Abstract
Betty Meyers is a member of the Baptist Church in Shaker Heights. In this interview she relates the history of the church, the interactions that the leaders had with the Van Sweringen brothers along with detailing some of the architectural aspects of the edifice.
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Interviewee
Meyers, Betty (Interviewee)
Interviewer
Halligan-Taylor, Gabriella (interviewer)
Project
Shaker Heights Centennial
Date
7-30-2012
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
26 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Betty Meyers Interview, 30 July 2012" (2012). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 915031.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/517
Transcript
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:00:00] I’m going to go ahead and start recording now. You go ahead and say your name and today’s date.
Betty Meyers [00:00:05] What is today’s date? Okay, this is Betty Meyers, July 30, 2012.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:00:15] And I’m just going to start with questions that I gave you. And just before this building was actually built, was there a group that kind of founded the First Baptist Church?
Betty Meyers [00:00:30] Yes. If you look at the cornerstone or. Yes, the cornerstone, you would see that year, 1833. It was 1833 when this was first organized by 17 people. They built. Well, they first attended what was called the Academy. They rented that downtown. And then they built their first church, which was on the corner of Public Square behind where Terminal Tower is now. Then eventually there were about- Should we just start again?
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:01:11] Oh, no, you can go ahead and continue.
Betty Meyers [00:01:14] Okay. The first church was organized with 17 people. There were two Blacks, Black Americans, and most of the people were from New England. They were not wealthy at all. And eventually the church grew and they needed to build a building. So they built the building, as I said, behind Terminal Tower. And then they outgrew that. And they looked farther east and eventually built a building at the corner of Ninth street and Euclid Avenue. And that was about 1855. And then they outgrew that one and eventually built another building that was where now Prospect crosses to join Carnegie. And in fact, the city bought the land from them in order to do that. And there was a huge complex there. And during this time, the church kept growing, and they sent out mission groups to different places. They sent a mission group and started a church on the west side. And eventually there were enough black Americans that they started the Shiloh Baptist Church. And from there, the Shiloh Baptist Church started other mission churches. Eventually they came to the Heights and met in Coventry elementary school. And about 1924, ’25, when there was a movement east, they decided that they wanted to look for land in this area. So the group down at 46th Street and Euclid joined with the group at Coventry School and started meeting together to make plans for another building.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:03:16] And was it always Baptist from the start?
Betty Meyers [00:03:19] Yes. Yes, yes. In fact, what was interesting was the first people that were baptized. This church has baptism by immersion. And the first people that were baptized there were four adults, and they were baptized in Lake Erie in January. They broke the ice to baptize them. And I can’t imagine going into that freezing water to be baptized, but that happened.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:03:47] Wow. And those were the first people I got baptized.
Betty Meyers [00:03:49] Those were. Yes, the first.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:03:51] Wow. So my last question was, where did this for worship? But he answered all those questions. All the different buildings, how did they worship? I guess is my question, as far as did they have set, you know, worship times or did they kind of get together when everybody could come?
Betty Meyers [00:04:16] Well, no, usually churches like this will set a worship time. And they also had Sunday school because they felt it was important to train the children. So they had what we would consider today a traditional worship service where they had, you know, scripture and prayer and hymn singing. And they eventually had a nice organ downtown, they had a good music program. And of course they would always have a sermon that’s a part of any Protestant service.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:04:51] And as far as kind of just the congregation, obviously it was growing since they had to move so much. How popular was it in 1833 compared to how popular is it right now?
Betty Meyers [00:05:06] Well, in 1833, that was. The people that founded it were just part of the first settlers that moved from New England. So there were very few people. There were only 17. And the church there grew rapidly. And that’s why they kept building new churches, because their church outgrew them. And then, of course, when they wanted to come farther east, because the population was coming east, then they started, as I said, looking for land here. And they finally found this property, but it belonged to the Van Sweringens.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:05:46] And this is bringing to the next set of questions here. So what year was it when they wanted to move east again?
Betty Meyers [00:05:57] Well, the church here was begun in 1929. And prior to that, there was a group that had started, as I said, in Cleveland Heights. That was in 1919.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:06:12] And so what did the- So the Vans own this land?
Betty Meyers [00:06:17] Yes.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:06:17] So how did they influence kind of the church? I’m assuming it’s a huge influence, but could you kind of tell that story?
Betty Meyers [00:06:26] Well, first of all, the church had $75,000 that they were willing to spend on property. So they went to the Van Sweringens and said, we have this much money. How much of this property will you sell us for that much money? And they thought it over. They discussed some of the ideas about what the people had concerning a church. So they decided, okay, we’ll let them have the whole lot. I think it was eight acres. And then they also said that we want to have some say in the architecture. So they didn’t want just any kind of a building going up on this property. They were very pleased that it was going to be a church and they wanted something significant. And of course they got something very significant. And they were so pleased that they canceled the last payment. So the church didn’t pay. The final payment, I think, was a third of what the price was.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:07:46] And what made the Vans kind of let this property go. Was there any reason or did they just decide to be nice, I guess?
Betty Meyers [00:07:55] Well, I think they. As, as I said, I think they wanted something significant here because they wanted to build a very nice community like we have in Shaker Heights. And so they didn’t want just any kind of a building here. And as long as they were able to discuss the type of building and the project with the church officials or committee, I mean, they were satisfied with the project.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:08:29] And how much was 75 grand in the 1920s in today’s-
Betty Meyers [00:08:35] That I don’t know. To me, $75,000 at that point in time. To me, it sounds expensive for them, but I have no idea.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:08:49] As far as the architecture, what were some of the elements of the building that the Vans wanted or pushed?
Betty Meyers [00:08:57] Well, I don’t know that they really pushed anything. The building committee did it. And I don’t know really how many times they met with them. I mean, there’s nothing in the history books that I’m aware that that’s recorded. That’s recorded.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:09:14] And what are some of the buildings kind of more, I guess, striking features?
Betty Meyers [00:09:22] Okay. Well, first of all, it is a neo-Gothic structure for a Baptist church. This is very unusual. You don’t find these kind of buildings in Baptist churches. It is English Gothic, which means that if you go into sanctuary, you see the long windows on the side, the long stained glass windows. Just a year earlier, the Church of the Savior was built on Lee Road, which is French Gothic. So there is a great comparison between the two. The very unique aspect of this church is that there is a courtyard like many of the English cathedrals. Not only that, there is a stone pulpit out in the courtyard, which is very unique. And another interesting comment would be concerning the tower. Dr. Swasey, Ambrose Swasey was chairman of the building committee, and they presented him with, or the committee, with many designs. And he kept saying, no, no, this I won’t approve. No, no. And I guess they had about 15 designs or so. And so then finally they came up with another design. And that’s okay. I like that. Well, it’ll cost $50,000 more. That’s okay. Put it on my pledge. So that’s how we got the tower that we have on the building today, which is very unique. It also has symbolism. On the tower, you have the symbols for each of the gospel writers, one on each side. And then you have angels up there and there are angels in front of the Sherman Memorial window in front of the church, and there are angels carved like that on the chancel in the sanctuary.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:11:33] And you said it’s unusual for a Baptist church. What denominations would usually have this type of structure?
Betty Meyers [00:11:42] Well, you can probably say Catholic, Episcopal.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:11:49] So what made them do the. You said the neo-Catholic English style. Was it just the Van Sweringens’ influence or-
Betty Meyers [00:11:59] I can’t. I can’t answer that question because I really don’t know. I don’t know that the Van Sweringens had that much influence in the design. I think they, they more or less approved and wanted to make sure that things were going to be nice right.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:12:18] After the Shaker standard.
Betty Meyers [00:12:19] Right, yeah.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:12:22] And when the first. When the church was finally completed in 1929, I believe was the end.
Betty Meyers [00:12:28] Yes, yes.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:12:30] Did they have the same type of services as far as Bible school and music programs, or did they have the bigger space? Did they have more?
Betty Meyers [00:12:38] Well, the room in here was their assembly room. And it was interesting in reading some of the church history that they opened their morning service with an orchestra. So they had enough people. Music has always been very important in this church. It was then and it still is. And so they would generally meet all together in that room. And then there were partitions around the sides and on the balcony. And there’s where they would meet for their Sunday school classes. And then, of course, they would always assemble in the sanctuary for the church service. And then the church kept growing. The original seating was about 800 in the sanctuary. And the church kept growing. By the ’60s, I think. Well, not ’60s, ’50s, they had like 300 children. And this was one of the children’s rooms. And they didn’t have enough space for the children for their classrooms. So that’s when they added an addition that you see from like here on down that was added because the church grew so much. And today that addition is a school for. It’s a nursery school and early childhood learning center. And it’s a very good one. And there are waiting lists to get into this school.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:14:14] That’s great. And has it always been kind of. Has it always been involved with the community as far as having community programs, or has the community just kind of flocked to the church?
Betty Meyers [00:14:30] Well, the church always has been involved in many kinds of community programs, not only locally or, you know, district wide, but internationally. And I will say one of the very big programs in this church that was started in the ’60s is our relationship with the church in Nicaragua. Managua, Nicaragua. It was in the ’60s, when there was a student from Nicaragua that came up and studied adenosine and came to Western Reserve to do his medical training. Eventually he was head of the emergency department over at Metro Hospital. And we had some physicians in this church, and they got together and decided to go to Nicaragua because that was the time there was a lot of polio. So there was a big contingent of doctors that went down to Nicaragua and literally wiped out polio in the country of Nicaragua. Well, after this doctor left here and went to Harvard and finished his public health degree, he went back to Nicaragua and started some programs in Nicaragua for public health and this church. Then every year, I think, with the exception of one or two years when the war was going on in Nicaragua, has sent down teams to work in the summertime. And our team just came back from down there just about 10 days ago, and what they were doing is putting in water latrines for people way back in rural countries and training people that you can’t just drink the water out of the river, you’ve got to purify the water. And they’re training people, individuals in the communities, like one person. And the community has to ask for it. It’s not that we go in and say, this is what you want to do. They have to. They have learned that there is a group that will go in and help them. So the community has to decide on one person to come and be trained. And so that person is sort of the general doctor for the community. And they also will train a teacher. So they go in. And one of the biggest things that they tell the people that you have to wash your hands in clean water. And we take that for granted, but still we don’t do it. And that is one of the real problems for dysentery down there because of the lack of education and the lack of public drinking water and that program.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:18:05] Still, you said they just came back.
Betty Meyers [00:18:06] They just. They just came back. And so, you know, we help with all kinds of projects here, too. For a while, there was a racetrack ministry program. They would go down to the racetrack. We, I guess after World War II, they sponsored eight families, eight refugee families that came over. They. A lot of volunteers have helped at the Zelma George Center. Just. We’ve established a program now once a year, the first Sunday in June, where we will go out and work in the neighborhood. We ran around. There was a group went to the neighbors here, collecting food for the poor. There was a group of people that went to the men’s center over on Euclid. Avenue. Our choir went to judge and nursing home facilities and sang for the people down there. There was another group that worked in this room with sewing machines making bandages to send to third World countries. And then our building is used for many, many, many things. Apollo’s Fire does many of their concerts here. Opera Tutti comes here for concerts. We have done concerts with several choirs the last several years. Plymouth Church and Fairmount Presbyterian Church. And our choir has gone together and we’ve done programs here and then we’ve gone over there. And this last year we all joined together at Plymouth in honor of the Shaker celebration. And we do recital programs here. So there are just many. And we have two types of services. So we have the traditional service and we have, what should you say, a service which is less formal, where we have drums and guitar and so forth instead of the organ. So there’s a lot of variation of types of worship in the church.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:20:43] And do you think that is probably the reason why so many people are coming and they keep coming back?
Betty Meyers [00:20:50] Well, the type of worship is, of course, important, but also the projects that you do and the love that you show each other and the support that you give each other is very important as well.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:21:11] And how important do you think that is to Shaker Heights and the Cleveland Heights community?
Betty Meyers [00:21:19] Well, you know, in specific to Shaker Heights, we also have an after school program for some of the students. This coming season, the Shaker Heights High School choir is going to join with the Berea Men’s Choir and our choir to do a joint concert. So the church here is really, I’d say, a fortress in the community. And I think they would really miss it if it disappeared.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:21:52] And I did answer, I did ask, and you answered all my questions that I gave you. But do you have any other kind of stories that you read or stories that you experienced here that you want to share?
Betty Meyers [00:22:09] Well, I don’t know so much stories as I think the building itself speaks volumes because if you would walk around the building on the outside and on the inside, you would see a lot of symbolism like you see in the Gothic churches in Europe. And the one thing that I have to give credit for, the building committee and the forefathers in this church, or I shouldn’t say just forefathers, the four people, maybe forefathers, is a little bit narrow at this point. They got the finest people that they knew. Walker and Weeks were the architects. They built Severance Hall. They built the Federal Reserve Building. I mean, they were the prime architects in the 20s in this city. And they got the best. They got James Phyllis to do the wood carving. He has done many of the churches. He has done banks downtown. His work is also in St. John the Divine in New York City. The stained glass windows that were done here were done by just top people. First of all, I think it’s interesting that the two large windows on each end of the sanctuary were done by a Clevelander. So for the main work, they went with Cleveland people and his work is just phenomenal. But for the side windows, they chose well known artists. At that period of time, there were about four major stained glass companies in the United States. And one of the finest artists, in fact, who has stained glass windows in I think all but three states, was chosen to do several windows here. Most of the people that have done windows here are represented in the national cathedral in Washington, St. John the Divine in New York. One did the Valley Forge Chapel, another the Heinz Chapel in Pittsburgh, Duke Chapel. I mean, these people are represented in the finest Gothic buildings in the country. So they didn’t spare anything to get the finest quality that they could possibly get. So I just think it’s tremendous that they didn’t settle for anything but the best.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:25:11] I think that’s like a representation of just Shaker Heights are more representation of just the people who started the church.
Betty Meyers [00:25:21] Oh, I think it was the people that started the church, they wanted the finest.
Gabriella Halligan-Taylor [00:25:29] Well, great. That’s all I have. Unless you have anything you want to share.
Betty Meyers [00:25:35] I think awesome. That’s about it.
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