Abstract
In this 2012 interview, Shelley Stokes-Hammond speaks about growing up in the city of Cleveland and then transitioning to the ever growing diverse community of Ludlow. She speaks about her lack of knowledge of racial aggression as a child, and the peaceful community she was raised in. She briefly discusses the attitude and tensions in the early days of the Ludlow integration, and the African-American response to the integrated housing plan put forth by the Ludlow Community Association. The Van Sweringen effect on racism and segregation in Shaker is described, specific memories like the Martin Luther King assassination, her uncle Carl Stokes, and her father are also remembered. Though the original interview was over sixty minutes long, a large chunk of it was lost due to technical difficulties.
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Interviewee
Stokes-Hammond, Shelley (Interviewee)
Interviewer
Halligan-Taylor, Gabriella (interviewer)
Project
Shaker Heights Centennial
Date
6-6-2012
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
33 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Shelley Stokes-Hammond interview, 06 June 2012" (2012). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 915008.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/509
Transcript
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:00:01] Okay, so tell me a little bit about yourself. Where did you grow up? Where did you go to school?
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:00:07] Well, started out, I was born in Cleveland, and I started Cleveland public schools. I went to, I think, a school. The first school I may have gone to was called Robert Fuller. And then I went to, I think to a school called Columbia Miles Standish. And then eventually we left the Mount Pleasant area of Cleveland and moved into the Ludlow community of Shaker Heights.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:00:36] When did you move to Ludlow?
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:00:38] We moved here when I was in the fifth grade and in between the middle of the year. So in the middle of fifth grade, around 1960 or 1961, I think it may have been ’61.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:00:57] Was it hard going in the middle of the year?
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:01:01] The only thing is that the Cleveland system had A and B. So if you were born in the winter, like I was, I was born in November, and then I started school in January. But the Shaker school system, everybody started in September. So in a way, it felt as though I was repeating part of it. I was a little behind or something like that. And so I felt a little. I should have been going, finishing up the last semester of fifth grade and going on to sixth grade by that January instead, with Shaker, I was still in the fifth grade, but there were other students there in the same boat. So I soon made sure I knew who they were so I wouldn’t feel as bad.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:01:47] What kind of different experiences did you have going from Cleveland to Shaker?
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:01:51] Well, in Cleveland, I think all of my teachers were African American. And probably 90 something percent of the students, maybe 99% even of students were Black. But I still remember dedicated teachers and excellent teachers and kids who cared about learning. And then when I moved to Shaker, I didn’t have any African American teachers, but I had a mixture of the students were probably 50% Black, 50% White.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:02:30] Was it hard, like, you know, fifth grade, you know, kind of starting preteen years? Was it hard to kind of all of a sudden being like this very kind of more diverse community?
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:02:42] Actually, I didn’t even think about it. I just remember some of the Black girls in my Cleveland community saying, wow, you’re moving to Shaker Heights. They have really good schools. And my parents hadn’t even explained that to us at that point, even though that was their motive for moving. So I just remembered listening to them say that. And then when we moved there, I didn’t really think about the racial part at all. I’m just saying that now that I’m older and looking back on It. But at the time, I just thought about new school, and I was more concerned about not being able to go on to sixth grade in January. And if that meant some sort of negative quality to me emotionally. And the other thing is that I kept hearing that a C in Shaker was like an A in Cleveland. You kept hearing things like that about the quality of the education. So I was hearing these things, but I didn’t know quite what they meant. I was just. I just wanted to do very well.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:03:42] Were you kind of isolated a little bit from kind of the civil rights conflicts going on in the rest of the country?
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:03:52] I don’t think I really understood what was going on with civil rights, even though my father was a civil rights attorney and I knew he was doing something. But I don’t think I really understood what it was all about. I know in junior high school, the only time he ever excused us for missing school was to attend a freedom school. And we learned how to sing some of the songs of the civil rights movement. And we were taught some things. But it was still kind of a distant understanding.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:04:25] Right. Kind of a blessing? A little bit.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:04:27] A little bit. I just don’t think our family. My grandmother, who had come up from the south, never talked about what her experience was. And my father was an attorney, and we lived in this community where everybody was working towards being happy together. And I didn’t really understand something more about. Understand something else might be happening. So I got to high school, and black kids started sitting at their own table, at a table with all blacks for lunch. And I had been growing up with the mixture for overnights and everything. And then all of a sudden, once you got to the dating age, something else started happening. I didn’t even understand it was race even that much, even in high school. I don’t think I started putting more of that together until I got to college.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:05:21] Really?
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:05:21] Yeah.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:05:22] Because I was listening to some recordings of, you know, the Ludlow integration, and a lot of people said the same thing, really, when they got to high school, it was just a completely different experience.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:05:37] So, yeah, it is.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:05:40] With the Ludlow integration, looking back on it, was there any sort of tension or was it just kind of very peaceful and organized?
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:05:54] I think that whatever tension there was must have been with the adults. And maybe a lot had been done before we got there. I think the real tension, based on my research, happened in the 1950s with the first black families that moved in there. And then all the work that was going on around me, for instance, I remember going to their first major fundraiser, which was seeing My Fair lady at the Colony Theater. It was my birthday, and so I was just happy and my nice little community. And looking back on it, it was this interracial community. But at the time, I just remember being happy and I took everything in. But I was just thinking my community. But I did not know until doing this research that that was a way of raising money to help finance loans for whites who wanted to move into the area to make sure it stayed racially balanced. I didn’t know that. I just knew we were all going to go see My Fair Lady. My community is all going to do this together. It just felt good.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:06:56] That must have been great. Just kind of, because looking, I just took a Maryland history. So, you know, civil rights is a big chapter. And you always hear the bad stories about Little Rock, you know, Ole Miss. And it’s nice to hear something about Ludlow so close to home that was so very instrumental, I think, in Cleveland.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:07:17] Absolutely. Well, in fact, that was what I talked about in my presentation and my thesis was I compared Little Rock to Ludlow because the Ludlow Community Association was founded in 1957, which is the same year that President Eisenhower had to desegregate the use troops to desegregate the public schools there to follow Brown versus Ford. And there were people who suffered. A garage was bombed, home of the John and Dorothy Pegg. There were people who only had blacks as maids. And they liked Ludlow. They thought it was a nice neighborhood. They really liked it. And they wanted their kids to have the school and they didn’t want to move out. And they had to wrestle with their own emotions and their experiences and make a decision. So it was very similar. And then once they decided they wanted to stay, they had to deal with every. All of the traditional forces working against them. Real estate agents no longer willing to show white people homes, banks. Considering a move of a White person, there is a risk and just not giving them any loans. And they had to deal with their peers. Because I know Irwin Barnett, one of the founders, talked about how he was taking the subway home from downtown back to Shaker. And he heard. And these other, you know, some white guy was talking about, you know, his miserable, miserable life. And then he said, oh, well, at least I don’t live over in that Ludlow neighborhood where all those Black people are moving. And, you know, the first, you know, he had to get to point where he was able to say, you know what? I live over there and I like it. But initially he was, like, embarrassed and afraid to know how to handle it. So I think there are just as many important experiences that racism is everywhere and it just shows its way in different dimensions. And we have to get more literature out there to show we’re not just talking about the marches down the South. There were marches in Cleveland. You know, we’re not just talking. Stuart Wallace was at the program yesterday. He said his life was threatened twice. You know, if something hadn’t happened, he would have been killed. He was a White person who helped with desegregating and housing. So we need to know that the problem was just as devastating and took just as much of a battle in a different form. In the North as well as the South, as well as the South, it was everywhere.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:10:08] And that’s something that I think people, especially, you know, students, young people my age.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:10:14] Oh, I understand. I don’t know.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:10:15] Sure.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:10:15] A lot of people don’t know. You’re not alone. The history books don’t present it that way. No, it’s a new thing where the light is coming on. Exactly. Right.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:10:29] Yeah. I mean, that’s. That’s something I found interesting, which is all the movements, like the things happening in the North, you know, were just as, you know, maybe. Maybe not as violent. Maybe.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:10:42] Yeah, there are differences.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:10:44] But just as, you know, intense.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:10:47] Exactly.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:10:48] The intense level is the same.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:10:50] Yeah. I read A quote by Dr. Martin Luther King when he said that the problem with race in America wasn’t a sectional problem, it’s a national problem. And that injustice. And that’s where that, quote, injustice anywhere is the threat to justice everywhere. He said. Those two together.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:11:11] I love Dr. King.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:11:12] Yeah.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:11:15] People don’t know about anything other than I Had a Dream Speech.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:11:17] And that’s another example.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:11:20] Have you ever read Letters to Birmingham Jail?
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:11:23] Really Awesome.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:11::24] It’s one of my favorites.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:11:25] Mine too.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:11::25] I read it my English class last year, actually.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:11:28] Okay. It’s just very- Yeah, you can read that over and over again and keep getting a lot out of it.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:11:35] Yeah, especially- I loved his bit, just kind of calling out the church figureheads, you know.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:11:40] That was beautifully done. Absolutely. Isn’t that the truth?
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:11:47] Timeless.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:11:48] Yeah, it is.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:11:51] So I found something when I was doing some kind of pre research. Didn’t have enough time.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:11:57] I understand. Totally understand. I’m amazed that you got this together because-
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:12:01] Yeah, well, it was so thankful that I didn’t have anything really scheduled this week.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:12:05] I’m glad too.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:12:08] So with the development plan, you know, back in the ’50s, I heard that the kind of the showing of houses to potential light buyers to kind of, you know, counter attack, I guess, the real estate agencies. I read somewhere that that had a conflict with naacp.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:12:27] Well, I don’t know about the NAACP, but I know that African Americans at first were upset because their history, you know, when you think about the- If you go all the way back and you say, well, gee, if you’re thinking about the American dream of having a home in a nice neighborhood with good public schools, well, if you start with the African American story, where most were taken from their homelands in Africa, and then they come enforced into these other terrible quarters, either working in somebody’s better home or living in a shack or. And then eventually there’s, you know, there’s slavery, There’s- I mean, there’s freedom, but for most people, there’s, like, sharecropping and many people still working and nicer White homes. And when you look at all of that, then. I’m sorry, I forgot what the original question was.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:13:20:] The conflict with the NAACP.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:13:23] Okay, so when you finally get a chance, you know, through education, the GI Bill or whatever, and you’re more affluent and you now can afford a home in a nice place where your children might get a great education, and then people say, I’m sorry, there are so many Blacks in here that we want to keep it stable, so you can’t move in here. We’re just letting White people move in here. Now. That was a very tough pill to swallow. And the problem was, is that Ludlow was just so unique. We had that going on in all the other places of Shaker and all the other communities of other suburbs. We’d be okay, but it was the only place where they decided, let’s make this work. Some others followed their example, but it was the first and most successful model. And so all the Blacks were like, oh, there’s a place where we might be able to reach that dream. And to be told no. Some people wanted to fight against that, but eventually most understood that it wasn’t that you were being blocked from Ludlow. Instead, the problems. It’s the only place, and we need to open it up. And eventually, that’s what happened. Some of the people in Ludlow worked with different organizations. That opened up some opportunities in Lomond and Sussex. And I don’t know if any of them were as happy as the way things worked in Ludlow, but that’s what they realized they had to do.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:14:57] With- I don’t know if I am pronouncing their name right, but did the Van Sweringens-
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:15:05] I think it’s- I think that’s correct.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:15:08] Do they have any, like, kind of effect on the integration with Shaker Heights?
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:15:12] Huge. What’s really interesting is that I think they were geniuses when it comes to architectural vision and landscaping vision. You know, they had this idea. They looked at this area after it was left by the Shakers and saw the potential for a suburb. And they had this vision of this special transportation system that was different from a New York subway or a Boston subway. They imagined something that looked more residential with the median strip and the Rapid there. And so that then they had this vision for the downtown area of the Terminal Tower. So it was just brilliant. But also they had their vision meant only white Anglo Saxon Protestants. And they shaped a lot of their literature to sort of convey that. And there were blacks in this community from the beginning as maids. And everybody who saw them on the rapid transit or walking neighborhood knew they were here as domestic workers. But the idea of being a homeowner. So in 1925, the first Black family - known Black family, because Blacks who looked White were living here, apparently, and passing - but the first known Black person was a guy named Dr. Bailey. And he moved here in 1925. And they set fire, I think, to his garage and threw rocks at the house. The city provided police protection, but because the chauffeur shot a gun to deal with some of the ruffians, then the city started frisking the police, started frisking the visitors to their home. So it was not a very good situation. Then the Van Sweringens- Well, 400 residents of Shaker Heights met at the high school, which at that time was Woodbury. And the outcome was the special report and a policy of compatible neighbors and not having undesirables and really urging people to go back and sign, like a new extension or clause. I think it was Rule Number Five. And they basically that either the Van Sweringens would agree to a person who wanted to purchase a home here or else all the neighbors - like 20, I think, 20 or 21 people - had to sign for somebody to move in.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:17:48] So virtually before 1956, there was no way-
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:17:51] Exactly. Exactly. And so the change came in 1948 with the Supreme Court case of Shelley v. Kraemer. And then blacks were more in a better position than GI Bill. More education as well as people just striving for home and better education for their kids. And so they were already living on the edges of this neighborhood in Mount Pleasant. And so, yeah, they pushed forward. And then the Pegg incident in 1956.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:18:27] Do you think the children had a huge effect on the integration in Ludlow and in Shaker?
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:18:36] I think so. I think their parents and I think the kids just. I think they did what children do. I don’t think they think about it unless somebody has already influenced them. Another way. But growing up, I don’t really remember. I think I only remember one hostile. You know, one or two hostile persons at the high school that may have been due to race, but all along the way, I think the kids were just saw us as each other. Yeah. And one of my most happiest memories is when Martin Luther King was assassinated. They held a memorial service for Dr. King at the old Stone Church downtown. And I knew my dad was going to go because that morning he was getting all set, and I said, can I go? And he said, only if the school gives you permission. So I found out I had to go to the head of disciplinary action. And I was afraid to go to him, but I mustered up my courage, went down there. It was a long line and so creeping up little by little. And finally I get kind of close, and the guy says, okay, everybody in this line who wants to go to the King Memorial, you have permission to go. And I couldn’t believe it. And so, you know, I don’t even remember being with my closest friends. I just remember going. And masses of kids from Shaker High School, all races, walking down to the rapid transit spot, filling up the cars, going downtown and going into the. And my father, you know, I’m kind of connecting, passing through this little passageway at the church. And he looks up and he goes, she must have gotten permission. And I’m thinking, I hope he knows I got permission. And he just said, hello, Shelley. I said, hello, dad. But it was the neatest thing. And then afterwards, we all left and somebody said, hey, look, there’s Robert and Ethel Kennedy. He was in town and he was- They were waving. I think they were staying at the Sheraton by the Higbee Building, and they waved at all of us. And that was a little uplifting after leaving the sadness of the- Yeah, the memorial service. Yeah, that was. I thought I was. That was a happy day at Shaker. Yeah, sad and happy.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:21:18] Yeah, sad and happy. I was.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor I hope that didn’t cut out too much. I don’t think it did.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:21:27] I’m sure it’ll all work out probably.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:21:29] Maybe just the last couple minutes there. So do you think the integration in Shaker Heights has paid off? You know, going from starting out in the 1950s, going through currently? Do you think it’s.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:21:46] I definitely think so. Well, I don’t know. One thing that my father said to me is that the people who worked on this integration project years ago, they worked really hard. And I think that the only way it can remain successful is to continue working really hard. I think, unfortunately, There is just so much. It’s so. It’s permeated. Racism has permeated in our history, is so interwoven in so many dimensions that we’re just kind of at risk of not overcoming. It’s almost like a temptation of not giving up sodas or, you know, fast food. I think it’s another ingredient in our culture that is a constant battle. I really, really do. I think that we’ve made a lot of giant steps, so we’re not where we were as a whole, but I think we’ve got pockets and a tendency to, unfortunately, dip back in that bag a little more than we’d like to.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:22:57] Yeah.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:22:59] I think we have to be ever vigilant. As Frederick Douglass said, it takes that constant vigilance.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:23:07] But, I mean, my grandma still is very stuck in that kind of mindset from the ’50s, ’60s, where she’s still there. And I imagine, you know, with the parents. Parents are probably still there maybe, you know, when they’re teaching their kids.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:23:25] Exactly.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:23:26] How do you get over?
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:23:29] Exactly. I think it made a difference, though. I think that, you know, I haven’t been here in a long time. I’ve seen a few videos of issues that are going on here, and it’s a little. I see some things that seem a little bit different, and I sort of feel like whatever the dynamics were of the people that were here, there’s some different dynamics perhaps now. And it’s not. Just because people are black and white doesn’t mean they’re the same people. There’s a lot of. There are a lot of other factors going into play, including our nation as a whole and other scenarios. So I do think that what they did is still an awesome model.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:24:19] Yeah.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:24:19] And if people look at it and study it, I do believe it can be instructive and it can help them be more successful. I really believe that. I think so, too.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:24:30] I mean, I was driving through and it’s such a nice neighborhood.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:24:33] Yeah.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:24:33] You know.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:24:37] And you do see it happening in other places in the country. You know, just. It’s just people. I think people are, you know, get along better than they would have if it hadn’t been for things like this.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:24:48] Right. I think an issue, too, is I feel like people don’t want to say that America’s racist.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:24:54] No, nobody wants to.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:24:57] You know, I think that’s a problem too, because people are like, we’re not racist. We don’t have to worry about it.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:25:02] Exactly. Nobody wants to think we’re still. And they don’t want to think slavery is still with us. They don’t want to think racism, but it’s all there, unfortunately. It’s just part of our story. And we’re human. Exactly, exactly.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:25:29] So you think race relations are pretty stable nowadays in Shaker?
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:25:37] Well, I think that they are stable, but it sounds like they’ve got some things going on in the schools. You know, by the time kids are getting to high school, it sounds like they’re still dealing with some problems with disparities in Black and White achievement. I think that you still have. It sounds like there’s still Black kids that are achieving very well, but it sounds like they’ve still got some other despaired gaps that are a problem and they have to wrestle with.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:26:09] I mean, I think. I think education is the place to start, though.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:26:12] I do, too. I think so. Yeah. I don’t know what to say because I’m not as close to what’s going on today. I just know more about the historical piece.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:26:29] Yeah. I mean, I think if America as a whole would just invest in education, we’d see a huge change.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:26:35] I agree.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:26:36] You know, there’s still all that time, but nobody listens.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:26:39] Yeah, I know. Somebody will, though. Yeah. There are different ways of getting people’s attention.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:26:47] I mean, I think that’s- I’m surprised that that’s not a key issue in the presidential debate right now.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:26:53] I know. Exact- I agree. I agree.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:26:57] I want to talk about Romney because he-
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:26:59] Not very happy.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:27:01] I don’t know how you’re voting.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:27:03] Well, I’m not going to see his commercials. I haven’t seen hardly any commercials yet in Maryland. They haven’t really- I think it’s probably so predominantly Democratic in Maryland, but I know Ohio is a battleground state, so I bet you are. I haven’t seen them yet.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:27:20] It’s insane because I think Cleveland has a pretty good mixture, but I think people, you know, my age and, you know, I think is a working-class state. I think most people are Democratic. But I just went to Columbus and it was insane, the amount of very conservative- I went down there and I was like, almost like going back into like antebellum. I was like-
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:27:44] Oh, I know.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:27:47] Just overhearing people.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:27:49] I know it must have been something just in Columbus. And you think of that as a more, you know, informed community.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:27:57] Yeah. I mean, I think, I never thought Ohio could be, you know-
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:28:01] Yeah, Ohio can be pretty conservative.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:28:03] I’m just realizing that now.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:28:05] Yeah, I understand. I know.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:28:12] I think I got a lot of good material. Just one really quick last question.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:28:17] Absolutely.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:28:18] A fun one. What’s your, like, favorite historical location or favorite event in the Greater Cleveland area?
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:28:28] Greater Cleveland area?
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:28:30] You can name a couple.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:28:33] Oh, thank you. Well, I think that memorial service for King as a high school student was just pretty profound for me because my uncle was mayor and just seeing him down on the dais with a handkerchief. He was my uncle and he was crying. He was crying. And so I was very touched to see him down there. Here he’s supposed to be the mayor of the city, but he’s having to use a handkerchief to catch his tears. But it was so great to be with my classmates like that. And then to see Robert Kennedy, I think that was one of my most significant. I think that campaigning for my uncle and my father, who was a member of Congress
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:29:27] I knew that.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:29:28] Okay. Well, I think that, you know, classmates of mine took the rapid transit down to the Board of Elections to help register voters, and they were at fundraisers. That was a nice experience. And the people in the community, Black and White, parents and kids were part of that. Other than that, I think I remember election night before he got elected, just being downtown in Cleveland. And that’s why I say my father took us down just for a minute to see something going on. And he said, okay, time to go home, you know, for bed. And we saw my uncle with his campaign manager. And we’re like, uncle Carl, Carl. And he didn’t hear us. And my father had to say, brother, that was what he. And he’s like, he said, the kids want to say goodnight to you. I have that memory. And I guess the My Fair lady. And I think my sixth grade graduation because I did some songs with my next door neighbor, Ellen Fonaroff and Amy Cronheim and Pam Taylor. I think all of them may have been Jewish, but we were in our back then. You know, we wore pretty dresses and things for graduation. And we sang I Enjoy Being a Girl. These are all my favorite songs. And they were like doing what I wanted us to do. And I have that picture still. And I sent it to them really, a couple years ago. We were all remembering that experience. And I remember other parents of Ludlow being excited about just everything. All of us together at the graduation ceremony. Just. Those are nice, nice memories. It was. Those things were very nice.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:31:25] With your Uncle Carl, with the whole environmental revolution in Cleveland. Did you know anything about that growing up?
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:31:34] The environmental revolution?
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:31:35] Yeah, with the Clean Water Act. And he was very interested in that.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:31:39] I didn’t really realize all those things he was doing, but he was very progressive and a visionary. He had a real sense of the future and he had a real sense of the pulse of things so I respected him for that I thought that was- He was amazing as far as that’s concerned.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:32:00] Actually, the Clean Water Act-
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:32:02] Yeah, and it was hard what he had to cope with, [crosstalk] but I went on the west side once with him. For some reason he took me. And then I actually have a newspaper article - it was on the cover of I think the New York Times or something - talking about where he- People identified with him because he talked about the history of Irish people and other ethnic groups, not just- [crosstalk] Exactly, not just Black, and then he was able to realize to say we share more than you realize and how they made certain decisions and choices that got them beyond ethnic choices that were best politically, and that was how he got some people there to actually believe in him and vote for him. Yeah.
Gabriela Halligan-Taylor [00:32:50] Yeah, that’s great, that’s great, yeah.
Shelley Stokes-Hammond [00:32:58] Okay, you’re very patient. Wonderful talking with you.
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