Abstract

Barbara Wherley grew up in Cleveland Heights and in this interview she describes that experience. She discusses what it was like going to Nela Park with her father, an employee of General Electric. She also describes her growth through the schools of Cleveland Heights, and how those experiences shaped her future thinking. She recalls how her church, Noble Road Presbyterian, was very involved in the civil rights movement. Additionally, she describes the attendance and the Sunday Schooling that went on at Noble Road Presbyterian. She finishes the interview by talking about how her life as a child greatly differs to her children's lives. She closes by wondering why that difference exists.

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Interviewee

Barbara Wherley

Interviewer

Mark Souther

Project

Cleveland Heights

Series

911

Date

10-6-2012

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

59 minutes

Transcript

Mark Souther [00:00:01] Today is October 6, 2012. My name is Mark Souther and I am in Cleveland Heights doing an oral history with, this is Barbara Wherley. Thank you very much for being here today. I guess we will use the first second or two here as a bit of a soundcheck since I forgot to do that. So maybe you could just describe what the weather is like today for just a moment.

Barbara Wherley [00:00:27] Today is a beautiful fall day, partly cloudy, partly sunny. The leaves are just beginning to change.

Mark Souther [00:00:35] Okay. Thank you, that's perfect. Thanks for agreeing to be interviewed for the project. As you know, we're recording memories of Cleveland Heights residents for the Cleveland Heights portion of the Cleveland Historical mobile app. And one of the things we'd like to do is develop stories in the Noble-Monticello area of Cleveland Heights. I understand that you grew up in this area. Can you tell me where you were born and what street you lived on?

Barbara Wherley [00:01:05] Well, I was born in Michigan, but I lived from two years old on at 3925 Delmore Road, which is on the eastern side of Noble and the southern side of Monticello.

Mark Souther [00:01:21] So you were within walking distance then to all the shops and businesses along?

Barbara Wherley [00:01:29] Correct. Correct. And, and young people. Then you people would send their six-year-old to go buy meat in those days. So I did. You know, you went down to the corner store and you crossed Noble in Monticello, which was busy then, and bought your mom meat if she needed it.

Mark Souther [00:01:49] What was your first memory, if you can remember maybe the first time that you were sent out to either do that or to go to any of the other businesses by yourself?

Barbara Wherley [00:01:57] I can clearly remember the first time I went because I was sure I didn't have enough money and I was kind of in a little panic that what would I do when I got there if I didn't have enough money, but I did have enough money. And my mother informed me later that they would, you just put it on your tab. In those days, you just say you were a Davis and you put it on your tab and they would have handed me the meat without any money.

Mark Souther [00:02:22] What was the business?

Barbara Wherley [00:02:24] It's called Knific's It was the local grocer. I don't know if there was one in every part of Cleveland Heights, but there are many little shopping areas all over Cleveland Heights and University Heights. And I happen to know that on Noble down by Monticello-Noble. There was Knific's and up toward Noble Elementary, there was delis. So maybe they were all over you that.

Mark Souther [00:02:48] How do you spell that?

Barbara Wherley [00:02:48] Oh my gosh.

Mark Souther [00:02:50] Do you remember?

Barbara Wherley [00:02:50] It was K N, I think it was K N I F I C S, boy, now you're. I don't. I'm not sure, but I think so.

Mark Souther [00:03:01] I don't think I have ever come across this business's name.

Barbara Wherley [00:03:01] I think so. Oh, everybody, everybody knew it and knows that it lasted a long time. It lasted. Somebody bought it from the Knific family and kept it open at least until 1980. It was opened quite a while.

Mark Souther [00:03:19] This was south of I'm sorry, north of Monticello.

Barbara Wherley [00:03:23] Correct, and eventually became Noble Foods, people knew it in the '70s and '80s as Noble Foods.

Mark Souther [00:03:31] What other businesses do you remember when you were growing up that were right around that same area?

Barbara Wherley [00:03:37] Well, there was a hardware store as you approached Roanoke on the same side of Noble, and there was Rukasin Drug, which everybody knew. Everybody bought their drugs there. Everybody bought their candy there. Everybody bought their soda fountain stuff there. That everybody, that was that was where everybody congregated. The fellow who owned it, Mr. Rukasin, is what we called him. It was kind of like going to shop with your uncle or your grandfather. That's sort of what it felt like.

Mark Souther [00:04:13] Did you, do you recall ever going up to the I'm not sure what the name of the little broker, little stream that runs back behind? I think it's Randolph Road down in the woods. Do you have any memories of playing in there and what that was called?

Barbara Wherley [00:04:27] Oh, my gosh. What was it called? We called it the creek, but what was its official name? I, I don't, I don't know. We called it the creek and we played there all the time. But I can tell you it was not it was frowned upon by the school. You got in a lot of trouble if you played in there and the school found out not having nothing to do with school days, you would just we're not supposed to play down there.

Mark Souther [00:04:50] Did you ever know why?

Barbara Wherley [00:04:54] As an adult? I think it probably had to do with storm sewers and and filling up with water very quickly when there was a storm. That's my guess. No, I was never told why I was not.

Mark Souther [00:05:04] Did you go often?

Barbara Wherley [00:05:04] Often. And we also went we went to that one. And I don't know if it's the same creek that runs through Denison Park. I don't think it is, but we went to that one, too, and there was a culvert there and you could go into the culvert. But, in back then, Denison was just a field. Denison Park was a field. So.

Mark Souther [00:05:29] I understand at one point it was a city dump, but it had been, then it was turned into a park?

Barbara Wherley [00:05:34] Yeah, I don't know it as a city dump. I, no. I probably my first memories of there were, let's say, 1960 and it was not a dump or if it was, it was on the outskirts where I wasn't going.

Mark Souther [00:05:49] Now that I think about it, that was earlier and I think Denison Park started sometime in the '50s. I can't remember.

Barbara Wherley [00:05:54] Yeah. I'm going to guess because I'm pretty sure I mean, it was certainly not the park it is now wasn't manicured. It wasn't, had tennis courts. It didn't, definitely didn't have a pool. We had to that's where we went to catch bugs and everybody would have to do a insect report. When you hit 10th grade and went to high school, you had to bring an insect report, an insect collection. And so that's where you went to collect your insects. Everybody went to Denison Park to collect. There weren't that many fields around. There was a field at the corner of my street. There was a field at the corner of Delmore and Monticello, even though there was one of those little three store small, another several stores right there. That, one was a pizza place that we all went to. The field was there until they built the insurance company, which is also no longer there. Things change quickly.

Mark Souther [00:06:55] Yeah. So Denison Park, if I understand correctly, they added the pool in the late 1960s?

Barbara Wherley [00:07:03] Now I'm going to guess it was later than that because I never swam there as a child. We all had to go to Cumberland and I got out of high school in '71. So maybe late '60s because I probably wasn't going to the pool so much, although, I went, no my friends, we were. So I'm going to say '70s. Yeah, I think it must have been the '70.

Mark Souther [00:07:23] Okay, and getting back to the Noble area although that is really close to it. What about Nela Park? Do you have any memories of Nela Park?

Barbara Wherley [00:07:33] Well, I'm a GE baby, so I have huge memories of Nela Park. My father worked for GE and anybody in Cleveland who worked for GE, your family could go there. I went to Nela Park three days a week my whole life when it was open, which was summertime. We all took swimming lessons there at three days a week minimum. We took swimming lessons two days. We always went on Sunday. And then we went other times too. We spent a lot of time in Nela Park, but it wasn't public. You couldn't just go to Nela Park and play. You had to have your parents had to have a card to go there. But I just happened to have gone there all the time because I was a GE child.

Mark Souther [00:08:19] What did your father do?

Barbara Wherley [00:08:20] My father was an accountant, not at Nela Park, at the top of Highland Road hill. When you're almost into Richmond Heights, I believe there was a small General Electric lighting facility there where they manufactured like they manufactured bulbs and he worked there as their accountant.

Mark Souther [00:08:46] I see. So they had plenty of recreational facilities, though at Nela Park?

Barbara Wherley [00:08:49] Yeah, they had playgrounds, tennis courts, two pools, a baby. No, three pools a real baby pool, a middy pool, and a big pool.

Mark Souther [00:09:00] Do you have, know how many people working there at its peak possibly. Did you ever hear a figure of maybe how that compares with now?

Barbara Wherley [00:09:06] I don't. I don't. I'm sorry, but I can tell you, as it compares with now, it was full then. Every building was full and now many of the buildings are shuttered. My brother-in-law worked there until he retired. And it's, it's nothing like it was in size. Our numbers, I mean, the size is still there because all the buildings are still there, but they're empty.

Mark Souther [00:09:27] I understand too and I, in fact in the. I've lived in Cleveland Heights about 10 years. We always go see the Nela Park Christmas lights and they seem to have dwindled somewhat in the 10 years that I've been here. I wonder if you could speak to what they were like when you were growing up and how what extent you've seen them change?

Barbara Wherley [00:09:50] They were fantastic when I was growing up. Everybody was allowed in then. It was [you] were in your car. You drove in the main gate, which is not the current main gate. And every every other building at least, and there are many, many buildings inside of there was lit. Beautifully, tons and tons of lights and everybody followed a serpentine, you know, they told you exactly what roads to take within the facility and it was bumper to bumper cars all the time in December. It was just beautiful, just beautiful. So then the progress was to not letting you come in. But there were tons of lights on Noble Road. Then they brought it down to setting up those figures and outlining them, you know, like a skunk outlined in lights and not so many lights on the buildings. And yes, it's, I try not to talk about how the past was better because I don't think it was. But in this case it was.

Mark Souther [00:10:56] Yeah. Do you know, when they quit letting people in and why?

Barbara Wherley [00:11:00] It was a security issue. I know why. I don't remember when, but I'm I'm going to take a stab at early '70s. It was a long time ago. We were stopped being allowed to go in.

Mark Souther [00:11:14] Was it just the general security concerns or was there some incident or fear of some particular type of incident?

Barbara Wherley [00:11:20] There. I'm. I believe they were worried about the security of their secrets as opposed to. There was no incident. There was no. Nothing, nothing like that, but there was, at that time, corporate security was becoming more of a discussion, an issue that was discussed, and I believe that that was why.

Mark Souther [00:11:47] I see.

Barbara Wherley [00:11:48] And it probably, you know, it probably took a lot of money to do that. And that was probably a factor too.

Mark Souther [00:11:57] It seems in general, GE is a shell of its former self in Cleveland.

Barbara Wherley [00:12:02] Right, right.

Mark Souther [00:12:05] At present. Moving to a different topic. Do you remember ever having any understanding of the importance of the farmhouses up around Noble Road the few that were up there? Were you ever made aware of those growing up or were they just not really noticed?

Barbara Wherley [00:12:26] I would say they were not really noticed, although we all talked about them. I mean, not in a not in a studied way or a those are important historical markers. We just all knew there was one on Bluestone. There was an old house with turrets on my Noble Road. We all knew them. We all knew they were cool old houses. But no, there was no sense of discussing their historical value nor protecting them. Nothing like that. I don't remember. My family didn't do that.

Mark Souther [00:12:59] Were you? I'm guessing this may be the right time period. I've read that in the nineteen, I guess it was the early 1960s that I'm speaking of, I can't remember, that there was talk of having a second Cleveland Heights High School that would be in the northern part and not that far east, but in the northern part of town somewhere, perhaps around the Forest Hill area, Forest Hill's area. Do you?

Barbara Wherley [00:13:27] I do recall the discussions, but I don't recall a single thing about it.

Mark Souther [00:13:32] Okay.

Barbara Wherley [00:13:32] And I and I got to tell you, I never believed it would happen at that time. I never thought it was serious enough, although there were so many kids. I mean, when I went to Heights High School, it was just three grades. And there were, there were a thousand more than a thousand kids in my class. And we had up and down stairwells so that you didn't crash into each other. I mean, it was a concern at how overflowed it was, but I don't remember it ever being serious. It was just a thought in in my memory.

Mark Souther [00:14:08] Before we at some point, I'm going to shift to the your memories of the church itself, but I also I guess because we are on the topic of schools, I wanted to ask you about the different Heights schools that you attended, starting with I think you said Oxford, was where you attended, right?

Barbara Wherley [00:14:24] Correct. We lived the farthest from the school of almost anybody because we were south of Monticello and we had, we had to cross a very busy street. But, you did, you know, the first day your mother took you and then your mother never took you again. So when you were in kindergarten, you walked to school. You might walk alone. You might, your siblings might deign to walk with you. The little girl across the street might happen out her door at the same time you did. But if she didn't, you walked alone. It was quite a walk. Oxford school felt very large to me when I was little, had a lot of grounds around it, had gardens. We were allowed to garden in the, it which is now still gardens, but we were allowed to garden in the summers if you were a student at Oxford. It was school, I don't know. It was school, felt very disciplined, felt like a disciplined place. I didn't I don't remember Oxford being a terribly fun place. I remember it as a place to go to school. You know, you went and you sat in your classroom and you did what the teacher told you. I don't really know.

Mark Souther [00:15:41] Do you remember any of the, you know, WPA art in there?

Barbara Wherley [00:15:47] Yes, I do. In fact, there was one. In fact, it was either outside of both of the kindergarten rooms. It was definitely either in my kindergarten room or right outside of my kindergarten room. In fact, I can almost picture it still now that you're bringing it up. And I haven't thought about it in a billion years. And you're making me, I can, I can remember. It was pastel colors, not light pastel. I call it dark pastel colors, but I don't remember the picture. I don't remember. I want to say, I want to say it's Mother Goose. But you know what? I do not, I don't know.

Mark Souther [00:16:23] I'll refresh your memory.

Barbara Wherley [00:16:23] Is it still there?

Mark Souther [00:16:24] Yes, there are two of them. One is Cinderella and.

Barbara Wherley [00:16:28] Oh, yeah.

Mark Souther [00:16:30] One is Pied Piper.

Barbara Wherley [00:16:30] Yes, I see. I do. I do remember clearly. Yes. Now that, I mean, I didn't, but now I absolutely do remember those. And did I think they were special? No, I didn't. They were just part of the school. Yeah.

Mark Souther [00:16:43] Were the ceramics, the figurines visible to you as a kid or?

Barbara Wherley [00:16:50] What? I don't know what ceramics you're talking about.

Mark Souther [00:16:52] There were also some WPA-made ceramics that were. They were figures of, I'm trying to remember now also fairy tale figures. I can't remember which ones.

Barbara Wherley [00:17:05] I'm sorry.

Mark Souther [00:17:06] Wizard of Oz for example.

Barbara Wherley [00:17:07] I do not remember. I do not remember those.

Mark Souther [00:17:09] It's possible that they had those maybe in an office.

Barbara Wherley [00:17:12] Yeah.

Mark Souther [00:17:13] Or in, even in storage.

Barbara Wherley [00:17:14] Yeah, I don't. I do not. I do not.

Mark Souther [00:17:17] That's an outside by the way federal art project.

Barbara Wherley [00:17:20] Oh wow. So you can see from our area what was in that. Well what they paid for what they.

Mark Souther [00:17:26] One of the things I don't talk too much on here, but I'll just quickly tell you that on October 20th when we do the bicycle tour of the neighborhood, we're starting and ending at Oxford.

Barbara Wherley [00:17:37] Oh.

Mark Souther [00:17:37] And when we end at Oxford, we'll go inside and look at the, all the ceramics and the murals. And so.

Barbara Wherley [00:17:44] October 20th. Okay.

Mark Souther [00:17:45] Yeah. So, keep that in mind, maybe. And I guess then from there you went to?

Barbara Wherley [00:17:55] Monticello.

Mark Souther [00:17:57] Okay. Can you tell me a little bit about of maybe the building experiences you had there, anything that comes to mind?

Barbara Wherley [00:18:04] Well, Monticello, I have clear memories of one particular teacher, Mrs. Ruby, who had the corner room, front corner west. She was the ninth-grade English teacher. She was tough, but she was terrific. I have great memories of her. We, at lunchtime, we got to see movies. It was terrific. You went for half your lunch, ate your lunch, and then you went into the auditorium and you watched movies The Day the Earth Stood Still, I can and Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea. It was. That was terrific. That was fun. We had Home EC, which and the boys had shop, which is a dead thing in the middle schools now, but in junior high school, the girls learned to sew and the girls learned to cook. And it was only the girls who learned to sew and cook. And the boys took shop.

Mark Souther [00:19:10] Were you in any other, any school organizations? Do you recall?

Barbara Wherley [00:19:15] I played on the basketball team, the girls basketball team, and we played Wiley and we played Roxboro and Roosevelt and I was one of the referees for girls basketball intramural. Oh, that's another thing I remember the intramurals was, they were terrific. They were strong. Everybody did intramurals. Those, those were a lot of fun. The games you played against each other, they that was a lot of fun. It was very well organized. I mean, I'm sure every kid didn't, but huge numbers of kids participated in that.

Mark Souther [00:19:51] Was that just within the one school?

Barbara Wherley [00:19:53] Just within your school. It was only if you got onto the girls' basketball team in ninth grade, and remember, ninth grade was high school credit, but you were not in the high school. You did get to play other, other schools within the city, but not outside of the city.

Mark Souther [00:20:12] I see. Yeah, so, intramural of course does mean.

Barbara Wherley [00:20:15] Intra was within the school. Right, right. Right.

Mark Souther [00:20:18] Right within the schools. Colleges do that too. But I was wondering if maybe they ever admitted anyone not in.

Barbara Wherley [00:20:20] No, no, not then.

Mark Souther [00:20:22] On a non-competitive basis maybe or not.

Barbara Wherley [00:20:25] And we didn't have field hockey. I understand that the Roxboro area kids had field hockey, but we did not we, I'd never heard of field hockey until I got to the high school.

Mark Souther [00:20:37] What were the mascots for the different schools you attended? Because I think maybe they were different than they are.

Barbara Wherley [00:20:42] We didn't have one at Oxford. I know it's the owl. Well, it was the owl. Now everybody has the tiger. Monticello was the cardinal. We are the cardinals, the mighty, mighty cardinals. That's what one of the chants we did all the time and they called we called ourselves Monty. That was the school nickname.

Mark Souther [00:21:03] Oh, that's something I never knew. So you were there in the sort of late nineteen, mid to late nineteen. I guess late 1960s?

Barbara Wherley [00:21:12] I was in Monticello, yeah. I ended at Monticello in '68. Yes.

Mark Souther [00:21:22] Can you give me your sense of racial integration in the schools as you came through? When it happened and, you know, to what extent it happened or anything?

Barbara Wherley [00:21:30] I can tell you pretty clearly, I don't, you know. I don't know why I have that, but I do because I did not come from a family that spoke about it a lot in at Oxford. There were no black children. I don't know that there were in Cleveland Heights at that time. And I remember there were like two or three Jewish kids. I mean, that's there it was dramatically different because in other parts of Cleveland Heights, it was hugely Jewish. We got to Monticello and we were those of us from Oxford were well aware that the kids from Millikin were all Jewish. Now they weren't. But that's what it felt. That's what, you know, your a kid and that you feel like they're all Jewish. And that was very interesting to us. It was kind of like a point of interest that now we're getting to meet some Jewish kids, you know, and then when the black kids came, I feel like it was eighth grade. I don't think it was seventh grade. I believe it was eighth grade. And, I think in my class there was a boy. And then in ninth grade, there may have been two boys in my class. But then when we went to high school, they must have been in other parts of Cleveland Heights because then we had a handful in our grade, a handful of black kids. And by the time I left Heights, I would still call it only a handful, but it was probably much more than that. Let me think. In my homeroom and we had homerooms then everybody, you went to your homeroom every year, every day for all three years. I think I had two black kids in my homeroom. So that means there were quite a few. It was a big school, you know, so.

Mark Souther [00:23:17] Still a small minority.

Barbara Wherley [00:23:20] Very small minority.

Mark Souther [00:23:22] Later.

Barbara Wherley [00:23:22] No, the Jews were much the bigger minority. And and when they were a minority, when we had Jewish holidays, we did not get Jewish holidays off. So we all had to go to school. And oh, my gosh, you realize how Jewish your schools were when you were there on Jewish holidays because there were only a handful of kids in each class.

Mark Souther [00:23:46] It's surprising, really, that they.

Barbara Wherley [00:23:48] That they didn't give them off. I know. It's unbelievable. It just shows you, though, how WASPish the government was or the school government was, because now we still get them off and, you know, we're back to it's swung the other way. It's it's now a much smaller minority of Jewish kids in the school. But we still get the holidays off because so many of the teachers, I think, are Jewish still. But then they were too you know, and

Mark Souther [00:24:17] The reason I asked about the two high schools is that one of the things that went along with that, at least under the surface, allegedly was a concern about the school being heavily Jewish. And some wanted to split away and create one in the northern part of Cleveland Heights that had been essentially non-Jewish population and I don't know if that's true or not.

Barbara Wherley [00:24:41] I have to tell you, my parents shielded me from that, if that was the case, because I have no knowledge of that. But I can tell you, it was very [it]. See I had I didn't have prejudice at home in that regard, but it was still a big deal to me to meet Jewish kids. It was like, wow, you know, and here I am in the city that's hugely Jewish and I don't know any of them because I'm an Oxford and a Monty or an Oxford. And there wasn't until Monticello. And then it was only one of the three schools that fed Monticello for four Millikin Noble, Oxford. Yeah, just the three.

Mark Souther [00:25:22] I'm curious because I grew up in a town of about at the time, about twenty thousand, and it's grown to about forty thousand since. It's grown a lot while in Cleveland Heights it's gone the other way in population. But but a sizable community in which everyone went to the same high school like here, but in which at one point in time there were multiple elementary schools feeding into a middle school and then so on. And over the years they closed more and more schools where you just everyone came through together. By the time I came through, as opposed to my parents. So I'm interested what the dynamic, what the feel was of living in Cleveland Heights and going through the school system, because this seems like a in some ways a tight-knit community with a lot of sort of common purpose. And yet it was so big that it had, you know, like you said, you didn't know people who went to other parts of the city. How did you feel in your neighborhood? Did you identify more? To what extent do you identify with Cleveland Heights as opposed to your neighborhood?

Barbara Wherley [00:26:26] I would say I identified much more with my neighborhood than I did with Cleveland Heights. Absolutely. No question. I and, and in my case, I identified with Monticello. No, Oxford, Noble, Monticello I identified with. When I got to the high school and we were invited to parties of kids who lived over here. It was like my parents even I don't know if I can get you there. I don't know if I can find my way. You know, we're talking three miles, but but that's absolutely the way I felt when I was growing up. My identity was not Cleveland Heights. It was Northern Cleveland Heights. That's interesting that you should bring it up, though, because I never really thought about it. I never gave it any thought. But that's the truth. That is absolutely the truth. Now, my church probably had a lot to do with that because it was over there, too. If my church had been Fairmount Presbyterian, because it's not so odd to go to a church a couple of miles from your home, I probably would not have had that sense. But since my church was in my neighborhood and all my shopping was in my neighborhood and when Severance Center was built, it was kind of in my neighborhood. I definitely did not feel this side of Cleveland Heights at all. It didn't exist, kind of. The high school was over here, but we even walk to the high school three miles, we would walk, we had busses then, but we would walk. My friends and I walked. So we, I don't know. It's different.

Mark Souther [00:28:01] How did you come to live then on this side of Cleveland Heights later on, out of curiosity?

Barbara Wherley [00:28:06] I can tell you exactly. My husband wanted a bay window. He wanted a living room big enough to turn his stereo up and get a good sound. And I wanted a yard. And that's why we moved to this side of town. And there were concerns. I would, they were. We had enough money to buy a nicer house than our parents had and. There were concerns when we were buying a house, there were more concerns, I think, than there are now with race isn't the right word, but it is, have to, it has to do with, it had to do with changing housing. It was changing too fast in where we grew up as opposed to over here. It was changing in a nice, not nicer fashion, in a slower fashion. People were moving in. People were moving out. It wasn't a rush to move out if a black person moved on that street. Whereas I had the sense that when I moved here in that part of Cleveland Heights, there was this urgency to get out, which I hated, but I could have helped counteract by moving there, but I did not. I'll admit it. I did not.

Mark Souther [00:29:24] It's really interesting because, you know, it is closer to East Cleveland.

Barbara Wherley [00:29:28] It's very close to East Cleveland. In fact, you know, Nela Park is in East Cleveland and I spent. Friends that lived on Randolph, you went to the shops that were down Stonebreaker's Drug. It probably literally was in Cleveland Heights because that little section of Cleveland Heights goes to the East Cleveland schools. Are you familiar with that? It probably literally was in Cleveland Heights, but we would go down there all the time that would you know, if you lived on Randolph, you were already down there. And that's that was your neighborhood.

Mark Souther [00:29:58] I'm curious about one other place that I forgot to mention until now. It's sort of peripheral too. It's also in East Cleveland, but Warner and Swasey Observatory. Any memories of this?

Barbara Wherley [00:30:09] Yeah. Yeah, but not we didn't go very often, but we went. We went. I can't tell you. I can't tell you if it was open all the time. I don't remember that. When my father would say let's go, we would go. I don't have a sense of it having classes. I don't have a sense of how often it was open. But we did go.

Mark Souther [00:30:32] Do you remember being there?

Barbara Wherley [00:30:33] Yeah, yeah.

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