Two separate oral histories by three participants discuss their experiences at Camp Mueller as a way for the interviewers to practice their questions and tweak lines of discussion. Having attended or having had descendants who attend the camp throughout the decades, each of the interviewees recalls why they went to camp, their experiences while there, and how it impacted their lives after leaving.


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Nevilles, Janet (interviewee); Dickson, Alice (interviewee); Landrum, Sherrai (interviewee)


Tebeau, Mark (interviewer)


Phillis Wheatley Association



Document Type

Oral History


78 minutes


This interview is available to researchers by request only. Please contact CSU Department of History.


Transcription sponsored by Cuyahoga Valley National Park

Mark Tebeau [00:00:05] Now, it's picking up. Alright, real quickly, I'm just going to ask you to introduce yourself and speak up and kind of lean forward in the mic, if you would, please. That would record it more clearly.

Janet Nevilles [00:00:20] Janet Nevilles.

Alice Dickson [00:00:27] You want me to go? Alice Dickson.

Mark Tebeau [00:00:27] Okay. You guys sound just fine. So, Jennie, one of the things that might be nice is if you told, you or Jackie, told the ladies about the project and what our goals were and why we are recording it.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:00:44] Okay. So I'm Jennie Vasarhelyi and I work at Cuyahoga Valley National Park and Camp Mueller is in the boundaries of the park. And one of the things that happens in the park today is a lot of camping programs. We have Cuyahoga Valley Environmental Education Center where Stacey works. And what we are trying to do is learn more about camping that happened before the park was established as a park in 1974. So we actually got a grant to come talk to people about Camp Mueller, especially people who were there, you know, in the '30s, and '40s, and '50s. And what we're doing today is a kind of a dry run where we're testing questions. So we're asking questions that have never been asked before. And one of the things we'll want from you is your suggestions on questions. You know, are we asking the right questions? Are there other questions we should be asking? But really what we mostly want to have happen today is for you to talk about your experience at Camp Mueller and your memories of later in life, how you've been thinking about Camp Mueller. What kind of place in your life it ended up having. I should introduce the other people here. Obviously, you can tell from Tina Vaughn Brady works with the park and we're going to host some events. We're going to train kids to do the oral histories and Brady is going to help with that. Stacey Heffernan is here with the Environmental Education Center. Again, since we run camp programs today, we like hearing about what's happened in the past and Phillis Wheatley Association has been really generous in helping us.

Alice Dickson [00:02:38] Okay.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:02:39] Do you have anything you want to add?

unknown speaker [00:02:39] No, I think I talked to them about it last Friday.

Alice Dickson [00:02:39] Yeah.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:02:43] Excellent. Excellent.

Mark Tebeau [00:02:47] And I'm Mark Tebeau. I'm a professor at Cleveland State and we collect oral history of the region, sort of people stories about the things we did growing up in the '30s, '40s, '50s and later, earlier. So, and you're part of those stories. Now, what we're going to do is this is a test interview. Later on, we'll probably interview you again. But when we do that interview, we'll do a really nice quality interview. That's why we use the recording equipment. And we will actually put it in an archive and we'll give you a CD-ROM of that, those memories that you can share with the family, with your family or friends. And it's, you know, how everybody always talks about, oh, I'd love to interview my grandparent, my aunt, my cousin, you know, who had some great experiences. Well, nobody ever does. And so it's kind of permanent family record as well. So, Tony, you're going to lead us.

Tony [00:03:48] Okay. Hello, Ms. Dickson. I wanted to start with some basic introductory questions just to give us sort of a biographical feel. Please give us your full name.

Janet Nevilles [00:04:04] Full name? Janet Marie Nevilles.

Alice Dickson [00:04:09] Alice Dickson.

Tony [00:04:12] Thank you and I apologize for asking these questions. I was always raised not to ask a woman these questions. But just for the purpose of the...

Janet Nevilles [00:04:18] [Laughs]

Tony [00:04:20] Please let us know how young you are.

Janet Nevilles [00:04:24] 79.

Alice Dickson [00:04:24] 87.

Tony [00:04:29] And are you both originally from Cleveland?

Janet Nevilles [00:04:33] I am.

Tony [00:04:35] Okay.

Alice Dickson [00:04:35] No, I'm not.

Tony [00:04:38] Where are you from, Ms. Dickson?

Alice Dickson [00:04:38] Georgia.

Tony [00:04:38] Georgia? What part?

Alice Dickson [00:04:41] Fitzgerald.

Tony [00:04:41] Oh, okay.

Alice Dickson [00:04:44] Ben Hil County.

Mark Tebeau [00:04:47] How'd you come to Cleveland?

Alice Dickson [00:04:48] Well, I was getting ready to go to New York. And my aunt here, she wanted me to come here instead of going to New York.

Mark Tebeau [00:04:57] And when? When was this?

Alice Dickson [00:05:00] '45.

Mark Tebeau [00:05:03] 1945. And you're, where were you born in Cleveland? Here in town?

Janet Nevilles [00:05:08] Yeah. Oh. I don't know what hospital. I guess Metro.

Mark Tebeau [00:05:16] But, where did you live, both of you? When you were in Cleveland in the '40s?

Alice Dickson [00:05:20] I wasn't here.

Janet Nevilles [00:05:22] I lived in the Phillis Wheatley.

Mark Tebeau [00:05:22] Okay.

Janet Nevilles [00:05:25] From 1945 to 1970. It was an all-women dormitory and they closed it and they made, converted it into apartments. In '72. And none of us were living there really. We didn't move back. I had a chance to move back, some of us, but we choose not to.

Alice Dickson [00:05:49] I lived several locations, but when I went to Camp Mueller, we were living on 29th.

Mark Tebeau [00:06:01] 29th and?

Alice Dickson [00:06:03] Between Scovill and Woodland.

Mark Tebeau [00:06:07] What are your memories of the neighborhood back then? And then I'll turn it. This is what I'm most interested then I'm going to turn the questions back to Tony.

Alice Dickson [00:06:19] Everybody. Well, kids get to know everybody and I was a kid then. It seemed like everybody knew everybody. They were friendly. It was a, it was mixed. It was white and black lived on our street.

Tony [00:06:52] So at what time did you attend Camp Mueller? Around what year?

Alice Dickson [00:06:52] About what?

Tony [00:06:54] I said, what year?

Alice Dickson [00:06:54] I don't know what year? But I was twelve. [laughs]

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:06:56] Let's at least get that right. How old were you when you went to Camp Mueller?

Janet Nevilles [00:07:02] It was '42.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:07:08] Okay.

Tony [00:07:08] '42. Yeah. That was around World War II, correct?

Janet Nevilles [00:07:09] Yeah.

Alice Dickson [00:07:09] Yeah.

Tony [00:07:09] Okay. Just out of curiosity, what was your feelings, you know, participating in the camp environment while our world is at war?

Janet Nevilles [00:07:20] Well, I didn't think about the war then. I was thinking about coming to Camp Mueller. [laughs]

Tony [00:07:24] Sorry. [laughs]

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:07:30] That's actually, you know, the night before do you remember how you felt...

Alice Dickson [00:07:33] Yeah.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:07:33] Right before you went to camp, what were you thinking?

Alice Dickson [00:07:37] Oh, oh, I was, I was excited and I really don't know what I was thinking, but getting ready. And I have a twin sister. We went together, so that wasn't too bad.

unknown speaker [00:08:03] At that time did Phillis Wheatley transport, put you on a bus? I know at one point they had a bus.

Alice Dickson [00:08:03] Yep. Yeah.

Tony [00:08:03] When did you attend Camp Mueller?

Alice Dickson [00:08:11] Pardon?

Tony [00:08:12] When did you attend Camp Mueller?

Alice Dickson [00:08:12] Back in the '40s.

Tony [00:08:16] Oh, okay.

Alice Dickson [00:08:16] About '47.

Tony [00:08:22] What were your experiences about the camp?

Alice Dickson [00:08:22] Well, we went out for outings and picnics and things like that. Sometimes we would go and spend the night. From the Phillis Wheatley and some of the people from the 'Y' up on 75th and Cedar.

Tony [00:08:50] Now, with Camp Mueller, was there any other programs around the time that afforded the opportunity for inner-city children to go to a camp like that?

Alice Dickson [00:08:50] Well, we had a lot of activity going on here in, in the main building for the residents and a lot of programs in the main building during that time. They called it the Ford House. That was downstairs where the business meeting, several business meetings, lotteries, reception parties going on over there. And so it was very active around here, very active, because during the time we had a lot of executives and lawyers and people donate a lot of money and you had to keep, keep the program going and that's why they... And this is why they had... All the board meetings were held here and so they didn't go outside and have no meetings. They had them here or either in the Ford House. They didn't wanna have a lot of expensive entertainment. They did it all in the park in this initial stage,.

[00:09:49] The difference is you have the experience of a young woman going to camp and a child that went to camp so that's...

Mark Tebeau [00:10:00] Different age group. You were... Oh, pardon me. You were shaking your head when you said were there other opportunities.

Alice Dickson [00:10:04] Yeah. There, there wasn't no opportunity like they had Camp Mueller. No.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:10:13] Can you just describe the experience at Camp Mueller? What did you do while you were there?

Alice Dickson [00:10:20] We went hiking. We had campfires, sit around and tell stories. We went swimming. They tried to teach me how to swim. My twin sister learned. She was able to learn, but not me. [laughs]

[00:10:47] Were you in cabins or tents or?

Janet Nevilles [00:10:47] Cabins.

Alice Dickson [00:10:47] Yeah.

Mark Tebeau [00:10:47] Describe the cabin that you remember.

Alice Dickson [00:11:00] I think, I think they were tents. They were tents.

Mark Tebeau [00:11:04] Well, describe what's your memory of that tent?

Alice Dickson [00:11:09] Oh. It remind me of the Eskimo house. [laughs] They were built like the Eskimo. And we would lay up and tell stories to each other. You know, it was a group of girls. It was about maybe five or six in one tent. And we would. I... I don't know. I can't remember.

Tony [00:11:54] That's okay because basically what you are doing is just sharing with us or reminiscing about, you know, your experiences at camp. You know the fun things that occurred, you know?

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:12:05] Did you like it while you were there?

Alice Dickson [00:12:08] Yes.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:12:09] How were your, you know, what were you thinking and feeling while you were there?

Alice Dickson [00:12:15] Oh, I was. Well, we, we stayed there for two weeks. And each day we wanted to know what we going do for the next day.

Tony [00:12:41] Do you have any recollection of the staff? Do you remember, like, your favorite counselor or you know?

Alice Dickson [00:12:49] Yeah, I wouldn't remember their names, but they were really, really nice.

Tony [00:12:58] Let's see.

[00:12:59] Ms. Nevilles, while Tony is thinking of his question, is this what the tents looked like? You can see it?

Alice Dickson [00:13:13] Uh. Is that a tent? Can you?

Alice Dickson [00:13:26] I wish I knew... [crosstalk - inaudible]

Alice Dickson [00:13:30] Yeah.

[00:13:31] That's it?

Alice Dickson [00:13:32] Yeah. I've been there. I've been to camp.

Tony [00:13:39] So, would you like go with army tents?

Mark Tebeau [00:13:46] So, now as you went to camp as a 20 something or 20, 18?

Alice Dickson [00:13:54] I was 20, about 24, something like that, 23.

Mark Tebeau [00:13:56] How is your experience different as someone who wasn't an adolescent?

Alice Dickson [00:14:01] Well, let's say, you know, we went out, it was adult when we went. It was adult when we went out, went out there. We went out a few times for other activity. But mostly it was adults when we went out.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:14:18] Do you remember how you were selected to go to Camp Mueller? Like why? Why did you go when you went?

Janet Nevilles [00:14:30] Oh. I guess my mother made arrangements for me to go all I know is that I was going.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:14:46] And then you just went the one time. Is that?

Janet Nevilles [00:14:49] Yes.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:14:50] Okay.

Janet Nevilles [00:14:50] Yes.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:14:51] Do you know? Do you, can you imagine why your mom wanted you to go? What she was hoping would happen for you?

Janet Nevilles [00:15:00] Oh. Something to do because there wasn't nothing to do then in those days. We used to shoot marbles, play little baseball in the street. There really wasn't nothing to do. She wanted us to go and enjoy ourselves. We did.

Mark Tebeau [00:15:36] Did you go just the one time or did you go?

Janet Nevilles [00:15:39] Just the one time. Because they took them, they took them up to twelve. And I was twelve when I went.

Alice Dickson [00:15:50] I think with some kind of program set up, had something to do with the foundation set up the. I don't know how it was set up, but I will living in it at the time but I, it has something to do with the foundation that set up the camp for the summer with the [inaudible] program. And I don't know how it was set up but I know the camp had something... the foundation had something to do with it. Yeah, with the program.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:16:21] You know, one of the things that I'm wanting to know about is later in life, when you've thought back about your experience at Camp Mueller, what did, what did you think about it? Is it something you thought about a lot and, you know, have fond memories of?

Janet Nevilles [00:16:39] Yeah, yeah. I thought about it quite often later, later in life.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:16:46] And what, what do you think about when you think about it? What goes through your mind?

Janet Nevilles [00:16:51] I thought about the... I'm trying to think if we had horses or not. I'm not sure. And, and this stayed on my mind a lot. The swimming stayed on my... The pool stayed on my mind a lot.

Tony [00:17:19] So did you ever learn how to swim?

Alice Dickson [00:17:20] Nope. [laughs]

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:17:21] What about the pools stayed on your mind?

Janet Nevilles [00:17:25] Well, the counselor had a long stick trying to teach me to float. And she was at one end, I was at the other end. And that's all I can remember is she would tell me to put my head underwater and try to float. That's all I can remember.

Tony [00:17:52] Activities, other than swimming, did you guys, did you recall...

Janet Nevilles [00:17:54] Oh. We, we.

Tony [00:17:57] Any arts and crafts?

Janet Nevilles [00:17:57] Yeah, we did that, too.

Alice Dickson [00:17:58] We had a lot of that.

Janet Nevilles [00:17:59] Yeah.

Alice Dickson [00:17:59] In the main building.

Janet Nevilles [00:17:59] Yeah. Yeah.

Alice Dickson [00:18:01] Back in the '40s and '50s they had a cosmetology school here, sewing class, had all that. Of course that was in the Ford House, the sewing class. They had a big power machine. You go could go over and take them. Learn how to work the power machine. Wind up with a job or they had a lot of activities.

unknown speaker [00:18:24] Excuse me, Ms. Nevilles. When you were at Camp Mueller, was it co-ed? Were there boys and girls there?

Janet Nevilles [00:18:28] No.

unknown speaker [00:18:29] So all girls?

Janet Nevilles [00:18:29] Yeah. Yep.

unknown speaker [00:18:34] And Ms. Dickson, some of the activities you were just talking about, did you do those on the camp as well?

Alice Dickson [00:18:39] No, I didn't go because at the time I was working and going to school too, and on weekends. No all weekend. They sent there on a Friday, a Saturday. I would go out there some time. Most of my time was taken, was taken up.

Janet Nevilles [00:18:56] Sherrai just came in.

Alice Dickson [00:19:01] Most of my time was taken up because I was working six, five days a week and going to school three nights a week and so I really didn't have too much time on hand.

Mark Tebeau [00:19:12] Where were you going to school?

Alice Dickson [00:19:14] Down here. I get my high school diploma. [GED.] I was going to John Hay and I was working at Cleveland Clinic.

Tony [00:19:29] So other than your sister, did you have any other family or friends who attended Camp Mueller along with yourself?

Alice Dickson [00:19:34] No, just my sister.

Tony [00:19:40] Did you get an opportunity to make new acquaintances while you were at camp?

Janet Nevilles [00:19:41] Yeah. One, one friend stood out and I think of her a lot. She was an Indian, but she was really, really nice. That's the only one I remember.

Mark Tebeau [00:19:55] What was her name?

Janet Nevilles [00:19:55] I don't remember.

Mark Tebeau [00:19:57] Why did you like her?

Janet Nevilles [00:20:01] One thing. She was, she was sort of afraid. I guess it was first time being away from home. And I had my sister. So everything was alright with us. And she would always stay with us. So that's one reason I liked her.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:20:30] How long were you all there?

Janet Nevilles [00:20:30] Two weeks.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:20:31] Two weeks?

Janet Nevilles [00:20:31] Yeah.

Mark Tebeau [00:20:31] Was that the first time you had been away from home?

Janet Nevilles [00:20:36] Yes. But my sister was with me, so I was, I was 15 minutes older than she was, but she was like an older sister to be.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:20:54] And what were your impressions of the environment of the camp? The, the nature of.

Janet Nevilles [00:21:00] Oh, it was beautiful. It was really nice.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:21:04] Did it seem familiar to you or did it seem like a place you'd never been to before?

Janet Nevilles [00:21:09] A place I had never been before.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:21:12] What kind of memories do you have of the way it looked?

Janet Nevilles [00:21:25] I can't remember.

unknown speaker [00:21:32] Oh, it got dark.

Janet Nevilles [00:21:32] Huh?

[00:21:32] It got dark outside.

Janet Nevilles [00:21:32] Oh, yeah. That's where we would build the campfires, sit around and talk.

Mark Tebeau [00:21:42] What...

Janet Nevilles [00:21:42] Laugh. Sing.

Mark Tebeau [00:21:43] What songs did you sing?

Janet Nevilles [00:21:47] I don't remember.

Mark Tebeau [00:21:50] Do you remember any of the stories you told? Were they ghost stories?

Janet Nevilles [00:21:57] No.

[00:22:02] What about the sounds in the environment. Did it seem noisy to you or did it seem really really quiet?

Janet Nevilles [00:22:09] Oh, it wasn't noisy. And it wasn't quiet. It was just natural.

Tony [00:22:22] Do you think your participation in Camp Mueller was positive?

Janet Nevilles [00:22:24] I think so. I think it was. My, my twin sister, she was here, she could remember everything better than I can.

unknown speaker [00:22:45] Did you guys, when you were girls, when you were at camp did you go to the state park or the.

Janet Nevilles [00:22:53] No.

unknown speaker [00:22:53] Stayed on the camp?

Janet Nevilles [00:22:53] Yeah. Stay right there.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:22:59] How would you say your experience there was important to you then or later in life?

Janet Nevilles [00:23:24] I don't know what you mean.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:23:28] [I] just am curious to know when you think back on it. Did it, did it? Mark, you might be able to help me here.

Mark Tebeau [00:23:40] So most, many people report... I never went to camp as a child and my wife did. Now my wife tells me that she's a better person for having gone to camp. So I think that's the thrust of the question, which is, is there something about the camp experience that changed you in a way that you were, that you can recall?

Tony [00:24:03] Did you enjoy the camaraderie with fellow, you know, campers? Establishing a bond with you and your sister stronger because you guys were supporting each other.

Janet Nevilles [00:24:17] Yes, I felt strong, stronger in that sense. And. Maybe, maybe I don't know whether it changed me or not.

Mark Tebeau [00:24:35] [Crosstalk] A great answer. Let me ask you both about a couple other questions about the neighborhood and growing up in this part of Cleveland in this era. Where did you go to church? Do you remember where?

Janet Nevilles [00:24:48] We went to several churches.

Mark Tebeau [00:24:49] Which ones?

Janet Nevilles [00:24:51] I can't remember. 'Cause my father was a preacher, and I don't know the name of the church.

Mark Tebeau [00:25:04] Were your parents from Cleveland?

Janet Nevilles [00:25:05] No.

Mark Tebeau [00:25:07] Where did they come from?

Janet Nevilles [00:25:09] My mother was from Memphis, Tennessee. My father was from Nashville.

Mark Tebeau [00:25:17] And did they meet here?

Janet Nevilles [00:25:24] Yes. Yeah. Because she was young when she got here.

Mark Tebeau [00:25:33] And then. Ms. Dickson, what... When you came, where did you attend church?

Alice Dickson [00:25:41] Right across the street.

Mark Tebeau [00:25:42] What was the name of that?

Alice Dickson [00:25:42] Lane Metropolitan.

Mark Tebeau [00:25:46] And what was it like living in this all-girl, all-female, all-women's [environment] dormitory?

Alice Dickson [00:25:52] It was nice.

Mark Tebeau [00:25:54] What was nice about it?

Alice Dickson [00:25:57] Well, we had rules and regulations. They were very restrictive. If a man was looking for a wife, he came here. A lot of 'em married very fine women out of here, only seventh, eighth and ninth floor. That was the professional floor. Nurses, doctors, and school teachers lived on those floors. And from the fifth floor down, I think the fifth floor down many people working a lot of different jobs like hospitals, restaurants, and places like that. And weirdly, it was very busy. We had dances downstairs on a Friday night. You can invite your friends. It started at seven and it closed at twelve. [It was] very active during that time. And we also had parties for the residents. Picnics and also, if you want a job, I wanted it. If you told them where you live, you could get it. You can get it. It wasn't no problem.

Mark Tebeau [00:27:20] Why was that?

Alice Dickson [00:27:21] Well because the Phillis Wheatley had a very, a very high standard back in that time. And you were well recognized around the city. All the department stores, they recognized you had you been living here. They gave you priority about a lot of thing. Where did they. You cannot, cannot get it. It had been a high priority. Recall majority board member was like doctors and lawyers? And people they, they, they had connections in here, and that's why if you told them in a way you live there. If you are looking for credit or a job. As long as you didn't have anything on your record. You could... Very highly spoken of.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:28:19] So what was the reputation of Camp Mueller in general?

Alice Dickson [00:28:24] Well, the camp, the camp was.... They didn't have all the activities out there they have now. It was a much smaller place than what it is. Quite smaller. And they kept in the, in the summer, but like not have not activities going on out there. We didn't have that back in that time. But it was, it was supported.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:28:50] Ms. Nevilles, what did you see as the reputation of Camp Mueller? Like how did the community see it?

Janet Nevilles [00:29:04] The community? What?

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:29:06] Do you have a sense of how people...

Mark Tebeau [00:29:10] Why did your mother choose Camp Mueller?

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:29:10] Yeah. A good way of putting it.

Janet Nevilles [00:29:14] Well, that was the only camp we could have went.

Mark Tebeau [00:29:17] Okay. So she wanted you to have a camp experience. Well, why do you think she sent you?

Janet Nevilles [00:29:28] Evidently it was advertised. She signed, signed me up to, us up to go.

Mark Tebeau [00:29:35] Did it cost her money?

Janet Nevilles [00:29:38] I don't... No. Didn't cost her anything.

Jennie Vasarhelyi [00:29:53] What other kinds of things did your mom sign you up for when you were young? What did she like you to do?

Janet Nevilles [00:29:56] I liked music. And she would pick out a music school for me to go to. It was one. What's the name of that place down on 22nd and Woodland? It's...

Tony [00:30:05] Let's see. 22nd and Woodland? That's over by...

Mark Tebeau [00:30:18] Cleveland State. [laughs]

Tony [00:30:18] Tri-C.

Janet Nevilles [00:30:23] Yeah, but this is further down.

Mark Tebeau [00:30:25] Like the Scouts?

Janet Nevilles [00:30:27] Yeah, it was it's Boy Scouts now. Yes. Boy and Girl Scouts whatever. But then it was called Hiram House. Yeah. That's where I first started taking music lessons there. And...

Tony [00:30:49] What instrument?

Janet Nevilles [00:30:49] Huh?

Tony [00:30:49] What instrument?

Janet Nevilles [00:30:50] No, piano.

Tony [00:30:50] Oh, okay.

Janet Nevilles [00:30:50] Yeah.

Alice Dickson [00:30:55] There used to be a building, a middle school back in there. They did over there.

Tony [00:30:58] Oh, okay.

Alice Dickson [00:30:58] You know, then they got to go out there and sell tickets because the lady. She's one of the board members. She had left, in a trust fund, she had left some money but for the music school to be built once they had enough money. Yeah and so when they got enough money, then they built that school. It was one of the board members had left in a trust fund.

Janet Nevilles [00:31:22] So my mother. She sent me to private lessons on 105th and Superior. I went there until her money ran out. Then, she had a, I had a teacher come to the house and teach me. And all of this. But at 16, I played on the remember Bert's amateur show. No, you wouldn't remember. But it was something like something like Gene Carroll. Remember Gene Carroll? Used to be on TV.

Alice Dickson [00:32:12] I remember.

Janet Nevilles [00:32:12] Okay. It was Bert's amateur was like that. Only it wasn't on TV. It was on the radio. And I went there and auditioned. And they called me and I played a little thing I made up. And my cousin, he, he helped me. He gave me the beginning and the end. And I went on the radio there and played it. And they called me back when I was 18 to do it again. Then I played at the, there was a theater on 55th and Euclid. They had an amateur night there. I played there. I came in fourth.

Mark Tebeau [00:33:06] Sounds like your piano lessons went better than your swimming lessons.

Janet Nevilles [00:33:11] Yeah!

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