Abstract
Leroy Cowans moved from Columbus to Cleveland as a young child in the late 1930s, living first in the Central area and then in Glenville. During World War II, he lived in a foster home while his mother worked long hours in a factory. He discusses life on Cleveland’s east side in the 1940s-60s as well as the Glenville uprising of 1968.
Interviewee
Cowans, Leroy (Interviewee)
Interviewer
Downer, Nick (Interviewer)
Project
Cedar Central
Date
3-25-2013
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
53 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Leroy Cowans Interview, 25 March 2013" (2013). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 131007.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/624
Transcript
Nick Downer [00:00:35] Ah, there we go. Ah, we got it. Sorry about that. All right, so for the record.
Leroy Cowans [00:00:41] My name is Leroy Cowans.
Nick Downer [00:00:43] That’s perfect. And where were you born?
Leroy Cowans [00:00:45] Columbus, Ohio.
Nick Downer [00:00:47] And what year was that?
Leroy Cowans [00:00:49] 1936. September…
Nick Downer [00:00:54] Perfect. And where in Columbus were you, Barney?
Leroy Cowans [00:00:59] Mercy Hospital.
Nick Downer [00:01:00] Which hospital?
Leroy Cowans [00:01:01] Mercy Hospital. So Ohio State campus.
Nick Downer [00:01:05] Oh, Nice. And when did you move up to Cleveland?
Leroy Cowans [00:01:07] I was around three or four years old when my mother got married.
Nick Downer [00:01:12] And where’d you move from there?
Leroy Cowans [00:01:15] Well, from we lived on Cedar Avenue, about 71st. And then we moved to Glenville. And then that was it. Last place I lived was in Glenville.
Nick Downer [00:01:29] Okay. And then now you’re at the Skyline Towers, which is in Central. And when did you move to here?
Leroy Cowans [00:01:36] Oh, when I was in- When I was homeless, I had disabled homeless on 17th, and Payne. And then my social worker wanted to get me housing. Then she got my housing here. Lapeka. That’s what it was called then. But I didn’t have any furniture. But then I found they had an apartment that had the original furniture in it. There’s a couch, a chair, everything. So I moved in.
Nick Downer [00:02:01] Okay, and what memories do you- Do you have any memories of Central when you were growing up? Did you ever come down here?
Leroy Cowans [00:02:09] Well, just my territory. I mean, we lived on Cedar Avenue and 73rd, and I was in Giddings Elementary School. It was okay. Yeah.
Nick Downer [00:02:21] What do you remember about it?
Leroy Cowans [00:02:24] It was integrated only by stores. The store owners were white and the patrons were black. Was it.
Nick Downer [00:02:34] No white people lived in the neighborhood?
Leroy Cowans [00:02:36] No. But you- 71st cuts clean cloth going off into St. Clair. Now, you get to Chester, then you got Europeans, you got the Polish, Czechs, like that. And then on this side was the doggone, the black people.
Nick Downer [00:03:00] And that stayed true the whole time you were here?
Leroy Cowans [00:03:03] Well, during the time I was in high school, yes. Right. Cause when I graduated from high school, those last of the white kids, they did not integrate the Glenville there.
Nick Downer [00:03:17] So you lived on 71st?
Leroy Cowans [00:03:20] 70? No, I lived on 70- Well, during World War two, my mother’s husband went to the service. And she was permitted to work long hours in the factory. So she needed somebody to take care of me during those times. So I lived in a semi-foster home. Now the minister and his wife on 71st and Carnegie, being patriotic, said we would take the kids in. Look after your kids for 24/7, which they did. My mother lived on 73rd and Cedar, and I lived on 71st and Carnegie.
Nick Downer [00:03:51] So what kind of stores were there around there then?
Leroy Cowans [00:03:55] Plenty of stores. Well, it was a neighborhood. Yeah. You had every doggone thing in the neighborhood. You had grocery stores, you had hardware stores, you had drug stores. And downtown Cleveland was the big hub. You were downtown Cleveland. That was it. The market was downtown Cleveland. Everything was downtown Cleveland. The biggest mall was downtown Cleveland. All the major stores, all the major shopping centers, everything, downtown Cleveland.
Nick Downer [00:04:22] So, what did, like, when you were in high school, what did you guys do for fun? Where’d you go?
Leroy Cowans [00:04:27] High school? Well, I wasn’t very extroverted. I didn’t socialize too much. Okay? And never did too much. Other kids did. They did their thing. I played football with my teammates for three years. Well, never invited to any parties like that because I was introverted, you know? Didn’t mess around.
Nick Downer [00:04:51] So where did the other kids go? Do you remember where they would talk about going?
Leroy Cowans [00:04:54] No. I never asked them?
Nick Downer [00:04:55] No?
Leroy Cowans [00:04:56] No.
Nick Downer [00:04:58] What was the- What was the foster home like?
Leroy Cowans [00:05:01] Minister and his wife? Beautiful. Now that was- This is personal between you and me. My parents did nothing but fight each other for 23 years. My mother got pregnant two times by him, and she aborted both kids. I am an illegitimate born child. My parents are dark skinned and I’m light skinned. That’s it.
Nick Downer [00:05:31] That’s fine. I mean, but there were other kids in the foster home?
Leroy Cowans [00:05:36] No. Oh, yes. There was two girls and another boy.
Nick Downer [00:05:38] What were they like?
Leroy Cowans [00:05:40] Oh, yeah, it was nice.
Nick Downer [00:05:41] Yeah, it was nice.
Leroy Cowans [00:05:42] Yeah.
Nick Downer [00:05:44] That’S cool. And so then you said your mother’s husband went to the service during World War two?
Leroy Cowans [00:05:50] World War Two, yes.
Nick Downer [00:05:51] And did your mom have a job?
Leroy Cowans [00:05:53] Yes, it was. They gave a chance of the women of color to work in the factories then. 10 hours a day.
Nick Downer [00:05:59] Do you remember where she worked?
Leroy Cowans [00:06:01] No. Cause I lived on 71st and Carnegie, and she lived on 73rd and Cedar.
Nick Downer [00:06:07] Right. And then, so what happened after you graduated high school? Where’d you go from there?
Leroy Cowans [00:06:14] Oh, well, I went to Ohio State.
Nick Downer [00:06:17] Okay. And what’d you do then?
Leroy Cowans [00:06:21] Well, I wanted to be a teacher like elementary school teacher kept me going to the street named Mrs. Murphy. She was elementary school teacher and she was- She liked kids. That’s what I wanted to be, a teacher. And Mrs. Murphy, she was really nice, so I wanted to be a teacher like she was.
Nick Downer [00:06:41] Great. Did that end up happening? Did you get-
Leroy Cowans [00:06:43] No, I didn’t make it. I just stayed there two years. Freshman and sophomore year.
Nick Downer [00:06:48] Did you have a good time there? Did you like it?
Leroy Cowans [00:06:50] My social life was zero, zero, zero. Yeah.
Nick Downer [00:06:54] What about the school? Did you like the school?
Leroy Cowasn [00:06:55] I liked the school.
Nick Downer [00:06:56] Yeah?
Leroy Cowans [00:06:57] Yeah.
Nick Downer [00:06:58] Makes sense. So what was- What did the neighborhood look like when you were growing up here in Central? I mean, you know, like big buildings, because now, I mean, you know, it’s mostly the project. It’s changed a lot.
Leroy Cowans [00:07:12] Well, a long time ago in my [inaudible], we had street lights. Got the light from the doggone streets. Not from these doggone light posts. That’s a long time ago. Then they changed over to light posts. Okay?
Nick Downer [00:07:28] So do you remember, you know, on each of those main streets, it was just stores on each side all the way?
Leroy Cowans [00:07:34] Oh, yes. Well, it was a good- [inaudible] community. We had drug stores. We had grocery stores. We had pharmacies and hardwares.
Nick Downer [00:07:41] Did you feel like everybody knew each other?
Leroy Cowans [00:07:43] Oh, yeah. Well, you did. That’s right.
Nick Downer [00:07:45] So, you know, you would go, you would walk down your street and you’d know everybody, or what? right?
Leroy Cowans [00:07:49] Right. Just about. Yeah.
Nick Downer [00:07:51] That’s pretty cool. What do you think about how the neighborhood has changed?
Leroy Cowans [00:07:56] Well, you have to admit, some people coming in the neighborhood want to be riffraff. When I moved into Glenville, it was a nice neighborhood. You can leave your bike up underneath the house and nobody would steal it. But the riffraff started moving in, you could not lay a bike up against the house, and they would steal it.
Nick Downer [00:08:18] Yeah. Do you remember before the housing projects were put up there?
Leroy Cowans [00:08:23] Well, I was here when housing projects put on 55th and Central.
Nick Downer [00:08:27] Yeah?
Leroy Cowans [00:08:27] Yeah.
Nick Downer [00:08:29] Do you remember that changing the community a lot?
Leroy Cowans [00:08:31] Well, the people didn’t have that much money, and they get, the city gave them housing, you know, cheaper rent. Why not? It was nice.
Nick Downer [00:08:41] That’s nice. Would you say it’s gone downhill over time, though?
Leroy Cowans [00:08:45] No, it goes down. It’s the people that move in. Right. That’s all.
Nick Downer [00:08:51] That makes sense. What about the college? Do you remember before the college was down there?
Leroy Cowans [00:08:56] Well, in my day, it was no such thing as Community College and Cleveland State.
Nick Downer [00:09:01] Right.
Leroy Cowans [00:09:02] All right? There’s only Akron, Columbus. Thank you. But then they changed it over. Only thing I don’t like about charter schools, the board of education did a bad job doing the job by keeping the doggone public schools open. You understand? When I was a grown man and had kids, I lived on 117th and Wade Park. They were going to close the elementary school, 115th Street. So I moved there to 124th and St. Clair, and my kids were going to elementary school there, and they were going to close that school. They want to make magnet schools. I said what? Elementary school, junior high school and high school. Didn’t make sense.
Nick Downer [00:09:51] What was that neighborhood like, 117th and Wade Park?
Leroy Cowans [00:09:54] It was nice neighborhood, before Western Reserve wanted part of it.
Nick Downer [00:10:01] Do you remember how that all changed, too, that whole University Circle area, ’cause thats-?
Leroy Cowans [00:10:05] Well, politics is bad. Y’all gonna say they came on, the councilman came on the thing that they’re gonna improve the doggone neighborhood by basketball courts and softball diamonds. And we voted for and made that change. Then when they did make that change, found out there was no doggone basketball courts and no doggone baseball diamonds. They cordoned it off. It’s Western Reserve soccer field. That’s what it turned into. Now, you go up on Wade Park, they knocked out all of 118th Street, half, all of 117th Street, half of 115th Street. Made it Western Reserve.
Nick Downer [00:10:47] But they told- They told you guys living in the community that it was going to be basketball courts and softball?
Leroy Cowans [00:10:51] Yes, they did. Just like the Ohio Lottery supposed to be for education. Only one third of that money is going for education. Okay?
Nick Downer [00:11:04] Was there- So you said there was stuff all up and down. There was- I’ve been hearing there’s like, there was a Schwinn bicycle shop. Do you remember that at all?
Leroy Cowans [00:11:13] No, not in this neighborhood.
Nick Downer [00:11:14] No?
Leroy Cowans [00:11:15] I’ve been out on bicycles in a long time.
Nick Downer [00:11:19] Not even when you were growing up? No?
Leroy Cowans [00:11:20] I had one bicycle, yes.
Nick Downer [00:11:24] That’s a good way to get around.
Leroy Cowans [00:11:26] That was the best way to get around. I went all over the city with that bicycle.
Nick Downer [00:11:33] What about public transportation, the buses and stuff?
Leroy Cowans [00:11:36] Now you’re getting down to it. You know, when they had the loop bus in here, [it] serviced Community College, the elementary school on 30th Street, and Cleveland State. All the students would get on a loop bus and go up there. But they cut out the loop bus. Them buses, 14, 15, are crowded like sardines in a can. During the school year. After the summer vacation, all that stuff, then it thins out. But, ooh, it’s bad.
Nick Downer [00:12:06] When was that when this loop bus was here?
Leroy Cowans [00:12:09] Loop bus? Yeah, loop bus was here.
Nick Downer [00:12:11] When? What years?
Leroy Cowans [00:12:12] Ooh, first three years that I came here, from 19- 2000 to 2003. All of a sudden, they cut it out. We had a bus that went from Quincy all the way to the west side, 35. Then they cut that out. They cut out to 20B and only 20A, 51. Downtown square.
Nick Downer [00:12:40] Do you remember what were- There were streetcars back in when you were growing up.
Leroy Cowans [00:12:45] Yeah, yeah.
Nick Downer [00:12:46] What do you remember about those?
Leroy Cowans [00:12:48] They’re pretty good, but the community was taken care of. You had buses, crosstown buses going then on Superior, St. Clair, Euclid. Yeah, it was nice.
Nick Downer [00:13:01] You said the community was taken care of. You feel like it’s not being taken care of as much anymore?
Leroy Cowans [00:13:05] No. Well, young man, downtown Cleveland is taken care of, but not the communities. That’s why you here. Central program community, they’re not taking care of it, see? But it means away from downtown Cleveland - you got a trolley down there, you don’t even have to pay money to get on that doggone trolley, right? I said, but then if you want to go downtown Cleveland and go the other side of downtown, you gotta go all the way downtown, transfer another bus and go down where you wanna go.
Nick Downer [00:13:38] So what would you like to see then happening in Central, you know?
Leroy Cowans [00:13:43] Well, Central bus was cut out. People on Central Avenue had to either go to Cedar Avenue or Quincy. Yeah. All you had to do, the girls, young men, young kids, get out of the doggone elementary school, get on the doggone loop bus, either go to doggone Quincy or Community College and get on that bus, or go on the doggone Central bus or Cedar bus and go that way. It’s the same thing on the west side. You used to have community buses on the west side but they cut them out too. They cut down on, what, costs?
Nick Downer [00:14:19] So, like right now, you were talking about you wanted to take the loop bus. You make it out to the convenience store. Where’s the closest place-
Leroy Cowans [00:14:27] Off of 28th and Cedar. I can take the doggone loop bus that goes down to doggone 30th Street, make a lefthand turn all the way down going towards Euclid Avenue. I get off on Cedar Avenue, go straight to the doggone store. I do not have to pay anybody to go to the store for me, I said, but then, right where it is now, a young lady just today went to the store for me. And if she don’t get a ride, she has to walk through them projects, and walking through them projects is not too cool in the summertime.
Nick Downer [00:15:02] Do you remember anything about- Were you ever a church man? You go to church?
Leroy Cowans [00:15:08] No, [inaudible] on me on that. Religion. The biggest scandal in the United States is the Catholic Church. I’m not against the Catholic Church, but against Catholic priests having sex with boys. Biggest scandal in the United States. [inaudible]
Nick Downer [00:15:40] Did you say that the foster home you lived with, they were- Did you say they were a minister? Is that true?
Leroy Cowans [00:15:44] Yes. They raised two kids. The reason why we got in there, because they had raised a daughter and son. They moved out and then help during World War Two. Then all the black women had jobs to work eight or 10 hours or more. Then they took us in. It was two girls and two boys. That was the best house I lived in. Yeah.
Nick Downer [00:16:03] Where did they go to church?
Leroy Cowans [00:16:07] St. Timothy Baptist Church on 71st and Carnegie. It was a historical doggone church, parish house right next door. I never entered that church nor ever into that house.
Nick Downer [00:16:20] When you were growing up, was there a lot of people who did go to church all the time?
Leroy Cowans [00:16:25] You know what’s strange is the people that lived in the neighborhood did not go to that church. The people who were members of the doggone church lived in Glenville. Surprisingly, they did.
Nick Downer [00:16:36] Is that because the people in Glenville had more money and it was like a nicer church, or what was- Why was that?
Leroy Cowans [00:16:41] I don’t know, but the only reason the doggone people came to the church were during holidays like Easter, Christmas, Thanksgiving. That’s when they came to church.
Nick Downer [00:16:54] What kind of restaurants do you remember from around here?
Leroy Cowans [00:16:57] Oh, good God, yes. Well, a long time ago, you had a lot of restaurants on 55th from Woodland all the way down to Cedar. And there was nice places that you go to for restaurants. Downtown Cleveland, the Forum. That was the best restaurant down there for everybody. No matter who you are, Black and White, that was the best restaurant. It was better than McDonald’s, better than Wendy’s. He had home-cooked meals cooked by Black chefs as well as Whites. But they changed that into insurance company, Blue Shield, Blue Cross.
Nick Downer [00:17:33] Where was that at?
Leroy Cowans [00:17:36] 9th Street.
Nick Downer [00:17:39] What about the restaurants around here? What kind of food were they served?
Leroy Cowans [00:17:42] Restaurants around here? Most of them were on 55th Street or downtown. But on campus we can call and they will deliver food right here. Pizzas and anything you want.
Nick Downer [00:17:54] Yeah, what kind of food? Pizzas? What other stuff?
Leroy Cowans [00:17:58] Well, you got, on Carnegie you got Wendy’s, McDonald’s, everything right there. Carnegie, 30th Street. Now, one of them you call up there and you get delivered, they will bring the doggone food to you. Chinese restaurants will bring the food to you. Okay.
Nick Downer [00:18:27] Most of those are gone now?
Leroy Cowans [00:18:28] Hmm?
Nick Downer [00:18:28] Most of those stores are gone? Restaurants?
Leroy Cowans [00:18:32] Well, in this neighborhood, yes. You gotta go downtown now. They’re getting the restaurants downtown. Man, they’re building up Fourth Street. They’re building up Prospect. But in my day, you can go downtown to a supermarket. You don’t have a supermarket. Now Dave’s located on 40 Street. That’s a good supermarket. But the store on 28th Street, they don’t have any vegetables or stuff like that.
Nick Downer [00:18:57] Would you like, I mean, you probably- You would like it if you get vegetables and stuff like that.
Leroy Cowans [00:19:01] No, I’m not a cooking man. I eat out of a can.
Nick Downer [00:19:03] Yeah. That’s cool. What about, you know, when you were living with the minister in the foster home, what kind of stuff did you do? I mean, did they just take care of you? Did they make you do things? You know, did they make you go to church?
Leroy Cowans [00:19:19] They were very good people. Reverend Lyons and his wife are very good people. They treat us like family. We was one of the Lyons kids. See, corporal punishment when we stepped out of line. But we were supposed to live up to the minister and his wife’s standards of living. She was a nice woman, and they did pretty good. When the minister died, going to a convention in the South, that was a sad day for me because I had to go back to my mother. The girls had to go back to their mothers.
Nick Downer [00:19:51] When did the minister die?
Leroy Cowans [00:19:52] He went down to the southern [inaudible] conference in the heat down there and he died.
Nick Downer [00:19:57] In what year?
Leroy Cowans [00:19:58] Ooh, way back in the forties.
Nick Downer [00:20:00] Okay. And then what kind of job- What kind of jobs have you held in your life?
Leroy Cowans [00:20:06] Post office. And. Yeah, I’m a postal clerk since high school up until I left there, and when my divorce happened, and I got one spot labor, and then I got another trade, punch press setup man, operator.
Nick Downer [00:20:24] Where was that?
Leroy Cowans [00:20:25] Oh, Lakeland Temporary Service.
Nick Downer [00:20:28] Okay, that’s cool. And then where was the post office?
Leroy Cowans [00:20:31] Post office. Old post office on West Third. And then they changed to one up on Rockwell. I was in post office eight years.
Nick Downer [00:20:41] How’d you like that?
Leroy Cowans [00:20:42] Good. Oh, yeah. You’re making $15 an hour, big man. [inaudible]
Nick Downer [00:20:52] It’s true. Were you ever into music? Were you a music guy?
Leroy Cowans [00:20:55] Oh, I’m all rhythm and blues, some country, some rock, jazz. I like it all.
Nick Downer [00:21:03] You ever get to see anybody while you were living down here?
Leroy Cowans [00:21:08] No. I’m not a socializer like that. They had a jazz room down on Central. Jazz Room. All the old dudes played down there. Both White and Black went down there.
Nick Downer [00:21:20] What was it called?
Leroy Cowans [00:21:21] Jazz Room.
Nick Downer [00:21:22] Just the Jazz Room?
Leroy Cowans [00:21:23] Yeah.
Nick Downer [00:21:24] You remember when it closed?
Leroy Cowans [00:21:30] Well, attitudes changed down there, and they moved up on Euclid Avenue, but it still was the Jazz Room.
Nick Downer [00:21:41] You remember Leo’s Casino? I was talking to-
Leroy Cowans [00:21:43] There you go!
Nick Downer [00:21:44] That was it?
Leroy Cowans [00:21:45] Yeah. Okay. All right. You got it. It was the place, right? Leo’s Casino right up on it.
Nick Downer [00:21:52] Seemed like a cool place. I wish I could have seen it.
Leroy Cowans [00:21:54] It was nice. We had one place in Glenville called where the jazz artists would come and sing. What the devil would be called that? But it was a good doggone- It was a restaurant and bar. It was a really good- Massie Avenue and 105th Street. That’s when Glenville was a really good neighborhood.
Nick Downer [00:22:20] What was 105th Street like?
Leroy Cowans [00:22:22] 105th Street? Real good. 105th Street all the way from Euclid all way back to St. Clair. You had all the theaters on 105th Street, played the same movies they played downtown. We had five theaters on 105th and 107. And you didn’t have to go downtown to see a movie because it’s right there in your neighborhood. Then you had the clothing stores. You had the doggone drug stores and everything else. Clothing stores.
Nick Downer [00:22:50] Was it like higher class, or was this for everybody?
Leroy Cowans [00:22:54] Everybody! Just like downtown Cleveland. In my day, downtown Cleveland, every major store was downtown Cleveland. Every doggone- Everything was in downtown Cleveland. May Company, Higbee’s, Halle Brothers. Every doggone thing was downtown Cleveland, like they trying to make it now.
Nick Downer [00:23:07] Would you be excited to see it come back if they pull it off?
Leroy Cowans [00:23:13] Well, other than gambling, yes.
Nick Downer [00:23:18] What was 105th Street like racially? Was it both White and Black?
Leroy Cowans [00:23:22] Yeah. In Glenville? Yes. But you had the Glenville riots, you know. Yeah. The revolutionary dudes want to run the white man out, and they did it the wrong run, but they run the white man out. Then they couldn’t run out the crime, you couldn’t run out the prostitution, you couldn’t have run out the doggone [inaudible]. The [inaudible] was backwards.
Nick Downer [00:23:42] Where were you for the riots?
Leroy Cowans [00:23:44] I was right there. Right there in Glenville. They didn’t come down into my neighborhood. All the riot was done on 105th Street. But we told them, we had two grocery stores down in my neighborhood. You’re not coming down in thhe neighborhood mess with you. You did not.
Nick Downer [00:24:00] Was your neighborhood mostly Black at the time?
Leroy Cowans [00:24:02] It was mixed. It was mixed, black and white. That’s when I went to school. Parker Elementary School was mixed. Junior high school was mixed as Patrick Henry. And Glenville was mixed when I went to Glenville.
Nick Downer [00:24:17] So tell me the whole story of the riots from your perspective.
Leroy Cowans [00:24:20] Well, you had people, revolutionary dudes, they wanted to change this, change that, but they didn’t know why. It was wrong. Destruction of local neighborhood and rioting, you do it, in my opinion, the white man don’t hire you in the store, don’t do any business with them, but don’t run them out of the neighborhood. See what I mean?
Nick Downer [00:24:43] Yeah. So how’d you hear about it?
Leroy Cowans [00:24:45] On the street, as a kid- The kids on the street knew the riots going on, but the older people in the neighborhood, like the ministers and the councilmen didn’t even know because they were not inclusive about the neighborhood.
Nick Downer [00:24:59] What do you mean by that, not inclusive?
Leroy Cowans [00:25:01] Well, you got a church- You had three churches on 105th Street. The minister didn’t know the riots was coming, but we knew it. The kids on the street knew it was coming.
Nick Downer [00:25:09] How’d you know?
Leroy Cowans [00:25:11] Word went around.
Nick Downer [00:25:12] What, you just heard that it was happening in other places, and you thought it was going to come up the-
Leroy Cowans [00:25:16] Well, no, we just heard from the kids on the street. Okay? I didn’t mess around with the dudes. I mean, Black Panthers was Black Panthers, but I didn’t mess around with ’em.
Nick Downer [00:25:27] And then do you remember there was another thing, too, like, after the riots, there was the Glenville Shootout, right? There was, like, one guy who shot a couple cops. Do you remember that?
Leroy Cowans [00:25:37] No. It was racial doggone situation. In fact, [inaudible] the doggone brothers would try to hit on the white girls, especially Italians. They didn’t like that. The Italians and the Blacks did not all get along.
Nick Downer [00:25:53] So, do you remember there, was it- Was there any, like, sudden change after the riots? Did it get. You know, because I’ve heard that a lot of the whites left. Is that true? Is that how you saw it?
Leroy Cowans [00:26:03] Just like they deserted doggone Cleveland. Like, I ain’t kidding. But it was not just because of the riots. The Jacobs brothers came in and made the malls. Jacobs brothers. They made malls, okay? They made- Everybody’s moving to the suburbs, right? They made malls out there. They could get off their jobs here in Cleveland, get on buses, go out to the malls and shop to around, what, what, 10:00 in the evening? But they shut downtown Cleveland. Downtown Cleveland was shut down about 6:00. The only people that came downtown Cleveland then were Black, to go to the stores, you had three theaters. You had the Embassy, the Hippodrome and Standard. That’s the only people that came downtown Cleveland.
Nick Downer [00:26:47] What were those three places? Were they music?
Leroy Cowans [00:26:50] No, they were theaters. The Embassy, the Hippodrome, and Carter. Okay. Carter was on Prospect. Hippodrome was on Euclid. Embassy was on Euclid.
Nick Downer [00:27:01] So you must have seen Glenville change pretty significantly from mixed to mostly Black, right? In the time you lived there.
Leroy Cowans [00:27:09] The last white kid that I seen was when I graduated. When we graduated, they graduated with us, but no white kids moved- They moved out of the neighborhood, see? Okay, but I don’t know about now. They got a brand new [inaudible] on St. Clair. I don’t know if that’s as large as St. Clair, but I don’t know if there’s any whites moved in, going to school there.
Nick Downer [00:27:33] Wait, you were saying that there are whites now moving back in?
Leroy Cowans [00:27:35] No, I don’t think so.
Nick Downer [00:27:37] Okay, that makes sense. Yeah. And that must have been pretty crazy in your lifetime. See all the, you know, see all the whites moving out. How did you feel about that? Did you have a feeling about that?
Leroy Cowans [00:27:50] The persons you’d see are Blacks. When I moved on 117th Street and the man next door to me came from West Virginia. He didn’t like any boy of color. And Alice is his daughter. But my friend, he liked white girls. And he thought she was beautiful, but she thought it was insult. So she went back and told her father. Then he raised hell with my mother about it. And I asked my mother, what did you tell him? She said, Leroy wouldn’t do anything like that. That made me mad. He had no right to come over my mother’s porch raising hell about a friend of mine likes white girls. So I told him, don’t you do that again. Then I told him when I told her about his daughter. Right. Now picture?
Nick Downer [00:28:32] What did he say?
Leroy Cowans [00:28:33] I didn’t give a doggone if she ran down the street butt-naked and got run over by 18-wheeler. I didn’t really mean that, but I was expressing my opinion what I thought about his daughter. I checked her out. I was just sitting on the porch, and I said good morning to her when she was going to the store. She wouldn’t speak. So I knew she was prejudiced.
Nick Downer [00:28:50] So what did the father say when you told him that?
Leroy Cowans [00:28:54] Well, when I confronted him, his wife and daughter came over there and apologized to my mother. But he did not apologize to my mother. And I wouldn’t have accepted the apology from the mother and daughter, but I accepted an apology from him.
Nick Downer [00:29:14] So did you have other incidents like that when you were growing up?
Leroy Cowans [00:29:19] Ohio State. I was surprised by all the prejudice against interracial dating down Ohio State. Because my roommate had a white girlfriend. He got her pregnant. He went to Woody and asked for help. And Woody would not help him.
Nick Downer [00:29:32] Who?
Leroy Cowans [00:29:34] Woody would not help him.
Nick Downer [00:29:35] Okay.
Leroy Cowans [00:29:36] And they were Columbus kids. She lived off campus. He lived on campus. But I couldn’t understand. He did not get her pregnant in high school. Why did he want to come all the way to college and an opportunity to go to the NFL? But he did. But he went to Woody and asked for help. But Woody tried to help me. See? Cause when I went down Ohio State, I didn’t have to pay a penny down there. He had changed the whole doggone rules and regulations in the Big Ten. The room and board and everything was paid for because my family was low income, see? But they didn’t like interracial dating. Only one couple on the campus who didn’t mind who saw them walk together arm in arm. But they didn’t like interracial dating.
Nick Downer [00:30:21] So you got a scholarship to college?
Leroy Cowans [00:30:23] No, I got grant-in-aid. I could qualify. I got a better than C+, 2.5, but lower-income families, especially in Afro Americans, good athletes, they were able to go to Ohio State [inaudible] in the Big Ten.
Nick Downer [00:30:44] Do you- Which parts of Cleveland did you not go because, you know, you were Black and they were racist neighborhoods?
Leroy Cowans [00:30:51] Oh, man, I went to every doggone neighborhood. I mean, me and my bicycle went everywhere. I ain’t kidding. I mean, shoot, I’m just riding through the neighborhood. I’m not prejudiced, you know,
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