Abstract
Russel Atkins discusses his work as a poet and the relationship of the arts to the city of Cleveland. A graduate of Central High School, Atkins remembers Cleveland as an artistic hub and historicizes artistic movements in the city that was home to Langston Hughes and the "Black Arts Movement," the Ohio Poetry Society, Freelance Magazine and other publications, and beatniks. Atkins' poetic accomplishments and publications in magazines such as Experiment are situated alongside his discussion of Cleveland's cultural institutions such as Cleveland Public Library, Cleveland Institute of Art, and the Karamu Theatre.
Interviewee
Atkins, Russell (interviewee)
Interviewer
Gibans, Nina (interviewer); Yanoshik-Wing, Emma (participant)
Project
Project Team
Date
1-1-2006
Document Type
Oral History
Duration
71 minutes
Recommended Citation
"Russell Atkins interview, 2006" (2006). Cleveland Regional Oral History Collection. Interview 999014_909001.
https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/crohc000/976
Transcript
Nina Gibans [00:00:13] Now, remember, you’re allowed to throw out any question you do not like. You’re allowed to enhance any question you want to. You’re allowed to talk about anything you think I have forgotten and all of that. So it’s not so airtight that- What I did, though, on page two, Lolette Kuby asked you at this time, this time here, the questions that you answered this way. And so I just copied your answers.
Russell Atkins [00:00:44] I’m not sure why. Answers now would be the same.
Nina Gibans [00:00:48] The page after your notes. You don’t have that?
Russell Atkins [00:00:54] Yeah, I have that. [crosstalk] The next page is-
Nina Gibans [00:00:57] That’s the most important page. You think we’re sort of ready to begin?
Russell Atkins [00:01:02] I guess just a glance at this last page here.
Nina Gibans [00:01:08] Okay. That’s the poetry project that I talked to you about, the history of poetry.
Russell Atkins [00:01:14] Oh. I see.
Nina Gibans [00:01:14] So you can read that at home. But if you have any, any thoughts, anything you think we should add. But today is about you. And I feel that it is so important to bring this, you know, your statements, your recollections to the picture that that’s where I started. [pause] And everybody’s thrilled and they all say hello.
Russell Atkins [00:01:48] Oh, they did? [laughs]
Nina Gibans [00:01:51] Mary Weems is working with me and actually she teaches here at Cleveland State. Larry Smith from Bottom Dog Press, Ron Antonucci at the library. They all think it’s absolutely terrific. So, upon that note of honor. [laughs]
Russell Atkins [00:02:24] What do we start with? This page?
Nina Gibans [00:02:27] Yes. And I don’t read it. I just converse with you. It works kind of that way. But these are my questions, more or less. Russell, you’re from Cleveland, right?
Russell Atkins [00:02:45] Yeah. Yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:02:46] So where were you born? Where did you go to school? What is your neighborhood?
Russell Atkins [00:02:52] Well, let’s take one. Where was I born? I was born in Cleveland, and the neighborhood was- My childhood, you mean kind of? Yeah, was kind of Cedar Avenue and Carnegie. We lived there in what was known as the Emerald Terrace. It was- Are you- Terrace? Yeah, it was.
Nina Gibans [00:03:24] Apartment building?
Russell Atkins [00:03:25] Yeah, it was an apartment building. [crosstalk] No, no. Cedar and 71st.
Nina Gibans [00:03:35] Are they still there?
Russell Atkins [00:03:37] The apartments are still there, yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:03:39] Right. Okay.
Russell Atkins [00:03:41] They don’t look the same, I can tell you. But they’re still there. Well, that’s years and years ago, after all. [laughs]
Nina Gibans [00:03:46] Yes. You’re celebrating your 80th birthday this year?
Russell Atkins [00:03:52] Yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:03:54] When is that?
Russell Atkins [00:03:56] No, no, my 80th birthday came. I always get- I have to think about this. This is 2006. Yeah. Yeah. This year. Yeah, 80th.
Nina Gibans [00:04:11] So did you celebrate earlier this year?
Russell Atkins [00:04:13] I never make any plus over my birthday. [laughs]
Nina Gibans [00:04:17] This is your celebration.
Russell Atkins [00:04:19] I hide it, if anything. My friends are always saying, let’s do something about it. But I never do.
Nina Gibans [00:04:27] So Cedar and Carnegie.
Russel Atkins [00:04:29] Yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:04:29] And continue. You went to school.
Russell Atkins [00:04:32] That’s the neighborhood. Well, we lived there for 20 years in that apartment. And I went to Giddings Elementary. What was the other question?
Nina Gibans [00:04:49] Junior high?
Russell Atkins [00:04:51] Oh, junior high. Yeah. Well, the old Central High started in there, and then they closed that, you know, and they. I have to think all this. Think back on this. They built the new one, a new Central High, which was on the 40th. And that’s where I ended up, you know. [crosstalk]
Nina Gibans [00:05:18] Central High has a very wonderful legacy.
Russell Atkins [00:05:24] Yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:05:24] Because isn’t that where Langston Hughes went?
Russell Atkins [00:05:27] Yeah, and they say Rockefeller. I think he went there, too.
Nina Gibans [00:05:31] Right. But my father did, too.
Russell Atkins [00:05:32] Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. Langston. Wait a minute. Did- Yeah, that’s where my friend Helen Collins, Helen Johnson Collins. She was a librarian at Main Library, and she knew him at Central, the old Central, and that’s how I met him.
Nina Gibans [00:05:52] You met him through the librarian or the Cleveland library or the branch?
Russell Atkins [00:05:54] Yeah, through the help I just met. No, I didn’t meet at the branch. We met at the Phillis Wheatley Folk Festival. Cool.
Nina Gibans [00:06:07] Okay, so that’s really the neighborhood center settlement house.
Russell Atkins [00:06:12] Well, the Phillis Wheatley has had a number of things, a number of places. It was then a kind of a hotel for older women, as they used to say, of color. [laughs] And then it became sort of, and probably still is involved in the community, social things under the Jane Hunter. You remember her?
Nina Gibans [00:06:52] Jane Hunter.
Russell Atkins [00:06:53] Yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:06:53] There’s a school named after her, a vocational school.
Russell Atkins [00:06:56] Yeah, Jane Hunter Vocational. And there’s some kind of a social organization, I think, on Euclid there. I don’t know whether it’s going to still standing or not.
Nina Gibans [00:07:07] That’s right. So the librarian at Phyllis Wheatley-
Russell Atkins [00:07:12] No, the librarian was at Cleveland Public Library.[crosstalk] That’s where she worked. And she- Langston would come back and forth to the Folk Festival. I think he came twice or so, and she was naturally one of the persons that he would contact for old time’s sake, you know.
Nina Gibans [00:07:39] All right, let me get her name again.
Russell Atkins [00:07:40] Helen Johnson Collins.
Nina Gibans [00:07:42] Helen Johnson Collins. And she was in the literature area?
Russell Atkins [00:07:49] Yeah. Mm hmm.
Nina Gibans [00:07:52] So Helen Johnson Collins. Ron Antonucci now has that position.
Russell Atkins [00:08:03] He does?
Nina Gibans [00:08:05] Yes. He just was made the head of the literature division.
Russell Atkins [00:08:08] Well, I’ll be!
Nina Gibans [00:08:09] Of the public library.
Russell Atkins [00:08:10] Because when Helen left, she went to several libraries after leaving. My memory is kind of slow these days. After she left the Cleveland Public Library, she went to- Where did she go? I think it was Quincy library. Yeah. And while she was there, though, Marie Corrigan was the head of the department, and there were a number of other librarians.
Nina Gibans [00:08:49] So is this the early thirties we’re talking about?
Russell Atkins [00:08:54] We’re talking about certainly forties. Is my gum sounding?
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:09:04] Yeah, a little.
Russell Atkins [00:09:05] Mmm. God.
Nina Gibans [00:09:06] I wondered. I wasn’t going to play teacher, but-
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:09:10] I didn’t know it was gum, actually. I just thought you were just like- You know how some people, like, smack their lips?
Russell Atkins [00:09:15] Yeah, it was gum. Wait a minute, I have a thing here. No, that’s the old devil gum. Now, where were we?
Nina Gibans [00:09:29] Okay, so we have established how you were put in contact with Langston?
Russell Atkins [00:09:37] Yeah, yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:09:39] Did you show her your work? Is that it?
Russell Atkins [00:09:42] Well, it would start. Helen founded Freelance Workshop in 1942. But it was just a workshop then, you know.
Nina Gibans [00:09:53] And that took place at the library?
Russell Atkins [00:09:55] No, it sort of took place at friends houses and things like that. Very local then. All of this intertwines it. Hard to separate it. Helen was also good friends with Loring Eugene Williams. You know him well, he was the editor of one of Cleveland’s earliest or earlier poetry magazines called American Weave.
Nina Gibans [00:10:28] American Weave.
Russell Atkins [00:10:29] Weave, yeah. And for a long time he-
Nina Gibans [00:10:35] And when would that have started?
Russell Atkins [00:10:38] Oh, good heavens, that- I don’t know.[laughs] It was very long back before I started it.
Nina Gibans [00:10:44] American Weave has poetry from Cleveland only.
Russell Atkins [00:10:48] No, that was a different thing about it. It published, I’m trying to think of- Who was that? Who were some of the names? I won’t tax my brain right now.
Nina Gibans [00:11:02] If you think of it.
Russell Atkins [00:11:03] That would be good. I can give you later.
Nina Gibans [00:11:06] So Loring was the editor?
Russell Atkins [00:11:09] Yeah. He was also head of the Ohio Poetry Society.
Nina Gibans [00:11:12] Okay, tell me about the Ohio Poetry Society.
Russell Atkins [00:11:15] It met in the basement of the Cleveland Public Library. And they used to- The auditorium was in the basement in those days. And like once a month, once a year, yeah, something like that. Yeah. I can’t be clear on that.
Nina Gibans [00:11:35] So we don’t know when that began.
Russell Atkins [00:11:37] I don’t know. Because it was way- Yeah, because they were.
Nina Gibans [00:11:42] So these are things that were going on around in Cleveland in poetry writing?
Russel Atkins [00:11:49] Yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:11:50] Were these poetry-only magazines or were they-
Russell Atkins [00:11:53] Well, wait, just one, American Weave. It’s the only one I’m talking about right now. I’m trying to think if there was another one. There’s Skyline. [crosstalk] Yeah, it met at the old- On the- On the square. Cleveland College on the square. And I know the man. One of the- I can’t remember his name exactly. Doctor Fredericks, I think. Did you ever hear of him? [crosstalk] I hope it’s Doctor Fredericks. I think his name was Fredericks. Yeah, he was the head of the society before Loring became- I just happen to remember, not only-
Nina Gibans [00:12:46] So Loring did not only American Weave, but he was head of the Ohio.
Russell Atkins [00:12:48] Ohio Poetry Society. Yeah, he took over, I guess I’m trying to figure out whether he took over after Fredericks or not. He may have. Yeah. He was the next. [crosstalk]
Nina Gibans [00:13:02] That’s the beginning of your activity.
Russell Atkins [00:13:04] Yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:13:05] How many poets were there in the group that you would meet with?
Russell Atkins [00:13:08] Well, these were, I hate to put it this way, but these were elegant ladies. Oh, yeah. There weren’t that many men in the group.
Nina Gibans [00:13:25] Were they serious about publishing?
Russell Atkins [00:13:27] Yeah, some of them published. I trying to think of their names.
Nina Gibans [00:13:33] Well, we’ll find these magazines.
Russell Atkins [00:13:37] I guess, Harper’s. One or two of them published in Harper’s and they-
Nina Gibans [00:13:47] Okay, we’ll find those. So don’t worry about that, but let’s proceed in your life as a poet, so you are nurtured in this way.
Russell Atkins [00:13:59] Yeah, it started out- Well, then. Ready? That’s it. We’re going? When Freelance, we decided to give up- This is not as consecutive as it should be. I mean, my memory is a bit shaky. You can understand a bit. I see that it slipped my mind what I was talking about.
Nina Gibans [00:14:33] Freelance and how you were being nurtured and launched and-
Russell Atkins [00:14:37] Yeah. Oh, yeah. Helen, I was- The group, the Freelance Workshop, we didn’t, we weren’t able to continue, so we were closing, closing down. But Helen said, let’s publish a little issue commemorating the fact that it existed. That was where I stepped in and became, by default, really the editor. I was appearing then in little magazines. Yeah. And-
Nina Gibans [00:15:23] When is the first of those magazines?
Russell Atkins [00:15:27] The first one I appeared in? Experiment Magazine. Yeah. It was 1951, ’50, ’51.
Nina Gibans [00:15:40] What about this Freelance? What is the date of that?
Russell Atkins [00:15:42] Well, the date of the closing of it, you mean?
Nina Gibans [00:15:44] The closing of the publication.
Russell Atkins [00:15:46] It’s kind of paradoxical because it was my suggestion that instead of closing it, we turn it into a magazine. And Helen agreed. So we got Loring Williams, who was editing his American Weave, after all those years, to publish the first issue printed out, really. It wasn’t published, but printed out. Yeah. And that was actually the first issue of Freelance. And that was 1950. We had delegated an editor, but he didn’t function, so they turned it over to me and I became the first editor of Freelance. And that wasn’t much better than the person that didn’t function. [laughs] I edited it for about two issues, I think. In the meantime, my friend I met, he was the head of Wilberforce Library at the time. And his name was Caspar Jordan. And he joined the group. And I’m trying to think who else at that time I think there were. Well, there were a lot of other names, but they weren’t really serious in the real sense of the word serious. There was- What was her name? See, [laughs] names is what has failed me. [crosstalk] But anyway, because he was a librarian, he just had certain, I should say, leverages that made him a better editor than I was. So he became the editor of Freelance on the side, although he didn’t particularly want it.
Nina Gibans [00:18:19] So he helped with that?
Russell Atkins [00:18:20] Yeah, he was helped then actually we began to- We began to- A lot of things I could say in here. We’re not following this, are we?
Nina Gibans [00:18:39] We’re not very far along yet, but we’ll get there.
Russell Atkins [00:18:46] He- Around that time, I met- Well, I was gradually getting acquainted with members of the Cleveland Orchestra, and Rebecca Chandler - Hyman Chandler’s [her] husband - and several other people, and my very close friend, who is still one of my very close friends, Martin Simon, a cellist, and his wife Adelaide Simon joined Freelance. Yeah, and so we became the nucleus of the new Freelance, you might say.
Nina Gibans [00:19:31] Is that Sutphen School of Music?
Russell Atkins [00:19:35] No, that’s another story. [laughs] Yeah. So Freelancer going with myself, Casper, Adelaide and Marduk kind of on the side because he was busier with the orchestra than he was with writing. He didn’t do that kind of writing. So now Sutphen, that of course dovetails, it’s later. Phillis Wheatley is the parent organization of Sutphen and although they didn’t like it, but- Well, Jane Hunter didn’t like it, let’s put it that way. And it was run by Mrs. Nell S. Gwyn. Nell Gwyn. And I’m trying to think now Sutphen was, was a part of that. But what happened, there’s so many people, the more I think of it, the more intertwined it gets. As I told you, I composed, I was composing by that time and I would go up there to work on my compositions and I’m getting a little ahead of myself but maybe we can come back to that. As I was around Phillis Wheatley, another lady who was teaching up there along with Nell Gwyn was Mrs. Gladys Tiff and she was, she was teaching music, opera and things like that and what is I trying to think about, Gladys? I’m ahead of myself though. Anyway, the school got to the Sutphen school got to the point where it needed somebody in the office and so I was generally considered to be the person with enough time most people said he doesn’t work. [laughs]
Nina Gibans [00:22:17] Were you writing also at this time?
Russell Atkins [00:22:18] Oh yeah, the poetry you mean? Oh, yes, very much so. It’s hard to separate these things because, you know, you don’t-
Nina Gibans [00:22:26] I want to ask about one thing, though, because you were going to the Cleveland Public Library.
Russell Atkins [00:22:32] Yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:22:34] You had to go downtown.
Russell Atkins [00:22:35] Yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:22:36] Tell me about Euclid Avenue.
Russell Atkins [00:22:39] Ah, Euclid Avenue. [laughs] Well, much simpler than it is now. What can I say about it? Well, was it much different than what it was only a few months ago.
Nina Gibans [00:22:57] In your memory?
Russell Atkins [00:22:58] In my memory, this is in the fifties and forties. Yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:23:02] You just pass through to go to the library?
Russell Atkins [00:23:04] I just passed through to go most of the places. Yeah, right.
Nina Gibans [00:23:08] Are there any buildings that you especially admired or remembered or went to?
Russell Atkins [00:23:16] Only the Institute. I went there a short while, but that’s getting ahead of myself.
Nina Gibans [00:23:21] The Institute of Music?
Russell Atkins [00:23:22] Yeah. On 36th? Yeah, that’s right.
Nina Gibans [00:23:24] And it belongs at CSU now. It’s the Mather Mansion.
Russell Atkins [00:23:29] Well, wait, wait a minute. The Mather Mansion is- Now, this was another mansion, 36th.
Nina Gibans [00:23:41] On what? 36th?
Russell Atkins [00:23:42] Yeah, because it was a dark, built out of darker stone, but Mather Mansion is kind of lighter colored stone.
Nina Gibans [00:23:55] Mather Mansion is at 36th Street?
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:23:59] It’s farther down.
Nina Gibans [00:25:01] It is further toward 40th but-
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:24:05] I don’t know the exact location.
Nina Gibans [00:24:07] Okay. I went to the Institute of Music, too, for Dalcroze.
Russell Atkins [00:24:11] Yeah, that’s right.
Nina Gibans [00:24:13] They had Dalcroze and they had all of that. And then it became the AAA building.
Russel Atkins [00:24:17] Yeah, that was before CSU.
Nina Gibans [00:24:20] Right. And then it became CSU’s- [crosstalk]
Russell Atkins [00:24:24] No, the-
Nina Gibans [00:24:26] The Mather Mansion.
Russell Atkins [00:24:27] Yeah, well, they gave things, you know. [crosstalk] Poetry.
Nina Gibans [00:24:29] But they held conferences there and used it for the public.
Russell Atkins [00:24:33] Yeah, poetry groups.
Nina Gibans [00:24:35] That was in the ’70s, that part.
Russell Atkins [00:24:37] That part, yeah. But way back there, when I went to the Institute, that was on 36th, and that was during the age. During the age of - in music, at least, this might designate it - Rubenstein, Bernstein-
Nina Gibans [00:25:02] Beryl Rubinstein?
Russell Atkins [00:25:04] Yeah. And who else? Ward Lewis. And I had my teacher, [laughs] another name, if I could get his name straight now. I remember it and then I forget it. And so he was- He wasn’t Doctor then. He was-
Nina Gibans [00:25:34] A composition teacher?
Russell Atkins [00:25:37] Yeah. And theory.
Nina Gibans [00:25:39] Shepard?
Russell Atkins [00:25:39] No, not Arthur Shepard. No, uh-uh. You’d know his name if I mentioned it.
Nina Gibans [00:25:44] Arthur Lester?
Russell Atkins [00:25:46] Well, I knew Lester, but I never studied with him. No. Uh-uh. But what is his name? Well-
Nina Gibans [00:25:55] Alright, so you studied theory there, and you went maybe once a week?
Russell Atkins [00:25:59] Yeah. Uh-huh.
Nina Gibans [00:26:01] Alright, so you took the streetcar?
Russell Atkins [00:26:04] Streetcar? Oh, no, I think it was still bus. Or was it? [laughs] You can see that I’m not the best person to remember these things.
Nina Gibans [00:26:14] But you did it, and no one else did it- [crosstalk]
Russell Atkins [00:26:22] Streetcars? Streetcar was gone by then, wasn’t it? You mean the trolley?
Nina Gibans [00:26:30] The streetcar went in the forties, fifties?
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:26:31] Probably forties, fifties.
Russell Atkins [00:26:34] Fifties?
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:26:35] No, it was over by then.
Russell Atkins [00:26:37] Yeah. So I rode- When you went to Euclid, you thought of- In the thirties, you thought of the trolley, but they were gradually getting rid of that. The buses were taking over. And by the forties, I think that the buses had pretty much dominated. Yeah. But then I was younger. And when you’re young, you’re not always attentive. [laughs]
Nina Gibans [00:27:09] That’s right.
Russell Atkins [00:27:10] Yeah. I’m trying to think.
Nina Gibans [00:27:13] So you went to the Cleveland Institute of Music. Do you want to say anything more about that, that in your life, meaning, was that a bright spot in your life and traveling there and who went there? Were there a lot of minority students then?
Russell Atkins [00:27:28] No, no, it was- There were some, but not many. It was known- That part of town wasn’t known, I don’t think, that much for minorities. But what did I mention? I mentioned-
Nina Gibans [00:27:50] Well, we were talking about your composition.
Russell Atkins [00:27:52] Yeah, well, Elwell was around there. Yeah. Herbert Elwell. That’s right. And I think Maxendick was, had started.
Nina Gibans [00:28:08] So these are wonderful people that you studied with?
Russell Atkins [00:28:12] No, I didn’t study with them, but they were there at the Institute when I was there. But I’m trying to think of the name of the teacher. Well, Martin would remember, but I got it at home. I might have it in here somewhere.
Nina Gibans [00:28:27] Martin?
Russell Atkins [00:28:29] No, Martin Simon, the one I said he might know the title of that teacher because it was his teacher, too. [crosstalk] No, it’s not in here. No, I thought I might have brought it. But I don’t know what this is. Well, anyway, the ones I studied with, Ward Lewis was one, and my teacher, whatever his name was, was the other one. It may come to me. That’s how it’s happening. [laughs] I think of this memory thing as being like a file clerk and you want a name, but you have to wait until that- [laughs] [crosstalk] Yeah. And then an hour later, or maybe at night, it comes to you. [laughs]
Nina Gibans [00:29:29] That’s okay. Let’s talk about the writing.
Russell Atkins [00:29:33] Yeah, okay. Well, it all kind of- I was doing all- I was doing a number of things. I hadn’t made up my mind whether I was going to go into poetry or whether- Going into poetry. I don’t want to sound like it’s a profession or anything, but- Or whether I wanted to take up music. There were tendencies toward popular music or whether classical music. But after I met the orchestra members and all, I sort of veered into the classical. So, in the meantime, it was in the forties that I joined the- Or didn’t join, but managed to, shall I say, impress or whatever you want, to the avant-garde group that had just come over here from Europe.
Nina Gibans [00:30:39] We’re talking about writers now?
Russell Atkins [00:30:41] Writers. Yeah, right. And I brought you some of that information. That was ’47. And the magazine that published me first was View.
Nina Gibans [00:30:57] Alright. Would you like to read your poem from here?
Russell Atkins [00:30:59] Not that one.
Nina Gibans [00:31:00] No, not that one?
Russell Atkins [00:31:01] We don’t want to read.
Nina Gibans [00:31:01] But here we have View.
Russell Atkins [00:31:03] No, that’s not. You said me. No, no. You know. Wait a minute. Where’s the page with me? There I am.
Nina Gibans [00:31:13] There you are.
Russell Atkins [00:31:14] Yeah. It was a magazine that was absolutely the very last word in celebrity. I fell into it quite by accident. And I always say that I started at the top and then went down. [laughs]
Nina Gibans [00:31:36] Well, let’s have that story, though.
Russell Atkins [00:31:37] But I was, as you’ll see in there, I was stunned when I got it. It was with Picasso on one page and [inaudible] you see on another one. And everybody you can think of was in there. I also at that time continued writing because Marianne Moore and I became friends. Let’s see.
Nina Gibans [00:32:02] Marianne Moore?
Russell Atkins [00:32:03] Yeah, she introduced me to the Beloit Poetry Journal. That was in the fifties. I guess the date is on there. And we corresponded for the next ten years. Let’s see. I got so much stuff. I guess that’s it. But here’s one of her letters that we- I turned those letters over to Wilberforce University.
Nina Gibans [00:32:42] Letters from Marianne Moore from 1950. That’s wonderful.
Russell Atkins [00:32:47] Yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:32:48] I mean, you must have felt absolutely great.
Russell Atkins [00:32:50] Well, I felt very elated about that, but I had an influx of-
Nina Gibans [00:32:59] So was she saying things like this publication View and so forth? Is that how she got to know?
Russell Atkins [00:33:08] She knew I appeared in View because I told her. But then I had another friend with Experiment. I mentioned Experiment. This isn’t going to be as coherent as I thought it would be, [laughs] but at Experiment, she was the head of a group on the coast. See, that was the trouble with early Cleveland. You didn’t have a feeling of contact with any outside group, really, and so on. And-
Nina Gibans [00:33:46] Were you, as far as that was concerned, in contact with the outer world of poetry?
Russell Atkins [00:33:54] Only through Freelance, which was a deliberate effort on our part to do that. And certain people- There was a little magazine at the time called Trace, you remember that. And it sort of became the- What do you call it? The Bible of a little magazine. And it sort of helped to connect everything, you know, James Boyle May was the editor and he would list magazines all around the country and he’d put out Trace and you’d see the name of your magazine and what the magazine had been doing and so on, or what’s going to do and so on and that helped pull things together a little over in the fifties. It was very useful because little magazines, in Cleveland at least, a lot of people didn’t even know about a little magazine. We asked for some money to put it out and they’d look at you say, Little magazine? That was unheard of to some people. And I remember what was his name used to have the bookstore on the corner of 9th, the Levine’s, I think they- [crosstalk] Yeah, Publix, that time I heard him give a talk in which he was told the audience that this was the early fifties, you were still not considered published unless you had a hardback book, that the paperbacks were still looked down on. Of course that changed very soon afterwards, you know, and-
Nina Gibans [00:35:40] Was Bob Levine not helpful?
Russell Atkins [00:35:45] Not really helpful. We didn’t go to him for help. He was just someone that- But they say he was helpful generally, kind of, but he didn’t help us particularly. Who else was there that was functioning? I’m trying to think of another name. Mm, well.
Nina Gibans [00:36:11] Well, did you meet other writers anywhere on Euclid Avenue or near Euclid Avenue or what?
Russell Atkins [00:36:21] Very seldom. That was one of the things that you felt. You just didn’t feel that there was- Poets were passing through town, they were up at Reserve but they didn’t seem to come into the town proper, and so we never had a chance to meet.
Nina Gibans [00:36:41] Did you do any early readings in town?
Russell Atkins [00:36:44] With Freelance, we did early readings but it was- They weren’t- They weren’t very well advertised or coordinated even. St. James AME Church had a, what they call a St. James Poetry Forum. That’s at 83rd or 84th and Cedar.
Nina Gibans [00:37:26] What about Karamu in all of this?
Russell Atkins [00:37:28] Well, Karamu was functioning, but in the early days you went there off and on. But I had such a stormy relationship with the Jelliffes. They didn’t care for me for some reason. Mrs. Jelliffe was cordial, but Mr. Jelliffe, he was not.
Nina Gibans [00:37:54] What about Laukhuff’s bookstore? [Hermine Laukhuff] Do you remember that bookstore? Because they spent a lot of time there. [crosstalk] Laukhuff’s. And artists and writers would meet there [crosstalk] No, it was on Euclid Avenue.
Russell Atkins [00:38:12] Oh. The only one on Euclid Avenue was in the Arcade. Keisogloff [Peter Keisogloff]. He was coming up. Keisogloff, yeah, he stopped Freelance.
Nina Gibans [00:38:24] Did you?
Russell Atkins [00:38:26] He stopped it, yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:38:28] Was he the only one in town?
Russell Atkins [00:38:31] Yeah, about. Well, I can remember. Keisogloff.
Nina Gibans [00:38:35] in the old Arcade?
Russell Atkins [00:38:36] In the old Arcade, yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:38:37] Did you used to go to the old Arcade?
Russell Atkins [00:38:38] Yeah. Well, going to the public library because you know, you’d go through-
Nina Gibans [00:38:44] You’d go through the old Arcade.
Russell Atkins [00:38:45] Yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:38:46] Did that become your favorite route?
Russell Atkins [00:38:49] Yeah. It became the only one because, you know, you get off the bus, you go through the- Now, wait, let me get these arcades straight here because they were right together, you know. You’d go to the one off of 4th. That was the Colonnade? [crosstalk]
Nina Gibans [00:39:07] That was the Colonnade? [crosstalk] Colonial Arcade.
Russell Atkins [00:39:11] Colonial Arcade. That’s right. And then you’d come out on Euclid. And right across was the old Arcade. I think that’s the way it was. Then you go through the old Arcade and go down the stairs and across. And when you get to, what’s the street, Superior, there was the library.
Nina Gibans [00:39:34] So you took inner routes to get to the Cleveland Public Library.
Russell Atkins [00:39:39] Well, it’s a kind of straight line, actually.
Nina Gibans [00:39:41] Yeah, it was a straight line, I know that. But the Arcade is so special. Was there- Talk about it a little bit.
Russell Atkins [00:39:49] Well, it had a very unusual effect on you. It was so busy. In those days downtown was a busy place and there were all kinds of stores. You felt like you were entering a- What do they call them now? There I go losing the name again. What’s the name, the big things? Malls. The mall. It sort of had the impression of the mall before the day of the mall.
Nina Gibans [00:40:26] Right. We didn’t use those terms then.
Russell Atkins [00:40:28] No. But you had the feeling that-
Nina Gibans [00:40:32] There was Higbee’s.
Russell Atkins [00:40:34] Well, no, Higbee’s was- [crosstalk] No, wait a minute. Go to the library. Higbee’s was on the corner of where the Terminal is. Yeah. Yeah. And don’t you think in those days, it was a totally different downtown one that my friends and I, we very often rehash when you think of all the stores. Actually, I know more about Prospect in those streets than I do about Euclid. Because much of what was done you did by going to, as you say, Higbee’s and Bailey’s and Taylor’s and, of course, Halle’s, further down. So you had a lot of activity there. But much of it didn’t really affect me, because as a younger person, sort of getting [laughs] a sort of grasp of things.
Nina Gibans [00:41:45] What did your parents do?
Russell Atkins [00:41:49] Parents? You mean my uncle and aunt? [crosstalk] My mother lived alone, more or less. I stayed with- We’re getting ahead of ourselves, but I stayed with her sometimes and stayed with my uncle and aunt most of the time.
Nina Gibans [00:42:10] I see. So when you were going to Central?
Russell Atkins [00:42:12] Yeah, yeah. Let’s see, where are we now in all of this?
Nina Gibans [00:42:18] Well, what I’d like to spend a few minutes doing is reading a couple of your favorite poems.
Russell Atkins [00:42:24] I don’t have many favorites, no.
Nina Gibans [00:42:26] Let’s try something from the first CSU book if you want.
Russell Atkins [00:42:30] [Laughs] I showed you. I think it was your show this years ago. The group that was behind View, the one, the magazine I was in. And there was Edith Sitwell and Sacheverell. And there’s Henry Ford. He was the head. He’s the founder of it. Yeah. He was the one that published me first. Yeah. Yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:42:52] This is a terrific photo.
Russell Atkins [00:42:54] Yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:42:54] Are you gonna let me scan this?
Russell Atkins [00:42:57] What do you mean? Keep it, you mean?
Nina Gibans [00:42:58] Keep it for a little bit? I studied with Horace Gregory.
Russell Atkins [00:43:05] Oh, yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:43:07] He’s in there.
Russell Atkins [00:43:07] Yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:43:08] Yes. You know, he had cerebral palsy so badly. He was wonderful, though.
Russell Atkins [00:43:14] Yeah. Well, I- This really- According to what’s his name? Henry Ford. Charles Henri Ford. He didn’t like you to say Henry. Yeah. He claimed to have organized this meeting at Gotham Bookmark. Yeah.
Nina Gibans [00:43:37] Okay, back to the poetry for a minute.
Russell Atkins [00:43:41] Now, what do you-
Nina Gibans [00:43:43] I would love it if you would read a couple of the poems that you would like to.
Russell Atkins [00:43:48] Well. [crosstalk] I didn’t know that was in there.
Nina Gibans [00:43:51] And tell me one other thing. Is there a poem of Langston’s that you especially admire?
Russell Atkins [00:43:59] Well, I was so busy getting his admiration of my poetry that I guess I didn’t think of- This is a thing from Langston, the postcard. He corresponded with postcards. And this is a review where he made a book. That’s a terrible postage stamp, but- Well, let’s see. I adopted, or am considered to be the-
Nina Gibans [00:44:45] I know you’re getting this down, but.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:44:47] Yeah. Well, as soon as you find it, then.
Nina Gibans [00:44:50] Ok.
Russell Atkins [00:44:51] Whenever you’re going to read.
Nina Gibans [00:44:52] Ok. Right.
Russell Atkins [00:44:53] Ok. Did I make too much noise?
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:44:56] No. No. I mean this. You weren’t saying anything.
Nina Gibans [00:45:01] You’re just like, when you find the poem you want to read, then she’ll put on the machine again.
Russell Atkins [00:45:09] I developed a kind of a word twisting technique, I call it. It has caused a little controversy, but not enough to mean anything. I guess I’ll read this about finding money. I suppose you have seen this biographical thing.
Nina Gibans [00:45:40] Yeah, we’ll get back. We’ll get into that. It’s more important for you to read your poem.
Russell Atkins [00:45:50] Oh, okay. There might be one I like here. Well, I suppose I- Well, no, we’ll try this one first. This is called “Finding Money.” Oh, let’s try that.
Emma Yanoshik-Wing [00:46:23] Do you want me to move the microphone?
Russell Atkins [00:46:26] I think I can handle it. This way. Is it okay?
Nina Gibans [00:46:34] “Finding Money.”
Russell Atkins [00:46:35] Finding money. A day went dangerous by it as if of imped a gleam with that which elves a dime as flatter midst. That is middle of street Broadway’s traffic. Not like a penny, it’s sad, the dime’s might, but a big varying its lure when out of sent a vast Shell Oil truck as I stooped to grab the true gift. Some days ago jeopardized by money as to snare on the rapid tracks, a dollar urchined a flutter of gifts too free my askance was both ways was wise but what appear loomed moving its fast monstrous out of nowhere and diesel by. Money lusters its imperil in grocery store parking lots a quarter or 50 cents, a gift too free again for a car. A car as if a hit skip blundered as I approach their sheen. Some days go by in a hazard as a nickel on steps that transit or wheels roll ominous. Were you waiting, therefore, when two free gifts and dimes flutter and dollars wave and 50 cents aglows with lure and nickel’s sprite. [laughs]
Nina Gibans [00:48:18] Wonderful.
Russell Atkins [00:48:19] No. Well, I don’t know. Well, a lot of people question my- I call it the technique of word distortion. Word distortion, in which you play around with the connotations and the connotations and denotations. You substitute one for the other.[laughs] It led to some interesting verbal-
Nina Gibans [00:48:45] Interaction.
Russell Atkins [00:48:46] Yeah, some people don’t like it, but then you can, you know, don’t worry about that. Now. Let’s see. Maybe you’d like to- These are all more- “Magic Gardens.” They go down, air out of automobile tires, sprung leaks, like a top hat up, sat down on squashed to flat, accordions groaning down wash merely fabric and shrinking. Or like love’s silk stockings, a run in the sheer dream. He’d lived all in the hope that things could keep their enchantment. He had been watching, listening for any sound of what goes wrong, to search diligently for the reason, the fading of substance. For such portents, usually, he had a good ear.
Nina Gibans [00:50:03] There’s- May I ask you to read one that I think might have started on Euclid Avenue?
Russell Atkins [00:50:09] Oh, you think that? Oh, it’s here and there. Yeah. I didn’t know that was in here. [laughs]
Nina Gibans [00:50:21] We all keep things differently, don’t we?
Russell Atkins [00:50:24] It’s here in the newspaper wreck of the eastbound, a photograph bound to bring on cardiac asthenia. There’s a blur that mists the pages. On one side’s a gloom of dreadful heart. Then breaks, flash lights up sheer. There is much hue about, I suppose those I knows are people between the suffering of, what have we more for Christ’s sake? Something of a full stop of it, crash of blood and the still shock of stark sticks and an immense swift gauze and two dead mules lie aghast still. One casts a crazed eye and the other is closed, dull. The heat twists up, hardening the unhard. Unhardening the hardened. [laughs] I didn’t read that as well as I usually do.
Nina Gibans [00:51:14] Wonderful.
Russell Atkins [00:51:15] Now, the thing of this was sort of an experiment with where you substitute one sense for another, you know.
Nina Gibans [00:51:27] Right. But you’re all- But don’t you think poets play with words?
Russell Atkins [00:51:31] Well, I hope they do. [laughs][crosstalk]
Nina Gibans [00:51:36] I love your water words. Your words about the lake.
Russell Adtins [00:51:40] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I don’t know whether I continue to like them or not. I like some new ones.
Nina Gibans [00:51:47] I have any that you brought, you want to read?
Russell Atkins [00:51:51] No, no, those were enough. I see I didn’t bring one that I did want to read, but I don’t-
Nina Gibans [00:52:00] What was the name of that?
Russell Atkins [00:52:02] It was. These are a group of poems I wrote against parasitism, which haunts me in terms of nature, you know. And the eating of- This was at Karamu one time, and they gave a sort of a banquet there, and they brought me, served me a plate- [laughs] It wasn’t lobster. It was one of, what is it, crayfish or crawfish? Which is it? You know, it looks very much like a live animal. And I got a sudden revulsion for animals on the plate that looked like themselves, you know. But that led to mixed up ideas because most of us eat animals, other animals. And so you can’t say, I’m not going to do it because you sound hypocritical, because people know you’re eating them. They get torn in between the two things.
Nina Gibans [00:53:24] Right. Your moral values and ecological values and-
Russell Atkins [00:53:30] Yeah, don’t worry about that.
Nina Gibans [00:53:32] And all of that gets all mixed up. I wanted to ask you if you had a sentence or two about how you would characterize anybody’s influence on you and then your relationship with Langston. Because, you know, in Cleveland’s history, Langston stands.
Russell Atkins [00:53:59] Yeah, he- Yeah, well, yeah, I- In fact, although he was absolutely, totally- I was totally dependent on him, you know, for a long time there. I still feel that a society needs more than just one poet. There should be others, you know. And when I think of all the poets that have been writing since the so-called Black Arts Movement, and you hardly ever hear them mentioned. You know. So it’s kind of one-sided. But that doesn’t mean that Langston wasn’t behind most of it, you know, I mean, he was a big influence. But now, what did you ask me about him?
Nina Gibans [00:54:53] Well, characterize your relationship with him.
Russell Atkins [00:54:56] Yeah. Well, I should have- I don’t know why I didn’t bring the letter where he-
Nina Gibans [00:55:02] Yes, you did bring- Here it is.
Russell Atkins [00:55:04] No, that isn’t the one where he states- States the relation. Mm. Hmm. Well, I guess I don’t have that poem. I meant to bring that.
Nina Gibans [00:55:25] What did he say that was wonderful?
Russell Atkins [00:55:27] What did he say that- Oh, he said a lot of things in the letters that were, you know.
Nina Gibans [00:55:32] So he kept-
Russell Atkins [00:55:33] But he was always objective. He never told you that what he was doing was right and you were wrong. He always accepted what you were doing. It was what you were trying to do. Yeah. And that was one- That was a very good.
Nina Gibans [00:55:52] Were there other poets in Cleveland that he had-
Russell Atkins [00:55:56] Helen Collins, Helen Johnson Collins. Yeah, she- Yeah, let’s see. Who else in Cleveland? Was there anybody else in Cleveland? I think he regarded me in Freelance and Helen as the chief center of activity, including in relation to him. I don’t know who else was around, but I know he was very, how should I say, generous to Freelance. Right.
Nina Gibans [00:56:48] And do you characterize that period as your most active? The fifties, sixties?
Russell Atkins [00:56:54] Actually. That was my- Yeah, right. Fifties, sixties, and parts of the seventies. But certain new phenomena came on the scene in the person of- Well, I always divided. I would say that in the early fifties there was conservatism. They thought there was, even though some people have questioned that. Then the mid-fifties came, the Beatnik movement. The Beat movement. And that turned into the Hippie movement. [laughs] Amazing when I think of it now. And then some of that changed into under the action of a poet named Leroy Jones. Who is now known as Amiri Baraka. He started the Black Arts Movement. And that metamorphosized into a- [crosstalk] The Black Arts Movement.
Nina Gibans [00:58:17] In other words, in a sense, Cleveland’s Beat movement was d.a. levy.
Russell Atkins [00:58:22] Yeah, but I thought we were going to get to levy later. Actually, this is a point I’m going to make. d. a. levy was a product of Freelance. I’ll tell you how that happened. There was a poet who was very influential on Cleveland’s scene in the late sixties and seventies. His name was Joe Valera. Did you ever hear of him? He was very ambitious. And he was right off of the New York scene. Till he said he was one of the Beatniks he brought. There was another poet whose name now escaped me. But he was good friends with him. But evidently Joe and Lev. I’m sorry I called him Lev. They lived evidently close on the west side. So Joe brought Levy to a Freelance meeting. Levy was about 20. About 20, or was 20 or 21. And we cast for Adelaide, Simon and myself and so on. We were in our forties, I think. I don’t know our exact age relationships. But I knew I was close to the forties. Anyway, Lev came as a painter. He did a lot of painting, and Adelaide was very impressed with his painting, and he wasn’t writing that much, although he had written some poems, some books that he had published. But when the movements of the seventies and the eighties, well sixties and seventies built up, he decided Freelance wasn’t. We weren’t active enough. So he dropped us and went off on his own, and he became the, what would we call him? The icon of the young kid.
Nina Gibans [01:00:53] I was going to use the word icon, too, the icon of that era.
Russell Atkins [01:00:59] And then, of course, that was partly aided by Jim Lowell, who died recently, who had the bookshop.
Nina Gibans [01:01:15] All right, well, what have we forgotten? That’s terribly, terribly important?
Russel; Atkins [01:01:22] I don’t really, no, [laughs] I’m trying to figure out what is important in writing. You have to all be well. One important thing is to say, to tell people, if you want to say anything, summation about me, I’ve been at it now for 56 years. I think that’s a pretty long time. Actually, it’s more than that because it had the three late forties years. So that’s important to me. That’s important. Now, where were we?
Nina Gibans [01:02:03] That’s what I wanted you to summarize. What you thought was important or that we had not talked about that you think-
Russell Atkins [01:02:11] Well, so many things changed.
Nina Gibans [01:02:16] Russell, we may come back to you after you’ve had some thought about other things, or the group has had some other questions for you. Is that a good idea?
Russell Atkins [01:02:30] Well, I guess so. Just so it isn’t too soon. [laughs]
Nina Gibans [01:02:39] The projects are all going to take time, specifically. I mean, that little bit about the arcade is just exactly what we want about Euclid Avenue. You had thoughts as you passed buildings. People have talked about the Christmas trees at Lindner and that whole scene, or they’ve talked about the movies at Playhouse Square, or our little discussion about dance at the Institute of Music is one of those things. But if you go further up Euclid Avenue and turn the other way toward University Circle, there’s the whole 105th Street area.
Russell Atkins [01:03:20] Yeah. Well, I have a few words I might say about that. I grew up kind of in the museum and- Yeah, I was sort of the, I don’t want to say pet or anything like that, acquaintance with Louise Dunn. Did you know her? Louise Dunn? She was the puppeteer, very famous puppeteer. Yeah. And what’s his name? God, I don’t know. He was the head of the department of education. Curator Thomas Monroe. That’s it.
Nina Gibans [01:04:06] Yeah, Thomas Monroe. I was his last graduate student.
Russell Atkins [01:04:10] Really? Yeah. Well, we became acquainted when I was at the museum. And between Monroe and Louise Dunn and so on, I got the scholarship to the Cleveland School of Art. And that’s how that happened. And so I was. And also something Edith Sitwell gave a reading, a poetry reading there in the fifties, late forties or early fifties. Charles Henry Ford said that he was responsible for that. But anyway, I was at the reading, but I’ve never heard anybody mention it since. I guess some people were a bit outraged at her extraordinary behavior. But anyway, the museum, I don’t know. I’ve never gotten used to the alterations, the alterations in the museum. Since I grew up in certain things, I expect to see them, and it throws me off when I go there.
Nina Gibans [01:05:29] I taught there for 40 years. Yes, I used to take capital classes there. I never would go to anything except the Museum of Art with them. And so they could learn the humanities through the works of art. So what was your favorite piece?
Russell Atkins [01:05:47] Well, my favorite room, of course, as a younger kid, was the armor court, but I had a favorite room off of the- And this is what gets me sometimes. I haven’t been into the place since they arrived.
Nina Gibans [01:06:04] Well, you won’t recognize.
Russell Atkins [01:06:05] I wouldn’t recognize. No, I didn’t recognize it when I went finally, and I guess when they finished with it this time, [crosstalk] I won’t go back again.[laughs] But anyway, there was a little room, a medieval room with kind of 15th, 16th century paintings in them. It was a very moody room. [crosstalk] No, the older style paintings, you know, and the light. The light, yeah, medieval. And it was. The light streamed into that room in a sort of a way that gave a very unique feeling.
Nina Gibans [01:06:50] Is that the one with the stone and the tapestries? It would be a stone.
Russell Atkins [01:06:59] No, they didn’t have the big tapestries in that room, but they were mainly medieval paintings. But that’s the kind of thing that I miss, you know, I can’t fully remember it. And when I did finally go into the museum, I couldn’t find the room I couldn’t find because they changed it so much, you know.
Nina Gibans [01:07:28] So as you went on that part of Euclid Avenue, is there anything memorable? Wade Park or-
Russell Atkins [01:07:36] Oh, I wrote a poem about Wade Park. Yeah, Wade Park was- Yes, a lot of us visited Wade Park. It was such a beautiful place. Still is.
Nina Gibans [01:07:50] Did you do any writing outside when you were. Did you use the green spaces, like the Eastman Garden for writing or at the library or?
Russell Atkins [01:08:01] No, I didn’t use that. I don’t know that they did. They have. How long ago? Did the Eastman.
Nina Gibans [01:08:07] Oh, a long time.
Russell Atkins [01:08:08] It’s been there a long time because I recently, before my friend Catherine died, he said that Marilyn Mason was going to close these rooms, but she didn’t.
Nina Gibans [01:08:22] It’s still there, believe me.
Russell Atkins [01:08:23] I kind of objected to that, too. I didn’t use it, but I wanted it there. Scott’s familiar, that’s all.
Nina Gibans [01:08:39] So Paul Travis and the Institute of Art. But that was not what really took hold.
Russell Atkins [01:08:45] Paul Travis? Yeah. And the Institute of. You’re talking of the Cleveland Institute of Art. Well, no, I was there before. They changed in two. Yeah, they were the Cleveland School of Art. Then they changed into the Institute. Yeah. And. Oh, Milton Fox was my teacher.
Nina Gibans [01:09:12] He went on to publish?
Russell Atkins[01:09:16] I lost track because I was too young to keep up with things. But he became very famous for something in the war, didn’t he? Wasn’t it camouflage? Yeah. Yeah, but he was quite an influence on me. We’d have the lessons. I’m trying to think Tuesdays and Saturdays. I think there were. Then they changed something. And he was always very friendly. He was partly responsible for my deciding to write, or attempt to write, symphonic music, because he would very often have the kids have us, rather might paint, too. Music. Yeah.
Nina Gibans [01:10:20] So what I’m going to ask you to do, we’re going to close today’s session, but I’m going to ask you to think about now, anything else that you want to talk about, and we’ll do another session sometime. Not soon, but I am so pleased we did this.
Russell Atkins [01:10:42] Well, I don’t know that I-
Nina Gibans [01:10:45] And your thoughts don’t come together that way, but- [crosstalk] [recording ends]
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