Abstract
Ivan L. Otto, an immigrant to Cleveland, recalls traveling from Hungary as a refugee after World War Two. He describes the schools he went to throughout his life, and how he befriended an African American in the sixth grade who taught him English. According to Otto, they were two outsiders who stuck together. He mentions the different areas and neighborhoods that he lived in as a Clevelander. He also describes the big cases that he worked on as a lawyer. The biggest being the Doan Brook Dam. As a major sports fan, Otto does not forget to include the city's many different sports organizations, and how he grew a fondness for the different past-times. He concludes by saying that Cleveland is on an upswing, and the most interesting period in Cleveland's history that he can recall is now.
Interviewee
Otto, Ivan L. (interviewee)
Interviewer
Schnoke, Molly (interviewer)
Project
Judson Manor
Date
3-18-2014
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
69 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Ivan L. Otto Interview, 18 March 2014" (2014). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 913030.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/537
Transcript
Transcription sponsored by Terry Lyons
Molly Schnoke [00:00:01] So my name is Molly Schnoke. I’m from Cleveland State University. This interview is being conducted for the Judson Oral History Project. And your name is?
Ivan Otto [00:00:08] Ivan Otto.
Molly Schnoke [00:00:10] And your date of birth?
Ivan Otto [00:00:11] December 4th, 1936.
Molly Schnoke [00:00:14] So, Mr. Otto, you’re not originally from Cleveland or the United States?
Ivan Otto [00:00:19] That is correct. I was born in Hungary and came to the United States in 1949.
Molly Schnoke [00:00:25] What do you remember about your childhood in Hungary?
Ivan Otto [00:00:29] Oh, quite a bit. It was a wonder. Glorious time. My parents were perhaps the 1%, upper 1%. And my dad was an engineer, worked for the Department of Interior. My mother stayed home and took care of us. Initially just me and then my sister, who was born in 1940, and eventually my second sister, who was born in 1944. My mother’s family traced their ancestry back to the beginning of hungry. The ancestor was knighted for valor against the Tatars. And as a matter of fact, there is a street in Budapest that is named for the family. My dad’s family, our ancestors, the Otto’s, came from Germany after the Turks moved out. And there was always a male in line, so the Otto name continued. But they married Hungarian ladies. And my grandfather was the city engineer for the city of Katymár, which is a beautiful town in southern Hungary.
Molly Schnoke [00:02:10] What was the name of the town or city you grew up in?
Ivan Otto [00:02:13] I grew up in a town called Szolnok, which was. I was born in Nyíregyháza, which is in eastern Hungary. Szolnok is just south of Budapest on the Tisza, which is one of the two main rivers in Hungary. Of course, the main river in Hungary is the Danube. The Tisza is a river that comes out of the east and joins the Danube and is a very violent river. And part of my dad’s job was try to control the river and its flooding and other misbehavior.
Molly Schnoke [00:03:00] How old were you when you came to your United states?
Ivan Otto [00:03:02] I was 13.
Molly Schnoke [00:03:04] And what brought you here?
Ivan Otto [00:03:06] We fled from the Russians in 1945. 1944, 1945. And when the war ended, we were in Germany and in southern Germany and Bavaria. And after spending four years as refugees, we came to this country because, of course, there was little or no future for us in Hungary, which by then was behind the Iron Curtain. What brought us here was an attempt at a better life. Putting pieces back together and continuing in a free society.
Molly Schnoke [00:03:58] Was Cleveland your first stop in the United States?
Ivan Otto [00:04:02] Yes, first and only. We were came over by boat, of course. And the boat did not dock at Ellis Island. It docked in Boston. The folks Put us on a train to Cleveland. And we came to Cleveland because the people who signed the assurances which were required in order for a person to immigrate to the United States, and these assurances were assurances by people who were gainfully employed in the United States, that the people about whom the assurances were written would not become a burden to the state, and that these folks would take care of them if they didn’t get a job. So the refugees went wherever the assurances came from. So some of the people we came over on the boat went to Philadelphia, some went out to Iowa to a farm. All sorts of different people went to different places.
Molly Schnoke [00:05:20] Do you recall what your first impression of Cleveland was?
Ivan Otto [00:05:24] Well, my first impression of Cleveland was awesome. Because, this was December, early December 1949. And after four years of very, very little celebration, although by 1948, things were loosening up a little, here we are. We’re put up temporarily at the Bolton Square Hotel, which was a residential hotel at the Corner of East 89th and Carnegie. Its claim to fame was that this is where those Cleveland Indians who did not have their families with them, this is where they would live during the season. So you had Cleveland Indian pictures all over the place. And of course, this is 1949, disappointing season because the Indians won the World Series in 1948, and they did not repeat, but nevertheless, the city was proud of them. Up the street just a couple of blocks, and the building still exists, and it was part of the Cleveland Playhouse facilities. And the Museum of Contemporary Art was housed. There was a Sears store, and the Sears store was bedecked for Christmas. And the colors and the variety of goods available were just overwhelming. So this is. This is a very nice impression. And for the first time, we drank homogenized milk by the gallon.
Molly Schnoke [00:07:40] You liked it?
Ivan Otto [00:07:41] Oh, yes. For something we had never had before. And I could have all the bananas that I wanted. I never knew a banana until 1948, when my dad bought one banana from a fruit vendor near the railroad station in , which is in southern Germany.
Molly Schnoke [00:08:08] And you liked them?
Ivan Otto [00:08:10] And I love bananas. I loved them then. I love them now.
Molly Schnoke [00:08:15] Did you find Cleveland welcoming?
Ivan Otto [00:08:17] Oh, yes. People were very, very friendly. Very friendly. Right from the beginning, Americans were friendly. When we got to the railroad station in Boston to get on the New York Central train that came out of Boston and joined the train that came out of New York City, when we got to the railroad station, everything was closed. It was late at night, and we were starving. And there was only one counter that was open. And it had some of the folks who were also waiting for the train and mostly working people around it. And they just yelled for us to come over, and they bought us hot dogs, which was my first time I had a hot dog. And after that, everyone. Everyone was, with few exceptions, were always courteous, understanding, helpful. Every once in a while, you’d get. You’d get. You’d get, you know, ‘you goddamn DP, why don’t you go home?’, Every once in a while you’d get that. But it was few and far between, few and far between. And most of the people, if they. If it was set in a crowd, most of the people were very apologetic. So it was. It was a very welcoming place.
Molly Schnoke [00:10:02] How was the train ride from Boston?
Ivan Otto [00:10:05] It was very, very comfortable. Very comfortable. Very comfortable train ride. Very full of adventure. We were looking for Indians. And after all, the train was coming through the Mohawk Valley, and, I mean, after all, you’re supposed to have Indians all around you. We didn’t find them until we came to Cleveland. Found the Cleveland Indians.
Molly Schnoke [00:10:33] Did you ever see any baseball players in the hotel?
Ivan Otto [00:10:36] No. No, just. Just the pictures all over the place. And the stories, of course, by the elevator operator and the maids and the management.
Molly Schnoke [00:10:49] When you finally settled in, where did your family.
Ivan Otto [00:10:53] The first place we lived was on the west side, Woodbine Avenue, which is a street that runs off of Fulton Road, very close to Lorain. And we stayed there for a year or so, and then we moved to West 47th Street off of Lorain, between Lorain and Ridge. And we stayed there for five years, and then we moved out to Parma when Mom and Dad bought a house out there.
Molly Schnoke [00:11:27] Your father was an engineer?
Ivan Otto [00:11:29] He was an engineer, a civil engineer and worked on these flood control projects.
Molly Schnoke [00:11:37] What did he do upon arriving in Cleveland?
Ivan Otto [00:11:40] He was a busboy at Korman’s, which was a very popular restaurant on East 9th Street. He was a busboy until one of the waitresses accused him of taking her tip, and he, of course, did not, but was accused, and so he quit. So then he became a plumber’s helper until his back couldn’t take it anymore. And then he got a real job, joined the Teamsters and scraped rust off of the undercarriage of trucks and trailers. But then eventually he learned enough of the language to get an engineering job. And from then on, he worked as an engineer.
Molly Schnoke [00:12:37] Was language a big barrier for you?
Ivan Otto [00:12:40] It was for him. He had a hard time learning English. My mother had no problem. She had the facility. But my father had a tough time. But eventually he learned Enough English to get by.
Molly Schnoke [00:12:55] Did your mother work?
Ivan Otto [00:12:57] No, she did not. My mother’s mother, my grandmother died of tuberculosis back when my mother was still a little girl. And my mother had tuberculosis in Germany. And then it went into remission long enough for us to get to this country because you couldn’t be admitted with tuberculosis. And then it recurred, and so the radical approach at that time was of course there was no, there was a way to put it into remission by then with drugs. But this surgeon suggested that she had the diseased lung removed, which she did. And he said to her, you’ll be good for 20 years. And she lasted 40 years, but she never worked. It was a bit beyond her.
Molly Schnoke [00:14:10] Cleveland had a rather large Hungarian community at the time. Were you plugged into that?
Ivan Otto [00:14:17] Not at all, not at all. Our purpose was to assimilate, not to become part of the Hungarian speaking group. So every once in a while we’d have some, some doings to which we would go, but they were few and far between. We were more intent on learning our English and becoming part of the landscape.
Molly Schnoke [00:14:41] And then where did you begin school when you came to Cleveland?
Ivan Otto [00:14:46] When I came to Cleveland, I had finished two years of Gymnasium, which is equivalent to the sixth grade. No, fifth and sixth grade. Yes, in Germany, and then started the seventh grade when we came over. So after being interviewed by school officials, Cleveland Public Schools, I was put into the sixth grade at Kentucky School and went to Kentucky School, graduated from Kentucky School at sixth grade and then went over to junior high and transferred to St. Stephen’s which was West 5th, is still is, although the school isn’t in operation anymore, but the parish is. It’s West 54th street, right off of Lorain, and graduated from there and then went to Cathedral Latin School, which is in the neighborhood here. Wise in the neighborhood here. Graduated from there, went to John Carroll University and graduated from John Carroll and then went on to Western Reserve Law School, which at that time was Western Reserve University, not Case Western Reserve University. So Western Reserve University, graduated from there, went to work for Squire Sanders and Dempsey, which is a large firm in downtown Cleveland, and became a partner, was away for two years in the army doing my duty and retired from Squire Sanders several years later.
Molly Schnoke [00:16:51] So let’s go back to your first, your first years at Kentucky, your first year there. How did you. Aside from possibly the language barrier, what was the biggest difference with school that you had had over in Europe and then schooling here in the uk?
Ivan Otto [00:17:08] Well, the first big difference was there were girls in the class in Europe at the Gymnasium, no girls, just boys.
Molly Schnoke [00:17:22] So did girls not go to school at all or did they?
Ivan Otto [00:17:24] Oh, no, no. They went to a segregated school. But Kentucky School had girls and that was very exciting. And the atmosphere was quite different. A German school is a very strongly disciplined environment and physical punishment was not out of the question. And because it was all boys, it was very. It was very militaristic. But when you went to Kentucky school, things were much happier and we were having fun.
Molly Schnoke [00:18:15] You recall those as happy?
Ivan Otto [00:18:17] Absolutely. It was a happy group. A wonderful teacher, very helpful, and the only Black kid in the class took it upon himself to teach me English. And he and I were buds.
Molly Schnoke [00:18:37] He was the only African American in the school at the time?
Ivan Otto [00:18:38] In the class.
Molly Schnoke [00:18:41] What year was that?
Ivan Otto [00:18:42] 1940, 1950.
Molly Schnoke [00:18:47] What was that like?
Ivan Otto [00:18:50] Was he unusual?
Molly Schnoke [00:18:52] Well, was he welcome? Was he?
Ivan Otto [00:18:54] Oh, he was my bud. Yeah. He made sure I didn’t go to the girl’s bathroom and made sure I had my assignment and explained things to me. He was a very patient, wonderful, wonderful kid. And so the two outsiders hung together and he was just a delight. He was just a wonderful man.
Molly Schnoke [00:19:27] How about your transition then to Catholic?
Ivan Otto [00:19:32] Oh, that was not a problem. That was not a problem. Again, it was a co-ed and so that was. I had some difficulties with. With learning the routine that they. Well, I didn’t have any difficulty. It was just a matter of paying attention and see what their routine was. Their routine was quite different. It was still a happy group, but there were things that we were taught by an old man. Although she pretended to be a disciplinarian, she was really a sweetheart. But there were certain things that you had to do that you wouldn’t think that you would have in mind. One thing I remember, the nun asked for all those who will be going to confession on Saturday to stand up. And the entire class stood up except me, because I didn’t know whether I was going to go or not. And she looked at me and she said, I, you’re the only one who isn’t going to go. I said, well, I might. I just haven’t decided yet. Well, after a lot of rumination, I said, you know, maybe I ought to go to confession. So I went to confession and none of my classmates were there. And I thought to myself, yeah, you two faced people, you. But that was the kind of thing that, you know.
Molly Schnoke [00:21:41] And you say you were on the west side, you were in Parma and going to Cathedral Latin.
Ivan Otto [00:21:47] No. Yes, as a matter of fact. No, no, no, no, no, that was by then I was at John Carroll when we moved to Parma. No, all of my time at Cathedral Latin was from West 47th Street.
Molly Schnoke [00:22:02] What was that commute like to go across town?
Ivan Otto [00:22:05] It was long. You caught a streetcar. If you caught. You knew when the streetcar would come. There was one streetcar that would come from Kamm’s Corner all the way out West 140th street, down Lorain. And then it would. At 25th street, it would go north. And then of course, under the bridge, under the Detroit Superior Bridge, through Public Square and out to 107th Street, out to University Circle, which at that time was not known as University Circle. But they came all the way to 107th street to where the bus terminal is by the Rapid. So if I caught that one, I could sit and snooze or whatever all the way over. And I tried to do that. If not, you just transferred it.
Molly Schnoke [00:23:04] How long of a ride was it?
Ivan Otto [00:23:06] It was quite a long ride. It was pretty much close to an hour before you got to Latin. So you had to, you know, you had to time yourself. You had to make sure that you got up early enough and whatnot.
Molly Schnoke [00:23:19] Did you ever notice that east side, west side difference?
Ivan Otto [00:23:25] Not really. Not at that time. At that time, it just didn’t register. And the reason that it didn’t really register is because the area around Latin at that time, except for the area immediately adjacent to downtown, was white middle class. So they were the same people who lived on the west side as lived on the east side. And so I never perceived a difference until much later when actually when I was in law school. And that’s when you began to notice that the middle class was leaving the area. But still, even in law school, you had a lot of folks living around the neighborhood who were white and middle class. And it just didn’t. It just didn’t sink in until quite a bit later.
Molly Schnoke [00:24:48] What years was law school for you?
Ivan Otto [00:24:50] 1959–1962.
Molly Schnoke [00:24:53] What was University Circle like at that time?
Ivan Otto [00:24:56] Of course, there was Severance Hall in the Museum of Art, and you had the University. All the facilities of the university on Bellflower. You had the Fraternity and Sorority Row. And then close to the corner of Ford and Mayfield, you had the Brick Cottage, which was a local hangout. And there were restaurants on the other side. The Aurora was there.
Molly Schnoke [00:25:29] What were some of the favorite hangouts? You just mentioned one. What were some of the other haunts of Case Western?
Ivan Otto [00:25:36] Well, it depended on how adventuresome you were. The Brick was a pretty straight place. But there were some more adventuresome venues down on 105th Street. And of course you had Adele’s pizza at the 117th, which was known for different kinds of stuff.
Molly Schnoke [00:26:14] Did you ever visit these more adventurous places?
Ivan Otto [00:26:17] Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I was too busy by then. We had two kids and I was too busy with law school to do other than perhaps stop with some friends at the Brick and have some Cuba Libres.
Molly Schnoke [00:26:35] And where were you living at this time?
Ivan Otto [00:26:39] By then I was married and we lived in an apartment house which was just east of the Brick, a couple of doors down. It was a six suiter called The Palms.
Molly Schnoke [00:26:55] The Palms?
Ivan Otto [00:26:56] The Palms. And Herb B. Who was the track coach at Case, lived on our floor. We lived on the third floor. Classmates of Kathy’s lived in the front apartment, we lived in the back apartment. And across the hall from us lived a couple of law students, a couple of classmates, as a matter of fact, from law school. And it was very convenient. You walked to school and then I took a bus to go downtown to work at a small law firm.
Molly Schnoke [00:27:33] What was the name of the firm?
Ivan Otto [00:27:35] Highland and Highland. And they were basically in the plaintiff’s business, personal injuries, a little bit of estate work. And I was the docket clerk. I was a runner and would go to the courts and file papers if there was an interesting trial. You popped in and sat in for a half an hour or more and watched the masters at work.
Molly Schnoke [00:28:11] What was your first firm out of law school?
Ivan Otto [00:28:16] Out of law school was Squires, Sanders, and Dempsey? Yes, I did. I had one interview for a permanent position in my entire life. The rest were interviews for temporary positions, but only one for a permanent position.
Molly Schnoke [00:28:37] And you handled law in areas of public finance?
Ivan Otto [00:28:42] That is correct. I did public finance, did the legal work for borrowings by cities, villages, townships, school districts, the state of Ohio.
Molly Schnoke [00:28:56] What were some of the big projects you worked on?
Ivan Otto [00:28:58] Well, probably the biggest project was I was involved after. Well, let me start from the beginning. Stark county has a countywide search system. And there was a thought on the part of the county commissioners in Stark County that they would like to establish a separate authority to run the SERS system. To this end, the fellow partner who represented Stark County at our firm decided, well, analyzed the existing law and found it to be wanting. So there had to be a number of amendments to the law. So I was part of the three man task force to prepare those amendments. The amendments were prepared and the legislation was introduced and passed. Stark County decided that things were just fine the way they were. But years later, when the litigation over the sewer rates and the EPA’s order not to connect to the Cleveland sanitary sewer system were winding through the courts. George McMonagle, who was a judge in charge of both of those lawsuits, consulted with one of my partners, and it was decided that a regional sewer district would be formed and the cases would be resolved. The regional sewer district was formed on the basis of the legislation that we had drafted. After the formation, after the order came down and the time for appeals expired, what is now the northeast Ohio regional shore district proceeded with one employee who was the director. They had on loan an engineer from the Cleveland water department and a lawyer from the Cleveland law department, Lou Rigo, who was the lawyer from the Cleveland law department. And I worked our way through the creation of the district, the transfer of the title to the three sewage treatment plants and the interceptor sewers, what to do with the employees in those departments and how many of these employees the sewer district would take on, and housekeeping duties like that. And then they proceeded to borrow money to pay Cleveland for the sewage treatment plants, the three sewage treatment plants. I did the legal work to authorize the borrowing. Local banks picked up the notes, and then subsequently they renewed the notes. And at that time, there was litigation involving the Lake View Cemetery.
Molly Schnoke [00:32:44] What was that around?
Ivan Otto [00:32:46] Lake View Cemetery was being flooded out by water from the Heights. And there was-
Molly Schnoke [00:32:58] Was the dam still operational then?
Ivan Otto [00:32:59] No, that’s what was financed the next time by the Regional Sewer District. They financed the dam, which now controls Doan Brook. Prior to the dam, you have pictures in the archives where you have a bus sitting at Carnegie and what was then East Boulevard now is Martin Luther King with floodwater up to its windows. And that is what was resolved with that litigation, and that financing, and with the regional sewer district. So probably the most notable work that I did was the work for the regional sewer district. But for some small communities, little financings were just as important.
Molly Schnoke [00:33:55] How many years your professional life were taken up by regional sewer issues?
Ivan Otto [00:34:02] Well, I got fired after- In 1978, they decided to go with different bond council. So I had six years with the district. And every once in a while after the. After the financing was done, I’d be called in for consultation. But I never worked for the district again on a steady basis.
Molly Schnoke [00:34:34] What would you describe as your most interesting public finance project that you worked on? Big, Small. And why was it interesting?
Ivan Otto [00:34:46] The most interesting finance projects were in the city of Akron. And I had wonderful people to work with. And the city of Akron would do public improvements, and they would assess part of the cost of these public improvements, improvements against properties that benefited from these public improvements. And they would do at least one a week, usually three or four. And they would meet every Monday night. And I’d be grinding those proceedings out, reviewing the plans, describing the improvement and doing the proceedings. I had a wonderful man I worked with down there, fella by the name of John Canone. And he was just a great man, a great friend. And we made our way through these proceedings. Initially, of course, there was a note that the city treasury bought in. And then when the project was finished and the assessments were levied, we would then go to the bond market and we would sell bonds which were usually bought by investment bankers in New York. And putting together those, at times, tens of projects was just very interesting. Working with nice people, interesting projects, and just the managing of the massive legal papers that were produced by, I think that was the most interesting.
Molly Schnoke [00:36:54] You had described moving out to your parents, moving out to Parma, the city. How was that transition?
Ivan Otto [00:37:07] Well, it was in those days, Parma was the ultimate. Parma was the ultimate suburb. And never mind Rocky River, there was no Westlake. Westlake was a bunch of farms and vineyards. Strongsville was again just a bunch of farms. But Parma was an established suburb and had all sorts of wonderful housing. The ultimate in achieving success and status was to live in Parma, at least for some people. Now, if you talk to someone who lived in Shaker Heights, that may not have been the same take. But as far as my mother was concerned, this was it. This was cool. And they did buy us really a cool house, a beautiful house. It still exists, and they kept it up beautifully.
Molly Schnoke [00:38:15] And where did your family, your wife and your children eventually settle?
Ivan Otto [00:38:19] We eventually settled in Lyndhurst. When we expanded to two kids, we moved out to East Cleveland from the apartment.
Molly Schnoke [00:38:31] Where in East Cleveland did you live?
Ivan Otto [00:38:33] On Penrose, which is a street that runs perpendicular to Euclid, just past the cemetery.
Molly Schnoke [00:38:40] What neighborhood, what year was that?
Ivan Otto [00:38:43] That was 1961.
Molly Schnoke [00:38:46] What was East Cleveland like then?
Ivan Otto [00:38:49] East Cleveland was already beginning to get segregated. Superior was the dividing line. South of Superior was white and north of Superior was black. But for the main part, for the main part, East Cleveland at that time was still mainly a white community. It had a city manager form of government. It was a model. It was a model for city government. Nationally known model for city government, Had a top-notch police force, top-notch fire department, top-notch facilities, and it was a very, very desirable suburb.
Molly Schnoke [00:39:51] What was the house you lived in?
Ivan Otto [00:39:54] The house in East Cleveland was a house that was purchased by A couple who actually lived in Euclid. And it was- Had been divided into a two-family during World War II, when the housing was very scarce here in Cleveland. The nice people who bought the house came in and they cleaned it up, painted it. We lived in the lower suite and eventually a barber and his- An Italian barber and his wife moved in the upper suite. It was really a fascinating neighborhood. There were all sorts of people there.
Molly Schnoke [00:40:45] Ethnic mix?
Ivan Otto [00:40:46] Ethnic, yes, very much so. Next door there was a couple who were Eastern European. And the house beyond them was an Italian fellow who worked for the Teamsters. And he was an enforcer for the Teamsters. So everybody respected him. On the other side was an old retired stonemason. Italian. And he would- He would be up very early in the morning. That was his usual habit. He would be up early in the morning and he would be in his garden in the back, and his friend, who was still working, would be walking down the street and the two of them would converse, shouting at each other from one end of the driveway to the other.
Molly Schnoke [00:41:55] In Italian or English?
Ivan Otto [00:41:56] In Italian, of course. And then in back of us was a family that put a television set in the tree, and they would come out and have their dinner and cook out and then watch television until midnight with television in the trees.
Molly Schnoke [00:42:21] Very eclectic.
Ivan Otto [00:42:23] All sorts of people. All sorts of people.
Molly Schnoke [00:42:26] How long did you live there?
Ivan Otto [00:42:27] And we lived there for two years. Then I went in the army and we moved down to Fort Eustis, Virginia, which is just south of Williamsburg, and had two wonderful years down there and came back. Lived in Warrensville Heights for five years in an apartment out in Clarkwood Gardens.
Molly Schnoke [00:42:53] Why did you choose Warrensville Heights?
Ivan Otto [00:42:55] When we moved down to. When I went in for officers basic course, we. My friend and I, who went, drove down together. We were looking for housing on post because that made most sense. You got a housing allowance and you simply got the house. You got all the utilities except telephone. And the housing that was down there were what was called Capehart, named after Homer Capehart, who was a senator from Kentucky who sponsored the bill to create military housing for families on posts. Kathy liked the structure. It was a townhouse. You would have a downstairs with a kitchen, utility room and a large area which you could divide into a living and dining area. Sliding doors to a back patio. Upstairs you’d have a bathroom and three bedrooms. Kathy liked it so much, we would get the Plain Dealer sent to us while we were there for the sole purpose that she could look through the real estate section and see where these Townhouses were. So when we came back, we lived over here at what was then the Commodore, which is called something else now, on the corner of Ford and Mayfield, for a while explored these townhouse developments that she had spotted. We went out to Warrensville Heights. There was bus service almost to the door, and there was a brand new building opening up that had a four bedroom townhouse. So Kathy thought that was just right. So we grabbed it and we lived there until she said, ‘I need more room’. And then we bought the house in Lyndhurst.
Molly Schnoke [00:45:32] What year did you buy the house in Lyndhurst?
Ivan Otto [00:45:34] What was Lyndhurst like in 1970? It was and is just a lovely, lovely place. The city services are outstanding. And again, an eclectic group of people. We had Jewish neighbors, Italian neighbors, Eastern European neighbors, all sorts of different kinds of people. All very, very friendly, very nice, except for one. But eventually he moved and you spent the remaining. And we stayed there until we moved into Judson, which was 33 years later.
Molly Schnoke [00:46:24] What were some of your favorite places to visit in the city when your kids were young?
Ivan Otto [00:46:29] Well, besides the playground, loved to go to the zoo. We spent a lot of time out at North Chagrin Reservation when my son was older. We’d secure tickets to the Browns games and we’d go down there on the bus, on the CTS bus that took you down there and dropped you off at your gate.
Molly Schnoke [00:47:09] In the old stadium?
Ivan Otto [00:47:10] In the old Municipal Stadium? Oh, yes.
Molly Schnoke [00:47:12] What were games like there?
Ivan Otto [00:47:16] Oh, yes. Oh, they were cold, mostly raucous. Lots of noise, lots of noise. And we had our share of drunks and share frustration, of course. But I liked the old Municipal Stadium. It just had a certain patina to it, certain atmosphere. I remember that in high school I was a contact for both the Cleveland Press and the Cleveland Plain Dealer for all football and basketball games. So to the extent that a reporter couldn’t come out to see the games and keep the score and make an analysis, I would call in the score and the statistics, who was a high score and so on. And there was a football game to which we were invited. And we had lunch at the Stadium Club and then we were seated in the stadium in our special section. So that was my first acquaintance in high school with Cleveland Municipal Stadium.
Molly Schnoke [00:49:00] How did you get the position as the contact?
Ivan Otto [00:49:03] I was the sports editor of the school paper, so that was logical for them. And one day, the fellow who covered scholastic sports at the Plain Dealer, who preceded a fellow named Ed Shea, this was a fellow named Dick Zund. And Dick was watching me taking notes on the football game. He said, Ivan, he said, let me show you how you diagram a football game. And he showed me how you diagram a football game and you pick up every play accurately and you’re able to report very, very accurately what the statistics were and who did what. And then he also showed me how to do that to a basketball game. And it was fascinating because you called your story into a guy who was on deadline and who was very curt and wanted facts quickly and accurately. And then your stuff would appear as a paragraph or two and then the box score for basketball game and of course for football games too. So you were absolutely secondary copy. But because of what Shea taught me, I mean, Zund taught me, I was able to get more space than anybody because I was able to recall all the statistics more extensively and more accurately.
Molly Schnoke [00:51:09] So the Cleveland sports town feel was a big part of your-
Ivan Otto [00:51:13] Oh, absolutely. Oh, yeah.
Molly Schnoke [00:51:15] What is your favorite sports period for Cleveland?
Ivan Otto [00:51:22] The Cleveland Browns, from, oh, from the very beginning was very interesting because when I was in the sixth grade at Kentucky school, they took us over to the Y on Franklin Avenue and they showed us game films from a Cleveland Browns game. And it, believe it or not, it was a game that took place between the Cleveland Browns and The San Francisco 49ers at Kezar Stadium in San Francisco And neither of them were in the NFL. This was in the American Football League, which then the NFL took in certain teams, including the San Francisco 49ers Cleveland Browns. So this was the first time for me see these guys, huge guys with helmets on and padding, and they’re whacking at each other. And I thought, that’s an interesting sport. That’s the most interesting sport, basketball. Of course, we didn’t have any pro teams at that time, except George Steinbrenner attempted the Cleveland Pipers, and he tried to get them going, but it didn’t really catch on. People were interested in. In high school basketball and college basketball.
Molly Schnoke [00:53:08] What year was that? What years was that with-
Ivan Otto [00:53:11] That would be in the ’50s, ’60s.
Molly Schnoke [00:53:14] And why do you think it didn’t catch on?
Ivan Otto [00:53:17] There just wasn’t the audience. I think part of it may have been the venue, because you really didn’t have a venue. The Public Hall, I think, is where they played their games. The Pipers, as a matter of fact, I think maybe even the Cavaliers played at Public Hall. And that wasn’t much of a venue. That wasn’t much of a venue. And of course you had, you know, during the summer you had the Indians. And of course people. People felt that the world really had come to a base. An end for baseball when, when the 1954 Indians were swept by the Giants, the most successful American League. They had the most wins, they had a fantastic pitching staff, but they couldn’t get a hit. And they lost to the Giants in four straight. It was never the same after that.
Molly Schnoke [00:54:34] No? Even to this day?
Ivan Otto [00:54:35] Except for the brief run in the mid-’90s.
Molly Schnoke[00:54:45] It never recovered the feel of the 50s?
Ivan Otto [00:54:46] There was a brief recovery in the ’90s and of course we never won the World Series and we lost to the Atlanta Braves. And the Atlanta Braves were the Boston Braves in those days and we beat those guys in 1948. So it’s been, you know, there are the die hard fans. There was the beauty of those three. Well, the 94th season was cut short by the strike, but ’95 and ’97 made it into the World Series both times and failed both times. It’s a, it’s a tough, tough scene for baseball here in this town. A lot of fans, A lot of fans. But think about it. You know, you had those 400 some games total sellouts during those years. And here last year when the boys were in the hunt, you could. The most that you could muster was 26,000 in that stadium. So, you know, it’ll take a little more than just hope to get people back into that stadium.
Molly Schnoke [00:56:19] How would you describe that feeling from ’48 to ’54 with sports in Cleveland? Right, because people describe Cleveland as that sports town.
Ivan Otto [00:56:29] Oh, absolutely. It was very exciting because the Browns just kept winning. They beat everybody in the American Football League. Then they joined the NFL. And I think the first season they were in the NFL or reasonably soon after that, they beat the best the NFL could offer. I think it was a Giant.
Molly Schnoke [00:56:58] Did everybody listen to it on radio?
Ivan Otto [00:57:00] Oh, yeah, and people still do. You know, there are just thousands of fans who listen faithfully, who go down to the stadium faithfully, but they have very little hope that the management can put together a decent team. They listen, they watch, but then they know how it’s going to, how it’s going to end.
Molly Schnoke [00:57:38] So even taking sports into this context, what would you say was the most interesting period in Cleveland’s history that you got to experience?
Ivan Otto [00:57:48] I think it is right now. I think it is right now because there was the tail end of the euphoria of the victory during World War II, of course, which was heavily tampered by the Korean War. And then downtown was still vibrant. That’s where we would go for entertainment. First run movies down there. All the Playhouse at Playhouse Square were movie houses on a Saturday night. It was packed. Everything was packed. The restaurants were packed. Afterwards, we’d go to different places. There was a place called Boukair’s.
Molly Schnoke [00:58:56] Where was that?
Ivan Otto [00:58:57] And that was- The building may be gone, maybe not, but it was in the 14th Street-Euclid area, and it had wonderful milkshakes and sundaes and snacks. It was a great place. Eventually moved out to South. No, to University Circle. I mean, University Heights, in that Cedar Center shopping center. They were there for a while. But anyway, it was vibrant and it was exciting. And then, you know, then television came and people started not coming down, and there were incidents, and so it was sort of the tail end of everything. But today, you know, you’ve got. You. You do have the sports venues, you do have the theater, and you have the film festival. You’ve got what’s going on out here in University Circle. You’ve got the dynamic health systems, brand newly expanded Museum of Art. The Cleveland Orchestra keeps being number one in the world. A friend of mine who graduated with me from undergrad was in Vienna last year, and he was telling me the story of. He wanted to. He wanted to see here to the Vienna Philharmonic and was buying some souvenirs. And a young lady asked him where he was from, and she said, well, why are you here? And he said, well, I’m here to hear the Vienna Philharmonic. And she said, but you have the Cleveland Orchestra. So it is. I think this is the most exciting time in all the years that I’ve been here in Cleveland. I think people waxed nostalgic to the era following World War II, but it was, as you look back, it was fading. Cleveland was fading, and people didn’t know it. People were moving out of the city. The desegregation order had a tremendous effect. And so I think there were just beautiful times that started to fade. But here, now, there are great times, and they’re just flourishing.
Molly Schnoke [01:02:17] How did you experience that desegregation order and busing in Cleveland?
Ivan Otto [01:02:23] It was- Oh, my gosh. It was one of those things where you knew where justice was. You knew that the Cleveland school board was trying to fight the order and not obey it. The racial incidents. Now, this was before the desegregation order. What the policy of the board at that time was to try to have separate and equal. So they were building these schools in the Black neighborhoods to house Black kids and house white kids over on the west side. If you recall that young minister who lost his life protesting the building of one of those Schools. But that was the idea. And they built a new school over on Random, which is just up the road in Little Italy, which are now condominiums. The old school was for the neighborhood kids who were Italian, and they would bus the kids in from overcrowded Black schools into this new school. The buses would arrive after the Italian kids were in the old school and leave the kids. The Black kids would leave before the old school got dismissed. But the protests were unbelievable.
Molly Schnoke [01:04:38] In the neighborhood?
Ivan Otto [01:04:39] In the neighborhood. The violence, the vilification of those poor children who were getting off the bus. It was like being in Mississippi.
Molly Schnoke [01:04:52] How old were you at the time?
Ivan Otto [01:04:54] Well, this was, you know, this was in the- I’m trying to remember. I was an adult.
Molly Schnoke [01:05:03] Did you have school-age children at the time?
Ivan Otto [01:05:06] No. Well, yeah, yes, of course I probably did, but they were, you know, out in Lyndhurst. This was just stuff that we saw on the tube.
Molly Schnoke [01:05:18] Was it kind of a constant coverage of this, or did it made it in every now and then?
Ivan Otto [01:05:27] Oh, no, this was a constant.
Molly Schnoke [01:05:32] Beamed into your living room?
Ivan Otto [01:05:33] Absolutely. And of course, you know, when the busing order came down, of course people started moving out because they didn’t want their kids to be number one, bused, number two, put into an environment that they didn’t trust. And it basically decimated the white neighborhoods on the west side and on the east side, too, because there were white neighborhoods on the east side, too. You know, those people who could fled. And I would suspect that there were black people who left, too, because they didn’t want their children going across town and being exposed to the kind of vilification that happened on occasion.
Molly Schnoke [01:06:38] You experienced this from the suburbs, from Lyndhurst. But was it something that everyone was talking about, you and your neighbors and what was going on?
Ivan Otto [01:06:48] Oh, we were all very much aware of this. And we were all aware of the terrible conflict between justice and the reality of. Of people’s feelings. And we’re very much aware of that. Very much so.
Molly Schnoke [01:07:11] I want to be respectful of your time, and it’s already been an hour. Is there anything you think we didn’t cover? Anything that you would like to talk about specifically?
Ivan Otto [01:07:31] Just in summation, Cleveland is. There’s a. George Condon, who used to write for the Plain Dealer, has a wonderful book, and if you haven’t read it, you got to read it. It’s Cleveland, the Best Kept Secret. And he writes about the history of Cleveland and some of the wonderful things that exist in Cleveland. He also has a second book, and I think there are some others also. But Cleveland is a terrific community. It has a great deal of creativity. It is a very comfortable place. It is user friendly. It’s got wonderful, wonderful assets, including schools. The Cleveland public schools trying very, very hard in a very tough situation to create an environment for children where they will learn. We have the orchestra, we have the museum, we have the theater. We have access to everything that you could think of. Fine restaurants, interesting neighborhoods being revitalized, and really great in town housing. And Cleveland is just a very special place. And I wouldn’t have wanted to live anywhere else.
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