
Higgenbotham, Charlene (interviewee)
Interviewer
Halligan-Taylor, Gabriella (interviewer)
Project
Shaker Heights Centennial
Date
6-27-2012
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
57 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Charlene Higgenbotham Interview, 27 June 2012" (2012). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 915018.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/497
Transcript
Charlene Higgenbotham [00:00:00] Well, are you gonna. You gonna ask me questions? Yeah. Okay.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:00:03] It’s also. It’s kind of. You have to do free form, too. Just not keep talking, keep telling stories. That’s fine. Just kind of basic. Just kind of say your name. When and where are you born? Oh, yeah, yeah, Go ahead and just say what. What’s your name? When were you born? Where are you born?
Charlene Higgenbotham [00:00:27] Charlene Higgenbotham. I was born in Earle, Arkansas, in 1943…. So I just celebrated my birthday last Thursday.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:00:39] It’s my half birthday.
Charlene Higgenbotham [00:00:42] Oh, good. Of course, that’s summertime for me. And I think my mother should have named me Summer because I really love summer.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:00:54] What was it like? Did you stay in Arkansas?
Charlene Higgenbotham [00:00:56] No, actually, after my father got out of the service, he and my mother, we moved to Cleveland in 1945. We had cousins here, and we stayed with them for a little while, and then we stayed with another lady, Mrs. Coleman. And then my father bought two houses and we lived in one and he rented the other one. So I did grow up in Cleveland, went to school in Cleveland pretty much until I got married.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:01:30] What neighborhood did you go [illegible]?
Charlene Higgenbotham [00:01:33] 75th and Kinsman. So whenever I go that way now, I look to the. If I’m going down Kinsman, I look to the left and see the street. And of course, they have apartment buildings there now. And we actually had to move out of our house because they were doing the Garden Valley renewal plan at that time. And that took out all the little houses back off of 75th. Our street was Rouse, R-O-U-S-E, Rouse Avenue. And then we moved to East 116th and Kinsman, which was kind of traumatic because I was really anticipating going to East Tech High School. I mean, the best basketball team, you know, in the whole state of Ohio. And all my friends from junior high, of course, were going to go to East High, but I wound up at Nathan Hale and then later attended John Adams. [crosstalk] Yes.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:02:45] So what was it like kind of going through the Cleveland school district? Was it in 1950s, early ’60s?
Charlene Higgenbotham [00:02:54] Right, 1950s elementary school. And it was interesting because I had white and Black teachers. And I remember Mr. Zimmerman was my teacher. The teachers, all my teachers were very interested in me. I thought that you could. And that, you know, that means that they were interested in your success. And if you were doing something you shouldn’t, they would correct you. But it was about learning. And so it was a good mix in the elementary school at that time. And your teachers were part of the community. I was sharing with one of the church groups because I thought we should have a garden ministry, neighborhood gardens. So I had a garden every year. And my third grade teacher, Mrs. Burke, would come by and inspect my garden. And we were talking about the Cleveland Botanical Garden, which then was just the Cleveland Gardens Center. And my mother canned my little green beans for me, and I won a little ribbon. And I still have the pen from the Cleveland Botanical Gardens. It’s kind of rusty and kind of, you know, doesn’t shine as much, but it was a sense of pride. And then because my sister was two years ahead of me, I got the teachers that she had. And my sister really was a. Then they called it. Oh, I’ve forgotten, but it was like a scholar, you know. Now I think it’s gifted and talented or something. But she and another student were one of the first African American students that were recommended to attend East Boulevard School by the same Mrs. Burke, the third grade teacher. And so she had to leave that school and take the bus up to East Boulevard, which is right across now from the 93rd Street Police Station. But it was across from the Woodhill Park, and that was quite a big to do. And she matriculated all the way through junior high anyway. But of course, when my mother and father would come to open house apparent night, they would talk about my sister. They’d say, well, how is Rochelle doing? You know, so it was a sibs, sibling rivalry. But it pointed up to the fact that. How my dad in particular would look at my report card and he’d say, well, is that the best you can do, baby? You know, because my grades were usually C’s and B’s, but my sister always had, you know, A’s. So later, when I. Of course, I only had one daughter, but now I have two grandsons, and I just read their evaluations while I was visiting. You do have. Your children are different. And while my mother would just say, do your best, my father always expected me to do better. And that’s an interesting story in itself, because dad really had a real. He was really committed to education. And so he stressed that. And he used to have long conversations and debates with his friends. He would sometimes get my sister up out of bed to make his point or verify a question. And that played into her life later, too. The whole wanting to prove to my father that she could and still was successful and. And as smart and intelligent as he wanted her and thought she was.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:06:46] What did your father do?
Charlene Higgenbotham [00:06:48] Now, that’s another thing. My father actually had some college education. And during that time, for him that was kind of unusual. He grew up in Mississippi and went to Yazoo City, Mississippi College. But then the war came, and so, you know, he was drafted and went to the war. So after the war, when they moved up here, Daddy went to. It was in East Technical School. They taught, you know, a lot of technical trades, and he worked at the VA Hospital out in Brecksville. But he learned refrigeration and, you know, all that kind of stuff. Now, what you would be doing, fixing air conditioners and refrigerators and that type of thing. And he and another white fellow, which, again, was unusual when you think back, opened up a business together and everybody. Would know our house because we always had refrigerators and washing machines and stuff sitting out on the front porch around the garage and everything. So, you know, I remember that. But then later he was a construction worker. Sam W. Emerson Construction Company. And I really think. I really think that that affected my father in a lot of ways because he would sometimes say, oh, those monkeys. That was his word, monkey. Oh, those monkeys. They don’t know what they’re doing. And I think he was very frustrated at the fact that he did have some college education and that he probably did know a lot more than the men that he worked for. But because of the times in race relations and such, he did not matriculate in areas or do as well. You know, he could have been a foreman or a supervisor, probably because he was always talking about the hypotenuse and the MC square, all these things. And so I think that was a major frustration for him, that he really just wasn’t as successful as he could have been and all the things that were going on during the 50s. So that affected him in a lot of ways. He was a weekend alcoholic. He started drinking on Friday and that would end on Sunday, Monday. All through the week, you could set your clock on him. He’d come home at 5 o’clock, we’d have dinner, everybody sat at the table at 8, he’d share some of what was going on, or he would ask my sister about school and very quiet. So it was a different character during the week. But the weekends, I guess that was just his way of letting off steam of frustration. And of course, that also helped him to be in denial about his alcoholism. So it was some kind of. And then of course, his attitude, too. He would become belligerent. So it was a whole different. It was like living with two different fathers during that time when I was growing up.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:10:22] Besides kind of your father not being able to work up the ladder, really, in his career, was there any other kind of discrimination that you or your family encountered?
Charlene Higgenbotham [00:10:32] And, you know, I didn’t know it at the time. You know, you hear it when you’re older. And they called it redlining. So the fact that. I mean, I’m sure he paid cash, you know, down payment, cash for the house, and then he had to work. You couldn’t get loans and things. And so that dictated also to the neighborhoods. When we moved from 75th and kinsman, we moved into 116th, between Kinsman and Benham or Union. And we had Italian neighbors that lived in the front of us because it was a little house that set back off the road. So, again, most of the Blacks during that time did live right off Kinsman or Mount Pleasant. Later was Miles Heights, but mostly confined to the east side. And because Daddy was quiet when he wasn’t drinking, I never really heard any stories of, you know, blatant racism. And as children, you’re not as conscious of it because your world just kind of revolves around your environment and your parents and the people. And again, when I got to junior high, although we had white teachers and I had Black teachers there, too, but it was a predominantly Black school. There were very few white students. There were some Polish children that I remember we played. My sister, in particular, played with in the community because she called one day and my father was loud in the background, and she says, oh. She says, doesn’t your father like white people? And my sister said, no, no, no. She said, he’s just, you know, that’s just the way he is or something. But shortly thereafter, they moved, and then there was, I think, a Mexican family, too, that lived in some of the apartments. So around those early ’50s, the neighborhood itself was rather, you could say, integrated. But then the move and the shift was taking place. My mother did day work, so that meant she went out and cleaned and did that kind of work for people in Shaker Heights. So it was that kind of era in terms of domestic work for women and just labor for my dad. But as children, I don’t think we were as aware. As I got older, there was a lot of discussion about the school system and the segregation. And then that’s when they. I remember when they implemented busing to try to integrate the schools more. And of course, you know, the schools on the east side that were predominantly Black, they talked about curriculum and resources not being as great as, you know, the other schools. So some of that. And that’s when the school desegregation and all was going on too, and the south and a lot of violence around that. I really didn’t began to experience racism and didn’t even know how to identify as that until after I graduated and started applying for jobs. And I know most of the people that left high school at that time would go down to Ohio Bell and I went down and took the test. And boy, was I just so distraught when they told me I didn’t pass the test. And it was a puzzle because I knew other students and kids that had graduated with me didn’t think they were any smarter necessarily. They had passed the test. And the difference was they didn’t look like me. And at that time, you really couldn’t challenge it. If you asked if you see the test results, they said no. They didn’t allow that. So there was no explanation. You just had to take their word for it. And you know, in retrospect, that played on my own self-esteem. So then of course, the older you got and you broadened your circle of friends, and so then you hear different discussion. And then of course, the Hough riots occurred. And then of course, you know, what’s going on in Los Angeles and all around the country, interestingly enough. And I wonder, you know, why I wasn’t as conscious of it as I am now. I wasn’t as aware of what was going on in the south, even though we went south every summer. And of course, the rules there were very clear, but we didn’t know to the extent because Earl was a very small town and everybody knew my grandmother and they even knew my mother, and they knew that we weren’t from Earl. So when we would go in the grocery store or something, they’d either greet us by saying that, or you miss Liza’s granddaughters from up north, or how’s red? Talking about my mother, because my mother had red hair, green eyes, she’s fair. So when we didn’t say yes ma’am and no ma’am or yes sir, it was because they really knew that we weren’t from there. But my sister was pretty rebellious. And so I remember we were standing in the dairy freeze line with my cousins, and first place she wanted to stand in the line and said whites, and my cousins yanked her. And then she says, well, we were first. We were here first. Because of course they would wait on all the people in the line, in the white line first, and my cousins would keep yanking her. And then we would go to the show and we’d have to sit in the balcony. And again, I was kind of Unconscious of it. But my sister was very aware. And of course, the cousins who lived there all the time knew their place, so to speak. And then we stopped going when I was about 12. Then we didn’t go anymore. And of course, then my sister was becoming a teenager and we were staying home then, and we could stay home then before, when my mother was working and so we were out of school, I think it was more about, like, now when I go stay with my grandchildren, it’s about the parents not being home and not wanting to leave the children alone, you know, so it was that kind of thing. But now I keep questioning when I read the histories of the civil rights movement and Dr. King and some of the groups, and I said, well, where was I and what was I doing and why didn’t I know this was going on? And of course, the media isn’t like it was then. I mean, nothing can happen. I mean, if it’s not the media TV, it’s- I mean, things can go viral on YouTube and Facebook. So that probably played a lot into it that you really didn’t. Unless it was the hoses on the dogs and the hoses, things like that. And of course, we didn’t have a television till I broke my leg, fell off a bike. And then Daddy went out and bought a television. But when Howdy Doody came on, we went to the one neighbor’s house that had the television, and we had chairs set up just like we were in a theater. And all the kids just went there and watched Howdy Doody. You know, it’s Howdy Doody time. I mean, the whole block just cleared out, but everybody didn’t have a television. So even that, you know, was your access to news. Now, Daddy read the paper every day, of course, but he didn’t. Daddy didn’t talk about race relations. He didn’t. And when James Brown came out with that, I’m Black and I’m proud Daddy didn’t want you to call him Black. So it was so, you know, it was like you said, the tone in your home and the discussion sets your tone or your base of knowledge. And my sister and I were talking about. We had to question our mother, even about some of our relatives. They didn’t even talk much about, you know, the ancestors or how they grew up. So a lot of research now on our own. And my sister really was that historian type person and the one that held a memory for the family. So now, believe it or not, I’m the oldest. I just turned 69 last Thursday. Surprise. Surprise. So next summer, I’m hoping that we can have a family reunion of the direct descendants of my grandmother’s line can follow that line and gather in Memphis, because Earl is only about 45 miles from west Memphis, and I have a nephew, my sister’s youngest son, who lives in Memphis, and they have a lot of state parks around there. And so some other relatives too, in Mississippi and Tennessee, hopefully will be able to gather and get those. That was part of what my sister really wanted to do. She created a newsletter, and I actually finished it and published it last year in her memory. So we can identify who we are. And it’s quite a few cousins out there that my children don’t know and my daughter and her children don’t know. So that’d be a good thing.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:20:56] Yeah. So after you said you took the Ohio Bell test, did you go off to college after that or did that kind of like, set you back?
Charlene Higgenbotham [00:21:05] Well, I wanted to be a nurse. And by that time my mother and father had divorced and my father was living in California. And he said that he would send me to nursing school. So I took off that September, you know, afterwards, and went out to California. Well, when I got out there, then he told me he really didn’t have the money. So I went to night school and took some courses there. And then I got a little job making widgets of some kind. I don’t even remember. I just remember sitting at a desk and maybe it was a call order catalog calling something or other, I don’t know. So that, you know, that went on for maybe a year. But my boyfriend was. Of course, he was still here. And so then I came back. It must have been in. Maybe it was in 63. And my mother scraped together the money and I went to Jane Addams School of Practical Nursing. And that was a year course at the time. And by that time, mother had moved office. They say you never move too far from your origins in all of their life. And so mother was living in Garden Valley off 79th in Kinsman. And I was telling my girlfriend, I remember getting up at 6:30 in the morning, standing out there on the corner, 79th in Kinsman, for the number 14 bus. Because there again, when I finished the. When I was ready to do the practical work, they assigned you to a hospital or a health system. Now, I was closer to Mount Sinai Hospital at the time, but somehow or another I got assigned to Metro Health and that was really the old City hospital. And so I had to go way, you know, my world was all around. East 79th and Kinsman. I had to go way over to the west side, you know, which meant you went downtown and you changed buses. And at that time, I think it. Was the number 25, you had to go out Scranton Road because you had to be on the floor, shoes polished, no runs in your stockings, white crisp uniform, and your cap, which should not also be dirty or have any grease marks at 7 o’clock. And so that means you had to get in, get in your locker, get your stuff on. I mean, winter, spring or fall, you know, so that was quite a trek. So I graduated in the fall of 64. A lot of things happened in ’64. I turned 21 in ’64. I got married on my birthday, I think in 64. And then I graduated in the fall of September, I think it was ’64. And my husband and I moved to Longwood, which is now the newer apartments - they tore down Longwood - but that was a nice little place to be income based right there at 34th and Woodland. And he got a job at A and P, which is no longer a grocery store here, right down the street on Woodland, because that was like the farmers market. And there was a big market right there at 55th, that big intersection just like it is over on the west side now. It was because my mother used to east side market. My mother shopped there when we were young. And of course the streetcars were all up and down the street then. So. And I lucked out and got a job at the old St. Alexis Hospital, which was off of 55th and Broadway. And I say lucked out because it was in the recovery room, and recovery room was only Monday through Friday. I mean, I was all prepared, you know, to work shifts and all this and that, holidays and such. So, you know, I just took the bus right up to 55th and Woodland, then rode it over to Broadway, and then I walked back over to St. Alexis. And so things went on pretty well until the Vietnam War came and my husband, to keep being drafted into the army, he joined the Air Force. And then things like you say, the later ’60s were pretty turbulent because he was in the Air Force for four years and things kind of slid downhill. That’s why I’m very empathetic to the families of returning veterans and those that, you know, are holding down the household while their husbands are away. And most of our military now are in war zones.
Charlene Higgenbotham [00:26:23] So actually my husband was home based, Mountain Home, Idaho. And his last year, we thought he was going to make it through. And his last, last year they sent him to Vietnam. And because he was more like a clerk type person, he really wasn’t on the forefront. And that’s what he said. He spent most of his time in Vietnam in an office type setting or hiding under a bunker or something when they were shelling the base. But it changed our lives too, because when he came back, he wanted to live in New York, which is where his father, who was a musician was and where my husband, who had developed his own musical skills, saw the excitement and nightlife and so on. And my sister used to say, you know, he’s a nice person, but he’s just not the person for you. So he was a little more exciting and into, like you say, music and. And wanting to explore that kind of life. And I, of course, wanted to live in Shaker with a white picket fence and have the. So that was. He went to New York and I stayed here. But of course, who knew I was going to have a daughter? And so it was a kind of tricky time. That would have been ’68, ’67, ’68. But my girlfriend was working for United Airlines because I went to Idaho, which was a mistake too. My father said that you go on the base, a lot of things can happen, you know. So then I came home and that really, because my husband was always saying, because when I got mad or upset about something, I would always threaten to leave. And he told me, he says, you know, I have to be here, I can’t leave. He says, but I can’t be worried if I’m going to come home and you’re not going to be here, you know. So he kind of ultimatum, if you leave now, you know, this is it. So I did come home, but my girlfriend was working at United Airlines at the time, and she says United Airlines is hiring. And I went out there, interviewed and sure enough got a job in the reservation office in Rocky River. And I did that for about four years after my daughter was born. There again, if you had no seniority, you had to bid for your shifts. And I could only get four to midnight, 3:30, you know, to midnight, four to one. So after having my daughter, it was hard to get babysitters waking them up at 12 o’clock, you know, to pick up my daughter. And then of course, I could go back to nursing. But by that time I had worked in travel. So then I found a travel. I worked for travel agency downtown Cleveland. Then I heard of a travel agency, the Cleveland Clinic actually had it. They probably still do. Travel agency, because so many people, you know, come from Everywhere. And there again I said, you know, God was in the works. Because the church right next door to the clinic was Euclid Avenue Congregational Church. And they had just opened a daycare,
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:30:08] 79?
Charlene Higgenbotham [00:30:10] No. 9606 Euclid. And they were one of the few daycares that took children at two and a half. And so that was a real blessing to have her go there. And I could walk over at lunchtime and put her down for her nap. And it became then I was on the parent committee which met at 12 o’clock on Sunday. And then finally the administrator there asked if I would like to join the church because I was not at the church where I grew up anymore. And that has really been a journey and a blessing. I joined that church in 1974 and my daughter grew up in the church. And of course, 2010 was not a good year. The church was burned down. It was struck by lightning. And of course, the clinic has just built all around and on top of us anyway. And there have been some discussions in previous years about staying, leaving, renovating, working with the clinic, blah, blah, blah. And then as it turned out, lightning struck and that got us out of there. But a very traumatic time and still is, you know, for us to adjust and think about these things, but a good experience for me personally and for my daughter to have grown up. I always tried to, because after my daughter was born, that’s when I moved to Shaker, because I wanted to expose her to a. What you call a more a multicultural, multiracial setting. And Shaker at the time was known for their intentionality about housing, fair housing and their schools were outstanding. And that Cleveland public, by that time, really, in the 70s, were having some difficulties with the busing and everything else. So we moved to Shaker. And my daughter grew up in Shaker, went to Shaker schools. And not to say that they didn’t have their own difficulties, you had to be alert as a parent as to what was offered. It was said that some teachers, when they’re interviewed, they would prefer to teach all white students. So there were things too that you had to be aware of here and then the Ludlow Society, because then later I was able to buy. I won, actually, I won a city lot, but it was still in Shaker schools, that’s the Ashwood community there. But there was, you know, I had to go down to the landmark commission and show them my plans because Ludlow association still was very involved in the type of housing that was being built. I guess at some point someone had come in with one of those, you know, like, module houses that you just put up, and it really looked like a trailer. And they didn’t consider that to be, you know, the type of Shaker housing and so on. So then they, you know, got involved in that. And that was the first time I’d heard of the Ludlow Association. But it all worked out. Even though they told me what color shutters I had to, you know, you had to talk about the paint and the color because, you know, for the longest time you’d go up and down Van Aken and somebody had painted their house purple. And I always wondered how, you know, how did they ever get away with that after me, after having, you know, to designate what color my shutters were going to be? But everybody that passed the house thought it was so cute. And other people modeled that because it was like a beige aluminum siding and it had blue shutters and it was cute. So I did try to get my daughter, and it worked very well for Joy. And then our church, the United Church of Christ, is committed to multiracial, multicultural, even though it’s a newer denomination in the scheme of things, which they formed and came together right here in Cleveland in 1957. It gave her a different exposure. And when I visited with her just this past week, she had sat in or she was part of a committee to assess a student at graduate level for psychology. And this is the assessment that you do before they go on to their internship. And I was just sitting there listening to my daughter talk about all the weaknesses and things that were wrong with this student and the way she was just expressing, explaining and articulating and talking. And I was just looking at her in awe at this young woman who is a clinical psychologist herself, graduated from Wright State with her doctorate in psychology, has her own practice. And so that’s the kind of confidence and assurance and profession I didn’t. I didn’t come away with when I graduated high school. And while I think I was the best nurse that I could be, and I still have an empathy and a ministry for healthcare and people. But just looking at my daughter, the track that I put her on, so to speak, worked because after high school, she went on to Heidelberg College, which is a UCC-affiliated college, predominantly white college, small town in Tiffin, Ohio. We were driving down there and I thought, oh, my God, this is back in the country. She’s not going to want it. She’s not going to like this. The minute she got out of the car, somebody said, hi, Joy. And she said hi. And before she even got over to the main office where she was to register, several people had spoken to her. And that’s because when she went on youth retreats with the camp, with the church, they often their retreats were at Heidelberg or Defiance. And so she had made. And then she went to NYE National Youth Events. And she’d also been a delegate for Ohio Conference as well as our General Senate. So she knew people. And I was so pleased when that happened. And as I was driving back, trying not to cry, I knew that she would be okay, and I knew that small college settings would work very well for her. She didn’t participate very much at Shaker. She was in the chorus because it was just too huge. She thought she was going to go to Ohio State and go down where other kids were going. I said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, because she’d just be lost in the crowd. And she wasn’t assertive at that time. So she did very well at Heidelberg and then was accepted at Wright State for the doctoral program for psychology. So all that makes a difference. And as I look at my grandchildren now, of course, you know, I-
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:38:08] So did you stay in Shaker, then, after she had gone after college?
Charlene Higgenbotham [00:38:14] Well, actually, before she graduated from Shaker Heights High, we had built a little house over there on East 140th. And while that was Cleveland proper, it was Shaker schools. So I lived in that little house until after she graduated and went off college and went on to graduate school. And then I did move away. I bought another house in Cleveland. But again, they say you come full circle. So after I left, of course, my friends teased me about messing up their telephone books because I’m always moving. Because I actually went to work myself for the United Church of Christ when they moved their national headquarters from New York to Cleveland. ’89. And the first move took place in ’90 and then 91. And I helped with the transition. And then I became a full-time permanent employee. And so I worked there until actually I retired, kind of a forced retirement in 2002, but I moved back. Then I started working for East View United Church Christ, which is right down the street here at 156 and Chagrin Boulevard. So I thought to be closer to my job because the car was going to give out over the winter perhaps. Then I began to think about moving back to Shaker so I could be on the Van Aken line. And I did. I moved right here on Warrensville between Farnsleigh and South Woodland. And it’s interesting because while things have changed, certainly the corner and intersection here at Lee Road has changed quite a bit. When we were growing up, there was a big. Amy Joy’s right on the corner there. Very busy place, open very early. You know, you could always get coffee and a doughnut. A lot of days I wish for that, like this morning. So, you know, the strip mall and businesses that are in there now. And of course, where we’re sitting was Moreland School. It was school here. So, you know, the community’s changed, of course, from all those years ago, but there’s still a quality about Shaker that is like a standard, that represents excellence. And I think there, when Joy came back once when she was at Heidelberg to do, like, a test of some sort for her psychology class, she was amazed at how the racial composition of Shaker Heights High had changed. And of course, now if I happen to be on Lee Road, which I try to avoid when school is letting out, so you see all the kids walking up and down Lee Road, I’m surprised, too, that the racial mix is not what it was when she was in school in the ’80s. And that is kind of distressing because it either means that people have moved and the patterns of housing have changed and the commitment to remain an integrated community has diminished in some ways. People have moved further out to Beachwood, Pepper pike, white and Blacks. And so that you don’t. I don’t get the sense still of a racial mix. And yet when I visit Plymouth United Church of Christ right there off of Coventry, and drive through those beautiful streets and muse about who lives in the houses, it is- It’s a mixed memory because years ago you would never see- And I think it was against the ordinance to put a “For Sale” sign on the lawn. And now I texted my daughter once and told her I just counted nine “For Sale” signs on this one street. And if you multiply that by all the streets, I went up and down. It’s very sad. So I have a memory, you know, from what, 20, 30 years ago of Shaker. And so to be back now and see the difference, and especially, like you say, in the commercial areas, I was very excited when they put up this, like, think innovative business thing in that former car car dealership. But I remember when that mall was built, and now, you know, there are still several empty stores and especially up on Van Aken. I walk up there sometimes to Panera and Walgreens, and, boy, there are a lot of empty storefronts in there. And yet when I get the newsletter by email from Shaker and the mayor is giving updates on what’s happening and what’s going on. And Memorial Day, they still had the Memorial Day parade. And the apartment is right across from Thornton Park. And in my walk, I came back the opposite way and walked through Thornton. And I had memories of Joy working one summer at the tennis court. The pool was always an outstanding benefit and now they’ve enhanced it by putting other playground and even a skateboard thing. So when I hear the kids next door in the apartment next door playing out in the parking lot, I’m thinking, and why don’t they just walk across the street and play over there? So it’s kind of a mixed feelings that I have as I drive around because I know things have changed and yet I still have that sense of excellence for the community and its resolve to be unique in the way that it always has been. And of course, the history, the program that we heard a couple weeks ago about the Ludlow association and their commitment.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [0045:09] With Shelley.
Charlene Higgenbotham [00:45:11] Yes.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:45:15] What other type of retail shops were there? I always hear about not only Shaker Square, but more so like Scruff street or high-end clothes and stuff.
Charlene Higgenbotham [00:45:26] There were more fashion clothes, just a variety. It wasn’t so much fast food or fast food. If there was the restaurant, which the one next to Al Nola shoe store has been there forever. And so the restaurant too, mostly Italian cuisine. So there were more restaurants. It wasn’t this quickie lottery beverage. Of course, there was always a Shaker beverage too. So that’s the difference. They were really more shops. Some probably family owned. Amy Joy’s of course, was chain, but that’s the difference. Not one beauty shop. And that’s why I said, you know, I hope when, you know, these storefronts become available, they don’t just fill them up with beauty shops and barber shops, which again, you know, the owners need to, you know, pay, have somebody paying rent. But that’s the difference. They were really clothing stores or hardware stores. Heinen’s, on the corner of Avalon, I believe there was a drugstore for many years. Then further up the street there was a grocery store too. Right at the corner of the next intersection, Lynnfield, it might be, but where the dialysis center is now. I remember pulling in the parking lot and there was a drugstore. I mean, there was a. Maybe that was Heinen’s, I’m not sure, but it was a grocery store. Fresh produce. Everybody knew you. Same as the experience that I had when I went down South. Because if you went in there long enough, people knew you and you knew the people that worked there and the owners. So that type of community. And yet you knew that you were living in a community that was pretty. People of means lived here, of course, to own some of these homes, and that they were the business people of the community or folk that had the jobs and presence. And I remember picking up Joy once, and I was sitting, I said, boy, look at all these cars, these expensive cars. I said, gee, the parents. She said, oh, those are the students cars. I said, are you kidding me? She says, no. And I remember she wanted a pair of jeans. Who was that? Von somebody, the designer. Diane Von Fosterberg, or somebody like that. I told her, I said, the only way. I said, the only way you’ll get those jeans is if your name is on the backside of it. And she kind of looked. I said, I said, what? My father said, you know, they said, you never told your father, quote, your parents. I said, you are here to get an education, not for style and fashion. I said, so no, you will not die in Van Foster. I said, you will. Because they were like $27. I said, you will not be wearing those jeans. [crosstalk] Yeah, but you see, again, she was exposed to children that, you know, were wearing fashion and driving Mercedes-Benz and they were students. And so she was- But I was clear that we’re not here to compete, you know. And of course, now jeans of any kind are fashionable, so it doesn’t matter about the label. And that I will know when you graduate that you can read, because that was the headline in the Plain Dealer once children are graduating and they can’t read, you’re thinking, how in the world is that happening? Unfortunately, that’s still the headline. They’re holding the third graders back. They’re going to now if they can’t matriculate and read. And so, you know, when I visit and I ask, you know, a trip to the library, you know, my grandson, of course, everything is, you know, they’re on the computers, they’re on the iPads, they’re on the Xbox. But there’s something. So I was glad to see that part of the things they’re supposed to do while I was there. She has a chalkboard or, you know, one of those wipe offs. And the one grandson was reading read next chapter of Hunger Games. And the other son was reading something about vampires. Jacob turned 12 in May. And Daniel, I can’t believe, because I asked her, is his voice changing? Daniel is 14. Is he 14? Or he’ll be 14 in July 27th. [crosstalk] But yes, he was. And. But his whole thing is Xbox. It’s the, I turned that thing off because, you know, it’s too much. So reading is essential. And I noticed when I read my younger grandson’s evaluation, the teacher said he needs to show his work so I can see, you know, you want to know the thought processes of how he arrived at the problem otherwise, right? He could have used the calculator, my son in law could have helped him. You know, the teacher can’t see your work. And I found it interesting when my daughter was talking about the young lady that she was assessing, she was trying to solicit the same kind of information from her, like. And so she said, I kept trying to prompt her to tell me how, you know, she made the choice to administer this particular test. So, and so later when she had the conference with the, her boss and you know, the manager, you know, she said, you know, it is about being able to realize the thought processes. So I was chuckling at the similarities. But reading is essential. And they live in what you might call a gated community too. And certainly in Westchester, Ohio. My grandsons are probably the only Black students in their class. And because they’re so fair, the kids see how kids are. The kids didn’t know they weren’t white. And finally they came home one day and one asked them, she says, mom, are we Black? So I mean, that tells you something right there. And then of course, my daughter said, oh, am I doing my children a disservice? You know, because again, they’re not getting the same exposure. So it’s really weird. But again, kids don’t care. I mean, if you don’t make- I mean, nobody makes a difference about being different. And we have more in common than we are different. I mean, one little kid, he rings the doorbell all the time, can they come out and play? Can they come to this swimming pool? You know, kids will just be kids. And so they pick up these attitudes. From parents and society and what’s said, you know, but in that particular community. So when she took them to Atlanta to visit her best girlfriend down there, one of her students, she graduated, one of her women she graduated with, they were packing the car and the neighbor next door said, oh, you’re getting ready to hit the road. So my daughter said, afterwards, my oldest grandson turned to her. He says, it’s just so nice to be around Black people. He says, I just feel Blacker being here. I can’t believe he said that. But there again, you don’t know what your kids are feeling when they are in A community. And then they’re not really thinking about it. But then when they become older and they become conscious because, you know, they were doing like, you know, the get down motions and, you know, all these gestures. I said, where are they getting that from? She said the television. Because certainly there’s nobody around that’s mimicking them and wearing the hoodies. And, you know, it’s funny because when I visit, I’m there for about a day or two and then I begin to realize too, I don’t see anybody around here looks like me, you know. And of course we make a joke. Because somebody was coming out of UDF the other day and I said, joy, color people, color people, you know, and we laugh. Same like when we went to Wright State for her interview and I sat in the car and when she came out, I said, Joy saw so many colored people because at Heidelberg, you know, you wouldn’t see anybody. So. But it is interesting because, like you say, the environment we’re in and this evening at church, we’re going to be talking about a book, how to become a multiracial, how to become a multicultural church. Because we’re losing- As the- When I went to Euclid Avenue is predominantly white. But now those. And those members say were in their 40s. Well, now, 40 years later, see, the congregation has aged, people have moved or, you know, died. And the influx of people that are joining now are African American. And so we want to talk about how we can be intentionally remain multicultural. It’s going to be hard to be multiracial. And we’re looking, you know, at communities and where we might move our new church. And of course, location, location, location is very important in that community, and we’re committed to urban ministry. So we’re gonna have to be very intentional about how we maintain that. So.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:55:53] Mm hmm. Well, I think I am at time, but any final thoughts?
Charlene Higgenbotham [00:56:02] Well, I think this was a wonderful opportunity. I probably am going to be asking and interested in, you know, how you’re going to use this information and who might be listening and just in what context it can be used. I’m actually going Friday to a meeting of the Black Storytellers Association because I would like to develop a storytelling ministry. I like hearing stories. I listen to the radio still on Sunday afternoons. There’s a guy from Canada that comes on at 3 o’clock and I sit in my car sometimes just to hear the end of the story. And of course, my mother told us stories, you know, bedtime stories. And my daughter took me to see Wicked as a part of my birthday celebration. Sunday live theater you know, now, of course, that was a musical, but there was a story there and the way that they told it. So I think projects like this, where people can sit and listen to other people’s stories, is so interesting, entertaining, informative, and can be used, you know, for a learning tool. We started now, gone through the ’50s, right up to 2012, in my stories.
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