Abstract

Diana Woodbridge grew up in Tucson, Arizona, and Shaker Heights, attended college at Miami University, and taught school for a short time in Painesville, Ohio. She discusses the struggle for fair housing in the Heights in the 1960s-70s and the formation of two key organizations: Forest Hill Housing Corporation and Heights Community Congress.

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Interviewee

Woodbridge, Diana (interviewee)

Interviewer

Klypchak, Timothy (interviewer)

Project

Provost Summer Program

Date

7-15-2015

Document Type

Oral History

Duration

69 minutes

Transcript

Timothy Klypchak [00:00:01] Good morning. My name is Timothy Klypchak, and I'm sitting with Diane Woodbridge in her home. Can you please state your name for the record?

Diane Woodbridge [00:00:09] Diana Woodbridge.

Timothy Klypchak [00:00:10] And where were you born?

Diane Woodbridge [00:00:12] I was born in Cleveland, Ohio.

Timothy Klypchak [00:00:15] And where did you grow up?

Diane Woodbridge [00:00:16] I grew up in Shaker Heights, Ohio, with a four-year term in Tucson, Arizona. And then back here when I was 8 in 1950, the big snow.

Timothy Klypchak [00:00:26] What was Shaker Heights like? That you remember?

Diane Woodbridge [00:00:31] Well, I would -- I lived on what they would call the other side of the tracks. I went to Lomond Elementary, lived between Scottsdale and Lomond and nice community, tree-lined streets. I lived in a double. My grandmother was down below and my mom and brother were upstairs. And so we were sort of an intergenerational family. I remember walking to school. I remember we did banking in school, things that sort of disappeared in recent days.

Timothy Klypchak [00:01:01] What-- why did you move to Tucson?

Diane Woodbridge [00:01:04] My mother and father split because my father was not particularly a responsible person.

Timothy Klypchak [00:01:12] And what was life like in Tucson, Arizona?

Diane Woodbridge [00:01:16] We lived on the-- what now is the middle of urban Tucson. But at the point where we lived, it was right on the edge of the desert. So very open, warm. Other than that, I don't remember a whole lot.

Timothy Klypchak [00:01:33] And when you moved from Arizona and came back, where did you move to?

Diane Woodbridge [00:01:36] Moved back to Shaker Heights so... And we lived above my grandmother. My grandmother was the wife of the Episcopalian priest, Reverend E.G. Mapes, that started Christ Episcopal Church in Shaker Heights. And he had passed away and grandmother really wanted her grandchildren back. So my mom came back.

Timothy Klypchak [00:02:03] Well, when your mother moved to Arizona, what was some of the jobs she had?

Diane Woodbridge [00:02:08] She was a secretary and when she moved back here, she ended up working for Dr. Earl B.K., who did the very first heart lung machine. So she had -- she was his executive secretary and handled everything for him. Did a lot of traveling when he would go to teach and show the heart lung machine, for example, in South America. She had the pleasure of going along. She edited books he wrote. Anyway, she really enjoyed that long career. She stayed a single mom our whole life dedicated, to her two children, me and my twin brother, David.

Timothy Klypchak [00:02:48] When you moved back to Shaker-- before we started, you mentioned the big snow. What was that?

Diane Woodbridge [00:02:52] 1950. All I remember was neighbors had to come and shovel from our house on Winchell Road down to Lomond and the milk truck finally got down Lomond. I mean, it stopped traffic dead in its tracks. I was only in fourth grade and I was fairly short, but I remember looking up at the snowbanks. So it was a big snow. Really exciting for a kid from Arizona that hadn't had snow for four years.

Timothy Klypchak [00:03:21] So did you stay in Shaker until the end of high school?

Diane Woodbridge [00:03:26] Graduated from Shaker Heights High School. Right. And went to Miami University.

Timothy Klypchak [00:03:31] What was school like at Shaker Heights?

Diane Woodbridge [00:03:35] Um, school was school. It was not an integrated school, particularly. I think we maybe had one-- since this is about integration, we had one African-American maybe in each of the classes. And that was sort of it. So upper-middle-class community, upper-middle-class school. My friends wore all what you would call preppy Ivy League dresses, Bobby socks, Spalding shoes. I go back a ways.

Timothy Klypchak [00:04:07] (Chuckles) Yeah, I'm not familiar with Spalding shoes.

Diane Woodbridge [00:04:10] (Chuckles) Black and white oxfords basically.

Timothy Klypchak [00:04:12] Um, what were some of the things you did together as a family as a kid? Places you went?

Diane Woodbridge [00:04:21] My uncle would take my brother fishing and we would occasionally go to Canada in a very rustic kind of cottage, which was wonderful. We didn't have a lot of money to spend. Mom was a secretary, so we didn't go a lot of fancy places. We, I think we went one time to Conneaut and one time she rented a place, sight unseen, down in, I think, North Carolina. And it was hideous. So we didn't stay too long. But I had a wonderful growing up. My aunt and uncle also lived with us, so we had a real intergenerational family and a male role model as well. And so, just had a good time. I mean, I biked. I had friends. I was never without something to do.

Timothy Klypchak [00:05:06] Uh, that was my next question. What was some of your favorite things to do?

Diane Woodbridge [00:05:10] Well, I played field hockey at Shaker Heights High School, and I play-- I was a girls leader and I played basketball and I had good grades and got the scholarship key. And I think I was on student council. I don't remember all of the activities, but there was-- were a couple of clubs. Y teams, I think, that participated at high school and then at the Y's. And I think we came over actually to the Y and in Cleveland Heights, that's now the part of the library.

Timothy Klypchak [00:05:47] What were some of the places around Shaker Heights that you would go to in high school?

Diane Woodbridge [00:05:53] Well, there was a neat-- we called it, the triangle. It was about four blocks away and they had outdoor shuffleboard. And we would just, as kids, we would just meet there and spend time hanging around, talking, playing shuffleboard. So that was one of the favorites. We also hung out at Shaker Square. Take the rapid down to Shaker Square with my girlfriends, and there was a record store that had listening booths and they would actually let kids come in and go into the booth with albums and listen, and we would spend hours doing that. There was bowling alley at Shaker Square. We would go bowling. It was down in the basement under near where the old Franklin Simons, which is now the Goodwill Industries, was. I don't know what's down in the basement now. I have no idea. But Shaker Square was kind of the place that we would hang out. There was also the-- obviously, the colony movies that are still there. And so a rapid ride to the movies was fun.

Timothy Klypchak [00:06:52] Is there any movie that you loved to go-- like, I just?

Diane Woodbridge [00:06:57] My memory doesn't hold on to things. I enjoy them, like books while I read them. And then I won't be able to tell you that the author five minutes from then. But I've really been a part of enjoying it. So I kind of move forward, I think not backwards.

Timothy Klypchak [00:07:15] Okay. After high school where did you go?

Diane Woodbridge [00:07:19] Went to Miami University and took elementary education to be a teacher because back at that time, women didn't have quite the same open opportunities and weren't encouraged as much. I mean, I had plenty good grades. I could have gone to any school, but I sort of felt like-- that Miami was more affordable for my mom. And I got through in three years, which was nice.

Timothy Klypchak [00:07:45] What was life like at Miami University?

Diane Woodbridge [00:07:50] Oh, it's a beautiful campus. I just actually went back for my 50th class reunion for a day and a half of it, not for real long, just because some special friends were coming back. It's a beautiful campus, very collegiate looking. The buildings are all in the same Georgian architecture. So it was a free time. You know, you don't worry about what's in the world. And it's kind of-- you have cinnamon rolls at Toughies and sororities-- I was a Delta Gamma there, and that was a nice -- making a bigger place seem smaller, as was being in the College of Education. Because I would have classes with the same people over and over again. And then there were some honoraries and things that I did that brought me in with smaller groups. But it was a very, I don't know, interesting time. My college roommate-- we were counselors in a dorm called Wells. And she was-- she eventually got herself off track, in my opinion. But she was a beautiful woman and very philosophical. And her name was Bernardine Dohrn, and she ended up as part of the Students for a Democratic Society, the SDS, that wrecked havoc here in Cleveland on the Clark tennis courts and things like that. I think what happened-- she got sick and went home and graduated from the University of Chicago in law and worked really hard for changing fair housing and getting some fair housing laws and then discovered that it really didn't make any difference. It doesn't-- law doesn't alter people's racism. It doesn't alter the hearts and minds of people. I think we shared the same values. We would just swing on the swings by Wells and talk. And so it was a very life-shaping time for me. We obviously went in different directions. She surfaced and is now doing good things with her background in law, even though I don't think she actually passed the bar.

Timothy Klypchak [00:09:50] Um, when did you graduate college?

Diane Woodbridge [00:09:53] Nineteen-- well, actually, 1962. I was the class of '63.

Timothy Klypchak [00:09:57] And from college. Where did you go?

Diane Woodbridge [00:09:59] I went to Painesville, Ohio. I got married and moved. We moved to Painesville, Ohio. We were both teachers and that lasted in two years until my first son was born. And I was teaching during the Kennedy assassination, which was again a really shaping thing in my life. We had to tell the kids. And the next day-- I had third graders. Some of the kids came back and I was trying-- and I was only 22. Trying to talk about how they felt about it and what their parents talked to them about. And a couple of my kids said their parents were glad he'd been assassinated because he was Catholic. You know, that just puts discrimination right square like a pie in your face. So that was also, I think, part of shaped who I was, who I am and what I cared about doing. And then I retired to have a baby, and my husband decided that teaching school was not the way to fund a decent life for his family. They didn't pay a whole lot. I think my first-- our first annual teaching salary was $4,800 a year. And of course, living costs were a little bit less back then, too. So anyway, we decided to-- he decided to go into business in some sort and started out with a company called Sherwood Refactories and moved from there. And eventually we decided to move into town closer to where he was working. And so that's what landed us eventually in Cleveland Heights. And again, that was a life-shaping kind of thing. I don't think I realized it at the moment, but we were clearly racially steered when it came to finding a house. We were looking in Shakerwood, which is south, just south of Shaker. It borders Shaker Heights, but it's actually in the city of Cleveland. And it was a lovely area of nice homes with decent-sized lots and all that. It was beginning to integrate. And all I remember was the realtor that was showing us around. And I don't remember how we even got to her. Saying, "well, you're making quite an investment. There are Black people moving into the neighborhood. Are you sure you want to look here?" And we did look. But you know that tape plays in your head. And we were making quite an investment. We were a young couple. Let me just -- so eventually we ended up in Shaker Heights with that. I mean, in Cleveland Heights with that tape playing in our head. Cleveland Heights at that time, its housing, and I think it's probably still true today. Its housing is a little less costly than was Shaker Heights. I mean, obviously, we might have naturally moved to Shaker Heights, having grown up there. But it was fortuitous, actually, that we ended up in Cleveland Heights. We bought our standard three-bedroom Cleveland Heights home and for a very reasonable price on Cambridge Road in Cleveland Heights and the Oxford School District. And we were there until the kids were actually grown and gone. Yeah. Then we moved once and now a second time.

Timothy Klypchak [00:13:20] While you lived on Cambridge, did -- is that when you began to get involved with the community?

Diane Woodbridge [00:13:25] Absolutely. Whole bunches of things were happening then. One was the-- a group called the Operation Bridge Nuns out of the Catholic Church and I think out of St. Margaret Mary, which was-- is now a closed Catholic Church, but was then very thriving for the neighborhood. Came knocking on doors in neighborhoods and said, and I may have this a little bit out of order. Said "the community is clearly beginning to integrate. You know, what we need to do is get out of our homes and meet our neighbors and do things to say we're going to stay and be part of it" and all of that. And so that was one shaping thing. That led to block parties. And I was instrumental in doing that sort of thing. Eventually, it led to street meetings and then neighborhood meetings where there was actually an official Oxford neighbors. It was staffed by actually Chip Bromley of the Heights Community Congress. And you may have interviewed Chip or maybe you will. A real fair housing guru. Yeah, and I was active on that. I don't know whether I was president or whatever, but I was very active in Oxford neighbors and we would bring in council people to talk about issues and, you know, and we would have programs on maintaining housing and that sort of thing. So that's, you know, one piece of my activity was in the neighborhood. The other big piece of my activity was-- we joined Forest Hill Presbyterian Church. I had grown up as an Episcopalian and always for some reason, my selection or what I'm-- what's kept me a part of a religious institution is a church that really walks the walk, that doesn't just yap about it, doesn't just talk the talk. It really gets involved in making a difference. And course, the times, the '60s were shaping times and integration was coming to Cleveland Heights. So there were a group of us at Forest Hill Church. I did a number of things. I was on the Adult Education Committee. I was elected to the session, which is the ruling body of the church from the Board of Church and Society and the Board of Church and Society's purpose was to do mission, you know, to be a part of the community. We wrote position papers on our church's commitment to be a part of its local community, to be a part of encouraging fair housing, open housing. We did a whole raft of-- and I actually have this book here if we want to look through it at any point. It kind of summarizes some of the things that we did early on with educational things for people. We did stuff on housing, fair housing. We did stuff on community change, on the role of street clubs and things of that sort, the positive role that those could play. And then eventually, and I'm probably going a little bit too fast through the history of the early days of Forest Hill Church...

Timothy Klypchak [00:16:29] That's fine.

Diane Woodbridge [00:16:29] But eventually we said we're tired of educating, you know, we really want to do something. And we were fortunate. Charles Ault, who has just recently passed away, was an attorney with his own firm, eventually ended up with Baker and Hostetler. But he was the church treasurer and church attorney. And so he was a little bit older than we were and much more experienced in how you get something together. So we wanted to do something. We formed a nonprofit, the Forestdale Church Housing Corporation, and it was officially chartered in 1971, September. And that was a year before the Heights Community Congress. Lots of activity was fomenting around. The issue of our community was changing. We all at Forest Hill Church-- we looked at East Cleveland. In three years, it turned from a White community to an all Black community, a really short order. And we said we think it should be different. You know, people need to learn to live together. We had-- the sessions studied a confession of the church called The Confession of 1967 that talked about reconciliation and the need for people to be reconciled one with another. And race was one of the issues of reconciliation. So was male, female and, you know, others. But race was a big one, and it was the one that touched our hearts. And we wanted Cleveland Heights to be a community where people could live together, where there would be a free flow. I remember, you know, real estate companies dumping out black kids to go knocking on the door and say, you know, community, you know. You walk up and down the street and then the realtor would follow and knock on the door and say, "you know, your community is going to integrate. Black people are moving in. Don't you want to list your house?" You know, that that kind of really blatant stuff and it really did. Blockbusting and steering really did happen. There was a Black family moved in around the corner on Northhampton from us, and shortly after moving in their garage was set on fire by people who didn't want them there, that kind of thing. I-- excuse me. Over the years, got to know some of the original African-American families into Cleveland Heights. Bernice Lott was one of them and she was president of the school board. And I have two experiences with her. One, we would do some adult education at other churches talking about the early days of Cleveland Heights. And Bernice and her husband couldn't buy the house directly. They had to have somebody get the financing for them because they were African-American. And I know that you've interviewed Doris Allen, who's another good friend, who was one of the very first Black families into Cleveland Heights.

Timothy Klypchak [00:19:18] Nobody has interviewed her yet...

Diane Woodbridge [00:19:22] You will.

Timothy Klypchak [00:19:22] But she's on the list.

Diane Woodbridge [00:19:23] Good, good. Because she's a dynamo and she continues to be a dynamo. Um, let's see. Where was I?

Timothy Klypchak [00:19:31] You were talking about Bernice Lott?

Diane Woodbridge [00:19:36] Oh, and the two things that I did. I did the adult education, whether that was such an eye-opening thing. To listen to somebody's story about not being able to buy a house in Cleveland Heights. One other thing I did shortly after moving to the community, and I don't remember who asked me, was I was asked to check real estate practices on rentals and there was an apartment complex. It's still there on Middlefield, just where down it was then down Oldsmobile, where the Toyota dealer is now.

Timothy Klypchak [00:20:05] I know, I'm so sorry for interrupting you, but--

Diane Woodbridge [00:20:07] That's OK.

Timothy Klypchak [00:20:08] I know that Kermit Lind when I was involved with doing that. Does that name sound familiar?

Diane Woodbridge [00:20:12] Oh, I know. I know Kermit very well. Yes, yes, yes. And he was director of the Congress for a while. But in any event-- I went to check there was an African-American woman who was told there was no apartment for rent at that complex. She worked at Cedar Lee for Ohio-- then Ohio Bell, and I went. And I must have been 22, 23, something like that. And this guy fell all over me. I mean, he would have-- he had two apartments he showed me that very day and then he called back later in the week and he had an additional one or two apartments that he would be happy to show me. But he had nothing for this woman, you know. Those are, again, the kinds of things that just hit you in the face. It's not fair. It's not just, and it really taught me that I am a privileged person just by virtue of my skin color. And that's not fair. So fairness and open housing and people learning to live together became the kind of call to ministry that was the start of Forest Hill Church Housing Corporation. And our first project was a buy and renovation of an old farmhouse that had been turned into a double house. It was right-- it was close to Nelaview on Taylor Road at the back end. What-- I don't remember exactly where I was when that phone rang. I should maybe just get rid of that phone.

Timothy Klypchak [00:21:38] It was that project with the uh--

Diane Woodbridge [00:21:40] Oh! Was a purchase and renovation. And we used a federal program. The 235 program, that after one house, Nixon declared a moratorium on that and that brought that to an end. But initially, the 235 program was providing housing to people who needed housing opportunity and who were of more modest means, lower-income. And the neighbors backed onto the Forest Hill neighborhood. Which I'm sure you know, by now, it had restrictive covenants. But-- until they were outlawed by the Supreme Court. If you weren't White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, you did not buy. You couldn't even-- you couldn't be Catholic, you couldn't be Jewish, but you certainly couldn't be African-American. And so it was obviously a neighborhood that had racial strong racism as its early days and history, which, you know, plays into the lives of people. Anyway, the neighborhood was up in arms. And so we called a community meeting and all I can recall was sort of feeling like I was hiding under the coffee table. And we let Mr. Ault run the meeting and he handled it magnificently. He was very straightforward. And he simply, as I recall, he simply said, we'll sell it to a qualified family. You know, it could be a black family, but it might not be. We will sell it to a qualified family. So we did-- the church gave us $5000 to get going and that was huge. We're not a church that has an endowment or had an endowment back at that point. We're trying now to build one, but we had nothing. So that was a big mission funding from the church. We ended up having-- we planned a ten-house project. We ended up having to spend the whole 5000 to finish this project in a way that we were pleased with it and felt we'd done the right job for the neighborhood. Plus we did-- we talked all of the different groups into the church into adopting volunteer projects, exterior painting, interior painting. All of the interior rooms were painted by volunteers. So it was a rather big undertaking. We came to a dead-end because Nixon said no more programs like that. And so then we called a meeting at church, to the best of my recollection, and brought together people who had originally been involved in Board of Church and Society and anybody interested in kind of brainstorm: where do we go from there? And we came up with what I think is the most-- the best program ever and one that should be still today in every community. It's-- we called it The Challenge Fund. And what it did and does still today is guarantee bank loans for Cleveland Heights homeowners who can't obtain conventional financing, either because they have no credit established or because of divorce, illness, job loss, they got credit screwed up and so they're not bankable. Originally, Charlie Ault got us connected, cause he was treasurer of the church, with the Cleveland Trust Company and with people at the upper echelon who could make decisions. We sat around a table at the Cedar-Lee-- at the Mayfield-Lee branch of Cleveland Trust Company with one of the vice presidents back when vice president was a very sparsely given title. Not as today. And we said, "here's what we'd like to do. We'll raise money. We'd like it to be a guarantee fund. We'd like you to write the loans. We would like to do the counseling so that we're sure that people can manage the payment and we'll make recommendations to you". And in turn, we ask the bank for what their commitment would be. And they agreed that we would not need to guarantee the full amount of the loan because they did not expect that they would all go down at one time. And so they said, "we'll take 60% of the risk. You guarantee 40%." And they leveraged our funds two and a half times. So we initially raised $10,000 to start the program and that we could then loan two and a half times that. The first loan we learned a lot from and we lost it and it was before we'd actually signed papers with Cleveland Trust Company. And we felt to fulfill our commitment to them that we should buy it out. So we did. And so then we started small: two loans the next year, all done by volunteers. And I did all of the counseling. And, you know, that sort of fulfilled my wish to be a part of an integrated community, because most of our clients were African-American people who didn't have-- had only financed with household financing and a conventional bank. For heaven's sakes, that's not conventional credit. So even if they had paid household finance, well, it wasn't sufficient credit to get financing to make home repairs. So the program grew over the years and it's done millions of dollars of home repairs enabled by guaranteed bank loans. And at our tenth anniversary of the housing corporation, Dell Duncan, from then, I think it was Ameritrust at that point. It may not have been. May still have been Cleveland Trust Company. He stood in front of that beautiful fireplace and he said, "I want you people to know that the track record on these high-risk loans, loans we wouldn't take without the guarantee, is better than our banks' track record on conventional loans." And so it was really proving to us that our contention, that if you give people an opportunity and provide them with education and choices and skills and, you know, all that sort of stuff, that the people want to be successful homeowners and given the opportunity, they can be. And so it grew over the years. I developed. I think some really good personal counseling skills and the ability to give people hope. And we would say at the end of, you know, going forward with the loan, you know, "this is an opportunity." And people were faithful and really struggled to pay back. We had, I think by the time I retired, five of the loans that went under and there were very few that went under, came back and repaid the organization in full. They had that commitment to the program. So The Challenge Fund, in my estimation, was the most significant thing I was part of doing with the housing corporation. We also developed other programs, and when the city got block grant funds, we were able to add some wonderful benefits that effectively made the interest rates 0% on loans to make it more affordable. And we had some special programs for elderly. And then we started a program called Project Repair that taught hands-on skills and still does today. It was done by staff in the old days, but finances have gotten so tight that now it's being taught by volunteer contractors and stuff. We started a program specially for single women with low-moderate income heads of house called Home How to For Women to teach them skills. And I'll tell you that the group would do things like rebuild a falling in back stairs to the basement, reroof a garage. They learn to do some rather significant repairs and felt so empowered to be able to fix something and not to have to rely on contractors or the men in their lives or that sort of thing. So the organization over the years has grown. I think it's-- it stayed really relevant. We've tried not to be-- we've tried to be really flexible and not to get that bureaucratic mid-age that a lot of nonprofits do. And my successor has continued and has been really instrumental in the foreclosure crisis. I started preaching from our experience at Home Repair Resource Center in 1995. That there were improper crappy mortgages out there. And if back then and in the year 2000, 2002, I was involved with a group through an organization called Noah. Of experts in various religious congregations that had experience with predatory lending. And we really tried to get banks to listen to us and regulators to listen to us. And that was way before the crunch in 2007, 2008. If people had listened way back then, we would have a very different world today. So, you know, we did try, but I guess that's sort of a stopping point to that point. I'll let you ask me another question. Yeah. You had said maybe it would be interesting to go back a little bit with the church. I mentioned the classes and I --that we-- the educational opportunities that we had. We must have done 10 or 15 different seminars, and the church also produced social teachings. And in 1968, Forest Hill Presbyterian Church, with our governing body this session, put out a statement regarding open housing and that we felt it was the right of all individuals to be recognized and protected and that housing opportunities should not be denied on basis of race. And that we were hoping that our community would be an open and integrated community. We did another statement that was about our responsibility to be a part of our local community and mission in action. And that, of course, was the one that kind of led to the housing corporation. So Forest Hill Church-- back then, the response came from the religious community and the non-profits that sprung up. Some, like ours, had the roots out of religious community, Forest Hill Church. The Heights Area Project was actually the first nonprofit into the scene and that was funded by the Jewish Federation. And it provided down payment assistance to young Jewish families to remain in the community, to buy a home in the community. And that's been always an important part of the diversity of Cleveland Heights. In previous times, when Jewish families moved out, as African-Americans moved in, the twain did not meet. But here we have neighborhoods in Cleveland Heights that have Jewish families and African-American families. And it's a beautiful thing. And that's what has sort of centered my life. I was involved way back when. This is taking a little different jag back to Bernice Lott. When she was president of the school board, I was invited to be on a committee. It was called the Integrative Education Committee. And our challenge was to propose what we thought would make a difference in keeping our schools as racially balanced as possible for the long term. And we came out with two substantial recommendations way ahead of their time. One was for magnet schools and that that was the other group. And my group came up with paring our schools so that we had a broader area to draw from. So, for example, we would have paired Oxford and Noble together and had a bigger area to draw. One would have been kindergarten, first and second, and the other would have been third through fifth or sixth. I can't remember which it was. So we had the pairing approach. I do think, had the board paid any attention to us, that that might have been a really out-of-the-box kind of approach to maintaining racial balance. Unfortunately, the board put us out in front of the community. They never priced out the options. And four of us were on the panel that got to go talk to the community about it -- Would you like to have me close these windows?

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