Anthony Pilla interview, 04 August 2016

Abstract

Bishop Anthony M. Pilla served as the Bishop of the Diocese of Cleveland for twenty-five years. Appointed in 1980, his first official act was to receive the bodies of Sister Dorothy Kazel and Jean Donovan from El Salvador. In this interview, Bishop Pilla reflects on his time as Bishop of Cleveland and on the martyrdom of "The Four Church Women." He discusses the political side of sending a team of missionaries to a foreign country and on dealing with politicians in both the United States and El Salvador. Other topics include the impact of the work of the Catholic Church on the Salvadoran people and the common misconceptions among politicians, both in the United States and El Salvador towards the work of the missionaries.

Interviewee

Pilla, Anthony (interviewee)

Interviewer

Randt, Naomi A. (interviewer)

Project

Protest Voices

Date

8-4-2016

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

58 minutes

Recommended Citation

"Anthony Pilla interview, 04 August 2016" (2016). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 750010.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/786

Related Resources

Protest Voices @ Cleveland Voices

Transcript

Naomi A. Randt [00:00:01] My name is [Naomi A. Randt]. I’m with Bishop Anthony Pilla. It’s the 4th of August. The Center for Pastoral Leadership. Would you please state your name for the record?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:00:12] Anthony M. Pilla, Bishop of Cleveland, retired.

Naomi A. Randt [00:00:17] Can you spell your last name, please?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:00:19] P as in Peter, I-L-L-A.

Naomi A. Randt [00:00:25] So we’ll just get started with some background information on you. Where were you born?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:00:30] I was born in Cleveland, Ohio.

Naomi A. Randt [00:00:33] And where was that?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:00:34] 1932.

Naomi A. Randt [00:00:37] What was growing up in Cleveland like then?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:00:41] I lived in a very ethnic neighborhood, presently known as Little Italy, Holy Rosary Parish. So I grew up in a neighborhood with a lot of traditional customs and traditions, and it was a wonderful way to grow up because the families were very close, the relatives were very close, had a lot of association.

Naomi A. Randt [00:01:16] Did you have any siblings?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:01:17] I have one brother.

Naomi A. Randt [00:01:20] What did your parents do?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:01:22] My father was in the electrical business. My mother was a homekeeper.

Naomi A. Randt [00:01:30] Did you grow up in a religious household?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:01:32] Yes, it was very, very much so. But it was a tradition because my mother and father were both born in Italy, and so faith was part of their who they were. The Catholic faith was part of who they were, and they instilled that in us. But they gave us the opportunity to come to that realization ourselves. It wasn’t something that was forced on us. It was something we grew to love and respect.

Naomi A. Randt [00:02:07] Was that part of the process of deciding to become a priest?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:02:10] I think so. I think so. Not intentionally, but as I look back, those values in that environment in which I grew certainly made me susceptible to thinking about that. And I grew up in the parish that I grew up with and in school, I went to Cathedral Latin, High School, and they’re the ones who specifically encouraged me to think about it. And my parents were wonderful about it. They were both happy that I was thinking about it, but they made sure that it was something that I needed to decide for myself. And whatever I did was fine with them, but they were very supportive of the idea of becoming a priest.

Naomi A. Randt [00:02:59] Where did you, did you go to St. Borromeo?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:03:02] No, I went to St. Gregory’s in Cincinnati for five years because we didn’t have a minor seminary. Minor seminary means high school and college. We only had the theologet [phonetic] at St. Mary’s on Ansel Road. Borromeo wasn’t here yet. And then I came to Borromeo when this opened up. I was the first class to, I was in the first class that graduated from Borromeo College here.

Naomi A. Randt [00:03:32] What was that experience like?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:03:34] Oh, it was great, but it was always in building, so I never was in one room. First year, I was in five different rooms, but it was wonderful. I mean, we had a great faculty, great mentors, and it was nice getting ready for priesthood in your home base because you got to know the diocese and the people, and you made friendships that were lifelong friendships. Everybody you were in class with were all Clevelanders, and it was very nice.

Naomi A. Randt [00:04:10] Where were you assigned after you?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:04:13] I was assigned to St. Bartholomew’s in Middleburg Heights. I was there for nine months, then I was signed here to teach, and I was here for 14 years.

Naomi A. Randt [00:04:23] What did you teach here?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:04:25] History, political science and economics.

Naomi A. Randt [00:04:29] Was that your major in college?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:04:30] No. Philosophy and theology were.

Naomi A. Randt [00:04:35] Did you enjoy teaching?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:04:36] I did. I had to go and do some graduate work in those areas, but that’s not what I was getting ready for. [laughs]

Naomi A. Randt [00:04:49] Where did you go after you taught for 14 years here?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:04:52] Then I went on to then Bishop Hickey’s staff. I was in charge of personnel, priestly personnel, priests and religious. I was there for seven years, then became auxiliary bishop for about two, year and a half, two. Then I became, became bishop in 1980.

Naomi A. Randt [00:05:17] Could you talk a bit more about your responsibilities under Bishop Hickey?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:05:22] I was in charge of priests and religious, nuns and brothers, so I dealt with all issues related to those groups. I was head of them. I was called secretary. So all, any department in the diocesan administration that had to do with priests or religious were under me.

Naomi A. Randt [00:05:48] Did you enjoy that job?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:05:52] Uh, I learned a lot from it. It’s not the kind of job you enjoy, but it certainly was a great experience. Got to know the personnel quite well over those years, and I look back, that was a blessing because when I became bishop, I was a known entity [laughs], and they were known entities. It’s an advantage and disadvantage. It depends what the experience was.

Naomi A. Randt [00:06:23] What were some of those issues that you had to deal with?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:06:26] Well, priests who got sick or priests who needed assistance of any kind, having personal problems, whatever they might be. Placing them. The personnel office was under me, so every time a priest was placed in an assignment, it was one of the departments I oversaw.

Naomi A. Randt [00:06:50] How did you become auxiliary bishop?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:06:53] The bishop told me. That’s the way it worked. He nominated me and the Vatican appointed me. You don’t know that’s going on until it’s done.

Naomi A. Randt [00:07:12] What was that like when he-?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:07:14] A shock. [laughs] I was hoping to be in a parish. That’s why I became a diocesan priest, be a parish priest, but it worked out fine.

Naomi A. Randt [00:07:29] And you were auxiliary under bishop?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:07:32] For about a year and a half or two. Then he became Cardinal and went to Washington. I was the administrator of the diocese for nine months. And then I was named the Bishop, 1980, and my first official act was to receive the bodies of Sister Dorothy Kazel and Jean Donovan at the airport with the head of the Ursuline community. It was, I have to say, a life-changing moment for me. It taught me right from the beginning that serving God can involve your life, you know.

Naomi A. Randt [00:08:25] Were you very involved in what was going on in El Salvador before that point at all?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:08:31] No. No, I wasn’t too involved. I knew about it, and I was involved somewhat because I work with the people who were in charge. Father St. Marie was in charge for a while. He’s a classmate of mine, and we worked together, so I knew about the place, but I didn’t- I wasn’t involved directly.

Naomi A. Randt [00:09:01] Can you talk a little bit more about that, having to receive their bodies?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:09:07] Well, I was led up to receiving their bodies, and I was there when we first got the notification that they were missing. And I had a deal with the State Department and the president of El Salvador. And it was difficult getting the truth from both.

Naomi A. Randt [00:09:31] Was that the U.S. State Department?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:09:32] Yes.

Naomi A. Randt [00:09:35] And were you just, like, making phone calls trying to find out what happened?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:09:38] Well, I was just trying to find out and see what assistance we might get, you know, and they- We were concerned because we hadn’t heard anything. But I was led to believe that they still might be found. And they were dead.

Naomi A. Randt [00:10:01] Who had led you to believe that?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:10:03] Both. I think they were a little suspect about how the religious were involved in El Salvador. It was at the time when the rebels- And from what I knew, I still believe that they weren’t out directly involved in any of that. They were serving the people of El Salvador. And anyone who served the people, I’m afraid, was labeled as suspicious, sympathetic towards the poor, sympathetic towards the alienated and brutalized. So. Now, the ambassador in El Salvador, Ambassador White, he was marvelous. He was, I feel, an outstanding ambassador as far as his compassion is concerned, his honesty. He was very good.

Naomi A. Randt [00:11:19] Is there anything more specific you could say about Ambassador White?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:11:23] Well, he told the truth. I mean, he was shocked by that and shocked by any inference that their work wasn’t perfectly legitimate and not political and not involved in any kind of rebellious activity.

Naomi A. Randt [00:11:43] Did the diocese try to, I mean, when you were talking to the State Department try and, I mean, talk to them about the work and try to make-?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:11:54] Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I tried to make clear why we were there and why we allowed them to be there and what the focus of our presence was. I stated that to both the president of El Salvador and the State Department.

Naomi A. Randt [00:12:14] And how did they respond?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:12:18] I’m not sure I convinced them.

Naomi A. Randt [00:12:24] What was it like having to talk to the president of El Salvador?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:12:29] Well, like talking to presidents today. I mean, you have to decipher, you know, what’s being said and what’s behind what’s being said. And, you know, it’s very difficult to get a clear response.

Naomi A. Randt [00:12:55] Were there any suspicions once you found out that they had been killed that the government might been involved?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:13:04] There was. I don’t know if the government was involved. There was suspicion that it was done by military, but I never heard anything about the government being involved. But from what our personnel felt, they were stopped at the airport by soldiers, and I know they were concerned immediately that something terrible would happen to them once that happened.

Naomi A. Randt [00:13:42] What was the reaction like in Cleveland to the news?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:13:47] Oh, it was very strong and shocked. There was an enormous amount of anxiety for the remaining missionaries and a lot of pressure to bring them home, even from some of the families. But the broader community couldn’t understand why we would let them stay there because we were putting them in danger.

Naomi A. Randt [00:14:12] Is that the broader Catholic community?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:14:14] Yes. Well, some not just Catholic, but some of the others probably not as much, but from the Catholic community, because it was a very. We were very committed to that work as a people. Bishop Issenmann started it, but, I mean, the people were generous and very supportive of it and were shocked that religious will be treated that way. So they were afraid for their safety, and I could understand that, and so were the families, you know.

Naomi A. Randt [00:14:51] Was it difficult to keep them there?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:14:57] Very. Yeah, it was an awful lot of precious. But before I did anything, made every final decision, I asked them to come home. Now, they were a little reluctant because some of them, and I think they still felt it, they thought I had it already made up my mind that I was going to close it down, but that was never- I wanted to call them home, and I did tell them it was not optional. They had to come home, and they all came. And the purpose for that was, I felt that they ought to have some input on the decision. Whenever a bishop does it, though, everybody presumes that he’s already made up his mind. He’s just trying- And that wasn’t true. I had not made up my mind. I was concerned for their safety, and I wanted to make sure that I acted responsibly about that. So I brought them home and we put them all in the same room, and we talked about whether we should stay or not stay. And they were very eloquent and very edifying. It was a great experience. They felt that there was greater reason now to stay after that incident than it was in the beginning because the people would feel abandoned when it really got tough, we left and they didn’t have any option to leave. And so they said it was very, very important that we stay. And I didn’t ask him to state it at that time. I said, and I let ’em talk about, everyone, and I asked everyone in that room to say something. And I can’t remember anyone who was supportive of leaving. But I told them that I would want in writing, because I felt it’s hard to say in front of the group if you didn’t want to go back, you’d be the only person. So I wanted to give them freedom and the comfort of saying what they really wanted do. So I said after the meeting I hadn’t made up my mind, but you each let me know and then I’ll let you know. It was very clear to me after I reflected and prayed on it, you know, I said to myself, how can I say to them, you’re not free to give your life for the sake of the Gospel? How can I tell them that? That’s who we are And, you know, I can’t. It’s got to be their decision. If they voluntarily want to do that for the sake of the Gospel and their commitment to Jesus Christ, I’m not gonna say you can’t do that. That will be contradictory. So that’s where it came down. I said, you know, you don’t have to go back, but if you want to go back, I will continue to support it.

Naomi A. Randt [00:18:11] How many people were in that room?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:18:15] I can’t remember. There were four priests and three nuns and one laywoman.

Naomi A. Randt [00:18:23] And was it just the people who were in El Salvador?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:18:25] Yeah, the people who were in El Salvador and the director of the mission office.

Naomi A. Randt [00:18:37] They all decided to go back?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:18:38] They all decided to come back, very strongly. So that’s the way it was. And we never- It’s amazing. We never did not have, in all the years I was bishop anyway, we never did not have volunteers from the priests or religious or laypeople. Every time it was time for somebody to rotate out, there was always someone else willing to go. So, that’s a marvelous history.

Naomi A. Randt [00:19:24] How long were you bishop?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:19:26] Twenty-five years.

Naomi A. Randt [00:19:36] After- I’m wondering if you could speak a little bit about Dorothy’s funeral.

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:19:45] Dorothy’s funeral was, I think, a historical event because it did, it celebrated Dorothy because she was a marvelous woman to begin with, a great teacher. The Ursulines really. They called it an alleluia celebration because she wasn’t- It was their idea of an alleluia person. I mean, she very positive and effervescent and just full of life. And that’s the way the funeral was. It was not morose and it was not sad. It was a real celebration of commitment to the Gospel and service to the people of God, especially the poor. And people just all came. They had everybody there.

Naomi A. Randt [00:20:41] How many people, do you think? Can you estimate?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:20:45] Probably- When we had the liturgy at the cathedral, I would say 1100, 1200 people at least, and probably at the mother house, about eight or 900. The place was full. Whatever it holds, the place was full. Because, you know, with them it was a community commitment. So it was not just a personal commitment; it was a community commitment. And that’s something they all dedicated themselves to. So there was always an Ursuline.

Naomi A. Randt [00:21:28] Did you witness an outpouring of support from just regular people in Cleveland?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:21:35] Yes. Well, both. I witnessed the concern, but when we made the decision and whenever we went to them for support, we had support. It all depends where they were on the political spectrum.

Naomi A. Randt [00:21:55] Did you ever witness any sort of protest or anything about-?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:22:00] No, not our being in El Salvador. Never had any of that from in or outside the church that I’m aware of.

Naomi A. Randt [00:22:10] Anything against the U.S. policy towards-?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:22:14] No, because that was not our purpose there. You know, quite frankly, I would not look for that because it was clear in our understanding with each other, with the missionaries and the diocese and me as the Bishop, that we’re there to serve the people of El Salvador. We are not there to be involved in any political process or protest process, that we would work collaboratively when morally it was consistent with who we are now. If there was something that someone was doing that we felt morally we couldn’t be identified with, we had to make that very clear. So I asked them to have a good relationship with the local authorities so that if there’s anything going on, you should let them know and not operate independently. You tell it to the people who need to hear it. And that’s what they did very consistently.

Naomi A. Randt [00:23:21] Were there ever any stories about authorities giving threatening or otherwise-?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:23:32] Oh, yeah. I think whenever the authorities had suspicions, they would let ’em know, and I would try to make sure that those weren’t ballot suspicions. And if they weren’t, just tell them. But yeah, they had some concerns, but they were able to, usually to talk about. But, you know, you can’t avoid that when every time you try to help someone, you’re trying to foment sedition. You know, it was a strange situation for us here in America to understand how can you serve people and the poor and the downtrodden and not be called a revolutionary? In a sense, you are, but that’s not our purpose. It’s not. Our purpose, whoever they are, that they poor and needy and we have to help them. Now, we used, as far as I’m aware, they try to convince them to do it appropriately, but that line gets very vague in those situations that are there. And it was a very difficult thing because if you were kind to people who were identified as rebels, the government was mad at you. If you were supportive of something the government was doing, the rebels would be mad at you. So those poor people were caught right in between, the people we were meant to serve. And it was just very difficult ministry. But they did a marvelous job. And to this day, the people revere them, I think because of that. They did stay, first of all, and they worked with them, and they also understood what they were going through. The poor people that suffered because they were brutalized, killed by one side or the other side.

Naomi A. Randt [00:25:34] I’ve heard that the Salvadoran people erected some kind of memorial.

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:25:39] They did. They, first of all, where they found the bodies, they erected memorial, and then they built a chapel. And that’s used to this day. It’s quite a revered place.

Naomi A. Randt [00:25:54] Where was the chapel built?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:25:58] I have to ask one of the missionaries, I’m not that familiar with the names of the areas they’re in. It’s near the site. And the people here supported that.

Naomi A. Randt [00:26:25] Did they give money?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:26:26] Oh, yeah. That was totally supported by charitable donations of the people of the diocese for these 40 years, 50 years. And we never- It always came. I mean, I never had any kind of campaign or anything. It came. People at diocese were great about it. And they realized, you know, in a lot of ways, we were blessed by here because of what we were doing there. I really believe that because of the work they did there, this whole diocese has been blessed. And people recognize that. A lot of the- Some of the parishes send young people there every summer to have an experience of that. And they really- One of my grand-nieces went. She really- She wanted to go every year after that. I mean, they really saw the value of doing that. And that’s the first time they had their eyes open to what, you know, they think they know what poverty means until they go into place like that, and then they know.

Naomi A. Randt [00:27:42] How did that make you feel? Just seeing-

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:27:44] I think it’s great. I think it’s very hard because you know, we have a great nation, but we think it’s normative for the whole world the way we live. And it’s not. It’s really not. But you can try to tell ’em that and show the movies or whatever, but until you go and live there- But once you go and live there, you understand that there is no place like this country. [laughs] I don’t care what the problems are.

Naomi A. Randt [00:28:15] Have you ever been down there yourself?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:28:16] Yes.

Naomi A. Randt [00:28:18] When did you go?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:28:19] Oh, I went several two times. I usually would go in the summer just to visit, but I remember the one that was most memorable. We had that orphanage there, and it taught me a great lesson. I went over to see the children and the people who were working there, and there was a little child sitting under a tree. So I went over and picked her up and carried her around a little bit. Then I was gonna put her down, and she wouldn’t go down. I couldn’t figure out what was going on. I couldn’t put her down. And the sister came up to me. She says, Bishop, you have to understand something. She’s not used to being held by another human being, and so when somebody holds her, she doesn’t want to leave that alone. I said, my goodness. You know, how blessed we are. I mean that especially the way I was brought up. I was smothered with love, and there’s that little child. That’s why we had to be there. I mean, where would she be if we weren’t there? She’d be on the street somewhere or dead.

Naomi A. Randt [00:29:31] Where is the orphanage?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:29:34] Is it Chirilagua? One of those, again, I, with all those names, left me.

Naomi A. Randt [00:29:47] Do you remember what year that was that you went down there?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:29:50] Well, it would be in the eighties, middle eighties, maybe once in the nineties.

Naomi A. Randt [00:30:02] What was your impression of the Salvadoran people?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:30:05] Oh, wonderful. I was very impressed with their faith, and despite all their poverty and all their problems, the liturgies were lively and expressive, and they were so grateful for the presence of our missionaries. Sometimes your thank yous are few and far between, but over there, everything you do they appreciate. And they loved our missionaries. They loved the church. That’s the only bit of decency and love and peace that they experienced, you know. They would walk for three, four hours to come to a mass from all the cantones all around. Just incredible. And the catechists did a marvelous job. Lake catechists. You know, they were- I remember going up to one of the mountains to see mass, an outdoor mass, and they had a chapel on one of the mountains, and there was a group of Salvadoran peasants reading an encyclical and having it explained to them, but I said, I wonder how many people back home read this encyclical, and there they were. But they’re wonderful people, very warm, very outgoing, and I can see why the missionaries want to be there. I mean, it’s a nice- It was a great place to be doing ministry.

Naomi A. Randt [00:31:43] I understand that there’s still a lot of commemorations.

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:31:48] Every year. Yeah, the Ursulines always have it. I think they still have one at the cathedral every year. The anniversary of our presence there or the anniversary of Jean and Sister death. They have it every year. I used to have that mass at the cathedral.

Naomi A. Randt [00:32:13] What were those masses like?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:32:17] A celebration. I have to say, I felt it was so hard on Sister Dorothy’s parents. Her father and mother were just crushed. She has a great brother and sister-in-law who have really dedicated themselves to preserve that memory, but it was so hard on the parents. The father was a broken heart, you know, but they are strong, faith-filled people. Just incredible. But it was that. You did feel some human sadness with regard to that. But I was very- It’s very impressed to see how the people wanted to celebrate that and saw the value of what they did. You know, it wasn’t, no one said- You know, they did something great. And it also, I think, inspired people to work for the betterment of peoples everywhere that we’re blessed in the United States. And because we’re blessed, we ought to reach out to people who are not as fortunate as we are. Everybody doesnt live in freedom, and everybody doesn’t have an opportunity for prosperity or advancement. And so these are things worth dedicating your life to. And you should not be focused just on your parish or your diocese or your country. If they’re poor, Jesus never told us you got to be concerned only for the poor here. He said, the poor. So no matter where they are.

Naomi A. Randt [00:34:14] Did you see more people who wanted to travel to other places to help out?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:34:19] I think so. I think because of that, because a lot of people want to go down and visit it. They get visitors all the time. In fact, for a while, it got to be a problem because they couldn’t do their ministry, but it does. And the schools do a great job in letting people know about that history. And so students want to go down there, and I think it affects the students. I think it affects the students. So they may not want to go down there, but they want to get into professions that maybe will make life better for everybody. And, you know, I always believed in that, and that was part of the reason why I wanted to support it. Even if you’re not a missionary or you’re not in El Salvador, a lot of these people, because they’re in great schools, our schools are excellent, and our graduates are going to be in very responsible places no matter what they choose to do. And if you get people in significant positions in society who have a moral view of what the world ought to be, you’re gonna have a better world. It may not be in El Salvador, but you can practice medicine differently. When poor people come into an emergency room, they ought to get the same treatment as self-paid. And so our hospitals try to do that. And the same thing. If you get elected office, there is a moral dimension to every issue, and it ought to be part of the discussion. And it isn’t that way. Or if you’re running a corporation, they’re in charge of who gets health care, who doesn’t, who gets treated fairly, and who doesn’t. So if you have a person with some moral sense making those decisions, workers are gonna be a lot better off than when it’s only a bottom-line person.

Naomi A. Randt [00:36:31] I wonder- I know it took a while and still kind of trying to find out the truth a little bit, but was there, I know that Ambassador White was particularly committed to that. Was there any sense on your end or the diocese itself, like the whole process of trying to find the truth? How did that work?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:36:55] It was hard. I mean, all the truth that I think I got was from Ambassador White and our missionaries who were there. The others were very reluctant to even talk about it.

Naomi A. Randt [00:37:12] Was there any sort of reaction to that? The fact that- I know at one point it seemed to indicate that, at least I’ve read, that the U.S. government almost blamed them for what happened. But was there any sort of outcry as to the way that-?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:37:30] There wasn’t any outcry, but, I mean, it was resented by the missionaries, of course, and I wasn’t happy with it either, but I don’t think it was appropriate for us to be politically involved. I certainly want to- I made it absolutely clear what I thought, but that was between me and them.

Naomi A. Randt [00:37:58] Did you have any personal contact with Ambassador White?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:38:02] Yes. Yeah, I talked to him and I saw him after he left. He’s a good person.

Naomi A. Randt [00:38:31] Normally, my interviews last longer, but I am- Is there more you can say about that?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:38:46] Well, I think, you know, the part that, you know, that you were talking about, it was a difficult time in the United States, you know, about. There was a lot of activity in Nicaragua, Honduras, Salvador. And so politically, it was a minefield for going down there. And everyone was concerned about the influence of outside influence there, especially Cuban and other things, and other entities, political entities. And so there was a certain suspicion that seemed to pervade Washington about anybody trying to make life better. They never saw it in that light. It was always rebellion against the government. And there were political reasons why they wanted to support the government. And if you get caught up in that, it can be very difficult, because it’s very difficult to really understand that until you’re involved. And then something like this happens and you see the cost of that involvement. They would say, you shouldn’t be there to begin with. Don’t you know it’s trouble area? Well, the church has always been in troubled areas. If we stayed out of trouble, we wouldn’t be a good church. You know, that’s- We’re sent not to people who have a nice life; we’re sent to the people who need us. But they don’t think that way. And I understand that. I mean, they’re politicians and they’re government officials. They think of national interest. That’s everything, the focus there. Something’s right or wrong if it serves the national interest. For us, it’s the truth, whether we like it or not. But that isn’t the way the system works.

Naomi A. Randt [00:40:52] Was that frustrating?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:40:54] Very. Yeah. Yeah. You always had to take a patience pill before you made those calls. But I understand it because, you know, I had some familiarity with political system, but that doesn’t mean I was supportive of it. Now, I imagine even some of our missionaries wanted me to be, but I just didn’t think- It’s never appropriate, from my perspective, for a bishop to get involved in the political process. It’s not good for the church, and it’s not good for the political process. It’s my [inaudible] to talk about values and ideas and needs, but I leave the politics to the politician. I let him know what I think, but in the appropriate context, I don’t get involved. But I had a number of conversations with them personally. Even the missionaries don’t know that. But partisan politics is not appropriate for us.

Naomi A. Randt [00:42:13] Was there support from the Vatican?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:42:18] Yes, very much so. The reason why we went there is because the Holy See asked dioceses in the United States to be concerned about Latin America and the people who were suffering because of all the turbulence in Latin America. But again, you know, the Holy See made clear why we should go there and what we should not get involved in.

Naomi A. Randt [00:42:54] What was their-?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:42:56] We are not to get involved in that civil kind of stuff that was going on. That was not the role of the church.

Naomi A. Randt [00:43:06] So pretty much the same thing that you-

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:43:07] Same thing.

Naomi A. Randt [00:43:14] Was there any sort of reaction from the Vatican after the four women were killed?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:43:20] Oh, certainly they sent condolences to the [families]. They were saddened by it because, you know, it’s. I wish I could say El Salvador was the only place that happened. It’s not. A number of religious were, the Jesuits in El Salvador, but all over the world. Many times in the world, when there’s that kind of turbulence and the religious presence there is trying to assist people who are suffering because of that turbulence, we get identified with one group or the other. You get it from both sides. On the right, you get it because you’re messing around and where you shouldn’t be, and you ought to get out. From the left, if you’re sympathetic you’re just being used by the government to manipulate the people. So that’s been since the beginning of time. When I hear people talk about the Middle Ages and so forth, they ought to know their history. The church was a very humanizing agency in the Middle Ages, but they talk about the Dark Ages and everything else. The [inaudible] brought any light in the so called Dark Ages in many ways, especially for women, chivalry was a religious concept.

Naomi A. Randt [00:44:47] I know you weren’t involved in sort of like the political discussion or anything like that, but was there any sort of community outreach or education as to what was-?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:44:58] Yes. Well, in our schools, there was a real effort in our schools, especially in Ursuline schools, just teach young people about what was going on in Latin America and why there was so much turmoil and, you know, trying to deal honestly and forthrightly about the injustices that were going on. You know, you can’t, you can’t deny the presence of some of that. Now, the solutions are different kinds of solutions. We’re there to change hearts. That isn’t the way governments work. They should, I think.

Naomi A. Randt [00:45:45] Was there any sort of outreach beyond sort of like the- [inaudible]?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:45:49] No, not the broader, not that I won’t there. Individuals have a number of the missionaries, when they came back, you know, spoke to all kinds of groups. And all of them, all of those people who were in El Salvador, I think every one of them never let go of it completely. They’ve been working in one way or another to meet the needs of the poor. And whatever was an appropriate way of getting involved in systematic change, they do, and there is an appropriate way.

Naomi A. Randt [00:46:26] What are some of those?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:46:28] Well, I think, first of all, you can advocate on the part of the needy. There’s no reason why you can’t. But you have to- Once you get into that arena, then you have to prepare yourself and deal with fact, not emotion. Preach. Once you insert yourself into that public discourse, it’s public discourse. You’re not giving a sermon and throwing a lot of pious phrases around. You got to know what you’re talking about, and you got to get the facts, and then you’ve got to argue from the truth and the facts as you know them. And that takes preparation, and that’s fine, and we should be involved in that. Everybody asks why we’re for healthcare and for decent wages. Why does the church talk about these things? Because we have to talk about those things. That determines the quality of life, and that’s what we’re all about. We’re not doing it as politicians, and we’re not doing it as, you know, part of a government. We’re doing it as a concerned society trying to work for the welfare of every human being.

Naomi A. Randt [00:47:57] Do you think that’s related to some of the changes from the Second Vatican Council?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:48:02] Oh, yeah. It was true of the church historically, but there were parts. The church has always been hurt when it got too close to those in power. Historically has never been good for the church, and it’s never been good for people in power, but there were always in the church the great figures who try to improve life for everyone. Vatican II certainly brought it systematically more to the forefront. The Church in the Modern World is a very strong document with regard to that. So I think that certainly had a great impact and still continues to have an impact, that the church needs to be involved. Because I said earlier, all these issues, there are political issues, there are economic issues, but all those things have moral consequences. Because when you say, well, healthcares’ a political- Yeah, well, it’s not a political issue. Everyone has a right to health care or jobs as a political- No, everyone has a right to earn a decent living for themselves and their families. You have a right for a quality education. It’s not just something that’s optional. That’s not optional. But you do have to be careful. You know, that’s the thing. I found that we can- Some people resent us, and some people use us when it’s convenient. I’m amused on what I hear in the media. I mean, the church is awful for the issues that they don’t agree, we don’t agree with them. On something we can be of assistance, all of a sudden we’re wonderful. You know, that’s just the way it is. But that’s why we have to be church. You can’t get involved. You can’t go with those wins. You have to know why they like you and why they don’t like you, and you can’t compromise that. You got to tell them the truth. And we’re not there for victories. Most of those groups are there to win something. We’re not there to win anything. We’re there to mutually and together search for the truth. That’s not, it doesn’t make any difference to whether I win or not but if I’ve done something to make the truth present, then that’s fine.

Naomi A. Randt [00:50:59] Do you have a lot of dealings with politicians in that regard?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:51:03] Yes. Yes. That was a regular part of my, you know, they always wanted to talk, which I was happy to do because that gave me a chance to help. There’s a lot of good people in the government, and there’s a lot of people who struggle daily with the tension between doing what works and doing what’s right. And how do you become, how do you stay a good Catholic and still do your job as Governor or Senator or whatever you are? That’s a struggle. You’re not working with people who appreciate that tension. The truth is what they need to say. I think the public discourse is very clear in present times.

Naomi A. Randt [00:52:02] I wonder if I could just take it back a little bit. The question just had occurred to me. After the four church women were murdered and sort of we have the twelve years of civil war, did you notice any changes in how the U.S.. government was involved in El Salvador?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:52:28] Well, I left in 2006. I thought it was far more peaceful my last few years as bishop than it had been before. I think part of that was due to the relationship of the government to El Salvador and to the whole situation in Latin America. It seemed less- Anxiety is not the good word for that. But there was not that same tension that seemed to be there that something big was going to erupt down there. I mean, as some of that waned a little bit, then the government attitude towards our folks there- But you know, the government is hard. You don’t always get someone who appreciates the church and its ministry. It’s not a familiar environment for them. And so you do have to be patient and try to help them understand because they’re not accustomed to. So what they’re accustomed to is, you know, what, many of them - I don’t mean to be offensive - many of the schools they went to have a bias about the church’s social involvement, and that’s all they know. They know what they’ve been taught or what they’ve seen. And, you know, Rome is always trying to control everything and Catholic Church is meddling and all that other kind of stuff.

Naomi A. Randt [00:54:10] Just the education that the people in El Salvador got there?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:54:14] Oh, sure, sure. I mean, that’s- They will get that. They went to the same schools.

Naomi A. Randt [00:54:24] Are those schools in El Salvador or are we talking-?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:54:27] They were all over, many of them educated here.

Naomi A. Randt [00:54:34] Where exactly?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:54:35] I don’t know, but I know they came to school here when they went back there. Many of them came here after, when they left there.

Naomi A. Randt [00:54:52] What was the mood like among the missionaries when that fighting finally did end?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:55:01] Well, when the fight did end, it was more, more, I think, more peaceful for them. I mean, they had to be on the edge all the time, and that was very stressful. I think that seemed to be more peaceful and more ministry directed. And they didn’t have to worry about as much as they did. They always had a worry how what they were doing was being perceived because it isn’t always as, you know, it’s not always a question of what actually has happened. It’s how it’s being perceived. And that’s why you have to be patient with people in the government. They hear something and they put that in the general category of who does this kind of activity, and if it looks like it’s them, then you are a rebel. That’s all. I mean, that’s what it is. You may not be, but that’s what they’re perceiving. And to deal with perceptions all the time is very difficult. They change all the time. So it seems that it’s more perceived now as what it is. It’s a service to the people of El Salvador.

Naomi A. Randt [00:56:20] I think that wraps up my questions. Is there anything else that you wanted to add or-?

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:56:25] [No.] I hope it was helpful.

Naomi A. Randt [00:56:26] I think so.

Bishop Anthony Pilla [00:56:27] Good. You have to deal with that. But most of it was concern that they would not be able to do what they’re doing because they knew there was no alternative. That if they left, the people, and that was the real, that was the real problem. You’re always trying to figure out what are you going to do? So it’s understood properly and no one’s going to take any kind of drastic action because they misunderstand it. And that’s hard. And it’s totally different than most people because you get into the whole thing with the rebels. You know, what happened with Che Guevara. All through Central America there, we see some of that now. When you have religious fanatics who want to die for that, you don’t get constructive kind of things. And so you have to be very careful about that. And that’s tension. It’s real tension. But God provides. That’s one thing.

Creative Commons License

This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 License.