Abstract

Members of the Shiloh Baptist Church congregation share their observations and recollections about the church, its traditional events, and the Cedar-Central community.

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Interviewee

Michael, Charles (interviewee); Richardson, Gloria (interviewee); Haynes, Sandra (interviewee); Walker, Belva (interviewee); Brown, Maxine (Interviewees)

Interviewer

Raponi, Rich (Interviewer)

Project

Sacred Landmarks

Date

5-25-2011

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

56 minutes

Transcript

Rich Raponi [00:00:05] My name is Richard Raponi, and I’m conducting an interview for the Center for Public History and Digital Humanities to document the history of Shiloh Baptist Church. The interview is being held at Shiloh Baptist Church, located on the Corner of East 55th Street and Scovill Avenue in Cleveland, Ohio. Could everyone please state their name?

Charles Michael [00:00:23] My name is Charles Michael.

Gloria Richardson [00:00:26] Gloria Richardson.

Sandra Haynes [00:00:28] Sandra Haynes.

Maxine Brown [00:00:30] Maxine Brown.

Belva Walker [00:00:32] Belva Waller.

Rich Raponi [00:00:36] And as a starting point, I’d like to go around the same order and get a little background on everyone, including how long you’ve been a member of your Shiloh congregation. Let’s stop for a second so I can make sure this is working. I think it’s okay. As a starting point, I’d like to go around in the same order and give a little background on everyone, including how long you’ve been a member of Shiloh Congregation and how you came to be a part of the parish.

Charles Michael [00:01:05] Okay. My name is Charles Michael. I’ve been a member of Shiloh. Well, my parents were members here, so I officially joined in 1957, I think it was. I’m the vice. I mean, the chairperson of the trustee ministry. I became a trustee in 1973, also became a deacon in 1978. So. And I served as vice chair of the trustee ministry for about 20 years. And so now I’m the chairperson.

Gloria Richardson [00:01:51] I am Gloria Richardson. My mother joined Shiloh Baptist Church in February of 1927, and I have been here over 70 years, and I’ve served in various ministries.

Sandra Haynes [00:02:13] Sandra Haynes. And I have been a member for, since 1969, when I moved to Cleveland. I am vice chair of the trustee ministry and have been on the trustee ministry for approximately 10 years. And I serve in various capacities here at Shiloh in various ministries that we have here.

Maxine Brown [00:02:44] I’m Maxine Brown. As I said, my mother moved to Cleveland, Ohio, in 1924, became a member of Shiloh. So.

Maxine Brown [00:02:58] When I was born, I just automatically became, started attending Shiloh. I actually joined in 1946. I was the first female to hold an office above secretary in the trustee ministry. I was the first vice chair of the trustee ministry. I’m now still on the board, but I don’t hold an office anymore. I have served in every singing aggregation in the church with the exception of the men’s chorus for obvious reasons, as well as many other organizations.

Belva Walker [00:03:44] I’m Belva Walker. I came here in 1963 when my husband was called to pastor this church, and I’ve been here since then. I joined the church at that time, and I’ve Been here ever since. And I have served as minister of music. Right now I’m a member of the choir and I play an instrument when called upon. But I’ve been in the missionary ministry and the education award ministry.

Rich Raponi [00:04:21] So now we’re going to just sort of open everything up for discussion, starting with Shiloh Baptist Church has been around since Cleveland’s earliest days as a city. Could you tell me a little bit about the history of the parish?

Maxine Brown [00:04:39] Well, from what I understand, it started with we were originally members of a white parish, Cleveland Baptist First Baptist Church. And as more and more African Americans joined, First Baptist set up and started Shiloh for us, the first church was on 14th. Then we moved to East 30th Street. And then we moved here to this location in the ’20s. And I guess from what I understand, there was a big parade when they moved from the 30th up here. And to my knowledge, there’s still one person around who marched in that parade. She’s no longer a member of Shiloh. She’s a member of Fellowship, but she is still around and made that march from 30th up here to this location.

Charles Michael [00:05:48] And I guess originally when they purchased the church in 1924, it was a Jewish synagogue purchased from them. And at that time, the Jewish synagogue was not- Their new one was not finished. So they rented the building for a year from Shiloh until their synagogue was finished.

Sandra Haynes [00:06:20] That Jewish synagogue was the B’nai Jeshurun Synagogue that is now moved to. Well, it’s the Civic now, but it was the Temple on the Heights in Cleveland Heights.

Rich Raponi [00:06:48] I guess next I’d like to focus on the actual church structure, which you just alluded to a little. If you were standing outside looking towards Shiloh, could you describe your impressions of the building?

Charles Michael [00:07:04] I think one of the highlights has been for many years, coming off of the freeway, seeing the golden dome up there, that’s like a landmark. You know, if you look up, look up in the towards the sky, you’ll see the landmark. I mean, you see the beacon of the golden dome. And so you follow the Golden Dome to 55th and Scovill. I think that the structure itself stands out, especially with within this community, as not only as the oldest African American church, but a place that people that are wounded can come for help.

Gloria Richardson [00:08:01] We feel so strongly about that dome that we have a silhouette of it on our bulletin every Sunday. And we are known by that silhouette. It’s the downtown area with Shiloh’s dome in the background. And the other thing that impresses me are the pillars out front and when I was a youngster, I know every nook and cranny of this church because we played there. We were not allowed to, but we did. However, coming up the front steps and seeing those pillars, I felt so small. And it impressed me in later years of God, how great you are. You know, you are the pillar of this church and you’re still holding it up after all these years. And that impresses me, those pillars.

Maxine Brown [00:09:11] I think they’ve expressed everything pretty well.

Rich Raponi [00:09:18] So walking into the church, could you describe your impressions of the interior, what the highlights of the interior is?

Belva Walker [00:09:26] When you walk in and look up at the dome and the glass and how the sun shines through, it’s just a beautiful sight. And then I like looking at the Baptistry above the pulpit area. It’s church.

Charles Michael [00:09:49] And throughout the years, I guess many people throughout Cleveland, even if they weren’t a member of Shiloh, was a place that they wanted to have their wedding or have some special event here at Shiloh, because of the beautiful decor of the building.

Gloria Richardson [00:10:12] I have often seen persons who come into the church for the first time in and out of the city who live here. We had an event a couple of weeks ago. We had the men of Cleveland to sing here. We had people from many churches. And I noticed how they were just staring at the dome and the windows. The windows are very impressive also because they had different Jewish symbols. The Ark of the Covenant, the star of David.

Sandra Haynes [00:10:51] One of the other things that impresses me with the interior as well. This whole structure is how we have been able to maintain. But we have so many of the original things that are still here. The windows, the pews, even in the balcony. These are the same pews that were here when the building was first built back in 1909. I believe it is something like that. But the dome and the glass in the dome is the most impressive, I believe.

Maxine Brown [00:11:29] I like just coming and sitting in the back of the church. Sometimes I will come down here when there’s no one here. I help in the office. And if we are too busy, I’ll go and just sit in the back and just soak up, I guess, the atmosphere, the quietness, the presence of God you can feel when you just sit in there quietly by yourself, look at the windows, think about some of the people that have been here. Think about so many things. That’s, I think, what I like most about being here.

Rich Raponi [00:12:20] Just for some background, could you explain the core beliefs of Baptist faith?

Charles Michael [00:12:29] See, as Baptists, we believe in Jesus Christ. We believe that he died and he arose and that he lives. You know, we believe the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. We, I guess basically, if you look at Methodist or Presbyterian, there’s not really a whole lot difference. You know, the difference probably would be maybe judging with the Catholics. They believe in praying to the Mother Mary. We believe praying right to the Father. We don’t have an intercedent, you know, to pray to. And I think that of course as Baptists, we’re basically independent, whereas we don’t have a council that directs each church. Each church is an individual entity of its own.

Belva Walker [00:13:42] And as Baptists, we believe in baptism by immersion and by personal choice. You don’t baptize babies. When you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, you’re at the age of accountability where you know what you’re doing. And that is one of the- And we baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

Gloria Richardson [00:14:10] One God, one faith, one baptism.

Rich Raponi [00:14:21] In regards to the baptism, when we were in the interior of the church earlier, you said there was a baptismal.

Charles Michael [00:14:27] Yes, it’s up above the podium.

Belva Walker [00:14:31] I pointed to it when we were in there. It’s right above the pulpit.

Charles Michael [00:14:35] In between the two pictures. Yes.

Rich Raponi [00:14:38] Would somebody actually describe the baptismal itself?

Charles Michael [00:14:47] Basically, when one accepts Jesus Christ as their personal savior and then we have what we call a new members class which they go through to actually learn what the church is about. And after they finish that eight week course, then at that time they are eligible to be baptized. Of course, baptism is just an outward show of accepting Christ because once you accept them in your heart, then we feel that you, you’re saved then. But when we go, usually the pastor along with a deacon will take them up to the pool there and we usually have prayer song and then they’re emerged into the water and brought up.

Rich Raponi [00:15:48] How have these beliefs guided the growth of the church and the role the church plays in the community?

Maxine Brown [00:15:57] Say that again, please.

Rich Raponi [00:15:59] The core beliefs of the Baptist faith, how they relate to how they guide the growth of the church itself and the role the church plays in the community.

Charles Michael [00:16:18] We believe first of all that every word of the Bible and believing that we know that for the world the only Bible that they may ever see or read is us. And so by trying to be an example and going out showing them that, that we are different from the average person that does not know Jesus Christ as their savior, that they too will want to be a part of the fellowship. Also we believe that, you know, it’s not about inside of the four walls. We have to go out and show and witness and to, you know, in order for people. People to see us and to bring them in, I think just by our living, that’s a testimony to the goodness of God, because without him, we wouldn’t be here.

Belva Walker [00:17:26] Gloria, can you tell- I understand after we came here during the war and periods years ago, this church had a- They didn’t call them hunger centers, but they- They fed people here. And I mean, this goes on even today. Right now, it’s just once a month that we have. We serve a hot meal to anyone who wants to come in or who needs a meal on the last Saturday of the month. But I understand you two may remember when Shiloh. What did they call them years ago? It wasn’t food kitchen. Food kitchen or something during the war. Of course, I wasn’t here, but they tell me, here’s a picture. Well, this is after we got here. But I understand they’ve always been doing something in the community from.

Gloria Richardson [00:18:25] They gave more or less baskets of food out to families from this church. As you can see, they’re large baskets, and they delivered them or persons came and picked them up. But I think they delivered because I know my mom worked with that area years ago, and they were delivered. This is one of the.

Charles Michael [00:18:56] You know, also during the Hough riots, this church purchased a home for a family that was burned out. And that was- When was it, ’68 or something, around in there.

Gloria Richardson [00:19:13] The Hough riots. After the Hough riots, we assisted many families.

Charles Michael [00:19:21] Right.

Gloria Richardson [00:19:22] We purchased the home.

Charles Michael [00:19:24] Right.

Sandra Haynes [00:19:25] And throughout the years.

Maxine Brown [00:19:27] Excuse me, when the choirs were upstairs, before the chan, before the choir lofts were moved down- [inaudible] 

Charles Michael [00:19:45] It was in the basement, which is now called, like, fellowship hall, used to baptize. That’s where I was baptized at, in the basement.

Rich Raponi [00:19:55] Did the chapel also have a school?

Charles Michael [00:19:58] No, we had a gym.

Maxine Brown [00:19:59] We had a gymnasium and the stage so that. That we used to love to go down there. The Boy Scouts, that’s where the boys Boy Scouts used to meet. And then we put on plays or our Easter pageants or whatever would be staged down there.

Charles Michael [00:20:21] We had basketball team.

Gloria Richardson [00:20:26] Daily vacation, Bible school, Sunday school. We had various departments in the Sunday school, from kindergarten to adult, the primary section, youth section, young adult section, and the seniors. So we did have school, Sunday school.

Rich Raponi [00:20:55] What types of changes has the church seen in the years since you’ve been members? What types of changes has the church seen?

Gloria Richardson [00:21:05] The church itself or- [crosstalk]

Rich Raponi [00:21:08] The building and the congregation changing roles in general.

Charles Michael [00:21:14] I guess, over the years- At one time, this was like a community church because everyone lived in the community that, you know, fellowshipped here. Since that time, people have moved out and so we have very few members actually that live in the community. So that change has happened. I think the focus had to change with the church too because, I mean, when you’re used to everyone living here, you know, so now we have to spread out because people come from Shaker, Beechwood and everywhere else to come to Fellowship Streetsboro. Yeah.

Belva Walker [00:22:07] This style of worship over the years in the African American church, I guess at one time this church probably had what we would sort of call, for want of a better word, high church. You know, anthems, hymns, very sophisticated, so to speak. You notice we have drums now. Years ago you wouldn’t have drums in this church, but the music has changed somewhat and.

Maxine Brown [00:22:45] As.

Belva Walker [00:22:46] And this church has gone through some, as the history calls it, schisms where other churches have gone, have been established because of whatever it was in this church and where once upon a time you couldn’t find a seat in this church, if you got in here, check too much later than 11:05, you couldn’t find a seat. Well, now that is not the case. You can come in. And I understand that’s the way churches are across the country. You don’t have a lot of large churches that are being filled every Sunday with parishioners. And I think I was listening to WCRF once and they said the average church now has approximately 250 people to come every Sunday. That’s average church. Things change over the years. Populations grow and move out and that’s why most churches in the inner city now have to have parking lots because we don’t walk to the church anymore.

Gloria Richardson [00:23:54] In 1960 we saw a need to help our members, so we established a credit union. It was called Shiloh Credit Union and it lasted for 40 years and it merged with another church credit union, which is Antioch Credit Union. In fact, there are about nine churches that merged with Antioch Credit Union. The leaders became ill, etc. But our credit union grew up to $3 million at the time of the merger. And we had in excess of 1,000 members. We helped them. I don’t know whether you know about the workings of a credit union, but it was first established for thrift. And after that we got into loans and we gave loans for various things: funerals, weddings, graduations, college, house repairs, second mortgages, etc. And we were a thriving entity in the church for 40 years.

Maxine Brown [00:25:14] I think one of the primary differences. Differences now, and at the time that Mrs. Richardson and I grew up as teenagers, there was always something going on. I lived in the projects right down the street, as Charles alluded to. Everybody. A lot of the members lived relatively close to the church so that you could walk. I was here, I know, at least four days. We’re doing something. If it was nothing but hanging out in the gym. But now our membership has changed. I think we’re in older membership so that some of these things don’t happen anymore. And we are hoping and praying that now that we have a young minister who is very community oriented will bring some of the young people back in. So the young. We can still do those. Some of the things that we did before.

Charles Michael [00:26:14] You know, another change, too, I can remember when I was little that the custodian lived here and we had the coal furnace. And so someone had to be here around the clock in order to keep the coal in the furnace, to keep the building warm. And so now you don’t have that problem. You set the temperature to either come on or off, and the building is warm. But that was one of the things that.

Gloria Richardson [00:26:52] I chuckled when he said that, because after Sunday school and before church, there were a group of us who would go down to the custodian suite and eat his fried chicken. Every Sunday he cooked fried chicken and whatever else he cooked. And he cooked enough for all of the kids because he knew we were coming to say, Mr. Jack, could we have a piece of your chicken? And he would freely give it to us. And it was delicious.

Charles Michael [00:27:23] Not only that, even during the week, on Tuesday was missionary society meeting. And my mother was very active in the missionary society, along with Mrs. Richardson’s mother. And when we came down, my mother would leave me with Mr. Jackson and go to the meeting, you know. And of course, today, you know, you would think twice about doing something like that. But it was just- That was the type of trust and the type of closeness, you know, that you had then.

Gloria Richardson [00:27:59] And Mr. Jack never told on us. When we went downstairs after Sunday, we had a gymnasium downstairs, and we had horses and all kinds of ropes. We used to play on the horses and swing like Tarzan and do everything down there. He was never told. Not only that, but we would go out the side door and go over to the House of Wills, which was an established funeral home. And we would view everybody, everybody that was in state. And then we had the gall to sign the register because we wanted the person to have many signatures to let people know that someone cared about that person.

Sandra Haynes [00:28:47] That’s nice.

Gloria Richardson [00:28:48] Tell us.

Sandra Haynes [00:28:49] Nice.

Belva Walker [00:28:51] But remember, Ms. Mack told us once that she and several of her friends used to come in church right after Sunday school and sit there. And she said, we would sit there and this church got filled, and then we would sell our seats. I send you. I send this message, I can’t believe you did that. She said, yes, we did. People wanted our seats, and we knew we could sell our seats. The kids will do things like that and get away with it. I’m gonna have to run, but you’re in good hands with these seasoned- [others laugh]

Rich Raponi [00:29:28] Thank you very much.

Belva Walker [00:29:30] To the nursing home. Good to meet you.

Rich Raponi [00:29:47] The next question I was gonna- Just recently the Reverend who had been with the church for a very long time has left the church. Could you explain his role in Blessed?

Charles Michael [00:30:02] Well, just recently, matter of fact, the pastor that we have now, Reverend Corey C. Jenkins, he just celebrated his first year as pastor of the church. We were without a pastor for three years, and so we were blessed to- He’s the youngest, I guess, probably pastor that has served the Shiloh congregation. He was 28 years old when he came. He’s 20, but 29 now. And so, of course, he brings new ideas. And so we’re excited and looking forward to what the future holds. And I think also, too, one of the things that he brings is the teaching style of ministry, traditionally, especially the Baptist church. In the African American Baptist Church, it’s been more a lot of emotion. But he brings that teaching style that when you leave, you have something to go with for the rest of the week that you know what’s been said and you understand and you’re going home looking it up, you know, to. And it just makes, I think, for better worship because you’re gaining knowledge. It’s not, you know, waiting till Wednesday for Bible study or just for Sunday school.

Rich Raponi [00:31:49] How has the neighborhood surrounding the church changed over the years?

Gloria Richardson [00:31:57] Well, we used to have a little ice cream store next to the church instead of this parking lot. That’s one thing that I remember after Sunday school, going to the ice cream store. Also, schools have come up in the area. There used to be houses in this area, families with houses. Now we have apartments, and they have rebuilt it recently and put up more houses. There is a school that’s in the community. I’m trying to remember was Dyke. Dyke was there all the time nearby. Yeah, the school was there, and it just. We didn’t remember. But our church has been in partnership with Dyke Elementary School and East Technical High School, and we have groups who go to the schools, do service work for both schools. Our educational board had a program going with Dyke elementary school. And it was an attendance incentive program going to encourage the young people to come to school daily. It went very well. Also, the credit union from our church had a banking program with Dyke Elementary School. And the children had passbooks and they started in September. And Maxine and I went up as tellers on Fridays and they could. They had to bring at least a dime and deposit was the most rewarding experience I have ever had to see those youngsters learn to save money and deposit it in a bank account and have a passbook and look at what they had done. However, in June, we returned the money to the children so they had their money back, but they would do it every September. And that was just phenomenal.

Maxine Brown [00:34:13] And in addition to that, we had students at the school assist us as tellers. They’d be runners, go get the various classes when it was their turn to bank. And then when we were through banking, we would have them do some of the reconciliation of the accounts to be sure that what. And it was a good math lesson. They’d add up what the amounts we had taken on paper and then we’d have them help us count the money to see that the two coincided, which was a very good learning lesson for them, I think. And then on. We only did it once, but generally we’d go down there at the end of the school year and give the kids their money. One year we had them come to the church by class and withdraw their money. And we had television coverage and we had men on the streets watching the kids from 61st all the way up here. And it was just a beautiful thing. And we served them refreshments and it was just great. I think that was one of my favorite things that I’ve done at Shiloh and I’ve done a lot of them.

Sandra Haynes [00:35:48] Now we. Ms. Richardson mentioned the incentive program that we did. What would happen every month, the class that had the most students to come to class every month we would give them a pizza party. And that was a big thing. And you would have. The classes were competing with each other because they wanted that pizza every month. But now what we do is.

Sandra Haynes [00:36:18] We Have an annual back-to-school rally where we get the school supplies to the kids in the community. And that has really increased over the years. And we now have about. Well, this year we’re planning for about 400 kids. So.

Gloria Richardson [00:36:35] Elaborate on the rally. Elaborate on the rally.

Sandra Haynes [00:36:40] We have a lot of different activities. We have the- We get the church involved early, have them to start bringing school supplies in like a month before the rally and we prepare the bag by grade level. So we have some for elementary, middle school and high school students. And it’s a big fair-like atmosphere. We have food, of course, and then we have different activities. We have a clowns. The fire department comes and motorcycle club. We have- The zoo comes out. So it’s a big event this year. We’re going to block off the street. So it’s going to be really a big activity.

Charles Michael [00:37:34] Then you have people from the city, the health department.

Sandra Haynes [00:37:39] Mm hm. It’s a big event that we have each year so. This is year we’re even going to have the Euclid car this year. I can’t remember what it’s called. From Euclid Park. They’re coming this year to take- The bullet- The rocket car. The rocket car is going to be here this year. So it’s going to be very exciting for the kids because one of the things we want to make sure that the kids in the community experience some of the activities that maybe our kids out in the inner city, you know, out in the suburbs, have an opportunity to do anytime. And our bags are usually filled with supplies that could last probably at least a semester because we really fill them up so that they have the supplies and tools that they need.

Ken Valore [00:38:45] Just out of curiosity, how large is your church population?

Charles Michael [00:38:54] It’s about 200 now.

Ken Valore [00:38:57] And that’s from suburbs and-

Charles Michael [00:39:01] Right.

Ken Valore [00:39:03] And when you guys were here-

Sandra Haynes [00:39:08] [crosstalk] It was like 3,000. I see the picture. I think at one time the population had gotten up to 5,000- [crosstalk] 

Charles Michael [00:39:17] But I know when I was little it was probably around 3,000 because there were- On Sunday, people would be standing all the way around the walls. 

Maxine Brown [00:39:27] And the balcony would have always be full. And like someone said, if you weren’t here by a certain time, you’d have to buy your seat.

Charles Michael [00:39:38] And I guess, you know, if you look now, if you get 800 people, the parking lot here between us and Wills is full. The street is full. At that time, you have at 3,000. We didn’t have the parking lot back here. You didn’t have the parking lot over there. And yet still you were able to.

Maxine Brown [00:40:01] ave as many people driving.

Charles Michael [00:40:03] Right, But I’m just saying, that’s what I’m saying. You were able to accommodate the people, you know, and so now if we have a crowd like that, we have to use East Tech’s parking lot. You know, it just makes a big difference now with everyone’s coming from different areas. Also back then, the East Tech was across the street, was in front of Shiloh, and there was a gas station where East Tech is now. And then there was where the parking lot on the other side between Wills and Shiloh. There was an O’Henry’s there, which is something like a McDonald’s, that was there. And then after that, the parking lot was put in.

Gloria Richardson [00:40:48] And then we had many events at Shiloh to bring people to church or to come to many events. We have had Dr. Martin Luther King here, the Reverend Jesse Jackson, man out of Pennsylvania, Mel Good.

Sandra Haynes [00:41:16] Angela Brooks from the United Nations when she was here. We’ve had many distinguished people have been here to Shiloh.

Charles Michael [00:41:26] Matter of fact, Dr. King, his last trip to Cleveland was here, right here, preached here.

Gloria Richardson [00:41:34] First Black mayor was here. We had what we called an International tea. And we had that International tea every year. And each group from our church depicted various countries, nations, etc. And we dressed in the native costume. We cook those foods from that country. We went to libraries. We went to persons here who lived in the greater Cleveland area who were of that nationality and got recipes. And we interacted with many people to put this on, to let people see all the different cultures and people of the world. And we would have various speakers to come in various singing groups. We’ve had Ohio State’s choir here during that time, the Singing Angels, et cetera, and different narrators. But we’ve had thousands of people here from all over all walks of life to come and witness that yearly. And it was really a good fellowship for all of us in a good learning experience. And I said, oh, they ate this, you know, but it was tasty.

Ken Valore [00:43:05] Do you have the common thing where for Easter or Christmas you get more people coming?

Gloria Richardson [00:43:12] Yes.

Ken Valore [00:43:13] You get an overflow crowd?

Maxine Brown [00:43:15] We have- [crosstalk]

Gloria Richardson [00:43:16] Joe would always say Merry Christmas to them at Eastertime. [others laugh]

Sandra Haynes [00:43:23] [crosstalk] Or Mother’s Day.

Maxine Brown [00:43:24] Everybody becomes a CME. And that’s Christmas, Mother’s Day, and Easter instead of the traditional things that you think, CME, it generally means something Methodist Episcopal. But everybody becomes a CME on those three days.

Ken Valore [00:43:46] I think that’s kind of-

Maxine Brown [00:43:48] Yeah, that’s pretty standard.

Gloria Richardson [00:43:50] Yeah.

Charles Michael [00:43:51] Father’s Day gets, just gets left out, I guess.

Ken Valore [00:44:00] Well, I don’t really have any other. I think you covered it pretty well. And you guys, with your memories, I mean. That’s basically what we’re looking for, is we’re looking for your memories about the church and how important it is. And I wish you’d be luck that your pastor can get some younger people.

Sandra Haynes [00:44:31] Yeah, that’s what we’re praying for, definitely.

Charles Michael [00:44:40] I guess, you know, when you speak about importance with everyone moving away from the church. And there’s a church. I mean, we pass hundreds of churches on our way to Shiloh. But because of our love for this church, we’re willing to make that sacrifice. In the wintertime, it may take an hour or something, you know, sometimes, but it’s, you know, the distance means nothing, because this is our home. This is what we love.

Sandra Haynes [00:45:14] And one of the things about Shiloh, and I’m sure it’s with many congregations, no matter what you go through, we’re still going to be there. We’re still for each other because we care not only about not only the church, but our members, which, you know, we’re going to be there for you. The love that we have for each other, it’s always there, no matter what. I think that’s always. I’ve always said that’s that common ground, that no matter what’s going on, if somebody gets into whatever, we’re going to be there to support them and lift them up and that type of thing. But, yeah, just like a family. Right.

Maxine Brown [00:46:00] Well, Mrs. Walker mentioned earlier that there had been schisms. We had one approximately six years ago. But of course, there are so many people that all of us have grown up together, so that if there’s a wedding, if there’s a funeral, if there’s anything, it’s just like those people have never left Shiloh. They’re right back here, and we’re all just like this.

Sandra Haynes [00:46:29] But one of the things, too, when we were talking about going out into the community and doing things, I can remember when I first came to Shiloh, one of the things that we used to do was go to the juvenile home. We would take things. And I know the missionaries used to do that. And for whatever reason, I went, I think, a couple of times, because they would bake the cookies and have different packages to take to the young people down at the juvenile. And that’s one of the things that I remember doing so many times and really enjoyed it. And we’ve also, when there’s been a crisis or even in other countries and that. That we’ve always tried to step up to the plate in mission to do for other countries by sending things to whatever is needed financially.

Gloria Richardson [00:47:27] I remember when she said how the missionaries did. My mom was a missionary, and I remember all of the little ladies getting together in the missionary society. And they all made things. They would make lamp robes.

Sandra Haynes [00:47:41] That’s what they were.

Gloria Richardson [00:47:42] Yeah, lamp robes. And they would make- They made Depends. They didn’t buy Depends. They made them back then. And My mom would take us with her. And I remember going to the mental institution and the missionaries would go in there and they would say, see these people at least twice a month. And there was a woman who always said to me, hi, little girl. I love to see little girls. I’m going home next week. I won’t see you. But she would tell me that every week. And I didn’t understand why she was still there. But those things I remember, and I guess that’s why I have a compassion to really go out and touch and reach now. But I think about how we’re still doing that because this pastor has us to go out on Thanksgiving and invite all of the people in the community, go to the shelters and ask the people from the shelters to come in and eat. And we feed them. So they’re coming to us. We’re trying to get them in rather than us. How we used to, you know, go out so much to the middle instant institutions, the hospitals, the children’s homes. That’s what we called them then.

Charles Michael [00:49:01] Also, you remember, even before the International Tea, the Missionary Society used to have what they call a trip around the world. They would go from. You may have ten houses, and you would go to each house and they would have food prepared and you would sample the food. Food and leave there and go to the next house. And, you know, and so it was just always a fellowship. And food is the common denominator that brings people together. You know, not only do we worship with, but we with the Methodist. We. The choir has with the Methodist Church. The oldest African Methodist church.

Sandra Haynes [00:49:50] Well, it’s the oldest Black church in-

Charles Michael [00:49:52] Yeah, it’s like 170, 75 years old.

Sandra Haynes [00:49:56] St. John- [crosstalk] East 40th. It’s the oldest, oldest Black church in Cleveland. And we are the oldest Baptist church in Cleveland.

Charles Michael [00:50:10] And then recently we fellowshipped with the Jewish synagogue. What’s that on Fairmount? [crosstalk] Fairmount, yes.

Sandra Haynes [00:50:26] For their seder.

Ken Valore [00:50:28] You mentioned for three years you were without a pastor. How did you- Who did the-

Charles Michael [00:50:35] We had an associate minister that was here, and then we had visiting ministers that would come in every Sunday, you know. And of course, though, that’s, you know, that can be rough. You know, unfortunately, during that period, you know, without a pastor, people will leave and visit, you know, so we were like in the rebuilding stage again.

Ken Valore [00:51:02] [inaudible]

Sandra Haynes [00:51:04] It was. [others laugh]

Ken Valore [00:51:10] Do you recruit your pastors?

Charles Michael [00:51:12] Yeah, we have what we call a search committee that is formed. And that committee will- We had announcements in the National Baptist Convention’s website, the Plain Dealer, and ministers will send their resume in. We go over their resume. And if it, you know, if it fits the criteria that we had set up, then we invite them to come to as a candidate to do morning worship interview and that. So it was a long process.

Ken Valore [00:52:04] Do you guys have anything else you’d like to comment on? This is basically your interview. [others laugh]

Sandra Haynes [00:52:20] Do you have any questions of us.

Rich Raponi [00:52:23] I’m sorry, just one for a clarification, for a timeline. You said at one point the congregation was up to 3,000 members [crosstalk]. Yeah, about what, when, when did the membership start declining and to what do you attribute?

Charles Michael [00:52:39] Probably, what, in the ’80s?

Maxine Brown [00:52:40] Probably ’80s. [crosstalk]

Gloria Richardson [00:52:43] No, I think it was a little before that when it started declining. I’d say the ’70s. We were probably at our highest membership in ’40s and ’50s.

Charles Michael [00:52:57] But even, [crosstalk] even in the ’60s.

Sandra Haynes [00:53:00] In the ’60s and ’70s, [crosstalk] because I think that it started declining.

Charles Michael [00:53:05] But I think after, if you probably look at it, after the riots is when people started leaving the city and more or less moving to the suburbs and that. And you know, churches start popping up in the suburbs and people going, I’m not driving all the way back down.

Gloria Richardson [00:53:29] The inner-city churches suffered. We’re not the only ones.

Sandra Haynes [00:53:33] Oh no, all over.

Gloria Richardson [00:53:36] It’s all over. I have gone to visit the older churches in this area and on Sunday mornings, it isn’t the same. It just isn’t.

Charles Michael [00:53:51] I think that this church as well as other older churches still maintain some type of tradition. You have younger churches that are non denominational churches that are, that are springing up and which have, you know, just a total of different type of worship. And that’s kind of drawing, you know, a lot of the younger people. But I think that there is, there’s a lot to be said for, for having a church that has structure and tradition. You know.

Gloria Richardson [00:54:34] To show you how established we are and how old we are and how much we’re thought of some of these sitcoms on TV. People who grew up in the Greater Cleveland area mention Shiloh Baptist Church.

Sandra Haynes [00:54:51] Yes, they do.

Gloria Richardson [00:54:52] And I was thinking, telling my husband one day, I said, you know, I’m going to write them and ask for a donation. [crosstalk]

Sandra Haynes [00:54:59] Every time they mention it.

Gloria Richardson [00:55:04] Says, I want to get married at Shiloh Baptist Church in Cleveland, Ohio. We’re a landmark. That’s it.

Sandra Haynes [00:55:13] Yeah, we are a historical, national and city, landmark.

Charles Michael [00:55:19] Yeah. What was that one show that was on his, the guy’s Grandma Living Singles.

Gloria Richardson [00:55:25] Was that his, Living Singles?

Sandra Haynes [00:55:27] One of them, yeah, that I can’t remember. I can see his grandmother. His grandmother was a member here or something. Yeah.

Gloria Richardson [00:55:34] Hall, was it Hall? Arsenio Hall?

Sandra Haynes [00:55:38] Oh, yeah, [crosstalk] Arsenio Hall had mentioned it.

Maxine Brown [00:55:41] But you’re thinking of- [crosstalk] It’s another.

Sandra Haynes [00:55:45] It starts with the H. [crosstalk] Yeah. Henson. Henson, I think that’s his name, but his grandma. And he talks about Shiloh and Dorothy Dandridge. Her grandfather was one of the ministers here.

Gloria Richardson [00:56:05] The movie actress.

Sandra Haynes [00:56:06] The movie actress, yeah. Dorothy Dandridge. He wouldn’t know. But you’ve heard of her. But anyway, he was one of the ministers here. In fact, she even mentions it. Well, yeah. In her book. It’s mentioned the life of Dorothy Dandridge. Shiloh is mentioned in that.

Rich Raponi [00:56:35] Thank you so much for- [crosstalk]

Charles Michael [00:56:37] Thank you for-

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